ITF= Plagiarism & Communism?
John A. Wielmaker
I've several hard questions about International Taekwon-do Federation Taekwon-do (ITF-TDK) and Choi Hong-hi that I would like to submit to you for your collective review and deliberation. Those of you familiar with the issues raised below will no doubt have formed opinions on these matters. I would like to hear them. For those who are first introduced to the concerns raised below, please bear in mind I make no arrogant pretense to presenting the final truth on these matters. There is plenty I still do not understand as yet. This is definitely a work in progress, more than capable of falsification. Truth above all is my concern.
I do this because I will be testing for first dan in the USTF/ITF, and am very concerned about 奏aking a dan' in a questionable style. Bottom line: there seems to be deliberate lies and distortions cutting right into the heart of the ITF---and the WTF, for that matter. Since I am more familiar with the ITF, the focus will be on the ITF and on its founder, Choi Hong-hi. It is admittedly hard to get accurate biographical data on Choi's life, because most of the 礎iographical' material on him actually amounts to mere hagiography.
Two basic questions define my concerns about Choi Hong-hi and the ITF:
1) What is the exact nature of the historical linkage between
Shotokan karate and ITF TKD (plagiarism)?
2) What is the nature of the relationship between Choi Hong-hi
and communist North Korea (Useful Idiot)?
An obvious hint lies in the Fundamental Movements constituting the core of the ITF's patterns. The ITF's patterns look astonishingly like Shotokan patterns. This is not very surprising when we recall that Choi Hong-hi received a second dan in Shotokan karate while living in Japan. Choi claims to have studied Taekkyon in secret with his calligraphy teacher while still a sickly young lad. No evidence is presented to support his claim, and we are left only with our faith in Choi's word, a word that will increasingly look compromised as we continue. Indeed, how could a calligraphy teacher know Taekkyon---which (as far as I know) was something of a ruffian's sport that had vanished by the time of Choi's instruction in calligraphy? And does not Choi allude to a wrestler who threatened his life just before he left Korea for Japan? Why should a student trained in the ancient art of Korean foot fighting be so concerned for his safety? No, unless it can be decisively proven otherwise, Choi got his martial arts training in Japan, not at the hands of a calligraphy teacher.
Yet the pattern meanings as reformulated by Choi are virulently anti-Japanese. For example, a whole pattern is devoted to a man who killed a Japanese person ("Joong-Gun"). This is odd, considering that Choi clearly copied much of the Japanese style's basic movements and fighting doctrines. Indeed, much unites ITF-TKD and Shotokan karate: both styles emphasize 蘇ard' patterns, a 双ne kick, one punch' self defense philosophy and relatively rigid rules of etiquette. WTF sub-styles, by contrast, tend repeat TEND to underplay patterns and Hosin-sul movements, while being relatively more informal/less rigid in class.
What distinguishes traditional or ITF-TKD from Shotokan karate are its emphases on high kicks and sport-sparring, neither of which are especially prominent in Shotokan karate. Yet these distinguishing characteristics emerged only in the 1960s. They evolved out of the twin effects of exposure to the American tournament circuit and the happenstance presence and influence of talented Korean kickers, like Jhoon Rhee and Chong Lee. Nonetheless, the core movements of ITF-TKD to this day resemble their counterpart movements in Shotokan karate, and the issue of Nihonphobia remains. I offer three reasons why Choi's ITF patterns are so heavily stilted against the Japanese.
FIRST, the anti-Japanese Nihonphobia seeping from the ITF's patterns may have some basis in fact. The Japanese conquered Korea in 1908 and administered the peninsula until their defeat at American hands in 1945. The Japanese were often brutal and ethnocentric, as indeed they were to all the conquered peoples in their Co-Prosperity Sphere. Still, the Koreans proved to be remarkably good colonial subjects, and were the people of choice for lower and middle level jobs throughout Japan's Asian dominion. Many Koreans collaborated with the Japanese conquerors, in ways closely resembling the 漸uisling-ization' of the French before German might in WWII.
But the Japanese also did tremendous good for Korea during the colonial years. In 1908 Korea was primitive, feudal and repressive; the Japanese came and inaugurated Korea's modernization and industrial revolution. In the 30-plus years of Japanese rule, the Japanese built Korea's roads, factories, hospitals, universities, industries and governmental infrastructure. Choi Hong-hi knows this....he lived well in Japan for at least six years, as a child of a privileged family. At least up until the point he was "forced to enlist in the Japanese army through no volition" of his own (to question the veracity of this assertion is beyond the scope of this argument, but the issue warrants further research). In any event, resentment against the Japanese is not a particularly just basis for pattern meanings; it seems rather petty.
