do you really wanna know?
fin_fa...@webtv.net
Kempo and Karate, kata apps and how exactly the Shotokan people that
teach applications derived such knowledge as they possess from George
Dillman's seminar participants and former students both Shotokan style
and others, like Vince Morris, Chris Smaby, and DSI people like Rick
Moneymaker, all Dillman students, who all, including Dillman, knew
nothing whatever about this stuff before the year 1984, when my
teacher's teacher, Taika Oyata, opened up the window a little into
prewar kata bunkai for the masses.
Whoo, was there a flame war then. Mark Goetsch led the chage, and Elmar
Schmeisser, Shotokan applications demigod on here at the time, kept mum
till after I had wiped every attacker off the map with facts.
Several people came on here and corroborated my story, but they say a
picture is worth a thousand words, and I think a few words help as well.
Here is a link to a web age showing a photo of TaikaOyata, my teacher,
demonstrating kyusho assisted tuite on an agonized Geroge Dillman, who
later taught whatever he could to the others I mentioned and more.Here
is Dillman's 1984 testimonial.Here is a look at real karate, an
application out of Okinawan kata.
You may not be able to figure out which one exactly by looking as its
not an obvious app and its out of Okinawan Kempo kata, but I assure you
it is from a kata that is also done in Shotokan.
Have a look at a true Master of Okinawan Karate puttin' the hurts on a
couple guys including Dillman, seventh dan at the time , and check the
expression on his face. Also notice the buckling knees.
The other guy is getting the knee buckled as well.
Life is sweet.
fin_fa...@webtv.net
who gets his legitimately from Shito Ryu, Chinese and Oshro sources,
among others and didn't make any claim except the one I did, to have
thus learned them) that claim to have come up with all this on your own(
what BS- either you learned them from this 'lineage' or you learned from
another OKINAWAN OR CHINESE LINE), or you are copying others who did,and
who claim to have learnt these techniques from 'Secret Scrolls ' given
by Hohan Soken, and you know who you are, there's your guy who taught
you, and there is his 'Secret Scroll', a man named Seiyu Oyata, Tenth
Dan and real as it gets.
Rest of you come clean.None of you others learned any of this stuff
before this seminar happened in 1984, at which our own Jake Newman may
have been present, or at a seminar shortly after this.
This shows Dillman Sensei getting his first look at what it was all
about.
'Secret Scrolls', hey?
Hey, Ozebob, you seein' this?Here's where it started, Man- go direct to
the source.You can share this on you know where with you know who.:-).
I been looking for this picture for Years-I remember when it first came
out, and I though, heck, now everyone is gonna be a Kempo Master.:-)
Sure enough, they are, too.'I alone with twelve other men, who I cannot
name , was shown the secrets in secret scrolls, by Hohan Soken,said Mr.
Dillman> Later Vnce Morris and Mr. Smaby made the same claim. Or so I
hear from the latter, I know Mr. Morris , founder of Kissaki-Kai, did.
I saw the secret scroll;it was nothing but a chart of some kyusho with
no explanations.Funakoshi's in Kyohan, given him by Ohtsuka, was
better.Whether Hohan Soken gave the chart or not, that is Not where
anyone learned kata apps, though Soken Sensei knew some, for sure.
All the Okinawan masters got their apps.
Only in Shito Ryu as far as I know, were the apps made actually part of
a written type curriculum, publicly, and long ago.
Different styles taught apps to different people but kept them secret
within style.Sometimes even students of a style never got to see them.
Taika Oyata opened up Pandora's Box when he actually opened up the real
thing to all styles.It is true that at the same time Dr. Yang,
Jwing-Ming was doing the same with chin na, the apps from Kung fu forms.
But Dillman took off and popularized his version of these, and went
world wide with them,after a few seminars.
Then some of his students( Morris, Smaby, et al.) made similar claims
and went to do reverse engineering with Shotokan and other styles,,and
then some of their students taught other people, including Elmar
Schmeisser ,some things about how to do this stuff.Some.But not
all.Bruce Miller, I don't know wherhis comes from, but I don't think his
was before 1984 either, and neither was Erle Montaignes.That last was
also supposed to have been through Dillman, but Montaigne attacks
Dillman now.So however do some of his other students, and such is life.
And others now, popup out of the woodwork at such an alarming rate that
someone actually accused me of jumping on the bandwagon as a Johnny come
lately.I told them, no, I'm just an old Okinawan Kempo practitioner,
from the Okinawan lineages.My teacher is an older one and was for a time
a student of Taika Oyata, who actually was a member of that style and
ranked in it.He passed to me, some of what he himself as taught, as I
was his student in turn.
It is dishonest for people to then claim that they either got these from
secret scrolls( purchased at the Secret Scroll Shop no doubt:-) or from
someone else that didn't know 'em before 1984.
This is to clear this up, I am not officially representing anyone here,
I am speaking on my own, but this is the truth and the truth needs told.
So, Children, what if anything , have we learned today about telling
lies?
Not that I am accusing anyone of being disingenuous.:-) No.:-)
Again, here is the proof.
Bob McMahon
On Tue, 5 Jun 2001 05:23:45 -0500 (EST), fin_fa...@webtv.net
wrote:
>
>Hey, Ozebob, you seein' this?Here's where it started, Man- go direct to
>the source.You can share this on you know where with you know who.:-).
I have a Black Belt magazine with similar information in it John. We
have had the proof of that for a while so I could have provided a
reference for you sooner. Sorry!
>
>I been looking for this picture for Years-I remember when it first came
>out, and I though, heck, now everyone is gonna be a Kempo Master.:-)
>
>Sure enough, they are, too.'I alone with twelve other men, who I cannot
>name , was shown the secrets in secret scrolls, by Hohan Soken,said Mr.
>Dillman> Later Vnce Morris and Mr. Smaby made the same claim. Or so I
>hear from the latter, I know Mr. Morris , founder of Kissaki-Kai, did.
Vince Morris never made that claim to me and I brought him out to
Australia twice, with the support of others of course. He stated that
he spent a weekend of intensive study plus seminars with George. He
had ideas of his own and Harada from Shotokai had shown him some
paralysing techniques well before that. However, he credited Dillman
with opening his eyes to the potential of the moves in kata.. no false
claims that I am aware of with Vince. Nice fella, good karateka!
>
>I saw the secret scroll;it was nothing but a chart of some kyusho with
>no explanations.Funakoshi's in Kyohan, given him by Ohtsuka, was
>better.Whether Hohan Soken gave the chart or not, that is Not where
>anyone learned kata apps, though Soken Sensei knew some, for sure.
>
>All the Okinawan masters got their apps.
>
>Only in Shito Ryu as far as I know, were the apps made actually part of
>a written type curriculum, publicly, and long ago.
I have that document as well.. the applications indeed show grappling
moves but are not shown to any great depth.
>
>Different styles taught apps to different people but kept them secret
>within style.Sometimes even students of a style never got to see them.
There is the matter of 'kuden'. The oral transmission of kata that is
very rare today because the modern masters cannot teach what they have
not been shown. Even on Okinawa there are few teachers that have had
access to the 'inner circle'. AFAIK.
>
>Taika Oyata opened up Pandora's Box when he actually opened up the real
>thing to all styles.It is true that at the same time Dr. Yang,
>Jwing-Ming was doing the same with chin na, the apps from Kung fu forms.
A lot of people have read their books and other books and claim a
knowledge based on the written word or videos. I'm not saying that
you cannot learn from these sources, certainly I have learned things
that way. However, in order to 'know', you need the oral transmission
to supplement what is not shown in commercial training aids.
>
>But Dillman took off and popularized his version of these, and went
>world wide with them,after a few seminars.
>
>Then some of his students( Morris, Smaby, et al.) made similar claims
>and went to do reverse engineering with Shotokan and other styles,,and
>then some of their students taught other people, including Elmar
>Schmeisser ,some things about how to do this stuff.Some.But not
>all.Bruce Miller, I don't know wherhis comes from, but I don't think his
>was before 1984 either, and neither was Erle Montaignes.That last was
>also supposed to have been through Dillman, but Montaigne attacks
>Dillman now.So however do some of his other students, and such is life.
Earle Montaigue went to a Dillman seminar here in Australia and wrote
a less than flattering report on what he saw there. They have been as
cat and dog since that time.
>
>And others now, popup out of the woodwork at such an alarming rate that
>someone actually accused me of jumping on the bandwagon as a Johnny come
>lately.I told them, no, I'm just an old Okinawan Kempo practitioner,
>from the Okinawan lineages.My teacher is an older one and was for a time
>a student of Taika Oyata, who actually was a member of that style and
>ranked in it.He passed to me, some of what he himself as taught, as I
>was his student in turn.
Well you obviously have the certification to prove it, and have
demonstrated that knowledge on this and other forums for a number of
years now. I do see more names popping up all the time and one that
has been targetted in the past is Patrick McCarthy. His research has
enabled him to gather many pieces of the puzzle and educate a whole
generation of karateka as to the purpose of the kata.
>
>It is dishonest for people to then claim that they either got these from
>secret scrolls( purchased at the Secret Scroll Shop no doubt:-) or from
>someone else that didn't know 'em before 1984.
>
>This is to clear this up, I am not officially representing anyone here,
>I am speaking on my own, but this is the truth and the truth needs told.
>
>So, Children, what if anything , have we learned today about telling
>lies?
>
>Not that I am accusing anyone of being disingenuous.:-) No.:-)
>
>Again, here is the proof.
>
>http://geocities.com/vandeelen/Pukulan/oyata.htm
>
Fair enough John..
Cheers,
Bob
Shawn Jefferson
wrote:
>You may not be able to figure out which one exactly by looking as its
>not an obvious app and its out of Okinawan Kempo kata, but I assure you
>it is from a kata that is also done in Shotokan.
It looks almost like something out of Tekki Sandan, but probably
isn't. Also reminds me of some of the chin-na locks. We've been
practicing a select few of them and I've actually said, "That
shouldn't hurt (but does), someone do it to me."
You mention kyusho.. Is he actually attacking some pressure points
with the lock? It looks like just a fancy wrist lock.
--
Shawn Jefferson
sjeffers{_at_}home[_dot_]com
Peter Bromaghin
>
> 'Secret Scrolls', hey?
>
> Sure enough, they are, too.'I alone with twelve other men, who I cannot
> name , was shown the secrets in secret scrolls, by Hohan Soken,said Mr.
> Dillman> Later Vnce Morris and Mr. Smaby made the same claim. Or so I
> hear from the latter, I know Mr. Morris , founder of Kissaki-Kai, did.
Yes, Smaby was there. But...
> I saw the secret scroll;it was nothing but a chart of some kyusho with
> no explanations.Funakoshi's in Kyohan, given him by Ohtsuka, was
> better.Whether Hohan Soken gave the chart or not, that is Not where
> anyone learned kata apps, though Soken Sensei knew some, for sure.
According to Dave in Minnesota, who is a good friend of Smaby, all the
attendees got a scroll with Oyata's lineage and history - no mention
of any deep information. Only Dillman's bacame "secret".
> It is true that at the same time Dr. Yang,
> Jwing-Ming was doing the same with chin na, the apps from Kung fu forms.
Smaby has attended and learned a lot from Dr. Yang, too.
> Then some of his students( Morris, Smaby, et al.) made similar claims
> and went to do reverse engineering with Shotokan and other styles,,and
> then some of their students taught other people, including Elmar
> Schmeisser ,some things about how to do this stuff.Some.
I know of no claims made by Smaby, except that in his intense interest
in kata apps he has learned from a lot of different people,
incorporating their ideas along with his own to do his own brand of
reverse engineering. He freely credits anybody who has helped him -
even in his 5th dan paper.
> It is dishonest for people to then claim that they either got these from
> secret scrolls( purchased at the Secret Scroll Shop no doubt:-) or from
> someone else that didn't know 'em before 1984.
How big is this paintbrush?
> http://geocities.com/vandeelen/Pukulan/oyata.htm
Thanks for the good URL, forget about my other post.
ShadowJack
"Shawn Jefferson" <sjef...@home.com> wrote in message
news:bfvphtct97beer9f6...@4ax.com...
Hi Shawn,
Probably Naihanchi Shodan, you can see something similar
in Nathan Johnson's " Zen Shaolin Karate" Page 142 - 143,
Not sure I agree to Johnson's "Happy clappy" Idea on the
Naihanchi series just a two man exercise in meditation and
partner work.
In fact just this afternoon I was watching one of Morris's videos,
and in it there was a short segment on Tekki Shodan, with absolutely
brutal Bunkai, IE from yoi, Nikkyo - to knee smash to chin, Empi to
the neck, neck wrench followed by hair pull to position head and Kagi Tsuki
to throat.
I've gotta say the Tekki series have now become a firm favourite with
me now.
I wrote John several month's back now about some of Dillman's tapes
and he recommended Oyata's stuff instead, not one to be cynical ( Sorry John
:-))
I've spoken to several friends first, that have seen the Oyata tapes and
they all
say they're dynamite, esp his early stuff.
I ordered the Naihanchi Shodan and Nidan tapes about three weeks ago ( still
haven't
got them yet, the're in transit.) So I can't give you a critical view yet.
Another good book is Martinez's "Naihanchi" and I believe his writing a book
on
Tuite at present, I know he does Isshinryu, but there's some good stuff
amongst his books.
Regards Jack.
Jake
wrote:
>Rest of you come clean.None of you others learned any of this stuff
>before this seminar happened in 1984, at which our own Jake Newman may
>have been present, or at a seminar shortly after this.
In January of that year. And it's Newton. Jake Newton. Don't you
ferget it. :-)
-Jake
Jake
wrote:
>Earle Montaigue went to a Dillman seminar here in Australia and wrote
>a less than flattering report on what he saw there.
Whan I was at the Oyata/Dillman seminar in '84, Dillman did not
impress me, but Oyata was pretty real. After they had broken away for
a while, a freind of mine claims to have heard Oyata say that Dillman
"wasn't teaching the stuff right" or words to that effect.
>They have been as
>cat and dog since that time.
Dillman seems to have had fallings out left and right in that age.
-Jake
Jake
<sjef...@home.com> wrote:
>You mention kyusho.. Is he actually attacking some pressure points
>with the lock? It looks like just a fancy wrist lock.
There appears to be a potential pressure point application with
Oyata's left elbow against Dillman's inside upper arm, near the elbow.
I was shown a few similar but not the same techniques involving hands
on the wris and elbow on the pressure point. The idea is to stretch
out the nerve than hit the PP. Or something like that.
-Jake
fin_fa...@webtv.net
probably isn't.'
A case can be made for all bunkai being found in Tekki Shidan,thus also
in Nidan and /or Sandan, but the obvious place the app is from can be
also Kusanku Dai or Pinan Shodan/Heian Nidan, a Shorin version, where
you turn with arms crossed ( in Shorin exactly in the position he is in)
and throw a front kick to the rear( which he is doing.)
'Also reminds me of some of the chin na locks.'
As well it should, since the Okinawan tuite and also the japanese torite
originally come from Chinese chin na locks, found within the forms
ancestral to Okinawan and thus Japanese karate.
'I've actually said, 'that shouldn't hurt, but does, someone do it to
me.'
Yes, they Look like they shouldn't hurt, but as you surmise, more is
happening there than meets the eye.Nerves and such are being accessed
though points, stretching, and pressure and twisting, compressing and
torquing, as well as direct attack to points that is invisible because
inside the moves.Ie use of body mechanics, you cannot see the weight of
the entire body being dropped onto the wrist through certain motions.
'You mention kyusho-is he actually attacking some pressure points with
the lock?'
George Dillman was a the time of that photo, a legitmate seventh dan in
Issinryu kaate. He was a powerful karateka and not a wuss.Give the man
that.He was no crybaby. His facial expression there is spomntaneous and
real.It says it all.:-)
But to answer your wquestion-yes, he is attacking kyusho with the
wristlock and with the front kick as well, collapsing the other
assailants leg.He dd not pose that short, that was real. My teacher who
learned from him, did the same to me and dropped me repeatedly to the
floor in agony.In all modesty as I said to several on here, I can do
similar things.Not as well as those two, but noticeably effective.
All tuite attacks kyusho.Not all chin na does, but a lot does and it all
can if you work it that way.Chinese are very pragmatic and almost jaded
with self defense. Whatever wokrks however it works is fine.
Okinawans were a people and who were about their business, and wanted no
trouble or interferences , and their martial arts are designed to put a
stop quickly and painfully to any attacker in under a second max.
'It looks like just a fancy wrist lock.'
Ti Chi Ki, as the Okinawans say. The eyes must see what the hands do.
Remember the thread I started about Okinawan footwork?
Look at the weight distribution of his stance and the position of his
feet.Okinawans say you learn karate with the feet, not the hands. Same
with Taiji, too.Also in Aiki arts.
