Shotokan/Wadokai are useless in a real fight
Ghostwheel
Douglas Mark Trueman wrote:
>
> I suppose I'm going to get a lot of email saying how wrong/stupid
> I am for saying this, but I firmly believe it's true. I have no
> problems with Shotokan saying that it helps develop one's
> character and spirituality, but the Shotokan club I just left is
> now saying that it's an effective form of self-defense and I just
> don't think this is so. I got into a fight after a year of
> karate (well, it was more like a beating), and *nothing* I had
> learned was of any help to me. I was on a porch so there was
> *no* room to kick or punch as I had been taught. Instead I was
> cornered against a wall and pummeled mercilessly. (I had to have
> reconstructive surgery on my face). I've seen tons of street
> fights go to the ground, and my club never taught a single thing
> about how to fight on the ground. So now I'm taking jiu-jitsu.
> So for all of you people who think that you're learning how to
> defend yourself, take my advice: you're only kidding yourself.
> If you *know* that you're in it for character development, fine.
> But don't think that you're going to be able to defend yourself
> for real. If anyone wants to discuss this, email me.
Since Adam already beat me to the punch, I will agree that only 1 year
was not NEARLY enough to be of use. Also you failed to mention several
points, what led up to the fight, how many attackers, why you didn't
jump off the porch into a yard where you had room to move, and
personally, I'd RATHER be back against the wall (nothing like a cornered
cat/rat IMHO). Keep your Shotokan, study your Jujitsu and then when
you've got less of an emotional outtake, look back and contemplate how
to prevent this in the future. A great deal of what Funakoshi taught was
RECOGNIZING potentially dangerous situations and AVOIDING THEM. As a
(former <BG>) street fighter with a lengthy history of Shotokan (14
years) and now Kajukenbo, I have always subscribed to Heinlein when it
came to fighting, "Do it fast, do it dirty, do it first." and its worked
for me so far.
--
Ghostwheel - Kelly Rosato
------==Kajukenbo==------
Through This Fist Way, One Gains Long Life And Happiness
Douglas Mark Trueman
I suppose I'm going to get a lot of email saying how wrong/stupid
I am for saying this, but I firmly believe it's true. I have no
problems with Shotokan saying that it helps develop one's
character and spirituality, but the Shotokan club I just left is
now saying that it's an effective form of self-defense and I just
don't think this is so. I got into a fight after a year of
karate (well, it was more like a beating), and *nothing* I had
learned was of any help to me. I was on a porch so there was
*no* room to kick or punch as I had been taught. Instead I was
cornered against a wall and pummeled mercilessly. (I had to have
reconstructive surgery on my face). I've seen tons of street
fights go to the ground, and my club never taught a single thing
about how to fight on the ground. So now I'm taking jiu-jitsu.
So for all of you people who think that you're learning how to
defend yourself, take my advice: you're only kidding yourself.
If you *know* that you're in it for character development, fine.
But don't think that you're going to be able to defend yourself
for real. If anyone wants to discuss this, email me.
--
--Shun-goku-satsu doogie--
Check out my home page: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~dmtruema/
--
--Shun-goku-satsu doogie--
Check out my home page: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~dmtruema/
--
--Shun-goku-satsu doogie--
Check out my home page: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~dmtruema/
Adam Fahy
After a year of training? This is hardly a compelling argument.
-Adam
Richard J. Shepard
Douglas Mark Trueman wrote:
>
> I suppose I'm going to get a lot of email saying how wrong/stupid
> I am for saying this, but I firmly believe it's true. I have no
> problems with Shotokan saying that it helps develop one's
> character and spirituality, but the Shotokan club I just left is
> now saying that it's an effective form of self-defense and I just
> don't think this is so. I got into a fight after a year of
> karate (well, it was more like a beating), and *nothing* I had
> learned was of any help to me. I was on a porch so there was
> *no* room to kick or punch as I had been taught. Instead I was
> cornered against a wall and pummeled mercilessly. (I had to have
> reconstructive surgery on my face). I've seen tons of street
> fights go to the ground, and my club never taught a single thing
> about how to fight on the ground. So now I'm taking jiu-jitsu.
> So for all of you people who think that you're learning how to
> defend yourself, take my advice: you're only kidding yourself.
> If you *know* that you're in it for character development, fine.
> But don't think that you're going to be able to defend yourself
> for real. If anyone wants to discuss this, email me.
>
> Check out my home page: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~dmtruema/
There are several possible reasons for your patheticness, but the
ineffectiveness of Shotokan is not one of them. And no I have never
studied Shotokan. Maybe you had a poor teacher or just didn't learn
what you should have...didn't train long enough with the basics so they
were reflex.
I know a woman who is about 5'2" 110lbs and has been studying TKD for
maybe a year now, and she can really kick the shit out of a lot of guys
I know. Why? How? Because she trained hard on her basics and made sure
she had perfect form and could apply those techniques effectively...that
means doing forms, bag work, and sparring. Of course she isn't great or
anything, but she is "competent" because she has a good teacher and
works hard.
----------------------------------------
Richard J. Shepard (she...@okstate.edu)
Oklahoma State University -Economics/Law
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/3776
"Serenity comes from old knowledge.
Progress comes from new knowledge."
Erik Harris
In article <5is3qq$a...@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>, dmtr...@acs2.acs.ucalgary.ca (Douglas Mark Trueman) wrote:
>I suppose I'm going to get a lot of email saying how wrong/stupid
>I am for saying this, but I firmly believe it's true. I have no
>problems with Shotokan saying that it helps develop one's
>character and spirituality, but the Shotokan club I just left is
>now saying that it's an effective form of self-defense and I just
>don't think this is so.
I have a friend who studied Shotokan for quite some time, and although he
doesn't think much of it himself (and I'm not a big fan of it myself), it has
protected him from a mugging involving both a knife and a gun (and three
assailants).
Now, I don't know what your definition of 'useless for self defense is', but
this doesn't seem to fit it.
Erik Harris
es...@cornell.edu
http://esh7.resnet.cornell.edu
To avoid unsolicited mail, my address at the top is INCORRECT. Please be sure
to use -=>es...@cornell.edu<=- to reply in email, without the underscore.
jmm4...@glaxo.com
In article <5is3qq$a...@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>,
dmtr...@acs2.acs.ucalgary.ca (Douglas Mark Trueman) wrote:
>
>
> I suppose I'm going to get a lot of email saying how wrong/stupid
> I am for saying this, but I firmly believe it's true. I have no
> problems with Shotokan saying that it helps develop one's
> character and spirituality, but the Shotokan club I just left is
> now saying that it's an effective form of self-defense and I just
> karate (well, it was more like a beating), and *nothing* I had
> learned was of any help to me. I was on a porch so there was
> *no* room to kick or punch as I had been taught. Instead I was
> cornered against a wall and pummeled mercilessly. (I had to have
> reconstructive surgery on my face). I've seen tons of street
> fights go to the ground, and my club never taught a single thing
> about how to fight on the ground. So now I'm taking jiu-jitsu.
> So for all of you people who think that you're learning how to
> defend yourself, take my advice: you're only kidding yourself.
> If you *know* that you're in it for character development, fine.
> But don't think that you're going to be able to defend yourself
> for real. If anyone wants to discuss this, email me.
1978: I had been studying Shotokan for three years, was first degree
brown (just below black) I was a teenager. A teen age boy got his kicks
bombing the little kids on my school bus with snow balls when they got
off the bus.
I got off the bus to talk to him, and he came up to me with a big wad of
snow in his hand to hit me with it (bear in mind, I am a girl; I was
wearing a dress and heels). I knew it was too late to talk. I snapped
into a classic zenkutsu dachi and hit him with a lunge punch. Yes,
surprise was definitely on my side. He was *not* expecting me to be any
more than a victim. I will never forget it. His knees came straight up
in the air. There was terrible *crack* sound, and he hit the ground. I
thought I had killed him. I was so glad when he moved.
Shotokan is not a panacea. It cannot work for every person in every
situation, but it's a great weapon to have when you need character,
strong spirit, **and** a good right punch. I now am a second degree
black belt in taekwon do, but I have a great respect for Shotokan.
Effectiveness sometimes depends on who teaches you a martial art, how it
is taught, and how long you spend on it, but I would say that
Shotokan--taught well--is definitely worthwhile. And jujitsu--though a
fine martial art with a wonderful history--has its drawbacks, especially
for women. No martial art is perfect.
Jeri Massi
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Don Wagner
dmtr...@acs2.acs.ucalgary.ca (Douglas Mark Trueman) wrote:
>I suppose I'm going to get a lot of email saying how wrong/stupid
>I am for saying this, but I firmly believe it's true. I have no
>problems with Shotokan saying that it helps develop one's
>character and spirituality, but the Shotokan club I just left is
>now saying that it's an effective form of self-defense and I just
>don't think this is so. I got into a fight after a year of
>karate (well, it was more like a beating), and *nothing* I had
>learned was of any help to me. I was on a porch so there was
>*no* room to kick or punch as I had been taught. Instead I was
>cornered against a wall and pummeled mercilessly. (I had to have
>reconstructive surgery on my face). I've seen tons of street
>fights go to the ground, and my club never taught a single thing
>about how to fight on the ground. So now I'm taking jiu-jitsu.
>So for all of you people who think that you're learning how to
>defend yourself, take my advice: you're only kidding yourself.
>If you *know* that you're in it for character development, fine.
>But don't think that you're going to be able to defend yourself
>for real. If anyone wants to discuss this, email me.
The trouble is how you trained, not what you learned or didn't learn.
--Don--
Member of PETA
(People Eating Tasty Animals)
Kathleen Bauer
In <5itejc$1...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> dawa...@ix.netcom.com (Don
most trouble?
ED B.
Don Wagner
af...@emily.oit.umass.edu (Adam Fahy) wrote:
>After a year of training? This is hardly a compelling argument.
>-Adam
Hey Adam,
With serious training and a realistic approach to fighting, a year is
enough to give an average newbie a definite fighting chance.
One of our newbies a few years ago was attending college in NYC. He
and his friends were stopped by some guys coming out of a club and a
fight began. Our newbie at the time had about 6 months of training
(3x a week, approx. 7 hrs total), is 5'10", 175 lbs.. He took a
couple of hard hits and then started laying into the guy hitting him.
He managed to jam his attackers arms, use the guy as a shield so as
not to have to deal with a multiple attacker situation and drive some
knees into the guy forcing him to fall. He helped his friends and
they ran like hell.
The main thing is making the training as useful as possible for real
situations, not in-house sparring or fantasy events.
Don Wagner
k...@ix.netcom.com(Kathleen Bauer ) wrote:
> Doesn't seem like that the least experienced maist gets into the
>most trouble?
>
> ED B.
It's an awareness thing. ;-)
Stay away from clubs and bars. Avoid loudmouthed assholes and their
friends. Don't flip everyone who cuts you off in traffic the bird...
etc. ;-)
damon...@hotmail.com
[headers redirected - please do not x-post into AMAKS]
sorry. but since this ostensibly concerns shotokan.
Rob Redmond <big...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>I'd be happy to read any suggestions of how karate builds character -
>then laugh my head off at them.
Why do I get the feeling that you would be happy to laugh your
head off at anyone with whom you dissagre?
>Of course it wasn't. You're a geek. Of course you are. If you were
>able to fight, you probably wouldn't have an interest in fighting
>arts. People who can fight aren't insecure and don't take up fighting
>arts, in general. When they do, it's for money, and there is none in
>karate, therefore they box.
If you really knew how to use a computer you wouldn't be here using one.
If you really were computer literate you would be using your online service
to spam, so you would Make Money Fast.
In fact, you should really just get an acount with AOL because you are not
nerd enough for usenet.
>My grandfather was a DI in the US Army during WWII. He served against
>the Japanese in the Aleutian Islands, then returned to serve as an
>officer training drill instructor. His favorite saying about karate
>schools is this: "A couple of rednecks with some beer in them can
>usually clean out all but one or two of them."
What's you point with this? here's one for you:
And when my grandmother served as a whore in WWII her saying about GIs
was: "Once they take their pants off, it's easy to clean out their
wallets".
>He's right. In any karate school, no matter how long they train or
>what they do, 90% of the members will never amount to anything other
>than a pajama clad idiot flailing about thinking he is Japanese. Most
>quit, and of the rest who stay, 90% amount to nothing. They suck.
>They are nerds, athletically hampered, unable to fight, untrainable,
>4-F, rejected by a wartime draft -- hopeless.
Yep, and on these 'froups, no matter how long some partipate they may never
understand paths, headers, and IPv4. They just /think/ they are geeks.
>As an instructor, I hold out hope for all of my students, but I could
It is disturbing that you are an instructor.
>show you my karate club members and point to one as a fighter and the
>rest as hobbyists, unfortunately. Despite my best efforts, a nerd is
Uh-Ohh, I didn't realize that we were in the presence of the one /true/
Karate Fighter. So is there a litmus test? Can one take a piss test to
tell if one really is a /fighter/ ?
>a nerd, and nerds get beat up. Our society literally grows people so
>that they can't fight. Dress shoes, TV, and cars take away most of
That's funny, I've noticed that violence has gone up in our society
and 14yr olds are /fighting/ and /killing/ each other. Maybe Atlanta
is a peace loving comunity were people can't fight.
>life's little obstructions. Think about it. In a world where a 400
>pound fatso can live a full life, toughness is not being groomed.
>You can't train a dork to fight. You can take a street tough and show
>him where to aim and when to launch, though. Big difference there.
I bet you would like to take a time trip back to Sparta, where Men were
tough and good fighters, and being tough men they prefered to ...oopps!
don't want to bring up the gay threads, that /might/ be flamey.
>At any rate, at least you learned the truth and lived. Most
>instructors won't tell you to your face, "Kid, you are skinny, pale,
>weak, slow, and stiff. My little sister could beat you up if you were
>a yondan."
Yeah right and my little sister could get your credit history.
I think he may not have practiced enough, and/or been mentally unprepared
for the randomness of a real fight; but that is entirely different
than someone's little sister (I'm assuming that the sister is /little/,
say under five feet tall) could beat up a healthy, grown adult.
> Just buy a gun and shoot it at targets.
yep. Killfile. *plonk*
best gun on usenet.
Yours Trol^H^Huely
Damon Sand
--
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Eric Saul Rosenthal
Don Wagner (dawa...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Member of PETA
: (People Eating Tasty Animals)
I agree with this - if a martial art cannot help you after a
year of study, it's time to get a new art or a new teacher.
I'm tired of hearing how it takes XXX # of years to get good
at this martial art - like aikido, if it takes 10 years to learn,
maybe the training methods should be improved...
Eric Rosenthal
Chris Wade
Douglas Mark Trueman wrote:
>
> I suppose I'm going to get a lot of email saying how wrong/stupid
> I am for saying this, but I firmly believe it's true. I have no
> problems with Shotokan saying that it helps develop one's
> character and spirituality, but the Shotokan club I just left is
> now saying that it's an effective form of self-defense and I just
> don't think this is so. I got into a fight after a year of
> karate (well, it was more like a beating), and *nothing* I had
> learned was of any help to me. I was on a porch so there was
> *no* room to kick or punch as I had been taught. Instead I was
> cornered against a wall and pummeled mercilessly. (I had to have
> reconstructive surgery on my face). I've seen tons of street
> fights go to the ground, and my club never taught a single thing
> about how to fight on the ground. So now I'm taking jiu-jitsu.
