What's wrong with the Dojo Kun?

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the dutton family

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May 16, 2001, 6:14:01 AM5/16/01
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OK the most interesting thing I'm seeing in the 'Black belt' thread is
peoples response to the Dojo Kun thing.
I personally have to know it both in English and Japanese, I can see nothing
wrong with it essentially as a code of practice.
I am not necessarily in favour of tradition for tradition's sake - few
things irritate me more than using "because we've always done it this way"
as an excuse.
Nevertheless, is it any different than having a Code of Good Practice at
work? Expectations of Proper Behaviour at school? 10 Commandments in
religion? Accepted rules of behaviour for society (laws)?
You don't necessarily have to "leave your brain at the door" but you do have
to accept certain terms and conditions with almost any undertaking ie.
uniform for work/school, wear a white gi to train karate (bare feet, bow
upon entering etc.) and I think the precepts as given aren't exactly taxing
overbearing or lifestyle altering for the average normal human being (not
that you find many of them in the Dojo :-)
For a point of interest, here is the Dojo Kun as I know it;

- Jinkaku kansei ni tsutomuru koto
(to strive for perfection of character)
- Makoto no michi o mamoru koto
(to defend the paths of truth)
- Doryoku no seishin o yashinau koto
(to foster the spirit of effort)
- Reigi o omonzuru koto
(to honour the principles of etiquette)
- Kekki no yu o imashimuru koto
(to guard against impetuous courage)

Shaun


fin_fa...@webtv.net

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May 16, 2001, 3:47:44 PM5/16/01
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1. Strive for perfection of character.

Karate doesn't help you do this at all. It has nothing whatever to do
with it.Many karate people have very bad characters. Some very high
ranking ones act like spoiled children.

The implication is that someow karate practice, punching, kicking and
blocking,will help you to strive to perfect your character, which may
not be present in the wtriter's mind but is in the practitioner's , is
unfounded.

Religion is for that, karate is not a religion.Karate is a way of life
only for people who make their living teaching it, or for people who
live for nothing else. Personally, I think the second case is sad, the
first, well, been there done that.

2.To defend the paths of truth.'

And those would be?It doesn't say, does it, and again, what does karate
do to defend any truth?This would be the province of science.Karate
isn't science, as witness how many people didn't even try the
experiments we gave on here.It isn't science, it isn't religion, but is
it art?:-)

3.To foster the spirit of effort.

Most karateka never reach shodan, fewer ever become yondan.Most quit
long before they make brown.Fostering the spirit of effort, karate
doesn't make you do this, you do or no one does.And it sn't the purpose
of karate. Karate's actual urpose, is the purpose of the
techniques.Kihon purpose is to become good at kihon, kata's purpose is
to learn techniques of counterroffense to beat upthose who would beat
you up, and kumite's purpose is to beat others up in contest before they
can beat you up.The spirit of effort is not innately fostered by karate
training, though you need it to become good.

4.'To honor the principles of etiquette.'

Not noticeably as far as I can see.
Exception rather than rule, here.

5.'To guard against impetuous courage.'

Or rash actions, perhaps? Again, not noticeably so.

The Dojo Con.

I wrote a better one for the thirty seven chambers, long ago.

But here's a good one.This is from my experience of teaching and
practicing karate, and thirty seven years of martial arts practice.

1.Don't let the stuf run your life.(Too late for everyone here)

2.It's just a hobby.

3.There are better ways to excercise.

4.It won't teach you to fight, really.

5.If you want self defense, take self defense, don't waste your time on
karate.

6.Pay your dues promptly.

7. Sweep and mop the dojo and turn the lights out on the way out.

Hitotsu!

Michael Long

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May 16, 2001, 5:55:14 PM5/16/01
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Karate is not going to change a person into someone that follows the Dojo
Kun...
Who said that?

I don't see anything wrong with the ideas presented in the Dojo Kun.
Many of us have similar idealogy towards their lives. And we see benefits
when we do follow those ideas.

[Dojo Con?? -- not funny]

Mike Long

Jesse Greenawalt

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May 16, 2001, 11:24:22 PM5/16/01
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"Michael Long" <longf...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9dveeq$5ur$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...

> I don't see anything wrong with the ideas presented in the Dojo Kun.
> Many of us have similar idealogy towards their lives. And we see benefits
> when we do follow those ideas.

True. But it's kinda like the televangelist that preaches commandments
while breaking them. It's like, "why should I listen to THIS guy?" Since
karate's fathers had their faults, why not just live by your OWN moral code?
Adopt a point or three of the dojo kun if you wish...or not. But why follow
the code of a hypocrite that doesn't follow his own...


> [Dojo Con?? -- not funny]

I liked it... ;-)

jester


Jake

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May 17, 2001, 7:22:39 AM5/17/01
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On Thu, 17 May 2001 03:24:22 GMT, "Jesse Greenawalt"
<jest...@ptd.net> wrote:


>> [Dojo Con?? -- not funny]
>
>I liked it... ;-)

Old joke around here. Old. The Dojo Con thing has been done many
times. Good for the kids mostly.

-Jake

Paul Tanenbaum

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May 17, 2001, 11:13:12 AM5/17/01
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the entire dutton family collaborated to write in message
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> OK the most interesting thing I'm seeing in the 'Black belt' thread is
> people's response to the Dojo Kun thing.

> I personally have to know it both in English and Japanese, I can see
nothing
> wrong with it essentially as a code of practice.

How is it a code of practice? What does it have to do
with your typical shotokan class?
You sweat, you dance, you bang limbs. Who needs a
dojo kun?

> I am not necessarily in favour of tradition for tradition's sake - few
> things irritate me more than using "because we've always done it this way"
> as an excuse.

You've come to the right place.

> Nevertheless, is it any different than having a Code of Good Practice at
> work? Expectations of Proper Behaviour at school? 10 Commandments in
> religion? Accepted rules of behaviour for society (laws)?

In those other locales, no one demands that you chant your
ethical code on a regular basis like zombies. That makes it
very different.

> You don't necessarily have to "leave your brain at the door"

Hey hey hey - that's copyright infringement!

> ... here is the Dojo Kun as I know it;


>
> - Jinkaku kansei ni tsutomuru koto
> (to strive for perfection of character)
> - Makoto no michi o mamoru koto
> (to defend the paths of truth)
> - Doryoku no seishin o yashinau koto
> (to foster the spirit of effort)
> - Reigi o omonzuru koto
> (to honour the principles of etiquette)
> - Kekki no yu o imashimuru koto
> (to guard against impetuous courage)
> Shaun


I don't speak Japanese, but there's a lot of controversy
over the proper translation. Just as you'd expect from
something that's somewhat vague and culture dependent.

And if we don't have a gold seal translation, if everyone
is entitled to interpret it as he pleases, how much weight
can you attach to it?

---
Paul T.

Paul Tanenbaum

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May 17, 2001, 11:25:48 AM5/17/01
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Michael Long <longf...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9dveeq$5ur$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
> ...

> I don't see anything wrong with the ideas presented in the Dojo Kun.

Neither do I.

But I find it offensive that a karate instructor preaches
morality to me.

Join a tennis club or yacht club. Do you have to recite
the Court Kun or the Marina Kun every time you use
the facilities?

> Many of us have similar ideology towards their lives.


> And we see benefits when we do follow those ideas.

That's fine, but don't get sanctimonious just because
you think your shlong is longer than mine - er, I mean,
just because some guy in pajamas declared you a
higher rank than me.

> [Dojo Con?? -- not funny]

Agreed - as witticisms go, it's not exactly scintillating.

What IS funny is your righteous indignation in
response.
Looks like we hooked a live one, gang!

---
Paul T, dialing in Mr. Long's coordinates on his 20 mm cannon

Jesse Greenawalt

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May 17, 2001, 5:36:26 PM5/17/01
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Sorry. As a newbie to this forum, I guess I'm a "kid" in at least that
respect. That's OK - keeps me young... ;-)

jester


"Jake" <newton...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
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the dutton family

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May 17, 2001, 5:45:32 PM5/17/01
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Thank you all, very enlightening.
I thought the Dojo Con thing was amusing first time I saw it.
Maybe the Dojo Kun has better relevance when translated for children (who
need a little guidance from time to time even if you 'adults' don't)

Try to be a better person.
Be faithful and sincere.
Try hard in everything you do.
Be polite and respectful.
Don't be cruel or violent.

I don't think that this version or the one I published earlier have to be
taken in anyway literally but need to be thought over and considered on
thier pro's, con's and deeper meaning (if any). Even if you end up
discarding them completely at least you have spent some time considering
wether you live your life in a socially acceptable manner, what is a good
way to act, how you would like to be treated, and so on .... ie. you have
considered some ethics - right or wrong and come to a decision.
I don't think that people should be taught methods of violence and combat
(effective or not) without at least an attempt at moral guidance - you have
to admit that there at least a few of them out there that need it.

Shaun

Paul Tanenbaum <ptane...@consultant.com> wrote in message
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the dutton family

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May 17, 2001, 5:49:12 PM5/17/01
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In those other locales, no one demands that you chant your
> ethical code on a regular basis like zombies. That makes it
> very different.


Am I wrong, or do American schoolchildren still recite the Declaration of
Independance in school?
(or did they ever? I may be wrong on this, not being from America)

Shaun

Paul Tanenbaum <ptane...@consultant.com> wrote in message
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Tomu.Michi

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May 17, 2001, 5:59:10 PM5/17/01
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On Wed, 16 May 2001, the dutton family wrote:
..

> OK the most interesting thing I'm seeing in the 'Black belt' thread is
> peoples response to the Dojo Kun thing.
> I personally have to know it both in English and Japanese, I can see nothing
> wrong with it essentially as a code of practice.

There are different ways to wrap a context on this.

What if GF said: "If you want to practice with me
you will...fill in the Dojo Kun thing..."?


Some other people quote the DK as a result.
"If you practice with me you will atain these qualities
...fill in the Dojo Kun thing..."?

I guess that all the contexts might apply at one time
or another.


--
Tomu.Michi
mitch...@NOSPAMcsd.sgi.com

the dutton family

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May 17, 2001, 6:03:21 PM5/17/01
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> In those other locales, no one demands that you chant your
> ethical code on a regular basis like zombies. That makes it
> very different.

I have to apologise to my American friends - I have just sent a post
contesting this and siting that American schoolchildren have to recite the
Declaration of Independance at school. I have had a look around and now
believe it to be the Oath of Allegiance that I mean.
Again I apologise, not wanting to offend any more than necessary, but the
point remains the same.

Shaun.

Paul Tanenbaum <ptane...@consultant.com> wrote in message
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Jesse Greenawalt

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May 17, 2001, 8:08:28 PM5/17/01
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No problem. But some of us didn't recite it after we started thinking about
it (which for me was toward the end of high school). It turns out that it
has been changed from the author's original, and some meaning has been
changed.

jester
www.kicksandstix.com
Gemberling's Martial Arts
Tae Kwon Do & Arnis


"the dutton family" <sdba...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
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Gabriel Brega

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May 18, 2001, 2:00:05 AM5/18/01
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<fin_fa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
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> 1. Strive for perfection of character.
>
> Karate doesn't help you do this at all.

The sentence is not 'do karate and I promise to you that you will achieve.."
it says 'now that you are all sweaty after practice, may I remind you that
you should ..'

The difference is substantial. The dojo-kun does not promise, it
proposes lukewarm and obscure (I can't say whether because of
the translation or because of the original) do-good platitudes.

>
> Religion is for that, karate is not a religion.

Religion does not do much either.

And I wan't just quote the usual unpresentable specimens : the
televangelists,
the Talibans, the Pasdaran, the Hindu/Sikh mess in India, the Hindu/Muslim
mess between Pakistan and India, the European wars of religion, the
Inquisition, the Holy Land madness, etc etc etc.

Religion is based on believing that a transcendent reality and destiny takes
the precedence over immanent reality. If a viable ethics system comes out
of that it is by sheer luck - religion as such is designed to miss.


