JKA Kata List and Sources
Bob McMahon
Perhaps you can help me.. I'm trying to work backwards on the origins
of the Shotokan kata This is the first step. Does anyone have any
info to add or dispute?
Taikyoku- Funakoshi
Heian- Funakoshi
Tekki- Funakoshi
Bassai Dai- Funakoshi
Bassai Sho- Mabuni
Kanku Dai- Funakoshi
Kanku Sho- Funakoshi
Jitte- Funakoshi
Jion- Funakoshi
Jiin- Mabuni
Seishan/Hangetsu- Funakoshi
Sochin- Kase
Empi- Funakoshi
Chinte- Mabuni
Gankaku- Funakoshi
Meikyo- Funakoshi
Nijushiho- Mabuni
Gijushiho Sho- Mabuni
Gojushiho Dai- Kase
Unsu- Mabuni
Wankan- ?
Bob
Bob McMahon
I was trying to establish layer one first up. Where did the jka
obtain their current version of the kata syllabus. Just sticking with
that for the moment-
On Sat, 22 Sep 2001 13:53:19 -0400, 24...@24fightingchickens.com wrote:
>On Sat, 22 Sep 2001 03:01:07 GMT, bob...@ozemail.com.au (Bob McMahon)
>wrote:
>>Bassai Sho- Mabuni
Comparing what Funakoshi taught prior to 1933 with Mabuni's Bassai Sho
leads me to conclude that the modern JKA version comes from Mabuni.
>
>Bassai-Sho: Itosu
>
>>Jitte- Funakoshi
>
>Unknown
Came via Funakoshi though to theJKA
>
>>Jion- Funakoshi
>
>Unknown
>
>>Jiin- Mabuni
>
>Unknown
>
>All three are the same kata - separate versions.
Interesting, how did you draw that conclusion?
>
>>Sochin- Kase
>
>Funakoshi Jr.
I believe that Gigo most likely introduced this kata into Shotokan but
Kase has said he was recruited into the JKA to teach kata and that he
taught Gojushiho, Sochin Dai and Sho and Sanchin.
JKA's Gojushiho Sho is very similar to the Mabuni version. Gojushiho
Dai closely resembles that taught by Funakoshi prior to 1933.
>
>>Meikyo- Funakoshi
>
>Nakayama
Meikyo is performed by Funakoshi on the vintage tape that was filmed
between 1932 and 1934. Nakayama began karate in 1932 so he was not
involved.
>
>>Nijushiho- Mabuni
>>Gijushiho Sho- Mabuni
>>Gojushiho Dai- Kase
>
>Kase? Hmph.
See above..
>
>>Unsu- Mabuni
>>Wankan- ?
>
>Called Matsukaze in Shito-Ryu. Mabuni.
Yes, Harry Cook says it was introduced by Gigo but cites no reference
for this. I have no idea how it came to be included in the JKA.
It was not included in Itosu's original PE Syllabus either:
Naifuanchi 1-3
Pinan 1-5
Passai Dai (Matsumura)
Passai Sho (Itosu)
Kushanku Dai & Sho
Chinto (Gankaku)
Useishi (aka Gojushiho)
So for me, Wankan (Matsukaze) is still a mystery as to how it came to
be in the JKA kata syllabus. I'll ask on the Shoto list and see if
anyone there knows!
Thanks,
Bob
Bob McMahon
>>>All three are the same kata - separate versions.
>>
>>Interesting, how did you draw that conclusion?
>
>Nobody ever reads my web site, do they... *sigh*
I've had a read a few times but I don't study or memorise it all : )
I noticed that you said that all of the Shotokan Kata come from Shuri
Te or Tomari Te. These terms are not strictly correct as they were
introduced to disguise the true origin of the Chinese-influenced art
known as Toudi (Tote). They became common afterwards though.
In any case, Nijushiho (Niseishi) is closer to Naha Te 'style' than
others and is not very different to the description of Aragaki
Niseishi that I have seen. Seeing as Aragaki taught Seisan, Unsu,
Sochin and Niseshi.. it could be debated that Shotokan Kata does
reflect kata from the 3 main Okinawan groups.
