The literal meaning of Tuite?
MH
me with the literal translation of the word tuite? and while we are at
it, of Tode?
TIA.
Martin H
-----------------------
Criticism of my command of the english language, its spelling and
grammar will be accepted....
IF it is presented to me in letter perfect, grammatically correct
swedish.
tenzenryu
characters were later pronounced in an alternative ways as Karate to mean
empty hand emphasing the Zen aspects of practice and being less offensive to
the pre war Japanese who were antagonistic to the Chinese.
Tuite is a separate martial art from Karate known variously as Motobu-ryu,
Tuite, Ti, Uchinan Di, Goten Te, and confusingly Okinawa Te (which is also
another name for Karate). It is related to the Japanese mainland phrase
Torite which means releasing hands and indicates the grappling nature of the
style which looks like a cross between western boxing, chinna and aikido
with a bit of Tai Chi thrown in for good measure.
Richard
MH wrote in message <3756F17D...@swipnet.se>...
Scott C. Milach
Since you asked for a "literal translation of the word" I'll keep my
answer brief.
Tuite is most often translated as either "taking hand", "releasing hand" or
even "taking and releasing hand"!
Tode is an earlier Okinawan term for what most Okinawans would now call
"karate".
MH <martinh...@swipnet.se> wrote in message
news:3756F17D...@swipnet.se...
James Wilkinson
Japanese arts is commendable. I read other replies to your query and found
them interesting. The only reason I really monitor this newsgroup is for
new insights, etc. Occasionally I cannot resist the urge to reply as well.
I too delved into other Japanese oriented subjects due to my fascination w/
Karate. In fact I ended up getting a degree in Nihongo (Japanese) and have
lived and trained in Japan. First, Japanese is composed of syllables called
mora and w/ a few exceptions is composed of a consonant and vowel, in that
order. In the case of sounds starting with "T" it goes: ta, chi, tsu, te,
to. The reason I go this far into depth is because there is no "tu." This
does not mean the word you asked about does not exist. What it does mean is
that it either was translated before the Meiji Restoration-which is not the
case because Gichin Funakoshi did not travel to Japan until after the turn
of the 20th century (1900) or its pronunciation has been lost-at least to
your source. The later is very likely since non-Japanese Karateka are not
exactly known for their Japanese language abilities. If I had to venture a
guess with this little context, I would say it comes from the transitive
verb tsuku, which when put into "te-form" would change to tsuite. This has
a variety of meanings which is purely academic at this point. What does
your teacher say? That is what is important anyway. The concept, not the
word. For example, zanshin. It can literally mean: new, novel or
awareness. I have been taught over the years that the concept is constant
awareness. To always be aware of your surroundings, etc.
I apologize for jumping on the soapbox, but I've known a lot of martial
artists over the years who know little other than some bad archaic Japanese
commands. Another example is "Osu." There is a small controversy as to
exactly what this means. Say it to a Japanese person, they get a real kick
out of it. I've been to dojo's in Japan where it is said every other
sentence, and others where it is considered rude. The most common
explanation that I've received is that it is a shortened version of Ohaiyo
gozaimasu, or good morning. Anyway, again it doesn't really matter because
the concept is still there. Keep asking, ...
James
MH wrote in message <3756F17D...@swipnet.se>...
Steve Grayston
James Wilkinson wrote:
James,
Dozo Yoroshiku. I commend your understanding of Nihongo (Jozu ne). Please
excuse the Romanji, but I don't have a Japanese Language Kit (not at their
prices - anyway).
I draw attention to the fact that the word Tuite is commonly used on Okinawa
and may way be Hogen (native BEN), as this seems to be the answer I get from
several Okinawan masters - although - again they are Karate and Kobudo masters
- not language teachers…
The usage of "osu" I agree with - the Wado normally find it offensive where in
some schools it is uttered with every breath! I believe it is the plain form to
Oshi Shinobu (push ahead, press on).
And, as a final - I agree that it is what an individual's teacher says that is
important, for that is the path you are following.
Steve
Scott C. Milach
I certainly don't have anything near your depth or breadth of knowledge
of the modern Japanese language or culture. However, "tuite" just like
"muchimi" or "chinkuchi kakin" is an Okinawan term (my apologies to those
who romanize these terms differently!). Your analysis and contribution on
the subject were obviously well intended, but were applied to the wrong
language. My Japanese is not of sufficient caliber to speak with authority,
but I have always heard that the Japanese term equivalent to "tuite" is
"torite".