<snip>

> 3.To foster the spirit of effort.
>
> Most karateka never reach shodan, fewer ever become yondan.Most quit
> long before they make brown.Fostering the spirit of effort, karate
> doesn't make you do this, you do or no one does.And it sn't the purpose
> of karate. Karate's actual urpose, is the purpose of the
> techniques.Kihon purpose is to become good at kihon, kata's purpose is
> to learn techniques of counterroffense to beat upthose who would beat
> you up, and kumite's purpose is to beat others up in contest before they
> can beat you up.The spirit of effort is not innately fostered by karate
> training, though you need it to become good.

From the above I understand that you don't believe that training one's
capability for 'effort' has any value. Therefore I would not be surprised
if you never talked about such a useless concept with your students.

I, on the other hand, believe that training should also target one's
willpower and capability for 'effort'. Would you be surprised if
I introduced that concept with the rest of the instruction ?

>
> 4.'To honor the principles of etiquette.'
>
> Not noticeably as far as I can see.
> Exception rather than rule, here.

Is the concept :

a) noxious, and therefore to be avoided
b) not transmittable by a nursery rhyme alone, but worth mentioning
c) to be dealt with in other ways


Gabriel


Dion Risborg

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May 17, 2001, 11:36:08 PM5/17/01
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To all of the respondence,
Part of developing good Karate is to develop good character. Without good
character your attitude only allows you to perceive part of the big picture.
Being judgemental or having a 'single minded' approach distorts your
interpretation of what you see. Without the 'Dojo Kun', all you have is
movements and your training becomes shallow. In having a poor approach,
higher level instructors will avoid assisting you progress.
But, you will still believe that you are right and no advice will make any
difference.
Good luck.

Dion.

"the dutton family" <sdba...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message

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fin_fa...@webtv.net

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May 18, 2001, 2:54:47 AM5/18/01
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But when Paul T. isn't trolling on physics threads, he goes for the
gusto o the duton family.

That's why we keep him around here.

Only a twenty, Paul?I thought you'd at least bring to bear a 108.

'Looks like we hooked a live one!'

Hee! Hee!

Yes it does.Now you can pull his leg some.:-)

George Winter

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May 18, 2001, 8:36:24 AM5/18/01
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On Fri, 18 May 2001 00:08:28 GMT, "Jesse Greenawalt"
<jest...@ptd.net> wrote:

>No problem. But some of us didn't recite it after we started thinking about
>it (which for me was toward the end of high school). It turns out that it
>has been changed from the author's original, and some meaning has been
>changed.

Excerpt from http://www.vineyard.net/vineyard/history/pledge.htm
The Pledge of Allegiance
A Short History
by Dr. John W. Baer
Copyright 1992 by Dr. John W. Baer

In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state
superintendents of education in the National Education Association. As
its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools'
quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He structured
this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag
salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.'

His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag
and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible,
with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word,
'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of
education on his committee were against equality for women and African
Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ]

Dr. Mortimer Adler, American philosopher and last living founder of
the Great Books program at Saint John's College, has analyzed these
ideas in his book, The Six Great Ideas. He argues that the three great
ideas of the American political tradition are 'equality, liberty and
justice for all.' 'Justice' mediates between the often conflicting
goals of 'liberty' and 'equality.'

In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership
of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution,
changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United
States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was
ignored.

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added
the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a
patriotic oath and a public prayer.

--

George
_____________________________________________________________________
George Winter gwi...@q-sys.com
Qsys Ltd.
Information Systems Consulting

Simon Slavin

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May 18, 2001, 5:58:38 PM5/18/01
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In article <JpsM6.16173$zq2.1...@news1.cableinet.net>,

"the dutton family" <sdba...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:

> I can see nothing
> wrong with it essentially as a code of practice.

Nothing wrong with it -- even your translation is more faithful
than usual -- it just has nothing to do with Karate. That's
just my humble opinion. If you'd like to persue the subject on
this group then I highly recommend that you read the following
two web pages before doing so.

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/heresy/dojokun.html
http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/101/09_character.html

Once you've read them, feel free to discuss away.

Simon.
--
http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk | A truly secure password algorithm also has
No junk email please. | to check for the Post-It Note (TM) on the
| monitor. -- Jim Esler
Mac OS X. Because making Unix user-friendly is easier than debugging Windows.

fin_fa...@webtv.net

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May 19, 2001, 3:37:12 AM5/19/01
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'Am I wrong,'

Very.

'or do American schoolchildren still recite the Declaration of
Independece in school?'

We never did.The Devlaration of Independece is studied, as its when the
Americans told you lot to take a well earned hike:-), but bygones
bygones.

No, it isn't chanted in schools.

Used tochant the Pledge of allegiance but not anynore, it says God in it
and we can't, have, that, can we?

In the UK you have a State Reigion, in America we have separation of
Church and State.

Which has been interpreted to mean no mention of God in school.

In England you have a Monarch and Royal Family and Nobility.

But you have a Government that can dissappear in a single lost vote of
Confidence, and no Constitution guaranteeing otherwise.

In the US we have no Monarch, no roals, and class is decided by how much
money you have regardless of how you get it.

But our government is backed with a Constitution and it doesn't matter
who runs it, it still goes on and on and on...

One member of our parliament, or Congress, has been a member since 1937
and an elected one at that.

Of course, you have the House of Lords.And the Magna Carta.

So, it's a trade off.

And nothing to do with a Dojo kun.

fin_fa...@webtv.net

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May 19, 2001, 3:46:59 AM5/19/01
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'If a viable ethics system comes out of that( religion) it is by sheer
luck.'

Nonsense. Its by Divine revelation, and every religion that is a
religion has a viable ethics system, and it is the same one.

What a coincidence.

Don't confuse a religion with its adherents, that is sloppy thinking.

That would be like saying, karate is the people who do it. It is not,
its a set of techniques.

Relgion is a set of teachings, I won't argue the origin with you
further, but it sn't a hit or miss proposition.

When people really live according to the clear ethical precepts of
religion, you get some fine human beings.Surely you must have met at
least one such sometime in your life.

When they don't, and abuse those teachings and go opposite to them, even
if they are religious leaders, they really suck.

So, yes, religion Is for perfecting or developing character, and yes, it
stems from a faith in a transcendent Being or Truth, and humanity is
told of it by someone who claims to be a representative thereof.

Many people claim to be who aren't, and many who are, may not be
believed.

People being people, that is always the way of it.

The ones who really are, give rise to a spiritualized civilization over
a eriod of centuries, and leave in their wake some really beneficial
things, , and yes, some of their followers perpetrate horrors, but they
would have anyway.

Some perpetrate horrors, who are not religious, either.

And some do good who are not.

But saying that no good came from , say, Christianity or Islam or
Buddhism or whatever, is simply not the case.

Not much good on the other hand came from, say, Hitler- oooops!Thread's
over.

Jorge Adriano

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May 19, 2001, 9:00:14 AM5/19/01
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> 1. Strive for perfection of character.
>
> Karate doesn't help you do this at all. It has nothing whatever to do
> with it.Many karate people have very bad characters. Some very high
> ranking ones act like spoiled children.

Yes I agree, with this last sentence, but that has nothing to do with it

> The implication is that someow karate practice, punching, kicking and
> blocking,will help you to strive to perfect your character, which may
> not be present in the wtriter's mind but is in the practitioner's , is
> unfounded.

It was present in the writers mind. Have you read anything by Gichin
Funakoshi?
The whole point of is writings is that karate should not be only about
punching, kicking and blocking.
Now if that is the way you have trained it, then of course, karate as you
know it as nothing to do with any of the ideas present in the Dojo Kun (no
matter which translation you use).

> Religion is for that, karate is not a religion.Karate is a way of life
> only for people who make their living teaching it, or for people who
> live for nothing else. Personally, I think the second case is sad, the
> first, well, been there done that.

It changed my life in all sorts of ways, it changed the way I react to
everyday situations in a very deep way, I've met people who have changed a
lot due to karate practice too. I don't make a living teaching it and karate
is just a small part of my life.

Now, by reading the remaining of your coments, it seemed to me that you were
only saying "no one practices karate that way".
Well the way I see it, most people don't, and if that is what you are
refering too then you are right.
If I had trained it just to have fun and learn some punches and kicks it
would not made much diference to me and I would not think so highly of
karate or most martial arts as I do now.


> 1.Don't let the stuf run your life.(Too late for everyone here)

I agree, beeing obcessed with karate or anything else is not a good thing

> 2.It's just a hobby.

You just take your point of view and make it true for everyone else.
Why should it be just a hobby?

> 3.There are better ways to excercise.

Probably are... then again it also depends what you are trying to achieve
with all the exercise, and it depends on the individual.

> 4.It won't teach you to fight, really.

LOL

> 5.If you want self defense, take self defense, don't waste your time on
> karate.

Well, I have an idea of what I should expect from Karate or Aikido,
tai-chi, kick boxing, but self defense? What is that?
Self defense is a pretty vague concept. You can for instance use some
ju-jitsu stuff, not teach the basics properly and call it self-defence, for
instance.

J.A.


Michael Long

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May 19, 2001, 9:39:11 AM5/19/01
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I have a son in First grade. He recites the pledge of Allegiance every
morning.
Where did you say that the kids don't recite the pledge of allegiance in
elementary?

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the dutton family

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May 19, 2001, 6:29:14 PM5/19/01
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Simon Slavin <sla...@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost> wrote in message
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>
> Nothing wrong with it -- even your translation is more faithful
> than usual -

Thank you.

- it just has nothing to do with Karate.

Oh yeah? Who wrote it then? It may have nothing to do with the Karate that
you practice, it may have no relevance today whatsoever, but you can't say
that it has nothing to do with Karate.

> If you'd like to persue the subject on
> this group then I highly recommend that you read the following
> two web pages before doing so.
>
> http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/heresy/dojokun.html
> http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/101/09_character.html
>

I have already, but thank you very much. To be quite honest , I'm more
comfortable keeping what I think to myself but it has been intruiging and
entertaining to read other peoples opinions.
Thank you for yours.

Shaun.

the dutton family

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May 19, 2001, 6:34:14 PM5/19/01
to
Please see the post that I sent 14 mins after writing the one that wound
you up so much, fff.
I do correct myself and apologise for the mistake after making an effort to
check my facts.
Granted, maybe I should check before I write but at least I did it.
Incidentally, the post was sent in as a reply to a comment about 'chanting'
the Dojo Kun like 'zombies' at the end of a class. You are right, it has
nothing to do with it in itself.
Also, my club doesn't chant or even speak the Dojo Kun in class, we're just
required to know it.

Shaun
(P.S. was this a good enough troll for you, fin?)


<fin_fa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:25466-3B...@storefull-133.iap.bryant.webtv.net...

Gabriel Brega

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May 20, 2001, 12:35:47 AM5/20/01
to

<fin_fa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:25466-3B...@storefull-133.iap.bryant.webtv.net...

> 'If a viable ethics system comes out of that( religion) it is by sheer
> luck.'
>
> Nonsense. Its by Divine revelation, and every religion that is a
> religion has a viable ethics system, and it is the same one.
>
> What a coincidence.
>
> Don't confuse a religion with its adherents, that is sloppy thinking.

LOL ! Please enlighten me on the positive effect of God's Divine will,
religions, prayer, to avoid human errors and prevent or only mitigate
human suffering by fostering positive ethical behaviour and choices.

What did the Lutherans, the Orthodox, the Catholics do in the '30s ? If you
don't know it, they were almost all blessing the battle flags, the pogroms
etc.
And what about the Mufti ?

What do chaplains of all denominations do when the powers to be order people
to kill each other ?

Religious ethics is at best conservation - at worst divisive bigotry.

See - please - the Middle East, the Indian Partition (poor Gandhi !), the
Yugoslavian mess, just to name some recent garbage.

Sloppy thinking ? Nah - prove that it is not as I say , Sir - and to the
point, please, do not promise me another miracle by year's end like last
year- otherwise God knows what else will happen in the Middle East.

We are all we've got, John, sorry to tell you.

Gabriel


fin_fa...@webtv.net

unread,
May 20, 2001, 4:09:56 AM5/20/01
to
'Where did you say that most kids don't recite the pledge of allegiance
in elementary schools?'

Isn't there a federaol Law against it now?Since it does now mention God?

If not, hooray for common sense!

When I was in elementary school, we used to recite the pledge, and the
Twenty-Third Psalm every day.

