- Jinkaku kansei ni tsutomuru koto
(to strive for perfection of character)
- Makoto no michi o mamoru koto
(to defend the paths of truth)
- Doryoku no seishin o yashinau koto
(to foster the spirit of effort)
- Reigi o omonzuru koto
(to honour the principles of etiquette)
- Kekki no yu o imashimuru koto
(to guard against impetuous courage)
Karate doesn't help you do this at all. It has nothing whatever to do
with it.Many karate people have very bad characters. Some very high
ranking ones act like spoiled children.
The implication is that someow karate practice, punching, kicking and
blocking,will help you to strive to perfect your character, which may
not be present in the wtriter's mind but is in the practitioner's , is
Religion is for that, karate is not a religion.Karate is a way of life
only for people who make their living teaching it, or for people who
live for nothing else. Personally, I think the second case is sad, the
first, well, been there done that.
2.To defend the paths of truth.'
And those would be?It doesn't say, does it, and again, what does karate
do to defend any truth?This would be the province of science.Karate
isn't science, as witness how many people didn't even try the
experiments we gave on here.It isn't science, it isn't religion, but is
3.To foster the spirit of effort.
Most karateka never reach shodan, fewer ever become yondan.Most quit
long before they make brown.Fostering the spirit of effort, karate
doesn't make you do this, you do or no one does.And it sn't the purpose
of karate. Karate's actual urpose, is the purpose of the
techniques.Kihon purpose is to become good at kihon, kata's purpose is
to learn techniques of counterroffense to beat upthose who would beat
you up, and kumite's purpose is to beat others up in contest before they
can beat you up.The spirit of effort is not innately fostered by karate
training, though you need it to become good.
4.'To honor the principles of etiquette.'
Not noticeably as far as I can see.
Exception rather than rule, here.
5.'To guard against impetuous courage.'
Or rash actions, perhaps? Again, not noticeably so.
The Dojo Con.
I wrote a better one for the thirty seven chambers, long ago.
But here's a good one.This is from my experience of teaching and
practicing karate, and thirty seven years of martial arts practice.
1.Don't let the stuf run your life.(Too late for everyone here)
2.It's just a hobby.
3.There are better ways to excercise.
4.It won't teach you to fight, really.
5.If you want self defense, take self defense, don't waste your time on
6.Pay your dues promptly.
7. Sweep and mop the dojo and turn the lights out on the way out.
I don't see anything wrong with the ideas presented in the Dojo Kun.
Many of us have similar idealogy towards their lives. And we see benefits
when we do follow those ideas.
[Dojo Con?? -- not funny]
True. But it's kinda like the televangelist that preaches commandments
while breaking them. It's like, "why should I listen to THIS guy?" Since
karate's fathers had their faults, why not just live by your OWN moral code?
Adopt a point or three of the dojo kun if you wish...or not. But why follow
the code of a hypocrite that doesn't follow his own...
> [Dojo Con?? -- not funny]
I liked it... ;-)
>> [Dojo Con?? -- not funny]
>I liked it... ;-)
Old joke around here. Old. The Dojo Con thing has been done many
times. Good for the kids mostly.
How is it a code of practice? What does it have to do
with your typical shotokan class?
You sweat, you dance, you bang limbs. Who needs a
> I am not necessarily in favour of tradition for tradition's sake - few
> things irritate me more than using "because we've always done it this way"
> as an excuse.
You've come to the right place.
> Nevertheless, is it any different than having a Code of Good Practice at
> work? Expectations of Proper Behaviour at school? 10 Commandments in
> religion? Accepted rules of behaviour for society (laws)?
In those other locales, no one demands that you chant your
ethical code on a regular basis like zombies. That makes it
> You don't necessarily have to "leave your brain at the door"
Hey hey hey - that's copyright infringement!
> ... here is the Dojo Kun as I know it;
> - Jinkaku kansei ni tsutomuru koto
> (to strive for perfection of character)
> - Makoto no michi o mamoru koto
> (to defend the paths of truth)
> - Doryoku no seishin o yashinau koto
> (to foster the spirit of effort)
> - Reigi o omonzuru koto
> (to honour the principles of etiquette)
> - Kekki no yu o imashimuru koto
> (to guard against impetuous courage)
I don't speak Japanese, but there's a lot of controversy
over the proper translation. Just as you'd expect from
something that's somewhat vague and culture dependent.