> So for all of you people who think that you're learning how to
> defend yourself, take my advice: you're only kidding yourself.
> If you *know* that you're in it for character development, fine.
> But don't think that you're going to be able to defend yourself
> for real. If anyone wants to discuss this, email me.
>
You're right, Doug, you are probably going to get a lot of e-mail about
this one.
I am one of those people who think you are completely wrong.
First of all, one year of training is not that much IMO. Your
instructors are still trying to teach you the very basics.
A blanket statement that karate doesn't teach you to defend yourself,
coming from someone who only studied for one year doesn't hold a lot of
weight as far as I'm concerned.
It's interesting that you say there wasn't room to kick or punch, and
yet you indicate that you were "pummelled mercilessly". Obviously your
opponent didn't have the same problem striking that you did. Also, what
kind of training did your opponent have? What makes you think that if
you had spent your year in jiu jitsu instead of karate you wouldn't have
gotten pummelled just as bad.
What about using your elbows, knees, headbutt (just to name a few).
There are a lot of techniques that may have been useful in your
situation, but since you are really just a beginner, they may not have
been taught to you yet.
I've been in martial arts for 16 years, 12 of those in karate and I can
say that I feel pretty comfortable with defending myself. I'm not saying
karate or any art is the be all end all, but every art has a lot to
offer and shouldn't be disregarded out of hand.
Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of sympathy for you. It's too bad that
you got hurt, but as you've probably seen in this newsgroup blanket
statements bashing another art usually draw a lot of fire.
Chris
Don Wagner
Adam Fahy <af...@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> wrote:
>I totally agree, but unfortunately this is hardly practiced in the
>majority of schools (remembering, with relevence to the "Anti-Rape"
>thread, a Women's self-defence course at my school which had them doing
>kata, etc)
>-Adam
A little off topic...
We held a 6 week course at a local industrial park for womens self
defnese, not anti-rape per say but thats what was in the minds of
quite a few of the people who signed up.
The class was held in a large conference room in one of the buildings.
Everyone filed in, left their coats, briefcases and pocketbooks along
the back wall and on tables toward the rear of the room. One of my
instructors started the class and 5 min in stopped and asked this
question. "Why didn't anyone stop the man who came in from taking
your belongings?" One of our people, dressed in street clothes,
walked in during the intro and picked up a few coats and bags and
walked out. Not one of the 2 dozen people noticed.
Awareness counts. ;-)
--Don--
If we're not supposed to eat animals
why are they made out of meat?
Adam Fahy
Don Wagner wrote:
> With serious training and a realistic approach to fighting, a year is
> enough to give an average newbie a definite fighting chance.
[snipped example of a 6-month trainee's fighting experience]
I would say (remembering how "good" a fighter I was so early) this is
more a function of the individual (and situation) than of the style in
particular. In any case, a year, while it is enough time to realize
perhaps this particular style isn't for you, is not long enough to
seriously discredit the same style.
> The main thing is making the training as useful as possible for real
> situations, not in-house sparring or fantasy events.
les...@sverige.net
Sorry, about you beeing beaten up. I do believe that the instruction you recieved
was insufficient. A good and commited instructor should cover all aspects of fighting.
Don't drop Shotokan, find another club.
Leslie Jensen
5 Dan JKA, Sweden
http://www.sverige.net/usr/leslie/
Swedish Shotokan Ass.
http://www.sverige.net/usr/eskk/
mark a goetsch
$ I have no
$ problems with Shotokan saying that it helps develop one's
$ character and spirituality, but the Shotokan club I just left is
$ now saying that it's an effective form of self-defense and I just
$ don't think this is so.
What did they say or do that prepared you or made you believe that it was
an effective form of self-defense ??
$I got into a fight after a year of
$ karate (well, it was more like a beating), and *nothing* I had
$ learned was of any help to me. I was on a porch so there was
$ *no* room to kick or punch as I had been taught. Instead I was
$ cornered against a wall and pummeled mercilessly. (I had to have
$ reconstructive surgery on my face).
This scenario suggests that you challenged the group in some way. Usually a
group will not just jump up on a porch for no reason even if they are
drunk. A bar is a different story.......
$ I've seen tons of street
$ fights go to the ground, and my club never taught a single thing
$ about how to fight on the ground.
You got beaten that badly after watching tons of street fights. If you are
in an environment that has that many fights you have no doubt been in more
than a few and should be able to defend yourself better even without a
Martial Art.
$ So now I'm taking jiu-jitsu.
$ So for all of you people who think that you're learning how to
$ defend yourself, take my advice: you're only kidding yourself.
Many of the people that you are addressing on this group have been in
*real* street fights. All are still alive, none that I know have had to be
hospitalized. They probably think that you are kidding yourself.
A couple of other points.
1st : Ju-jitsu is not the answer nor is any technique orientated Martial
Art going to help you. The reason is simple. It is the mind and spirit of
the person that control's the fight not the specific technique. How often
have you seen the more aggressive Dog win in a street fight.
2nd : If you had gone too the ground in the above situation you probably
would not be writing us in this newsgroup. In a multi-attack situation
going to the ground means that you will not be getting off the
ground......ever..
3rd : How were you trained in Shotokan ?? There are a number of clubs today
that teach nothing about freesparring, distance or timing. They teach only
basics and Kata. The situation is similar to the difference between
Kenjutsu and Kendo. Kenjutsu is a bunch of time-worn forms with the
Japanese forms. When practiced with a partner they are practiced in a
highly ritualized method. Kendo is more sport orientated, you have special
sword substitutes that you whack each other with relying on timing and
distance. A kenjutsu person like a person that does only Kihon and Kata in
Karate will have a fantastic stroke or punch (and very nice looking). The
kendo person will have the ability to hit with technique (like
free-sparring in karate) the other person with his technique even if it
isn't maximized or beautiful. In a real struggle, want to bet who wins ????
This is not to say Kihon and Kata are useless (far from it) but if that is
all that you did well....you have your answer.
You sound like a person that is blaming a Martial Art for a problem that
was his own. If the gun is on the table far away and you get shot because
of it can you blame the gun???? If you backed yourself in a corner with nor
room to punch or even kick, can you blame Karate ??? What if the same thing
happens with JuJitsu (which in this situation probably would have, or even
worse) do you blame that too ???
There are no easy fixed here. It wasn't the Martial Art that failed but the
mentality that you fought with. With a strong mind and no training you
would have done better. With a weak mind, you have no chance!!!!
Mark
daear...@aol.com
In article <3351B6...@ix.netcom.com>, Ghostwheel <kro...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>Douglas Mark Trueman wrote:
>>
>> I suppose I'm going to get a lot of email saying how wrong/stupid
>> I am for saying this, but I firmly believe it's true. I have no
>> problems with Shotokan saying that it helps develop one's
>> character and spirituality, but the Shotokan club I just left is
>> now saying that it's an effective form of self-defense and I just
>> don't think this is so. I got into a fight after a year of
>> karate (well, it was more like a beating), and *nothing* I had
>> learned was of any help to me. I was on a porch so there was
>> *no* room to kick or punch as I had been taught. Instead I was
>> cornered against a wall and pummeled mercilessly. (I had to have
>> reconstructive surgery on my face). I've seen tons of street
>> fights go to the ground, and my club never taught a single thing
>> about how to fight on the ground. So now I'm taking jiu-jitsu.
>> So for all of you people who think that you're learning how to
>> defend yourself, take my advice: you're only kidding yourself.
>> If you *know* that you're in it for character development, fine.
>> But don't think that you're going to be able to defend yourself
>> for real. If anyone wants to discuss this, email me.
>
>Since Adam already beat me to the punch, I will agree that only 1 year
>was not NEARLY enough to be of use. Also you failed to mention several
>points, what led up to the fight, how many attackers, why you didn't
>jump off the porch into a yard where you had room to move, and
>personally, I'd RATHER be back against the wall (nothing like a cornered
>cat/rat IMHO). Keep your Shotokan, study your Jujitsu and then when
>you've got less of an emotional outtake, look back and contemplate how
>to prevent this in the future. A great deal of what Funakoshi taught was
>RECOGNIZING potentially dangerous situations and AVOIDING THEM. As a
>(former <BG>) street fighter with a lengthy history of Shotokan (14
>years) and now Kajukenbo, I have always subscribed to Heinlein when it
>came to fighting, "Do it fast, do it dirty, do it first." and its worked
>for me so far.
>
>
IMHO you gave some good advice. Shotokan is effective when taught by a competant instructor.
Rajeev Venugopal
I think that there's a few critical factors to look at right off the bat:
1. Psychological trauma- buddy just took a beating
2. Resentment against the MA which was supposed to come to his aid
3. Limited training time
4. What type of self defense (versus sport) training in Shotokan did Doug receive?
His post comes right out of what we've been discussing for the past three months (and
longer)- the idea that different martial arts have different learning curves and that
different arts are concerned with different approaches towards self defense, sport, and
conflict resolution. I don't think that it's wrong that Doug comes off on Shotokan, even
though I train it. I've seen shodans and nidans who probably couldn't beat their way out
of a wet paper bag. It all depends on the focus of the training. What he should keep in
mind, is that Shotokan, like all martial arts, has to be focussed to reflect one's own
reasons for taking MA. The tools are there, all that's needed is practice AND a mental
blueprint. It's like building a porch, everyone has the tools and materials, only a few
through focussed practice have the knowledge. In this sense, I agree with Ghostwheel's
post.
Raj
Douglas Mark Trueman wrote:
>
> I suppose I'm going to get a lot of email saying how wrong/stupid
> I am for saying this, but I firmly believe it's true. I have no
> problems with Shotokan saying that it helps develop one's
> character and spirituality, but the Shotokan club I just left is
> now saying that it's an effective form of self-defense and I just
> don't think this is so. I got into a fight after a year of
> karate (well, it was more like a beating), and *nothing* I had
> learned was of any help to me. I was on a porch so there was
> *no* room to kick or punch as I had been taught. Instead I was
> cornered against a wall and pummeled mercilessly. (I had to have
> reconstructive surgery on my face). I've seen tons of street
> fights go to the ground, and my club never taught a single thing
> about how to fight on the ground. So now I'm taking jiu-jitsu.
> So for all of you people who think that you're learning how to
> defend yourself, take my advice: you're only kidding yourself.
> If you *know* that you're in it for character development, fine.
> But don't think that you're going to be able to defend yourself
> for real. If anyone wants to discuss this, email me.
>
Don Wagner
rose...@cs.ucdavis.edu (Eric Saul Rosenthal) wrote:
>Don Wagner (dawa...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: af...@emily.oit.umass.edu (Adam Fahy) wrote:
>:
>: >After a year of training? This is hardly a compelling argument.
>:
>: >-Adam
>:
>: Hey Adam,
>: With serious training and a realistic approach to fighting, a year is
>: enough to give an average newbie a definite fighting chance.
>:
>: One of our newbies a few years ago was attending college in NYC. He
>: and his friends were stopped by some guys coming out of a club and a
>: fight began. Our newbie at the time had about 6 months of training
>: (3x a week, approx. 7 hrs total), is 5'10", 175 lbs.. He took a
>: couple of hard hits and then started laying into the guy hitting him.
>: He managed to jam his attackers arms, use the guy as a shield so as
>: not to have to deal with a multiple attacker situation and drive some
>: knees into the guy forcing him to fall. He helped his friends and
>: they ran like hell.
>:
>: The main thing is making the training as useful as possible for real
>: situations, not in-house sparring or fantasy events.
>: --Don--
>: Member of PETA
>: (People Eating Tasty Animals)
>:
>I agree with this - if a martial art cannot help you after a
>year of study, it's time to get a new art or a new teacher.
>I'm tired of hearing how it takes XXX # of years to get good
>at this martial art - like aikido, if it takes 10 years to learn,
>maybe the training methods should be improved...
> Eric Rosenthal
The goal of studing any specific art is what matters. I don't train
and study to "kick ass and take names" but my training is highly
geared towards this. I'm comfortable learning from others who don't
train this way as well.
If health and fitness are the goals then who cares how long it takes
to "become good"? ;-)
Erik Harris
In article <5iub11$it8$1...@bilbo.reference.com>, damon...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>I'd be happy to read any suggestions of how karate builds character -
>>then laugh my head off at them.
>Why do I get the feeling that you would be happy to laugh your
>head off at anyone with whom you dissagre?
I get the feeling you're right.
>>As an instructor, I hold out hope for all of my students, but I could
>>show you my karate club members and point to one as a fighter and the
>>rest as hobbyists, unfortunately. Despite my best efforts, a nerd is
>Uh-Ohh, I didn't realize that we were in the presence of the one /true/
>Karate Fighter. So is there a litmus test? Can one take a piss test to
>tell if one really is a /fighter/ ?
Sounds to me simply that he can't teach effectively.
It is scary that he teaches martial arts.. But when I look around, I see a
lot of people that take people's money and waste their time or teach in an
inexcusably unsafe environment.
Bitchy Butch
In article <5iuatd$43$2...@mark.ucdavis.edu>, rose...@cs.ucdavis.edu (Eric
Saul Rosenthal) wrote:
> I agree with this - if a martial art cannot help you after a
> year of study, it's time to get a new art or a new teacher.
> I'm tired of hearing how it takes XXX # of years to get good
> at this martial art - like aikido, if it takes 10 years to learn,
> maybe the training methods should be improved...
And while we're at it: I wanna become a virtuoso violinist In Just THREE
HOURS!!! Not to mention a master gardener by only reading seed catalogs,
and in fact I feel as long as I've got off my ass for long enough to come
on down to the registrar's and enroll:They OUGHT to GIVE ME THE PHD THEN
AND THERE! </sarcasm>
Get real. Martial arts as an effective form of self defense _do_ take time
to obtain proficiency. Not only do you have to build up a language or
system of physical and mental fighting techniques as _reflexes_, but you
have to UNLEARN your original self-defense instincts/reflexes - many of
which run counter to solid MA basics.
In my experience it takes someone getting instruction in Shotokan Karate 2
- 3 times a week and working out on their own for an hour or so each day
about 18 months before their proficiency. In fact I find that beginners
are often at a distinct disadvantage because they are breaking down their
old reflexes and have not replaced them entirely. The result is someone
who is hesitant, doesn't 'flow,' who "thinks too much," is slow, and whose
techniques are in poor form.
Yes I _am_ saying that karate study for beginners is a liability in a fight.
However... once the initial hump on the learning curve is overcome, I find
Karate helpful... from experience (mostly because MAist seem to be able to
void conflicts, but also from actual application of waza while defending
myself).
As to the individual who got beat up: I am sorry, and hope that you heal
well. I hope also that you find yourself in less violence in the future
(whether or not you study _any_ MA).
Regards,
Alexis
PS I think this is a problem with short term "self defense" courses which
concentrate on physical training; no good unless the students spend
thousands of hours practising these things. I feel the psychological and
strategic training can be absorbed effectively in the short term though...
Don Wagner
urd05j...@uno.edu (R) wrote:
>In article <33529F...@SYMPATICO.CA>, Chris Wade <cw...@SYMPATICO.CA> writes:
>(snip of other stuff)
>>It's interesting that you say there wasn't room to kick or punch, and
>>yet you indicate that you were "pummelled mercilessly". Obviously your
>>opponent didn't have the same problem striking that you did. Also, what
>I found that odd as well. How can there not be room to kick straight in front
>of you(him). Unless the porch was filled with junk and he was in it all.
It's not hard to see at all...
