Ki and Karate
GaleNinja_1
I've just started praticing shotokan karate. I like it very much, my sensei
says that I've good chances to be a good one in this style.
I'd like to know about what is Ki energy often discussed in martial arts and
how can I develop this energy praticing karate!
Thank you
Gab
Jake
<gale_...@libero.it> wrote:
>I'd like to know about what is Ki energy often discussed in martial arts and
>how can I develop this energy praticing karate!
Maybe it doesn't exist at all:
http://www.skepdic.com/chi.html
Pay attention to your bullshit meter.
-Jake
Paul
"Jake" <newton...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3fbeb460....@news.west.earthlink.net...
Wondered when this subject was gonna pop up! I don't really believe in Qi
(Ki, Chi, Chi Kung, Tai Chi, Qi Qong etc.) aswell but I've seen a few shows
on the DC about it that really blew my mind. One of the things they proved
was that as a practitioner of this lets his Qi grow his body temperature in
those areas increase. They also 'sensed' it with infra-red. I saw with my
own eyes how a Qi practitioner broke a brick with his palm and a sword by
poking himself with it without hurting himself. Check out this link for a
non-sceptic view (I'm indifferent, really) http://qi-journal.com/index.asp
Regards,
.:Paul
Jake
wrote:
> Check out this link for a
>non-sceptic view (I'm indifferent, really) http://qi-journal.com/index.asp
And monitor your bullshit meter.
Why do people suspend critical thinking when it comes to certain
areas?
-Jake
Larry R Morton
"Paul" <paulst...@mweb.co.za> wrote in message
news:3fc0b...@news1.mweb.co.za...
Simon Slavin
"Paul" <paulst...@mweb.co.za> wrote:
>One of the things they proved
>was that as a practitioner of this lets his Qi grow his body temperature in
>those areas increase. They also 'sensed' it with infra-red.
Oh bollocks. I can do the same thing myself, and I don't believe
in Chi. You concentrate on throughts that make your blood flow
faster (i.e. enrage yourself, or think of yourself fighting).
This forces the blood vessels to get closer to the skin. This
raises the temperature of your skin. It's easy to do wit
practise and the results are easily visible with one of those
infra-red cameras.
>I saw with my
>own eyes how a Qi practitioner broke a brick with his palm and a sword by
>poking himself with it without hurting himself.
Again I can get the same results, but this time I need
methamphetamines.
Santos L. Halper
sla...@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) wrote:
I'm usually pretty skeptical myself but once saw a documentary about a
group of monks (possibly in Tibet) who went up into snow covered
mountains in only their robes. They got on their knees and curled up
and started praying (meditating, concentrating, what have you) and made
their body temperatures rise quite dramatically. They then placed wet
sheets on their bodies and proceded to dry them with their body heat.
Meanwhile the film crew, dressed head to toe in arctic expedition
weather gear was freezing their toes off.
Pretty impressive display of mind over matter (isn't that what Qi is in
the first place?)
Jake
<san...@snpp.com> wrote:
>Pretty impressive display of mind over matter (isn't that what Qi is in
>the first place?)
More likely a parlor trick, or maybe even something more sinister. Of
course the film crew was working for an outfit that had a stake in
this production.
-Jake
Alex
news:pVvvb.137284$e6.49...@twister2.libero.it...
If I would recommend anything for people who are doing karate or taekwondo
and they want to become involved with practicing ki or qigong, I would say
try to find somewhere you can practice I-Chuan/Dachengchuan or 8 Pieces
Of Brocade qigong.
Unfortunately, Ki training is an aspect of karate that is both essential for
a complete understanding of the art, and the most neglected. It is mostly
neglected because it isn't taught, because it seems alien to western culture
(which it really isn't if you go back to Greeks like Plato and Aristotle) and
because it is much more difficult to teach than simple techniques.
Ki is emphasised in some Okinawan arts, but only at higher levels
of experience, and very rarely in Japanese karate.
If you want to cut right to the chase, I Chuan (Yi Quan) as a discipline
is ideal to supplement most martial arts, because it is just about learning
stance training, chi/ki and fighting and because it has no forms to learn
of it's own. Also, whatever you learn about stance training in I Chuan
can also be applied to karate stances, for instance.