And if we don't have a gold seal translation, if everyone
is entitled to interpret it as he pleases, how much weight
can you attach to it?
Neither do I.
But I find it offensive that a karate instructor preaches
morality to me.
Join a tennis club or yacht club. Do you have to recite
the Court Kun or the Marina Kun every time you use
> Many of us have similar ideology towards their lives.
> And we see benefits when we do follow those ideas.
That's fine, but don't get sanctimonious just because
you think your shlong is longer than mine - er, I mean,
just because some guy in pajamas declared you a
higher rank than me.
> [Dojo Con?? -- not funny]
Agreed - as witticisms go, it's not exactly scintillating.
What IS funny is your righteous indignation in
Looks like we hooked a live one, gang!
Paul T, dialing in Mr. Long's coordinates on his 20 mm cannon
"Jake" <newton...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
Try to be a better person.
Be faithful and sincere.
Try hard in everything you do.
Be polite and respectful.
Don't be cruel or violent.
I don't think that this version or the one I published earlier have to be
taken in anyway literally but need to be thought over and considered on
thier pro's, con's and deeper meaning (if any). Even if you end up
discarding them completely at least you have spent some time considering
wether you live your life in a socially acceptable manner, what is a good
way to act, how you would like to be treated, and so on .... ie. you have
considered some ethics - right or wrong and come to a decision.
I don't think that people should be taught methods of violence and combat
(effective or not) without at least an attempt at moral guidance - you have
to admit that there at least a few of them out there that need it.
Paul Tanenbaum <ptane...@consultant.com> wrote in message
Am I wrong, or do American schoolchildren still recite the Declaration of
Independance in school?
(or did they ever? I may be wrong on this, not being from America)
Paul Tanenbaum <ptane...@consultant.com> wrote in message
> OK the most interesting thing I'm seeing in the 'Black belt' thread is
> peoples response to the Dojo Kun thing.
> I personally have to know it both in English and Japanese, I can see nothing
> wrong with it essentially as a code of practice.
There are different ways to wrap a context on this.
What if GF said: "If you want to practice with me
you will...fill in the Dojo Kun thing..."?
Some other people quote the DK as a result.
"If you practice with me you will atain these qualities
...fill in the Dojo Kun thing..."?
I guess that all the contexts might apply at one time
I have to apologise to my American friends - I have just sent a post
contesting this and siting that American schoolchildren have to recite the
Declaration of Independance at school. I have had a look around and now
believe it to be the Oath of Allegiance that I mean.
Again I apologise, not wanting to offend any more than necessary, but the
point remains the same.
Paul Tanenbaum <ptane...@consultant.com> wrote in message
Gemberling's Martial Arts
Tae Kwon Do & Arnis
"the dutton family" <sdba...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
> 1. Strive for perfection of character.
> Karate doesn't help you do this at all.
The sentence is not 'do karate and I promise to you that you will achieve.."
it says 'now that you are all sweaty after practice, may I remind you that
you should ..'
The difference is substantial. The dojo-kun does not promise, it
proposes lukewarm and obscure (I can't say whether because of
the translation or because of the original) do-good platitudes.
> Religion is for that, karate is not a religion.
Religion does not do much either.
And I wan't just quote the usual unpresentable specimens : the
the Talibans, the Pasdaran, the Hindu/Sikh mess in India, the Hindu/Muslim
mess between Pakistan and India, the European wars of religion, the
Inquisition, the Holy Land madness, etc etc etc.
Religion is based on believing that a transcendent reality and destiny takes
the precedence over immanent reality. If a viable ethics system comes out
of that it is by sheer luck - religion as such is designed to miss.
> 3.To foster the spirit of effort.
> Most karateka never reach shodan, fewer ever become yondan.Most quit
> long before they make brown.Fostering the spirit of effort, karate
> doesn't make you do this, you do or no one does.And it sn't the purpose
> of karate. Karate's actual urpose, is the purpose of the
> techniques.Kihon purpose is to become good at kihon, kata's purpose is
> to learn techniques of counterroffense to beat upthose who would beat
> you up, and kumite's purpose is to beat others up in contest before they
> can beat you up.The spirit of effort is not innately fostered by karate
> training, though you need it to become good.
From the above I understand that you don't believe that training one's
capability for 'effort' has any value. Therefore I would not be surprised
if you never talked about such a useless concept with your students.
I, on the other hand, believe that training should also target one's
willpower and capability for 'effort'. Would you be surprised if
I introduced that concept with the rest of the instruction ?