It has been recorded that Funakoshi did learn Naha Te style kata such
as Pechurin (Suparenpei) from the Kojo family from Kumi village.
Certainly Funakoshi has referenced many of the Naha kata in his books.
However, its a moot point as all of the kata were given the Shotokan
renovation..
Bob
Bob McMahon
wrote:
>In any case, Nijushiho (Niseishi) is closer to Naha Te 'style' than
>others and is not very different to the description of Aragaki
>Niseishi that I have seen. Seeing as Aragaki taught Seisan, Unsu,
>Sochin and Niseshi.. it could be debated that Shotokan Kata does
>reflect kata from the 3 main Okinawan groups.
Oops, read a bit more on your site and saw you mentioned this.. sorry!
Bob
Bob McMahon
>On Sat, 22 Sep 2001 23:16:55 GMT, bob...@ozemail.com.au (Bob McMahon)
>wrote:
>
>>I noticed that you said that all of the Shotokan Kata come from Shuri
>>Te or Tomari Te. These terms are not strictly correct as they were
>>introduced to disguise the true origin of the Chinese-influenced art
>>known as Toudi (Tote). They became common afterwards though.
>
>I don't believe there is any evidence that the term "tou-di" was ever
>pronounced that way on Okinawa. What the heck would anyone reference?
I did ask and was told that by itself the term 'ti' is correct. Once
you place it after 'Tou' it becomes 'Toudi'. As well, Nafa Di and
Sui di is more correct than Naha Te and Shuri Te..
>
>The Tou character is commonly pronounced "kara." I have no idea who it
>is that claims that "di" is how "te" was pronounced on Okinawa. Today,
>it is pronounced "te" by Okinawans. There are no pronounciation guides
>for ancient Okinawan - so I don't understand why anyone would claim,
>as people seem to be doing today, that there was ever a term "toudi."
Those with better language skills than I, that translate old texts.
One works as a translator in Tokyo and has done this work for 10
years or so I believe,
>
>I'm suspicious a westerner made it up.
>
>Have you ever asked Patrick McCarthy where he got the mistranslation
>of Bassai in his book?
No, but you may have it incorrect as well. According to Hokama, it
was the name of the creator and has nothing to do with the kanji used.
In fact, many of the kata had kanji made to fit with romantic sounding
notions.. isn't it called ateji or something like that?
>
>The sources are simply unreliable. Karateists are hardly historians or
>linguists, and much of the drivel about the "real karate" coming out
>these days is very dubious to me.
Where we would be without a great critic and cynic such as yourself
though? Keeping the Shoto world honest whilst slipping closer and
closer towards the philosophy of Funakoshi himself unwittingly : )
Regards,
Bob
>
>
>--
>Rob Redmond "24 Fighting Chickens"
>Shotokan Planet
>http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan
Roberto A. Alvelais
24...@24fightingchickens.com wrote:
>Nobody ever reads my web site, do they... *sigh*
>
>
>--
>Rob Redmond "24 Fighting Chickens"
>Shotokan Planet
>http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan
Website? You've got a website?
What's the URL?
Rob ;-)
Bob McMahon
An extract from a post to a public list clarifying the Naha, Shuri
Tomari situation-
"Well, first of all, I do not like the classification of kata into
"Suidi" "Nafadi" and "Tumaidi" (i.e. the Okinawan pronunciations of
Shurite, Nahate, and Tomarite) for several reasons.
One is that according to many recent books on the history of Okinawa
karate, including those by Iwai Tsukuo (a noted Budo historian and
student of Motobu Choki style karate) these names were not used until
January 1927, when the Okinawan Board of Education decided to adopt
them as "style" names when Kano Jigoro (founder of the Kodokan Dojo
and modern Judo) came to Okinawa later that year.