That of course is from the Jewish scripture that makes up two thirds of
the Christian Bible as well.Though many Christians don't realize that.

I woudn't mind if they recited something from a different faith each
week, and on the days when the rotation completed, recited the Agnostics
Creed:'I Don't Know!'Uttered in a plaintive tone.

Then they could try on the Atheists Confession of Unfaith:-).We know
that God does not exist, and we take this as an article of our Faith I
mean Unfaith.':-)

Reminds me of when they werre going to allow optional non denominational
prayer in schools, and in the cartoon strip, I think it was Geech, they
showed a tracher's voice in a word balloon saying, :'Okay Billy, now
lead the class in optional nondenominational prayer for today, and Billy
begins:'O Lord Buddha, guide us all in the Noble Eightfold Path...'word
balloon says:'Hold it.":-)

See, this isn't the same America as it was in 1958, and maybe it wasn't,
then, either.

So if you have prayer in schools, can you limit it to one religion's
prayers when you have students of any and every Faith in there?

I do remember something else about that time; no one was shooting anyone
in grade school, junior high or even high school then.

Prayer in schools has never been needed as much as it is now.But whose
prayers?

Difficult question, related to the dojo kun as follows.

If we are going at the beginning of a karate class to say a creed, why
use one that was relevant to some Okinawan or japanese person but
doesn't have a standard or agreed upon translation or even meaning in
English?

Use a better creed.Here's yet another, this time serious.

1.Karate is my hobby.I shall not fantasize about getting into fights
with motorcycle gangs and winning, and if I do, I shall not try to enact
that scenario.

2.Karate will not make me into a masked and caped Avenger, not even a
Vengel.It may be fun to read stories or watch movies where a karateka
takes out an entire town full of bad guys but really, the first gun punk
will kill you.

3.karate is either done for social reasons, for sport reasons, or for
self defense or fitness reasons.It is not done to make you into a real
world fighting machine.Other disciplines are required for that, which
while at one time taught as or with karate, are not now.So forget about
it.

4.Karate is not a philosophy, a religion, or a science( man is it not a
science), nor is it particularly a way of life unless you teach kaate
professionally, do it as a hobby, married a karateka, teach it to your
children, and all your friends are in karate, then it is your way of
life, but it isn't A way of life.It isn't really a Way at all.It doesn't
develop character, yours or others, you do that, or no one does.

5.Karate is not worth getting injured for,it is not worth being
humiliated, it is not worth submitting to some one else in all things
for, it is not worth your self respect, your freedom or your
beliefs.Karate is worth precisely and only as much as you want it to be
worth on any particular day. Funakoshi said, the technique exists for
the man, not the man for the technique. That's Funakoshi, author of the
dojo kun and nijukun.

6.Karate is not a person, it is a body of techniques. Karate has no
purpose other than the purpose of those techniques, which is to evade,
control and stop attackers .The kata are the repository of the
techniques , and appear to be totally counterroffensive, not
aggressive.Thats the only purpose of karate.

7.The inventors of karate did not give us an instructional manual of
applications.The appiclations can be found however through using the
techniques left y the Cineseand japanese arts which passed on two person
techniques, and also by the manuals that Were left by the founders of
Kungfu, Chinese literacy is wonderful.The Bubishi is a Chinese manual
that, while much maligned, historically is known to have been regarded
as a sort of Bible of technique and application by all the early
Okinawan masters that did start the styles in existence today.

Maybe that';s why the Okinawans didn't leave us a manual, the one they
had was good enough.

And best of all it has pictures.

There's your dojo kun.

fin_fa...@webtv.net

unread,
May 20, 2001, 4:16:17 AM5/20/01
to
'We're just required to know it( dojo kun.)

Some of the Okinawan styles use the eight precepts of the Bubishi as
their dojo kun.

At least those make sense, but only if you study the concepts of Kungfu.

How about this dojo kun?

1. I will pay my dues on time.
2. I will obey my instructors ewithout question.
3. I will teach class free of charge for years, as it is an honor to do
so. Ommmmm!
4.I will defend the honor of the school by entering every event in every
tournament
every time.Whether I am interested in competition or no.
5. I will clean the dojo every day, for free.
6. In all these ways I will perfect my character and will never ask why
my instructors have not perfected theirs.
7. I will be a good little slavey.I will swallow the doo con without
question.

What about that, then? Eh?
Good one, innit?
:-)

John Kraft

unread,
May 21, 2001, 3:11:42 AM5/21/01
to

>- Jinkaku kansei ni tsutomuru koto
>(to strive for perfection of character)

Just for fun, I asked my Japanese tutor (yes, she is from Japan) to
translate this sentence. She said that the word "perfection" is
nowhere in that sentence. She said that "completion" would be a much
better term to use.

$0.02

John Kraft
John Kraft
Central Illinois Shotokan

fin_fa...@webtv.net

unread,
May 22, 2001, 1:25:32 AM5/22/01
to
'Religious ehics is at best conservation- at worst ... bigotry.'

Gabe- forget what priests did, they are not religion.In fact, nowhere in
the gospel will you find any ordination of priests.

Try the Sermon on the Mount, and the ten commandments, the Eightfold
path of the Buddha, the Divine Qualities given in the Bhagavad-Gita, the
teachings of each religious Founder on how people are to treat each
other, regardless of how some people at some times as I say, disregard
or contravene these teachings.

These are religious ethics.

'Prove it is not as I say, Sir-'

No need to. People abuse teachings of religion, but others abide by
them. These are fine and good and decent human beings, who do not make
the headlines because they do Not kill, steal, lie, cheat, or commit
various kinds of adultery.

'do not promkise me another miracle by year's end like last year..'

As I admitted publicly on here, I wqas wrong about this, but my Faith
was not, it doesn't say there would be world peace by now, but does say
there would be e unity of nations established, and this has happened,
through the riple Millennium Forum, ngo's at the Un, the Milennium
Religion Summit, and the Millennium Summit with world leaders.The
Millennnium Declaration was ratified by all nations participating, but
it was left up to each nation to put its clauses into effect.

Go to UN website and look under Millennium Declaraton to see.

The reality of what I was talking about, has happened.But it wasn't the
stage I thought it would be. Wars are stil going on, and will continue
to, until mankind reaches that stage.

The only one who made a mistake then, was me.I apologized, and do so
again, for my misunderstanding of what in fact, the Writings of my Faith
Did say, and what they say, is in fact, what occurred.

'We're all we've got, John , sorry to tell you."

Gabe, I'm happy to tell you, we're not.:-)
But we are going to have to 'd it ourselves', for the most part, and I
always said so, except for certain instnces of Divine intervention in
the processes of human history mainly connected with the appearance on
earth of Divine Relgious Founders,who then give their Teachings, train
followers, and let mankind do as well as they will with what they are
given.

Prove to you, Sir, 'tis not as you say?Well, in matter such as these, I
can but try.Due to my imperfect scholarship and incomplete understanding
of many matters earthly as well as heavenly, I may make many mistakes,
and you may take these as proof that God does not exist.

I on the other hand take my existence, the fact that I have intelligence
and free will to make such mistakes, as a proof that He does.

Still, let me try my humble best here: All that is good in human society
can be traced back, if justice be served, to impulses derived from
religion, wherther prehistoric or historic.

The very concept of good and evil, right and wrong, comes directly or
indirectly from the influence of the Divine Prophets Who, since time
immemorial ,have been successiveley sent to mankind.

Yes,m Their Teachingds have been abused and distorted, and They
themselves killed by those to whom they brought, Prometheus'like, the
gifts of knowledge, wisdoms, faith, and love, charity, courtes,
truthfulness, trustowrthiness, and all those other virtues that
distinguish man from animal when they are aqcuired, or instilled into us
as children.

The very fact of the coherence and development of human society,
historically, from the family, the tribe, the city-state, the nation, to
the present stage of an interdependent world, however precariously our
situation may develop in the near or farther future,illustrates that
something more than man's own hit or miss and mostly miss, methods are
coming into play here, often in spite of us.

The existence of Hospitals, colleges, charitable organizations, of
Universities,of medical science itself, of literature, art and history,
all are attributable to the civilizing influences of Religion.

The Dark Ages of Europe, attributable to Chrisianity having by 400 A,D,
fallen into the hands of the Priests,were indeed inlllumined and
enlightened by the light of the Rennaissance, attributable directly to
the inflence of the bright, though also troubled, Civilization of Islam.

Even during the Dark Ages, the Monks and some priests, also established
and promoted education and learning, healing clinics, and many
charitable acticvities, the Bendictines come to mind,and the Monk(
actually a Deacon) Alcuin as well. who influenced education in the
Empire of Charlemagne as well as in EnGlands Kingdoms.For ever bad
religionist you can show, there are good ones as well, and some were
very good indeed.

Presently, it is imposible to be anywhere in the US, without a Salvation
Army,a Goodwill store, food pantries and kitchens operated by religious
people and organizations,and many are the uan beings of faith whom I
have encountered in my life, whohave embodieed the moral and ethical
teachings of the Founders of their Faiths. If you truly have never met
even one of these people, who has had any such influence upon your life
or of those who surround you, I am truly sorry that you have missed this
experience, but I would be surprised if you have not.

And yet you think us deluded.

But let's say for argument's sake that youa are correct.Let's say there
is no God and all the Prophets were deluded but in many cases sincere
people, and that Religion comes from human mind alone.Let's say that
we're all we got, as you believe.

Pay, how are we going to live? According to what man made code of
e3thics are we to guide outr lives and those of our children, and the
life of society?

Check out what each Religion has tomoffer, and each philosophy, and you
yourself, and Funakoshi, and see if one of those codes, or the common
ethics underlying all Religion, is best to live by.

And them if ewe are all we got, live by it. If as you believe man is
just a meat machine, who is ephemeral, why live lany other way than the
most sublime ways ever presented to man?

Why waste it all?Why not 'be all you can be"? Not in the army, but in
life?

As for God not existing, I gave an experiment that requires one year for
anyone to do, to find that out for themselves. Did you do it? Do you
want to?

Show you how.Take the Prayer that is the whole seventeenth chapter of
Saint John, in the Bible, which Prayer is said to have been uttered by
Christ Himself, and use it every day or night, for a year.If at the end
of that year you still don't believe in God, fine.Guess you don'yt. But
idf you don't try the experiment scenteifically with an open mind, I
will have to say, your Faith is Atheism and your creed 'there is no
God.':-)

And that your faith is as blind as that of any other believer in the
earth who never checks their faith.

Prove it? The proof is in the pudding. Use that Prayer, or the Lord's
Prayer, or a Psalm of your choice, or the Gayatri of Hinduism, or the
great Mantra of Buddhism, or the Rush'ma of Sabeanism, or the Vohu Mano
or Ashem Vohu of Zoroastrianism, or the Salat of Islam, or the Shema of
Judaism, or the Obligtory or any other Prayer of the Baha'i Faith, they
are available on the Internet, all of them, in English Translation,,take
your pick.

Use it for a year in the morning and the evening, and see if you're the
same after one year.


And world peace is not going to happen by m,iracle, nor did I ever say
it would. It will happen by an act of humanity's collective will,
expressed by its governmental leaders.And this is what my Faith does say
clearly and plainly, it is up to the peples and governments of the world
to bring this about. In stages, it has been moving towards consummation,
for quite some time now, from the first act of international
arbitration, done betwen the US and Great Britain for reparations after
the Civil War in 1867,the increae in arbitration, the formation of the
League of Nations , the subsequent formation of the United Nations, and
the promulgation of the Millenium Declarations subsequent to the entire
Decade of the Nineties having seen world summits on various aspects of
global life.

Yes Sir, you can say that the world is in a state of crisis, and so it
is; and so is a woman when pregnant, but the world, will yield as a
child of this crisis, first and by stages, a major one of which has just
past, a politivcal peace, and then, over a course of centrueis and even
millennnia, a spiritualzed and united human race, a world commonwealth
identified with the Christ-Promised Kingdom of God on earth, and
finally, a world civilization that will make the Renaissance look like
darkness in comparison.

So, can I prove to you that people have no free will and can and wil not
screw things up at any and every opportunity? No, I can not, but I never
said that.