> 4.'To honor the principles of etiquette.'
> Not noticeably as far as I can see.
> Exception rather than rule, here.
Is the concept :
a) noxious, and therefore to be avoided
b) not transmittable by a nursery rhyme alone, but worth mentioning
c) to be dealt with in other ways
"the dutton family" <sdba...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
That's why we keep him around here.
Only a twenty, Paul?I thought you'd at least bring to bear a 108.
'Looks like we hooked a live one!'
Yes it does.Now you can pull his leg some.:-)
>No problem. But some of us didn't recite it after we started thinking about
>it (which for me was toward the end of high school). It turns out that it
>has been changed from the author's original, and some meaning has been
Excerpt from http://www.vineyard.net/vineyard/history/pledge.htm
The Pledge of Allegiance
A Short History
by Dr. John W. Baer
Copyright 1992 by Dr. John W. Baer
In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state
superintendents of education in the National Education Association. As
its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools'
quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He structured
this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag
salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.'
His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag
and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible,
with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word,
'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of
education on his committee were against equality for women and African
Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ]
Dr. Mortimer Adler, American philosopher and last living founder of
the Great Books program at Saint John's College, has analyzed these
ideas in his book, The Six Great Ideas. He argues that the three great
ideas of the American political tradition are 'equality, liberty and
justice for all.' 'Justice' mediates between the often conflicting
goals of 'liberty' and 'equality.'
In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership
of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution,
changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United
States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was
In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added
the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a
patriotic oath and a public prayer.
George Winter gwi...@q-sys.com
Information Systems Consulting
> I can see nothing
> wrong with it essentially as a code of practice.
Nothing wrong with it -- even your translation is more faithful
than usual -- it just has nothing to do with Karate. That's
just my humble opinion. If you'd like to persue the subject on
this group then I highly recommend that you read the following
two web pages before doing so.
Once you've read them, feel free to discuss away.
http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk | A truly secure password algorithm also has
No junk email please. | to check for the Post-It Note (TM) on the
| monitor. -- Jim Esler
Mac OS X. Because making Unix user-friendly is easier than debugging Windows.
'or do American schoolchildren still recite the Declaration of
Independece in school?'
We never did.The Devlaration of Independece is studied, as its when the
Americans told you lot to take a well earned hike:-), but bygones
No, it isn't chanted in schools.
Used tochant the Pledge of allegiance but not anynore, it says God in it
and we can't, have, that, can we?
In the UK you have a State Reigion, in America we have separation of
Church and State.
Which has been interpreted to mean no mention of God in school.
In England you have a Monarch and Royal Family and Nobility.
But you have a Government that can dissappear in a single lost vote of
Confidence, and no Constitution guaranteeing otherwise.
In the US we have no Monarch, no roals, and class is decided by how much
money you have regardless of how you get it.
But our government is backed with a Constitution and it doesn't matter
who runs it, it still goes on and on and on...
One member of our parliament, or Congress, has been a member since 1937
and an elected one at that.
Of course, you have the House of Lords.And the Magna Carta.
So, it's a trade off.
And nothing to do with a Dojo kun.
Nonsense. Its by Divine revelation, and every religion that is a
religion has a viable ethics system, and it is the same one.
What a coincidence.
Don't confuse a religion with its adherents, that is sloppy thinking.
That would be like saying, karate is the people who do it. It is not,
its a set of techniques.
Relgion is a set of teachings, I won't argue the origin with you
further, but it sn't a hit or miss proposition.
When people really live according to the clear ethical precepts of
religion, you get some fine human beings.Surely you must have met at
least one such sometime in your life.
When they don't, and abuse those teachings and go opposite to them, even
if they are religious leaders, they really suck.
So, yes, religion Is for perfecting or developing character, and yes, it
stems from a faith in a transcendent Being or Truth, and humanity is
told of it by someone who claims to be a representative thereof.
Many people claim to be who aren't, and many who are, may not be
People being people, that is always the way of it.
The ones who really are, give rise to a spiritualized civilization over
a eriod of centuries, and leave in their wake some really beneficial
things, , and yes, some of their followers perpetrate horrors, but they
would have anyway.
Some perpetrate horrors, who are not religious, either.
And some do good who are not.
But saying that no good came from , say, Christianity or Islam or
Buddhism or whatever, is simply not the case.