Second, in the 1986 book "Taidan: Kindai Karatedo no Rekishi wo
Kataru" (Conversations on the History of Modern Karatedo) by Gima
Shinkin and Fujiwara Ryozo, Gima said that in his early years in
Okinawa, when he was studying under Itosu and Yabu (and others), he
Never once heard those names used.
Anyway, I don't think it is wise to really make distinctions in kata
like this, especially when talking pre-1927, because of these reasons
and others. One other reason is that I bet you there was a LOT of
cross training between the MAs in these 3 districts (and others). This
alone would rule out any one attempt at classifying kata into these
geographical classifications."
Bob
On Mon, 24 Sep 2001 01:30:18 -0400, 24...@24fightingchickens.com wrote:
>On Sun, 23 Sep 2001 03:48:25 GMT, bob...@ozemail.com.au (Bob McMahon)
>wrote:
>
>
>>>I don't believe there is any evidence that the term "tou-di" was ever
>>>pronounced that way on Okinawa. What the heck would anyone reference?
>
>>I did ask and was told that by itself the term 'ti' is correct. Once
>>you place it after 'Tou' it becomes 'Toudi'. As well, Nafa Di and
>>Sui di is more correct than Naha Te and Shuri Te..
>
>My problem with that is that the people who would know were long dead
>before we ever started asking. So who is it that knows? We no longer
>know how to pronounce latin or Egyptian, either, because no recordings
>or phonetics exist. The same is true of Okinawan, AFAIK.
Bob McMahon
>>In fact, many of the kata had kanji made to fit with romantic sounding
>>notions. isn't it called ateji or something like that?
>
>No, and I don't agree that happened. Most of the kata names are
>numbers or Buddhist expressions. Others are modern names that were
>slapped on recently.
Mysource said this on a public Goju list:
". Ateji can be described as the practice of assigning kanji to a
foreign word or a word that originally had no kanji. Usually, the
ateji that are designated to a particular word do so with the
intention of retaining the "original" pronunciation as well as to give
some semblance of "meaning" to the word.
Two examples that I think will be easy to understand are the Japanese
terms "enpitsu" and "sebiro."
Enpitsu consists of the kanji "en" (namari) meaning lead, and "hitsu"
(fude) meaning brush. It is the Japanese term for "pencil" ... but its
origins are Portuguese!
Sebiro consists of the kanji "se" meaning height, and "hiro" meaning
width. It is the Japanese term for a western style men's suit. There
are two theories on its origin, but both of them point to foreign
origins.
One theory is that it originally came from the English term
"civil(ian) clothes" and another that it came from "Seville" in Spain,
which was apparently famous for its suits.
I like how my good friend and esteemed colleague XXXXXX puts
it: "...Most modern readings for kata using kanji are simply just
that, modern interpretations using appropriate kanji which fit the
phonetic reading of the kata in question. A crude but accurate analogy
would be taking the proverbial square peg and beating it into a round
hole."
Consider that Funakoshi's 1922 "Ryukyu Kenpo Toudi" was the first
karate book officially published and widely disseminated in Japan. In
there, he presents 15 kata, and out of these 15, only Kushanku has
kanji attached to it. The others are all written in katakana (a
phonetic syllabry often used to represent words of foreign origin).
Consider that in his 1935 "Karatedo Kyohan," Funakoshi also mentioned
that he changed the kata names to Japanese-y terms due to the
difficulty to understand what the heck the kata names (written in
katakana) actually represented.
Remember, kanji is unique in that it has not only phonetic value, but
each kanji also has intrinsic meanings to it.
Also consider that in their 1938 "Kobo Kenpo Karatedo Nyumon" Nakasone
Genwa and Mabuni Kenwa also blatently state that they used ateji for
some of the kata names. Two examples they used were Passai (loosely,
penetrating a fortess) and Rohai (roughly, sign of a heron)."
Bob
Bob McMahon
>>Where we would be without a great critic and cynic such as yourself
>>though?
>
>Probably repeating stories that have no basis in fact.
Conceded.
>
>>Keeping the Shoto world honest whilst slipping closer and
>>closer towards the philosophy of Funakoshi himself unwittingly : )
>
>INSULT!
