Head butts part of karate ?
David Manise
I met a guy in my dojo that told me that head butts were part of the
"official" karate techniques just like everything else. I said "oh
really ? You sure ? What's the japanese name ?"...
The guy didn't know, wasn't sure, and therefore left my curiosity
unsatisfied.
I've never trained head butts with anyone. Besides, AFAIK, there are
no head butts in any shotokan kata...
Any hints ?
Thanks,
David
Bob McMahon
in that kata. In any case, it is generally assumed that when grabbed from
the rear, such as in Heian Sandan or Hangetsu, a rear head butt will be
applied as a distraction if possible.
Regards,
Bob McMahon
PS Mabuni Kenwa demonstrates a head butt in one of his earlier texts and it
looks like it comes from Kururunfa.
David Manise wrote in message
<6v0dqucc2q6ubepis...@4ax.com>...
kansas
"David Manise" <dmaniseremove-this...@club-internet.fr> wrote
in message news:6v0dqucc2q6ubepis...@4ax.com...
Probably not in modern shotokan kata. Abe said shotokan kata really haven't
changed much in the last 40 years, but went through great changes in the
preceding years.
http://www.shotokanworld.com/Abe.htm
There are headbutts to someone grabbing you from behind in goju.kata. I
really don't know about shorin kata.
David Manise
this).com.au> wrote:
>Kanazawa has introduced Nijuhachiho
Yup...
>(Nipaipo/Nepai) and there is a 'men ate'
>in that kata. In any case, it is generally assumed that when grabbed from
>the rear, such as in Heian Sandan or Hangetsu, a rear head butt will be
>applied as a distraction if possible.
Ok... Anything about "front" head butts ?
>PS Mabuni Kenwa demonstrates a head butt in one of his earlier texts and it
>looks like it comes from Kururunfa.
Mabuni Kenwa ? I don't know him... Who is he ?
Thanks,
David
Bob McMahon
David Manise wrote in message
>On Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:06:27 GMT, "Bob McMahon" <bob@aka (remove
>this).com.au> wrote:
>
>>Kanazawa has introduced Nijuhachiho
>
>Yup...
>
>>(Nipaipo/Nepai) and there is a 'men ate'
>>in that kata.
The head butt (men ate) in nijuhachiho is to the front and very obvious.
In any case, it is generally assumed that when grabbed from
>>the rear, such as in Heian Sandan or Hangetsu, a rear head butt will be
>>applied as a distraction if possible.
>
>Ok... Anything about "front" head butts ?
>
>>PS Mabuni Kenwa demonstrates a head butt in one of his earlier texts and
it
>>looks like it comes from Kururunfa.
>
>Mabuni Kenwa ? I don't know him... Who is he ?
Rob A.'s God : ) Founder of Shito Ryu.
Even in Unsu, the opening move where you part the clouds can be interpreted
as a release from a double wrist grab followed by a front head butt.
Regards,
Bob
David Manise
this).com.au> wrote:
>>Mabuni Kenwa ? I don't know him... Who is he ?
>
>Rob A.'s God : ) Founder of Shito Ryu.
LoL
>Even in Unsu, the opening move where you part the clouds can be interpreted
>as a release from a double wrist grab followed by a front head butt.
I agree for the wrist grab release, but I see no head butts there...
you mean the snake-like finger breaking snap that I feel so silly
doing ??? ;^)
David
Bob McMahon
David Manise wrote in message ...
Sorry for not being clearer, when the wrists are grabbed, you rotate them
outwards and then raise them to shoulder height, as you turn your hands over
and extend your arms, they are open to a knee strike, groin kick or a head
butt depending on your preference and the distance. The dropping snake-like
thingee can be used against a cross wrist grip to release a grip or apply a
nikkyo type wrist lock.
The 'cloud hand' move can also be used as a single arm extension (read
strike) if one is grabbed by the shirt front. Turn to the side, trap their
gripping hand and whack em in the temple, the snake-like thingy then becomes
an arm wrap, locking the elbow joint. I'm sure there are other
interpretations.. but poking eyeballs ain't the most sensible!