Not much good on the other hand came from, say, Hitler- oooops!Thread's
Yes I agree, with this last sentence, but that has nothing to do with it
> The implication is that someow karate practice, punching, kicking and
> blocking,will help you to strive to perfect your character, which may
> not be present in the wtriter's mind but is in the practitioner's , is
It was present in the writers mind. Have you read anything by Gichin
The whole point of is writings is that karate should not be only about
punching, kicking and blocking.
Now if that is the way you have trained it, then of course, karate as you
know it as nothing to do with any of the ideas present in the Dojo Kun (no
matter which translation you use).
> Religion is for that, karate is not a religion.Karate is a way of life
> only for people who make their living teaching it, or for people who
> live for nothing else. Personally, I think the second case is sad, the
> first, well, been there done that.
It changed my life in all sorts of ways, it changed the way I react to
everyday situations in a very deep way, I've met people who have changed a
lot due to karate practice too. I don't make a living teaching it and karate
is just a small part of my life.
Now, by reading the remaining of your coments, it seemed to me that you were
only saying "no one practices karate that way".
Well the way I see it, most people don't, and if that is what you are
refering too then you are right.
If I had trained it just to have fun and learn some punches and kicks it
would not made much diference to me and I would not think so highly of
karate or most martial arts as I do now.
> 1.Don't let the stuf run your life.(Too late for everyone here)
I agree, beeing obcessed with karate or anything else is not a good thing
> 2.It's just a hobby.
You just take your point of view and make it true for everyone else.
Why should it be just a hobby?
> 3.There are better ways to excercise.
Probably are... then again it also depends what you are trying to achieve
with all the exercise, and it depends on the individual.
> 4.It won't teach you to fight, really.
> 5.If you want self defense, take self defense, don't waste your time on
Well, I have an idea of what I should expect from Karate or Aikido,
tai-chi, kick boxing, but self defense? What is that?
Self defense is a pretty vague concept. You can for instance use some
ju-jitsu stuff, not teach the basics properly and call it self-defence, for
<fin_fa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> Nothing wrong with it -- even your translation is more faithful
> than usual -
- it just has nothing to do with Karate.
Oh yeah? Who wrote it then? It may have nothing to do with the Karate that
you practice, it may have no relevance today whatsoever, but you can't say
that it has nothing to do with Karate.
> If you'd like to persue the subject on
> this group then I highly recommend that you read the following
> two web pages before doing so.
I have already, but thank you very much. To be quite honest , I'm more
comfortable keeping what I think to myself but it has been intruiging and
entertaining to read other peoples opinions.
Thank you for yours.
(P.S. was this a good enough troll for you, fin?)
<fin_fa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
LOL ! Please enlighten me on the positive effect of God's Divine will,
religions, prayer, to avoid human errors and prevent or only mitigate
human suffering by fostering positive ethical behaviour and choices.
What did the Lutherans, the Orthodox, the Catholics do in the '30s ? If you
don't know it, they were almost all blessing the battle flags, the pogroms
And what about the Mufti ?
What do chaplains of all denominations do when the powers to be order people
to kill each other ?
Religious ethics is at best conservation - at worst divisive bigotry.
See - please - the Middle East, the Indian Partition (poor Gandhi !), the
Yugoslavian mess, just to name some recent garbage.
Sloppy thinking ? Nah - prove that it is not as I say , Sir - and to the
point, please, do not promise me another miracle by year's end like last
year- otherwise God knows what else will happen in the Middle East.
We are all we've got, John, sorry to tell you.
Isn't there a federaol Law against it now?Since it does now mention God?
If not, hooray for common sense!
When I was in elementary school, we used to recite the pledge, and the
Twenty-Third Psalm every day.
That of course is from the Jewish scripture that makes up two thirds of
the Christian Bible as well.Though many Christians don't realize that.
I woudn't mind if they recited something from a different faith each
week, and on the days when the rotation completed, recited the Agnostics
Creed:'I Don't Know!'Uttered in a plaintive tone.
Then they could try on the Atheists Confession of Unfaith:-).We know
that God does not exist, and we take this as an article of our Faith I
Reminds me of when they werre going to allow optional non denominational
prayer in schools, and in the cartoon strip, I think it was Geech, they
showed a tracher's voice in a word balloon saying, :'Okay Billy, now
lead the class in optional nondenominational prayer for today, and Billy
begins:'O Lord Buddha, guide us all in the Noble Eightfold Path...'word
balloon says:'Hold it.":-)
See, this isn't the same America as it was in 1958, and maybe it wasn't,
So if you have prayer in schools, can you limit it to one religion's
prayers when you have students of any and every Faith in there?