What I did say, was that, blood and tears and toil and sweat, conflicts,
and mistakes will be made, but mankind wil progress.As it has been
progressing. However, the current problems it faces are due to its
throwing the baby of Religion out with the bathwater of abuse of power
wielded by the leaders of some of those faiths and also, bby the
political leaders, who often only think of their own advantage, or put
their own nation above all others as if by Divine Right that in fact,
was never given.
It is in fact the very prinvciples, first principles if you will,. given
us by the Founders of the various Religions and intellectually expounded
by Divine philosophers( philosophers believing in God) and by statesmen
who selflessly devote themdselves to the welfare of the entire human
race, and such do exist,you mentioned Gandhi, and others did and do,hat
we may find solutions, workabe and not Utopian, for every problem facing
mankind.

In fqaxt, there are spiritual principles or what some call human values,
by which, if we raise the discussion to the level of principle, every
human problem can be solved.

But pessimism and doubt can paralyze the rocess, and do, and thus retard
the inevitable consummation thereof.

As can a belief in mankind's fallen position or condition, also a
misinterpretation of religious leaders which has now been swllowed by
the materialists and atheists, but which even the founders of humanism
such as Erasmus, or of socialism or other movements, nor of capitalism,
originally held.All believed in progress.

But who is it that can deliver?

To start with, we should stop fighting.

fin_fa...@webtv.net

unread,
May 22, 2001, 3:56:42 AM5/22/01
to
Plus too, and I feel I must say this,the proof of the existence of a
Creator, is the creation.

To say that we are all we got, as has been said, without offering the
slightest proof of that, or any experiment which could deemonstrate a
probability of this being so, is a cop out, and logically indefensible.

But as to proofs of exisence, if I see a painting , I know a painter
exists.

If I see a bridge or a city, a builder exists, even though I may not see
him or any other trace of him.

When I see the Universe in all its order and wonder, and the ecological
system of earth in all its functionality, am I to be so arrogant that I
should believe it all just happened?

That is indefensible.

Here's another. You can say all you want to about followers of Relgions
corrupting them, but when you look at the lives of the Founders and
Their teachings, after the time when they made known where they came
from and Whom They represented
then you get a different reality there.

If the Bridge Inspector shows up to see, every now and again, ow people
have been taking care of His Bridge,and the people crap on the Bridge,
how is that the fault of the Builder, or of the inspector, Whom the
people kill, torture, poison or exile?

It isn't. Also a logical fallacy.

If you want to say that Religion has permitted people to do wrong, that
is nonsense.Religion does not, nor does God, remove free will, He gives
it to us.

If you would instead say, people do wrong in the Name of God and of
Religion, by their own choice and will, that is correct, and a perusal
of even the Bible, the Gospel and the Qur'an , or any of them wil show
that this always has happened, and the Prophets are none too happy about
it, and in fact, weep for mankind's stupidity.

But for a child or children to deny the very existence of their Father
witthout Whom they and the Universe could not even exist,is not an
intelligent act.It is not logical.

What religious leaders who missed the latest Divine Messengers and in
some cases the last three to five or more, do in contravention of the
clear laws and ethics laid down by their own Prophets proves nothing
concerning Religion's failure to create good people and great
civilizations.

This certainly does not prove the nonexistence of the Deity.The fact of
war taking place between the followers of these Faiths,proves only that
they have declined in moral force as all things do, necessitating a
renewal, which has, unbeknownst to most of them, happened.

The followers of this Faith are not at war.

However, I do feel it my duty to refute the arguments of those who
blandly and well meaningly enough, may declare from time to time the
nonexistence of God as though it were an established and proven
scientific fact.

Anyone who thinks they know such a thing should spend some time on the
Hubble Space Telescope Photo Site,and look ad marvel at the
magnificence, the order, and the mystery of the physical Universe, and
watch the physicists says,'We don't Know why this or that is happening,
we don't understand!But it is happening, here's a photo of it
happening!'

Puts all this in perspective.Made a believer, the universe, out of
Stephen Hawking.Didn't out of Carl Sagan.

Just goes to show, perspective dictates belief or unbelief.No one is
forced to believe or not to, no one is forced to act in a certain way.

But atheists always have what I feel is a shallow understanding of the
subject of prayer.Prayer is not magic and does not necesarrily bring
about miracles on demand, though what people call miracles happen every
day.

What prayer is, in one sense, is a processs of inner discovery that only
can be understood byone who undertakes it.It has been described as a
ladder by which any soul can ascend to heaven, and heaven defined as
reunion with God, and tha defined as reunion with ones own true self,
which is in the image or reflection, of God.So it's not the simlistic
thing that those who insist on dogmatic materialism try to make it.

But the dojo kun is not a prayer, nor is it Divine in any way.

What prayer will do, coupled with meditation or reflection, ie deep
thought,and putting into action the instructions actually received over
the Ages by Divine Messengers giving Revelations,is to gradually purify
ones motives, empty ones extraneous thought baggage, and focus one on
the most important aspects of life including those after his or her
physical death.

It will also focus one on the correct perspectives vis a vis his own
life, hs Creator, and his or her fellow human beings, in this world and
in the next.

It will cause one to become less material and more spiritual.If it is
done as intended.If not, it may well be worse than useless, because if
you use it as a justification of behavior that is clearly unproductive
and condemned in those Books of the Messengers, it will bounce back on
you big time.

There's a Law called Conservation of Energy, and that Law applies to
humanity as well as to atoms.In an ethical sense, it could be stated
thusly:'No one gets away with anything."

So, when people state in an effort to disprove Religion's or God;s Truth
and existence,that those followers of it who did wrong have suffered, or
those who do something against it suffer,or things go badly when its
Teachings are ignored or contravened, that only proves the truth of it.

Yet when they also say, that people who go against it have and do kill
people that go according to it,say Gandhi and so forth,this only proves,
again, that those whodeny the truth seek to exterminate it
physically.What then happens?That truth gets greater publicity than it
otherwise ever would have, and a Martin Luther King is raised up, who is
then shot down, and his truth also goes on, and grows.

Now these were human beings, not Prophets, but even so, when an idea is
attacked by killing its holders, you get a million more with those
ideas.

Nobody ever learns to ignore the people with ideas.

Besides which if it is true, and I believe it is, and have reasons to
believe it, that there are worlds beyond this world, and life goes on in
them, and dreams are one proof of the existence of such
worlds,thenGandhi and King and the others like them, did not die except
physically, and spiritually are gonna be in good shape.

So the atheist argument loses its sting, 'look what happened to poor so
and so.'

We are all going to die physically some day,its how we live that is
important and what we die for.Maybe where they are now, they aren't so
poor after all.

Now, can we get back to Shotokan karate and what needs to be done to
help its practitioners become more open minded, better karateka?

Because I never start these religion threads. I do however respond to
them, and I believe the arguments of those who simply declare the de
facto nonexistence of anything we cannot sensorially detect,science to
the contrary, should in fact be examined closely and counterbalanced
with logic and reason as well as the testimony of faith.

You have now been "Touched By a Vengel.":-)

the dutton family

unread,
May 22, 2001, 5:48:46 AM5/22/01
to
It is nice to find someone so optimistic about the future of our planet and
race.
I do go through periods of deep pessimism for our future - not nice when
you've brought four children into the world.
As far as religion goes, I can only speak from my own experience.
My wife and children are Catholic and all I see in that religion is the
reinforcement of guilt, fear and punishment as incentives for right living -
they are taught in school that the devil is almost physically real and that
Hell is a real place (eternity is a long time!). So that's out as far as I
can see.
As a child, I was forced to be a Methodist, I cannot recall a single
inspiring moment, the one thing it did give me is the fact that I've read
the Bible many times.
As a teenager, my best friend became very heavily involved with Baptists - I
have to admit that this was one of the few times when Christian worship ever
became attractive - it was fun. Nevertheless it was still worship based and
essentially dictational.
Over recent times, I have become increasingly attracted to Buddhism and have
read many books on the Dharma and the Buddhas life. The advice to not dwell
too much on divine concepts that are beyond comprehension and to concentrate
on following the path to personal enlightenment in order to, by small steps,
contribute to the eventual enlightenment of the entire human race tends to
make more sense to me. Buddha's request not to worship him but to follow
him, not to take anything that he said as gospel but to try it, see if it
works, accept or discard teachings as you find them, seems more attractive
and sensible.
I don't completely disregard anything, everything you read was essentially
written by a human being regardless of what they claim their inspiration
came from. It is there for you to consider, reflect, meditate on, adopt or
disregard according to how you interpret it and how it relates according to
your personal experience.
Everything is relative to the world you personally live in which is
different for everyone as everyone sees and interprets thier senses
differently, have different thoughts and emotions, different influences.
I'm not pro or con any religion, if something seems to have relevance, I'll
consider it.
Surely the Dojo Kun is worthy of a little thought, consideration, and
meditation. Is it relevant ? Everyone has thier own answer.

Shaun


<fin_fa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:28487-3B...@storefull-134.iap.bryant.webtv.net...

Tazman

unread,
May 22, 2001, 4:02:20 PM5/22/01
to
> Some perpetrate horrors, who are not religious, either.
>
It is possible to kill someone and still remain a Buddhist! There's a
little braintease for ya'.

My view is that faith is more important then religion. Religion is
just the middleman that delivers the philosophy.

I have a major problem with Western Religion! We have been
brainwashed to believe that there is an evil portion to ourselves that
must be 'cleansed' by some external god (usually dressed in ropes at
the front). The yanking of the evil strings or the thought of more
being heaped on drives humans to ruin. The guy at the front is
supposed to be broke and not gettin' any....and I'm supposed to follow
him without question?

Compare that to Eastern Philosophy and the concept of Faith. I am
innately good and it's the external world that clouds my true self and
causes crap. Relationships, with yourself and others, is the key. No
penalty for pleasures.

I find it funny that people can derive so many different meanings from
one sentence, whether it be the Bible or the Dojo Kun. Any person of
reasonable common sense knows that they are just a glorified how-to
live your life in *insert your own number* steps. The moment you try
and break the concept out it loses it's meaning. Kind of like the
meaning behind a Koan being more important then the Koan itself.

Everybody knows what Jesus, Gandhi, Buddha, G.F, Tony Robbins, etc are
talking about....get your own ticket to happiness, and put that hand
you have sticking palm up in front of you to good use helping someone
else. That improves character, doesn't kill anybody, takes
effort.....

Scott

fin_fa...@webtv.net

unread,
May 22, 2001, 5:56:01 PM5/22/01
to
'Shaun says:'It is nice to find someone so optimistic about the future
of our planet and our race.'

Well, we all have free will.We can choose to be optimistic about things,
or we can choose to be pessimistic about things or we can be fatalists.

Since we all have free will, being fatalists is not, imo, a wise chice.

Being a pessimist is just a bringdown.

Heck, we made it thorough World Wars I and II, and mankind is beter off
now than they were then,and despite the very serious and grave dangers
facing humanity, most of which we created ourselves by the misuse of our
talents,the odds favor us making it based on past experience alone.

You mention Catholicism and Methodism.The one, you mention, reinforces
guilt, and yes, it so seems to do.The other gave you at least the
experience of reading the Bible several times.

What I would point out to you there, is that both of those are
denoinations of, or sects of, Christianity, and neither teaches exactly
what the New Testament or the Old teaches, and the emphasis varies from
one Church and one Priest or Minister to another, let alone from one
denomination to another.

What denomination was Christ a member of?

You also mention Baptist , and worship based and dictatorial.

Well, Religion Is worship-based, by definition,. See my definition of
prayer in a previous post.

As far as dictatorial, I am afraid that mankind has made things so, as
opposed to what they originalty were.Jesus and the others, did not Make
or force people to follow them, that is supposed to be an act of one's
own will,and Jesus even said, My yoke is light.'It is man who makes it
heavy.

But those are reasons why I am myself not a Christian.Though I do
believe in God and Jesus, and all the Founders of all the Religions that
were in fact Divinely revealed.

You mention Buddhism.Buddha;s original teachings may not be the same as
what has survived to the present day.See the inscription of King Ashoka,
Buddhist monarch of the Maauryas in India, in the fourth Century B.C,.
which predate any known Buddhis scriptures still extant by at least
three hundred years.