Check out my website at
http://www.martialhub.com/chinese_internal/chinese_taichi.html#yichuan
If you are in the UK, there even a couple of UK I Quan links there.
Alex
--
For martial arts links see http://www.martialhub.com/
Karate, Taekwondo, Filipino, Indonesian, and Indo-Chinese martial arts
Jake
wrote:
>"GaleNinja_1" <gale_...@libero.it> schreef in bericht
>news:pVvvb.137284$e6.49...@twister2.libero.it...
>> Hi every body
>> I've just started praticing shotokan karate. I like it very much, my sensei
>> says that I've good chances to be a good one in this style.
>> I'd like to know about what is Ki energy often discussed in martial arts and
>> how can I develop this energy praticing karate!
>> Thank you
>> Gab
>
>If I would recommend anything for people who are doing karate or taekwondo
>and they want to become involved with practicing ki or qigong, I would say
>try to find somewhere you can practice I-Chuan/Dachengchuan or 8 Pieces
>Of Brocade qigong.
>
>Unfortunately, Ki training is an aspect of karate that is both essential for
>a complete understanding of the art, and the most neglected.
Did you read the link I posted saying there is no evidence Ki exists
in the first place? What did you think? If you disagree, why?
> It is mostly
>neglected because it isn't taught,
Maybe it doesn't exist.
>because it seems alien to western culture
What would be cultural about an alleged form of energy?
-Jake
Alex
"Jake" <newton...@ix.netcom.com> schreef in bericht
news:3fc0c177...@news.west.earthlink.net...
Yo Paul,
Why is the idea of Chi/Ki so threatening to you?
Alex
Alex
Well this is the problem. If you don't believe in it, you never
(at least consciously) get to experience it.
It really isn't that difficult a concept, but it is useless practicing
Tai CHI, when you don't believe in Chi.
It's like this. When you build up energy strongly enough
(through meditation or stance training or whatever), at some
point, it becomes strong enough where you can sense it moving
on its own. The energy basically moves from areas where it is
highly concentrated, to areas where there is little concentration.
If the energy flows properly, it properly aligns your body to
transfer the maximum amount of force with the minimum amount
of effort. The force with which you can hit multiplies several times.
But hey, you don't believe in it, so you'll never experience it.
I only pity your future students, because they will never experience
it either.
You don't have to believe in "empty force" or whatever. However,
chi is not something you believe in, but something you practice.
Alex
GaleNinja_1
I feel that with only external power I'm really weak....I can be good
fighter in karate, but I won't get far....I need more power...that's my
cause.
Gab
Jake
wrote:
>Well this is the problem. If you don't believe in it, you never
>(at least consciously) get to experience it.
Do you see the circular logic in this statement?
I'll ask again: Did you read the article I posted? Here:
http://www.skepdic.com/chi.html
>It's like this. When you build up energy strongly enough
>(through meditation or stance training or whatever), at some
>point, it becomes strong enough where you can sense it moving
>on its own. The energy basically moves from areas where it is
>highly concentrated, to areas where there is little concentration.
>
>If the energy flows properly, it properly aligns your body to
>transfer the maximum amount of force with the minimum amount
>of effort.
There are only a few kinds of energy identified by science. This
description does not seem to be congruent with what we know about
energy.
>The force with which you can hit multiplies several times.
Would you please rephrase this perhaps? I don't understand your
meaning.
>
>But hey, you don't believe in it, so you'll never experience it.
Same circular logic as before.
The reason I don't believe it is that there is no evidence that chi
exists.
All martial arts performances can be explained by "physiology", and
there is a great wealth of information on this. This body of knowlege
includes theories that are shown to be true by scientific methods.
This is simply not the case with chi.
>I only pity your future students, because they will never experience
>it either.
Yeah whatever. You're the one who seems to believe in "chi" for no
good reason.
> However,
>chi is not something you believe in, but something you practice.
That's strange, as you had said this twice:
>"But hey, you don't believe in it, so you'll never experience it."
Implying belief was a prerequisite. Which is it, Alex?
-Jake
Jake
wrote:
>> And monitor your bullshit meter.
>>
>> Why do people suspend critical thinking when it comes to certain
>> areas?
>
>Yo Paul,
That was "Jake".
>Why is the idea of Chi/Ki so threatening to you?
You misunderstand. I am not threatened by things that don't exist.
-Jake
Alex
The best way I have found to improve both is stance training.