The poor slob was rushed, hit, went into a defensive position (covered
up) and got creamed. He had probably lost after the first serious
hit.
>A kata that came to mind was Tekki Shodan. At 1 year practice I doubt he
>learned that kata, but it fits so well in that situation(the kiba dachi)....
>not saying that he should have gotten in kiba dachi stance, but..you get it
>huh?
>(more snip)
>>Chris
The last think anyone should be doing is thinking "Ahhh, kata/form XYZ
will save me!" ;-)
It just doesn't work that way in reality.
Roshan Mamarvar
Eric Saul Rosenthal wrote:
>
> :
>
> I agree with this - if a martial art cannot help you after a
> year of study, it's time to get a new art or a new teacher.
> I'm tired of hearing how it takes XXX # of years to get good
> at this martial art - like aikido, if it takes 10 years to learn,
> maybe the training methods should be improved...
>
Sorry dudes, but not everything in life is instant and ready
in five minutes.You should leave your McMartial Arts, and try some
proper stuff.
Strangely enough, that everybody seems to accept that Aikido
takes long to learn, but expect from other MA's some kind of
"Instant-Superman" stuff in 6-months crash courses ...
Roshan
--
. : ____________________________
: |____/ \__
|That's /mama...@rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de\ |______
|what I/________________________________\think !|
|______\ /_______|
sCn!\______________________________/
Solomon Paul Sammy
In article <33528F...@oitunix.oit.umass.edu>, Adam Fahy
<af...@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> wrote:
> > The main thing is making the training as useful as possible for real
> > situations, not in-house sparring or fantasy events.
> I totally agree, but unfortunately this is hardly practiced in the
> majority of schools (remembering, with relevence to the "Anti-Rape"
> thread, a Women's self-defence course at my school which had them doing
> kata, etc)
I had a similiar experience to the original poster, a while back. I've
tried to look apon the experience as a training aid; now when I train, I try
to visualise the taught technique in a real world situation. Its very easy
to abstract Karate away from the real world unless you make an effort to
link the training with the actual.
Now I *know* why my instructor exhorts me to be faster, stronger, more
spirited.
Paul
--
Is Not Is Not Not Is
R
In article <33529F...@SYMPATICO.CA>, Chris Wade <cw...@SYMPATICO.CA> writes:
(snip of other stuff)
>It's interesting that you say there wasn't room to kick or punch, and
>yet you indicate that you were "pummelled mercilessly". Obviously your
>opponent didn't have the same problem striking that you did. Also, what
I found that odd as well. How can there not be room to kick straight in front
of you(him). Unless the porch was filled with junk and he was in it all.
learned that kata, but it fits so well in that situation(the kiba dachi)....
not saying that he should have gotten in kiba dachi stance, but..you get it
huh?
(more snip)
>Chris
just a few thoughts
--chris
mark a goetsch
$ I totally agree, but unfortunately this is hardly practiced in the
$ majority of schools (remembering, with relevence to the "Anti-Rape"
$ thread, a Women's self-defence course at my school which had them doing
$ kata, etc)
Caught me on a gooood day! I just finished teaching two hours of all the
things wrong with an anti-rape course.
The 6-week deal gives the defender enough techniques to seriously piss off
a would-be attacker but not enough that at crunch time are of any use.
The attack the padded man is good for aggression and female bonding, but
when the man has no pads is 6'4" and 190+, he easily subdues the woman who
was trained this way.
The only thing that I teach (outside of a couple of nasty points to hit and
are not difficult to aim) is that the persons mind must be stronger than
the attackers. That she (the defender) must use cunning and be able to
take a good slap or the fight is over. I have seen these seminars where a
couple of Woman Instructors say "if he does that then I do that". I know
just from the way they move that I could get to them before they were able
to even grab my wrist or do one of those fancy techniques.
Woman can be very effective in Self Defense but they have to use their
special skill. Their ability to attract a man, their ability to move back
and force, their ability to surprise someone. Relying on tricks that are
learned in a couple of hours will only get one killed!!!!!
Mark
mark a goetsch
$ The main thing is making the training as useful as possible for real
$ situations, not in-house sparring or fantasy events.
Don, I really don't understand this point. You are talking to experienced
people here, not a bunch of Martial Arts Newbies. Useful to me in making
training as useful as possible is the ability to train with a barstool. It
stops fights much quicker than Karate. Just take the barstool up and smash,
end of fight. In-house sparring teaches distance and timing, something that
many of these *real situation* fighters lack.
Mark
mark a goetsch
$$ It's interesting that you say there wasn't room to kick or punch, and
$$ yet you indicate that you were "pummelled mercilessly". Obviously your
$$ opponent didn't have the same problem striking that you did. Also, what
$ I found that odd as well. How can there not be room to kick straight in
front
$ of you(him). Unless the porch was filled with junk and he was in it all.
$ A kata that came to mind was Tekki Shodan. At 1 year practice I doubt he
$ learned that kata, but it fits so well in that situation(the kiba
dachi)....
$ not saying that he should have gotten in kiba dachi stance, but..you get
it
$ huh?
At least this post has content. From what I can tell this person allowed
himself to be in an awkward situation, it is doubtful that at this point
much could have been done.
Mark
mark a goetsch
$$ Uh-Ohh, I didn't realize that we were in the presence of the one /true/
$$ Karate Fighter. So is there a litmus test? Can one take a piss test to
$$ tell if one really is a /fighter/ ?
Any martial artist that is mature enough can pretty much tell a fighter
when he sees them. It's in the way you look and the confidence and attitude
with which one holds themselves.
$ Sounds to me simply that he can't teach effectively.
Based on what ????? You come into our house with a 2nd degree Kung Fu Sash
(An American Money Maker scheme if I ever heard of one, in Traditional
Chinese Arst their are usually only three levels and they are not called
degrees), as an 18 yr. old with almost no experience as an adult much less
as a Teacher and criticize them.
$ It is scary that he teaches martial arts.. But when I look around, I see
a
$ lot of people that take people's money and waste their time or teach in
an
$ inexcusably unsafe environment.
While many people are indeed like that. I don't think that this applies
here. But even if it did you made a snap judgment with no content to back
it up based on a single post. This post I will cross-post since this is
getting ridicules.
If someone wants to cross-post into AMAKS then they should have the decency
to stay there long enough to find out what is going on!!!!! And publish
some content so that you will get respect, not garbage "I don't think that
this is a good person" or "This isn't a good Instructor". Take the time to
say the Why, When, Where and Who.
Mark Goetsch
mark a goetsch
$ I agree with this - if a martial art cannot help you after a
$ year of study, it's time to get a new art or a new teacher.
$ I'm tired of hearing how it takes XXX # of years to get good
$ at this martial art - like aikido, if it takes 10 years to learn,
$ maybe the training methods should be improved...
Who are these goofs. Seriously, I usually don't put down a person but these
people are really out of touch. Want a one year self-defense course :
Buy a gun.
Join some secret anti-terrorist force.
Join the Mafia.
Wear Steel armor.
Wear Kevlar and carry around two rolls of pennies (if you don't know what
the pennies are for you have never been in a serious fight).
Talk to Crocodile Dundee about a Knife purchase.
Buy a Tank.
And the list goes on......................
Mark
Curt Coman
dawa...@ix.netcom.com (Don Wagner) wrote:
[snipped thread]
>The goal of studing any specific art is what matters. I don't train
>and study to "kick ass and take names" but my training is highly
>geared towards this. I'm comfortable learning from others who don't
>train this way as well.
Don:
I'll jump in with my $0.02 and just add that I train for all of the
above reasons. I train for health and fitness. I train because I
want some balance and discipline and self-respect in my life. I train
because it's fun. And I train because, if and when it ever comes down
to it, I DO want to be able to kick some butts and take some names;
if anyone ever threatens me or my loved ones, I want to be able to
take him apart and send him the clear message that I am NOT to be
messed with. These are my goals.
I have to admit that Rob Redmond's earlier post at the top of this
thread made me sit up and take notice. Hey, maybe *I'm* one of those
half-hearted pansies he's talking about. But I'm going to try my best
not to be.
>If health and fitness are the goals then who cares how long it takes
>to "become good"? ;-)
>--Don--
Good point...as I have to keep reminding myself, this is not a race to
the black belt.
>If we're not supposed to eat animals
>why are they made out of meat?
Hmmmm...I'm gonna have to give that one some thought.... ;-)
Curt
======================================
Curt Coman
Rick Drew Martial Arts America, Atlanta, GA
ma...@mindspring.com
"I fear not the thousand kicks you practiced once,
but rather the one kick you practiced a thousand times."
======================================
Taro Sumitomo
While aikido was a bad example since it's not really a 'fighting' art in
the way GJJ or boxing are,
I think the lad does have a point to some extent. If you live in a rough
area, for example, and want to learn to fight, ten years is way too long.
How many times have we heard someone comment that they learnt more in 3
months of BJJ, for example, than 3 years of ***?
Anyway, there are MAs which directly, or indirectly
promote themselves as teaching effective self-defense, when in fact, they
don't.
ts
Eric Saul Rosenthal (rose...@cs.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
: I agree with this - if a martial art cannot help you after a
: year of study, it's time to get a new art or a new teacher.
: I'm tired of hearing how it takes XXX # of years to get good
: at this martial art - like aikido, if it takes 10 years to learn,
: maybe the training methods should be improved...
:
: Eric Rosenthal
jiin
dawa...@ix.netcom.com (Don Wagner) wrote while dreaming of greatness:
}It's not hard to see at all...
}The poor slob was rushed, hit, went into a defensive position (covered
}up) and got creamed. He had probably lost after the first serious
}hit.
Why was he rushed? Again what did he do to provoke such a violent attack on a
porch no less where there was probably a party going on? He lost his heart and
will to fight after the first serious punch probably.
}The last think anyone should be doing is thinking "Ahhh, kata/form XYZ
}will save me!" ;-)
}It just doesn't work that way in reality.
Gotta agree here.
jiin
Roshan Mamarvar
Taro Sumitomo wrote:
> How many times have we heard someone comment that they learnt more in 3
> months of BJJ, for example, than 3 years of ***?
>
That's somehow ridiculous.
Don't you think it's absolutely normal when changing with a
3-year experience of XY-Ryu to YZ-Ryu, you learn more in the first
months than you did in your first MA ?
Daniel M. Arner
daear...@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>IMHO you gave some good advice. Shotokan is effective when taught by a competant instructor.
kind of like spellcheck :-)
dan
Richard Lancashire
Don Wagner wrote:
> The last think anyone should be doing is thinking "Ahhh, kata/form XYZ
> will save me!" ;-)
> It just doesn't work that way in reality.
I agree with your statement, Don, but possibly not how you mean it...
The last thing anyone should do in a fight is think what to do next -
katas/forms are useful in that they program moves into your mind which
can then be adapted to the situation. If they've been taught well, they
should also have given you a sense of, erm, "spirit" (ie feeling over
logic) that allows you to act rather than poner what comes next.
Or maybe that is what you meant, I don't know.
:oP
Rich
Erik Harris
In article <01bc49df$b41d8760$8280fdcd@default>, "mark a goetsch" <no...@cyberconnect.com> wrote:
> Sounds to me simply that he can't teach effectively.
>Based on what ?????
Based on the fact that he (says he) has no effective fighters.
>You come into our house with a 2nd degree Kung Fu Sash (An American Money
>Maker scheme if I ever heard of one, in Traditional Chinese Arst their are
Believe what you will about my school. My tuition has gone only towards
renting the building, and my "test fees" were the cost of the sashes
themselves ($5). Those that teach there do not get paid (in fact they
continue to pay tuition), and all have full time jobs elsewhere to support
themselves. In the rare event that we get more money that is needed for rent
and occasional equipment, it's put in a bank account for when we come up
short.
American money making scheme, eh? And you say I'M quick to judge?
>While many people are indeed like that. I don't think that this applies
>here. But even if it did you made a snap judgment with no content to back
>it up based on a single post.
Actually, it's based on Rob's MANY recent postings. He carries himself very
poorly. He's at least as offensive as New Sage, and not as entertaining.
>If someone wants to cross-post into AMAKS then they should have the decency
>to stay there long enough to find out what is going on!!!!!
I've been reading his messages in RMA, not AMAKS; I didn't even know there was
an AMAKS until you pointed out that his messages are being crossposted either
from or to there. He's been posting quite enough here in RMA for me to make
an educated guess on what he is like.
>And publish some content so that you will get respect, not garbage "I don't
>think that this is a good person" or "This isn't a good Instructor".
I have been, though I doubt most of my posts are getting crossposted to AMAKS,
since this is the only Shotokan-related thread I'm reading (though I posted
some more useful messages in this thread before Rob turned it into a "I'm
tough, 99% of you are geeky wimps" flame war).
SHARK®
Chris Wade <cw...@SYMPATICO.CA> scribbled with their Crayola:
>Douglas Mark Trueman wrote:
>> --Shun-goku-satsu doogie--
>> Check out my home page: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~dmtruema/
>You're right, Doug, you are probably going to get a lot of e-mail about
>this one.
Just for the record. The Doug he's talking to
isn't me.
:)
Carcharodon Carcharias
"Ronin"
SHARK®
dawa...@ix.netcom.com (Don Wagner) scribbled with their Crayola:
>A little off topic...
>We held a 6 week course at a local industrial park for womens self
>defnese, not anti-rape per say but thats what was in the minds of
>quite a few of the people who signed up.
>The class was held in a large conference room in one of the buildings.
>Everyone filed in, left their coats, briefcases and pocketbooks along
>the back wall and on tables toward the rear of the room. One of my
>instructors started the class and 5 min in stopped and asked this
>question. "Why didn't anyone stop the man who came in from taking
>your belongings?" One of our people, dressed in street clothes,
>walked in during the intro and picked up a few coats and bags and
>walked out. Not one of the 2 dozen people noticed.
>Awareness counts. ;-)
So does repetitive practice. If you don't continue practicing the
skills they become lost.
Carcharodon Carcharias
"Ronin"
Don Wagner
Richard Lancashire <r.b.lan...@ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
>Don Wagner wrote:
>> The last thing anyone should be doing is thinking "Ahhh, kata/form XYZ
>:oP
>Rich
Thats pretty much it Rich. I wasn't too clear on that in my post.
Kata/forms contain elements that can be applied in a fight. It won't
be a long sequence of events, but there are times where it will occur.
The way the kata/form was learned and trained in will determine its
worth.
--Don--
Don Wagner
Roshan Mamarvar <mama...@rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:
>Taro Sumitomo wrote:
>> How many times have we heard someone comment that they learnt more in 3
>> months of BJJ, for example, than 3 years of ***?
>>
>That's somehow ridiculous.
>Don't you think it's absolutely normal when changing with a
>3-year experience of XY-Ryu to YZ-Ryu, you learn more in the first
>months than you did in your first MA ?
> Roshan
It's more then that really...
3 years in a store front commercial school could very well equal a
black belt with no realistic training or even hard physical workouts.
Now this same person joins a school where they're on the mat
immediately, being shown practical applications to much more
realistic situations.
This doesn't have to be a groundfighting style either, just a more
serious, realistic method of training.
jiin
"mark a goetsch" <no...@cyberconnect.com> wrote while dreaming of greatness:
I snipped the post 'cause everyone can go back and read it if they wish. Nice
reply for the most part Mark. Bottom line is the guy is an undertrained and
probably largemouthed idiot. I bet he showed up for a couple of classes when it
didn't cause lost party time.
