Toudi to Karate..
Bob McMahon
RR and I had a discussion on this subject and I found an article on
FightingArts.com that refers to this change.. enjoy!
http://fightingarts.com/content02/karate_meaning.shtml
Bob
Bob McMahon
>On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 06:55:50 GMT, bob...@ozemail.com.au (Bob McMahon)
>wrote:
>
>>
>>RR and I had a discussion on this subject and I found an article on
>>FightingArts.com that refers to this change.. enjoy!
>>
>>http://fightingarts.com/content02/karate_meaning.shtml
>
>With all due respect to yourself as messenger, the article is a big,
>steaming pile of bullshit, Bob.
No offence taken.. instead I looked further into it and found the same
sort of explanation in Harry Cook's book, Shotokan Karate: A Precise
History p98-100, Oshima's translation of Karate-Do Kyohan p3,
Schlatt's Shotokan Karate Dictionary p135, Nagamine's book, Essence
ofOkinawan Karate-Do p24,
In Hokama's History and Traditions of Okinawan Karate p87, the author
refers to the book, written by Itosu Anko, called Toudi Jakkajo. Also
on p93 Hokama refers to the change of kanji from ti to karate.
Also Patrick McCarthy translated the minutes of the famous 1936
meeting between Okinawan Karate luminaries of that era where the term
Toudi was used as a common term.
I can't see any conspiracy here Rob. We'll have to agree to disagree.
Bob
>
>The quote, "However, in 1922, his first book, "Ryukyu Kenpo Tode" used
>the characters 1 and 3 (Chinese hand)", is wrong.
>
>Funakoshi used mini-hiragana, called furigana, to show the proper
>pronunciation of every character in his book. He placed the spelling
>
>KA - RA - TE under what yet another
>amazingly-full-of-bullshit-revisionist calls "Toude."
>
>Funakoshi's book was "Ryukyu Kenpo Karate". Unlike most other works,
>Funakoshi was meticulous in passing down the pronunciation he used.
>
>--
>Rob Redmond "24 Fighting Chickens"
>Shotokan Planet
>http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan
Bob McMahon
>On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 23:00:43 GMT, bob...@ozemail.com.au (Bob McMahon)
>wrote:
>
>>In Hokama's History and Traditions of Okinawan Karate p87, the author
>>refers to the book, written by Itosu Anko, called Toudi Jakkajo. Also
>>on p93 Hokama refers to the change of kanji from ti to karate.
>
Do you have this book or have you heard of it before?
>Anytime I see anyone use "Ryukyu Kenpo Toudi/Toude" as the name of
>Funakoshi's book, I immediately know that they do not have a copy of
>the book. The book is extremely rare and almost impossible to acquire
>either here or in Asia. The book's title page says in hiragana
>"karate" --- not toude. It is spelled out there for anyone who
>actually has a copy of the book.
I have that book, lots of people have it. I can't read Japanese but I
can see that the Kanji for 'kara' is different to the modern kanji
used for 'kara'. Why was the kanji changed by Hanashiro Chomo and
promoted by Funakoshi then? Seems silly to change it from empty hand
to empty hand, are you saying that the old kanji never stood for T'ang
(indicating China) and that To or Tou is not the way that kanji can be
translated to say?
>
>As for the other works claiming that karate was called "Toudi" on
>Okinawa --- I have yet to see any work by an Okinawan using the
>furigana to assert their own pronunciation of a word. As a result, I
>remain skeptical that these claims that the word "Toudi" is the
>ancient pronunciation are any more credible than my own tendency to
>see kanji drawn in beach sand or Heian as the five elements of
>Musashi's work. In other words, mostly intellectual masturbation with
>no evidence, no logical support... little more than idle mental
>meanderings.
Kinjo Hiroshi, who I've met, is over 80 years of age and in
conversation with a karate friend of mine, during an interview,
confirmed that this term is valid.
>
Bob
Bob McMahon
>Anytime I see anyone use "Ryukyu Kenpo Toudi/Toude" as the name of
>Funakoshi's book, I immediately know that they do not have a copy of
>the book. The book is extremely rare and almost impossible to acquire
>either here or in Asia. The book's title page says in hiragana
>"karate" --- not toude. It is spelled out there for anyone who
>actually has a copy of the book.