There is a good booklet out on it from a I Quan master called
Lee Kam Chuey. All you ever need to know about stance
training.
The good thing about stance training, is that it is easily integrated
with almost any martial art. Because it increases the power you
can generate trough your stance, it also increases your punching
and kicking power. I personally find it a lot easier for building
chi than "breathing" and other methods.
http://www.martialhub.com/chinese_internal/chinese_taichi.html#yichuan
Grey Ghost
I wonder??
Jake
Grey Ghost
borne out of fear. Although, "railing" is probably a slight hyperbole.
"Jake" <newton...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3fcd3c66...@news.west.earthlink.net...
Jake
I can speak only for myself and this particular case. We are speaking
about the purported existance of "chi" in particular, by "Alex".
I "rail" against those who assert things that can't be substantiated.
Think about raised nail heads in the floor that must be given the
hammer.
It has nothing to do with fear.
-Jake
Grey Ghost
"Jake" <newton...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3fce8783....@news.west.earthlink.net...
> On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:38:05 -0800, "Grey Ghost"
> <lar...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >Railings against the beliefs of another such as seen here are typically
> >borne out of fear.
>
> I can speak only for myself and this particular case. We are speaking
> about the purported existance of "chi" in particular, by "Alex".
>
> I "rail" against those who assert things that can't be substantiated.
However, can one scientifically prove the non-exisitence of "chi"? Perhaps
the existence is proven by the number of those who accept and believe.
Scepticism fails to prove anything.
> Think about raised nail heads in the floor that must be given the
> hammer.
Good metaphor, but, they are their nail heads for their own concern.
The truth is, to those who believe, it is fact. To those who don't believe,
that is fact. Rarely will anything change either position.
>
> It has nothing to do with fear.
"Fear" can be a two edged sword. "apprehension / reverence".
>
> -Jake
Piotr Neuman
It is scientifically proven that if a man believes he is strong then he is
really stronger (compared to his 'nominal' ablilty) an able to perfom at
the true maximum of his capabilities.
Your will can make ki real (at least for you :) ). As buddha said if you
aren't sure of something practice it and see the results for yourself.
Being sceptic is not good enough...
Jake
<lar...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>However, can one scientifically prove the non-exisitence of "chi"?
Of course not. It is impossible to prove a negative. The onus is on
the claimant to provide evidence for their claims. This was already
brought up in this thread.
>Perhaps
>the existence is proven by the number of those who accept and believe.
That's silly. Wishfull thinking is not evidence for the existence of
something, nor is popularity.
"Proof" involves evidence. There is no evidence of "chi".
>Scepticism fails to prove anything.
Skepticism is not for proving things. It's for keeping people honest,
particularly to themselves.
>> Think about raised nail heads in the floor that must be given the
>> hammer.
>Good metaphor, but, they are their nail heads for their own concern.
Not in a public forum. If someone is going to make false claims in
public they should get nailed for it. They can cover their butts by
knowing what they talk about.
>The truth is, to those who believe, it is fact.
A "false belief" is not a fact. Those millions of children who
believe in Santa Claus eventually find out. Why not the adults on
certain popular falsehoods?
I think Elmar had a reasonable take on this subject in his post.
> Rarely will anything change either position.
When one reexamines beliefs in the light of rational thinking one can
change their beliefs. I once believed those who talked about "chi"
until I realized there was a lack of evidence.
What won't change is that "chi" believers will fail to present
evidence of it's existance.
>"Fear" can be a two edged sword. "apprehension / reverence".
Your original reference to fear was and still is irrelevant to the
discussion on the existence "chi".
It amazes, the capacity for people to willingly deceive themselves.
-Jake
Jake
>It is scientifically proven that if a man believes he is strong then he is
>really stronger (compared to his 'nominal' ablilty) an able to perfom at
>the true maximum of his capabilities.
Source? If true, what does this prove? We are discussing the
existence of "chi".
> As buddha said if you
>aren't sure of something practice it and see the results for yourself.
In the world of martial arts achievment "physiology" is the only
explanation. It's a complete explanation and there is a great body of
history and knowledge of this *science*.
>Being sceptic is not good enough...
Good enough for what? I find a healthy dose of skepticism to be
extremely liberating.
-Jake
Piotr Neuman
wheter it is usefull or not - they yust whine ;).