How do you provoke a group of people to trash you this bad anyway? Not one but a
whole group!
The mouth runeth over is my guess.
jiin
Don Wagner
sh...@wwdc.com (SHARKŽ) wrote:
> So does repetitive practice. If you don't continue practicing the
>skills they become lost.
>Carcharodon Carcharias
Yup. Maybe change "repetitive" to "constant" though. Vary what you
do and how you do it, change of scenery is nice too.
Steve Havelka
Rob Redmond (big...@mindspring.com) wrote:
: [ x-posted on purpose ]
: On Wed, 16 Apr 97 13:03:10 GMT, esh7@c_rnell.edu (Erik Harris) wrote:
: >In article <01bc49df$b41d8760$8280fdcd@default>, "mark a goetsch" <no...@cyberconnect.com> wrote:
: >> Sounds to me simply that he can't teach effectively.
: >>Based on what ?????
: >Based on the fact that he (says he) has no effective fighters.
: I did not say that. I said that in every martial arts school in the
: world, there are only two effective fighters in the lot. The
: instructor, and perhaps one student, not necessarily the highest
: ranking student. I pointed out that 90% of any karate club is
: composed of people who will never be fighters, mostly because they are
: genetically incapable of being made into fighters.
What kind of moronic shit is that - genetic incapability to fight?
Martial arts are about _overcoming_ your limitations, and if you make the
claim any anyone, or 90% of the people, dedicated to improving their
martial arts (and themselves), then you've got an unhealthy attitude
towards the arts, and I feel sorry for your students.
--
-smh
Angie
> [ x-posted on purpose ]
>
> On Wed, 16 Apr 97 13:03:10 GMT, esh7@c_rnell.edu (Erik Harris) wrote:
>
> >In article <01bc49df$b41d8760$8280fdcd@default>, "mark a goetsch"
<no...@cyberconnect.com> wrote:
> >> Sounds to me simply that he can't teach effectively.
> >>Based on what ?????
>
> >Based on the fact that he (says he) has no effective fighters.
That's right. You say your school has two effictive fighters--you as the
teacher, and only one capable student.
> I did not say that. I said that in every martial arts school in the
> world, there are only two effective fighters in the lot. The
> instructor, and perhaps one student, not necessarily the highest
> ranking student. I pointed out that 90% of any karate club is
> composed of people who will never be fighters, mostly because they are
> genetically incapable of being made into fighters.
>
> >I've been reading his messages in RMA, not AMAKS; I didn't even know
there was
> >an AMAKS until you pointed out that his messages are being crossposted
either
> >from or to there. He's been posting quite enough here in RMA for me to make
> >an educated guess on what he is like.
>
> *If* you were paying closer attention to what you had read, yes, you
> could.
>
> I made no claims that I am a good fighter. I did not claim that none
> of my students can fight. I did not claim that everyone who does MA
> is a geek. I said that:
>
> * 90% of the people in any MA school are geeks and will never learn to
> fight
>
> * Usually someone who is a fighter can walk into any MA school and
> clean out everyone but the instructor and that one student who can
> fight
>
> * This just seems to me the proportions that are typical in *any*
> karate club. The instructor is dangerous, one student is dangerous,
> the rest are fluff.
>
> Is that offensive to you? Why? Did I hit a personal nerve?
OK Rob, I'll jump in here.
Yes, I consider your comments incredibly offensive. Maybe it is because
you hit a nerve, but I doubt it. In highshchool I definitely was not part
of the "in crowd". That however did not make me a nerd, or a geek. In
college, I did hang with the big boys, and the only people that reffered
to me as a nerd would be close friends who were joking around about the
fact that I am fairly intelligent. Now I'm in grad school and I don't
really have time to care what people think, but I seriosly doubt I'd be
termed a nerd or a geek by most people's standards.
This is all beside the point though. What is offensive is that you seem
to consider anyone who can not fight a nerd or a geek. You say that only
one student is "dangerous" and the rest are just "fluff." Granted, not
everyone is up to competition standards, but a lot of people don't really
care. The impression that you give, whether you intend to or not, is that
it is only that one "dangerous" person who is worthy of your teaching.
> In your quick-tempered responses, you never took the time to think of
> *why* the above might be true. Think about it. Most people who go to
> martial arts schools don't go to learn how to fight. I've surveyed my
> students both here and in Japan to find out why they train.
>
> Only around 10% ever answer "to fight." The others answer things like
> exercise, sport, meet people, self-discipline, etc. Some include
> "self-defense," but by their very nature, people who are fascinated
> with "self-defense" are generally unable to do so when they begin. I
> give them a 10% chance of *ever* becoming able to do so. Generally
> they are, yes, weak little nerds.
Well, I didn't start MA to learn to fight, or for self defense, or for any
reason that I can put my finger on. It doesn't mean that I can't and
never will be able to defend myself should the need arise. Why do you act
as if your students are worthless if they aren't capable of breaking
someguys jaw with one hit (more or less, huh)?
> I also think that the average height of martial artists is lower than
> the average height of the typical national population.
So now being short means that you are incapable of fighting or somehow
pre-disposes you to being a nerd? Excuse me, but isn't Schwartzenegger
(sorry about the spelling, Arnie) under the average hight for a man?
Gonna go up to him and tell him he's a nerd or that god forbid he's in
deep doodoo should anyone attack him?
>
> I apologize if somehow you were offended by the fact that my articles
> do not support the MA philosophy of "support our mutual activities."
> I think that there is much to be questioned in what we do, and I also
> think that most of what is communicated about martial arts practice is
> general unsupported wive's tales and made-up mythology.
>
> Somehow I am able to enjoy teaching Shotokan Karate in spite of the
> fact that I have an open mind toward what we may be wrong about.
>
> Rob
You know Rob, it wouldn't suprise me if the trend of only one fighter in
your school continues. It wouldn't suprise me to find that that one
person is the person that you spend the most time with, put forth the most
effort on, and in essence train better than everyone else. It would seem
to me that your job as an instructor would be to (dare I use the term?)
nurture the students that seem less able at the beginning, help them to
become a good martial artist? Ever heard of "self-fulfilling prophecy?"
Since it seems from your posts that you haven't I will explain. It is the
priciple that you will become whoat you believe you can become. If your
students get the impression from you that they are never going to get good
at karate, they probably won't. There will be those few who get good
simply because you told them or made them think that they won't, but it
won't change the fact that your attitude is doing nothing more than
propogating the one-fighter-only trend.
On the brighter side, though, the condescending way that you describe the
vast majority of your students (90% are geeks and will always be geeks)
makes me incredibly glad that I have had the supportive instructors that I
have and have had in the past. If I had begun studying MA under your
instruction, I'm quite sure that I would have quit by now, with nothing to
show for my experience other than a sence of worthlessness and the belief
that no matter how hard I train, not matter what I do, I'm doomed should I
ever be attacked. Not exactly the message that most people should be
getting, wouldn't you agree?
Apology to readers in AMAKS. I'm sure that I've broken a couple of rules
from your FAQ, but since this is being posted to RMA as well, I decided to
take the easy way out. =)
Angie
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Insanity runs in my family. It practically gallops.
--From "Arsenic and Old Lace"
Solomon Paul Sammy
In article <5j1kn2$h...@camel2.mindspring.com>, ji...@atl.mindspring.com
(jiin) wrote:
> How do you provoke a group of people to trash you this bad anyway? Not one
> but a
> whole group!
I can think of a few.
Maybe the gang were druggies looking for trouble, or on some sort of
chemical with an aggressive side-effect.
Perhaps the victim was not of the "correct" ethnic minority. I myself have
been attacked by several people- I suspect the first, but since I am of
mixed race, perhaps the latter also applied.
Erik Harris
In article <3358ec9b...@news.mindspring.com>, big...@mindspring.com wrote:
>>Based on the fact that he (says he) has no effective fighters.
>I did not say that. I said that in every martial arts school in the
I accidentally left out "almost." I apologize for the confusion.
>ranking student. I pointed out that 90% of any karate club is
>composed of people who will never be fighters, mostly because they are
>genetically incapable of being made into fighters.
I suppose that depends on how you define "fighter." Much more than 10% of the
people at my school could defend themselves quite effectively against an
attacker with even moderate experience (I refuse to say that anyone can defend
himself against ANY attacker. That would be stupid)... But I doubt that even
10% would get in a ring and beat people up for cash, and I'd bet that none of
them would go around picking fights with people just to build up their egos.
>* Usually someone who is a fighter can walk into any MA school and
>clean out everyone but the instructor and that one student who can
>fight
That's a rather odd qualification. In order to be a "fighter", you have to be
better than everyone except TWO people in EVERY martial arts school in the
world? That's QUITE a tall order.. If that's your definition, I'd dout that
there are more than a handful of fighters in the world.
>I apologize if somehow you were offended by the fact that my articles
>do not support the MA philosophy of "support our mutual activities."
No, I'm more offended by the implicit "if you aren't readily capable of
and don't like to go around beating people up, you're not a MA'ist, and you're
a wimpy little geek" attitude. I thought (err, hoped) that such attitudes
only existed in the "bad guy dojos" of bad martial arts movies. Oh, and the
"tradition is stupid and counterproductive" attitude seems a bit ridiculous,
though not personally offensive.
Whether or not those are the attitudes that you intend to portray or not, it's
what I see in your messages.
>Somehow I am able to enjoy teaching Shotokan Karate in spite of the
>fact that I have an open mind toward what we may be wrong about.
That's good. It would be pretty pointless to do it if you didn't enjoy it.
R
(snip of all the stuff from Rob and Angie.)
Regarding the comment about most martial artsist being shorter than the
national average, so what?! I wonder what you, Rob, said to the people
in Japan who were short..which is a majority of the population.
Did not they help develop the martial arts? With that in mind,
why did you study shotokan and go to japan to study or teach
from a bunch of short people??
--chris
Nico Hailey
On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Bitchy Butch wrote:
> In article <5iuatd$43$2...@mark.ucdavis.edu>, rose...@cs.ucdavis.edu (Eric
> Saul Rosenthal) wrote:
> > I agree with this - if a martial art cannot help you after a
> > year of study, it's time to get a new art or a new teacher.
> > I'm tired of hearing how it takes XXX # of years to get good
> > at this martial art - like aikido, if it takes 10 years to learn,
> > maybe the training methods should be improved...
>
> And while we're at it: I wanna become a virtuoso violinist In Just THREE
> HOURS!!! Not to mention a master gardener by only reading seed catalogs,
> and in fact I feel as long as I've got off my ass for long enough to come
> on down to the registrar's and enroll:They OUGHT to GIVE ME THE PHD THEN
> AND THERE! </sarcasm>
I don't think that the orrig. poster wanted to be a grandmaster, just
proficent enough to fight back. To continue your analogy, I think it is
possible to learn how to grow a plant from seed and harvest its' fruit
from reading a seed catalog or even the blurb on the back of the package.
> In my experience it takes someone getting instruction in Shotokan Karate 2
> - 3 times a week and working out on their own for an hour or so each day
> about 18 months before their proficiency. In fact I find that beginners
> are often at a distinct disadvantage because they are breaking down their
> old reflexes and have not replaced them entirely. The result is someone
> who is hesitant, doesn't 'flow,' who "thinks too much," is slow, and whose
> techniques are in poor form.
Well, I have found that begginers are sometimes at an advantage because
they are unpredictable to one who has been conditioned to fighting.
Granted that begginers who are klutzy, or unconfident may put themselves
more at risk, but I don't think sweeping condemnations have merrit
against any group, including the much belegured begginner.
> Karate helpful... from experience (mostly because MAist seem to be able to
> void conflicts, but also from actual application of waza while defending
^^^^^^^^^^^^ wow that's a neat skill! have you considered a carreer in
Middle East peace negotiation?
Nico
Roshan Mamarvar
Don Wagner wrote:
>
> Thats pretty much it Rich. I wasn't too clear on that in my post.
>
> Kata/forms contain elements that can be applied in a fight. It won't
> be a long sequence of events, but there are times where it will occur.
>
> The way the kata/form was learned and trained in will determine its
> worth.
Yep, but you (to the initiator of this topic) surely won't learn that
in one year !
Quark
In article <lgd450-1604...@mac136.cnadc.nwu.edu>, lgd...@nwu.edu
says...
>In article <3358ec9b...@news.mindspring.com>, big...@mindspring.com
wrote [snipped for brevity]:
>> I apologize if somehow you were offended by the fact that my articles
>> do not support the MA philosophy of "support our mutual activities."
>> I think that there is much to be questioned in what we do, and I also
>> think that most of what is communicated about martial arts practice is
>> general unsupported wive's tales and made-up mythology.
>> Somehow I am able to enjoy teaching Shotokan Karate in spite of the
>> fact that I have an open mind toward what we may be wrong about.
Angie:
>You know Rob, it wouldn't suprise me if the trend of only one fighter in
>your school continues. It wouldn't suprise me to find that that one
>person is the person that you spend the most time with, put forth the most
>effort on, and in essence train better than everyone else.
Well, unfortunately, this is pretty much window-dressing. The point has been
made, and I agree, that if we're talking about what constitutes a
born fighter, personality is a big initial determining factor. There's only a
few in any group that really enjoy mixing it up; the others are there for
much less "aggressive" reasons. Like it or not, the former maintain an edge
over those that don't. It's like having an extra ten bucks in your wallet.
We're not talking how much attention somebody gets; we're talking about
an innate enjoyment for fighting. These guys make good linebackers, too :-).
>On the brighter side, though, the condescending way that you describe the
>vast majority of your students (90% are geeks and will always be geeks)
>makes me incredibly glad that I have had the supportive instructors that I
>have and have had in the past.
Rob's pretty direct, ain't he :-).
I'm horrified when these discussions go against my sensitive, nurturing,
90s-kinda-guy-in touch-with-my feminine-side too, but somebody's gotta tell
the truth. We ARE talking fighting here; what's erroneous with what he wrote?
You're talking about studying martial arts for other reasons. It's
philosophy, character development, religion, hero worship, cultism, whatever.
These may be reasons in themselves, but unfortunately do little to
develop fighting aptitude.
>If I had begun studying MA under your
>instruction, I'm quite sure that I would have quit by now, with nothing to
>show for my experience other than a sence of worthlessness and the belief
>that no matter how hard I train, not matter what I do, I'm doomed should I
>ever be attacked. Not exactly the message that most people should be
>getting, wouldn't you agree?
I'm not sure this is what we should extract out of this.
The message isn't "don't try"; it's "don't think you have the same
combat advantages as somebody who loves to mix it up, because you don't".
Aren't we reading a lot into Rob's comments?
Q.
mark a goetsch
$ What kind of moronic shit is that - genetic incapability to fight?
$ Martial arts are about _overcoming_ your limitations, and if you make the
$ claim any anyone, or 90% of the people, dedicated to improving their
$ martial arts (and themselves), then you've got an unhealthy attitude
$ towards the arts, and I feel sorry for your students.
1st Martial Arts is *not* "about_overcoming_your limitations", that can be
a side benefit but that is not the purpose.
Martial Arts is IMHO adding the mental and spiritual parts to fighting.
These elements were added at different times for different reasons but
there is a common thread that runs throughout the history of Martial Arts.
