Throws? heck, where are the kicks?
dick clark
me thimking about throws is, Where are the kicks? If one take the position
that there are no throws in shotokan, and therefore just a striking art,
then why are there not a lot more kicks? H1, why is it not block, kick,
punch right off the blocks? I would think that this triplet would show up
every where. There of course is no answer, Kata is what it is, or is that
what is meant by 'the dangerous moves' were removed?
Shawn Jefferson
I can only guess, but if you take the view that karate kata are a bunch of
moves that worked for someone, then I wouldn't expect to see a lot of
kicks. Kicks are a dangerous (for the kicker), risky business. Done
right, they can be the knock-out blow, done wrong and you end up on your
ass wondering what the hell happened. I think there are plenty of kicks in
our kata.
---
Shawn Jefferson
(fix reply to for email)
dick clark
However, one of the places I see where there ought to be a kick, or at least
a knee, is in H3, in the first set. There is just such an opening for a nice
knee to the crown jewels that it makes you wonder if there is something
missing! doncha know.
Shawn Jefferson
Why don't you add it then? Nobody's going to come back from the grave and
give you a scolding for changing their kata.
Shawn Jefferson
>Why don't you add it then? Nobody's going to come back from the grave and
>give you a scolding for changing their kata.
Come to think of it, why is any "expert" in karate even practicing someone
else's kata anyway?
<ah, a classic usenet faux pas, the reply to yourself-feels good being back
on amaks!>
dick clark
"Shawn Jefferson" <sjeffersonTAKE...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:71lek1djubjjupmdh...@4ax.com...
Rabid Weasel
I'm crossing this to RMA.
> Rob Redmond <robre...@24.ucebait.fightingchickens.com>:
>
>>Well said. Please take a look at the article on my web site tomorrow
>>morning and you might agree with it.
>
> I just read it. I agree with all of it, which isn't much of a suprise.
>
> As I was reading it, I was wondering where this left the typical karate
> club. As you pointed out, a karate club needs a steady flow of cash to
> keep the lights on. There is only a limited supply of potential customers
> for a karate club, and certainly creating life-long students is good
> business practice.
>
> I'm struck by the term that we use to describe our karate school: a club.
> I've been a member of other clubs before. Computer clubs, car clubs, even
> gardening clubs. There was no teacher, no lessons, no ranks, no tests.
> There were dues, and seminars. You knew who the experts were, and you
> could go strike up a conversation with one of them-maybe even learn a few
> things. Some of the people had incredible cars that they spent many, many
> hours restoring. Some had daily drivers that you could see daylight
> through the fenders. Everybody had some knowledge to impart, or some
> enthusiasm for their hobby. No one thought to tell the guy with the daily
> driver that he should spend his children's college money and spend all his
> waking hours restoring his car. No one really cared. They just liked
> getting together and talking about and doing their chosen hobby.
>
> Could a karate club work like this? I think that it could. Perhaps a
> mixture of the karate "school" and the karate club? Teach people up to a
> certain belt level and then say, "Yep, you're done. See ya." This is the
> karate school.
>
> The karate club is just a bunch of people who pay dues, have training space
> that everyone can use as they please. Break out in groups or pairs for
> practice. Have some of the experts or anyone who is willing give a seminar
> on specific aspects of your art, maybe every wednesday, every second
> wednesday or maybe the last wednesday of every month depending on how many
> people you have who want to show something cool to the rest. That would be
> interdependence.
>
> Yes, I know I'm dreaming.
Badger
<robre...@24.ucebait.fightingchickens.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 18:28:44 GMT, Rabid Weasel
><NO_lawson____SPAM@_NOSPAM_dayton.net> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 03:46:31 +0000, Shawn Jefferson wrote:
>>
>>I'm crossing this to RMA.
>
>The charter for this newsgroup forbids cross posting to any other
>newsgroup at any time.
I'll see that he's properly beaten. Would a souffle wisk be ok? ;-)
-Badger
Rabid Weasel
> On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 18:28:44 GMT, Rabid Weasel
> <NO_lawson____SPAM@_NOSPAM_dayton.net> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 03:46:31 +0000, Shawn Jefferson wrote:
>>
>>I'm crossing this to RMA.
>
> The charter for this newsgroup forbids cross posting to any other
> newsgroup at any time.
I'm new here and have been lurking for a little bit. I don't know if
you're serious or not.
Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk
Rabid Weasel
> Rabid Weasel <NO_lawson____SPAM@_NOSPAM_dayton.net>:
>>On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 03:46:31 +0000, Shawn Jefferson wrote:
>>
>>I'm crossing this to RMA.