Jake
>My point is that scepticts do not try to practice Ki exercises, and find out
>wheter it is usefull or not - they yust whine ;).
That's not much of a point. Far better would be to bolster your case
for the existence of "ki" or "chi".
BTW, please tell me about a "ki excercise".
-Jake
Grey Ghost
>
> It amazes, the capacity for people to willingly deceive themselves.
>
> -Jake
Quite true.
To me it seems that the journey to acquire "chi" is more important than
whether or not it exists. It is never wrong to strive to improve. I wonder
if maybe the original idea behind "chi" wasn't some sort idea meant to
inspire one to seek improvement. Then men distorted it into a belief in
something tangible. Part of the need humans seem to have to seek something
greater than themselves.
Piotr Neuman
Jake
<lar...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I wonder
>if maybe the original idea behind "chi" wasn't some sort idea meant to
>inspire one to seek improvement.
Perhaps true, but the usual definition revolves around a "universal
energy" that is in all things, and that one can learn to "control the
flow" of this energy within themselves and "harmonize" with the energy
in the world. As for improving one's self, there is no doubt that
with training one can improve the performance of one's martial art
related abilities. But this can be explained by the ordinary and
normal response to training, that one naturally gets better in
something that they do often, due to increased ability to relax,
coordinate, and otherwise execute the movement. There typically would
be an increase in the confidence around these abilities as well.
>Then men distorted it into a belief in
>something tangible.
If this is what happened then let's admit as much a move on.
-Jake
Jake
>Use www.google.com luke... ;)
OK, plug in "ki excecise" and I come across:
http://www.bodymindandmodem.com/CoolKi/Unbend.html
LOL! The classic parlor trick with an *ordinary* explanation!! Read
here:
Be sure to "rub the magic wand" at the bottom or click here:
http://ofinterest.net/ua/arm2.html#1
The same site gives us some ordinary calisthenics:
http://www.bodymindandmodem.com/KiEx/KiEx.html
Unimpressive.
-Jake
Piotr Neuman
Jake
>Sorry for my spelling... :( you got me there...
I put it in as "ki exercise". No matter, this is a sideshow anyway.
-Jake
Toni
Do you believe in bad Karma? Well I must have felt a disturbance in
the force unconsciously. See this is the first time I have popped in
and read AMAKS in months and I thought I saw...something that might be
confused as me, but it doesn't sound like me. :)
Anyways, if there was an attempt to deceive any good people here, want
to set the record straight: Grey Ghost is NOT the Gray Ghost that
posted a few years ago on AMAKS.
Also, Nice job on keeping it going to all that are still here.
Grey Ghost, stop with the cute sound bites, you sound like a jerk.
XOXOX
Toni
newton...@ix.netcom.com (Jake) wrote in message news:<3fcf43d3...@news.west.earthlink.net>...
Jake
Thanks for clearing that up. No offence to anyone, but at times
everyone looks alike, you know what I mean?
-Jake
Grey Ghost
Grey Ghost
"Toni" <gray_gho...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:79ef2651.0312...@posting.google.com...
Grey Ghost
Paul
viewpoint, something both you and Jake and the other contributors to this
LONG thread may want to do. We get looped discussions if we don't.
Regards,
.:Paul
"Alex" <avdeele...@wanadoo.nl> wrote in message
news:3fcb94e4$0$56500$1b62...@news.wanadoo.nl...
>
> "Jake" <newton...@ix.netcom.com> schreef in bericht
> news:3fc0c177...@news.west.earthlink.net...
> > On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 15:59:05 +0200, "Paul" <paulst...@mweb.co.za>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Check out this link for a
> > >non-sceptic view (I'm indifferent, really)
http://qi-journal.com/index.asp
> >
> > And monitor your bullshit meter.
> >
> > Why do people suspend critical thinking when it comes to certain
> > areas?
>
> Yo Paul,
>
> Why is the idea of Chi/Ki so threatening to you?
>
> Alex
>
>
Jake
wrote:
>Threatening? I was merely looking at it from a broader, more receptive
>viewpoint, something both you and Jake and the other contributors to this
>LONG thread may want to do. We get looped discussions if we don't.
He was talking to me I'm pretty sure. I'd read Elmar's post for what
I think is a reasonable "broad" perspective.