You need to look carefully at that photo, ee whare both his hands are,
see where his feet are, see where the kick he throws is hitting, see why
Dillman is going down on his knees with his face forward and throat
exposed and his other hand shooting out helplessly to his left side.
You need to see how Taika Oyata is poised to strike and kill either or
both assailants from a position they can not defend.
You need to see how he is protecting himself at all times from attack by
eirther opponent.
Because he is.That is why his karate is so advanced.You see it and
believe me wyou would feel it because I felt it fronm one of his
students and people feeel it when I do it, but you would be hard put to
understand it without knowing the principles, some of which are style
specific and some of which are not.
Also that is not merely a wristlock, but a compression lock of the
wrist,and of the elbow as well, with pressure directed towards kyusho
and weight being applied to the weak points in the joints, and what
cannot be seen in the photo is how fast the whole thing is done.
fin_fa...@webtv.net
Big enough to paint anyone claiming they knew tuite and kyusho jutsu,
outside of Okijnawa, China or Japan,except those who learned it or
similar things as part of their lineage training, before 1984, or that
their knowledge would have come from any source, lineage excepted, save
either through Oyata Sensei or Dillman ir his people.
Simply because, I was there( in karate)) at the time, and no one was
teaching this stuff, except that in Okinawan styles( of which I had
firsthand experience) it was known that it existed and some was passed
on to me.
And to others.As witness, Rob Alvelais learned some through his
teachers.
But it cannot be denied, Taika Oyata opened up a whole new world when he
did this, and also Yang Jwing-Ming did so too.
At about the same time.
Before this, it was known about, and some knew some, and it was
discussed by a few, after this, everyone wanted it, everyone knew it,
everyone was a master of it:-), as witness now.
My point here is the truth.Karate people owe their interest in and
knowledge of bunkai almost enirely to one man, Taika Oyata.Kung Fu and
Taiji people can thank Dr. Yang.
Others have since come forwards with their art's own version of inner
techniques, but these men started, in karate and kung fu, respectively,
the ball rolling.
Right now in the Aikido world, great prestige attaches to anyone who
knows or claims to know, Daito Ryu Aikijiujitsu. The problem is,
apprently very few do.
Many today claim to be masters of bunkai, but I fear more are only
masters of Bunk.
Now Dillan, Morris, Smaby et al., and Montague, have all learned quite a
bit,but as to what they were actually shown, well, let's just say, there
is more to the picture than people think.
What do I know about it?Well, some may saya little, others, not much,
me, I say, just enough to know when someone is conning people abut how
much they know, thus the picture and article.
There may be more to come.
Also, if any inaccuracies have unknowingly been perpetrated by me, they
shall be corrected.I can't go into details and don't wish to seem
mysterious, but suffice to say that whatever I have said concerning this
stuff that may turn out to be inaccurate , hopefully will be corrected
soon.
By me but from what one may say would be an impeccable source.
John
fin_fa...@webtv.net
'I could have provided a reference for you sooner. Sorry!'
Bob, you do not dissapoint. Have you the photo of our man getting the
two finger nerve scissor ko from Taika Oyata?And that and other
articles? can you put on line?
Not only myself but some other people would love to have these.
I read 'em when they came out, but didn't buy them because didn't need
to.
Or so I though. Now that matters stand the way they do, it is really
important that this information is available.
Too many people bought into what was not actually the case, to put it
mildly.:-)
I too heard the claim from Vince, in an ad he had for his videos.I don't
have the ad, and maybe he didn't write it.But someone did.I also hear he
is a good fellow and excellent karateka and also is a Law Enforcement
and military Hand to Hand instructor, and have seen his pics, and he's
quite big and strong, as well.:-)
'Harada from Shotokai'
Oh, he knew some stuff, he did.. those guys got more of the old stuff
from Funakoshi, with Egami and Obata and Ohtsuka and some others, than
the later ones did, I think.
'the applications indeed show grappling moves but they are not shown to
any great depth...'
Different doc, then the DSI website shows the one originally claimed, ts
a crudely drawn several page kyusho chart as I recall.Bubishi is much
better.So are the grappling apps and hints.
'kuden..'
Ahm yes. Indeed.It does exist, allright.And those who receive any
sometimes do not know for years that they received anything unusual.Only
contact with other martial artists sjow that to be the case, and often
the others do not believe them.Because they were not told.But it
happens.In some arts, it happens often, in some, less often, in some,
almost but not quite not at all. It's that almost that made for instance
the Shotokai old boys seem oddballs. Really, they had a lot of the
straight of it.
Then there ws Jigoro Kano's approach, he wrote it all down, and there
are no kuden in Judo. Thus the effectiveness of the art lies within the
grasp of anyone willing to progress through the curriculum.
Whereas the effectiveness of karateka varies not only according to their
proficiency but to their access to the knowledge that many feel doesn't
exist, many claim but do not possess, and some possess and do not claim.
Others posses, claim and teach it and thank Heaven for them.We would
otherwise have had but a shell of a once great art.
'A lot of people have read their books and other books and claim a
knowledge based on their books and videos."
The majority of claimants are indedd in this category, and perhaps have
done some seminar work too.These have the skin of the pig, only, as the
Okinawans say.Or the feathers of the crane, as some pretenders also
say.Been to Dento No Hane lately?:-)
'Even on Okinawan there are few teachers that have had access to the
Inner Circle.Afaik.'
Well, it might be more prpoer to say there are many who claim to be
teachers there, who aren't, and so have not.Most real masters of the
arts there, are certainly involved with some of the applciations
knowledge comon to all styles.Eac also as their own, but there Is an all
Okinawan organization, and the masters do alll train together, so
secrets among them would tend to be rather quickly revealed.This by what
m tteacher told me of the sessions he participated in and those he
witnessed.
'However, in order to 'know', you need the oral transmission that is not
shown in commercial training aids.'
Bob, you need more than that.Kuden is oral keys.Hands on is physical
keys, and some things can be truly learned only by experiencing them,
and being corrected by hand.And you beed one mpore thing besides that.
You need a foundationn in doing the techniques of an art whch has thse
teachings, of at least ten and as much as twenty years.
When I see the hotos and videos of some who went to seminars and then
claimed to be masters, I laugh out loud because they do not know how to
move right.
Nagamine's Shorin ryu books show only half the kata, that is they show
only the beginning and end moves in the kata, and also they do not show
the power delivery system of Shorin ryu or the drills that are necessary
to master this.
Taika Oyata's videos do not show basic Kenpo, nor how to achieve
corrrect body mechanics, nor do they show exactly how some things are
really done.
In both cases, white belts in these arts learn more than seminar
participants or video viewers or book readers.
So you need three things they don't getZ:'Basic and Foundation training,
though Yang Jwing-Ming alone does show this.You need hands on
instruction, and this you can get some of from seminars, but without the
basic founfdation of the art, it isn't nearly enough; and finally, the
kuden.What I call Lore.
It is impossible to get all of these any time fast.
If you trained basics well in an art that has these, then the hands on
can be given relatively quickly, and so can the kuden.
But it then requires some time, not under a year minimum, to unravel
this.Maybe much longer.
Some style's or arts rather, kuden have been written down, but only
maybe in one place each.
Tai Chi's has, but only by one person, Cheng, Man-Ching..
Dr. Yang has transitted some Kungfu kuden so to speak, but mostly the
written Classics, which are not the same thing, they are fundamentals.
Karate's really,have not.There is a reason for this.
Do you know how to tell who has received any and who hasn't?
You mention Patrick McCarthy.he originally had some knowledge of Karate,
but after he went over there and had the great good fortune to have met
and trained and conversed and researched with Senseis Nagamine, Hukama,
and many others, including Hiroshi Kinjo, his knowledge greatly
increased, as whose would not?
Also going to China didn't hurt.
So, I cannot include Mr.McCarthy as a Johnny Jump Up come laely, since
he met thos folks and so on, he hasn't so far as I know, met Oyata,
though, he might want to do that sometime.
Might get more material to research.
Thewre was an earlier work by him, didn't include any bunkai, called
Clasical kata of Okinawan Karate, of which I and some others were
critical.This was way pre-Bubishi.It was none too good, imo.
Had one kata in it that i wondered if it was even real, named Wanduan.
This work may have been the cause of the criticism of McCarthy-San which
did occur.
But everyone can make mistakes,we all have done.
Mr, McCarthy however, has commented upon the type of person whom I have
in mind, and at least once by name. I refer to a certain Australian Kung
Fu Master who claims to be Eigth Dan Hanshi in an Okinawan style of
Hakutsuruken,a man of enormous ego according to Pat's own
comment,whowent to Okinawan for maybe a week and studied from oen of the
phony teacher's, and thenwas named a Master of an art that, until that
moment, had never existed.
Had a few exchanges with this man on other forums and he left
screaming.He liked to attack legitimate Okinawan masters who had passed
away, and I didn't like that too well.
Now, everone has bad days, I grant youand if you saw a photo of me in a
martial arts posture, or some such, you might think whatever you might
think, but you would not think I didn't know where to hold my arms or my
hands, or didn't know how to balance in a horse stance, say.
My word of course. But when I saw the photos of this man he put up on
the web, I was embarrassed for him and so were others.He could noyt
stand in horse stance, his armpit was open to attack and his hands were
missing the points he said he was hitting.
It was awful.
Now even though before I came to the Net, I had never( no offense) heard
your name, Bob, I saw your pictures executing kata and what not, staff
and so on,and when I saw them I said,okay, he is a Shotokan stylist.
While my own shotokan will never set the world aflame, it too would be
recognizable as a Shotokan derivative.
My Kenpo is recognizable by all Okinawan Kenpo people, as theirs is to
me, buy certain unique characteristics possessed by those who train in
that art, and my Shorin ryu is also recognizable, as anyone else's is to
me.
In one move, it is easy to tell if a person has had training , and even
sometimes, how much.
One punch from a skilled shorin practitioner, for instance, shows the
signature of that style.There will be a snap even from a bare arm, and a
very fast output and withdrawal of the punch except under certain
conditions.
No one training fron a book or video can fake it, you ve to have been
taught, shown and told.
Unfortunately this Crane man, has no skillls worth mentioning.
But he has occasionally taken in many people.Makes a person wonder
what's gonin' on sometimes, if you know what I mean.
'Pat McCarthy.. educate a whole generation of karateka as to the prupose
of the kata.'
Maybe, but mine came from my teachers, Tom Newland, and Richard Burch,
of Okinawan Kenpo karate-Do/Ryukyu Kempo, and Richard Burch of
Matsubayashi Ryu, and it is to them both that I am grateful for showing
me the secrets of kata, and maybe more importantly, how to do kata and
karate right.
Yes, I am using both their names on here, and for a reason,so that no
one can ever say that I claimed any knowledge from someone I never knew
or studied with, like Taika Oyata or Shoshin Nagamine.
Neither too, will anyone think I learnt from books and videos only.
Yes, I do have some of both, everyone does. Some are even good ones.
'Well you obviously have the certification to prove it,and have
demonstrated that knowledge on this and other forums for a number of
years now."
Oh, well, there's certification of course, in various arts and orgs, and
then there are arts in which I have no rank whatever or a rather humble
one, but have practiced for decades.
But the knowledge is real and comes in large part from the two men above
named.
I never was one for seeking rank as such, it was mostly given me after a
long time practicing, and I am happier about that.
One, my highest, was given me for doing an organization a good turn and
helping train one of their men up to Black , for them.
Others were earned with years of blood, sweat, toil and tears.
Mostly I wanted to know the truth of martial arts and to have the
ability to demonstrate that truth if need be.
Tall order to be sure.:-)
As to how much of it I actually have, that's all relative.
In a general sense, just about enough to know when someone is conning
us,or claiming to be or have what they are or do not.
I am certainly not the best of the best, but it is my fortune to have
studied with students of some of them, and that's about all I claim, to
have been very lucky or blessed in my teachers.And they in theirs.
There are the knowledges which you refer to as kuden, by which a person
otherwise not greatly skilled beyond most normal mortals who trained
long and correctly,that render that one capable of doing, under proper
circumstances, that which h otherwise could never be expected to do.
It was my fortune, to on several memorable periods of my life, beeen
associated with several people and notably those two, who were able to
help me in such ways.To some degree.
The kuden you refer to are orally transmitted 'keys' which when applied,
unlock many mysteries of kata and karate.
The actiual instruction makes one able to use them, and the
demonstration and experience of them, serves as proof positive, maki9ng
ones faith in the techniques and priciples, little less than absolute,
which in turn renders them even more effective than they might otherwise
be.
And now I have said almost too much about this.
But there is it.
'Fair Enough John
Cheers
Bob"
And to you as well, Bob
John
Bob McMahon
wrote:
>Not only myself but some other people would love to have these.
>
>I read 'em when they came out, but didn't buy them because didn't need
>to.
>
>Or so I though. Now that matters stand the way they do, it is really
>important that this information is available.
>
>Too many people bought into what was not actually the case, to put it
>mildly.:-)
I have spent an hour or so today but haven't located the article. It
was a small part of Black Belt 'times' section. Ireports on the first
seminar that George Dillman attended with Oyata.. I'll keep looking!
>
>I too heard the claim from Vince, in an ad he had for his videos.I don't
>have the ad, and maybe he didn't write it.But someone did.I also hear he
>is a good fellow and excellent karateka and also is a Law Enforcement
>and military Hand to Hand instructor, and have seen his pics, and he's
>quite big and strong, as well.:-)
>
I only know my experience..
>'Harada from Shotokai'
>
>Oh, he knew some stuff, he did.. those guys got more of the old stuff
>from Funakoshi, with Egami and Obata and Ohtsuka and some others, than
>the later ones did, I think.
>
I wonder how much came from Ohtsuka?
>'the applications indeed show grappling moves but they are not shown to
>any great depth...'
>
>Different doc, then the DSI website shows the one originally claimed, ts
>a crudely drawn several page kyusho chart as I recall.Bubishi is much
>better.So are the grappling apps and hints.
>
I have that one.. and one other!
>'kuden..'
>
>Ahm yes. Indeed.It does exist, (snip)
>
>Whereas the effectiveness of karateka varies not only according to their
>proficiency but to their access to the knowledge that many feel doesn't
>exist, many claim but do not possess, and some possess and do not claim.
>
>Others posses, claim and teach it and thank Heaven for them.We would
>otherwise have had but a shell of a once great art.
Agreed.
>
>'A lot of people have read their books and other books and claim a
>knowledge based on their books and videos."
>
>The majority of claimants are indedd in this category, and perhaps have
>done some seminar work too.These have the skin of the pig, only, as the
>Okinawans say.Or the feathers of the crane, as some pretenders also
>say.Been to Dento No Hane lately?:-)
I think the majority are a well. Nothing wrong with that as long as
you admit it and give credit where credit is due. Not lately!
>
>'Even on Okinawan there are few teachers that have had access to the
>Inner Circle.Afaik.'
>
>Well, it might be more prpoer to say there are many who claim to be
>teachers there, who aren't, and so have not.
Fair enough!
>'However, in order to 'know', you need the oral transmission that is not
>shown in commercial training aids.'
>
>Bob, you need more than that.Kuden is oral keys.Hands on is physical
>keys, and some things can be truly learned only by experiencing them,
>and being corrected by hand.And you beed one mpore thing besides that.
>You need a foundationn in doing the techniques of an art whch has thse
>teachings, of at least ten and as much as twenty years.
I do hope you did not seriously believe that I was suggesting
otherwise : )
>
>When I see the hotos and videos of some who went to seminars and then
>claimed to be masters, I laugh out loud because they do not know how to
>move right.
I'm not sure of who you mean..
>
>Nagamine's Shorin ryu books show only half the kata, that is they show
>only the beginning and end moves in the kata, and also they do not show
>the power delivery system of Shorin ryu or the drills that are necessary
>to master this.
Nagamine's book was only intended as a reference, was it not?
>
>Taika Oyata's videos do not show basic Kenpo, nor how to achieve
>corrrect body mechanics, nor do they show exactly how some things are
>really done.
There is nothing like training with the source itself.
>
>In both cases, white belts in these arts learn more than seminar
>participants or video viewers or book readers.
>
I don't think so.. experienced people can learn a lot from good videos
and books. White belts don't have the base to understand what is even
going on! IMO.
>So you need three things they don't getZ:'Basic and Foundation training,
>though Yang Jwing-Ming alone does show this.You need hands on
>instruction, and this you can get some of from seminars, but without the
>basic founfdation of the art, it isn't nearly enough; and finally, the
>kuden.What I call Lore.
Of course!
>
>It is impossible to get all of these any time fast.
Not when the teacher lives near you :)
>
>If you trained basics well in an art that has these, then the hands on
>can be given relatively quickly, and so can the kuden.
>
>But it then requires some time, not under a year minimum, to unravel
>this.Maybe much longer.