I do remember something else about that time; no one was shooting anyone
in grade school, junior high or even high school then.
Prayer in schools has never been needed as much as it is now.But whose
Difficult question, related to the dojo kun as follows.
If we are going at the beginning of a karate class to say a creed, why
use one that was relevant to some Okinawan or japanese person but
doesn't have a standard or agreed upon translation or even meaning in
Use a better creed.Here's yet another, this time serious.
1.Karate is my hobby.I shall not fantasize about getting into fights
with motorcycle gangs and winning, and if I do, I shall not try to enact
2.Karate will not make me into a masked and caped Avenger, not even a
Vengel.It may be fun to read stories or watch movies where a karateka
takes out an entire town full of bad guys but really, the first gun punk
will kill you.
3.karate is either done for social reasons, for sport reasons, or for
self defense or fitness reasons.It is not done to make you into a real
world fighting machine.Other disciplines are required for that, which
while at one time taught as or with karate, are not now.So forget about
4.Karate is not a philosophy, a religion, or a science( man is it not a
science), nor is it particularly a way of life unless you teach kaate
professionally, do it as a hobby, married a karateka, teach it to your
children, and all your friends are in karate, then it is your way of
life, but it isn't A way of life.It isn't really a Way at all.It doesn't
develop character, yours or others, you do that, or no one does.
5.Karate is not worth getting injured for,it is not worth being
humiliated, it is not worth submitting to some one else in all things
for, it is not worth your self respect, your freedom or your
beliefs.Karate is worth precisely and only as much as you want it to be
worth on any particular day. Funakoshi said, the technique exists for
the man, not the man for the technique. That's Funakoshi, author of the
dojo kun and nijukun.
6.Karate is not a person, it is a body of techniques. Karate has no
purpose other than the purpose of those techniques, which is to evade,
control and stop attackers .The kata are the repository of the
techniques , and appear to be totally counterroffensive, not
aggressive.Thats the only purpose of karate.
7.The inventors of karate did not give us an instructional manual of
applications.The appiclations can be found however through using the
techniques left y the Cineseand japanese arts which passed on two person
techniques, and also by the manuals that Were left by the founders of
Kungfu, Chinese literacy is wonderful.The Bubishi is a Chinese manual
that, while much maligned, historically is known to have been regarded
as a sort of Bible of technique and application by all the early
Okinawan masters that did start the styles in existence today.
Maybe that';s why the Okinawans didn't leave us a manual, the one they
had was good enough.
And best of all it has pictures.
There's your dojo kun.
Some of the Okinawan styles use the eight precepts of the Bubishi as
their dojo kun.
At least those make sense, but only if you study the concepts of Kungfu.
How about this dojo kun?
1. I will pay my dues on time.
2. I will obey my instructors ewithout question.
3. I will teach class free of charge for years, as it is an honor to do
4.I will defend the honor of the school by entering every event in every
every time.Whether I am interested in competition or no.
5. I will clean the dojo every day, for free.
6. In all these ways I will perfect my character and will never ask why
my instructors have not perfected theirs.
7. I will be a good little slavey.I will swallow the doo con without
What about that, then? Eh?
Good one, innit?
Just for fun, I asked my Japanese tutor (yes, she is from Japan) to
translate this sentence. She said that the word "perfection" is
nowhere in that sentence. She said that "completion" would be a much
better term to use.
Central Illinois Shotokan
Gabe- forget what priests did, they are not religion.In fact, nowhere in
the gospel will you find any ordination of priests.
Try the Sermon on the Mount, and the ten commandments, the Eightfold
path of the Buddha, the Divine Qualities given in the Bhagavad-Gita, the
teachings of each religious Founder on how people are to treat each
other, regardless of how some people at some times as I say, disregard
or contravene these teachings.
These are religious ethics.
'Prove it is not as I say, Sir-'
No need to. People abuse teachings of religion, but others abide by
them. These are fine and good and decent human beings, who do not make
the headlines because they do Not kill, steal, lie, cheat, or commit
various kinds of adultery.
'do not promkise me another miracle by year's end like last year..'
As I admitted publicly on here, I wqas wrong about this, but my Faith
was not, it doesn't say there would be world peace by now, but does say
there would be e unity of nations established, and this has happened,
through the riple Millennium Forum, ngo's at the Un, the Milennium
Religion Summit, and the Millennium Summit with world leaders.The
Millennnium Declaration was ratified by all nations participating, but
it was left up to each nation to put its clauses into effect.