-Jake
John C Dye
Just going back to the issue of specious or uncritical claims
as typified by the idea of ki. Describing the feeling of
certain actions as a <flow> of energy through the body is a useful
concept in teaching. I personally don't believe that there is an
<emanation> which can be directed out of the body or anything like that.
However, if the teacher is attempting to convey an abstract idea
it is usually helpful to try to put it in, shall we say, concrete
terms.
An example in science springs to mind in thermodynamics, originally
formulated by Laplace, I think, called caloric. This is the supposed
heat fluid which travels into and out of something to make it hot or
cold. Joule's experiments put the lid on that one.* As it happens,
in spite of the fact that it isn't a <real> physical phenomenon,
caloric is still a very useful idea and probably the way most of us think
of how heating occurs.
Problems arise when we take things too literally.
Regards, JCD.
* and Ben Franklin, I think.
In article <3fd01095...@news.west.earthlink.net>, Jake
--
John C Dye
MK Shotokan Karate Club:
http://www.mktask.freeserve.co.uk/
John...@mktask.freeserve.co.uk
John C Dye
about releasing the flow of ki through the joint leads to ideas of
manipulation and flexing. This can be a very effective form of treatment.
A similar case is keeping a stance for an extended period of time. This
is recommended in Taiji and was referred to in a recent SKM. Such an
exercise is typically regarded as a macho endurance test but need not be so.
Invoking the ki concept allows us to adjust our stance, however minutely,
to achieve a sense of harmony or balance. Any discomfort or awkwardness
is eased out by re-adjusting local areas of tension. I find this really
works and leads to improved balance and strength.
Regards, John Dye.
In article <ant07202...@mktask.freeserve.co.uk>, John C Dye
Paul C
<gale_...@libero.it> wrote:
> Hi every body
> I've just started praticing shotokan karate. I like it very much, my sensei
> says that I've good chances to be a good one in this style.
> I'd like to know about what is Ki energy often discussed in martial arts and
> how can I develop this energy praticing karate!
> Thank you
> Gab
Forget about a tension based martial art. You need to learn relaxation
and whole body movement, rather than the segmented stuff you get taught
at 99% of Karate classes. The energy will come through proper body
alignment and creating a 'ground path' so your opponent will feel the
'floor' rather than just the strength of your muscles. This is what
internal arts such as Bagua and Yiquan try to instill (most Tai Chi has
lost the plot regarding this). OK this takes longer to learn which is
why they are not so popular plus the fact they teach this stuff before
applications. People who can REALLY apply this stuff seem 'magical' so
maybe this is why they invented the concept of 'Ki' or 'Chi', for
something they did not understand.
If you want fitness and sport carry on in what you are doing but don't
expect to be taught this stuff by any Karate organisation. Some higher
Dan grades know this (or discover it) but it is too dangerous
politically for them to teach it as their paying customers expect to be
taught stuff they see on TV or the movies.
--
aaa
GaleNinja_1
way that your body becoms "channel" of floor strenght ?
nice teory...
to do this I need to relax....thats true, but why a lot of people say also
that Chi is activated with the proper breathing tecniques?
thanks!
Gab
"Paul C" <p...@nospam.btinternet.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:211220032057172344%p...@nospam.btinternet.com...
Jake
<gale_...@libero.it> wrote:
>so you say that chi is only the strenght taken from the floor in a correct
>way that your body becoms "channel" of floor strenght ?
>nice teory...
Nice theory, but it would be wrong. I was hoping he was talking about
slamming people against the floor, but *not* somehow channeling energy
up from the floor, that just isn't how it works.
Perhaps you are missing some of the other messages in this thread, so
I'll post this link again that tells us that ki does not exist as a
discrete form of energy:
http://www.skepdic.com/chi.html
Ordinary, conventional physiology is sufficient in explaining how
expert karate techniques is performed.
>to do this I need to relax....
Relaxation does help one's karate performance it is true.
>thats true, but why a lot of people say also
>that Chi is activated with the proper breathing tecniques?
I think it's a bit overstated, the emphasis on breathing while doing
karate. If you are meditating, mentally focusing on ones breath is
widely touted and likely benificial.
-Jake
.JiN.
In the end I have no prove that Chi exist. I can believe in it because some
people say that Chi is the vital force of everything existing on the earth
and in the universe.
.JiN.