Ashoka who had studied and lived with the Buddhist monks for at least
one year to learn speaks of God and Gods, prayer, fasting, good deeds
and charity, kindness to animals, justice, religious tolerance, and so
does the Buddha if you look, but Ashoka also speaks of the purpose of
Religion as doing good in this life and going to heaven in the next. No
reicnarnation, no nirvana, none of that I won't say one way or the
other.

It seems the Buddha said His Faith would only be pure for five hundred
years, and Ashoka's inscriptions are the only Buddhist writings from
that time period that exist,though he mentions others.

It seems the Buddhist Priests either corrupted or forgot their own
teahings at one point.There is even a tle they wrote about when only one
monk remained because of wars and other disasters, who knew the
teachings. Maybe none did.

We know from the Torah that the Jewish people lost it and even forgot it
existed for the period of the Babylonian exile, and Ezra found it under
the floorboards of the Temple when he went to rebuild it in
Jerusalem.During that time the priests forgot how to pronounce the
Sacred Name of God, acronym YHWH.

Christians originally had fifty Gospels, some of which still exist, but
only four made it into the New Testament, because of politics amongst
the priests.See Council of Nicaea.

In Islam, the Words of the Prophet were written down, and some of the
Words of the Twelve Imams, His actuall Successors, but 'Ali, the first
of these, had a ur'an with full interpretations Muhammad had given him,
and the caliphs refuesed it, saying they had what he had, so he said,
that only the members of His family would ever see it.

Much is lost, in each Religion, and so, after a time, another Revealer
is sent down, and that which was lost and whatever we are capable of now
receiving, is given us.

Buddhism is one of the Divinely revealed Re;ligions, and Buddha
originally taught of God, the immortality of the soul, and unshaken
faith in Him as the key to this,
and many are the proofs, see the Ashokan inscriptions, the Dragon Flower
Ch'an Temples' website, and the Tevijja Sutta, for some of it.

I too was a Buddhist for some time, having also been raised a Methodist.


'Everything you read was essentially written by a human being,
regardless of where they claim their inspiration came from."

That too, is an opinion.Not mine, as there is evidence that the great
Founders of the World's religions, were not merely human
beings.Physically of course they were, spiritually they were far beyond
that.

Many people today claim psychic powers and are full of beans.The
Prophets could read minds and hearts, the past, present and future, as
part of what and Who they were. Yes, in one sense human, but also, in
another , not, as they refelcted the Spitrit of the creator, yes, even
the Buddha who said in the tevijja sutta, one of the earliest ones, that
he knew the world of Brahma, even as one wwho was born there and lived
there, and that the sages wh wrote the panishads did not, therefore who
knew the way to reunion with Brahma, he or the sages?

This contradicts many other Buddhist Scriptures, none of which, anyway
were actually written by the Buddha.

'Everything is relative to the world you personally live in...'

Yes, Bishop Berkely's philosophy. He claimed that the material world was
not real, and Samel Johnson, when asked by a refutation, kicked hard
against a boulder until he flew backwards in reaction, saying, 'I refute
him Thus!"

Everything is Not relative to the world anyone personally lives in.
Differences of perspective may cause differences of belief, but gravity
exists nevertheless.If God exists, and I only say if for sake of
exposition, God is not relative, though man's understanding of God
certainly is.

Too, when the Founders of the Religions come to mankind, they speak in
terms acceptable and understandable to man at that time, and later, They
say more.But after Their passing, man changes sometimes the meanings of
the teachings, translates it badly, or loses them or some of them, and
has to make do with what they can.A teaching misunderstood for two
thousand years can only be cleared up by the Messenger of God Who is
sent at the present or recent time,who ACTUALLY CAN EXPLAIN IT BECAUSE
THE SPIRIT TTHAT IS REFLECTED IN HIM IS THE ONE THAT SAID IT THE FIRST
TIME. Different Day, same Sun, different Name, same One, in Spirit, not
in form.

The dojo kun is recycled Confucian( not a prophet but a philosopher)
rhetoric, not well understood, badly transalted, and not relative to
most of karate.I have considered it, but find there are better codes of
conduct and ethics.It cannot be compared to religion.

Anyway, what you have said is what many have said, I too took a similar
journey.

As to where it led me, email if you really want to know, as my purpose
on AMAKS is to discuss karate, shotokan and what related arts can
augment or enlighten the practice thereof, and not to teach my
Faith.There are other newsgroups where that is the topic, and one can go
there.In respect to the AMAKS FAQ, and in light of the fact that if one
does so, all can then do so, and we are not really a religious NG,
though our discussions can and do range far and wide, as long as the
starting point really is shotokan karaate, or we tie into it by the end.

A recurring theme on here, however, has been the taking of the dojo kun
as a way of life, when it was really meant in quite another way,just
rules of conduct perhaps in the dojo, or ideals to strive for, or don't
hurt people because bad stuff will happen, and so on.

With that there have been some who take karae as their religion, glad to
see you don't, and if Buddha didn't mean to teach worship, why do
Buddhists worshp,and what and to Whom are the Buddhist mantra( prayers)
and dharanis( same) addressed to, if not Beings r a Being endowed with
all power and knowledge?

Check out the Dragon Flower Ch'an Temple website, read the Dharanis, and
you tell me.

Why did they worship two hours in the morning and two hours in the
evening, with Prayer?

Check out the Ashokan inscriptions and see a Buddhism more closely
similar to Christianity, Hinduism, and other Faiths than the one
presented by intellectual philosophers of Buddhism as disticnt from
actual Buddhist monks and priests and followers) presented you in books
today.

Then you'll see what I am talking about to some extent.

History of religion, and of mankind, an interesting study.

And if you think Buddhism only is presented one way, after five
centuries
Buddhism had at least twelve major divisions.

Theravadins like to present themselves as the oldest school of
Buddhism.But they didn't even exist in the Buddha's time. Check out
Sarvastivadins for another view.

And the Kalama sutra is a later production or sure.'Don't even believe
what you read in Scriptures.' What is the point, then?

Unless the Scriptures were lost or corrupted, as the Buddhist one were
to a great or almost entire extent. They weren't the only one, either.

There exists a Faith however, which does have not only the Words of the
Founders intact and often in their own hands or under their own seal,but
the interpretations given by their authorized Successors, also intact.

God does not leave man alone.But man has learned to stay away from God.

the dutton family

unread,
May 23, 2001, 6:17:16 AM5/23/01
to
Thanks, Fin, I have taken onboard what you said, you certainly appear well
read.
I agree that this thread seems to be veering widely off topic, although very
interestingly. As far as all things theological, I'll continue to read.
As far as the Dojo Kun goes, if it has no relevance to todays Karate, why
does it remain? Are there Senseis out there who still believe in it and
consider it a good idea? Does it remain because Funakoshi Sensei wrote it
and is therefore part of the tradition (do they just do it for 'tradition')?
Do students learn it to at least make them consider what they are
undertaking? Is it even a good guideline purely for behaviour inside the
Dojo? Is there a better one (sensible) that could be adopted - I'm in favour
of 'if it's not broke then don't fix it' but also if you can make something
better then you should.

Shaun

<fin_fa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:25651-3B0...@storefull-137.iap.bryant.webtv.net...

Tazman

unread,
May 23, 2001, 10:42:58 AM5/23/01
to
> Ashoka who had studied and lived with the Buddhist monks for at least
> one year to learn speaks of God and Gods, prayer, fasting, good deeds
> and charity, kindness to animals, justice, religious tolerance, and so
> does the Buddha if you look,

You don't have to go back that far to hear a Buddhist talk about God!
The Dali Lama himself talks about one, and there are plenty of books
written recently by monks comparing the teaching of Christ to Buddha.
Buddhism is not exclusionary. It is possible to be both *insert your
favorite religion* and Buddhist at the same time.



> Buddhism is one of the Divinely revealed Re;ligions, and Buddha
> originally taught of God, the immortality of the soul, and unshaken
> faith in Him as the key to this,
> and many are the proofs, see the Ashokan inscriptions, the Dragon Flower
> Ch'an Temples' website, and the Tevijja Sutta, for some of it.

Ya so what? Whether a creator exists or not is not a key point in
Buddhism as it is in other religions. Why does it really matter how
we got here?

Don't cloud eastern thought with western ideals. That's what we do
with karate alllll the time.



> Many people today claim psychic powers and are full of beans.The
> Prophets could read minds and hearts, the past, present and future, as
> part of what and Who they were. Yes, in one sense human, but also, in
> another , not, as they refelcted the Spitrit of the creator, yes, even
> the Buddha who said in the tevijja sutta, one of the earliest ones, that
> he knew the world of Brahma, even as one wwho was born there and lived
> there, and that the sages wh wrote the panishads did not, therefore who
> knew the way to reunion with Brahma, he or the sages?

Once you understand yourself and life it is easier to understand
others.

> This contradicts many other Buddhist Scriptures, none of which, anyway
> were actually written by the Buddha.
>

The whole shooting match is a contradiction. Get past the words and
the message is there.

> With that there have been some who take karae as their religion, glad to
> see you don't, and if Buddha didn't mean to teach worship, why do
> Buddhists worshp,and what and to Whom are the Buddhist mantra( prayers)
> and dharanis( same) addressed to, if not Beings r a Being endowed with
> all power and knowledge?

Double troll! Buddhists pray for the end of human suffering.

> Check out the Ashokan inscriptions and see a Buddhism more closely
> similar to Christianity, Hinduism, and other Faiths than the one
> presented by intellectual philosophers of Buddhism as disticnt from
> actual Buddhist monks and priests and followers) presented you in books
> today.

There is a fundamental difference between Buddhism and Western
Religions, and many similarities. I believe that Buddhism is purer in
a sense then other religions. There are religions where it is a sin
to have a TV, and that must have been a recent change.

However, what is wrong with the modifications of a religion? Isn't
one that makes sense to me and my life the best one? I personally
like Buddhism because there is no penalty for disbelief and I get to
be a God!


>
>
> And the Kalama sutra is a later production or sure.'Don't even believe
> what you read in Scriptures.' What is the point, then?

Believe what you see, right now, instead.


>
> There exists a Faith however, which does have not only the Words of the
> Founders intact and often in their own hands or under their own seal,but
> the interpretations given by their authorized Successors, also intact.

I am glad you found a signpost on the road. I have mine and you have
yours. I don't see the point of your argument however. What is so
important about intact or not intact? Why must someone need to read
it first hand in a book?

I do know that you like to find the origin of things. That's great
and I've learned a lot from your posts, but I have no interest to look
myself. I guess I find that I don't have to know everything about
Karate to win, and I don't view the reason for my losses on history.
It comes down to how I apply my techniques, and the fact that
sometimes you win and sometimes you don't.

Tazman

unread,
May 23, 2001, 11:10:08 AM5/23/01
to
> Thanks, Fin, I have taken onboard what you said, you certainly appear well
> read.
> I agree that this thread seems to be veering widely off topic, although very
> interestingly.

John is one of the old guard here so if he thinks it is in line then
it is.

> As far as the Dojo Kun goes, if it has no relevance to todays Karate, why
> does it remain?

The question is...is it relevant and useful to you?

> Are there Senseis out there who still believe in it and
> consider it a good idea?

Yes, for many different reasons. The worst case would be to sell
hoopla.

> Do students learn it to at least make them consider what they are
> undertaking? Is it even a good guideline purely for behaviour inside the
> Dojo? Is there a better one (sensible) that could be adopted - I'm in favour
> of 'if it's not broke then don't fix it' but also if you can make something
> better then you should.

I think it is valuable to young new beginners. If you're in that
obsessive stage it reins you in, but loses it's strength after awhile.
>
PS: Would you mind not reposting the complete message that you are
responding to. I makes your message very difficult to read and my
first thought is to skip it.

fin_fa...@webtv.net

unread,
May 23, 2001, 6:09:21 PM5/23/01
to
'Thanks Fin, I have taken onboard what you said, you certainly appear
well read.'

There is no excuse for a person who has Internet capability,and time to
use it, not to be.Not to mention a Public Library nearby, and a complete
set of the Encyclopedia Brittannca, and the Scriptures of all the Faiths
of mankind, and many another Volume.

We should all be continually learning, while using our critical
faculties and acquired knowedge and expeience, to avoid and distinguish
as best we can, between truth and falsehood.