You can't put a time limit on how quick or slow someone can learn
John!
>
>Some style's or arts rather, kuden have been written down, but only
>maybe in one place each.
Yes, I have found bits and pieces in various places.
>
>
>Do you know how to tell who has received any and who hasn't?
I am often suspicious of various characters but my emphasis is on
increasing my own knowledge.
>
>You mention Patrick McCarthy.he originally had some knowledge of Karate,
>but after he went over there and had the great good fortune to have met
>and trained and conversed and researched with Senseis Nagamine, Hukama,
>and many others, including Hiroshi Kinjo, his knowledge greatly
>increased, as whose would not?
>
>Also going to China didn't hurt.
>
>So, I cannot include Mr.McCarthy as a Johnny Jump Up come laely, since
>he met thos folks and so on, he hasn't so far as I know, met Oyata,
>though, he might want to do that sometime.
>
>Might get more material to research.
I was lucky to have been able to train regularly with Patrick for some
3 years. We bacame close firends. I have trained and spoken with
Kinjo Hiroshi as well and had access to much of Patrick's resources.
He has 16 versions of the Bubishi for example.
>
>Thewre was an earlier work by him, didn't include any bunkai, called
>Clasical kata of Okinawan Karate, of which I and some others were
>critical.This was way pre-Bubishi.It was none too good, imo.
>
>Had one kata in it that i wondered if it was even real, named Wanduan.
>
>This work may have been the cause of the criticism of McCarthy-San which
>did occur.
Well you know what they say about critics : )
>Mr, McCarthy however, has commented upon the type of person whom I have
>in mind, and at least once by name. I refer to a certain Australian Kung
>Fu Master who claims to be Eigth Dan Hanshi in an Okinawan style of
>Hakutsuruken,a man of enormous ego according to Pat's own
>comment,whowent to Okinawan for maybe a week and studied from oen of the
>phony teacher's, and thenwas named a Master of an art that, until that
>moment, had never existed.
>
>Had a few exchanges with this man on other forums and he left
>screaming.He liked to attack legitimate Okinawan masters who had passed
>away, and I didn't like that too well.
>
I know the man.
>Now even though before I came to the Net, I had never( no offense) heard
>your name, Bob, I saw your pictures executing kata and what not, staff
>and so on,and when I saw them I said,okay, he is a Shotokan stylist.
>
I wouldn't have expected you to know of me : )
>While my own shotokan will never set the world aflame, it too would be
>recognizable as a Shotokan derivative.
>
Mine neither, but my forte is teaching these days, not performing!
>'Pat McCarthy.. educate a whole generation of karateka as to the prupose
>of the kata.'
>
>Maybe,
Not maybe, fact.
but mine came from my teachers, Tom Newland, and Richard Burch,
>of Okinawan Kenpo karate-Do/Ryukyu Kempo, and Richard Burch of
>Matsubayashi Ryu, and it is to them both that I am grateful for showing
>me the secrets of kata, and maybe more importantly, how to do kata and
>karate right.
>
>Yes, I am using both their names on here, and for a reason,so that no
>one can ever say that I claimed any knowledge from someone I never knew
>or studied with, like Taika Oyata or Shoshin Nagamine.
>
>Neither too, will anyone think I learnt from books and videos only.
>
>Yes, I do have some of both, everyone does. Some are even good ones.
>
Well, in the modern era, only a fool would not take advantage of the
technology. However, one has to have a good, sound foundation or one
is stuffed : )
>'Well you obviously have the certification to prove it,and have
>demonstrated that knowledge on this and other forums for a number of
>years now."
>
>Mostly I wanted to know the truth of martial arts and to have the
>ability to demonstrate that truth if need be.
>
>Tall order to be sure.:-)
Same reasons here : )
>
>As to how much of it I actually have, that's all relative.
>
>In a general sense, just about enough to know when someone is conning
>us,or claiming to be or have what they are or do not.
Me too..
>
>I am certainly not the best of the best, but it is my fortune to have
>studied with students of some of them, and that's about all I claim, to
>have been very lucky or blessed in my teachers.And they in theirs.
>
Fair enough.
>
>The kuden you refer to are orally transmitted 'keys' which when applied,
>unlock many mysteries of kata and karate.
>
yes, that is what I was saying. There are cases in which the move is
not in the kata, when someone shows you something like that, you
realise that there is no other way that you could learn it.
Cheers,
Bob
fin_fa...@webtv.net
John
fin_fa...@webtv.net
fin_fa...@webtv.net
Good man!
'I only know my experience( Morris) '
There is no doubt Vince Morris is quite powerful and effective.He has as
you say, his own take on things, and a disturbing penchant for smashing
anything available with knee strikes so I understand.:-)
Rather permanent, that would be.
'I wonder how much came from Ohtsuka.'
Much, would be my guess, but how much, we shall possibly never know.Wha
Ohtsuka taught, that at least, we can know.He wove Jiujitsu into karate,
but really, it was always therre, else the Fubakoshi people would be the
only ones who did it.
Ohtsuka being a poficient jiujitsu practitioner before starting karate,
was very good at this.But stories that he also knrew Naihanchi kata
before Funakoshi showed it in Japan, make one wonder what type 'jiujitsu
' Ohtsuka really knew.
We do know Funakoshi had him teach SD in class until 1935.
'I have that one- and one other!'
I have those wich I have recommended to others, as pretty good places to
get ideas similar to what I was taught,but not of course, identical.
The kuden of Yang Tai Ji from Yang Chen Fu was written down, all but
one, By Ch'eng-Man-Ching.
The points of Kungfu and Taiji I got from a place owned by a friend of
mine, and the Judo points known as the Kano seventy from another friend
who is by way of being a sixth dan or so Judo, eighth dan Kodenkan
Danzan Ryu,from an old book on the Complete Kano Jiujitsu, written in
English in 1906.The Dover reprint omitted the Kano Seventy, KERN
techniques all, as too dangerous.
Interestingly these Japanese points from Tenshin Shin'yo Ryu Jiujitsu,
chack with the Kungfu points.
'I'm not sure of who you mean.'
There are the right guys, the wrong guys, and the Ron guys.Talk to Pat
McCarthy and ask him what's goninan.:-)He knows all right.
'Nagamine's book was only intended as a reference, was it not? '
A bit more and a bit less, I shall explain.
A bit more in that before this book came out, there were other ways of
doing those kata,I actually leanred the pre book kata four years before
the book came out, and the book was meant as a bechmark saying , this is
Matsubayashi Ryu standard. So, more in that sense.
Less, in that he omits in this book, some of the essential foundation
drills and other concepts of the ryu, but his book in Japanese I believe
goes into these.
These, however, every whitre belt in that lineage does receive training
and kuden in.
This to insure against anyone merely trying to learn kata and karate
from the book alone,and pass themselves off as Matsubayashi ryu.
Remember when I said anyone punching, or stepping, or kicking, or
bocking, in that style is instantly recognizable? That's because of the
basic training.
Which is somewhat different than most styles one sees.
'There is nothing like training with the source himself.'
Well I haven't, but I sure trained with a serious student of the
sources.
And that 'aint bad.:-)
'I don't thiknk so!'
What I meant:'White belts learn the basics of an art, seminar
participants don't go to learn basics. They maybe should?
16 versions of the Bubishi...'
Every master on Okinawa had to copy his own by hand. Couple centuries of
that, more than sixteen exist i am sure.:-)
'there is no other way that you could learn it..'
Quite so.That is kuden.And usually, it isn't published.
Take Care,
John
Nowhere Man
I've looked for Oyata videos too.
I've seen one site which purports to sell them but it's not clear if Sensei
Oyata himself is featured (www.ryushu.com). Could you post (or email) the
link?
Regards,
Nowhere Man
ShadowJack <Wolfj...@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:991870261.25923.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
ShadowJack
"Nowhere Man" <nowhere...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:tL8U6.2573$IQ2....@news.iol.ie...
> Hi Jack,
>
> I've looked for Oyata videos too.
>
> I've seen one site which purports to sell them but it's not clear if
Sensei
> Oyata himself is featured (www.ryushu.com). Could you post (or email) the
> link?
>
> Regards,
>
> Nowhere Man
Same here, It seems that www.ryushu.com is the only place that supplies
them.
I was a bit dubious at first because they don't guarantee delivery outside
of the states,but after talking to some friends that have seen them and a
recommendation from Fin fang foom, they're highly regarded. I just had
to have them. So I've ordered Naihanchi Shodan to Nidan.
John's always been straight with me and given good advice in the past, so I
don't doubt his word. I've not got them yet, but to be fair they've kept me
updated
as to regards to the tapes.
I suggest that If you've any inquires E-Mail, Mike Minor"
<mi...@ryushu.com>he
should set you straight.
Jack.
>
fin_fa...@webtv.net
and Mike Minor is a senior under Taika Oyata, and all is as it says it
is.
Those tapes, which do feature Taika Oyata, will blow your mind.
You will never think about karate the same way again, and never will you
see kata the same.Its as simple as that.
As for difficulties with tapes arriving, I am sure Mike will get them to
you, and he is available on that email adddress. Also he sometimes
lurks and has posted on AMAKS, at least a few times, and backed me up on
what I had said about this particular topic, the origin of bunkai
emphasis in American and world karate in styles not preiously having it
as part of their curriculum.
I have seen the tapes in question, they are worth the money as very few
are.I am not advertising here, just reviewing.
You get kata done in fast motion, slow motion, four angles at least,
and apps for several sequences of overlapping movements.
You get hands and upper body only, lower body and fooftwork, both in
slow motion.
I think you also get the kata done basic and advanced timing, which is
something to see.
And more than that, you get Taika Oyata doing apps with actual
people.Sometimes they are wearing protective gear and they go out and
down right through the gear.
I would not have wanted to pose for those videos.
However, I am very happy to have viewed them.Sorry tha its tking so long
to get them, and I hope that when you do you will both also give your
impressions/reviews of the tapes on AMAKS.
ShadowJack
<fin_fa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:2889-3B2...@storefull-137.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> As for difficulties with tapes arriving, I am sure Mike will get them to
> you, and he is available on that email adddress. Also he sometimes
> lurks and has posted on AMAKS, at least a few times, and backed me up on
> what I had said about this particular topic, the origin of bunkai
> emphasis in American and world karate in styles not preiously having it
> as part of their curriculum.
He only sent them off last monday, so I expect at least 3-4 week delivery
time, no problem.
Snip trailer :-)
> I would not have wanted to pose for those videos.
>
> However, I am very happy to have viewed them.Sorry tha its tking so long
> to get them, and I hope that when you do you will both also give your
> impressions/reviews of the tapes on AMAKS.
More than happy to write a review for AMAKS, once they come through.
Thanks for putting me on to them John, I'm sure they'll not disappoint.
Yours, (waiting eargerly at the mailbox).
Jack.
Nowhere Man
> to get them, and I hope that when you do you will both also give your
> impressions/reviews of the tapes on AMAKS.
Thanks John.
Well, I've ordered the 'Kusanku' video (start slow). Mike is doing himself
no commercial favours with the website (it tells you nothing about the
videos or books).
I have Vince Morris' "Kanku-Dai" video - I wonder will I see any
similarities?
In fact, I have several each from Vince, Pat McCarthy, George Dillman and
Rick Moneymaker/DSI. This should be interesting...
NWM
fin_fa...@webtv.net
similarities?
Haven't seen it, couldn't say.
'In fact, I have several each from Vince, Pat McCarthy, Dillman,
Moneymaker/DSI.'
Never seen a Mccarthy vid.Never seen a Vince vid.Have seen the other
two.Except where they copy a technique Taika teaches, there is not much
similarity.
What you are going to see there, is something I can not really
describe,as the movement is of a level and a refinement that makes it
obvious that what you are seeing is the real thing.The students
reactions are not faked, and some are very skilled students indeed.
There are other martial artists who have impressed me. Gozo Shioda,
Aikido Yoshinkan Tenth Dan, is one.He is similar not in appearance, but
in effect.Those upon whom he applies are down right now.No apparent
effort is involved.Timing is perfect and seemingly natural.
There is no fakery, no phony posing,real posing yes, for safety,
involved, no excessive brutality,sufficient brutality, yes, just an
utterly effective, totally martial presentation.Technique hits and
opponent is done.That quick.You know it would work in a fight, you know
it would work if a smaller weaker person did it right.
Yang Jwing-Ming's chin na tapes are also good, though a still different
theory is applied.
I've been on the other end ot the techniques done by a senior student(
my teacher) and he started by saying, 'attack me.'Not from a chamber
zenkutsu, not with a prearranged, just try it on.
Never got to first base.One strike to nerves in the attacking arm and
down to the floor I went in agony, with the blinding flash in my mind,
'It exists!'
'It' being the mythical power we all heard about as beginners that
karate was supposed to possess but as far as we ever saw, didn't.Well it
does.
Will you learn it from Taika's videos?No, I don't think so.Will you get
a clue to it? maybe.Will you learn some new techniques? Most certainly.
Will you go down like a ton of bricks if you ever feel the real
thing?Heh.Heh.
Yep.Real karate hurts like the Devil.Without necessarily destroying
someone in one shot, the atemi or warning strikes are humane and so is
much of the tuite.
But it hurts like you would not believe.
The videos? Excellent.The ideas they open up? Same.Can you learn it from
the? Seen people try to, if never had the basic training, good luck, but
you won't.
Best for basic training? yang Jwing-Ming's.he gives basic drills for
stance and gripping strength, stepping circling and angling.
Most invisible technique? Shioda's.
Most advance revealing of secrets of karate kata? Bar none? Taika Oyata.
You will never ever think of your kata the same way again.That's worth a
ton.
Jake
wrote:
>Jake, you see it.
>
Oyata poked me in the arm with his elbow more than once at the seminar
I attended. It wasn't the technique pictured, but the result of the
elbow is a feeling something like a jolt of electrical juice.
I'll repeat this though: I see this stuff as good finishing
technique, most effective after softening the guy up with a
conventional strike.
-Jake
fin_fa...@webtv.net
effective after softening the guy upo with a conventional strike.'Jake
says.
So do we and the strike and block can be the same or simltaneous.
Oh, you lucky people, being on here right when I just received a whole
lot of in-depth stuff and authorization to post it , from an impeccable
type source whose names I can not use but whose information as
indicated, I can..
Anybody not here already, belly up to the bar, boys and girls especially
the girls:-), and the information will now begin to be dispensed.
Number One:
Okinawan tuite did not come from Chinese chin na.There is some Chinese
influence as one of Taika Oyata's teachers, wakinaguri No Tamei, was of
Chinese ancestry and did practice a combination of Chinese arts,
identities unknown and many have ceased to exist since that time and
later.
It may infact be of Okinawan origin.
Number Two:
There was no secret inner circle of teachers on Okinawa, they all knew
each other.As for how Taika got the information from them, he took the
old men ut drinking and asked them. If they did not tell, he would
arrange for sort of a spontaneous demonstration on someone he'd bring
for the purpose and observe the technique.
You'd only get one chance to see it.
Sake apparently was a persuasive loosener.
Kind of an Okinawan thing.
Number Two: Apparently very few martial artists can keep their feet
against a certain type of push.Taika apparently showed a bunch of his
senior students the truth of this a year ago. Uh-Oh.
Number Three and there is lots more but I must be cautious and wise in
my use of this information:
What is on those tapes is only the beginning. It goes a ltot deeper than
this.But as Jake says, tuite is for use after a good strike.
For basic idea, see my article on Shawn's website if its stilll there,
on a complete technique, or on the website f James Melton.Or on the SRSI
Journal.
Number Four:' Bob Mcmahon, you should ought to go to an Oyata
seminar.You would be amazed and gain many valuable ideas and much
knowledge.
Number Five: So should Patrick MCarthy.
If anyone really wants to be an educator, get the best education, folks.
There's more, and I'll give some:Bruce Miller, touted m By Elmar
Schmeisser on here, received at least some training from a man named
Bill Wiswell,who was one of Taika Oyata's senior students but they
separated company a few years before Dillman came along.Miller may have
started teaching his stuff before he met Wiswell but may have been
influenced afterwards.
So Miller had a direct Oyata coonection through Mr. Wiswell.
Taika Oyata does not teach a five element theory like Dillman does.
Aso Dillman's stuff, and you can take this to the bank as can you with
the rest of this stuff, is his own creation, apart from the few things
he actually learned from Taika.
But he appropriated the name Ryukyu Kempo for his own stuff and also the
name Tuite jutsu and kyusho jutsu and redefined them in his own image,,
and this is why Taika Oyata now calls his art RyuTe(C) which is a
federal trademark for use only by licensed agents.
The 'secret scroll' shown to Dillman and others is as described, and
Taika said that it was commonly handed out everywhere.
The DSI grop had it up on their website to discredit Dillman. It may
still be there.