Go to UN website and look under Millennium Declaraton to see.
The reality of what I was talking about, has happened.But it wasn't the
stage I thought it would be. Wars are stil going on, and will continue
to, until mankind reaches that stage.
The only one who made a mistake then, was me.I apologized, and do so
again, for my misunderstanding of what in fact, the Writings of my Faith
Did say, and what they say, is in fact, what occurred.
'We're all we've got, John , sorry to tell you."
Gabe, I'm happy to tell you, we're not.:-)
But we are going to have to 'd it ourselves', for the most part, and I
always said so, except for certain instnces of Divine intervention in
the processes of human history mainly connected with the appearance on
earth of Divine Relgious Founders,who then give their Teachings, train
followers, and let mankind do as well as they will with what they are
Prove to you, Sir, 'tis not as you say?Well, in matter such as these, I
can but try.Due to my imperfect scholarship and incomplete understanding
of many matters earthly as well as heavenly, I may make many mistakes,
and you may take these as proof that God does not exist.
I on the other hand take my existence, the fact that I have intelligence
and free will to make such mistakes, as a proof that He does.
Still, let me try my humble best here: All that is good in human society
can be traced back, if justice be served, to impulses derived from
religion, wherther prehistoric or historic.
The very concept of good and evil, right and wrong, comes directly or
indirectly from the influence of the Divine Prophets Who, since time
immemorial ,have been successiveley sent to mankind.
Yes,m Their Teachingds have been abused and distorted, and They
themselves killed by those to whom they brought, Prometheus'like, the
gifts of knowledge, wisdoms, faith, and love, charity, courtes,
truthfulness, trustowrthiness, and all those other virtues that
distinguish man from animal when they are aqcuired, or instilled into us
The very fact of the coherence and development of human society,
historically, from the family, the tribe, the city-state, the nation, to
the present stage of an interdependent world, however precariously our
situation may develop in the near or farther future,illustrates that
something more than man's own hit or miss and mostly miss, methods are
coming into play here, often in spite of us.
The existence of Hospitals, colleges, charitable organizations, of
Universities,of medical science itself, of literature, art and history,
all are attributable to the civilizing influences of Religion.
The Dark Ages of Europe, attributable to Chrisianity having by 400 A,D,
fallen into the hands of the Priests,were indeed inlllumined and
enlightened by the light of the Rennaissance, attributable directly to
the inflence of the bright, though also troubled, Civilization of Islam.
Even during the Dark Ages, the Monks and some priests, also established
and promoted education and learning, healing clinics, and many
charitable acticvities, the Bendictines come to mind,and the Monk(
actually a Deacon) Alcuin as well. who influenced education in the
Empire of Charlemagne as well as in EnGlands Kingdoms.For ever bad
religionist you can show, there are good ones as well, and some were
very good indeed.
Presently, it is imposible to be anywhere in the US, without a Salvation
Army,a Goodwill store, food pantries and kitchens operated by religious
people and organizations,and many are the uan beings of faith whom I
have encountered in my life, whohave embodieed the moral and ethical
teachings of the Founders of their Faiths. If you truly have never met
even one of these people, who has had any such influence upon your life
or of those who surround you, I am truly sorry that you have missed this
experience, but I would be surprised if you have not.
And yet you think us deluded.
But let's say for argument's sake that youa are correct.Let's say there
is no God and all the Prophets were deluded but in many cases sincere
people, and that Religion comes from human mind alone.Let's say that
we're all we got, as you believe.
Pay, how are we going to live? According to what man made code of
e3thics are we to guide outr lives and those of our children, and the
life of society?
Check out what each Religion has tomoffer, and each philosophy, and you
yourself, and Funakoshi, and see if one of those codes, or the common
ethics underlying all Religion, is best to live by.
And them if ewe are all we got, live by it. If as you believe man is
just a meat machine, who is ephemeral, why live lany other way than the
most sublime ways ever presented to man?
Why waste it all?Why not 'be all you can be"? Not in the army, but in
As for God not existing, I gave an experiment that requires one year for
anyone to do, to find that out for themselves. Did you do it? Do you
Show you how.Take the Prayer that is the whole seventeenth chapter of
Saint John, in the Bible, which Prayer is said to have been uttered by
Christ Himself, and use it every day or night, for a year.If at the end
of that year you still don't believe in God, fine.Guess you don'yt. But
idf you don't try the experiment scenteifically with an open mind, I
will have to say, your Faith is Atheism and your creed 'there is no
And that your faith is as blind as that of any other believer in the
earth who never checks their faith.