Too often, popular presentations of a subject, be it karate, Buddhism,
Christianity, or other subjects, either over simplify or present only
one viewpoint of it, one often formed long centureies or even millennia
after the actual beginnings and efflorescence of the subject under
discussion.Those original views are either forgotten, conveniently left
out, or buried as though they had never been.

Then we get a view of the subject that is entirely or mostly inaccurate,
a view we will die to defend.A false picture.

One need only look at the so-called Physics experts on the other thread
here who are trying to convince people who know beter, that the front
leg cannot pull the body and rear leg forward, when muscles contract and
pull, they do not push.

The one is fantasy and trolling, the other indisputable fact.

If something so obvious can be distorted and even presented as an
impossibillity, then what of subjects so far in the past that the
Author's original Words have been lost entirely?

It would be like studying General Relativity by reading a bad paraphrase
of another bad Paraphrase of Einstein, both written by people who were
not physicists and had no actual understanding of the theory.

My approach here, apparently thought unusual these days, would be to
read Einstein first, Then explanatoons of what he meant by what he said,
by other experts.

We got people on here now starting to lecture us on the subject of ki or
ch'i, as though they are masters of it.

I went to the lineage Taiji masters to learn Taiji, and have practiced
it for eight years.Including Chi gung, which does have beneficial
effects, but not what those charlatans who attempt to make names and
money for themselves, claim it can do, at all.Deep breathing and
relaxation excercises are in fact, quite beneficial to ones health, and
relaxation of antagonistic muscles when doing techniques does in fact
improve the quality of all your arate movement.

We have another person on here who claimed that we are hardwired to
never use antagonistic muscle movement, that we cannot ever do this. We
would all be master of movement if this were true, and would need little
training.

In the same way, when someone who may well know karate and be able to
perform it in expert condition, says as every now and again someone
does, that 'God does not exist',in spite of the proof and overwhelming
evidence, starting with the existence of the Universe, that God does
exist, in spite of the existence of intelligen humanity, another
proof,and in spite of the overwhelming historical evidence, in the
Persons of the Founders of the World's great Religions,and Their
teachings,then I must protest and give the other side of the story.

To do this it is helpful to be fairly well versed in a number of
subjects, and this is that to which I aspire.

If a day goes by without leaarning something new, then at least I must
review something old.:-)

fin_fa...@webtv.net

unread,
May 23, 2001, 6:20:06 PM5/23/01
to
'As far as the dojo kun, if it has no relevance to karte, why does it
remain?'

Well it doesn't, where I live.But-
For the same reason we still use gi, white Japanese kimono suits
patterned after judogi and only used starting in the nineteen twenties
or thirties after being introduced to Japan from Okinawa.

For the same reason we use Japanese teminology for the movements.

For the same reason we bow to each other at beginning and end of kumit,
and a beginning and end of kata.

Because they who taughgt us, taught s that way.

The kun is very nice, t just doesn't seem to be very effective.

In other styles of karate, including Okinawan styles, different
variations are used, different kun are used, and sometimes no kun are
used a all.

It simply, isn't part of the original art of karate.

In chinese systems, sometimes the things chanted during class, if things
are, have to do with technique.

Check the Bubishi's Eight Statements on Kempo for the earliest known
Okinawan Kun.Matsumura and Itosu also wrote statements , numbered ones,
on matial arts. They were not the same as Funakoshi's.The karate you do
today is not Funakoshi's.Why should you do his Kun?

Is it a good guideline for beavour inside the dojo?'

No, I've heard better from TaeKwon Do.

Sir!'I will obey the instructors in class.
Sir! I will respect the seniors and other members!
Sir! I will help the juniors and my fellow students!
Sir! I will not misuse my art in any way!
Sir!I will stay out of fights and only defend myself or others in the
cause of justice!
Sir! I will do all I can to represent my art with honor, and to live up
to this code!

I think that one may have been written in English.

Ones that have to be translated should be translated by someone who
knows the person who wrote it, who speaks English as their first
language, and who does the art as well.

That's what seems sensible here.

Anyone should be able to write a better dojo creed if that is what you
want.

the dutton family

unread,
May 24, 2001, 7:50:53 AM5/24/01
to

Tazman <Tazma...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5cd95e71.01052...@posting.google.com...

> PS: Would you mind not reposting the complete message that you are
> responding to. I makes your message very difficult to read and my
> first thought is to skip it.

I apologise, hence new style.

Shaun


the dutton family

unread,
May 24, 2001, 8:02:23 AM5/24/01
to

<fin_fa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:1975-3B0...@storefull-137.iap.bryant.webtv.net...

>
> There is no excuse for a person who has Internet capability,and time to
> use it, not to be.Not to mention a Public Library nearby, and a complete
> set of the Encyclopedia Brittannca, and the Scriptures of all the Faiths
> of mankind, and many another Volume.
>
Key word = Time. I do my best (as I'm sure we all do)

> We should all be continually learning, while using our critical
> faculties and acquired knowedge and expeience, to avoid and distinguish
> as best we can, between truth and falsehood.

Once again, I do my best.

>
> If a day goes by without leaarning something new, then at least I must
> review something old.:-)
>

I was going to say "what, like my grandmother?", but I agree that this is a
wise and laudable aspiration.

I guess most people who have thought about the Dojo Kun and given it some
kind of consideration (and even research) come to their own conclusions
about it's meaning and relevance. At least there are some intelligent,
independant and informed people out there. Myself, I kinda like it, it forms
part of what I do but I have to admit that it hasn't changed the way I
behave or think, and it hasn't given me anything in respect to the way I
practice karate. It's just been something else to think about - another
issue to consider.

Shaun


Gabriel Brega

unread,
May 24, 2001, 12:32:52 PM5/24/01
to

<fin_fa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:28487-3B...@storefull-134.iap.bryant.webtv.net...

> Plus too, and I feel I must say this,the proof of the existence of a
> Creator, is the creation.
>
> To say that we are all we got, as has been said, without offering the
> slightest proof of that, or any experiment which could deemonstrate a
> probability of this being so, is a cop out, and logically indefensible.
>
> But as to proofs of exisence, if I see a painting , I know a painter
> exists.
>
> If I see a bridge or a city, a builder exists, even though I may not see
> him or any other trace of him.

If you see man's work it is reasonable to assume that there's a man/men
(gender neutral) behind it.

If you see a man, you know by experience that that there is or was a
mother somewhere. For a plant, you know that there was a seed.

If you see a boulder of granite, or a grain of sand, or a crystal, you know
that
certain physical processes took place which do not require the intervention
of a living maker. A rock detaches itself from the mountain it was part
of because of wind, rain and gravity.

A bump on your head may mean that Lucius hit you with a two by four
or that a coconut fell on your head.

Assuming a first cause or a first maker is an anthropomorphic way to
explain the universe - the last frontier of paganism : we know that trees
and creeks are not home to fair Driad and Amadriads, we know that
the earthquake is not caused by Poseidon's trident, but we can't fathom
eternity, or worse still nothingness or the beginning of time. So, we
go back to what our common sense tells us happens : someone made
the universe, and since we like the reassurance of a moral order, outside
of which there is only uncertainty, pain and fear, we make that Maker
a Lawmaker as well. So we are reassured, our terrors are
temporarily placated, and we have a third party to quote in support of
our moral contructions.

>
> When I see the Universe in all its order and wonder, and the ecological
> system of earth in all its functionality, am I to be so arrogant that I
> should believe it all just happened?

The Universe is not a balanced machine. Movement is caused by
imbalance. Individuals, races, species, continents, stars, galaxies,
come into existence, change, die, dissolve, mutate, explode,
implode etc.

What appears as equilibrium - in nature, history, astrophysics - is
a snapshot of a moving reality : creation, existence, destruction.

Order and wonder are one face - birth and death the other two.
Go ask the dinosaurs how harmonious it felt to become extinct.

>
> That is indefensible.
>
> Here's another. You can say all you want to about followers of Relgions
> corrupting them, but when you look at the lives of the Founders and
> Their teachings, after the time when they made known where they came
> from and Whom They represented
> then you get a different reality there.
>
> If the Bridge Inspector shows up to see, every now and again, ow people
> have been taking care of His Bridge,and the people crap on the Bridge,
> how is that the fault of the Builder, or of the inspector, Whom the
> people kill, torture, poison or exile?

A bridge is a part of reality. Your vision is that the whole of reality is
created by the same Architect - how can man's work escape from
His control ? Is Satan as powerful as God ?

Besides, even eliminating man's self inflicted pain, there is enough of
it left in the nature of things to exclude a fatherly figure preoccupied
with His creatures' welfare and happiness. How many children die
every day ?

>
> It isn't. Also a logical fallacy.
>
> If you want to say that Religion has permitted people to do wrong, that
> is nonsense.Religion does not, nor does God, remove free will, He gives
> it to us.

That's not my point. If an ethical system has at its center the respect
of life and sympathy for all human beings and all things living, it has a
chance to deliver order and solidarity.

If it has at its center other considerations - for example following
God's will as revealed by "my religion which is better than yours"
etc, screw ups may very possibly ensue.

See for instance the Crusades.

Or better still, see Genesis 22.2 - the authentic declaration of intents.

quote
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and
get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering
upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
unquote

What father is one that accepts to sacrifice his son ? What God is
one that asks a father to kill his son ?

Gabriel

the_peanut_gallery

unread,
May 24, 2001, 12:06:22 PM5/24/01
to
Le 23-mai-01, fin_fa...@webtv.net a écrit :

> Too often, popular presentations of a subject, be it karate, Buddhism,
> Christianity, or other subjects, either over simplify or present only
> one viewpoint of it, one often formed long centureies or even
> millennia after the actual beginnings and efflorescence of the subject
> under discussion.Those original views are either forgotten,
> conveniently left out, or buried as though they had never been.

> Then we get a view of the subject that is entirely or mostly
> inaccurate, a view we will die to defend.A false picture.

Half-understood simplified explanations, dubbed by some as
"lies-to-children"(1) passed on as incontrovertible fact. This is
especially prevalent in karate.

> One need only look at the so-called Physics experts on the other
> thread here who are trying to convince people who know beter, that the
> front leg cannot pull the body and rear leg forward, when muscles
> contract and pull, they do not push.

Indeed. Is it not written "Pull the other one, it's got bells on?"

> Deep breathing and
> relaxation excercises are in fact, quite beneficial to ones health,
> and relaxation of antagonistic muscles when doing techniques does in
> fact improve the quality of all your arate movement.

It does, indeed, and not just karate.

> If a day goes by without leaarning something new, then at least I must
> review something old.:-)

A good rule, that one.
--
Rose Humphrey
(1) See Chapter IV of "The Science of Discworld" by Pratchett, Stewart &
Cohen for an excellent explanation of this important teaching concept.

Peter Bromaghin

unread,
May 24, 2001, 10:20:30 AM5/24/01
to
It took the whole dutton family to write:
>
> I have to apologise to my American friends - I have just sent a post
> contesting this and siting that American schoolchildren have to recite the
> Declaration of Independance at school.

You have nothing to apologise for. A mistake is a mistake.

> I have had a look around and now
> believe it to be the Oath of Allegiance that I mean.

For one thing, the Declaration of Independence is beyond the ability
of most schoolchildren to grasp, with its subtle references to the
Cromwell-like usurpations of an 18th century monarch. For another,
even though many of the ideas it contains were widely held among the
intelligencia of the time, it was and remains an entirely too
revolutionary, and therefore dangerous statement to allow our
government-run schools to press it into young minds through such
recitation. Our schools are already chaotic enough as it is. Much
better the mindless repetition of oaths of blind loyalty to create a
populace with a proper deference to authority.

Peter Bromaghin

unread,
May 24, 2001, 10:25:53 AM5/24/01
to
George Winter wrote

Oops, this wasn't George...
> >No problem. But some of us didn't recite it after we started thinking about
> >it (which for me was toward the end of high school). It turns out that it
> >has been changed from the author's original, and some meaning has been
> >changed.

And the word "indivisible" was added either in the last year of, or
shortly after the end of the War Between the States.

Peter Bromaghin

unread,
May 24, 2001, 11:53:31 AM5/24/01
to
Tazman wrote:
>
> John is one of the old guard here so if he thinks it is in line then
> it is.