SECOND, politics has much to do with the story. The South Korean government sought in the 1950s to create a 爽niquely' Korean martial art for export to strengthen South Korea's national identity and enhance its image abroad. To create a 創ational' martial art, like China's Wu Xu or Japan's Shotokan karate, the South Korean government sponsored those Korean martial artists most willing to 喪ediscover' 2,000 year old techniques. Choi apparently was connected politically through his family and military networks, and was one of those early Kwan-heads willing to be creative with history. But I admit I have only come across generalities and rather oblique references to this period of the martial art's history. Some 双fficial histories' entirely ignore the factious jockeying for political recognition among the various Kwan-heads during this period. Any information readers may have from this period is heartily appreciated.
THIRD, (it can not be stated more politely) the voracity of Choi's ego is undeniable, and may have contributed to his plagiarism and demonization of the Japanese. A variety of indicators show Choi is a man of great ego. In the 1950s Choi founded his Oh Do Kwan, which quite immodestly means the "Gym of My Way". In practically all ITF official publications we see either 奏he General's' picture or his words. He insists on being called 奏he General' despite the fact he lost his honorary retired rank when he committed treason against South Korean by repeatedly visiting its mortal enemy, North Korea. In his Encyclopedia he notes how his is the only pure style of Taekwon-do--a common theme among cultist leaders is that they have the 双ne true path' and jealously guard against those who may dissent. [Perhaps that is why Choi purged the ITF in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Until more evidence is gathered to buttress this point, the point remains pure conjecture.] Choi's absurdly rapid ascent through the ranks to general officer rank in a mere six years shows overweening ambition and the connections to make that ambition reality. Although Choi's brief hagiographies are uniformly fuzzy on the details of his life, they all portray Choi as some sort semi-mythical, larger than life figure. What sort of humble martial artist is this?
As for Japan-bashing, Choi knew that hatred of Japan existed throughout all Asia in the decades after World War II. What better appeal for his 創ew' martial art than Japan bashing? It was in Asia first that Choi spread his variant of Koreanized Shotokan karate, especially throught the Korean Taekwon-do Association (KTA).
Choi managed to secure the presidency of the Korean Taekwon-do Association in 1961; but things apparently went badly for the man, for in 1966 he was forced to resign from the KTA's presidency over a putative 組oodwill' trip to North Korea by one of Choi's demo teams. But I suspect there must have been more to Choi's forced departure than that, because did not simply resign---he created a new TKD federation in 1966.
This new federation, the ITF we all know and love, was to be Choi's personal baby, completely under his firm autocratic control. Choi alludes to occasions when he had to remove disagreeable elements from his ITF. Were these purges or needed house-cleanings? Choi appointed his son to be the number two and figure in the ITF. In Asian societies, turning an organization into a family dynasty is considered normal. What is interesting here is that family is also the best means to secure loyalty---and compliance. To this day, the ubiquitous, exuberant praise for 奏he General' has all the trappings of a constructed 祖ult of personality'. There is even an obnoxious ITF website which proudly touts some new bronze bust of Choi, looking pompous and ludicrously self-important (maybe it's the Roman Emperor look that grates).
So here we have it: Choi's plagiarism of Shotokan karate deriving from
1) the man's ego, 2) the politics of his time and 3)
revenge for the very real brutalities his people suffered.....In fact,
this looks like plagiarism with a mean-spirited twist: how can one copy
the essence of something, and then turn around and trash the name of the
(largely uncredited) source? Choi hedges here: he admits the
presence of Japanese forms, but nonetheless strongly asserts his ITF-TKD
is something distinct from Shotokan karate and is instead rooted in ancient
Korean history. But ITF-TKD is neither rooted in ancient Korean history
nor is it distinct from Shotokan karate in its Fundamental Movements.
Since the ITF arguably is Choi's vehicle for self-aggrandizement (and lots of free travel too, it seems), he simply ordered the inclusion of the pattern Juche. I can find no evidence of internal dissent within the ITF or USTF (!) from 奏he General's' decision---which is perhaps a sign that the earlier purges 層orked'. I also suspect that Juche's inclusion into the ITF's pantheon of patterns passed with such little notice because many people were unaware of exactly what "Juche" really referred to. Perhaps this brief synopsis can help contextualize my concern.