Prove it? The proof is in the pudding. Use that Prayer, or the Lord's
Prayer, or a Psalm of your choice, or the Gayatri of Hinduism, or the
great Mantra of Buddhism, or the Rush'ma of Sabeanism, or the Vohu Mano
or Ashem Vohu of Zoroastrianism, or the Salat of Islam, or the Shema of
Judaism, or the Obligtory or any other Prayer of the Baha'i Faith, they
are available on the Internet, all of them, in English Translation,,take
Use it for a year in the morning and the evening, and see if you're the
same after one year.
And world peace is not going to happen by m,iracle, nor did I ever say
it would. It will happen by an act of humanity's collective will,
expressed by its governmental leaders.And this is what my Faith does say
clearly and plainly, it is up to the peples and governments of the world
to bring this about. In stages, it has been moving towards consummation,
for quite some time now, from the first act of international
arbitration, done betwen the US and Great Britain for reparations after
the Civil War in 1867,the increae in arbitration, the formation of the
League of Nations , the subsequent formation of the United Nations, and
the promulgation of the Millenium Declarations subsequent to the entire
Decade of the Nineties having seen world summits on various aspects of
Yes Sir, you can say that the world is in a state of crisis, and so it
is; and so is a woman when pregnant, but the world, will yield as a
child of this crisis, first and by stages, a major one of which has just
past, a politivcal peace, and then, over a course of centrueis and even
millennnia, a spiritualzed and united human race, a world commonwealth
identified with the Christ-Promised Kingdom of God on earth, and
finally, a world civilization that will make the Renaissance look like
darkness in comparison.
So, can I prove to you that people have no free will and can and wil not
screw things up at any and every opportunity? No, I can not, but I never
What I did say, was that, blood and tears and toil and sweat, conflicts,
and mistakes will be made, but mankind wil progress.As it has been
progressing. However, the current problems it faces are due to its
throwing the baby of Religion out with the bathwater of abuse of power
wielded by the leaders of some of those faiths and also, bby the
political leaders, who often only think of their own advantage, or put
their own nation above all others as if by Divine Right that in fact,
was never given.
It is in fact the very prinvciples, first principles if you will,. given
us by the Founders of the various Religions and intellectually expounded
by Divine philosophers( philosophers believing in God) and by statesmen
who selflessly devote themdselves to the welfare of the entire human
race, and such do exist,you mentioned Gandhi, and others did and do,hat
we may find solutions, workabe and not Utopian, for every problem facing
In fqaxt, there are spiritual principles or what some call human values,
by which, if we raise the discussion to the level of principle, every
human problem can be solved.
But pessimism and doubt can paralyze the rocess, and do, and thus retard
the inevitable consummation thereof.
As can a belief in mankind's fallen position or condition, also a
misinterpretation of religious leaders which has now been swllowed by
the materialists and atheists, but which even the founders of humanism
such as Erasmus, or of socialism or other movements, nor of capitalism,
originally held.All believed in progress.
But who is it that can deliver?
To start with, we should stop fighting.
To say that we are all we got, as has been said, without offering the
slightest proof of that, or any experiment which could deemonstrate a
probability of this being so, is a cop out, and logically indefensible.
But as to proofs of exisence, if I see a painting , I know a painter
If I see a bridge or a city, a builder exists, even though I may not see
him or any other trace of him.
When I see the Universe in all its order and wonder, and the ecological
system of earth in all its functionality, am I to be so arrogant that I
should believe it all just happened?
That is indefensible.
Here's another. You can say all you want to about followers of Relgions
corrupting them, but when you look at the lives of the Founders and
Their teachings, after the time when they made known where they came
from and Whom They represented
then you get a different reality there.
If the Bridge Inspector shows up to see, every now and again, ow people
have been taking care of His Bridge,and the people crap on the Bridge,
how is that the fault of the Builder, or of the inspector, Whom the
people kill, torture, poison or exile?
It isn't. Also a logical fallacy.
If you want to say that Religion has permitted people to do wrong, that
is nonsense.Religion does not, nor does God, remove free will, He gives
it to us.