Scott
James Wilkinson <niet...@the-beach.net> wrote in message
news:92863671...@news.remarQ.com...
James Wilkinson
I have only been to Okinawa a couple times and haven't picked up any
local ben. Not withstanding that one barely has to speak Japanese there. I
hadn't considered that it may be some sort of local dialect. Thanks for the
thought. I really just thought that the author of the original message had
misspelled the word and was trying to get the meaning out of him. Then the
word in question is only a matter of conjugation. I also wanted to say that
I trust your knowledge is genuine. I hadn't mentioned any particular styles
in regards to Osu and you knew the primary culprit I referred to. Anyway,
thanks again. Peace.
MH
>
> Martin:
>
> Since you asked for a "literal translation of the word" I'll keep my
> answer brief.
>
> Tuite is most often translated as either "taking hand", "releasing hand" or
> even "taking and releasing hand"!
That was what I was looking for, thanks.
> Tode is an earlier Okinawan term for what most Okinawans would now call
> "karate".
But what does it translate to?? is it even Okinawan or Japanese, or is
it bastardized Chinese? I assume (dangerously as that may be) that -de
is another form for -te, but what does "To" translate to?
Does it still have a literal meaning, or have the original root of the
word been lost to the modern language, rendering it a meaningless name?
As for the definition of tode, I would like to point out that while that
is the normal explanation, there are still a few Okinawian arts that
call themselves tode (to differ themself from karate), although I dont
know much about them. So the name is still in use.
Btw. I must post more often, I totaly forgot the ^K^, thanks for adding
it.
Scott C. Milach
Scott Wrote:
> > Tode is an earlier Okinawan term for what most Okinawans would now call
> > "karate".
>
Martin Responded:
> But what does it translate to?? is it even Okinawan or Japanese, or is
> it bastardized Chinese? I assume (dangerously as that may be) that -de
> is another form for -te, but what does "To" translate to?
> Does it still have a literal meaning, or have the original root of the
> word been lost to the modern language, rendering it a meaningless name?
> As for the definition of tode, I would like to point out that while that
> is the normal explanation, there are still a few Okinawian arts that
> call themselves tode (to differ themself from karate), although I dont
> know much about them. So the name is still in use.
>
I would hardly call any of those terms "bastardized Chinese". One of the
limitations most of us face as martial artists is trying to discuss terms
without ready reference to the original language. Taking just Japanese as
an example, there is more than one way to romanize kanji (i.e. Hepburn or
other method). As a result, you can get people willing to fight to the
death over the difference between a "tomato" and a "tomatoe" (in our
circumstance "ti", "te", or "di"). Some people in this thread have rightly
stated that as martial artists, we often speak with heartfelt "authority"
when we aren't conversant in the Japanese (or other applicable) language.
Consequently, many of our debates can wind up being arguments based in the
method of romanization used, rather than the meaning of the term being
discussed. We can add to this the difficulties which may be encountered
when someone tries to translate characters using only "modern" Japanese. As
an example, in some Okinawan systems, the kata names and descriptions have
"designators" written in at the end which instruct the reader to read it
the "old way" rather than the current or "modern" way.
Then, (just to stir the pot and talk in a circle), on this NG I've seen
people use "tuite" and "tode" synonymously; a usage with which I am
previously unfamiliar. I've seen these terms romanized in text as ti, te,
tode, to-te, toudi, tuite, tuti, etc. So, until such time as we post
pictures of the original symbols onto the NG where we all can view them,
research them, and debate them, our discussions will continue to have their
limitations. It has been a great discussion though. I really enjoy seeing
the number of contributors to this thread as well as reading their thoughts
and opinions!!
Scott
Steve Grayston
James Wilkinson wrote:
> Steve,
> I have only been to Okinawa a couple times and haven't picked up any
> local ben. Not withstanding that one barely has to speak Japanese there. I
> hadn't considered that it may be some sort of local dialect. Thanks for the
> thought. I really just thought that the author of the original message had
> misspelled the word and was trying to get the meaning out of him. Then the
> word in question is only a matter of conjugation. I also wanted to say that
> I trust your knowledge is genuine. I hadn't mentioned any particular styles
> in regards to Osu and you knew the primary culprit I referred to. Anyway,
> thanks again. Peace.
Do Itashimashite (You're welcome)
Steve