"Juche" is the official name of the bizarre and very modern ideology of North Korea; it is a mixture of Stalinism, fascist racism and xenophobic nationalism. It lacks coherence in a conventional sense; but its purpose is to stultify the rational and critical mind and thus help subdue men. For connoisseurs of leftist propaganda, Juche is by far the best yet devised. Short snippets below will have to suffice in lieu of space constraints.
"Juche" is something you are supposed to marvel at; in fact, you can
visit the Juche Tower in P'yong Yang (the capital of North Korea, a Stalinist
Disneyland)---Choi Hong-hi did. It is a monument to the (now dead)
N. Korean tyrant Kim Il-sung; grand, baroque, empty, concrete, the tower
symbolizes the Great Leader's life and his life's philosophy, Juche.
Juche is described on the tower "as a brilliant extension, deepening and
completion of Marxism-Leninism". So what is this great Juche idea
that so enthralled 奏he General' Choi? Here is Choi's description
of the idea as described in the USTF Patterns Workout book:
"Juche is a philosophical idea that man is the master of everything
and decides everything. In
other words, it is the idea that man is the master of the world and his
destiny." (P. 132)
Here is another definition of Juche as described in a typical North
Korean propaganda pamphlet (this written by Kim Jong-il, the current ruler
of N. Korea):
"The Juche idea is based on the philosophical principle that
man is the master of everything and decides everything. That
man is the master of everything means that he is the master of the
world and of his own destiny....The Leader made it clear that man is a
social being with Chajusong, creativity and consciousness.....The
Leader gave a new philosophical conception of man by defining Chajusong,
creativity and consciousness, as the essential features of man, the
social being....Chajusong, creativity and consciousness are man's social
qualities which take shape and develop socially and develop historically.
Chajusong, creativity and consciousness are peculiar to man, the
social being. Man is a being with Chajusong, that is, an independent
social being."
Notice the similarities? Now consider this: North Korea
is a country where such passages must be read aloud, blared through loudspeakers
and committed to memory for public regurgitation. This has been going
on there for generations. All over North Korea are loudspeakers blaring
non-stop this thought-killing junkthink. North Korea has the best-developed
slave-labor/re-education camp system on earth. In fact, another passage
written by Kim Jong-il notes the function of this barrage of Juche nonsense,
which is all the more interesting if you substitute 're-education' with
'remodelling' (sic):
"The Leader put forward the idea of revolutionising, working-classising
and intellectualising all members of society and thus transforming
them into communist men of the Juche type, as a major revolutionary
task in modelling the whole of society on the Juche idea.....Thoughts
define men's worth and quality and, accordingly, ideological remodelling
is of the upmost importance in the transformation of man."
Why in heaven's name did Choi name a pattern after this ideology? Note, I really do not care if Choi feels spiritual kinship with militant, Stalinist collectivists. The problem emerges when you consider that over 38,000 Americans gave their lives to defend the freedom and territorial integrity of South Korea during the Korean War (1950-53). The North Korean assault in 1950 was conducted largely in the name of the Juche ideology and with the material aid of Stalin's USSR and Mao's PRC. Many other countries, ranging from Australia to Turkey, sent soldiers to fight with the Americans against the forcible spread of communism.
It is absurd, if not downright disrespectful, to mandate that Americans must perform a pattern explicitly designed to glamorize an oppressive ideology that Americans and others died fighting against. That Juche becomes required only for those who already desire to gain higher dan-ranking makes it an even more evil screening device. It subtly compromises its practitioners. Every time an American does Juche, what is he/she supposed to think? No good can come from the dissonance caused by having to shout the name of an abhorrent ideology. By the time one has invested five to seven years of time and training in the ITF, one must come up to this and make an impossible choice: quit the ITF or suspend rational thought and mouth the word.
What on earth was Choi thinking? Other than the obvious possibility
that Choi is a communist or communist sympathizer, we can also generously
hypothesize that Choi wants to prevent ideology from dividing the Korean
race. In fact, the last, highest ITF pattern ("Tong-il") is about
the supposed indivisibility of the Korean race. Be that as it may,
in the end there is no excusing the inclusion of Juche in the pantheon
of required ITF patterns.