The photo I gave url for was actually taken at the Official Karate
offices and not at a seminar.
Dllman was apparently not a seventh dan in Isshinryu, which i had said
he was.
kyushojutsu is not merely the art of striking vital points that Dillman
gives it as, It is the art of proper and natural use fo body mechanics
for self protection, the foundation of which it to learn how to protect
your own body first, and then to move in a natural and most effective
and efficient and spontaneous manner to protect your own life and that
of others.
It is the art of using the body as once we knew how but have
forgotten.It is true Body mechanics.
This is a far different light than most kata analysis people have on
things, and s what I was sort of trying to open up and get at a bit,
when I mentioned things that could make footwork a little more natural
and better.
Matsubayashi ryu Shorin ryu shows a different phase of technique than
does the RyuTe but in the advanced timing veriosn of kata, they
incorporate this phase as well.
There's more but this is enough for starters.This is the McCoy.
John
Bob McMahon
wrote:
>Number Four:' Bob Mcmahon, you should ought to go to an Oyata
>seminar.You would be amazed and gain many valuable ideas and much
>knowledge.
>
Thanks John, I would prefer to get it from the Horse's mouth instead
of the other end : )
Bob
George Winter
wrote:
>Thanks John, I would prefer to get it from the Horse's mouth instead
>of the other end : )
>
>
*snort*
thanks for enlivening my midnight newsreading!
--
George
_____________________________________________________________________
George Winter gwi...@q-sys.com
Qsys Ltd.
Information Systems Consulting
fin_fa...@webtv.net
it.
Ask Pat when he trained with Hiroshi. Some say they never saw him at the
hombu.
fin_fa...@webtv.net
Once there was a Forum( not a newsgroup but a moderated forum)
where a person was getting ready to impart some really rare information
passed down from a senior student of an Okinawan Tenth Dan.
The moderator asked everyone to be really sensitive to this information
as the forum was being monitored by the people passing the information.
Information began to flow.
People began to print it out because this was the real suff, from a
teacher whose teacher had studied in China, become a Kungfu master, and
taughtin China before coming home to Okinawaa and japan as well, and
teaching there.
Sre enough, just as t was beginning to make good, a couple of the
regulars made smartass comments, and the flow of information ceased.
This actually happened on another forum,,I was getting the information,
and I said, it is a darn shame that people can't control their big fat
efgos just long enough to partake of what is being offered , so they
screw it up for the rest of us.
Then I was contacted on that forum. and told that I would contine
receivng information via email.I will not name the teachers or the
style.It is a Chinese style taught on Okinawa however.
History repeats itself on AMAKS: I mention that I will now be giving
some information that is from an impeccable source, whom I shall not
name. You should know to believe me when I say this.
Information begins to flow.
Smartass comments are made.
Oh Kay.
Who is the other end of the horse?
The one who was giving you some information you ain't gonna get anywhere
else, or the one who stopped the flow with the dumbass comments?
See you later.Maybe.
Bob McMahon
Dear John,
On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:30:44 -0500 (EST), fin_fa...@webtv.net
wrote:
Don't be pathetic, mate, I have met and trained with Hiroshi Kinjo.
Patrick brought him to Australia and Kinjo tole me personally that he
considered Patrick one of the very few capable of imparting true old
style karate.
Regardless, take it up with Patrick, he's a big boy, quite capable of
defending himself by word and deed if necessary.
Bob
fin_fa...@webtv.net
of defending himself by word and deed if necessary.'
So am I for that matter Bob. At any rate, you are both invited to attend
any seminar with Taika, and you may take it that the invitation is a
sincere one, and this for no other reason than that, as I say, if you
want to see the realest deal you ever saw, you should try some of that.
That invitation did not by the way, come from me.But was extended to
each of you. If you should either of you wish to make reservations, I am
able to arrange them through my contacts.Just let me know.I may be too
poor to travel now, but if you lot aren't, this can be arranged.
The information I had previously posted did not come from me but did
come from sources that do know what they are about.
Very close to the Horses mouth let us say.
As for that about Pat, its from a different place and may well be, as it
turns out, less than accurate. I always print corrections and
retractions as needed.
That particular source it so seems, has been less than reliable in
past.But at the time, I was unaware of this.Well, not completely aware
let us say. We all get hold of some bad information at times. Which is
why to go to the source.
Of course, some have printed stuff about me that was also untrue and
less than accurate.
Which is why I put the information on in the first place.
You'd be surprised to know who's reading this discussion, Old Son.
John Genjumin Vengel
Tazman
> History repeats itself on AMAKS: I mention that I will now be giving
> some information that is from an impeccable source, whom I shall not
> name. You should know to believe me when I say this.
>
> Information begins to flow.
>
> Smartass comments are made.
>
The whole internet is one click away, coming or going. It's
interesting that the majority or regulars here are in lurk mode
waiting for the steak. Why not concentrate on the one's that believe
you?
Do I want to change the way I view kata? Well, considering I'm not
too overwhelmed with it in the first place, yes.
So far it's making sense: 1)there are techniques out there that form
the basis of all arts. Yep, and the fractioning of arts, and within
arts, has diluted this to the point that kata's common form is a
dance. 2)That body mechanics is the key concept behind kata. Yep, it
has to be. This is where the little dance starts to make sense
3)That pressure point and KERN (as I understand them to mean) are
essential. Yep, there has to be a reason one sticks out the ol' fist.
One must also be able to stop the opponent as quickly and humanly as
possible. 4)There are movements no one can overcome. Yep, I've had a
problem with the good swift kick in the nuts. 5)Some people don't get
it. Yep, you don't need to see the inside of a dojo to see this.
Anywho, so far I'm sure some of us are with ya!
I think the smartass stuff comes from perceiving "my arts better then
yours".
Scott
fin_fa...@webtv.net
standard martial arts training teach us to immediately react to any new
truth with a testosterone to the brain reaction, shutting down conscious
thought and causign everyone to emit grunting noises and chest thumping
displays, or make jokes out of a situation existing whereby a portal to
some high class and high quality information other than those we see so
often and hear so often advertised as the real thing, has become opened
to any one serious enough to investigate it?
Who wants to learn the most effective stuff anyone could ever
imagine?And apply this knowledge to your own body, your own movement,
your own style, your own kata, your own technique, and your own
thinking?
Or do we want to let personalities get in the way of the acquisition of
knowledge and truth?
Fun's fun, but that is a sad day for AMAKS when we stop looking for the
real thinking we have everything there is about it.None of us do, and
the path to making further progress is either opened or closed,
depending on our own attitudes and our own approaches.
There are a few places, a few people,, on this earth, that are light
years ahead of most of us, and somewhat willing to share what the have,
to the extent at least of making some of us think and examine and re
examine our own understanding of what we call martial arts, and otehr
things as well.
Our actions upon encountering those sources of information determine our
future ability to acquire that for ourselves and share it with others.
Invitations were extended in good faith.Opportunity beckons for
information and understandings that may enable many or a few to
trnasform their previousunderstanding f what it is we do, such that it
would in a short period become something entirely different than what we
know and have today.
Its already happened for me, and I attempt to share some little of it
with those willing to try it out.
What else can I say? Not Me Tarzan, Thumpa thumpa thumpa! That's just
stupid.
Make a joke of an opportunity to learn? I know people who'd give their
right arm for what has been offered.
Others apparently wouldn't, that is fine , up to them and more for us, I
guess.
No snide comments needed.Just a straight answer.Do you Really Want to
Know?
Yea or nay, no maybe's.
John
George Winter
wrote:
>Another questoon we might with some profit ask ourselves: does current
>standard martial arts training teach us to immediately react to any new
>truth with a testosterone to the brain reaction
>Who wants to learn the most effective stuff anyone could ever
>imagine?And apply this knowledge to your own body, your own movement,
>your own style, your own kata, your own technique, and your own
>thinking?
I think it's a pretty common reaction in any group of people who have
invested time & energy in a persuit. You take any 5 experts and show
them there is a lot more, 1 will sign on as your chela, 2 will
intelligently question to plumb the quality of your info, and 2 will
snort & reject you because you challange the basis of your expertise.
Personally I'm one of the 2 who question rather than those who dive in
and start swilling knowlege. Why? Well it's a habit, it's prudent &
has paid off in the past, and probably I too do not wish to be
disabused of my own expertise.
>Invitations were extended in good faith.Opportunity beckons for
>information and understandings that may enable many or a few to
>trnasform their previousunderstanding f what it is we do, such that it
>would in a short period become something entirely different than what we
>know and have today.
BTW I'm not really sure what you are talking about, is this in
reference to someone who posted on AMAKS?
In any case A "feature" of this forum is that there is no such thing
as "content without criticism". Most karate experts will not want to
work hard (ie post intelligently) to share their knowledge only to
have clever people poke holes in THEIR statements. They are used to
being top banannas, NO ONE questions them, no one makes jokes at
*their* expense. Why would it happen in AMAKS, some will do it based
on their own legitimate expertise, others just because they are dicks,
but even if you posted a ton of wonderful stuff you would see
questions, criticisms, & etc. What most want is a an "aaaahhh!!" of
wonder, love, and admiration.
>No snide comments needed.Just a straight answer.Do you Really Want to
>Know?
>Yea or nay, no maybe's.
Yes, but I will read it, contrast it with what I think to be correct
and post questions & comments, as I would expect the others would as
well.
the_peanut_gallery
> There was no secret inner circle of teachers on Okinawa, they all knew
> each other.As for how Taika got the information from them, he took the
> old men ut drinking and asked them.
This technique still works :-)
If they don't drink, invite 'em to dinner and make sure there's enough
clear space in the dining room to demonstrate any points you may
inadvertantly happen to mention over the brandy and cigars.
--
Rose Humphrey
fin_fa...@webtv.net
he's a number Two questioner.
Questions are bread and butter, I don't need or want chelas, and what I
was saying is that some info is being channelled through me( not by any
supernatural means but rather by some people who are pretty close
toplaces where the stuff comes from, as far as this knowledge is
concerned) to counter some stuff that has been widely spread and
believed.
I said beforehand, here it comes.Now me, criticism doesn't bother
because after all these years, I'm still here.Some who once were, are no
longer, including some well known experts on the stuff I write about.
They can come too, if they want.
Now, as far as the information itself.
Basically, one has to listen to one's own body and study it, and most
martial artists these days stop before they ever get to that point.Which
is the real beginning.
Kata contains movement and body mechanics, and movements in the kata as
well.But some schools( most) freeze their kata right where it was, and
don't enable it or themselves to grow past a certain point.
One must study ones own weaknesses.One must cover these in usage, in
actual application and in practice, and then the oppoent will fall of
themselves, since attackers open themselves by their attacks.
Prosaically: Where are you open in a stance or posture, to attack, where
are you covered.
What's open in a zkd or jiyu kamae fudo dachi stance?What isn't ? Why?
aqestions? Theyare the essence of what it's about. We need to learn the
right questions.
How about our stablity, really, in a stance? Can you be easily pushed
over out of your stance? Have you practiced this with a partner?
Is too much tension a good idea? To much relaxation?
How doyou cover( guard) your upper body with your arms/hands?
How do you cover your lower body and how?
How do you protect your limbs from attack?
These questions need to be asked by each ofus to ourselves, and answers
need to be found and researched, and we need to look at kata to find
some, maybe kata of an earlier type than the Shotokan ones.
There is only one kind of karate,we each have two legs, two arms, one
head, etc., most of us anyway.
Thnking in terms of styles is actually self defeating, after a certain
point we need to think it terms of what is effective, what will work
better, how we can be more balanced, more stable, more mobile, more
protected and more able to use our bodies naturally and wih maximum
effect to protect ourselves and our loved ones,and in any just manner.
Even thinking in temrs of specific techniques is limiting, as when one
learns more efficient body mefchanics and has the underlying principles
hardwired through true kata practice, meaning practice of the kata in a
spontaneously effective manner, it isn't necessarily done the same each
time, thats basic level but we must go beyond this, then the body and
mind react spontaneously to attacks with effective maneuvers that may
even be created spontaneously.This is what Ueshiba was always saying
but none understood him.
One must learn basics, movements, techniques, and kata, one mi=ust train
with a basic and advnced timing n these, one must then learn to
integrate natural movement into all phases of life, and then omnly, one
can have true life protection or goshinjutsu skills.
These are some general thoughts, mine and those I have received,put
together and presented.
Now question away, but be sure to ask yourselves first.:-)
Nowhere Man
<fin_fa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:18893-3B...@storefull-133.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> Yea or nay, no maybe's.
A 'Yea' from me, no doubt about it.
I look around my little room here and I see dozens of videos (McCarthy,
Dillman, Moneymaker, Morris and soon Oyata) to go along with the Shotokan
ones from Kawasoe, Enoeda, Kanazawa. I see lots of books by Yang, Dillman,
McCarthy, Morris, Moneymaker, Bishop, plus Judo, Ju-Jitsu, Kick-boxing,
self-defense, to go along with the Shotokan books from Nakayama, Morris,
Trimble, Schmeisser etc. I've been to seminars from some of the above
non-shotokan gentlemen also. (All that is not unusual in AMAKS).
I have no choice but to study Japanese karate as there are no RyuKyu Kempo
or Shorin-Ryu etc schools available, and I have been practicing Shotokan for
my main art for 11 years now. For 8 of those years I've known that what I
was being taught was, well, wrong. Or at least, not as advertised. In my
worst moments I think what is generally taught is complete BS.
That's a big reason that I don't teach Shotokan - why perpetrate it? Myself
and one or two scattered like-minded friends definitely 'really wanna know',
so we have tried to learn what we can from the few opportunities available
to us. I look forward to further posts.
Regards,
NWM
Bob McMahon
On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:50:43 -0500 (EST), fin_fa...@webtv.net
wrote:
>Bob says:' Regardless, take it up with Patrick, he;'s a big by, capable
>of defending himself by word and deed if necessary.'
>
>So am I for that matter Bob.
At any rate, you are both invited to attend
>any seminar with Taika, and you may take it that the invitation is a
>sincere one, and this for no other reason than that, as I say, if you
>want to see the realest deal you ever saw, you should try some of that.
>
>That invitation did not by the way, come from me.But was extended to
>each of you. If you should either of you wish to make reservations, I am
>able to arrange them through my contacts.Just let me know.I may be too
>poor to travel now, but if you lot aren't, this can be arranged.
I don't speak for Patrick, how can I make that any clearer! I DONT
SPEAK FOR PATRICK MCCARTHY!
You don't speak for Taika Oyata. I'd love to go to one of his
seminars but I make my own arrangements thank you, and have done so
for many years.
>
>As for that about Pat, its from a different place and may well be, as it
>turns out, less than accurate. I always print corrections and
>retractions as needed.
>
>That particular source it so seems, has been less than reliable in
>past.But at the time, I was unaware of this.Well, not completely aware
>let us say. We all get hold of some bad information at times. Which is
>why to go to the source.
>
It is better to be sure of your facts before opening your mouth John,
then you'll have no need for retractions. A word for the wise, leave
my name out of your posts and I'll not annoy you again : )
Bob
fin_fa...@webtv.net
The Sounds of Silence.
And the words of the prophets are written on the secret scrolls, and
temple walls.:-)
Meanwhile, lets review:Old time martial fighters spent a lot of time
standing in one stance, training balance, strength,and breathing, for
later practice of natural and very fast movement.
In light of this, naihanchi/tekki as a foundation kata of shorin makes a
lot of sense that before,it may not have.
Nyoh?
Roberto A. Alvelais
Having done a bunch of this, I can't help but think that
there are more efficient ways of imparting such knowledge
and attributes to learn efficient and effective motion,
balance and stregth. I can't help but wonder that, during
the days when disciples were accepted into your home and
family that if an element of hazing is involved in the
practice. Perhaps this was a way, along with cleaning out
the night pots and stables, to weed out potential
undesirables from one's inner circles.
Certainly, with advances in kinesiology and sports science
and sport psychology, if these methods were truly the best,
we'd be reading about the hours that Shaq or Michael or
Tiger spent in their sport's equivalent of san ti, in their
biographies.
Rob
On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:41:32 -0500 (EST),
fin_fa...@webtv.net wrote:
>Meanwhile, lets review:Old time martial fighters spent a lot of time
>standing in one stance, training balance, strength,and breathing, for
>later practice of natural and very fast movement.
>
>In light of this, naihanchi/tekki as a foundation kata of shorin makes a
>lot of sense that before,it may not have.
>
>
>Nyoh?
Nowhere Man
<fin_fa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:7926-3B2...@storefull-132.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
>
>
> Aso Dillman's stuff, and you can take this to the bank as can you with
> the rest of this stuff, is his own creation, apart from the few things
> he actually learned from Taika.