Not intended as an insult..
>
>I rebuke Funakoshi and his ideals.
I should be more specific then. Funakoshi promoted karate suitable
for the physical education program in schools and universities, He
felt that karate training had the most benefit if the student
developed the ability to stand aside and walk away if confronted with
physical violence. He simplified the 15 (so called) core kata thus
rendering any potential reverse-engineering of application a very
difficult task. He did not teach much in the way of application so
either he didn't know (unlikely as he left clues in his Master Text)
or like yourself, though karate was useless as a method of
self-defense.
Bob
Chris Parsons
Bob McMahon <bob...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:3baedbfb...@news.ozemail.com.au...
I think this makes sense in explaining much of the mystery of kata names.
There would have been very little reason to write these names down until the
first texts were written, so the characters used were probably created by
the writer, for his own reasons, or none at all. Maybe he named it after
his cat. Any significance in the name could be altered by someone reading
into something misheard. They could be a subtle play on words, or a pun.
Think of all the English idioms and expressions that confuse the hell out of
those learning it as a second language.
Chris--
Roberto A. Alvelais
24...@24fightingchickens.com wrote:
>>Also consider that in their 1938 "Kobo Kenpo Karatedo Nyumon" Nakasone
>>Genwa and Mabuni Kenwa also blatently state that they used ateji for
>>some of the kata names.
>
>This is possible where the teachers were illiterate or perhaps too
>thoughtless to ask their teachers how to write the names of the things
>they were learning: not unthinkable for a Japanese or an Okinawan.
FWIW guys,
I've heard that on the Naha side of the island, that the
kanji used were phonetic renderings of the names of the kata
that the people brought back from China. Evidently, Mabuni
and Miyagi used different kanji for Seienchen at least.
While Bob's thesis may not be plausible on the Shuri side,
because so many of the practitioners of Shuri-te were part
of the upper classes, it doesn't seem that this is the case
for the Naha te side. Higaonna, for example, did a lot of
manual labor, working on boats for his father. Fortunately,
many of the naha te kata are numbers (seisan, seipai,
sanseiryu...)
Rob
R...@jko.com
Bob McMahon
On Tue, 25 Sep 2001 23:09:46 -0400, 24...@24fightingchickens.com wrote:
>On Mon, 24 Sep 2001 07:14:47 GMT, bob...@ozemail.com.au (Bob McMahon)
>wrote:
>
>
>>Mysource said this on a public Goju list:
>
>Your source's logic is a little flawed.
He's been called worse, and by me : )
>
>>Two examples that I think will be easy to understand are the Japanese
>>terms "enpitsu" and "sebiro."
>
>This is not necessarily true as far as I am aware. I was taught that
>these two words are colloquially known as foreign, and I never saw
>them written using kanji. They were written using the appropriate
>katakana. If someone wrote them in kanji, which I don't doubt, it
>might not have spread very farm, but not to the point that the
>Japanese don't know that sebiro is a foreign word.
Apperently the Sanseido Daily Consise J-E Dictionary gives kanji for
'both' of these. Enpitsu is more often written in Hiragana, not
Katakana, and Sebiro is customarilly written in Kanji! If you check
with a small sample group of Japanese, you may change your opinion I'm
told, but it was only an example.
>
>>I like how my good friend and esteemed colleague XXXXXX puts
>>it: "...Most modern readings for kata using kanji are simply just
>>that
>
>Sounds like the slippery slope. Meikyo, for example, is not a foreign
>word. Neither is Heian, Tekki, Kanku, etc. These are all Japanese
>words. Consider the second most holy of the Japanese shrines: Heian
>Jingu. The spelling is the same. The "Heian" period is also the same.
To be fair, my source is not JKA and is only concerned with those
used in modern Okinawa!!!
>
>>modern interpretations using appropriate kanji which fit the
>>phonetic reading of the kata in question. A crude but accurate analogy
>>would be taking the proverbial square peg and beating it into a round
>>hole."
>
>Inplausible. For one thing, the Okinawans were not utterly illiterate.