Old Guard! Hell, he kept it going for 6 months when it was belly up
on the beach, gasping for breath! He fixed the roof, patched the
awning, replaced the sign, painted the bathrooms, washed the windows,
shined the brass, oiled the leather wingback chairs, tended bar,
dusted the bottles, polished the crystal chandelier, shampooed the
oriental rugs, kept the walk-in humidor filled, and emptied the
ashtrays.

And now AMAKS is back to being almost, if not THE most active group in
alt.martial-arts heierarchy.

George Winter

unread,
May 24, 2001, 1:25:17 PM5/24/01
to
On 24 May 2001 07:25:53 -0700, pete...@my-deja.com (Peter Bromaghin)
wrote:

>And the word "indivisible" was added either in the last year of, or
>shortly after the end of the War Between the States.

Actually the whole pledge was written after the civil war (1861-65) in
1892, but I'm sure it was the reason for including the word.
--

George
_____________________________________________________________________
George Winter gwi...@q-sys.com
Qsys Ltd.
Information Systems Consulting

the dutton family

unread,
May 24, 2001, 4:09:11 PM5/24/01
to

Peter Bromaghin <pete...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:6ff8fba5.01052...@posting.google.com...

> It took the whole dutton family to write:

Look, for anyone else thinking of commenting on my email address, I like it,
it's convenient, and it serves all six of us. I could configure a new
identity, but i have better things to do with my time.

> You have nothing to apologise for. A mistake is a mistake.

I appreciate that, though.

> Much
> better the mindless repetition of oaths of blind loyalty to create a
> populace with a proper deference to authority.

Dojo Kun, anyone ?

Shaun


fin_fa...@webtv.net

unread,
May 24, 2001, 7:57:23 PM5/24/01
to
Scott says: 'I personally like Buddhism because there is no penalty for
disbelief and I get to be a God.'

Buddha says : 'Take it, O Brahmin, that I am the Buddha.'

He also says that you must have unshaken faith in Him to enter the
stream( Nirvana, yes, Heaven)

As for getting to be a God:'For as many came to him to believe, to them
He gave power to be sons of God.'-Gospel

'Ye have heard it said of old, 'ye are gods.'
'Jesus in Gospel also.

There's gods, and then there is God.

You be whatever you like, but the things you find unique, may be merely
understandings developed over time, and not all of them may be correct.

Buddhism has nine Hells, and Nine Heavens , and Nine worlds in between.

So there must indeed, as the Sutras say, be both rewards and penalties
for belief and for disbelief.

As for being a God,or a Buddha, good luck, no one since the Buddha in
Buddhism, has made it yet.Not in this world and not so anyone noticed,
though claims were made.

Since the Buddha, the only beings Who showed the thirty two or other
signs of a Buddha have been the Founders of Christianty, Islam, and the
Baha'i Faith.

Which squares with what the Buddha said about past and future Buddhas.

Buddha said His Faith would only remain pure for five hundred years, and
five hundred years after the Buddha, we have about one A.D.Isn't that a
coincidence?

So the next Buddha( fully awakend one) after Buddha, is Jesus Christ.

'Take it, O Brahmin, that I am the Buddha.'

'Who do men say that I am?'Christ asked His Disciples.

Some gave various answers, then Peter says,'Thou art the Christ, the Son
of the Living God.'

Buddha=Enlightened One
Christ=Anointed One.

Five hundred years later.

Gee, what a coincidence.

I'd go on, but this after all, isn't the place, unless that's what
people want.

fin_fa...@webtv.net

unread,
May 24, 2001, 7:45:44 PM5/24/01
to
Scott says:' 'You don'
t have to go back that far to hear a Buddhist talk about God!The Dalai
Lama himself talks about one!'

By Golly, you're right! In both of his books on my shelf and also,
plenty of prayers he uses.In fact, in one book, he says that some
Western Buddhologists have popagated an atheist view of Buddhism, but
this is not the truth.

'Buddhism is not exclusuinary.'

No, it isn't, and its good to hear that from a Buddhist.Some of them
nowadays try to make a case for just that.I told 'em they wrre going
against the stream , but there they went anyway.

'It's possible to be both 'insewrt your favorite religion'

Oh, I like 'em all.:-)

'And a Buddhist at the same time.'

I'd put it that it is possible to believe in all the Religions and not
contradict yourself or any of them.But I getcha.

'Whether a creator exiss is not a key point in Buddhism as it is in
other Religions.'

The point of the Ashokan inscriptions, s that it once was.and was for at
least a couple or three centuries after the Buddha, I'd guess about
five.

'Don't cloud Eastern hought with Western ideals.'

My ideals, coming as the do from the Baha'i Faith, are from the Middle
East geographically, not the West or the East, and spiritually,' neither
of the East nor of the West."And they don't cloud anything, they clarify
it.

I mention this, because I don't want to be misconstrued either.

In this view, all Religions are viewed as coming from One Source which
many call God, or Allah, or Tat Tvam Asi, or whatever you may call the
Supreme Being and Origin of all things.

The Founders of this Religion, for it is One Faith, but given over many
Ages in different ways acceptable to humanity and comprehensible to them
at that time and lace,constitute and intermediate class of Being between
God and man, called variously, Prophets, Buddhas, Manifestations of God,
Avatars,Christ, Apostles of God, etc.

They are like perfect Mirrors reflecting the Reality of the One Truth to
the secondary mirrors of human minds, sous, hearts, and then we reflect
those virtues and attributes which we have been created to reflect, in
out r turn, less than perfevctly but ever more so if we make efforts to
do so.

The Buddha as all other Founders of Religion, told of the ones past, and
the ones to come in the future.His Names for them were given in whatever
language He spoke( no one really knows what that was, either) as were
the terms He used, and so they didn't seem to be the same Ones the
Others spoke of but in translation, They were in fact, the same.

The removal of the God concept from center stage in Buddhism by many ,
further confuses the issue.

"Once you understand yourself and life, it's easy to understand others.'

Yes, it is.However , to understand the world of Brahma and the way to
reunion with Brahma, as the Buddha did and said He did, requires
something more.It requires that He have dwelt in the world of the
Creator(Brahma)and be in a condition of reunion with Brahma.Adn so, He
said, He was.

Understanding requires two factors, in the way of thought I come from..
One is encompassment.That which understands must encompass that which is
understood.We do not encompass the world of Brahma, the Buddha does.

We need to find reunion with Brahma,the Buddha has it.Christ has it,
Muhammad has it, etc.

The other factor is this, likeness. To understand something, it must be
likenbed to something else we do understand.So the world of Brahma is
likened by the Buddha to a village, with parths in and out, gardens,
etc.

Then he asks, do people know the way into a villagewho have never been
to that village, or do those know the vcillage who were born there, and
live there, and know it inside out?

The Brahmins, who are asking Him the questions in the Tevijja
Sutta,answer that the one who was born there and lives there would be
the one who knows the way to the village.

The Buddha then says that He knows the way to reunion with Brahma as one
who was born there and lives there.

The Buddha says in another sutta, that he who has unshaken faith in Him(
the Buddha, will have life after death and enter the stream) Nirvana.

The Buddha also is reported as saying, 'only in My Faith will you find
the Twelve Great Apostles, his Disciples who spread Buddhism after
Him.This referred to the difference between the Buddha's faith and those
which started at the same time but were not actually Divine, more like
reflections of His.The real ones all do have Twelve who spread the
Mesage.

Moses had the Twelve tribes,Jesus the Twelve Apostles, Muhammad the
Twelve Imams, and so on.

The similarites are real and exist,also those other Faiths cannnot be
called Western either.

'The whole shooting match( Buddhist Scriptures) is a contradiction.Get
past the words and the message is there.'

Yes, the Zen approach, a much later interpretation actually.

The Message of the Buddha is interpreted differently by different sects
and branches.

Without words, it would be hard to have a Mesage.However, what is clear
ifs the teachings on ethics and morals, these are the same in every
Faith, or every chapter of the one Faith .

Theology gets corrupted, or removed, or distorted, or multiplied, by
people, and any study of religion will show this process hard at work,
or even at attempted work in the case where it cannot be successful.

But in most, in the past, it has been, or seemingly has been.But the
ethics are left alone, because they are so very clear.


'Double troll! Buddhist prya for the end of human suffering.'

Indeed. But to Whom, or to what power greater than they, do they pray?

Prayer implies an Answerer, or it is useless.Why pray if there is no
answer, and if there is no Answerer of Prayer, be it God, a god or gods,
or a Buddha, or Buddhas,then why pray?

If there is an answer from the Buddhas, then there is life after death,
not an extinguishing of consciousness.

If the Buddha has power to answer prayer from His heaven as stated in
the Sutras, then from where does that Heaven come, and from where the
power?From where the immortality?

Many believe they have the power to become as Buddha, or a Buddha.But
they haven't done so.That is because they can't.But they pray to the
Buddhas.

Because the Buddhas have power to answer prayer, and the Power comes
from a greater Power.And the Buddhas can give s some of that power,
reflected in our innermost selves.Thenn we can become fully human, and
achieve bodhi( awakening, enightenment)but not Buddhahood.

When people take out one of the three conditions of life, Deity,
Prophethood, or servitude( humanity), they confuse things.

In Buddhist terms, the world of Brahma, the world of the Buddhas, and
the world of mankind.

But many modern Buddhsts omit one or both, and leave only mankind, who
can attain by their own unaided efforts to Buddhahood,but then, why
pray?

Incidentally, in the Surangama Sutra, for instance, a prayer is given,
the Great Crown Dharani, without which, the sutra says, one cannnot
attain to enlightenment.

Course, we don't know if that's true or not, as the author of any
Buddhist sutr is unknown.

But some Buddhist priests believe and teach this.

What's in the Great Crwon Dharani?Prayers to every Buddha, every god or
goddess, every aspect or attribute or Name of God you ever heard.

Isn't that interesting? I thought it was.In most englidsh translatios of
the Surangama sutr, the Prayer is omitted.Seems some Buddhists are
embarrased it's even there.

But at the Dragon Flower Ch'an Temple website, the wole thing is
available n English translation.

Seems if you use that prayer, you Can make it.According to the sutra.

Different sutras make of course, no reference at all to that or any
other prayer, but many prayers do exist in Buddhism.

'I believe that Buddhism is purer in a sense than other religions.'

You would, or you wouldn't be one.I believe all of them have been
somewhat corrupted and distorted, and by the way, none of them are
fromthe West except Native American ones.:-)

But it is natural for Westerners to seek the Wisdomn of the East and
assume there is more truth to be found in the Buddha's teaching than in
the Bible.

I did that too. Know what I realized after a while? The East is all
messed up too just like we are.:-)

When I read the Buddha's stuff and what He supposedly dsaid, I noticed
He sounded a lot like Jesus. That as you said, is the topic of several
books.That wasn't what I wanted to find out, either.

Then I read Hindu Scriptres, and when Krishna is talking, He sounds like
Buddha and Jesus.

Into the Qur'an and what do you find? Sounds like Moses and Jesus and
Buddha and Krishna, especially on how to be towards each other.

Says I at this point, 'Hey! What gives here?They all sound the same.

Why are their followers at odds with one another?

Where is the Religion that says they are all from the same Source?

Enter the Baha'i Faith.

'All the Prophets of God proclaim the same Faith.'

I saw this, and the other Writings, andthe Prayers, and the teachings,
and I said, 'that's it.'

So God is one,all religions are one,and mankind is one.

That is a teaching neither of the East nor of the West.

And the world needs it bad.

fin_fa...@webtv.net

unread,
May 24, 2001, 8:12:45 PM5/24/01
to
Scott says" Believe what you see, right now, instead.'

The senses can deceive. In kata techniques we use that to deceive the
sense of others. In Okinawan, the word bunkai is unknown. Instead, they
say ti chi ki, the eyes must see what the hands do.

Senses can deceive, pure reason can fail, as one can argue any point and
support it with reason,traditions can fail if they are not understood or
are distorted.

Feelings and intuition can also be false.

'I am glad you found a signpost on the road>'

Thanks, I'm pretty happy about it myself.:-)

'What so important about intact or not intact?