From Dillman's book: 'Advanced Pressure Point Grappling: Tuite', in big
black bold letters:
----------------------------------------
NOTE ON THE TERM "DILLMAN METHOD"
In the martial arts it is common for senior martial artists to open up their
own dojo. If the are successful at this, they will sometimes end up as the
head of a MA organisation. When such a person has learned from more than one
master, it is not at all uncommon to find him teaching a version of the art
which is not exactly what any one of his teachers taught, but which does
contain elements of all. When this occurs, a delicate issue arises
concerning the proper name for the art whichis being taught.
As a matter of respect, a teacher will sometimes use the name of the art
which one of his masters taught him. However, it would be disrespectful to
use the name without in some way distinguighing it form his master's art.
<SNIP>.
The term Ryukyu Kempo was not known in the US (except among a few
martial arts historians) until Seiyu Oyata began teaching and using that
name for his art. Master Oyata was a very important teacher of George
Dillman. In fact, it was master Oyata that wrote the original calligraphy
which appears on our uniform patches. Though Dillman has had many teachers
whose influence appears in what he teaches, he has continued to use the name
Ryukyu Kempo as a sign of respect. However, rather than using the
awkward-sounding Japanese phrasing, Dillman-ha Ryukyu Kempo, we have chosen
the more familiar English term "Dillman Method".
----------------------------------------
This was Dillman's 3rd book. In his first two, he also acknowledges Master
Oyata as one of his teachers but doesn't give him the same prominence.
Also picked this up of the web:
"Kimberly Dillman - In the 1970's, when George Dillman was first being
introduced to pressure point theory, his "better half" (haha!) Kim, was
tearing up the tournament scene in the ladies division. Kim was the ladies
U.S. National Karate Champion from 1970-1971. Kim began studying karate in
1969. She competed heavily and was ranked No.1 in fighting and forms.
Although her husband George has gained worldwide fame as the Master of
Kyusho-jitsu, George readily admits that it was she, not he, who was the
first to actually perform the KO's correctly. Kim remembers, "We were
getting black and blue, but the techniques weren't working". One day, as she
was driving Okinawan Master Seiyu Oyata to the airport after a visit to
their home, she told Oyata about their situation. Oyata was greatly amused
by it and proceeded to show Kim the correct "touch". Upon her arrival home,
Kim had her husband stand up in front of the couch and knocked him cold.
After a few minutes, George looked up and said..."Do that again!". The rest,
as they say, is history!"
http://www.midnightbluekarate.com/themasters.htm
Regards,
NWM
Nowhere Man
written by Chris Thomas, his right hand man:
<SNIP>
Soken took action to ensure that the old ways were not lost. He demonstrated
kyusho-jitsu to Dillman and three other black belts. He delivered to them a
set of notes introducing the fundamental concepts of the art, telling them
that they needed this knowledge to become a true master.
Dillman was unable to master the information contained in the notes. As a
result, they ended up in a drawer. But that encounter with Soken opened
Dillman's eyes to the fact that there were secrets of the martial arts that
he had yet to learn. "I had always thought I knew everything," Dillman says.
"But after that meeting with Soken, I realized I had a long way to go."
In 1983 Dillman saw Seiyu Oyata perform a kyusho-jitsu knockout. He
immediately recognized that this was what Soken had done. For the next year
and a half, Dillman trained intensively with Oyata. But it wasn't until a
session with small-circle jujutsu founder Wally Jay that Dillman performed
kyusho-jitsu correctly.
As Dillman watched Jay teaching the small-circle method, he began to wonder
if that same concept might put just the right torque on a pressure point to
do the job. Grabbing a student, Dillman went into the office and tested his
idea. The result was his first successful pressure-point knockout.
From that moment on, Dillman's skill and ability grew. He received a
seventh-dan (degree) black belt from Oyata, and he worked to blend the
small-circle concept into his art. He found that the methods of modern
arnis, as taught by Remy Presas, fit in as well.
<SNIP>
http://w3.blackbeltmag.com/halloffame/html/213.html
Gabriel Brega
Roberto A. Alvelais <Hoku...@jko.com> wrote in message
news:3jusit8jjlid14gtd...@4ax.com...
>
> Having done a bunch of this, I can't help but think that
> there are more efficient ways of imparting such knowledge
> and attributes to learn efficient and effective motion,
> balance and stregth. I can't help but wonder that, during
> the days when disciples were accepted into your home and
> family that if an element of hazing is involved in the
> practice. Perhaps this was a way, along with cleaning out
> the night pots and stables, to weed out potential
> undesirables from one's inner circles.
Cheap labor too. But that is true of a lot of other fields,
think of the academics who get their students do the legwork
for them, and then they assemble those bits and pieces of
knowledge in their wonderful books - "Ohh, a tapestry, such
a richness of detail, such a wealth of information. Where will
they find the time ?"
I remember when I did my thesis I had to refuse a lot of those
'component thesis', say "A documentary history of the price
of horse manure in the province of Siena between 1725 and
1728 ". There was a lot of that going around. But then,
those who bent - some of them - are now the assemblers.
So, I guess it was a trade off.
>
>
> Certainly, with advances in kinesiology and sports science
> and sport psychology, if these methods were truly the best,
> we'd be reading about the hours that Shaq or Michael or
> Tiger spent in their sport's equivalent of san ti, in their
> biographies.
>
This is a serious question, to you and to whoever knows more
than me.
I practice both "holding stances" and ballistic training.
Say for kicking. Standing on one leg with a knee raised for
longer periods of time, or raising the knee quickly 50/100 times
per side.
I seem to benefit from both. But why and how ?
Gabriel
Roberto A. Alvelais
kicking is actually one of strength. A lot of people can
fling the leg up, but lifting the knee without flinging the
leg is another matter. Balance also can be a problem.
The lifting the knee and holding the position helps in
building the strength and balance necessary for kicking.
The quick knee raises will also help develop strength in the
muscles involved in lifting the knee.
Rob
On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 20:45:04 -0700, "Gabriel Brega"
<gbr...@sprynet.com> wrote:
>This is a serious question, to you and to whoever knows more
>than me.
>
>I practice both "holding stances" and ballistic training.
>
>Say for kicking. Standing on one leg with a knee raised for
>longer periods of time, or raising the knee quickly 50/100 times
>per side.
>
>I seem to benefit from both. But why and how ?
>
>
>Gabriel
George Winter
<Hoku...@jko.com> wrote:
>One of the problems that I've noticed that people have with
>kicking is actually one of strength. A lot of people can
>fling the leg up, but lifting the knee without flinging the
>leg is another matter. Balance also can be a problem.
I like teaching knee kicks as a tool to develop more effective full
range kicks. Getting the knee up in the right trajectory is the simple
key to good front & round house kicks, but for some reason people
always muff the proper motion. Recently I practiced 30+ full technique
kicks (per side), then 30 knee kicks per side, then 20+ knee kicks
into pads held by partners, then back to the full technique. I think
they improved :-)
fin_fa...@webtv.net
and stadning in shizentai( natural stance) and doing nami gaeshi and
holding the position at the apex of the kick, then repeating, is good
too.
These all can help. But one caveat:Some of us never gonna be Taekwondo
champs in kicking, and that's flat nature and genetics.
fin_fa...@webtv.net
Chris Thomas is Shotokan man Tom Countryman, by the way.
Nowhere,:-), if tha article is true, why in a year and a half of correct
and 'intensive' training, could Dillman not duplicate any of Oyata's
moves without doing small circle and arnis?
he can't duplicate them now, truth to tell.
What they have is a few things they learned and a lot they put together
and made up, so its really something quite different that they do. I
know, for I have trained with people from both camps.
They were amazed at me, the Dillman people that I met,though I mostly
did basics.
Not that they have no knowledge or skills, but that they got those from
places other than what is stated.
Those soken charts were very common on Okinawa.
They are at the DSI website if you want to see them. Basic kyusho charts
and why couldn't anyone understand them other than that they were
written in Okinawan?
Follow the pictures.Prety basic charts, I thought the Funakoshi ones
were better.
What I want to know,who and what karate person alive , did not know
there were pressure and vital points, even if they didn't know how to
use them?
That story rings false on several points.
As for the seventh dan, he was asked to return it and didn't.Some rank
inflation does seem to accompany any beginning of an org, why I don't
use rank myself,anymore.'Cept to impress the yokels.:-)
I wouldn't necessarily believe what you hear from those quarters, there
are already several different stories.
But believe as you will.The real stuff is somewhat available to those
who truly wish to know.
fin_fa...@webtv.net
mention.
Also try it diagonally, to opposite shoulder. This is a good training
for hips, and back.
If a student can't lift knee high, have them start with foot to knee.
fin_fa...@webtv.net
form, the dynamic stretching works best.
Swing stretching in short. Strength is important as well.Sterength can
be gotten by practicing kiba dachi and emphasizing ankle flexibility.
Also stretch by putting the leg straight out on a level surface, while
standing, and holding correct kicking form while thinking towards an
opponent.That makes the form more balanced, belive it or not.
Serious question deserves straight answers.
John
Gabriel Brega
<fin_fa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:25016-3B3...@storefull-135.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
All this is not new - I have been doing all the above plus more,
for instance a 4 count mae geri holding each position a bit (knee
raise, leg extended, knee raised, kick back to the floor) for a
long time, and both holding exercises and ballistic exercises
seem to develop strength and speed. And of course that
is the way I teach.
My question was more technical, since Rob had mentioned modern
advances in sports physiology etc : what does isometric do that
ballistic does not and vice versa ? and, what is the difference between
low reps/high resistance and high reps/low resistance in the development
of muscles ?
Gabriel
Roberto A. Alvelais
<gbr...@sprynet.com> wrote:
>My question was more technical, since Rob had mentioned modern
>advances in sports physiology etc : what does isometric do that
>ballistic does not and vice versa ?
> and, what is the difference between
>low reps/high resistance
Conventional wisdom is that, while both methodologies will
bring about improvement in strength, this method brings
about the greatest gains in strength/size development.
>and high reps/low resistance in the development
>of muscles ?
>
This is thought to bring about endurance.
>Gabriel
The muscles adapt by getting to the point of fatigue and
then recovering. The cellular changes that occur during
recovery result in the strength gains observed. Isometric
strength training is a way in which to fatigue the muscles
and bring about some strength gains. For kicking, we're
not talking about a lot of functional strength necessary for
the task. Isometric training, can bring someone to the
level necessary to kick properly. I have encountered those
who didn't have that level of strength, they struggled
mightily to bring their knee to waist level. The other
problem with kicking is that of balance. The four count
kicks, or standing on one leg as you've mentioned earlier
helps develop people's balance.
Is that what you're talking about?
Rob
R...@jko.com
Helgi Briem
<gbr...@sprynet.com> wrote:
>My question was more technical, since Rob had mentioned modern
>advances in sports physiology etc : what does isometric do that
>ballistic does not and vice versa ? and, what is the difference between
>low reps/high resistance and high reps/low resistance in the development
>of muscles ?
Isometric strengthens the muscle, but only in the
particular position/angle used during the exercise.
It also seems to provide less overall benefit than
isotonic resistance exercises (i.e. weight training).
Ballistic exercises will train the timing and the
nerve/muscle coordination, but not the muscle's
strength.
Low reps / high resistance is the best way to
increase strength, power and muscle mass.
High reps and low resistance is much less effective
for increasing strength and mainly increases lactic
acid tolerance and thus endurance of the muscle
(which can of course be important in a fight).
Regards,
Helgi Briem
Wiebe Schuurbiers
<fin_fa...@webtv.net> schreef in bericht
news:24328-3B...@storefull-133.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
[snap]
> 'It' being the mythical power we all heard about as beginners that
> karate was supposed to possess but as far as we ever saw, didn't.Well it
> does.
[snap]
> Yep.Real karate hurts like the Devil.Without necessarily destroying
> someone in one shot, the atemi or warning strikes are humane and so is
> much of the tuite.
>
> But it hurts like you would not believe.
So Karate can be truely effective.
Not by practicing the ' pussy-style' karate that depends heavely on long
distance guakutstuki techniques, non-contact and all, that we see in far to
many dojo's and that gives the public the idea that karate resembles more to
dancing or funny gymnastics than a truely effective martial art.
The key (besides a good sensei) is a different approach. Not focussing on
the earlier described, and oh-so-common, kumite-model, but on a kata-apps
based curriculem. Uke striking with the intention to hurt for real, nage
forced to respond accordingly.
Now, why don't we see this in a Muay thai, Wrestler, (kick)Boxer versus
karateka match. Then the outcome would be very different I bet...:-)
Osu,
Wiebe Schuurbiers
Roberto A. Alvelais
(Helgi Briem) wrote:
>High reps and low resistance is much less effective
>for increasing strength and mainly increases lactic
>acid tolerance and thus endurance of the muscle
>(which can of course be important in a fight).
>
>Regards,
>Helgi Briem
Why is this important in a fight. In a match, ok. But a
fight? Fights don't go on that long, do they? Aren't they
over rather quickly, or isn't that what we should be
training to do?
Rob
R...@jko.com
fin_fa...@webtv.net
Isometric strengthens muscles in place, stretching properly aids in
gaining flexibilty but according to a gymnastic coach I know, not
necessarily inccreasing strength and you do need strength.
Plyometric( Kung fu training) forces strength increase while enabling
flexibility in motion, but must start small and work up.
Isometric plus stretching, pluse ballistic, plus strength training, =
best way to go.
Now I do know some drills that are more than basic but can't really
describe these in print.
My best recommendation or high kicking tech, Tom Kurtz' Books.I have
seen the results of those, though I didn't do it myself, as I have no
need whatever to kick high except with occasional front kicks and those
I developed long ago.
Other kicks expose generals to attack.Including high front kick.
Those weren't done in old style unless you did special training and
protected all points in kicking. Art called Tan Tui( Springing Legs)
specialized in this, and their own forms are ninety percent hands.
fin_fa...@webtv.net
reps/low resistance in the development of muscles?'
Well, the former is for developing strength, the latter is for
developing the outward appearance , bulking up,of the muscles.If I
recall correctly.
Now are we still wanting to develop kicking skills ?Work whatever you
want to develop into the practice of your katas, that way it becomes
hardwired, otherwise, it may take a longer time.
This helps in kicking cold.Te Tom Kurtz method emphasizes ballistic
stretching which is how we did in Kenpo, not just a swing but a swing
under power.
Plyometrics would add weights when swinging the stretches,and jumping,
and out of and into a ditch, and sandbags on the back, and so forth. I'd
watch that f i were you for a while, can pull a hamstring pretty easy
that way. I never ever pulled a groin or hamstring in karate, did in
Judo, though.
Now, for advanced kicking training, you need Chinese jing training.That
differs slightly from style to style, wu shu incorporates it however in
their acrobatic stuff.
Hope that helps.
the_peanut_gallery
> On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:06:14 GMT, he...@NOSPAMdecode.is
> (Helgi Briem) wrote:
>> High reps and low resistance is much less effective
>> for increasing strength and mainly increases lactic
>> acid tolerance and thus endurance of the muscle
>> (which can of course be important in a fight).
> Why is this important in a fight. In a match, ok. But a
> fight? Fights don't go on that long, do they? Aren't they
> over rather quickly, or isn't that what we should be
> training to do?
Oh gods, no. I can see another "strength vs speed" thread brewing here.
Might I nip in here and respectfully suggest that the appropriateness
of either type of exercise (high-rep vs low-rep) is entirely dependent
on the person doing it?
The heavy-set, naturally muscular build will probably benefit more from
high-rep stuff, whereas the wiry type may want to work more on
strength.
Personally, I think endurance is useful in a fight situation, as when
I'm running away as fast as possible I want the Baddie to tire before I
do. ;-)
--
Rose Humphrey
the_peanut_gallery
> Basically, one has to listen to one's own body and study it, and most
> martial artists these days stop before they ever get to that
> point.Which is the real beginning.
yes, /yes/, YES !
Of course, you have to study the other bugger's body as well if you want
it to hit the mat with monotonous regularity. But you can't really do
that unless you know yourself.
What I like about John's posts is that he is capable of putting these
things into words. People that can't just say: "You must train harder!"
--
Rose Humphrey
the_peanut_gallery
> The Knee lift or kick is also a good practice as Rob and George both
> mention.
> Also try it diagonally, to opposite shoulder. This is a good training
> for hips, and back.
And if you do it while twisting the upper body in the opposite
direction, it's /very/ good for the back. It may be accompanied by
clicking noises: don't let this put you off, as it's the vertebrae
going back into place after a hard day's slouch at the office.
--
Rose Humphrey
Nowhere Man
> Nowhere,:-), if tha article is true, why in a year and a half of correct
> and 'intensive' training, could Dillman not duplicate any of Oyata's
> moves without doing small circle and arnis?
>
Don't know! He has been careful in public to credit Master Oyata, is all I'm
saying I suppose. You're right, a lot of it doesn't make total sense.