Dave Murray
John A. Wielmaker wrote in message <364779CD...@mail.la.utexas.edu>...
>By the
>time one has invested five to seven years of time and training in
>the ITF, one must come up to this and make an impossible
>choice: quit the ITF or suspend rational thought and mouth the
>word.
If you're not Korean, why get involved in their politics, our own are bad
enough, who needs it. But then, I don't much like that 24 step Tai Chi,
buncha Chinese communists created it ya know.
Regards,
Dave Murray
Sabum
First of all, you have to study more attentively the history of Taekwon-do,
because Gen. Choi never claim that taekwon-do is a 2000 year martial art.
2000 year martial art is the claim of WTF. READ THE BOOK.
You seem to know very well your martial art history but the most difficult
is not to know all the dates, names, etc... The most difficult is to be able
to discern if what you read is real. You know, it's very easy to change
history.
Those who criticize the most are often those who knows the less. Ceux qui
critique les plus sont souvent ceux qui en font le moins.
Do you know why there is a " - " between "Taekwon" and "do". If not , it's
because you know nothing about taekwon-do and his founder. Try to know the
man (Grandmaster Gen. Choi) and his philosophy instead of believing all the
propaganda against him (Gen. Choi. ).
Do you know the meaning of "do" in martial arts, because people who believe
in "do" don't write what you wrote.
S.A.
Archie Bell
smga...@my-dejanews.com
pub...@mail.la.utexas.edu wrote:
Plagarism cannot exist in a communist society. In so far as all property is
communal, nobody can legitimately lay claim to any property, even if that
property is solely intellectual.
The assertion of plagarism requires a fundamental appreciation for the
individual's right to property.
A communist can never be a plagarist.
--
Steve
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> Gentlefolk,
>
> <P>I've several hard questions about International Taekwon-do
Federation
> Taekwon-do (ITF-TDK) and Choi Hong-hi that I would like to submit to you
> for your collective review and deliberation. Those of you familiar
> with the issues raised below will no doubt have formed opinions on these
> matters. I would like to hear them. For those who are first
> introduced to the concerns raised below, please bear in mind I make no
> arrogant pretense to presenting the final truth on these matters.
> There is plenty I still do not understand as yet. This is definitely
> a work in progress, more than capable of falsification. Truth above
> all is my concern.
>
> <P>I do this because I will be testing for first dan in the USTF/ITF, and
> am very concerned about 奏aking a dan' in a questionable style.
> Bottom line: there seems to be deliberate lies and distortions cutting
> right into the heart of the ITF---and the WTF, for that matter.
> Since I am more familiar with the ITF, the focus will be on the ITF and
> on its founder, Choi Hong-hi. It is admittedly hard to get accurate
> biographical data on Choi's life, because most of the 礎iographical' material
> on him actually amounts to mere hagiography.
>
> <P>Two basic questions define my concerns about Choi Hong-hi and the ITF:
> <BR> 1) What is the exact nature of the historical linkage between
> <BR> Shotokan karate and ITF TKD (plagiarism)?
> <BR> 2) What is the nature of the relationship between Choi Hong-hi
> <BR> and communist North Korea (Useful Idiot)?
> <BR>
> <CENTER>PLAGIARISM?</CENTER>
> I feel reasonably sure that, other than the high kicks and sport-sparring,
> what we call "traditional Taekwon-do" or "ITF-TKD" is not a 爽niquely Korean'
> martial art dating back 20+ centuries into Korean history, as Choi and
> others claim. As Dakin Burdick (1990) and others have clearly pointed
> out, TKD is entirely a product of modernity and has only nominal linkage
> to Subak or Taekkyon, the putative ancestors of TKD. Nonetheless,
> the ubiquitous myth of TKD's uniquely Korean pedigree continues to confuse
> history with hagiography. So where did Taekwon-do come from?
>
> <P>An obvious hint lies in the Fundamental Movements constituting the core
> of the ITF's patterns. The ITF's patterns look astonishingly
> like Shotokan patterns. This is not very surprising when we recall
> that Choi Hong-hi received a second dan in Shotokan karate while living
> in Japan. Choi claims to have studied Taekkyon in secret with his
> calligraphy teacher while still a sickly young lad. No evidence is
> presented to support his claim, and we are left only with our faith in
> Choi's word, a word that will increasingly look compromised as we
continue.