Aw shucks Rob, my friend in Tokyo just emailed me this..
"..... he's right... but I think Funakoshi mis-used the "karate"
pronuncation for these same kanji though,,, based on Kinjo Hiroshi's
discussions!"
My source has some interesting things to say but as he is coming out
with a book that will address these issues, I cannot relate some of
it. Anyway, Rob, good work there.
Bob
Paul Willoughby
>
>I see a rather large conspiracy. It has the following platform:
>
>"We, the people who cannot spar competitively and win, in order to
>find some excuse for our continuing devotion and huge investment in
>martial arts, have decided that kata, something that we cannot get
>hurt doing and cannot truly compete using, are our hiding place.
>
>"We hereby declare that the competitive sparring addicts, otherwise
>known as 'jocks who have been kicking our asses like the pussies we
>are', do not understand The Real Karate[tm]. The Real Karate is
>kata-based.
>
>"Despite the fact that we cannot get within 6 feet of the sparring
>champions of the modern day without suffering humliations galore, we
>refuse to accept the truth that we are presented with: We cannot
>fight. We're geeks. We suck at fighting and sports.
>
>"In order to further our sense of intellectual superiority which is
>driven by a gargantuan inferiority complex, we will brandish about
>unverifiable claims about secret codes in the kata [cf. the Bible
>Code], the power of grappling, which luckily cannot be tested in
>sports and provides ample psychological retreat, and other snobbish
>pretentions such as attempting to revise our karate's history such
>that we will pronounce it using an undocumented and unverifiable
>method.
>
>"We're nerds."
>
What does being a nerd have to do with this? Or, is nerd and karate mutually
inclusive? ha ha ha.
But seriously, why does it have to be one way or the other. I both like to spar
and am interested in kata. I'm not particularly good at sparring, but I still
enjoy training for it. Only thing is, I'm interested in more than just the 5 or
6 techniques that work for me in Shotokan sparring. I like the idea of learning
other stuff that is not suitable for sparring but suitable puttin' a whoopin' on
someone who comes at you with a haymaker or grabs you by the lapel getting ready
to bust you one.
As far as competition is concerned, their are plenty of athletes that excel at
kumite and kata - albeit the performance art variety.
I know, I'm a geek but I don't care.
Paul
Chris Parsons
Paul Willoughby <cru...@radix.net> wrote in message
news:3bd962aa...@news1.radix.net...
Many of the people studying kata application are proven tournament champs.
It's just adding some different weapons to the arsenal.
Chris--
George Winter
<cpar...@mediaone.net> wrote:
<snip *many* lines of quoted text>
>Many of the people studying kata application are proven tournament champs.
>It's just adding some different weapons to the arsenal.
Chris you must learn to trim your responses.
--
George
_____________________________________________________________________
George Winter gwi...@q-sys.com
Qsys Ltd.
Information Systems Consulting
Bob McMahon
>>Do you have this book or have you heard of it before?
>>
>>>Anytime I see anyone use "Ryukyu Kenpo Toudi/Toude" as the name of
>>>Funakoshi's book, I immediately know that they do not have a copy of
>>>the book. The book is extremely rare and almost impossible to acquire
>>>either here or in Asia. The book's title page says in hiragana
>>>"karate" --- not toude. It is spelled out there for anyone who
>>>actually has a copy of the book.
As I said in another post, my mate in Tokyo confirms that. However,
the term 'Toudi' or 'Tote' was used to describe the 'empty hand' art
in everyday use. As I understand it, 'ti/te' was the common way to
refer to the native art. Keeping in mind that Japanese Bujtsu also
influenced the indigeneous fighting arts from as far back as the 12 th
Century.
"Toudi/Tote" was used to distinguish those whose art had been
influenced by the Chinese community of 'Kumi/Kume' village and by the
visits of travelling Chinese and Okinawans who trained in Martial Arts
in China.
Karate does appear to be a term adopted to allow a promotion of the
Okinawan art in a way that was thought to be best due to the sentiment
of the day. The terms Shuri Te, Naha Te and Tomarit Te were conjured
up when Jigoro Kano visited Okinawan for discussions on matters I
think had to do with his position in the Olympic movement.