> I wouldn't necessarily believe what you hear from those quarters, there
> are already several different stories.
He does have something of a PR machine going - especially with that Chris
Thomas guy.
> But believe as you will.The real stuff is somewhat available to those
> who truly wish to know.
>
Well, since neither Dillman nor Master Oyata are in any way available to me
(except through videos) it's academic unfortunately...
Regards,
NowhereMan
Roberto A. Alvelais
fin_fa...@webtv.net wrote:
>Plyometric( Kung fu training) forces strength increase while enabling
>flexibility in motion, but must start small and work up.
Kung fu training isn't necessarily Plyometric training. The
hops in Chinte can be plyometric. Stepping off of a box and
jumping the instant your feet touch the floor is plyometric.
Clapping push ups are plyometric. While certain jumping
maneuvers in kung fu or wu shu can be plyometric I don't
think that the bulk of most kung fu systems methodologies
are plyometric.
Rob
R...@jko.com
Roberto A. Alvelais
fin_fa...@webtv.net wrote:
>'What is the difference between low reps/high resistance and high
>reps/low resistance in the development of muscles?'
>
>Well, the former is for developing strength, the latter is for
>developing the outward appearance , bulking up,of the muscles.If I
>recall correctly.
No, bulking up will occur with low repetitions and High load
(near maximum weight that you can lift). Hi reps with low
load can tone, but the bulking up is from the heavy stuff.
Rob
R...@jko.com
Roberto A. Alvelais
fin_fa...@webtv.net wrote:
>This helps in kicking cold.Te Tom Kurtz method emphasizes ballistic
>stretching which is how we did in Kenpo, not just a swing but a swing
>under power.
CAUTION
Ballistic stretching must be done PROPERLY, if at all, in
order to avoid injury.
As an anecdote: One of my students used to pitch for the
Atlanta Braves org. He told me that if the trainers caught
them doing ballistic stretching they were fined $$$. That
tells me something. It tells me that the potential for
injuring the "company's asset" was too great to risk using
this methodology. Last time I checked, Ted Turner could
afford to hire the best and brightest athletic trainers.
Rob
R...@jko.com
Roberto A. Alvelais
fin_fa...@webtv.net wrote:
>Plyometrics would add weights when swinging the stretches,and jumping,
>and out of and into a ditch, and sandbags on the back, and so forth. I'd
>watch that f i were you for a while, can pull a hamstring pretty easy
>that way. I never ever pulled a groin or hamstring in karate, did in
>Judo, though.
Technically speaking, John, this is not plyometric training.
(swinging weights). The jumping is cool, but lose the
sandbags. The risk for injury is too great.
Remember the old judo drill, where you jump back and forth
over your partner who's on their hands and knees? That's
plyometric.
Rob
R...@jko.com
Roberto A. Alvelais
<the_peanu...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>On 20-juin-01, Roberto gave us food for thought:
>
>
>> On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:06:14 GMT, he...@NOSPAMdecode.is
>> (Helgi Briem) wrote:
>
>>> High reps and low resistance is much less effective
>>> for increasing strength and mainly increases lactic
>>> acid tolerance and thus endurance of the muscle
>>> (which can of course be important in a fight).
>
>> Why is this important in a fight. In a match, ok. But a
>> fight? Fights don't go on that long, do they? Aren't they
>> over rather quickly, or isn't that what we should be
>> training to do?
>
>Oh gods, no. I can see another "strength vs speed" thread brewing here.
>Might I nip in here and respectfully suggest that the appropriateness
>of either type of exercise (high-rep vs low-rep) is entirely dependent
>on the person doing it?
>
Your suggestion is a tad off. Rather, which type of
exercise depends upon the *goals* of the person doing the
exercise; whether they want to increase bulk/strength or
tone/endurance.
>The heavy-set, naturally muscular build will probably benefit more from
>high-rep stuff, whereas the wiry type may want to work more on
>strength.
Strength is a good thing. Again, it depends upon your
goals. I may want to manhandle my opponent. A
complicating feature is that one tends to do the High
rep/low weight during the competitive season and the low
rep/High load during the off season. It's a myth, given
that one approaches their training sensibly, that increasing
strength decreases speed or flexibility. Just go to the
University of Iowa's wrestling room and call the biggest guy
there a 'poof' if you're still unbelieving. ;-)
>
>Personally, I think endurance is useful in a fight situation, as when
>I'm running away as fast as possible I want the Baddie to tire before I
>do. ;-)
Then you should spend more time running than doing karate.
That will improve your endurance for running. Karate is
for when he catches up to you. I *HATE* running, so they
*will* catch me. I'll lift weights and train karate so that
I'm ready for them when they get to me.
Rob
R...@jko.com
fin_fa...@webtv.net
Every step can be a kick.
Every kick can be a trip.
Every kick can cut as well.Also reap.
Every trip or reap can be a throw.
Every human or most being symmetrical, each hand can deal with the
mirror arm, and each leg can deal with the mirror leg.
Each hand or arm can also deal with the opposite arm, the mirror leg, or
opposite leg, as can each leg, but in general legs deal with legs and
arms with arms, nless a kickcomes in ver your hand height in which one
can sweep or scoop the kick away as one simultaneously moves in for the
finale.
Think Tekki.What's really happening there?
Helgi Briem
<Hoku...@jko.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:06:14 GMT, he...@NOSPAMdecode.is
>(Helgi Briem) wrote:
>
>>High reps and low resistance is much less effective
>>for increasing strength and mainly increases lactic
>>acid tolerance and thus endurance of the muscle
>>(which can of course be important in a fight).
>
>Why is this important in a fight. In a match, ok. But a
>fight? Fights don't go on that long, do they? Aren't they
>over rather quickly, or isn't that what we should be
>training to do?
I said it can be. It usually isn't important at all.
Occasionally, expecially if a fight goes to the ground,
it can turn into a protracted struggle of strength
against strength, in which case muscle endurance
might become a factor, but overall, endurance is
much less important than absolute strength IMO.
Thanks for making me clarify that point, Rob.
Regards,
Helgi Briem
Helgi Briem
<wieb...@wanadoo.nl> wrote:
>So Karate can be truely effective.
>Not by practicing the ' pussy-style' karate that depends
>heavely on long distance guakutstuki techniques,
What a load of crap. A single long distance gyaku zuki
has ended more fights than Dutchmen have had hot
dinners.
Probably a lot of dojo could do with more realistic
training if (and this is a big if) their goal is more
effective self defence, but there's nothing wrong
with a good, strong and well timed gyaku zuki.
Let's just get that straight.
Regards,
Helgi Briem
the_peanut_gallery
> On 20 Jun 2001 23:32:42, the_peanut_gallery
> <the_peanu...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>>> High reps and low resistance is much less effective
>>>> for increasing strength and mainly increases lactic
>>>> acid tolerance and thus endurance of the muscle
>>>> (which can of course be important in a fight).
>>> Why is this important in a fight. In a match, ok. But a
>>> fight? Fights don't go on that long, do they? Aren't they
>>> over rather quickly, or isn't that what we should be
>>> training to do?
>> Oh gods, no. I can see another "strength vs speed" thread brewing
>> here. Might I nip in here and respectfully suggest that the
>> appropriateness of either type of exercise (high-rep vs low-rep) is
>> entirely dependent on the person doing it?
> Your suggestion is a tad off. Rather, which type of
> exercise depends upon the *goals* of the person doing the
> exercise; whether they want to increase bulk/strength or
> tone/endurance.
Yes, of course, you're right. <changes topic slightly> However, I've
been told (and am curious to learn if others have heard the same thing)
that people who are naturally chunky should avoid too much
bulk-increasing exercise for health reasons.
It's not strictly-speaking high vs low reps here, more high vs low
stance. Working in low stances, as we're supposed to do in Shotokan,
builds up the thigh muscles. Apparently, this is not good for people
who are already pretty chunky in that area, and can lead to problems
later on, so heavy-set people should go for a relatively higher stance.
Has anyone else come across this concept? If so, can they explain in
simple words, so's even a Karateka Of Very Little Brain can understand?
>> The heavy-set, naturally muscular build will probably benefit more
>> from high-rep stuff, whereas the wiry type may want to work more on
>> strength.
> Strength is a good thing. Again, it depends upon your
> goals. I may want to manhandle my opponent. A
> complicating feature is that one tends to do the High
> rep/low weight during the competitive season and the low
> rep/High load during the off season.
Good point. Actually, you could probably broaden that a little further
to include non-competitors. After all, during the training season we
*all* do high-rep/low weight work.
Although the only time I do low-rep/high load stuff is when I bring the
shopping home. Three flights up, no elevator (I was going to write
"lift" UK-style, but I /do/ have to lift the damn stuff).
> It's a myth, given
> that one approaches their training sensibly, that increasing
> strength decreases speed or flexibility.
Oof... saved. I gather you are not equating strength with bulk here?
(yes, silly question, go on, smack my head for it)
> Just go to the
> University of Iowa's wrestling room and call the biggest guy
> there a 'poof' if you're still unbelieving. ;-)
What makes you think I'd want to wrestle with some young, muscular...
vigourous... scantily-clad... Ahem. Can I get back to you on that one?
--
Rose Humphrey
Helgi Briem
<the_peanu...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>Yes, of course, you're right. <changes topic slightly> However, I've
>been told (and am curious to learn if others have heard the same thing)
>that people who are naturally chunky should avoid too much
>bulk-increasing exercise for health reasons.
Not true. However, anyone who enters a regime of
intense training should ramp up gradually and carefully
to prevent injury.
>
>It's not strictly-speaking high vs low reps here, more high vs low
>stance. Working in low stances, as we're supposed to do in Shotokan,
>builds up the thigh muscles. Apparently, this is not good for people
>who are already pretty chunky in that area, and can lead to problems
>later on, so heavy-set people should go for a relatively higher stance.
>
>Has anyone else come across this concept? If so, can they explain in
>simple words, so's even a Karateka Of Very Little Brain can understand?
It is, to make a long story short, absolute hogwash. The
only glimmer of something like truth is the fact that
heavy people may suffer more from knee problems if
they do low stances regularly.
Extra muscle bulk benefits everyone. It is metabolically
the most expensive tissue (apart from brain) and more
muscle equals more calories expended therefore less fat.
Even though it were true, building thigh muscles when
thighs were already chunky would only be bad from a
visual standpoint, not a health standpoint.
Besides, it is so hard for women to build extra muscle
bulk without artificial, chemical assistance that it's not
a possibility worth worrying about.
>Although the only time I do low-rep/high load stuff is when I bring the
>shopping home. Three flights up, no elevator (I was going to write
>"lift" UK-style, but I /do/ have to lift the damn stuff).
Three flights up with a load is high-rep by weight training
definition. Anything more than about 10 reps is.
Regards,
Helgi Briem
Tazman
> The hops in Chinte can be plyometric. Stepping off of a box and
> jumping the instant your feet touch the floor is plyometric.
> Clapping push ups are plyometric.
To make this realistic make the jump down an instantaneous launch into
a strike.
If the box is at 6 o'clock we place people at 9,12, and 3. Jump down
into the middle and launch a strike at one, two, or all of the people
as fast as one can.
Attacking one then another improved our ability to switch direction
and strike, but that part is not plyometric. However, it did make one
think about why they bounce in kumite.
Roberto A. Alvelais
<the_peanu...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>> Your suggestion is a tad off. Rather, which type of
>> exercise depends upon the *goals* of the person doing the
>> exercise; whether they want to increase bulk/strength or
>> tone/endurance.
>
>Yes, of course, you're right. <changes topic slightly> However, I've
>been told (and am curious to learn if others have heard the same thing)
>that people who are naturally chunky should avoid too much
>bulk-increasing exercise for health reasons.
>
Helgi hit the nail on the head there. He's absolutely
correct.
>It's not strictly-speaking high vs low reps here, more high vs low
>stance. Working in low stances, as we're supposed to do in Shotokan,
>builds up the thigh muscles. Apparently, this is not good for people
>who are already pretty chunky in that area, and can lead to problems
>later on, so heavy-set people should go for a relatively higher stance.
>
That's nonesense. Only potential problem is aesthetic in
nature. Even then, only *maybe*. For women, they'll be
fine as long as they lay of the androgen supplements.
>Has anyone else come across this concept? If so, can they explain in
>simple words, so's even a Karateka Of Very Little Brain can understand?
>
Simply put, the notion that increasing muscle mass for
"chunky" people, is bad is fallacious, rubbish, fantasy,
myth and just plain wrong. Providing that we're talking
about someone who isn't morbidly obese and who needs to be
under a physicians care when embarking on an exercise
program; the gains in muscle mass will accompany and actual
weight loss because (as Helgi said) muscle tissue needs lots
of calories. These calories come from adipose. So, more
simply put: "Weightlifting good!"
>
>>> The heavy-set, naturally muscular build will probably benefit more
>>> from high-rep stuff, whereas the wiry type may want to work more on
>>> strength.
>
>> Strength is a good thing. Again, it depends upon your
>> goals. I may want to manhandle my opponent. A
>> complicating feature is that one tends to do the High
>> rep/low weight during the competitive season and the low
>> rep/High load during the off season.
>
>Good point. Actually, you could probably broaden that a little further
>to include non-competitors. After all, during the training season we
>*all* do high-rep/low weight work.
>
If you're talking about the standard fare of karate
training, yes we do that year round. I was speaking
specifically of weight training and the goals of the weight
training.
>Although the only time I do low-rep/high load stuff is when I bring the
>shopping home. Three flights up, no elevator (I was going to write
>"lift" UK-style, but I /do/ have to lift the damn stuff).
>
>> It's a myth, given
>> that one approaches their training sensibly, that increasing
>> strength decreases speed or flexibility.
>
>Oof... saved. I gather you are not equating strength with bulk here?
>(yes, silly question, go on, smack my head for it)
>
<SMACK!> There, shall I kiss that boo boo now?
If by bulk you mean muscle mass, sure. Again, increased
muscle mass doesn't lead to being "muscle bound". Simply
look at elite athletes in wrestling, American Football,
Track and Field or the WWF. There are some rather "buffed"
specimins with good flexibility. Oh yes, in the Shotokan
world, there's Terry O'neil.
>> Just go to the
>> University of Iowa's wrestling room and call the biggest guy
>> there a 'poof' if you're still unbelieving. ;-)
>
>What makes you think I'd want to wrestle with some young, muscular...
>vigourous... scantily-clad... Ahem. Can I get back to you on that one?
>
>Rose Humphrey
Yes you may, but only after you change your age and marital
status requirements! :-o
Rob
R...@jko.com
Shawn Jefferson
wrote:
>What a load of crap. A single long distance gyaku zuki
>has ended more fights than Dutchmen have had hot
>dinners.
Not to mention stepping punches.
>Probably a lot of dojo could do with more realistic
>training if (and this is a big if) their goal is more
>effective self defence, but there's nothing wrong
>with a good, strong and well timed gyaku zuki.
>Let's just get that straight.
Most people are ill-equiped to win fights.
--
Shawn Jefferson
sjeffers{_at_}home[_dot_]com
Tazman
> A complicating feature is that one tends to do the High
> rep/low weight during the competitive season and the low
> rep/High load during the off season. It's a myth, given
> that one approaches their training sensibly, that increasing
> strength decreases speed or flexibility.
I do find that my muscles are a little tight the day after doing high
load weight training, and that at least feels slower. I think the key
is "sensibly". I remember weight training hard one day and sparring
for a few hours the next for months, and jogging. Man I looked good,
but too bad I couldn't sleep.
> I *HATE* running, so they *will* catch me. I'll lift weights and train karate
> so that I'm ready for them when they get to me.
If it was me chasing you, you'd only have to run 41 yards to safety.
But boy, you'd have to outrun the wind for the first 40:)
ShadowJack
"Helgi Briem" <he...@NOSPAMdecode.is> wrote in message
news:3b31ed94....@news.isholf.is...
> On 21 Jun 2001 11:25:54, the_peanut_gallery
> <the_peanu...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> It is, to make a long story short, absolute hogwash. The
> only glimmer of something like truth is the fact that
> heavy people may suffer more from knee problems if
> they do low stances regularly.
>
problems? When I was in my early twenties (many moons ago)
I suffered both knee and back trouble which finally went away
when I refused to do ultra low stances anymore. Now some
twenty years on I've got arthritis in my hips and knees, only put
right by a long course at the physiotherapist, which she attributed
to the ballistic stretching and low stances that I used to train in.
I can count on my hand, personal friends of mine (all in Shotokan)
that have suffered from Knee or back problems at one time or another
and they all reckon it's down to the low stances. Rose is right on the
button with this, and as John says you should listen to your own body.
Keep taking the Steroids Helgi.
Regards Jack.
Roberto A. Alvelais
<Wolfj...@Hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Helgi Briem" <he...@NOSPAMdecode.is> wrote in message
>news:3b31ed94....@news.isholf.is...