Regards,
bob
Steve
competition in Japan whereby one of the fighters used a head butt as a
technique against his opponent. The match was suspended, and from what I
recall after much deliberation the score/point was awarded as there was
nothing in the rules to say this was not allowed.
Steve
"David Manise" <dmaniseremove-this...@club-internet.fr> wrote
in message news:6v0dqucc2q6ubepis...@4ax.com...
David Manise
Yup, totally agreed.
Besides, most karateka -- while doing the "snake-like thingy" -- are
contracting the abs in order to have a good snap. This is derived
from the cat stance, which disallows raising the front leg to produce
downward power. This leads to an upper-body movement that really
looks like a head butt, too. A good old head butt coming from the
abs. In addition, the "snake-like thingy" (hell -- is there a name
for this ???) can be interpreted, this way, as pulling on the
opponent's arm in order to bring him closer to you for the head-butt.
For what comes to the stance placement, you know, the circle you draw
on the floor with your big toe, I like to interpret it as putting your
foot between the opponents legs, which, in very close fighting, is a
great strategic advantage : you protect yourself for groin strikes,
and take control of the bad guy's center of gravity a little bit more.
Cheers,
David
David Manise
wrote:
>I seem to remember a story which AFAIK is true, that there was an early
>competition in Japan whereby one of the fighters used a head butt as a
>technique against his opponent. The match was suspended, and from what I
>recall after much deliberation the score/point was awarded as there was
>nothing in the rules to say this was not allowed.
I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed... Any efficient and
well-controled technique is ok. I often used judo-like grabs and
throws, too. It's accepted as long as the fight does not end up like
a wrestling match...
David
George Winter
<dmaniseremove-this...@club-internet.fr> wrote:
>
>Ok... Anything about "front" head butts ?
What about Gojushiho Sho? Head butt's forward while fists move
backwards.
--
George
_____________________________________________________________________
George Winter gwi...@q-sys.com
Qsys Ltd.
Information Systems Consulting
David Manise
wrote:
>On Fri, 11 Oct 2002 19:10:08 +0200, David Manise
><dmaniseremove-this...@club-internet.fr> wrote:
>
>>
>>Ok... Anything about "front" head butts ?
>
>What about Gojushiho Sho? Head butt's forward while fists move
>backwards.
Yes. Right. Didn't think of this one.
David
alfred wallace
is karate like biting the neck...and other last chance "technique"
no training needed!
David Manise
Anything that hurt is karate... well... I wouldn't agree. Karate is
about developing your skills and body in order to make those things
that hurt more efficient.
No training needed ? Maybe not for biting the neck, but for what
comes to head butts, training is absolutely required.
After this discussion, I've tried head butting a bit, and discovered
that it's really not that obvious.
I tried at first on a heavy punching bag : don't do this ! It hurts
the neck and you get nothing from it. Then, I tried on a punching
glove... not quite a good feeling about it either.
To train head butts well, the best thing to use is another head, or
either another pretty hard, not too heavy thing. A basketball is
fine, for example.
The hardest thing is to strike with the good part of the your head...
on a softer part of the opponent's head...
David
MrBobNKY
of the moves where you spring forward into a craine stance can be a head butt,
but I can not answer for Shotokan. But moves are what you make them, if you
think a head butt can be used in a place, try it in one steps, or in a self
defense technique. that would be a good way to start.
Bob.
Mark Commons
movement of is a grab, headbutt and then release technique - sorry, don't
know if you guys study this kata.
Mark
"David Manise" <dmaniseremove-this...@club-internet.fr> wrote
in message news:6v0dqucc2q6ubepis...@4ax.com...
Roberto A. Alvelais
Peter Bromaghin
> After this discussion, I've tried head butting a bit, and discovered
> that it's really not that obvious.
>
> I tried at first on a heavy punching bag
> Then, I tried on a punching glove
> A basketball is fine, for example.
>
> The hardest thing is to strike with the good part of the your head...
> on a softer part of the opponent's head...
David, I would suggest that you really think before you try any more
of this. You are trying to practice using your braincase as a weapon.
It was not made for this purpose, and even hitting something as light
as a basketball could be dangerous. Your brain is sloshing around
inside your head, floating in a cusioning bath of salt water. When
you bang your head into something, the brain keeps going in that
direction and ends up bouncing off the inside of your skull. Damage
may be slight with each small blow, but it is both cumulative and
irreversable.