>
> Why? If I wanted to post it to rec.martial-arts I probably would have.
Because I think many of the participants of RMA would appreciate the idea.
> Do you have something to add to the discussion?
I'm a member of a WMA *club* that runs very similar to what was described
and associate with other such clubs.
Yeah, I'd say I have something to add.
Shuurai
Rabid Weasel wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:16:36 +0000, Shawn Jefferson wrote:
>
> > Rabid Weasel <NO_lawson____SPAM@_NOSPAM_dayton.net>:
> >>On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 03:46:31 +0000, Shawn Jefferson wrote:
> >>
> >>I'm crossing this to RMA.
> >
> > Why? If I wanted to post it to rec.martial-arts I probably
> > would have.
>
> Because I think many of the participants of RMA would appreciate
> the idea.
For some reason, the people on the Shotokan groups like to keep
to themselves.
> > Do you have something to add to the discussion?
>
> I'm a member of a WMA *club* that runs very similar to what was
> described and associate with other such clubs.
I've been in various karate clubs that do the same thing, too.
It's not exactly a new idea; definately more popular in the
WMA and eclectic systems, but nothing new.
In a lot of ways it's better than the traditional "teacher-student"
schools. You tend to learn a lot more when you sharing knowledge
with other people than when you're just imitating someone.
> Yeah, I'd say I have something to add.
If you had loosly run organization where people trained to use
heavy sticks, would you call it a Club Club?
Rabid Weasel
> For some reason, the people on the Shotokan groups like to keep
> to themselves.
Insular folks. ;-)
>> Yeah, I'd say I have something to add.
>
> If you had loosly run organization where people trained to use
> heavy sticks, would you call it a Club Club?
Actually, yeah. But we use a non-english language to make it seem like
we're not. Cumann Bhata. "Bhata" means "stick." :-)
Shuurai
Rabid Weasel wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:24:19 -0700, Shuurai wrote:
>
> > For some reason, the people on the Shotokan groups like to keep
> > to themselves.
>
> Insular folks. ;-)
Well, in their defense, it wouldn't be good if the secrets to
killing a man with one reverse punch got out to the general
public. Imagine the chaos that might ensue.
> >> Yeah, I'd say I have something to add.
> >
> > If you had loosly run organization where people trained to use
> > heavy sticks, would you call it a Club Club?
>
> Actually, yeah. But we use a non-english language to make it
> seem like we're not. Cumann Bhata. "Bhata" means "stick." :-)
Origin of the baseball "Hey bhata, bhata, bhata - swing!"
Badger North
wrote:
>Well, in their defense, it wouldn't be good if the secrets to
>killing a man with one reverse punch got out to the general
>public. Imagine the chaos that might ensue.
ROFL Post of the Week!
Badger Jones
www.youngforest.ca
" One may have a thought and not say it.
This does not make me insular, it
merely separates me from you and that
mad woman who's always shouting at the
pigeons outside the supermarket."
Badger
<robre...@24.ucebait.fightingchickens.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:16:36 GMT, Shawn Jefferson
><sjeffersonTAKE...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>>Why?
>
>To cause trouble, no doubt.
Kirk's a good guy and an avid contributor.
-Badger
Shuurai
Rob Redmond wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:16:08 -0400, Badger North
> <young_...@REEEMOVEhotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>Well, in their defense, it wouldn't be good if the
> >>secrets to killing a man with one reverse punch got
> >>out to the general public. Imagine the chaos that
> >>might ensue.
> >
> >ROFL Post of the Week!
>
>
> --
> Rob Redmond
> http://www.24fightingchickens.com
Hey, nice to see that site back up :b
Sam the Bam
> >ROFL Post of the Week!
>
September 1993?
Invasion of Iraq?
Sam
Sam the Bam
> As I was reading it, I was wondering where this left the typical karate
> club. As you pointed out, a karate club needs a steady flow of cash to
>
> I'm struck by the term that we use to describe our karate school: a club.
> I've been a member of other clubs before. Computer clubs, car clubs, even
> gardening clubs. There was no teacher, no lessons, no ranks, no tests.
> There were dues, and seminars. You knew who the experts were,
>
> mixture of the karate "school" and the karate club? Teach people up to a
> certain belt level and then say, "Yep, you're done. See ya."
>
> training space that everyone can use as they please. Break out
> in groups or pairs for practice.
Like a tennis club.
> Yes, I know I'm dreaming.
You have outlined the main reason I quit karate. When you're
18, you are willing to do the student - sensei thing, the
drill sergeant - recruit relationship. Around age 30, the
whole 'bow to sensei' thing becomes oppressive. So either
you become Sensei, or continue to grovel... I bet a lot of
karateka drift away for lack of 'club' options.