Well, why is it so important to know what the moves in kata were
originally and what they were for?So we know what truth is.Or even what
it can be, which is more than we know if they are not intact.

S what is important about havingthe Words,of the latest Buddha,
intermediary, and appointed Interpreters, intact?Because it is the
latest guidance, including a renewed and refreshed outpiouring of the
Spirit as well as the Letter of the eternal teachings, restted for
modern man,and because new teachings to enable us to solve all the
problems, over the next few centuries facing us that didn't face us two
thousand five hundred years ago, have been given as well.

And we need them intact and un messed with. And we have them, and they
are available to all mankind, no secrets at all withheld.They even are
on the Internet.You can go and view them at no cost whatever. They can
be found at www.bahai.org

'Why must someone read it first hand in a book?'

Don't have to if you don't want to. But if you want it, it's there, and
it will be there.
God doesn't force anyone to do anything.

As to why, or what benefit is there to reading it in a book?Wll, you
never would have heard of Buddha or Buddhism of not for books. It
wouldn't, probably , even exist.Certainy it would never have made it to
the West.

And without books on karate, we would all be dependent on Japanese and
Okinawan masters forever, to teach us.

So, books are important, words are imortant, writng is important,
thought is important, without any of these, we wouldn't be so very far
along in our evolution." Hey,OG! How do you make Fire again?''mmm I
forgot!But I'll remember sometime, I think."

Note that the Okinawan masters all had a Bubishi.Why?

Today when we have so much, eople poo poo that book, but even one hudred
years ago, having it meant the difference between life and death to some
people.
For one thing, it contained medical remedies for accidents, injuries and
wounds.I wouldn't use some of those remedies today, we have better.

But then, we have newer books too.


fin_fa...@webtv.net

unread,
May 24, 2001, 8:24:13 PM5/24/01
to
'I know you like to find the origin of things.'Scott says.

'As it is in the beginning, so it shall be in the end.'

Another way of saying it is, 'see the end in the beginning.'

So, yes indeed, I like to find the origin of things.

'That's great and I've learned a lot from you're posts, but I have no
interest to look for myself.'

Thank you, and what an interesting statement that is. Did you notice
what you said?'I have no interest to look for myself.'

If you truly don't, why say that, it sounds like an affirmation. Repeat
twenty times: 'I have no interest to look for myself.'

Behind that is: 'I am afraid that if I look for myself, I may find
something I wasn't looking for that might change my life.'

You sure might.

'I have no interest to look for myself.'
Yet you say: 'Believe what you see.'

But you don't want to look for yourself, are you afraid of what you
might see?

Hey, that's understandable, most people are.

You see what opposition comes up whenever on here someone says something
about karate that people don't want to see.

Yet, when they try it, themselves, doesn't it work every time?

It is a human trait not to want to learn things that contradict what we
believe.

Its a risk we take anytime we go and look for ourselves.

But certainly, no one can make us if we don't want to.

Ony, as one whom this actually happened to, what happens when what we
don't want to know about, comes looking for us?

Only two choices then- acceptance or denial.

If we accept, everything changes, forever.

If we deny, having seen and felt and exerienced and checked by all the
criteria f knowledge-senses, reason, traditio, and experience, so we
have a really good idea that it's true-then our denial is ccompanied by
guilty knowledge, and isn't very convincing, even to us.

True about any subject we can imagine and some we can't.

Vengel's school of Philosophy,open twenty-four seven.:-)

Love it or leave it but it won't go away.:-)

fin_fa...@webtv.net

unread,
May 24, 2001, 8:52:16 PM5/24/01
to
Peter says:'Old Gaurd! Hell, he kept it going for six months...'

Couldn't bear to see the old place going down the tubes like that.but it
looks pretty sharp today, for sure.

I do have to thank all my friends for jumping in also when the work
started.

And all the other and some older ones for coming around occasionally to
see how things are going.

AMAKS is an interesting place, there isn't any other place quite like
it, and its true that one never knows what is going to happen next on
here, or where a conversation will lead.

But that is how a Genteman's and Ladies Klub is supposed to operate,
innit?

And I have got to say, we even have high class trolls here.With Ph.D' no
less.Who else gets exclusive use of Ph. D. Trolls?

So, what's better'n' that?

Oops. Gotta check the Wingbacks, someone spilt a drink on one. Been
meaning to get 'em all Scotchguarded, but the Scots occasionally come
here too, and welcome they are, at that.:-)

The Scotts, as well.

fin_fa...@webtv.net

unread,
May 24, 2001, 8:55:12 PM5/24/01
to
Rose brings up Terry Pratchett's Discworld.

Uh-Oh.:-)

Who's got the Pratchett sig:'Its a Philosophical Engine. Beating it
won't do it any good.'

Was that you?

fin_fa...@webtv.net

unread,
May 25, 2001, 12:09:05 AM5/25/01
to
Re: Pledge of Allegiance:'indivisible' is good. Indivisible works.We
don't need another Civil War.

Now if we could just make that world wide, we'd have something.

Indivisible.

What'll it take to get it that way?

Jesse Greenawalt

unread,
May 25, 2001, 6:20:05 AM5/25/01
to
Probably something worse than the way it is now - a common enemy. "Mars
Attacks", anyone? ;-)

jester
--
www.kicksandstix.com
Gemberling's Martial Arts
Tae Kwon Do & Arnis


<fin_fa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:7886-3B0...@storefull-138.iap.bryant.webtv.net...

Peter Bromaghin

unread,
May 25, 2001, 10:21:17 AM5/25/01
to
George Winter wrote

> Actually the whole pledge was written after the civil war (1861-65) in
> 1892, but I'm sure it was the reason for including the word.

You're right. I thought it had been around a lot longer than that.
Damn. What made me think that? This is going to bug me all day.....

the_peanut_gallery

unread,
May 25, 2001, 5:42:04 PM5/25/01
to
Le 25-mai-01, fin_fa...@webtv.net a écrit :

> Rose brings up Terry Pratchett's Discworld.

> Uh-Oh.:-)

Yes, when Discworld has to be invoked, then /someone/ in this group has
major problems with reality. Anyone read "Thief Of Time"? It includes a
hilarious MA subthread and pokes serious fun at Sensei-parroting.

> Who's got the Pratchett sig:'Its a Philosophical Engine. Beating it
> won't do it any good.'

> Was that you?

Good Lord, no. I don't think I've ever used a Pratchett .sig, nor a
Douglas Adams one (though I know where my towel is and I'll be carrying
it today http://www.towelday.com)

This is my Only True AMAKS .sig

--
Rose Humphrey
History may be bunk, but karate is bunkai

Tazman

unread,
May 25, 2001, 4:41:25 PM5/25/01
to
I wrote:
> 'Whether a creator exiss is not a key point in Buddhism as it is in
> other Religions.'

FFF wrote:
> The point of the Ashokan inscriptions, s that it once was.and was for at
> least a couple or three centuries after the Buddha, I'd guess about
> five.

I was thinking more along the lines that one's karma is more important
then the existence of a God. We are responsible for our destiny.

To clarify another point you made in another post about there being a
penalty in Buddhism. Sure there is, but not one like in Western
Religions. In Western religions, thinking protestant, once you reach
an age of understanding and you still do not believe in God you go to
hell for all damnation. Nothing like that exists in Buddhism, where
at worst you continue to suffer as you are currently. Buddhism is not
based on fear, I guess was my point.

> They are like perfect Mirrors reflecting the Reality of the One Truth to
> the secondary mirrors of human minds, sous, hearts, and then we reflect
> those virtues and attributes which we have been created to reflect, in
> out r turn, less than perfevctly but ever more so if we make efforts to
> do so.

I can also be a mirror and shine light into the darkest soul. I can
be a bug and do so, and completely agree with you. It is my
philosophy that my happiness is determined by the degree to which I
understand, and my relationship with myself and others.


>
> The removal of the God concept from center stage in Buddhism by many ,
> further confuses the issue.

I always thought that the inclusion of a God in Buddhism clouded the
issue.

> "Once you understand yourself and life, it's easy to understand others.'
>
> Yes, it is.However , to understand the world of Brahma and the way to
> reunion with Brahma, as the Buddha did and said He did, requires
> something more.It requires that He have dwelt in the world of the
> Creator(Brahma)and be in a condition of reunion with Brahma.Adn so, He
> said, He was.

I dwell in the world of my creator...so it is possible to reach
enlightenment. Not sure where your going with this one.


>
> Understanding requires two factors, in the way of thought I come from..
> One is encompassment.That which understands must encompass that which is

> understood.We do not encompass the world of Brahma, the Buddha does....

> The other factor is this, likeness. To understand something, it must be
> likenbed to something else we do understand.So the world of Brahma is
> likened by the Buddha to a village, with parths in and out, gardens,
> etc.

Understanding for me means two different things. One is understanding
the nature of (my) life, and that others are in the same boat.

As for the village example, the Buddha does not hold himself up to be
worshipped. Instead, he is just a guide. Since he has been there he
can show you the path, actually the 8 fold one.


>
> The Buddha says in another sutta, that he who has unshaken faith in Him(
> the Buddha, will have life after death and enter the stream) Nirvana.

Which one is that? It's the unshakable part I wonder about.


>
> 'The whole shooting match( Buddhist Scriptures) is a contradiction.Get
> past the words and the message is there.'
>
> Yes, the Zen approach, a much later interpretation actually.
>

Sure the sect is later but meditation is one of the paths.

>
> 'Double troll! Buddhist prya for the end of human suffering.'
> Indeed. But to Whom, or to what power greater than they, do they pray?

If I believe that I am everything and everything is me, then who would
I pray to?
>
> Prayer implies an Answerer, or it is useless. Why pray if there is no


> answer, and if there is no Answerer of Prayer, be it God, a god or gods,
> or a Buddha, or Buddhas,then why pray?

Take the prayer wheel for example. I pray 1000 times and store those
prayers in a wheel. I put that wheel out on your path. You notice
the wheel and spin it. In doing so you release my 1000 prayers to end
your suffering. Great comfort. That is existing 100% for someone
elses gain. No God and not expecting an answer. I already know the
answer, I'm just trying to implement it into my day to day life.

99% of the time that I have prayed to God I have at least sneaked one
in there for myself. Actually 99% of the time I pray to a God it's
because I need some divine intervention to get myself out of a jam I
got myself into. If I had right understanding and was aware of my
karma then I shouldn't have needed to.


>
> Because the Buddhas have power to answer prayer, and the Power comes
> from a greater Power.And the Buddhas can give s some of that power,
> reflected in our innermost selves.Thenn we can become fully human, and
> achieve bodhi( awakening, enightenment)but not Buddhahood.

Whooo Nelly. We *are* human, we don't become human. I have never in
my 12 years of studying ran across the concept of Buddha answering a
prayer or giving me power. Must be a different sect. I am not
looking to become part of the Buddhahood, but bodhi would be nice.


>
> Seems if you use that prayer, you Can make it.

In the path, praying is not a condition. Why all the importance
placed on it here. I have stated that Buddhists can believe in Gods.

>
> 'I believe that Buddhism is purer in a sense than other religions.'
>
> You would, or you wouldn't be one.

Clarification...I am part Buddhist.

> But it is natural for Westerners to seek the Wisdomn of the East and
> assume there is more truth to be found in the Buddha's teaching than in
> the Bible.
>

There is a fundemental difference which I have mentioned in a previous
post, namely where evil resides. Viewed with an ethics/moral slant
there is no difference between the two. There are differences in
philosophy between all religions.


>
> 'All the Prophets of God proclaim the same Faith.'

Faith? I believe in faith but discard religion.

I enjoy these discussions with you. I have to go, but will get around
to reading your other posts.

Scott

PS:I believe that karate can be a moving meditation, and that is the
link to religion, not so much the dojo kun. However meditation is a
means and not the end, so karate is also not an end. (just staying in
line with the FAQ)

fin_fa...@webtv.net

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May 26, 2001, 2:22:30 AM5/26/01
to
Jesse Greenawalt says:'A common enemy.Mars attacks, anyone?'

That'd do it for sure. Nothing unites faster than trouble from
outside.Be sure and get your Nelson Eddy CD's now.:-)

fin_fa...@webtv.net

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May 26, 2001, 5:06:30 AM5/26/01