Shorin-Ryu compared to Shotokan
FRAPAT99
dojos in NYC, I was just wondering how Matsubayashi-Ryu (Shorin-Ryu) Karate
compares (not who is better) to Shotokan, since the best deal in terms of
price, hours per week I may train, number of students (only 5-10 a class), and
location teaches this style. Thanks.
ven...@webtv.net
'ai Chi Ch'uan compares to Yang Style T'ai Chi Ch'uan.
Shotokan is big frame, long range, power based and linear, emphasizing
the three K's_Kihon, Kata and Kumite.Lots of basics are emphasize, and
trained in an extremely technically detailed manner, if you have good
instruction.
Favorite stance in Shotokan are Zenkutsudachi and Jiyu Kamae, a
modification of zenkutsu used in free sparring.
All three K's in Shotokan are done for maximum power and speed.Subtlety
and finesse are taught or learned at a later stage.
Shorin-ryu Matsubyashi is a small-frame,short range speed and
agility-based style using the snap of the muscles surrounding the
joints to deliver atemi, shocking force.
They don't do hip rotation, use either front or side facing posture to
fight, and usually fight in a cat stance, at which they are very
good.The style emphasizes eigheen kata as its core training methods, but
also will use a lot of basics practice and combinations training.
Shorin techniques are done for maximum speed and agility, in close.When
attacked the main strategy is to go to a forty-five degree angle in a
cat stancewinding up right next to their opponent, whom they proceed to
tear up.
Emphasis is on develping atemi, kata and self-defense techniques.
Shotokan people, conversely, like to come in straight on, using a
half-facing position to make you miss and from which they block, if so
inclined, and counter.In Shotokan Kumite,punching comes first, with
kicking and footsweeping second and striking third.Dodging is also used,
but often a contest of two Shotokan fihters resembles two freight trains
clashing.
Shotokan and shorin ryu kata are similar but done somewhat differently.
Shotokan kata may be better for overall physical conditioning, and
shorin kata are more easily adapted to actual use because of the shorter
stances and close in techniques.
It is not hard to adapt the Shotokan forms for similar use, however,
and the training method of Shotokan produces the world's strongest
kihon.
Hopes this helps.
John Genjumin Vengel.
James Goldman
ven...@webtv.net wrote:
>
> They don't do hip rotation
Doesn't this detract from the amount of power they can put behind a
technique?
> When attacked the main strategy is to go to a forty-five degree angle
> in a cat stancewinding up right next to their opponent, whom they
> proceed to tear up.
<snip>
> Shotokan people, conversely, like to come in straight on, using a
> half-facing position to make you miss and from which they block
I've noticed a lot of techniques appear to end in a front facing
stance. I've wondered about this, since it would seem to leave you more
open to the next attack.
For blocks, we are being taught to rotate to a more sideways stance, but
for the counterstrike, we're always back to facing the opponent
squarely. This makes sense, I suppose, because the rotation away from
the opponent during a block can then give you more wind-up for the
counterstrike. But it seems to me you'd have to move pretty damn fast
for this to be effective. Not only that, but my natural reaction to an
attacker is to turn to a 45 degree angle to reduce the chance of being
hit in the solar plexus or "generals".
Is this practical? Is it just a training thing, or do we develop the
necessary speed later on? Is there any such thing as a "training thing"?
James
Second hand wisdom alert:
If God had meant us to drink water, he wouldn't have given us beer.
Gabriel Soto
> agility-based style using the snap of the muscles surrounding the
> joints to deliver atemi, shocking force.
>
> They don't do hip rotation, use either front or side facing posture to
> fight, and usually fight in a cat stance, at which they are very
> good.The style emphasizes eigheen kata as its core training methods, but
> also will use a lot of basics practice and combinations training.
>
> Shorin techniques are done for maximum speed and agility, in close.When
> tear up.
>
> Emphasis is on develping atemi, kata and self-defense techniques.
Everything is remarkably correct except for two minor issues: The
predominant fighting stance is a cross between zenkutsu dachi and shizentai
dachi. A more important point is that we do, in fact use hip rotation quite
alot in our style.
ven...@webtv.net
posted:"Everything is remarkably correct except for two minor issues.The
predominant fighting stance is a cross between zekutsu dachi and
shizentai dachi."
Well, it wasn't in 1972-3.It was either shizentai dachi or cat stance
then.:-) Of course, we may be in the opposite camps, too-and they do
things a little differently.
"A more important point is that we do, in fact, use hip rotation quite a
lot in our style."
Again, not the way I was taught.Unless you refer to hip
positioning(koshi o ireru) as in Yoko zuki in jigotai, and stuff like
that.
I know that there have been changes made.We used to use Naihanchi stance
in all kata where jigotai is now used,and there used to be a sideward
slide in kiba(naihanchi) stance in Fukyu Gata ni where there is only a
step in Jigotai now, and things like that.Perhaps the changes since then
have been that great?
Matsbayashi Ryu is one of my styles, and has been since 1972.But I was
taught possibly a variation of it, by a student of James Wax and Frank
Grant, and Mr. Grant also helped me with it on several occasions.I used
to visit his Dojo a lot, he was a very nice person and quite helpful,
and all his yudansha were also.I watched their training many times, and
they did not do hip rotation in the way that Shotokan and many other
Japanese styles do.
Having said that, I have visited websites on Matsubayashi ryu and some
of the animations of Kata and Kumite do not look like the way I was
taught.Others do.The Kata and kumite are the same, but there does appear
to be hip rotation beng done and wider stances in use.
Again, either I was taught a variation, or it has changed, or different
schools of it have finally done it different ways.