I doubt you would ever, except in the most desperate situation, try to
hit somebody with your computer.
David Manise
wrote:
>David, I would suggest that you really think before you try any more
>of this. You are trying to practice using your braincase as a weapon.
> It was not made for this purpose, and even hitting something as light
>as a basketball could be dangerous. Your brain is sloshing around
>inside your head, floating in a cusioning bath of salt water. When
>you bang your head into something, the brain keeps going in that
>direction and ends up bouncing off the inside of your skull. Damage
>may be slight with each small blow, but it is both cumulative and
>irreversable.
Arh come on... It really is not that obvious that doing suck things
is damageable, even slightly. Soccer players are doing it all the
time, without any problem.
Really, I think you're underestimating the brains resiliency, and it's
capacity to rewire itself very well when it loses a neuron or two...
David
Horace Pi
"David Manise" <dmaniseremove-this...@club-internet.fr> wrote
in message news:35g8ru47k6tn6imv7...@4ax.com...
David Manise
On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 18:40:03 -0000, "Horace Pi" <hora...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Simon Slavin
David Manise <dmaniseremove-this-death-to-spammers@club-interne wrote:
>Really, I think you're underestimating the brains resiliency, and it's
>capacity to rewire itself very well when it loses a neuron or two...
If you're headbutting hard enough to actually get to your
neurons, you're proabably in hospital as I type. You'd have
punctures the cerebral sack and would be leaking fluid into
your bloodstream or out of your nose or out of the wound.
Peter's description of skull biology is perfectly good: there
is a cushion between the brain and the skull. It's a leathery
bag full of an anti-slosh liquid containing all sorts of useful
molecules. It's a great method of protecting the brain but the
distance between brain and skull can be as small as an eighth
of an inch in some areas and this is not enough to protect you
from all impact. In cases of fast impact, your brain really
does get quite a bit of decelleration pretty quickly.
If you've ever banged your head on something you'll notice that
there's a period of a second or two where you can't quite work
out what's happening. That means that you disrupted enough of
the information-flow inside your brain that it had to wait a
while to get useful information back. Don't do this too often.
George Winter
<dmaniseremove-this...@club-internet.fr> wrote:
>Arh come on... It really is not that obvious that doing suck things
>is damageable, even slightly. Soccer players are doing it all the
>time, without any problem.
I think it is a problem, kids are starting to wear head protectors
(really) and I believe that the IQ of soccer players drops over the
years -- Of course I can't recall where I obtained this knowledge so
take it for what it's worth :)
David Manise
wrote:
>On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:04:54 +0200, David Manise
><dmaniseremove-this...@club-internet.fr> wrote:
>
>>Arh come on... It really is not that obvious that doing suck things
>>is damageable, even slightly. Soccer players are doing it all the
>>time, without any problem.
>
>I think it is a problem, kids are starting to wear head protectors
>(really) and I believe that the IQ of soccer players drops over the
>years -- Of course I can't recall where I obtained this knowledge so
>take it for what it's worth :)
Is it really coming from the impacts on the brain, or either is it a
result of the total lack of intellectual stimulation that they
experience... which comes alongside all the cash they get... ;^)
Is the IQ of untalented players dropping down as well ? :^)
Cheers,
David
matt barnes
> Is it really coming from the impacts on the brain, or either is it a
> result of the total lack of intellectual stimulation that they
> experience... which comes alongside all the cash they get... ;^)
>
> Is the IQ of untalented players dropping down as well ? :^)
>
> Cheers,
>
> David
It's hard to separate the effects of concussive/ subconcussive injuries
in the article. It includes heading the ball and running into other
people. There's another article on boxing and brain injury that refers
to 'footer's migraines', but the factor seems to be leather balls that
get heavier when they get wet, and the effect was seen as minimal. I
think the occasional headbut is safe, but 500 per day on the heavy bag
is probably counter productive from a quality of life perspective.
http://www.ama-assn.org/sci-pubs/sci-news/1999/snr0908.htm#jbr90197
Matt