Sam
Sam the Bam
oops
1993, 2003, what's the diff...
Sam
Badger
<robre...@24.ucebait.fightingchickens.com> wrote:
>I'm a good guy and an avid contributor, and I dare say I have caused
>more trouble than everyone else put together in some regards. I don't
>think those are exclusive qualities.
Er...well then if you're here, then causing trouble is not exclusionary.
Also if someone is contributing, what do you care if he causes some
'difficulty' with pre-conceptions now and then?
What kind of trouble do you imagine? ;-)
While I'm asking, what are these 'blue videos' that people talk about. Are
those just kata vids?
I looked at a couple of those and -man- are those guys old and feeble, or
just lackluster. I've seldom seen such pitiful performances. Then again the
persons demonstrating may be 60 year old 9th degree black belts, not in the
prime of life. Not trying to put down the style or anything. Most of them
would not even place in the tournaments around here. ;-) Am I missing
something? You'd think they'd give their A game since they're being filmed.
-Badger
Shawn Jefferson
Cool. So why don't you fill us in on how your club works, how it came into
being, how it does financially.
Is there a "head instructor"?
Are there classes with one person doing the majority of the teaching?
At what rank is a person considered not simply a student who must follow
along as the instructor leads?
How is the club run? Committee, sole-proprietorship, etc... ?
Sam the Bam
> >> September 1993 continues...
> >
> >September 1993?
> >Invasion of Iraq?
>
OIC, invasion of Usenet!
Nut jobs, noise makers, teen airheads...
"Send in the clowns" LOL
Hey waitaminute... I resemble that remark!
Sam
Bag-eating Bonobo
Rob Redmond wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:16:08 -0400, Badger North
>
> >>Well, in their defense, it wouldn't be good if the secrets to
> >>killing a man with one reverse punch got out to the general
> >>public. Imagine the chaos that might ensue.
> >
> >ROFL Post of the Week!
>
haHAH! zing.
but youknowwe'vecomesofar since then- they have awarely actualized
aliveness training, you see, and nobody's *ever* done that before. it's
new, i read it on the internet.
sir, your website was always a true joy to me- it shaped my attitudes
to a large extent, just to see someone be clearheaded and frank, and
still enjoy their training, cured me of the urge to go ultranippon, if
you will, and i sang your praises to all needing such information.
great writing, great resource, and it was invaluable to me.
i thank you, and since i'm not wearing a hat, i tip my skull to you.
carl
Rabid Weasel
http://cumannbhatadayton.atspace.com/
Our xlub stays pretty small, mostly 'cuz we don't do much advertising and
have only recently opened up out of "by invitation only" mode.
We meet in back yards and garages. No dues. No membership fees. We even
share some equipment (Sabres that are up to contact drills tend to be
expenseive).
We don't have a "head instructor." At least not at our club. The "lead"
members "teach" in the areas that they have skill in. A lot of it is
mutual cross-instruction.
We are a sub-group (if you will) of a separate organization and are ranked
through that. That said, ranks are not the most important thing. Seems
they come about every several years. The rank system that we're emulating
(Historic english Maisters system - see Terry Brown's book) the ranks were
separated about every 7 years or so with 4 ranks: Scholar, Free Scholar,
Provost, Master (and this is n't a hard, fast rule).
The advantages of this type of club are both obvious and inobvious. You
can be very choosy about memers and select training. You lose a fancy
dojo unless you want to drop serious cash on it.
Sorry about the poor typig. I smashed the crap out of my index finger
doing Irish Stickfighting last nigh. Think I might have broken it at the
tip, past the last joint. Hasnt' stopped oozing blood under the nail and
hurts like the blazes.
Shuurai
Rob Redmond wrote:
> On 13 Oct 2005 14:31:12 -0700, "Shuurai" <Shuu...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> Rob Redmond
> >> http://www.24fightingchickens.com
> >
> >Hey, nice to see that site back up :b
>
> has been put up by the same person with a different attitude.
I'll have to check it out... the old attitude was one of the
things I liked about it.
> Hopefully you will enjoy the articles there more than :P
> indicates you enjoyed the previous ones.
Actually, that was intended as a friendly :b I did enjoy the
articles there.
Fraser Johnston
"Rabid Weasel" <NO___lawson___SPAM@_NOSPAM_dayton.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.10.13.17.47.49.122120@_NOSPAM_dayton.net...
> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:24:19 -0700, Shuurai wrote:
>
>> For some reason, the people on the Shotokan groups like to keep
>> to themselves.