>> On 21 Jun 2001 11:25:54, the_peanut_gallery
>> <the_peanu...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>
>> It is, to make a long story short, absolute hogwash. The
>> only glimmer of something like truth is the fact that
>> heavy people may suffer more from knee problems if
>> they do low stances regularly.
>>
>So why is it, that Shotokan is well known for Knee and lower back
>problems?
I don't agree that shotokan is famous for knee and back
problems. However, if I allow your premise for a moment,
the reason for knee and back problems are stupid training
methodologies that are independant of the style of shotokan.
Some of these practices you describe below. Are you
implying that ballistic stretching is part of the Shotokan
Ryu ha? I never would have thought that.
> When I was in my early twenties (many moons ago)
>I suffered both knee and back trouble which finally went away
>when I refused to do ultra low stances anymore.
Low stances are part and parcel of many Japanese/Okinawan
styles as well as Chinese styles. Shito Ryu utilizes
stances as low as anything that you'd find in Shotokan.
Lower, from what I'm used to seeing as a Shotokan Neko Ashi
Dachi. Nonetheless, these other styles aren't "well known
for Knee and lower back problems". By ultra low, are you
talking about the stances as prescribed in either "Best
Karate", "Dynamic Karate", "Textbook of Modern Karate" or
"Karate: The Art of Empty Hand Fighting"? The reason I ask
is that a former (thank God) instructor of mine used to push
stances that were much lower than what either Nakayama,
Okazaki, or Nishiyam and Brown outlined in their books.
These stances placed undue strain on the knee joints and
lower back because of his misunderstanding of proper
shotokan stances. These weren't the fault of the parameters
of the Shotokan style, per se, but of <name witheld> ha-
"Shotokan". Again we come across the addage of finding a
"qualified and competant instructor" . Sadly, not as easy a
thing as it should be. There are many on this list who
also have decades of training, but have trained sensibly all
of those years and don't suffer knee and back pain.
> Now some twenty years on I've got arthritis in my hips and knees, only put
>right by a long course at the physiotherapist, which she attributed
>to the ballistic stretching and low stances that I used to train in.
A common thing that I see in karate is the side kick where
the kicker's belly button is turned towards the direction of
the kick. Of course this wouldn't cause hip or back pain,
it has to be the stances. :-] I've seen pictures of
Okazaki doing such a kick. The practice is widespread. so,
it doesn't seem surprising that this older generation is
having problems, although Okazaki himself may not be
experiencing such.
>I can count on my hand, personal friends of mine (all in Shotokan)
>that have suffered from Knee or back problems at one time or another
>and they all reckon it's down to the low stances.
If done properly, the stances aren't the problem. Attention
to the natural allignment of the joints is important.
>Rose is right on the
>button with this, and as John says you should listen to your own body.
>Keep taking the Steroids Helgi.
>Regards Jack.
I didn't notice the emoticon after your steroid admonition.
I'll assume that you were joking and you forgot to include
it. Otherwise I have confirmation of your idiocy.
Steroids are dangerous drugs. Ask Lyle Alzado.
Rob
>
Gabriel Brega
the_peanut_gallery <the_peanu...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:Yam2NN.AmigaOS.3...@wanadoo.fr...
>
> It's not strictly-speaking high vs low reps here, more high vs low
> stance. Working in low stances, as we're supposed to do in Shotokan,
> builds up the thigh muscles. Apparently, this is not good for people
> who are already pretty chunky in that area, and can lead to problems
> later on, so heavy-set people should go for a relatively higher stance.
>
Heavy set people should control their weight, imo.
Low stances are not only a way to train quads, ankle flexibility etc,
but also an easy feedback on one's weight/lower limbs strength
ratio. If the legs are too weak to comfortably utilize low stances,
they should be strengthened, and they will gain strength just by
practicing low stances.
If , otoh, the body is too heavy, low stances or karate won't fix
the problem, which has other more negative consequences than
how easy karate low stances are.
That's one of the portals through which karate may spill over into
your life in a beneficial way, giving you an incentive to do something
very good for you.
If for heavy set you mean muscular and stocky with not excessive
body fat, I assure you that low stances are not a problem, being a
member of that category myself.
Now, low stances (or squats etc.) done on cold can damage your
knees for sure, but that is a matter of following proper warm up
and stretching practices, not of low stances being bad per se.
Gabriel
Gabriel Brega
ShadowJack <Wolfj...@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:993142031.19976.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
>
> "Helgi Briem" <he...@NOSPAMdecode.is> wrote in message
> news:3b31ed94....@news.isholf.is...
> > On 21 Jun 2001 11:25:54, the_peanut_gallery
> > <the_peanu...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> >
> > It is, to make a long story short, absolute hogwash. The
> > only glimmer of something like truth is the fact that
> > heavy people may suffer more from knee problems if
> > they do low stances regularly.
> >
> So why is it, that Shotokan is well known for Knee and lower back
> problems?
Because fat people do karate who should lose weight before starting
training.
Because the same people have very stiff ankles from walking only
5 minutes a day, and attempting to do a shotokan zkd with a stiff
ankle can only result in excessive strain on both the lower back
and the inner aspect of the knee of the back leg.
Because most of the people do not control the alignment of their
pelvis with their tanden/glutei and the backside shoots up in a
lorditic posture. Mr Asai can do it OK, but he is double-jointed :-)
Anyway, why do you single out shotokan for these kinds of problems ?
I know a lot of people who get bad knees and bad lower back
for sitting around all day long.
Gabriel
Gabriel Brega
the_peanut_gallery <the_peanu...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:Yam2NN.AmigaOS.3...@wanadoo.fr...
I would do that in the stretching portion, before starting ballistic
training, though. If you have subluxations the best way is to
lay down on your back, keep your shoulders flat on the floor,
bend say your right leg, grab it with your left hand and pull it
to your left. Like this you can gradually 'pop' your lower back
vertebrae without risking some damage. This is even better
if you have a person you trust help you with the assisted twist.
Gabriel
the_peanut_gallery
> Besides, it is so hard for women to build extra muscle
> bulk without artificial, chemical assistance that it's not
> a possibility worth worrying about.
Oh, I wasn't worrying about me. If anything, I need more muscle to take
the strain off my knee joints.
--
Rose Humphrey
the_peanut_gallery
Discerning Female Karateka" by R.A. Alvelais when, on 21-juin-01,
ShadowJack gave us food for thought:
> "Helgi Briem" <he...@NOSPAMdecode.is> wrote in message
> news:3b31ed94....@news.isholf.is...
>> On 21 Jun 2001 11:25:54, the_peanut_gallery
>> <the_peanu...@spamcop.net> wrote:
No I didn't, it was Helgi. You must trim more carefully!
>> It is, to make a long story short, absolute hogwash. The
>> only glimmer of something like truth is the fact that
>> heavy people may suffer more from knee problems if
>> they do low stances regularly.
> I can count on my hand, personal friends of mine (all in Shotokan)
> that have suffered from Knee or back problems at one time or another
> and they all reckon it's down to the low stances. Rose is right on the
> button with this, and as John says you should listen to your own body.
> Keep taking the Steroids Helgi.
Now, now, Helgi *specifically* mentions the low stance risk to knees, so
you're being unfair. I, on the other hand, kept my post deliberately
vague and waffly to see what could be drawn from our resident experts.
Now I'm wondering what's so amazing about the athletes in Track and
Field. I thought that was a purely equestrian publication ;-)
On a more serious note, I recently found, and instantly purchased, a
handy little guide to all the things you can get up to in a weights
gym, with drawings showing the muscles brought into play, plus
explanations of how to do the exercise and - above all - what *not* to
do. I, for example, would be better off doing bench presses rather than
pushups because of the lumbar strain. Not that I can afford either time
or money to go to a weights gym, but some of this stuff can be done
using what comes to hand. Pumping iron with sacks of potatoes, anyone?
It's called "Guide des mouvements de musculation" by Frederic Delavier.
I have no idea if it's been translated into other languages.
--
Rose Humphrey
ShadowJack
"Roberto A. Alvelais" <Hoku...@jko.com> wrote in message
news:ila4jt4248od27sdi...@4ax.com...
> I don't agree that shotokan is famous for knee and back
> problems. However, if I allow your premise for a moment,
> the reason for knee and back problems are stupid training
> methodologies that are independant of the style of shotokan.
> Some of these practices you describe below. Are you
> implying that ballistic stretching is part of the Shotokan
> Ryu ha? I never would have thought that.
Hi Rob,
I can't in all honesty, speak for other styles of shotokan, but
when I first started training with the KUGB back in 79 ballistic
stretching was the norm, at least in the clubs that I trained in,
it was just normal practice at that time period.
>By ultra low, are you
> talking about the stances as prescribed in either "Best
> Karate", "Dynamic Karate", "Textbook of Modern Karate" or
> "Karate: The Art of Empty Hand Fighting"? The reason I ask
> is that a former (thank God) instructor of mine used to push
> stances that were much lower than what either Nakayama,
> Okazaki, or Nishiyam and Brown outlined in their books.
> These stances placed undue strain on the knee joints and
> lower back because of his misunderstanding of proper
> shotokan stances. These weren't the fault of the parameters
> of the Shotokan style, per se, but of <name witheld> ha-
> "Shotokan". Again we come across the addage of finding a
> "qualified and competant instructor" . Sadly, not as easy a
> thing as it should be. There are many on this list who
> also have decades of training, but have trained sensibly all
> of those years and don't suffer knee and back pain.
Perhaps I should have made my self clearer on this point,
as low as Nakayama if not lower with emphasis on pushing the
Knee outside the blade edge of the foot, what's upsetting to me
is the fact that some instructors in all this time still insist on the
knee in this position, talking to some of my friends they believe
that this knee position has been the cause of their woes, as it
does put the knee under undue stress. You see all the wannabe
kids who enter tourneys, ultra low stances, knee position as
described, god only knows what damage they're doing to them
self's.
> If done properly, the stances aren't the problem. Attention
> to the natural allignment of the joints is important.
Right on Rob, good advise. Personally I think it's only fair to
warn Karateka, against stressing the joints. I don't insist on dogmatically
pushing the knee out any more, and I try and explain to my own students,
if their feeling any pain in the joints that they're doing something wrong.
IMO the most common joint trouble, I've ran across has to do with
hyper extension of the elbow whilst punching.
> I didn't notice the emoticon after your steroid admonition.
> I'll assume that you were joking and you forgot to include
> it. Otherwise I have confirmation of your idiocy.
> Steroids are dangerous drugs. Ask Lyle Alzado.
>
> Rob
I was having a friendly dig at Helgi, meant as a joke. :-)
regards,
Jack.
ShadowJack
"Gabriel Brega" <gbr...@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:9gtfv3$89m$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
See Rose, I've been paying attention. :-)
Hi Gabe
> Because fat people do karate who should lose weight before starting
> training.
No argument there.
snip.
> Anyway, why do you single out shotokan for these kinds of problems ?
Because, I had no history of joint trouble prior to training in Karate,
because
the other people I trained with also suffered the same problems, because I
now believe that forcing the knee out beyond the blade edge of the foot is
bad practice, because after a long hard look ( from our club instructor )
he stopped insisting on the pushing of the knee beyond it's natural range
and within three months the knee problems had almost gone.
The back problem is something else entirely, I think was due while I was
still
a kyu grade, of over tensing in my stances and techniques, to much dynamic
tension I might as well have been doing Goju Sanchin, I was that stiff and
tense.
Have you read Yang, Jwing-Mings "Essence of Shaolin White Crane"?
page 258 section 1 on Hard Jin. He sums up back trouble and tension far
better
than I ever could, It's worth a read.
Back problem went when I at long last, finally started to relax in my
techniques.
Only to resurface years later, physio asked what sort of sport I was into,
as she
questioned (her words) over development of the leg and back muscles. She
asked to see what sort of stretching I used to do, and she winched when I
told
her, long and the short she tied in the joint trouble with the low stances
and
ballistic stretching. After months of Hydrotherapy and ultrasound
on the knees and a set of exercises that I have to do daily I'm back to
normal.
Caveat I can't train in low deep stances anymore,( no great loss imo.)
I've had to change jobs where I now have to work in a climate stable
environment.
One instructor I know of down in the south of England has now developed
arthritis in his hips, Just seems a bit of a coincidence that a few of the
Karateka
that I trained with ( and a few instructors that I know about through them)
are
have developed back and knee problems, I don't know ?
> I know a lot of people who get bad knees and bad lower back
> for sitting around all day long.
True
Regards,
Jack.
ShadowJack
> I was just leafing through "Virile Wrestling Champions For The
> Discerning Female Karateka" by R.A. Alvelais when, on 21-juin-01,
> ShadowJack gave us food for thought:
Opps, I apologise Rose, :-).
> Now, now, Helgi *specifically* mentions the low stance risk to knees, so
> you're being unfair. I, on the other hand, kept my post deliberately
> vague and waffly to see what could be drawn from our resident experts.
Perhaps, I disagree about the weight factor, back in 82 I started developing
pain in in my knees and lower back. Just thought I might mention it because
I was five nine and ten & half stone, hardly a heavy weight. Wish I was that
skinny now ;-) .
Jack.
Gabriel Brega
ShadowJack <Wolfj...@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
<snip>
> Anyway, why do you single out shotokan for these kinds of problems ?
>
> Because, I had no history of joint trouble prior to training in Karate,
> because
> the other people I trained with also suffered the same problems, because I
> now believe that forcing the knee out beyond the blade edge of the foot is
> bad practice, because after a long hard look ( from our club instructor )
> he stopped insisting on the pushing of the knee beyond it's natural range
> and within three months the knee problems had almost gone.
I tried now zkd, and I can't see how you guys can do it.
The way we do it is foot blade pointing forward, knee plumb over
toes. To even being able to extend the knee beyond the line of the
front foot 'blade' is very awkward.
But now that we talk about it, I recall my teacher telling me some 4-5
years ago that in a visit to England he had found that they practiced an
abnormally long and low stance, which he found impractical and useless.
And he is a pure Japanese JKA type.
At this point I will conclude that perhaps we are talking about two
different ways of teaching and training. Hard to tell without a visual.
In my experience - and I did have one year out of practice in 1982-3
because of a sweep gone bad, and I finally decided to have surgery
two years ago to clean up the meniscus and tighten up one of my PCL's,
as well as to have a look at how bad my cartilage looks, hence the
Glucosamine I have been taking - low stances per se do not aggravate
my knee condition. Sitting for extended period of time does.
Lower back ? Until 5 years ago I had a severe problem due to a
non-karate related injury. Could'n even stand for extended periods
of time. Then a chiro fixed me, and I could start doing more situps
etc and I stopped getting hurt every time I trained.
But my lower back is still a trigger point, so I kinda know when I do
something wrong and when I do things right, because the feedback is
almost immediate.
What helps me : stretches, situps to strengthen, avoiding lordotic
postures, which by the way are not recommended in shotokan.
That's it - problem gone.
> The back problem is something else entirely, I think was due while I was
> still
> a kyu grade, of over tensing in my stances and techniques, to much dynamic
> tension I might as well have been doing Goju Sanchin,
Sanchin dachi is actually a good stance if you suffer from lower back
tension, imho. Tensing tanden and glutei syncronically allows the
lower back muscles to relax, the way I understand it and feel it.
Gabriel
Gabriel Brega
How about speed ? I remember a few years ago I went through a
period of gym training and I used to push one of those machines
for the non-lifters. I used to do say 3-4 sets of 25 reps with
70 to 90 lbs. After 2-3 months I - and others - noticed an improvement
in the speed of the punch. No noticeable changes in the looks of triceps
or pecs, maybe just a little toning.
Gabriel
Gabriel Brega
>
> >It's not strictly-speaking high vs low reps here, more high vs low
> >stance. Working in low stances, as we're supposed to do in Shotokan,
> >builds up the thigh muscles. Apparently, this is not good for people
> >who are already pretty chunky in that area, and can lead to problems
> >later on, so heavy-set people should go for a relatively higher stance.
> >
>
> That's nonesense. Only potential problem is aesthetic in
> nature. Even then, only *maybe*. For women, they'll be
> fine as long as they lay of the androgen supplements.
>
Seconded. Muscular thighs in women are very attractive.
Hairy muscular thighs less so.
From an evolutionary pov, this is very good : a muscular body
spells healthy little ones. A hairy body suggests mistaken
identity. ( Lola ? I thought... :-)
Gabriel
Roberto A. Alvelais
<Wolfj...@Hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I didn't notice the emoticon after your steroid admonition.
>> I'll assume that you were joking and you forgot to include
>> it. Otherwise I have confirmation of your idiocy.
>> Steroids are dangerous drugs. Ask Lyle Alzado.
>>
>> Rob
>I was having a friendly dig at Helgi, meant as a joke. :-)
>regards,
>Jack.