The authorities at that time decided that tagging the location on to
the art would somehow be more acceptable by disguising the Chinese
origins of the art. Those terms stuck but more than once have I read
about someone mentioning they had never heard of Shuri Te as a
descriptor before that occasion. Now it is used quite commonly and
really, incorrectly.
>
>>I have that book, lots of people have it.
>
>Lots of people have "Karate Jitsu" - the translation of the recreation
>of the book called Rentan Karate Jutsu in Japanese.
>
>The original 1922 publication, of which very few were printed, was
>lost when the printing plates and all materials for it were destroyed
>in the 1923 Kanto Earthquake. It is *extremely* rare. Lots of people
>do not have a copy. I'd be surprised if there were 200 copies on the
>planet - most of them in the hands of Japanese karate instructors.
I have the 1925 and 1935 Japanese text versions. The 1925 version was
republished a few years ago. I also have a new acquisition which I am
going to have translated. It lists Sanchin in the kata syllabus and
shows a karateka performing the opening signature move, middle guard
in sanchin stance. It also shows the mawashi uke being performed in
sanchin stance as well. Interesting. It has Funakoshi's picture and
was written by his student and him or maybe just by his student.. I'm
still to discover some more yet. It is packed with text and only
shows Pinan Shodan (Heian Nidan), Naihanchi Shodan (Tekki 1) and
Kusanku. However the Kusanku appears to be the model for Heian Yondan
as the opening moves areone and the same. If I'm repeating this
information from another post, I apologise but it is a real find for
me anyway!
>
>> I can't read Japanese but I
>>can see that the Kanji for 'kara' is different to the modern kanji
>>used for 'kara'.
>
>Yes, it is. The kanji used to write the word karate was definitely
>changed sometime during the 20th Century.
>
>However, was that the Kanji used by the Okinawans in the 19th Century
>or earlier? Or did they even ever write the word due to their
>tremendous illiteracy rate?
I can't answer that but there may be some confirmation in Mabuni's
early stuff. My mate is checking to see.
>
>I do not doubt that kara can also be pronounced as toh in modern
>standard Japanese. It is right there in the many dictionaries on my
>shelves.
>
>What I do doubt is that someone has access to a work that says what
>the pronunciation of those two kanji was in 19th Century Naha City,
>Okinawa. Therefore, I doubt that "Tohde" or "Tohte" or "Tohdi" are
>known pronunciations of the word "karate" on old Okinawa. I feel
>skeptical for the following reasons:
>
>* No one alive back then is still alive
>>Kinjo Hiroshi, who I've met, is over 80 years of age and in
>>conversation with a karate friend of mine, during an interview,
>>confirmed that this term is valid.
>
>He wouldn't know.
I'm sure he would answer in kind. I would like to make sure before I
use it again. I'll get back to you on this.
Bob
Chris Parsons
<24...@24fightingchickens.com> wrote in message
news:a1njtt4o5ulifk37h...@4ax.com...
champs.
> >It's just adding some different weapons to the arsenal.
>
> have heard of are pretty uninterested in it.
Vince Morris was pretty formidible in his day, and his chief instructors
here , Sal Lopresti and Steve Montgomery were no slouches, either. I
competed in some of their tourneys in the mid 80's in Brooklyn.
Chris--
Chris Parsons
George Winter <gwi...@q-sys.com> wrote in message
news:5l7jttg64fgnkhl3p...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:19:04 GMT, "Chris Parsons"
> <cpar...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
> <snip *many* lines of quoted text>
>
> >Many of the people studying kata application are proven tournament
champs.
> >It's just adding some different weapons to the arsenal.
>
>
> Chris you must learn to trim your responses.
I often do, but sometimes I like the thread to be clear for someone coming
into the discussion later.
Chris--
Andrew Salmon
I was taught that this was a "description" (rather than a name) for
karate-do before karate-do (or karate-justsu) was termed as being the name
of the art. (Please feel free to pull this apart.)
--
Andy
"Bob McMahon" <bob...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:3bda17ad...@news.ozemail.com.au...
Tazman
> As far as competition is concerned, their are plenty of athletes that excel at
> kumite and kata - albeit the performance art variety.
>
I doubt most sparring competitors would do anything for performance
sake alone.
Generally the quickest way to clear the traditional class of your
tournament guys is to point out insignificant details in their
performance. We laugh about that in our sparring classes.