Boxing, for example, is a sport. While their may be spiritual boxers and
some that even found spirituality through boxing, it is a side effect not
the purpose. Not so with Martial Arts. Yoga masters started the ball
rolling with the founding of the Shaolin Temple where fighting routines
were added to spiritual routines to keep the monks healthy and safe. In
Japan the Samurai added Zen to their Martial Arts so that the Samurai could
face death without fear. Is kickboxing a Martial Art for example ??? Does
it have emphasis on combining the mental and spiritual discipline needed to
qualify ???
What Rob said about number of fighters being limited in a school tends to
be true. It is not an absolute. Where I train there are a great number of
very good fighters, but on average this is probably true. The reason isn't
Martial Arts or Teaching but is found in Social Dynamics. In most clubs of
any sort their is a hierarchical relationship built upon who is best. This
relationship does not reinforce the need for those not on the top to strive
for that position. Why do something if I am not number 1 and can't become
number 1. This occurs in clubs where the primary part of training involves
this type of competitive atmosphere. Martial Arts on the other hand also
has the mental and spiritual elements that also allow one to have personal
growth as well. This personal growth should still be challenged with the
rigors of free-sparring for example, so that the growth becomes more
complete. Just to do Kata or meditate does not push the mental part into a
real world perspective and this limits the amount of growth possible (btw
the Yogi's were the ones that taught this originally). You have to
experience the rigors of real life and take your philosophy and mental
training into that environment or you are only doing mental masturbation,
or practicing the "Do" of a star cult and not the "Do" of Martial Arts.
On the practice of fighting. Martial Arts is fighting, it is in the words,
terminology and purpose. To walk away from that means that as Rob says the
students will become fluff. Not any less human or worthy, but not aspiring
to the principles that the Martial Arts were founded for. It doesn't mean
they are not worthy of learning but that they are *not learning*. A good
teacher should have a higher percentage of people that can last in a
self-defense situation. Not like a prize-fighter but to be able to face a
potentially lethal situation without succumbing to fear. This is a goal
that I think is universal in most people and one that the Martial Arts is
well suited for.
Why do most people come to Martial Arts??? To build confidence. Good
fighters and big people generally don't go into Martial Arts since they are
usually more involved with boxing or wrestling where they are more into the
mainstream and can use their natural physical skill to competitive
advantage. Learning body dynamics and how to use your body most effectively
takes time and is something that these people will not put the time into
unless they enter a professional level. This is the reason that their are a
number of football players that are now trying out the martial arts. Before
they were the top dogs and didn't need Martial Arts. But in the kennel with
the rest of the Top Dogs Martial Arts becomes something practical.
Does this mean that Martial Artists are Geeks. I think that many start out
that way. Maybe even 90%. It takes a Geek thought to walk out of the
mainstream and try a physical activity that others might not consider
acceptable. Do they stay Geeks should be the question ?? In most cases they
don't. They develop farther than being Geeks. It also has one other side
effect. The average Martial Artist has a higher intellect and educational
background than almost any other activity. Their are exceptions to the
above.
Most of the people in the Dojo in Chicago are big and can fight even
without Martial Arts training. Mainly because the environment is one where
fear wasn't allowed to impact training in the Dojo. If you were afraid of
someone, you would end up facing them until you either grew out of the fear
or quit. But the environment was different then than it is now.
As teachers we have a responsibility to build the students to have more
confidence in themselves and in that method not all students move at the
same rate. For me to have a student face their worst nightmares in the
first part of training means that I lose that student forever. For me to
bring that student to that point gradually means that I have a better
student.
Mark Goetsch
mark a goetsch
$ How do you provoke a group of people to trash you this bad anyway? Not
one but a
$ whole group!
I have a student (a high school student) that was in his car and stopped at
an intersection. There were about 10 'bangers on the streetcorner, one said
something to this student. He replied "What?" the 'banger took this as an
insult and came over punching through the open window and barely catching
the student just above the eye. Luckily it was a poor punch. He then drove
off, as the rest started coming. He lost one of the windows of the car but
he escaped. He asked me what I would've done and I said probably the same
thing. He felt a little bad but I told him that no matter how good he is as
a fighter with those odds and in that position there is no way to survive.
Even a gun wouldn't have worked since they would have only shot back. He
was smart for getting out of there and living to fight another day.
Mark
SHARK®
dawa...@ix.netcom.com (Don Wagner) scribbled with their Crayola:
>sh...@wwdc.com (SHARKŽ) wrote:
Gotcha.
Carcharodon Carcharias
"Ronin"
Kathleen Bauer
In <myrtle-1504...@softdist4.berkeley.edu>
myr...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Bitchy Butch) writes:
>
>
>In article <5iuatd$43$2...@mark.ucdavis.edu>, rose...@cs.ucdavis.edu
(Eric
>Saul Rosenthal) wrote:
>
>> I agree with this - if a martial art cannot help you after a
>> year of study, it's time to get a new art or a new teacher.
>> I'm tired of hearing how it takes XXX # of years to get good
>> at this martial art - like aikido, if it takes 10 years to learn,
>> maybe the training methods should be improved...
>
>And while we're at it: I wanna become a virtuoso violinist In Just
THREE
>HOURS!!! Not to mention a master gardener by only reading seed
catalogs,
>and in fact I feel as long as I've got off my ass for long enough to
come
>on down to the registrar's and enroll:They OUGHT to GIVE ME THE PHD
THEN
>AND THERE! </sarcasm>
>
time
>to obtain proficiency. Not only do you have to build up a language or
>system of physical and mental fighting techniques as _reflexes_, but
you
>have to UNLEARN your original self-defense instincts/reflexes - many
of
>which run counter to solid MA basics.
>
>In my experience it takes someone getting instruction in Shotokan
Karate 2
>- 3 times a week and working out on their own for an hour or so each
day
>about 18 months before their proficiency. In fact I find that
beginners
>are often at a distinct disadvantage because they are breaking down
their
>old reflexes and have not replaced them entirely. The result is
someone
>who is hesitant, doesn't 'flow,' who "thinks too much," is slow, and
whose
>techniques are in poor form.
>
fight.
>
>However... once the initial hump on the learning curve is overcome, I
find
>Karate helpful... from experience (mostly because MAist seem to be
able to
>void conflicts, but also from actual application of waza while
defending
>
>As to the individual who got beat up: I am sorry, and hope that you
heal
>well. I hope also that you find yourself in less violence in the
future
>(whether or not you study _any_ MA).
>
>Regards,
>Alexis
>
>PS I think this is a problem with short term "self defense" courses
which
>concentrate on physical training; no good unless the students spend
>thousands of hours practising these things. I feel the psychological
and
>strategic training can be absorbed effectively in the short term
though...
I whole heartedly agree. Self defense classes may give a person a
false sense of security which may put them is a situation that s/he
would not normally do. A course on awareness of your surroundings might
be a better way to go.
ED B.
SEAN A. HATTON
On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Rob Redmond wrote:
> [ x-posted on purpose ]
>
> On Wed, 16 Apr 97 13:03:10 GMT, esh7@c_rnell.edu (Erik Harris) wrote:
>
> >In article <01bc49df$b41d8760$8280fdcd@default>, "mark a goetsch" <no...@cyberconnect.com> wrote:
> >> Sounds to me simply that he can't teach effectively.
> >>Based on what ?????
>
> >Based on the fact that he (says he) has no effective fighters.
>
> I did not say that. I said that in every martial arts school in the
> world, there are only two effective fighters in the lot. The
> instructor, and perhaps one student, not necessarily the highest
> ranking student. I pointed out that 90% of any karate club is
> composed of people who will never be fighters, mostly because they are
> genetically incapable of being made into fighters.
I see, so you've been to every martial arts school in the world? I don't
recall a Big Rob ever turning up to mine....
In my first wing chun academy, the class was small, but with few
exceptions everyone from Level 3 up could fight. That's not my judgement
either, it came from the head instructors who spent his best years
working in bars in the more unruly parts of towns.
Now lets wait for Big Rob to jump in with a "But how does winning dozens
of fights, often with weapons and/or multiple opponents prove that this
guy knows what he's talking about?"......
>
> >I've been reading his messages in RMA, not AMAKS; I didn't even know there was
> >an AMAKS until you pointed out that his messages are being crossposted either
> >from or to there. He's been posting quite enough here in RMA for me to make
> >an educated guess on what he is like.
>
> *If* you were paying closer attention to what you had read, yes, you
> could.
>
> I made no claims that I am a good fighter. I did not claim that none
> of my students can fight. I did not claim that everyone who does MA
> is a geek. I said that:
>
> * 90% of the people in any MA school are geeks and will never learn to
> fight
Maybe a more accurate depiction would be "90% of my students are geeks
and will remain so until they find a teacher who can make fighters out of
them".
>
> * Usually someone who is a fighter can walk into any MA school and
> clean out everyone but the instructor and that one student who can
> fight
I beg to differ, maybe in your school that's the case, but I'm reckoning
we can include the teacher among those who will get "cleaned out".
>
> * This just seems to me the proportions that are typical in *any*
> karate club. The instructor is dangerous, one student is dangerous,
> the rest are fluff.
In this age of the McDojo, this is indeed the case for a typical karate
club. That's why most of us don't waste our time with them. That's why I
sought school that could teach me to fight.
>
> Is that offensive to you? Why? Did I hit a personal nerve?
You wouldn't know a personal nerve if it bit you on your arse.
>
> In your quick-tempered responses, you never took the time to think of
> *why* the above might be true. Think about it. Most people who go to
> martial arts schools don't go to learn how to fight. I've surveyed my
> students both here and in Japan to find out why they train.
And what of those students who DO want to, or even need to, learn how to
fight? Do you say "Bad luck"?
>
> Only around 10% ever answer "to fight." The others answer things like
> exercise, sport, meet people, self-discipline, etc. Some include
> "self-defense," but by their very nature, people who are fascinated
> with "self-defense" are generally unable to do so when they begin. I
> give them a 10% chance of *ever* becoming able to do so. Generally
> they are, yes, weak little nerds.
Even the weakest little nerd can become a vicious and effective piece of
work with a teacher that knows how. The assistant instructor was one
once, and he still looks like one.... but none of the big guys willingly
spar him.
>
> I also think that the average height of martial artists is lower than
> the average height of the typical national population.
>
> I apologize if somehow you were offended by the fact that my articles
> do not support the MA philosophy of "support our mutual activities."
> I think that there is much to be questioned in what we do, and I also
> think that most of what is communicated about martial arts practice is
> general unsupported wive's tales and made-up mythology.
You must have read my mind each time I perused your posts
>
> Somehow I am able to enjoy teaching Shotokan Karate in spite of the
> fact that I have an open mind toward what we may be wrong about.
OPEN MIND???? Rob, go to a dictionary and look up what this means before
you start claiming to have one.
>
> Rob
>
Apologies to all the real martial artists I subjected to this juvenile
crap... he just brings out the best in me, what can I say?
>
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> Rob Redmond Atlanta Karate Club atlanta-k...@mindspring.com
> Shotokan Karate FAQ http://www.mindspring.com/~bigred/faq.html
> Dojo Directory http://www.mindspring.com/~bigred/dojodir.html
>
>
HAVE A NICE DAY!!!
Erik Harris
In article <3355374...@nntp3.mindspring.com>, big...@mindspring.com wrote:
>On Wed, 16 Apr 97 19:37:00 GMT, esh7@c_rnell.edu (Erik Harris) wrote:
>>That's a rather odd qualification. In order to be a "fighter", you have to be
>>better than everyone except TWO people in EVERY martial arts school in the
>>world? That's QUITE a tall order.. If that's your definition, I'd dout that
>>there are more than a handful of fighters in the world.
>My, my. You have a dazzling ability to reverse a statement in order to prove
>it invalid. I did not set this forth as a qualification to be a fighter.
Well, you set it forth as an attribute of a fighter.. Nearly the same thing.
>To go further, I think a fighter is someone that could and would actually be
>quite dangerous for someone to go picking on.
That doesn't go further.. That doesn't go AS far. This I would agree with.
But the claim that a 'real fighter' can clean out all but two people in every
MA school is ridiculous.
>You also forgot to include my assumption that people who can already fight
>don't take up martial arts.
No I didn't. I was simply going on your definition of a "fighter". One
needn't be a martial artist to be able to walk into a MA school and try to
beat people up.
>I never defined a martial artist as someone who should like to beat people up,
>nor did I decry them for not being such as you suggest.
You defined a fighter as such, and claimed that while most MA'ists can't reach
that goal, they should strive for it.
>My statement was perfectly clear:
So was mine. Simply that I consider you to be wrong.
>Where you keep getting these wild, extremist interpretations and extrapolations
>is beyond me.
Directly from the text of your message.
>You seem to be taking offense because perhaps you are:
>* smallish, non-athletic
I'm not the size of a football player. I don't care to be, either. I
honestly don't care that you know that I'm smallish (5'8"). There are only a
few sports that I really enjoy, but I don't consider myself non-athletic for
not being a jack-of-all-trades.
>* Not the best fighter in your club
That is certainly not offensive, either, since 4 or 5 of the people there have
been tehre longer than I have, and a few of those who haven't been there as
long as I have are amazing in their natural ability to absorb and apply what
we teach them. I've never claimed to be the best fighter at my school. To do
so would be quite ridiculous, especially as I'm being taught by someone with
about a decade more experience than I have.
>...and therefore somehow taking personal insult that I am saying, "If I came
> to your school, your instructor and your top member who could fight would be a
>challenge, but you are a cream puff."
>Did I say that?
You did.. And it didn't surprise me one bit. You seem to like to toss around
insults.
jiin
Solomon Paul Sammy <s...@argonet.co.uk> wrote while dreaming of greatness:
}In article <5j1kn2$h...@camel2.mindspring.com>, ji...@atl.mindspring.com
}(jiin) wrote:
}> How do you provoke a group of people to trash you this bad anyway? Not one
}> but a
}> whole group!
}I can think of a few.
}Maybe the gang were druggies looking for trouble, or on some sort of
}chemical with an aggressive side-effect.
}Perhaps the victim was not of the "correct" ethnic minority. I myself have
}been attacked by several people- I suspect the first, but since I am of
}mixed race, perhaps the latter also applied.
In both cases you should not have been there. The first indication that you are
not welcome should have resulted in your first step towards the door. If you
were attacked you may not have provoked it but you definately knew the
atmosphere was conducive to an attack. Leave ASAP. Why is it whenever these
types of situations come up drugs are one of the first things to be mentioned as
a cause and or be blamed. Very few drugs are "aggressive" drugs. Name one drug
that will make you want to fight or gang up on someone. this assumes the drug
has the same reaction on all present who are under the influence of that
particular drug. Do not include alcohol as this one is a given after enough is
consumed. A drunk is not a threat. If he is you need to reevaluate your
training.
jiin
Richard Lancashire
Rob Redmond wrote:
> My statement was perfectly clear:
In my experience of schools I would say that 90% seems a little high,
from what I understand of your definitions...
> * Most people who take up the martial arts are generally smallish, weak, and
> non-athletic. In short, nerds.
Perhaps this is a karate thing, a US thing, or a personal dojo thing, I
really don't know. Most people I've studied alongside in the martial
arts have been sporty before they started martial arts. There are a
couple of small, non-athletic guys in my present class, so that makes up
about 20%. I suppose it depends what your standards of physical
excellence are... unless by nerds you just mean someone more intelligent
than you ;oP
> Maybe most people who take up the martial arts are probably not even interested
> in such.
I'm certainly not just in it for self-defence (I'd do self-defence
classes) or physical excellence (the gym's cheaper)...