>The upper classes handed off karate to the Japanese via Funakoshi,
>Yamaguchi, and Mabuni. All three brought kata with them, and all three
>brought Okinawan pronunciations for the kanji the kata were named
>with. The Japanese rendering is simply the difference between the
>pronunciation in Tokyo and Kyoto as opposed to the rural/redneck
>sounding Okinawan pronunciation.
First of all, Yamaguchi was Japanese and rarely if ever trained with
Miyagi in Okinawa. He studied with Miyagi's students in mainland Japan
and with Miyagi during his visits to Kansai.
Second, they were all written katakana by Funakoshi, except
Kushanku/Koshokun/whatever... in his kata list, however, he does have
the number kata and I think Unshu in kanji too...
>
>>Consider that Funakoshi's 1922 "Ryukyu Kenpo Toudi" was the first
>>karate book officially published and widely disseminated in Japan. In
>>there, he presents 15 kata, and out of these 15, only Kushanku has
>>kanji attached to it.
>
>Oh, Jesus. Now "Toudi" has to be on everything. Bob, Funakoshi never
>wrote that work in his book.
Rob, there is a noted Okinawan karateka/historian/researcher living in
Japan that has said that the term 'Toudi' was used all the time when
he was growing up inOkinawa. I will try and find something more than
that though!
>
>He's right. Only Koshokun has kanji attached to it.
Thank you..
>
>>Consider that in his 1935 "Karatedo Kyohan," Funakoshi also mentioned
>>that he changed the kata names to Japanese-y terms due to the
>>difficulty to understand what the heck the kata names (written in
>>katakana) actually represented.
>
>No no no. He tried to change the names *completely* - and failed.
>
>For example, he tried to change the name of Useishi (54) to Hotaku
>(Woodpecker). He failed. The name Gojushiho was adopted by his
>students and his Hotaku name was thrown out the window. Gojushiho is
>the Japanese pronunciation of the name 54 with an additional kanji on
>the end for "step."
Sorry, this was 'after' 1935 Karatedo Kyohan... he was talking about
Karatedo Kyohan.
>
>>Remember, kanji is unique in that it has not only phonetic value, but
>>each kanji also has intrinsic meanings to it.
>
>That is correct, but this guy assumes that there were no kanji already
>associated with the kata. I think rather Funakoshi was trying to
>publish a work that sterilized his Okinawan heritage, a very humble
>one at that, and prevent emabarassing himself. So he removed the
>kanji, feeling that his island background hurt his chances. He guess
>wrong. His students *loved* the folk wisdom that karate represented
>despite the war.
>
Yes, he assumes this because he has seen NO written sources before
Funakoshi's 1914 article that even mention ANY kata names. And even
that 1914 article has Kushanku written in katakana!!!
Also, he has yet to see a unique Okinawan written language. All
written documents he's seen from pre-20th century (and that includes
non-karate realted) ALL use either CHinese or Japanese writing
systems, using the grammatical structure of the respectuve languages.
Anyone can "force" a kanji on a foreign pronunciation, but this does
not prove that those kanji are correct...
>>Also consider that in their 1938 "Kobo Kenpo Karatedo Nyumon" Nakasone
>>Genwa and Mabuni Kenwa also blatently state that they used ateji for
>>some of the kata names.
>
>This is possible where the teachers were illiterate or perhaps too
>thoughtless to ask their teachers how to write the names of the things
>they were learning: not unthinkable for a Japanese or an Okinawan.
>
Hang on, wasn't Mabuni one of your examples of people who brought
kata with Okinawan names for the kanji with him to Japan? :-)
>>Two examples they used were Passai (loosely,
>>penetrating a fortess) and Rohai (roughly, sign of a heron)."
>
>My point stands: there simply is no kanji named "Patsu" or Batsu that
>says "Penetrate."
>
>It is entirely possible that the kanji names of the kata were thought
>up post 1922. It is entirely possible that the kanji are inventions of
>the people who use them. It would explain why one teacher uses one
>set, and another uses another set.