If you would instead say, people do wrong in the Name of God and of
Religion, by their own choice and will, that is correct, and a perusal
of even the Bible, the Gospel and the Qur'an , or any of them wil show
that this always has happened, and the Prophets are none too happy about
it, and in fact, weep for mankind's stupidity.
But for a child or children to deny the very existence of their Father
witthout Whom they and the Universe could not even exist,is not an
intelligent act.It is not logical.
What religious leaders who missed the latest Divine Messengers and in
some cases the last three to five or more, do in contravention of the
clear laws and ethics laid down by their own Prophets proves nothing
concerning Religion's failure to create good people and great
This certainly does not prove the nonexistence of the Deity.The fact of
war taking place between the followers of these Faiths,proves only that
they have declined in moral force as all things do, necessitating a
renewal, which has, unbeknownst to most of them, happened.
The followers of this Faith are not at war.
However, I do feel it my duty to refute the arguments of those who
blandly and well meaningly enough, may declare from time to time the
nonexistence of God as though it were an established and proven
Anyone who thinks they know such a thing should spend some time on the
Hubble Space Telescope Photo Site,and look ad marvel at the
magnificence, the order, and the mystery of the physical Universe, and
watch the physicists says,'We don't Know why this or that is happening,
we don't understand!But it is happening, here's a photo of it
Puts all this in perspective.Made a believer, the universe, out of
Stephen Hawking.Didn't out of Carl Sagan.
Just goes to show, perspective dictates belief or unbelief.No one is
forced to believe or not to, no one is forced to act in a certain way.
But atheists always have what I feel is a shallow understanding of the
subject of prayer.Prayer is not magic and does not necesarrily bring
about miracles on demand, though what people call miracles happen every
What prayer is, in one sense, is a processs of inner discovery that only
can be understood byone who undertakes it.It has been described as a
ladder by which any soul can ascend to heaven, and heaven defined as
reunion with God, and tha defined as reunion with ones own true self,
which is in the image or reflection, of God.So it's not the simlistic
thing that those who insist on dogmatic materialism try to make it.
But the dojo kun is not a prayer, nor is it Divine in any way.
What prayer will do, coupled with meditation or reflection, ie deep
thought,and putting into action the instructions actually received over
the Ages by Divine Messengers giving Revelations,is to gradually purify
ones motives, empty ones extraneous thought baggage, and focus one on
the most important aspects of life including those after his or her
It will also focus one on the correct perspectives vis a vis his own
life, hs Creator, and his or her fellow human beings, in this world and
in the next.
It will cause one to become less material and more spiritual.If it is
done as intended.If not, it may well be worse than useless, because if
you use it as a justification of behavior that is clearly unproductive
and condemned in those Books of the Messengers, it will bounce back on
you big time.
There's a Law called Conservation of Energy, and that Law applies to
humanity as well as to atoms.In an ethical sense, it could be stated
thusly:'No one gets away with anything."
So, when people state in an effort to disprove Religion's or God;s Truth
and existence,that those followers of it who did wrong have suffered, or
those who do something against it suffer,or things go badly when its
Teachings are ignored or contravened, that only proves the truth of it.
Yet when they also say, that people who go against it have and do kill
people that go according to it,say Gandhi and so forth,this only proves,
again, that those whodeny the truth seek to exterminate it
physically.What then happens?That truth gets greater publicity than it
otherwise ever would have, and a Martin Luther King is raised up, who is
then shot down, and his truth also goes on, and grows.
Now these were human beings, not Prophets, but even so, when an idea is
attacked by killing its holders, you get a million more with those
Nobody ever learns to ignore the people with ideas.
Besides which if it is true, and I believe it is, and have reasons to
believe it, that there are worlds beyond this world, and life goes on in
them, and dreams are one proof of the existence of such
worlds,thenGandhi and King and the others like them, did not die except
physically, and spiritually are gonna be in good shape.
So the atheist argument loses its sting, 'look what happened to poor so
We are all going to die physically some day,its how we live that is
important and what we die for.Maybe where they are now, they aren't so
poor after all.
Now, can we get back to Shotokan karate and what needs to be done to
help its practitioners become more open minded, better karateka?
Because I never start these religion threads. I do however respond to
them, and I believe the arguments of those who simply declare the de
facto nonexistence of anything we cannot sensorially detect,science to
the contrary, should in fact be examined closely and counterbalanced
with logic and reason as well as the testimony of faith.
You have now been "Touched By a Vengel.":-)