Regards, John
ven...@webtv.net
in a technique." (Shorin Ryu not doing rotation.)
Wilford Vengel kindly answers:Yep, but it also makes 'em faster than
blue lightning.It's a trade-off, you see. And the snap with which they
throw , causes a vibrating zap that goes right through your body and
hurts like holy blazes.
It's the Right thing to do.:-)
As for chosen means of response.You can stand facing front and make the
opponent try to block, or go to a forty five and make the opponent
miss.It's a matter of choice.
Now a shorin ryu counter will not blast an opponent across the room like
a shotokan counter can, but it will drop him right in frot of you,
straight down,making it easier to keep track.
Different styles are different because of different preference and
emphasis.
Depends on what effect you're after.
John
Gabriel Soto
Agreed. I don't have the experience to speak for Shotokan, but Matsubayashi
Ryu is damn scary to watch. It makes one thankful that what one has just
seen wasn't just applied to him/her.
Gabe
DevonErik
>As for chosen means of response.You can stand facing front and make the
>opponent try to block, or go to a forty five and make the opponent
>miss.
Of course, outside of competition, one doesn't really do a whole lot of
standing this way or that...when using this stuff one stands however one is
standing when attacked, one moves contstantly until the threat is removed, then
one stands however is convenient.
Someone who's trying hurt you tends not to wait for an opening much. He'll just
come at you, forcing you to respond. A neutral or 'sparring' stance really
isn't the order of the day no matter what set of techniques one is using.
>Now a shorin ryu counter will not blast an opponent across the room like
>a shotokan counter can, but it will drop him right in frot of you,
>straight down,making it easier to keep track.
Actually, a good punch in either style will tend to drop your opponent on the
spot. Any significant knockback probably means that the punch is being pushed
rather than thrown; a sign that you are wasting power.
Devon Erik Oslund
"If a man speaks to you of his Honor, make him pay cash...in advance."
ven...@webtv.net
I should have said, stand toe to toe and whale on the opponent making
him worry about blocking you-usually while moving into his territory-a
tactic often employed in Okinawan styles and not infrequently by
Shotokan fighters, some of whom in my tournament days-thankfully few-I
ran head-on into.
This actually led to me learning Shotokan somewhat on the side.
I found that they and I liked the same things!:-)
As to dropping opponent versus blasting them, and the latter being a
sign of wasted energy, nonsense.
It is a matter of choice.If you have the capability of blasting the
opponent ten feet back, in many stuations that can end a confrontation
and give you time to get out of the area.I will note that usually trusts
and kicks that do this do no seriously injure the opponent, but knock
them down and wind them.
In a multiple attack scenario, a knock back thrust or kick can do jobs
other moves can not.
But for control and /or finishing techniques, putting 'em down right i
front of you is the thing to do.
I referred to the fact that with a good hip rotation lockout technique,
you can knock the opponent back a good ways-but this is not done in
Matsubayasi Ryu.In Kenpo and Shotokan, it can be.
Now some will say, it's only a push.Ok-I push someone ten feet away,
hard and fast, and knock them on their keister, how eager are they
gonna be to get right back up and come after the receding me, since by
then I'm running away? And perhaps more to the point, how fast Can they
do this?
Granted, Devon, this is no highly skilled advanced technique-but it
works.T'ai Chi people spend a lot of time on pushing for this very
reason.It is a karate technique, like locking, throwing and holding, but
has fallen into disuse as a result of tournaments not giving a point for
it.
Good thing to remember-sometimes simple is best and easiest and most
effective.
John
Roberto A. Alvelais
the "harnessing" of power from your legs, waist and feet into your
hands. If you push *really* fast, you have a palm heel strike.
Tell you what though, if you push me and pop me up and back a few
feet, I'm going to come back swinging a chair or something.
Intimidated, no. Determined, probably. Now, if you push me in the
path of an oncoming bus, maybe you got something there.
On Thu, 6 May 1999 23:48:06 -0500 (EST), ven...@webtv.net wrote:
>Granted, Devon, this is no highly skilled advanced technique-but it
>works.T'ai Chi people spend a lot of time on pushing for this very
>reason.It is a karate technique, like locking, throwing and holding, but
>has fallen into disuse as a result of tournaments not giving a point for
>it.
"Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world."
-Dave Barry
ven...@webtv.net
Ryu,such as Yoko zuki and gyaku zuki, bu these are decidedly for
emergency situations when you can not get to the side, ie trapped in a
narrow hallway, or some such thing.
Certain other techniques are taught for what are called managing a way
out of a desperate situation.One of them is nidan-geri from a neko ashi
dachi.
Techniques done from front stance or side stance sometimes fall into
this categor.Usually yor sorin fighter prefers to operate from natural
or cat stance, at least in the school in which I received training.
Interestingly, the cat stance can also change into a flat footed equal
weighted stance(I call it a flat cat)resembling a very short kokutsu
with rear foot turned in at a forty-five degree angle,which gives more
protection in addition to power and stabilty.This change also occurs in
the shorin ryu kata ,such as pinan.
John
ven...@webtv.net
I respond: In case of attack by skilled martial artist, recommended
direction of push is off a high precipice.
However as you mention: T'ai Chi push tends to pop you up and back.But
in original T'ai Chi as in Kenpo, direction of Push is back and down,
distance at least ten feet, and which gives the doer of technique a
several second head start, d'you see, and then it's who's the faster
runner.
So what we have here is a choice to knock back, down and away over a
choice to inflict greater damage.
Judgement call.Opponent as determined as you would be, would require,
d'you see, special attention at close range, as would I.Push won't stop
me, neither.:-)
John