EXACTLY : )
>
>It does not explain why different teachers in different arts use the
>*same* kanji, and the fact that Funakoshi's Japanese names for kata...
Do you mean the "numbered kata" and the like? If so, these probably
were named in kanji correctly, and these stuck... Sanchin, Seisan,
Sanseiru, Pechurin, Niseishi, Useishi, et al. "How" these were named,
however, is a different story...
On the bassai/passai kanji,,, Mabuni stated explicitly that the kanji
he used was Ateji. Chibana used the same in Nakasone's 1938 Karatedo
Taikan, but this was edited by Nakasone.
Why does Mabuni use a different kanji for Passai/Bassai (although with
the same essential meaning)? Who knows?
>Hotaku, Shoin, Shofu, Shokyo, and Hakko... were never used in favor of
>other names which the Japanese beneath him and against his will gave
>their own kanji?
Read Funakoshi's auto-bio , he even says he didn't see the kata he
re-named as being etched in stone, and that he actually expected them
to be re-named again!
>All possible and very interesting, except for the bullshit about
>Funakoshi calling his art "toudi" which he clearly did not, but I
>think it's a bit of a reach to state as fact.
>
I'm not sure why you have such a problem with it. I don't think it is
so much what Funakoshi called it as much as how others translate the
term in question. The name 'kara te' may have been proposed much
earlier by Hanashiro Chomo, but it was only accepted after Funakoshi
promoted its use.
Anyway good discussion.. I'm sort of caught in the middle though and
will have to leave it at this.
Eoin Clarke
wrote:
>
>Sebiro consists of the kanji "se" meaning height, and "hiro" meaning
>width. It is the Japanese term for a western style men's suit. There
>are two theories on its origin, but both of them point to foreign
>origins.
>
>One theory is that it originally came from the English term
>"civil(ian) clothes" and another that it came from "Seville" in Spain,
>which was apparently famous for its suits.
I had thought it was common knowledge that the term "sebiro"
(referring to western style suits) came from the street in London that
was famous for making these suits 'Saville Row'. Go into any good
tailor in Ginza and speak to someone over 50 and he'll tell you the
same. Obviously this doesn't ensure that it is 100 % correct, but it
definitely calls into question the validity and accuracy of your
source. Flabbergasted as I am, I'll leave it at that
Eoin.
Gabriel Brega
<24...@24fightingchickens.com> wrote in message
news:97htqt8ub401a7g4s...@4ax.com...
<snip>
> No, and I don't agree that happened. Most of the kata names are
> numbers or Buddhist expressions. Others are modern names that were
> slapped on recently.
>
> Examples:
>
> Kanku - slapped on recently. But the kanji were not invented
> Jiin - Buddhist expression
> Jion - Buddhist expression
What does "buddhist expression" mean ? I am not challenging,
just asking. All the 'Catholic expressions' I know are blasphemies :-)
(little Hiroshi drops a basket of quail eggs and "Jion !! what a bad
day" )
And Suparinpai = the 108 worries of Buddhism ? It struck me
while I was watching a documentary on the Buddhist New Year in
Japan, when the monks hit the bell 108 times, to cast away the 108
worries. And Gojushiho = 108/2. Two gojushiho, and we are
back to 108.
Boxers do not call their techniques after names from the bible,
nor do rugby players or wrestlers, do they ? What is the
difference then ?
Are kata prayers/callisthenics , in the sense of the Sun salutation that
yoga practitioners are supposed to do every morning ?
Besides being a collection of deadly - although secret or lost - techniques,
of course :-)
Gabriel
Bob McMahon
Blew my argument right out of the water : )
Bob
Simon Slavin
bob...@ozemail.com.au (Bob McMahon) wrote:
> Remember, kanji is unique in that it has not only phonetic value, but
> each kanji also has intrinsic meanings to it.
Egyptian heiroglyphics work like this too. But they don't have
the added complication of being a bridge between two languages.
(But they do have the most ridiculous spelling conventions.)
Simon.
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