Like I said, I assumed, correctly, that you were joking.
Rob
R...@jko.com
Roberto A. Alvelais
<Wolfj...@Hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Roberto A. Alvelais" <Hoku...@jko.com> wrote in message
>news:ila4jt4248od27sdi...@4ax.com...
>> I don't agree that shotokan is famous for knee and back
>> problems. However, if I allow your premise for a moment,
>> the reason for knee and back problems are stupid training
>> methodologies that are independant of the style of shotokan.
>> Some of these practices you describe below. Are you
>> implying that ballistic stretching is part of the Shotokan
>> Ryu ha? I never would have thought that.
>
>Hi Rob,
>I can't in all honesty, speak for other styles of shotokan, but
>when I first started training with the KUGB back in 79 ballistic
>stretching was the norm, at least in the clubs that I trained in,
>it was just normal practice at that time period.
>
>
That was pretty much the norm everywhere back in the 70's,
when I started (71) and was starting to die out in the
80's. I guess I was fortunate in that I was young and
resilient and I didn't train that much in college do to a
very heavy course load. After I had graduate, I was
fortunate to hook up with an Olympic Caliber wrestler and
become his assistant wrestling coach. This gentleman was up
on the latest in safe exercise practices. He started me
thinking in terms of sound and safe exercise practices.
This, along with my skills at library research (developed as
an undergrad) helped me to keep abreast of safe practices
and allowed me to influence my instructors in the proper
directions.
Knees shold be in line with the foot. Pushing the knee
outside either edge of the foot is stressing the joint and
isn't indicated AFAIK, or part of the "Cannon". Now trying
to push the knee out in order to maintain the foot/knee
allignment is fine.
>> If done properly, the stances aren't the problem. Attention
>> to the natural allignment of the joints is important.
>
>Right on Rob, good advise. Personally I think it's only fair to
>warn Karateka, against stressing the joints. I don't insist on dogmatically
>pushing the knee out any more, and I try and explain to my own students,
>if their feeling any pain in the joints that they're doing something wrong.
>IMO the most common joint trouble, I've ran across has to do with
>hyper extension of the elbow whilst punching.
>
>
That's what I do too.
Rob
Gabriel Brega
<snip>
that what you're talking about?
>
Yes it is, thank you. My main interest now, along with
tactical development, is to better understand the physiology
of training.
How to maintain and develop strength, speed and endurance,
and how to choose and develop proper training routines for
myself and others. Breathing and eating too.
I do not do this for a living, but since I am doing it, I may as
well do it for my living well, beyond kicking butt :-)
This thread is getting interesting.
Gabriel
Roberto A. Alvelais
<gbr...@sprynet.com> wrote:
>How about speed ?
>Gabriel
There are several components to speed.
Genetics: The relative composition of your muscle fibers
(fast vs. slow twitch)
Efficiency of motion: Say you have this habit of looping
your punch (arching trajectory). That is a longer path in
terms of distance than moving in a straight line. Distance
translates to speed.
Strength.
Obvious. You need, as a minimum, the amount of strength to
accomplish what you're trying to do. For example. Maybe
you can run a fast 40 yrd dash. But can you do it with pads
on? In karate, not only do you need to be able to move
quickly, but you need the strength to move yourself,
explosively to (through?) the point where you can strike or
block.
Reflex.
This is a combination of various things. Experience,
dexterity, and possibly genetics. One need's to recognize a
stimilus and respond quickly.
Rob
R...@jko.com
Roberto A. Alvelais
<gbr...@sprynet.com> wrote:
>
>How to maintain and develop strength, speed and endurance,
>and how to choose and develop proper training routines for
>myself and others. Breathing and eating too.
If you can find it, (it's out of print) try to find the book
"Food for Sport". Bull Publishing Co. Menlo Park CA. Best
book on nutrition as it relates to sport that I've ever
found. No BS, no fads. Just solid, well explained science.
Rob
R...@jko.com
Gabriel Brega
<snip>
> Efficiency of motion: Say you have this habit of looping
> your punch (arching trajectory). That is a longer path in
> terms of distance than moving in a straight line. Distance
> translates to speed.
Do you mean shorter trajectory = shorter time needed = speedier
technique
or
longer trajectory = more acceleration = higher terminal velocity ?
>
> Strength.
> Obvious. You need, as a minimum, the amount of strength to
> accomplish what you're trying to do. For example. Maybe
> you can run a fast 40 yrd dash. But can you do it with pads
> on? In karate, not only do you need to be able to move
> quickly, but you need the strength to move yourself,
> explosively to (through?) the point where you can strike or
> block.
And here is where I always thought - perhaps by observing
people who do weights just to bulk up - that low/medium
resistance and relatively fast motions would strengthen the
muscle and train for speed.
In the gym I was going to we had a runner who used to train his
quads with very long sets of relatively low weights, instead of the
low rep sets of the body builders. And he was pretty muscular
himself, besides having a lot of stamina and speed.
Perhaps it is also a question of resetting your proprioceptors
through those long low resistance sets, so that the arm gets
used to use more of the power available in the motion.
Another interesting thing I read lately, and which an ex-boxer
confirmed to me, is that weaker biceps do not allow the punch
to use the full potential of the triceps. The explanation was that
the 'fear' that the arm 'feels' to hyperextend the elbow is one of
the limits of the speed of the punch, and that this fear is in part
inversely proportional to the ability of the antagonistic muscle
to stop the motion and protect the joint. It made sense.
Gabriel
Roberto A. Alvelais
On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:09:55 -0700, "Gabriel Brega"
<gbr...@sprynet.com> wrote:
>
>Roberto A. Alvelais <Hoku...@jko.com> wrote in message
>news:nn75jtsmu6o9cc4j9...@4ax.com...
><snip>
>> Efficiency of motion: Say you have this habit of looping
>> your punch (arching trajectory). That is a longer path in
>> terms of distance than moving in a straight line. Distance
>> translates to speed.
>
>Do you mean shorter trajectory = shorter time needed = speedier
>technique
>
>or
>
>longer trajectory = more acceleration = higher terminal velocity ?
>
The former.
>>
>> Strength.
>> Obvious. You need, as a minimum, the amount of strength to
>> accomplish what you're trying to do. For example. Maybe
>> you can run a fast 40 yrd dash. But can you do it with pads
>> on? In karate, not only do you need to be able to move
>> quickly, but you need the strength to move yourself,
>> explosively to (through?) the point where you can strike or
>> block.
>
>And here is where I always thought - perhaps by observing
>people who do weights just to bulk up - that low/medium
>resistance and relatively fast motions would strengthen the
>muscle and train for speed.
>
>In the gym I was going to we had a runner who used to train his
>quads with very long sets of relatively low weights, instead of the
>low rep sets of the body builders. And he was pretty muscular
>himself, besides having a lot of stamina and speed.
It would make sense that the runner would train for
endurance.
I think that taking the time to find a competant, certified
strength coach (National College of Sports Medicine or is
that American College of Sports Medicine or National
Athletic Trainers Association certification.) to put
together the proper program for your goals.
The entire cross training program needs to be looked at.
When I was competing, not only did I utilize a strength
training program (High weight, low rep) but also a
plyometirc program to help with the explosiveness aspect of
strength. Of course, my program included flexibility
training as well. One of the sadly unusual things that I
did was to consult a very highly regarded Athletic Trainer
who was also a physical therapist and a Ph.D. in Kinesiology
to help me put together my training program. As for
endurance, as Rose indicated, the low/ hi rep is part and
parcel of karate training.
A joke:
Q: How many "Traditional" Karateka does it take to change a
lightbulb?
answer below:
>
>Perhaps it is also a question of resetting your proprioceptors
>through those long low resistance sets, so that the arm gets
>used to use more of the power available in the motion.
>
I'm not sure how one goes about that, but Oshiro does
something that may be along these lines. He snaps his
elbows in a backfisting motion. Of course it doesn't hurt
the elbows (don't go to that extreme) but maybe that could
be it? Your boxer (below) is correct.
>Another interesting thing I read lately, and which an ex-boxer
>confirmed to me, is that weaker biceps do not allow the punch
>to use the full potential of the triceps. The explanation was that
>the 'fear' that the arm 'feels' to hyperextend the elbow is one of
>the limits of the speed of the punch, and that this fear is in part
>inversely proportional to the ability of the antagonistic muscle
>to stop the motion and protect the joint. It made sense.
>
>Gabriel
>
I believe it's called the Golgi stretch reflex. It's where
the Golgi stretch receptors in the tendon causes the
antagonistic muscle to contract in order to protect the
joint.
Rob
A: Just one, but he's got to do it over and over, and
over......
R...@jko.com
the_peanut_gallery
It's a good one, but I don't think it does the upper spine quite as
well. If you prefer doing it as part of the stretching, what about the
one where you sit with one leg stretched out and the other hooked
across it, the heel as close to you as you can get. Then you place the
elbow of the straight-leg side arm on the opposite side of the knee of
the hooked leg and use it as a lever to turn your whole upper body,
head included, as far round in that direction as you can go. Very good
for the cervicals.
I notice as I grow older that this type of exercise is now a far better
warm-up for me than all that running and jumping stuff (keep the
kicking exercises though, 'sgood for the hips).
--
Rose Humphrey
fin_fa...@webtv.net
Well, well, not necessarily.One nees to know what is untrue as much as
what is true to avoid wrong paths that get you bad places or nowhere:-).
Larn from kata, listen to your body, find ways of moving, standing, and
doing techniques more effetively and more efficiently.
Try some judo, some Aikido, or some shaolin chin na, jiujitsu, other
type stuff, see what it can teach you about your own art(s).
Try doing your atas on the other side, moving in reverse order,
imagining that someone is attacking you in different ways, ie holding,
choking, gappling, striking, kicking, weapons, and see if any of your
moves work really well that way.
if your kata goes one direction, what if it went the reverse direction?
What if one move is the attack and the next the defense? Wha if one move
shows what you react to, and the other shows how to follow up?
Play around with the kata.
You may not get all, but you'll get something.
Knowing Taika Oyata's way works efficiently is something to know.
Knowing the others got what they got through seeing him a then figured
rest of their own stuff out, is worth knowing too.
As for Chris Thomas, Tom Countryman that is, he's a good writer.
But he ain't never been where he could see the real deal.
When you do, it looks like chain smokestack lightning, rattlesnake fast
and cobra deadly.:-)
Its like seeing a Mongoose at work.It feels like, well, electricity and
fire inside of you when it hits.
Now the other guys, they got some moves, and the moves may work but they
tend to work better on believers.
real stuff takes you out believe it or don't believe it.Agonizingly,
too.Hurts so bad you almost laugh at how bad it hurts.
Is it secret? Well, its like this: Learn to move naturally and it comes
naturally.But it takes a good teacher or really, you never find most of
it at all. Maybe a little. But luck in a good teacher is a lot, a lot.
fin_fa...@webtv.net
That's because the truth is other than what is being told .
fin_fa...@webtv.net
karateka type match.. I bet the outcome would be different?'
Wiebe asks.
Well, apropos of this, the Utimate Fighting Championship outlaws all
point striking technques and all small circle and therefore karate
locking techniques fromm competition.
I wonder why.:-)
I mean, I am not saying here, that the old style karate guys could whup
all these contact fighters, but it does make one wonder why a so called
No Holds Barred contes, the one that started the current ones in fact,
did after only a few goes, outlaw these particular techniques.
Guy named Keith Hackney, of a Kempo style, not Okinawan, but using a
White Crane he said, Kung Fu Palm strike to the jaw, droppped a sumo
wrestler fast.
I am not sure who was responsible for the outlawing of finger and wrist
locks.
One shot takeout moves, both striking and locking/grappling, exist.This
is not mycosidered thery, not m considered belief, not my faith, or even
my certain knowedge of first hand experience.
This is the truth, and I have done them.Nor am I the only one.By a long
shot. Now you call it what you will. but the subtle little things one
learns to do to make strikes, locks and throws more effective until
someone csan not resist them, are a part of what made the
karate/kempo/kung fu men and women of old, and some today, so incredibly
effective.Its not supernatural, its a different approach.
Instead of the More Power, approach,the more distance, more height,
more smackum, more flexibilty, more athletics,and more good looking,
instread of the hit 'em right boxing approach, which itself is more
effective than the first, it's learn body dynamics so that when you
apply a technique, even one spontaneously created on principles the kata
properly understood and practiced hardwire into you,it is more effective
than it could otherwise be.
Let's use an analogy from Aikido or Jujitsu.The hold known in Aikido as
NIkkyo is a powerful and effective technique that can work well in self
defense.
If its underlying principles are understood, instead of one technique it
becomes many.
If its little things, mechanical principles, are also known it becomes
not only effective but more efficient.
First thing about nikkyo anyone must know is never turn the opponenent's
arm or wrist more than ninety degrees up, or before the hold is
completed he can spin on you and strike you.Ninety degrees up, and no
one can spin.Less, and they can escape, more and they can spin a la
Heian Sandan .Same for ikkyo.
Now in karate, there are similar things.Ninety degree flat seiken is for
practice and not hurting kids who do it.
Forty five degree, now, that is something else.
Blocking.How much power do you need in blocking depends entirely on what
angle of arm and interception you use.
Block with a ninety degree uchi uke, either one.Now try with a forty
five.Oh what a difference that forty five degree makes.
Now block with the flat side of the arm. Interesting, huh?
Now what if instead of an arm block you backfist the wrist or attacking
arm or hammerfist the kicking leg where it'll do some good?Yes, you must
have skill to hit the target, let's say you do, and now do it.
What does uke call you?:-)
Now your 'blocks' are strikes to the attacking limb.
Now change the arm angle and stepforty five or ninety degrees to the
side as you strike the attacking limb.Your other hand is in guard, not
chamber, what now can you hit? Anything you want to? Well, how right you
are@!:-)
Just a few changes and now you are doing some more reasonabe KRott-Tay!
So now we want to do something a little more effective. Okay, use the
knife hand to strike the attacking limbs, on pressure points or
vulnerable lines.Yowch dang that hoits!
Now use the unbder part of the knfe hand receving(shuto uke) to hit the
limb and follow up( not really hittting) to vulnerable zone with the
'blocking' knife hand.
Whap whap!Popop!
Heian Nidan/Pinan shodan fan series comes to mind.How many times are you
hitting someone during the four shuto fan
series? Eight, minimum, really fast.Lose the kokutsu dachi and use a
fudo dachi for good root and better movement.Crescent step, like in
zenkutsu, there's the lad.
Now you are working some karate out of kata.Bear in mind its defense,
you are not in a ring with a Muay Thai guy, letting him have distance
and attacking him.
Some guy jumps you and is up on you, now popop, popop,whabap smackak.
Took out both arms , a leg, and hit both sides of his body on vulnerable
zones, less time than it took to say that.
He falls down, you're out of there.That's the old way theoretically,
when someone was going to jump you close in and unexpectedly. Of course
that doesn't happen today, does it?
Does it?
fin_fa...@webtv.net
plyometric.'
Well pjhilosophically they are, as the kung fu philosophy is to put you
in a position where you MUST, physically have to, improve.
As for instance:Side kick training in karate usually is done standing
up. You can get better or you can not, up to you.Kaate inda ;laissez
faire these days, anyway, most places, not saying you or me or many, but
most.
Kuontao master made us lie on the floor curled on our sides, kick
straight up from floor.Couple hours of this, you stand up and side kick,
side kick better.No choice, you have to be.
Want to learn balance in a Horse stance?
Karate says, stand in the horse stance,walk init, kick from it, and you
get as good as you want to get.
Kuontao Shaolin Tiger style sifu say up on that saw horse with the
rickety legs, now stand inorse stance, now step and trun in horse
stance, now get back up:-), now stand and turn and side kick in horse
stance on that saw horse, get back up, breakfalls need work:-).
Want to front kick less telegraphically? Karate says work on relaxing
this, that, keeping staight up, now practice, some get it , some don't.
Kuontao sifu says, here's a six foot staff, here's a mirror, look in the
mirror, hold the staff right down frot of the body, now kick, see your
body sway, keep it straight inline with the staff, adjust till it gets
that way. Shadowless kick.
Wnat to circle block and cross block and punch automaically?karate as
some pretty good kungfu drills here,. Kuontao blindfols both people,
cross at wrists, now block soft and punch accurately, don't lose
contact,and when you do, re establish and reblindfold and go on for a
half an hour.
Feel it first before you see it. Now take that bindfols off, now go on
and block and punch.
Sort of plyometric philosophy of training.
See what i mean?YMMV.
John
fin_fa...@webtv.net
avoid injury.'
Yes. That's why I recommend Tom Kutz stuff. He goes into all that stuff
scientifically.
fin_fa...@webtv.net
me, I can do a kata such that it will scare the Hark right out of them.
That actually can work, too.