Cheers,
Rich
Erik Harris
In article <3355ED...@ncl.ac.uk>, Richard Lancashire <r.b.lan...@ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
>> * Most people who take up the martial arts are generally smallish, weak, and
>> non-athletic. In short, nerds.
>Perhaps this is a karate thing, a US thing, or a personal dojo thing, I
>really don't know. Most people I've studied alongside in the martial
>arts have been sporty before they started martial arts. There are a
>couple of small, non-athletic guys in my present class, so that makes up
Now that I think of it, this it true at my kwoon as well. I'm only 1" shorter
than the supposed average of 5'9", and at least half of the people there are
considerably taller than me, and nearly all are athletic outside of the kwoon
(and I can't speak for those who started before me, but most of those that
started after me and are still with us were athletic before joining, as well).
>unless by nerds you just mean someone more intelligent than you ;oP
Well, that DOES seem to be the common definition... Someone who is smarter
and/or more hard working intellectually.
>I'm certainly not just in it for self-defence (I'd do self-defence
>classes) or physical excellence (the gym's cheaper)...
The Gym's boring in comparison, though. :-)
Kevin Hill
Rob Redmond <big...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
<3355374...@nntp3.mindspring.com>...
Rob Redmond wrote:
: My statement was perfectly clear:
:
: * 90% of the people in any martial arts school are not dangerous nor
"fighting
: material"
:
: * Most people who take up the martial arts are generally smallish, weak,
and
: non-athletic. In short, nerds.
:
: Maybe most people who take up the martial arts are probably not even
interested
: in such.
:
: I stated no opinion about whether or not this was bad, and your liberal
snippage
: to remove my statements in order to continue arguing with your opinion of
what I
: said rather than what I actually wrote is disturbing to say the least.
:
: Where you keep getting these wild, extremist interpretations and
extrapolations
: is beyond me.
:
: You seem to be taking offense because perhaps you are:
:
: * smallish, non-athletic
:
: * Not the best fighter in your club
:
: ...and therefore somehow taking personal insult that I am saying, "If I
came to
: your school, your instructor and your top member who could fight would be
a
: challenge, but you are a cream puff."
:
: Did I say that?
:
: Rob
For the record Rob, I think that you are mostly correct, but i think your
point is a bit overdone. The clubs i have trained at personally have
usually had high turnover: people show up, and it is just way more
work and pain than they are prepared for. The majority of the classes
are filled with people who are underdogs physically, and tend to
be intelligent people :) who recognize the physics of motion, etc. Bad
assed tough fighter people tend to get weeded out because of the
training restrictions (nobody wants to train with people who are
dangerous, it is bad for you!) which i guess by your definition
leaves geeks and nerds, although i personally don't think you can
apply a label so broadly as that. Most of them don't look like
the geeks in revenge of the nerds, but okay. I myself went to
engineering school and technically could be associated, however,
I have a sports background and grew out of my gangly youth. I
am 6'3" and 190-200Lbs (depends on the day) and don't seem to
fit with your generalization.
I know a few people who i would label "dangerous", and quite a few
more who i could say "can take care of themselves if they need to"
and many more who really enjoy the Kung Fu and are improving
themselves quite nicely but will never be killer ninja's. So i think
you are mostly correct.
HOWEVER
You have no basis for an opinion about the training ability of the
poster, psychoanalysis over the internet is just silly, and you are
overgeneralizing wildly in your effort to make (a very good) point.
Regards
KEvin
Alexis Belinda Dinno
In article <Pine.BSF.3.96.97041...@shell3.ba.best.com>,
Nico Hailey <ni...@demona.com> wrote:
I wrote:
> > In fact I find that beginners
> > are often at a distinct disadvantage because they are breaking down their
> > old reflexes and have not replaced them entirely. The result is someone
> > who is hesitant, doesn't 'flow,' who "thinks too much," is slow, and whose
> > techniques are in poor form.
Nico Wrote:
> Well, I have found that begginers are sometimes at an advantage because
> they are unpredictable to one who has been conditioned to fighting.
> Granted that begginers who are klutzy, or unconfident may put themselves
> more at risk, but I don't think sweeping condemnations have merrit
> against any group, including the much belegured begginner.
Wow! How egotistical can you get? You seem to suggest identifying
'begginers' of karate as a group whom general comments about effectiveness
are inherently bigoted. Note that I did not 'condemn' anyone. There are no
moral indictments to be made about people lacking in particular skills.
However, beginners who are also overconfident and gracefull tend to suffer
the same reflex deconditioning/reconditioning as clutzy ones. I do not
argue that there are no inherent differences between different people
(speed, strength, endurance, ability to take a blow, aura of confidence,
etc). My statement was a generalization, Nico, remember those? Not hard
fast rules, just trends.
Begginners are generally at risk of serious injury to themselves or others
because they don't have control, and because they do not have any set of
practical assesment tools (distancing, balance, timing/rhythm,
psychological skills, etc). They may well overreact to a situation
escalating the violence...
I really don't notice anyone recommending that people undertake a very
limited curriculum of self-defense just so that they maintain the
'unpredictibility' you seem to feel experienced martial artists lack.
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with drilling/sparring with individuals from a
wide variety of MAs and skill levels?
> > Karate helpful... from experience (mostly because MAist seem to be able to
> > void conflicts, but also from actual application of waza while defending
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^ wow that's a neat skill! have you considered a carreer in
> Middle East peace negotiation?
Well well well: who woulda thought you were a member of the spell-check brigade?
Alexis
George Winter
FAQ Emailed
On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:23:32 GMT, big...@mindspring.com (Rob Redmond)
wrote:
>[ x-posted on purpose ]
>
And you should not have,
you should have posted to AMAKS once & then a separate post to RMA.
George
_____________________________________________________________________
George Winter
QSYS Ltd. gwi...@q-sys.com (work)
Information Systems Consulting George...@msn.com (home)
Nico Hailey
> Nico Wrote:
> > Well, I have found that begginers are sometimes at an advantage because
> > they are unpredictable to one who has been conditioned to fighting.
> > Granted that begginers who are klutzy, or unconfident may put themselves
> > more at risk, but I don't think sweeping condemnations have merrit
> > against any group, including the much belegured begginner.
Alexis wrote:
> Wow! How egotistical can you get? You seem to suggest identifying
me? egotistical? I suggest *you* reread your post to AMAKS which ended
in
Physics man: It's the law.
> However, beginners who are also overconfident and gracefull tend to suffer
> the same reflex deconditioning/reconditioning as clutzy ones. I do not
> argue that there are no inherent differences between different people
> (speed, strength, endurance, ability to take a blow, aura of confidence,
> etc). My statement was a generalization, Nico, remember those? Not hard
> fast rules, just trends.
Well for every trend there are those who don't follow. I was just saying
that
sometimes a begginer can do something so unpredictable that it suprises
the more
experienced karateka.
> Begginners are generally at risk of serious injury to themselves or others
> because they don't have control, and because they do not have any set of
> practical assesment tools (distancing, balance, timing/rhythm,
> psychological skills, etc). They may well overreact to a situation
> escalating the violence...
yes, but I thought the point in self defence was to injure others. And I
would say
that quite a few experienced karateka would "overreact" an escalate
violence
of a situation.
> I really don't notice anyone recommending that people undertake a very
> limited curriculum of self-defense just so that they maintain the
> 'unpredictibility' you seem to feel experienced martial artists lack.
I was not recomending that as a good course of action. Of course an
experience
MAist is most capable of defending hirself from attack. But I don't
think
anyone was giving begginners enough credit for what they *can* do.
>
> > > Karate helpful... from experience (mostly because MAist seem to be able to
> > > void conflicts, but also from actual application of waza while defending
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^ wow that's a neat skill! have you considered a carreer in
> > Middle East peace negotiation?
>
> Well well well: who woulda thought you were a member of the spell-check brigade?
no, that was word usage. quite different from spelling and/or grammar.
Nico
--
"Not consistent? Consistency isn't a nessary aspect of
the universe" -St. Alia-of-the-Knife
mark a goetsch
$ Why is it whenever these
$ types of situations come up drugs are one of the first things to be
mentioned as
$ a cause and or be blamed. Very few drugs are "aggressive" drugs. Name one
drug
$ that will make you want to fight or gang up on someone. this assumes the
drug
$ has the same reaction on all present who are under the influence of that
$ particular drug. Do not include alcohol as this one is a given after
enough is
$ consumed. A drunk is not a threat. If he is you need to reevaluate your
$ training.
A few things too add.
1. PCP is a drug that has "aggressive" tendencies. But PCP users from my
experience tend to be loners for this reason. Even Gangs don't trust them.
2. Heavy druggies are too busy getting high to hang together as a kick-ass
gang.
3. While drug users are a large portion of small crimes they are generally
single isolated incidents.
4. Drug dealers as a whole try to keep the small crime in their
neighborhood small so as not to attract unwanted attention.
5. Alcohol does produce the type of results that the victim describes but
most groups like that need something to instigate them to that action.
Mark
Solomon Paul Sammy
In article <5j4a0d$7...@camel1.mindspring.com>, ji...@atl.mindspring.com
(jiin) wrote:
> }Maybe the gang were druggies looking for trouble, or on some sort of
> }chemical with an aggressive side-effect.
> }Perhaps the victim was not of the "correct" ethnic minority. I myself
> have
> }been attacked by several people- I suspect the first, but since I am of
> }mixed race, perhaps the latter also applied.
>
> In both cases you should not have been there.
Eh? Thanks for a pointless sweeping statement.
> The first indication that you are
> not welcome should have resulted in your first step towards the door.
> If you were attacked you may not have provoked it but you definately
> knew the atmosphere was conducive to an attack. Leave ASAP.
The first indication I was not welcome was when the people turned on me.
Minutes before I was joking and talking to them. I was having the usual
"are you chinese or what?" type chats I usually have with gallus youths.
And, it all happened in a *packed* train, after a late night concert/mini
fesitival. There *was* no way out, except onto the railway, from a moving
train, even if I did wish to leave my girlfriend behind, alone.
> Why is it whenever these
> types of situations come up drugs are one of the first things to be
> mentioned as a cause and or be blamed.
Because of the way the atmosphere turned from being civil to such
aggression. I am more used to drunks. If the people were overtly drunken
then I would have tried to sit no-where near them. As it was they actually
seemed pleasant enough at the start. And the *were* on substances, as they
were casually discussing the matter. Does it not seem a simple enough
deduction?
And as for not being there if the youths were racist: what am I to do? Do
you a fool-proof way of telling these people? The short, Neo-Nazi haircut
quite fashionable in this part of the world, even if that was ever a
reliable method of detection. Do I pass out political questionnaires or
what? Besides, I have experienced very few obviously racist incidents here
in Scotland- its not something that I need to think about on a day-to-day
basis. I *do* doubt that racism was involved, but its not impossible.
Anyone with half-brain cell can imagine several possible scenarios for being
attacked uprovoked, in a confined space. I only mentioned my experience as
hard evidence. I did not and do not want my experience to be discussed
closely in a public formum.
>Very few drugs are "aggressive" drugs. Name one
> drug
> that will make you want to fight or gang up on someone. this assumes the
> drug
> has the same reaction on all present who are under the influence of that
> particular drug.
I don't know of any, which is why I said "maybe". However, I'm not an
expert in the matter- I only offer it as an explaination for inexplicable
behaviour. Are *you* an expert in substances, pray tell?
> Do not include alcohol as this one is a given after
> enough
> is
> consumed. A drunk is not a threat. If he is you need to reevaluate your
> training.
Agreed. See above.
Look, I know the direction you are coming from: awareness is a large factor
in self-defence. But there are times when this is not enough. The only was
to totally avoid possible dangerous situations is never to leave your home!
And besides, I find your implication that I placed myself (and my
girl-friend) in a dangerous situation through stupidity quite insulting.
jiin
"mark a goetsch" <no...@cyberconnect.com> wrote while dreaming of greatness:
}GJJ or BJJ have been far over publicized. A punch is a punch. If I punch
}someone with enough force and Kime in the nose they will fall : period.
}What they know at that point doesn't matter. The only question then is
}distance and timing.
}We won't talk about how long one of these fighters will last 2 on 1 from
}the mount (the GJJ position). Or mention the fights that with poor quality
}opponents with an average of 5 years training in martial arts.
GJJ has lots of holes. The same as all martial arts. The UFC is a concoction of
the GJJ heirarchy and some monied promoters to A) promote GJJ and B) to make
money. I live for the day that my students put me in the guard or mount position
( with a little help of course) and they find out just how vulnerable you are in
either of these positions.
}Shotokan teaches one thing and one thing better than most martial arts and
}that is the ability to punch a person with maximal power. It then teaches
}the timing and distance needed to do that.
}Add to this the mentality learned with such focus and you have an effective
}method of hurting someone if you need to. That's it. Simple, no tricks
}(most of those an experienced street fighter can beat anyhow).
Mark you surprise me again! Nicely said.
jiin
jiin
"mark a goetsch" <no...@cyberconnect.com> wrote while dreaming of greatness:
}I have a student (a high school student) that was in his car and stopped at
}an intersection. There were about 10 'bangers on the streetcorner, one said
}something to this student. He replied "What?" the 'banger took this as an
}insult and came over punching through the open window and barely catching
}the student just above the eye. Luckily it was a poor punch. He then drove
}off, as the rest started coming. He lost one of the windows of the car but
}he escaped. He asked me what I would've done and I said probably the same
}thing. He felt a little bad but I told him that no matter how good he is as
}a fighter with those odds and in that position there is no way to survive.
}Even a gun wouldn't have worked since they would have only shot back. He
}was smart for getting out of there and living to fight another day.
The proper response is to nod and fiddle with the radio while keeping an eye on
them. They start to move ... drive off.
jiin
jiin
sh...@wwdc.com (SHARKŽ) wrote while dreaming of greatness:
}lgd...@nwu.edu (Angie) scribbled with their Crayola:
}>Yes, I consider your comments incredibly offensive.
} Maybe I am reading into Robs argument but for me he's saying that he
}helps each student in his dojo attain their personal best.
} That's all I ask of a teacher. They can only do so much for me until
}"I" decide what I want and how bad I want it.
} Maybe I'm just not seeing the real argument here. I'm sure someone
}will jump in and point it to me.
Glad you read it right. At last someone from RMA that can think. Maybe that is
too hasty though ;)
jiin
jiin
big...@mindspring.com (Rob Redmond) wrote while dreaming of greatness:
}I did several times, but the particular thread was being re-attached
}to both groups on purpose by the other person, so my effort was being
}wasted. I didn't see any reason to go cutting and pasting when this
}jerk was just going to hook it all back together again in the next
}response and acheive the same effect.
Well in a round about way I did get the answer to my question ;)
jiin
SHARK®
SHARK®
lgd...@nwu.edu (Angie) scribbled with their Crayola:
>Yes, I consider your comments incredibly offensive.
Maybe I am reading into Robs argument but for me he's saying that he
helps each student in his dojo attain their personal best.
That's all I ask of a teacher. They can only do so much for me until
"I" decide what I want and how bad I want it.
Maybe I'm just not seeing the real argument here. I'm sure someone
will jump in and point it to me.
Carcharodon Carcharias
"Ronin"
jiin
Solomon Paul Sammy <s...@argonet.co.uk> wrote while dreaming of greatness:
}Eh? Thanks for a pointless sweeping statement.
It had a point you must have missed it.
}> The first indication that you are
}> not welcome should have resulted in your first step towards the door.