>
> Insular folks. ;-)
I'd be sticking my head in the sand too if I was still doing that shit that
doesn't work. Shotokan was a good intro to martial-arts but it really
taught me some crappy habits.
Fraser
Badger_S
<robre...@24.ucebait.fightingchickens.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 22:03:48 +0800, "Fraser Johnston"
><fra...@jcis.com.au> wrote:
>
>>
>>I'd be sticking my head in the sand too if I was still doing that shit that
>>doesn't work.
>
>Martial arts do not "work" or not.
>
>http://www.24fightingchickens.com/61
Uh-huh. Decent essay, but you failed to address 'ranges of fighting',
unless Shotokan has developed a shoot and a ground game.
But taking you at your word, what is your delivery system against a
wrestler who wants to take you to the ground? How did you develop your
delivery system?
I'm loathe to be so crass, but did you ever stop to consider the acronym to
your "Redmond’s Axiom of Platform Dependency" rule? (pronounced w/ a long
'A'.) ;-D
>
>>Shotokan was a good intro to martial-arts but it really
>>taught me some crappy habits.
>
>As someone who has done Shotokan for a long time, I cannot help but
>agree with you.
Hm. Care to say what they are?
-B
Full Name
robre...@24.ucebait.fightingchickens.com says...
>
> I can only speak for the bad habits of mine that I picked up from my
> instructors. One of them is assuming everyone else will be perfectly
> upright with runway model-like posture, presenting a nice, safe,
> wrestling-free environment.
This is actually an amusing thing, when I teach kata
applications. It is always amazing (and hilarious) when I find
3-dans forgetting how to do Heian shodan (the first kata learned
in JKA) as soon as I put a body of an opponent in the way. Put
a hand on them and ask them to do a kata move, and they freak
out.
> Another is the snobbery that I learned - believing one martial art to
> be superior to another - of course in this case, my own.
This is natural, sadly. Ingroup vs outgroup dynamics.
> Yet another is the foolish belief in following some idea of Japanese
> tradition - that it was important to do things someone else's way to
> meet their satisfaction and earn another rank rather than to
> personalize the karate experience to myself....
Tradition is an aesthetics thing, imo. Just like doing Tea
ceremony - if it defines ALL of you, you have problems; if it
only defines what you are doing in that context, it may be
appropriate.
> But keep in mind, many come to martial arts training for their own
> reasons - most do not have fighting in mind. They actually just want
> to have fun or have some other purpose. I try to respect everyone's
> purpose and avoid judging them based on what I think my purpose for
> training is.
Here is wisdom, I think. Remember the counterexample I gave of
Kyudo? There are folks who see archery as training for homicide
(or food gathering); but it can also simply be a method for
training internal balance and quietude. The denigrators claim
that it's mental masturbation - but what the heck, it hurts no-
one and it feels good. What's your beef?
- elmar
Shuurai
Badger_S wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:45:50 -0400, Rob Redmond
> <robre...@24.ucebait.fightingchickens.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 22:03:48 +0800, "Fraser Johnston"
> ><fra...@jcis.com.au> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>I'd be sticking my head in the sand too if I was still doing that
> >>shit that doesn't work.
> >
> >Martial arts do not "work" or not.
> >
> >http://www.24fightingchickens.com/61
>
> Uh-huh. Decent essay, but you failed to address 'ranges of fighting',
> unless Shotokan has developed a shoot and a ground game.
Talk about missing a point...
> But taking you at your word, what is your delivery system against a
> wrestler who wants to take you to the ground? How did you develop your
> delivery system?
Mine is to stab them in the torso when they get close enough. Or hit
them in the head with whatever blunt object I happen to have. Barring
that, I'll fight them on the ground.
Karate systems in general tend to be pretty thin when it comes to
dealing with takedowns and ground-fighting. What that means is that
the karate practitioner needs to take it upon himself to strengthen
that area of his training. I'm sure you're familiar with the term
cross-training. Funny how folks assume that it isn't allowed for us
karate types.
How does a boxer deal with a wrestler that wants to take him to the
ground? I've done boxing for years - don't recall takedowns ever
being addressed, not even once. Even less than karate. Heck, even
less that tae kwon do!
So, judging by your response to Rob, can we assume that you mean
to say that boxing doesn't work either? Because it obviously does
not even *have* a delivery system against a wrestler coming in for
a takedown.
Badger_S
>> Uh-huh. Decent essay, but you failed to address 'ranges of fighting',
>> unless Shotokan has developed a shoot and a ground game.
>
>Talk about missing a point...
Mea culpa.
-B