}> If you were attacked you may not have provoked it but you definately
}> knew the atmosphere was conducive to an attack. Leave ASAP.
}The first indication I was not welcome was when the people turned on me.
}Minutes before I was joking and talking to them. I was having the usual
}"are you chinese or what?" type chats I usually have with gallus youths.
I will take this as a reference to a casual chat and not the true content. If it
was the content then you have your answer.
}And, it all happened in a *packed* train, after a late night concert/mini
}fesitival. There *was* no way out, except onto the railway, from a moving
}train, even if I did wish to leave my girlfriend behind, alone.
That can be a tight one.
}
}Anyone with half-brain cell can imagine several possible scenarios for being
}attacked uprovoked, in a confined space. I only mentioned my experience as
}hard evidence. I did not and do not want my experience to be discussed
}closely in a public formum.
Don't use it then.
}>Very few drugs are "aggressive" drugs. Name one
}> drug
}> that will make you want to fight or gang up on someone. this assumes the
}> drug
}> has the same reaction on all present who are under the influence of that
}> particular drug.
}
}I don't know of any, which is why I said "maybe". However, I'm not an
}expert in the matter- I only offer it as an explaination for inexplicable
}behaviour. Are *you* an expert in substances, pray tell?
Actually as a youth I dabbled in alt.rec.drugs.for.a.good .time.
Not proud of it but there it is. I outgrew it thank goodness ( a few of my
friends never did )
}And besides, I find your implication that I placed myself (and my
}girl-friend) in a dangerous situation through stupidity quite insulting.
That's OK. If you find them insulting they must have hit a nerve. BTW I did not
look closely enough to realize you were in Scotland so culture makes for many
differences. My apologies on that one.
jiin
Joel Young
In article <01bc4aa7$7a6710e0$8280fdcd@default>,
"mark a goetsch" <no...@cyberconnect.com> writes:
> the purpose. Not so with Martial Arts. Yoga masters started the ball
> rolling with the founding of the Shaolin Temple where fighting routines
> were added to spiritual routines to keep the monks healthy and safe. In
> Japan the Samurai added Zen to their Martial Arts so that the Samurai could
>
AFAIK:
Bodhidharma brought what was to become Zen Buddhism to China
from India. Buddhism was taught at the Shaolin temple, and
while both came from India, Buddhism is QUITE different from
Yoga.
Hands palm to palm...
Joel
Erling Paulsen
<Rob wrote some some stuff that many found offensive about the usefulness of
fighting arts in realtime and if it can help character etc.. etc.... >
Well Rob, that's a touchy subject. This must have raised some flaming, I bet.
Anyway, here's my experience , subjective, as an instructor of Kyokushinkai. I
don't think any MA is useless in a fight. You will be, however week, more
capable of handling situations after training some than before you started. You
will know some timing, have better speed and contact with your muscles and body
entities. Have a better knowing of yourself and build up a sort of danger radar
that many non MA people never develop. Self-defence is not the BANG-SLASH
climax, SF is most importantly, in my view, all the time and theater before the
clash where you must be physical. In others words, train voilence and
understand it, then you will avoid beeing a victim. There's always a reason for
why YOU are beeing smashed down and not the other person in front or behind
you. People that want to hit you are mostly coward bastards that knoe they CAN
fight - they will usually not attack unless they are 120% certain they will
beat you, or on heavy drug or 10 buddies to assist them -hiding in the crowd,
but still they will take someone else if you beam a strong aura. I will stop
this, as it's a whole different topic.
I will have to agree with you a little bit, but in general what you are
claiming. i.e. that MA does not build character or help the weak, is not
exactly how I see it. I think I'm the classical example of how karate helped me
build a little character. When I started training, at 13yrs old, I had no
self-esteem that was worth anything, I was very fat and was the favored
punching-bag for the big boys. After I started training karate I just even got
more trouble because they knew and bullied me more. I never told my instructor
about it, or my parents - thoufh they saw through my lies when I said I had
falled dowm the stairs at school. I built up a lot of anger inside and kept
training and training, biting my teeth together- as the years went by my body
control became better and my fat also went away, and by that time I had
forgotten all about the revenge. My problem was really myself, that I looked
and acted like a victim. Always walked nervously with my eyes on the ground
etc.. after years of training, but I didn't notice because it was going so
slow, my eyes went outward and foreward, my self-esteem flourished and I felt
on top of the world. I think that karate helped me build my character in the
sense of more self-respect. Also, karate kept me away from drinking and smoking
and other social hazards for the young at age. Through karate I also learned
that controlling one-self was more important than knocking down others in
revenge. However, there is no unison world agreed norm on good character and
what helps build it.
After training and winning point karate tournaments I started to get paranoid
and thinking, "What about in real street bouts?". We don't train wuko (point
fight) in kyokushin, but in Norway we do for juniors, for learning timing and
developing speed. This is a fact, I saw a student of one of the traditional
karate schools from my town in a fight. He was fast and totally surprised his
drunk foe with roundhouse kick to the head, but he was so used to point
sparring that he actually, out of reflex, just pushed some air on him and
pulled his foot back - then got headbutted to the ground. This startled me. I
started to emphasize more on full contact, in norway it's not allowed to
participate in full contact before the age of 18, and also took on some
Jui-Jitsu self defence seminars. Feeling that the Jui-Jitsu didn't fit my body
or mentality I focused totally on Kyokushin and full contact. After a while,
and after reaching 18 of age, I actually managed to get second in the national
no-pad full contact tournament and for the first time K.O'ed someone. First I
was afraid, but then the peace came over me and it felt wonderful, and I
realized I had awakened something in me and also thrown out the paranoia around
the question of my own efficiency. For the effort I was granted a place to the
european championship, next year. After recovering I thought I needed more
experience and went to the danish open, there I was injured for life as I
kicked my ancle straight to hell - good-bye career. I believe that I was not a
fighter from the start of life, but learned to become one, not because I was
brainwashed by a macho style, but because I found my fighting spirit and the
will to not give up. So I think Kyokushin gave me some character, yes.
This is what I think: If you only kick in the air and always pull your
techniques back or have the mentality which will make you always say "oops..
partner, was that technique too hard!!!" you miss something martial and all you
practice is art or ballerina dance. In Kyokushin we have an easy method to
naturally make only the strongest stand in line when the time for shodan
grading arrives. We push real hard and then push a little more, offcourse
gradually (all beginners get the chance to build up slowly on the physics and
the full contact - all basic builds slowly up to hard contact sparring), so the
weak will naturally quit when the trainings get harder and harder, because they
cannot stay put - they'd rather be home in front of the telly watching
Seinfeld. We must have a certain standard for being respected. If you want to
only train for exercize or hobby, then you will seldom advance to more than
green or maximum brown belt. The normal time needed for reaching black belt in
norway is 6-7 years in Kyokushin, in that time we also loose all the
bully-minded street fighters that come to learn and kick ass, because they
simply don't have the patience. In all the cases of bully people who stayed put
in our club, they stopped being bully people and on the contrary became
peaceful and harmonious, perhaps because the karate had impact on the behaviour
and perception of things, gave them better character? Some people say we're
too macho and are destroying the possibillity to keep some good people, OK, but
if you don't meet the standard - sorry we cannot let you advance just to be
nice. The shodan test is also so hard, that many people have serious problems
to motivate themself to train for it, mostly because of the obligatory 30-man
full-contact kumite and the rigid physical tests. (40 for nidan and 50 for
sandan) If you're over 35, then you may choose to skip the kumite. So, in
Kyokushin we still believe that our black belts makes a difference in the
street, because we must all meet a certain Kyokushin standard. We wan't to
stand out and make a difference and we believe we do, if we really do is
another matter.
...we have open tournaments in our region, but only the kickboxers and some
contact training TKD people dare come on invitation. We never have money
prices, so if you want to compete it must be on behalf of testing yourself.
It's not only man against man in every fight, sometimes I believe the style can
make a difference. I believe that when you do potentially dangerous fights
compared to non dangerous light contact fights, then your mentality is at
another level. You go out there and know you can get hurt, and your intention
is also to get the other fighter down, the faster the better and less injury
and exhaustion to you. With this in mind, you will fight differently, without
smiling and with total dedication. The audience fades away and does not exist
anymore, you get ice-cold automatically when the fight starts, almost like
driving your car off the road at high speed - when everything for a moment
seems to freeze and go in slow motion and pain is not felt before after the
fight is finnished. I don't know what the natural drugs that the brain produces
are called (endorfins and adrenalin are perhaps two of them!!), but they are
quite helpful for letting you not i.e. feel much pain. My tai-chi teacher said
that this is also what tai-chi tries to help you with, produce these on your
own mental command instead of having to be in serious danger. This is at least
how I have felt it.. and for my experience I think that you live in a naive
world if you think that non contact partner rehearsal of kata bunkai will help
very much in the real street. Basic is your foundation offcourse and without
the timing, coordination , muscle development and understanding of movements
that it gives you, you would be swaying more uncertain in your fighting. It's
like the old example of building your house with a good foundation so it wan't
fall so easy. But on top of that foundation you must train hard and realistic
and not just look down at it and think, "hmm.. I'm pretty steady, I know all
the tecniques", but can you apply them hard and to the correct spot on a moving
drunk target that is 20Kg heavier than you? Good muscles can even hide many
pressure points and leave them harmless and protected under muscles and flesh..
oops, touching another topic again.
We also arrange, twice a year, budo weekends, where all styles come together
and have one instruction each for all. Here we learn ground fighting with i.e.
judo people a bunch of uselfull stuff from others that we can incorprate to our
own arsenal of tricks. In Kyokushin we are pretty bad when we get on our back -
and we know it, so we try to compensate by training this with the people who
know it the best, the wrestlers, judo and jui-jitsu people. When I get old and
cannot be as physical I will train more tai-chi. I train a little now (very
little), but again not on the healing part, more on the fighting side to
efficiate and understand my karate better.
Oops.. I probably laid out more than I intended, but it's a free forum and I
hope some bothers to read through it all.
OSU, Erling
mark a goetsch
$ AFAIK:
$ Bodhidharma brought what was to become Zen Buddhism to China
$ from India. Buddhism was taught at the Shaolin temple, and
$ while both came from India, Buddhism is QUITE different from
$ Yoga.
This is not correct. Chan Buddhism came to Japan not Zen Buddhism, there
are a great many differences. Chan Buddhism also didn't come from
Bhodiharma but was a stricter form of the Bhuddhism being practiced in
China at the time. As far as the yoga goes, it is almost certain that
Bhodhirma practiced Yoga (whether he was a Yogi or on is another question).
Most of the earlier moves in "Shaolin" Kung-Fu (or whatever term) have
similar movements in Yoga. Whether there is some provable part there is
another question. There is evidence that the original movements were more
for breathing exercises than self-defense and where pray-tell to they pick
that up.
Mark
Solomon Paul Sammy
In article <5j71cu$4...@camel7.mindspring.com>, ji...@atl.mindspring.com
(jiin) wrote:
> }The first indication I was not welcome was when the people turned on me.
> }Minutes before I was joking and talking to them. I was having the usual
> }"are you chinese or what?" type chats I usually have with gallus youths.
> I will take this as a reference to a casual chat and not the true content.
> If it was the content then you have your answer.
I'm not sure if I understand this comment- do you mean that questions
pertaining to my ethnic background would indicate the motivation for the
assault? I suppose it might, but I've had plenty of similar conversations
without hassle.
> }Anyone with half-brain cell can imagine several possible scenarios for
> being
> }attacked uprovoked, in a confined space. I only mentioned my experience
> as
> }hard evidence. I did not and do not want my experience to be discussed
> }closely in a public formum.
>
> Don't use it then.
The operative word here is *closely*, but, yeah, I did mention it in a
public place.
> }And besides, I find your implication that I placed myself (and my
> }girl-friend) in a dangerous situation through stupidity quite insulting.
>
> That's OK. If you find them insulting they must have hit a nerve.
They hit a nerve insofar as I don't like being dubbed stupid by someone
without the full range of facts.
> BTW I did not look closely enough to realize you were in Scotland so
> culture makes for many differences. My apologies on that one.
Well, the .uk.co ending of my email address doesn't actually specify
"Scotland".
Matt Leo
One thing that bothers me about these discussions is that they are based on the
assumption that _if_ you have the right style and _if_ you have a good instructor and
_if_ you trained hard enough, then you aren't going to get hurt fighting. Conversely
if you get hurt, then you didn't train hard enough, had bad instruction, or used a bad
style. Inevitably holding this assumption means that you end up confirming
your own predjudices no matter what the facts of the individual case is. Fighting
involves uncertainty and the chance of loss, injury and death no matter how you are
prepared.
What you are really talking about is shaving marginal percentages over time until you
have a better than even chance in most circumstances; in any one year is not enough
time to cover every aspect of fighting; an instructor must choose something to focus on
and will inevitably fail to prepare some of his students for what they will face.
Sun Tzu said, when the front is defended the rear is vulnerable; when the rear is
defended, the front is vulnerable; when all is defended, all is vulnerable.
=*\=
Matt Leo
jiin
erl...@stud.cs.uit.no (Erling Paulsen) wrote while dreaming of greatness:
}<Rob wrote some some stuff that many found offensive about the usefulness of
}fighting arts in realtime and if it can help character etc.. etc.... >
}
}Well Rob, that's a touchy subject. This must have raised ,<snipped crap and
more crap>
}Oops.. I probably laid out more than I intended, but it's a free forum and I
}hope some bothers to read through it all.
}OSU, Erling
BS utterly and totally. And don't end your posts with OSU since you don't know
what it means.
jiin
Don Wagner
Matt Leo <acr...@internetMCI.com> wrote:
>One thing that bothers me about these discussions is that they are based on the
>assumption that _if_ you have the right style and _if_ you have a good instructor and
>_if_ you trained hard enough, then you aren't going to get hurt fighting.
Who said this Matt? Thats "head in the clouds" talk.
--Don--
"I am the one you warned me of"
~~BOC
jiin
Matt Leo <acr...@internetMCI.com> wrote while dreaming of greatness:
}One thing that bothers me about these discussions is that they are based on the
}assumption that _if_ you have the right style and _if_ you have a good
instructor and
}_if_ you trained hard enough, then you aren't going to get hurt fighting.
Yup. It doesn't bother me at all. Bottom line the trained fighter has an
advantage. you mayor may not get hurt but you will get less hurt after you have
trained diligently.
}Conversely
}if you get hurt, then you didn't train hard enough, had bad instruction, or
used a bad
}style. Inevitably holding this assumption means that you end up confirming
}your own predjudices no matter what the facts of the individual case is.
Not true.
}Fighting
}involves uncertainty and the chance of loss, injury and death no matter how you
are
}prepared.
And you will lose more if you are untrained. We are talking values of one to ten
here. I personally will not "lose" a ten on this scale. I may die but stuff
happens. You can't block a bullet.
You remind me of the kids in my dojo playing "what if..."
}What you are really talking about is shaving marginal percentages over time
until you
}have a better than even chance in most circumstances; in any one year is not
enough
}time to cover every aspect of fighting; an instructor must choose something to
focus on
}and will inevitably fail to prepare some of his students for what they will
face.
What is enough in your opinion?
}Sun Tzu said, when the front is defended the rear is vulnerable; when the rear
is
}defended, the front is vulnerable; when all is defended, all is vulnerable.
Sun Tsu did not live in the age of the MAC 10 and the 9 mm. Just as you wouldn't
fight a war like the British did in the 1800's , you wouldn't use Sun Tsu's
thought's on the streets of DC, Atlanta, Detroit, Seattle or New York.
Talk Sh*t Squidlo ... ( Dan Aykroid ... Dr. Detroit)
jiin
Joaquin Torres
I am of the opinion that if you even get into a fight in the first
place, you screwed up all around. Granted, sometimes a fight is
unavoidable.
Joaquin Torres
Daniel M. Arner
ji...@atl.mindspring.com (jiin) wrote while in an aggressive mood after
smoking some pcp:
>Mark you know not of what you speak. Without getting into details I can tell you
>from personal experience and experience with friends PCP does not cause
>aggressive behavior in and of itself. Surroundings and influences play the major
>role here.
Always an excuse.
dan
mark a goetsch
$ BS utterly and totally. And don't end your posts with OSU since you don't
know
$ what it means.
This is from "Japanese for the Martial Arts" a tape/book by Alexander D.C.
Kask :
"Oosu is a special phrase used primarily by athletes and physical laborers.
Although it is used in some Dojo, it is not standard usage and ma not be
appropriate in other schools.....It can be used to mean many things
including, "yes", "no", "I'm fine," and "I'm not doing so well." I would
advise using the term. It is primarily used as an emphatic answer to a
question and the vastly different meanings it conveys can be expressed by
the relative strength or weakness of your voice when saying it."
Mark
mark a goetsch
$ Mark you know not of what you speak. Without getting into details I can
tell you
$ from personal experience and experience with friends PCP does not cause
$ aggressive behavior in and of itself. Surroundings and influences play
the major
$ role here.
Clinically you are right.
I've had two experiences :
1st A street fight with someone on PCP.
2nd Trying to stop a thief in a department store.
Mark
Richard Frazier
<I take a short siesta and look what happens!>
Richard Frazier
Lee Casebolt
jiin wrote:
>
> }Sun Tzu said, when the front is defended the rear is vulnerable; when the rear
> is
> }defended, the front is vulnerable; when all is defended, all is vulnerable.
>
> Sun Tsu did not live in the age of the MAC 10 and the 9 mm. Just as you wouldn't
> fight a war like the British did in the 1800's , you wouldn't use Sun Tsu's
> thought's on the streets of DC, Atlanta, Detroit, Seattle or New York.
>
> Talk Sh*t Squidlo ... ( Dan Aykroid ... Dr. Detroit)
>
> jiin
OK, jiin, I'm with you up until this point. Sun Tzu is still recognized
as one of the premier strategists precisely because his principles are
timeless. Focusing on one area will always leave another relatively
exposed, and trying to concentrate on *everything* at once will
inevitably result in insufficient concentration in any one area. It has
always been this way and, I suspect, always will be.
Lee
Richard Lancashire
So is screwing up. Believe me.
Cheers,
Rich
Do...@yankeepub.com
As a first time reader I've followed this string with great interest.
Here's my cent-and-a-half. Rob used very strong language in that early
posting. I think most of the half-formed opinions directed against him
were a result of the words "geek" and "nerd." Lets face it, by his
definition most of us are in that category. But didn't he also say that
he doesn't group himself with the fighters he talks about? That gives
his comments some serious credibility to me because he's willing to
recognize his own shortcomings in a fight.
I've been involved in jujitsu for almost two years. I'm a good
athlete, fairly big, but I hate conflict. Never been in a fight. I'm
just starting to feel like what I've learned could help if someone ever
throws a punch at me, but I'm also sure that the first time that happens
I'll freeze, just like the original poster who ended up in surgery. What
will happen then is anyone's guess. My teacher makes sure that we know
that what we learn is not a guarantee of success in a fight, but a way
of narrowing the odds against you. I'm more aware of potentially
dangerous situations and of what is going on around me. That makes it
less likely I'll end up in a really bad situation. And at this point I
might know enough to at least avoid getting popped if a drunk in a bar
takes a swing at me. In black and white, one-on-one combat the fighter
has a psychological and physical edge over the non-fighter, but that
doesn't mean that you can't or shouldn't try to improve your chances
against the time when those fighters try to victimize you. And can't you
take that experience of a fight and learn from it so that maybe you
don't freeze the next time?
One last note: As a newcomer to martial arts I can second the notion
that a year of training might actually do more harm than good. After one
year my training was still in my head, not in my gut, not in my
reflexes, not automatic in any way. Only a few basic pieces are there
now. If you have to stop to decide what to do when an attack comes
you've already missed your opportunity, and probably would have been
better of flailing away, just as you might have before any training at
all. Sorry about the length of this one; I guess that was more like my
dollar fifty.
Richard Frazier
On 20 Apr 1997 23:25:37 GMT, "mark a goetsch" <no...@cyberconnect.com>
wrote:
<snip>
Come on Mark!!!! Watch those shpxvat headers!
Matt Leo
jiin wrote:
> } Inevitably holding this assumption means that you end up confirming
> }your own predjudices no matter what the facts of the individual case is.
>
> Not true.
So, holding the assumption that has the power to explain everything in the absence of (or face
of) any further empircial evidence doesn't tend to reinforce your existing predjudices? What
exactly does it do?
> And you will lose more if you are untrained. We are talking values of one to ten
> here. I personally will not "lose" a ten on this scale. I may die but stuff
> happens. You can't block a bullet.
When did I say you could block a bullet? When did I say you _can't_ improve your chances by
training? You're setting up a straw argument here.
My position is that you should train self defense if such things interest you, but that it's no
guarantee that you won't face a situation you can't win. I think that is the same as what you
are trying to say (or are you saying that if we take guns out of the picture, you are invincible
in a street fight? I confess I find your response somewhat garbled and it could be read that
way). Where I believe we part company is that I think it is important for someone, preferably the
instructor, to emphasize the "no guarantee" part, which most of us don't like to think about but
everyone needs to understand. Confidence is healthy, but overconfidence kills.
> You remind me of the kids in my dojo playing "what if..."
On the contrary, _you_ are the one playing what if. You are implicitly saying, "If he trained
the way I do he would certainly have come out better." Unfortunately, that's pure speculation,
as are comments that the originator clearly needed a better instructor. We don't know that and
can't know if from the information provided.
> } one year is not enough time to cover every aspect of fighting; an instructor
> } must choose something to focus on and will inevitably fail to prepare some
> } of his students for what they will face.
>
> What is enough in your opinion?
I'll tell you how long _I_ think it takes, if you tell me how long _you_ think it takes. Does it
take less than a year? While you're at it, you can answer the question "How long is a piece of
string?" (Hint - it depends on the piece of string).
> }Sun Tzu said, when the front is defended the rear is vulnerable; when the rear
> }is defended, the front is vulnerable; when all is defended, all is vulnerable.
>
> Sun Tsu did not live in the age of the MAC 10 and the 9 mm. Just as you wouldn't
> fight a war like the British did in the 1800's , you wouldn't use Sun Tsu's
> thought's on the streets of DC, Atlanta, Detroit, Seattle or New York.
In this instance, my application of Sun Tzu's dictum is that an instructor who is aim is teaching
self defense should first equip his students with the skills he feels they are most likely to
need, fully knowing that some of his students might _possibly_ need some of other the skills
before he gets around to teaching them. Are you saying you disagree? Should he try to teach
everything all at once, or just the things he thinks are less likely to be useful?
Sun Tzu is teaching us to discard the futile pursuit of invulnerability and to instead to prepare
for what we believe most likely to happen. He further teaches us to make a science of
vulberabilty and strength, and to choose when and how we engage the enemy accordingly. Given
the mortality rate of the children who play with the hardware you mention in the places you
menntion, I'd say these principles are still applicable today. You might agree if you had
bothered to read what you so ignorantly dismiss.
> Talk Sh*t Squidlo ... ( Dan Aykroid ... Dr. Detroit)
Aha, the movie that convinced me _not_ to get cable!
=*\=
Matt
Erling Paulsen
In the most humble article <01bc4de2$876322a0$8280fdcd@default>,
no...@cyberconnect.com says...
Mark,
I do not know to who you are reffering, but I will allow myself to answer:
In MA terms, yes it's true. An emphatic response that is not common i daily
life, yes, much used in institutions where you obey commands, like in the
police, fire-brigade, yakuza and etc...
However, directly and literally from spelling it means to PUSH. So when i.e. I
end a posting with OSU, it means PUSH - train hard, keep on and don't give up.
OSU is very much used in my style which is Kyokushinkai and this is a way of
using it.
The motto of our style is also "OSU-no-seishin" - the spirit of perseverance,
the will of persistence a concept that is the style's basic philosophy. Do not
give up is the essence of Osu-No-Seishin and Kyokushin. When we i.e. are doing
hundreds of kicks we will do loud OSU instead of KIAI - it's then like saying
PUSH, PUSH with each repitition, giving a good and unified spirit to the group.
You should not be so fast to judge when you don't really know yourself, other
what you read in a book which only explains a few typical uses of the word -
even in reference to MA.
- Erling
Richard Frazier
<faq emailed>
On Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:20:01 +0000, Do...@yankeepub.com wrote:
mark a goetsch
$ I've been involved in jujitsu for almost two years. I'm a good
$ athlete, fairly big, but I hate conflict. Never been in a fight. I'm
$ just starting to feel like what I've learned could help if someone ever
$ throws a punch at me, but I'm also sure that the first time that happens
$ I'll freeze, just like the original poster who ended up in surgery. What
$ will happen then is anyone's guess. My teacher makes sure that we know
$ that what we learn is not a guarantee of success in a fight, but a way
$ of narrowing the odds against you. I'm more aware of potentially
$ dangerous situations and of what is going on around me. That makes it
$ less likely I'll end up in a really bad situation. And at this point I
$ might know enough to at least avoid getting popped if a drunk in a bar
$ takes a swing at me. In black and white, one-on-one combat the fighter
$ has a psychological and physical edge over the non-fighter, but that
$ doesn't mean that you can't or shouldn't try to improve your chances
$ against the time when those fighters try to victimize you. And can't you
$ take that experience of a fight and learn from it so that maybe you
$ don't freeze the next time?
$ One last note: As a newcomer to martial arts I can second the notion
$ that a year of training might actually do more harm than good. After one
$ year my training was still in my head, not in my gut, not in my
$ reflexes, not automatic in any way. Only a few basic pieces are there
$ now. If you have to stop to decide what to do when an attack comes
$ you've already missed your opportunity, and probably would have been
$ better of flailing away, just as you might have before any training at
$ all. Sorry about the length of this one; I guess that was more like my
$ dollar fifty.
Finally, someone from rec.MA that has this understanding. I was starting to
lose hope!!!!
Mark
Richard Frazier
<faq emailed>
^v^
Rick
Appointed Keeper of the One True Book of Netiquette
Master of The Secret Order of the ^v^
And Doler of Frivolous Castigations
jiin
Matt Leo <acr...@internetMCI.com> wrote while dreaming of greatness:
}}pure speculation,
<snip>
}can't know if from the information provided.
<snip>
}> }Sun Tzu said, when the front is defended the rear is vulnerable; when the
rear
}> }is defended, the front is vulnerable; when all is defended, all is
vulnerable.
}>
}> Sun Tsu did not live in the age of the MAC 10 and the 9 mm. Just as you
wouldn't
}> fight a war like the British did in the 1800's , you wouldn't use Sun Tsu's
}> thought's on the streets of DC, Atlanta, Detroit, Seattle or New York.
}In this instance, my application of Sun Tzu's dictum is that an instructor who
is aim is teaching
}self defense should first equip his students with the skills he feels they are
most likely to
}need, fully knowing that some of his students might _possibly_ need some of
other the skills
}before he gets around to teaching them. Are you saying you disagree? Should he
try to teach
}everything all at once, or just the things he thinks are less likely to be
useful?
}Sun Tzu is teaching us to <snip> You might agree if you had
}bothered to read what you so ignorantly dismiss.
I have read the work. In depth actually. I think you presume to know what it
says because you have read the text. Or what was passed off as the text through
a translator. You remind me of one of my younger students doing kata by rote.
Never really quite getting the point of kata at all.
}
}> Talk Sh*t Squidlo ... ( Dan Aykroid ... Dr. Detroit)
}Aha, the movie that convinced me _not_ to get cable!
The " what you so ignorantly dismiss." wasn't nice. Don't you follow the dojo
kun? ;)
< squelch ... ^V^ leader be advised ... squelch... we are on the target ...
squelch ... waiting for the screen to illuminate ... visor down, authenticate
mission please ... squelch ...>
jiin
george weller
> I do not know to who you are reffering, but I will allow myself to answer:
> In MA terms, yes it's true. An emphatic response that is not common i daily
> life, yes, much used in institutions where you obey commands, like in the
> police, fire-brigade, yakuza and etc...
Hmm, I wonder why office people are always saying it here to me in the
morning...I didn't realize I was commanding them to do something!?!?!
> However, directly and literally from spelling it means to PUSH. So when i.e. I
> end a posting with OSU, it means PUSH - train hard, keep on and don't give up.
> OSU is very much used in my style which is Kyokushinkai and this is a way of
> using it.
Really?!?! I've never heard that here in Japan yet. People here usually
say "Ganbatte!", if they said "Osu" to me meaning PUSH, I'd reply "Nani o
oshimasu ka?", or better yet "Nan de mo ii desu".
Correct me if I'm wrong Rob. :)
> The motto of our style is also "OSU-no-seishin" - the spirit of perseverance,
> the will of persistence a concept that is the style's basic philosophy. Do not
> give up is the essence of Osu-No-Seishin and Kyokushin. When we i.e. are doing
> hundreds of kicks we will do loud OSU instead of KIAI - it's then like saying
> PUSH, PUSH with each repitition, giving a good and unified spirit to the group.
Sounds to me like amisinformed American caca. It reminds me of this
American who claims to be a 9th degree black belt and made his own style
called "Akarui-do" because he thought hit means "The Way of the Bright".
How silly can one get??
> You should not be so fast to judge when you don't really know yourself, other
> what you read in a book which only explains a few typical uses of the word -
> even in reference to MA.
The "God of Osu" has spoken.
--
George "wondering if Rob will even bother to reply to this one"
Shotokan Karate International Homepage - http://www.csun.edu/~hbcsc302
BaDge
Interesting if monodimentional thread.
Did everyone forget that Fighting, in a warrior sense is made
up of attributes, technique, 'fast-eyes', and motivation, among
other things?
If you claim to teach self-defense, and fighting, shouldn't you
be teaching scenarios, and feedback?
What everyone seems to be talking about here are 'Attributes'.
What are the attributes that a successful 'fighter' has? Can we
offer the student the chance to train and practice these
attributes and choose/adapt the ones that most suit them?
One of the problems in studio karate as discussed is that
acquisition of the 'fighting' skills is different than the
exhibition of those skills.
Just as in long-distance running, the makeup is more than just
running a long distance. It's composed of stretching, and hill
training, and proper rest and nutrition, and tenacity, and
motivation. If you can run long distances, exhibit them in a
marathon. To train it, break it down, learn the attributes.
If you are teaching MA, you must adapt to the knowledge that
different folks 'learn' in different ways. Some like show and
tell, some like show and do, some like words, some like
imitation or technique.
Teach the students attributes through scenarios, and use good
feedback (Model Mugging) and you'll turn out better fighters
and self-defenders.
--
regards,
_____
BaDge
<ba...@virginia.edu>