> Indeed, how could a calligraphy teacher know Taekkyon---which (as
> far as I know) was something of a ruffian's sport that had vanished by
> the time of Choi's instruction in calligraphy? And does not Choi
> allude to a wrestler who threatened his life just before he left Korea
> for Japan? Why should a student trained in the ancient art of Korean
> foot fighting be so concerned for his safety? No, unless it can be decisively
> proven otherwise, Choi got his martial arts training in Japan, not at the
> hands of a calligraphy teacher.
>
> <P>Yet the pattern meanings as reformulated by Choi are virulently anti-
Japanese.
> For example, a whole pattern is devoted to a man who killed a Japanese
> person ("Joong-Gun"). This is odd, considering that Choi clearly
> copied much of the Japanese style's basic movements and fighting
doctrines.
> Indeed, much unites ITF-TKD and Shotokan karate: both styles emphasize
> 蘇ard' patterns, a 双ne kick, one punch' self defense philosophy and
relatively
> rigid rules of etiquette. WTF sub-styles, by contrast, tend repeat
> TEND to underplay patterns and Hosin-sul movements, while being relatively
> more informal/less rigid in class.
>
> <P>What distinguishes traditional or ITF-TKD from Shotokan karate are its
> emphases on high kicks and sport-sparring, neither of which are especially
> prominent in Shotokan karate. Yet these distinguishing characteristics
> emerged only in the 1960s. They evolved out of the twin effects
> of exposure to the American tournament circuit and the happenstance presence
> and influence of talented Korean kickers, like Jhoon Rhee and Chong Lee.
> Nonetheless, the core movements of ITF-TKD to this day resemble their
> counterpart movements in Shotokan karate, and the issue of Nihonphobia
> remains. I offer three reasons why Choi's ITF patterns are so heavily stilted
> against the Japanese.
>
> <P>FIRST, the anti-Japanese Nihonphobia seeping from the ITF's patterns
> may have some basis in fact. The Japanese conquered Korea in 1908
> and administered the peninsula until their defeat at American hands in
> 1945. The Japanese were often brutal and ethnocentric, as indeed
> they were to all the conquered peoples in their Co-Prosperity Sphere.
> Still, the Koreans proved to be remarkably good colonial subjects, and
> were the people of choice for lower and middle level jobs throughout
> Japan's Asian dominion. Many Koreans collaborated with the
> Japanese conquerors, in ways closely resembling the 漸uisling-ization'
> of the French before German might in WWII.
>
> <P>But the Japanese also did tremendous good for Korea during the colonial
> years. In 1908 Korea was primitive, feudal and repressive;
> the Japanese came and inaugurated Korea's modernization and industrial
> revolution. In the 30-plus years of Japanese rule, the Japanese built
> Korea's roads, factories, hospitals, universities, industries and governmental
> infrastructure. Choi Hong-hi knows this....he lived well in Japan
> for at least six years, as a child of a privileged family. At least
> up until the point he was "forced to enlist in the Japanese army through
> no volition" of his own (to question the veracity of this assertion is
> beyond the scope of this argument, but the issue warrants further
research).
> In any event, resentment against the Japanese is not a particularly just
> basis for pattern meanings; it seems rather petty.
>
> <P>SECOND, politics has much to do with the story. The South Korean
> government sought in the 1950s to create a 爽niquely' Korean martial art
> for export to strengthen South Korea's national identity and enhance its
> image abroad. To create a 創ational' martial art, like China's Wu
> Xu or Japan's Shotokan karate, the South Korean government sponsored those
> Korean martial artists most willing to 喪ediscover' 2,000 year old
techniques.
> Choi apparently was connected politically through his family and military
> networks, and was one of those early Kwan-heads willing to be creative
> with history. But I admit I have only come across generalities and
> rather oblique references to this period of the martial art's
history.
> Some 双fficial histories' entirely ignore the factious jockeying for political
> recognition among the various Kwan-heads during this period. Any
> information readers may have from this period is heartily appreciated.
>
> <P>THIRD, (it can not be stated more politely) the voracity of Choi's ego
> is undeniable, and may have contributed to his plagiarism and demonization
> of the Japanese. A variety of indicators show Choi is a man of great
> ego. In the 1950s Choi founded his Oh Do Kwan, which quite immodestly
> means the "Gym of My Way". In practically all ITF official publications
> we see either 奏he General's' picture or his words. He insists
> on being called 奏he General' despite the fact he lost his honorary retired
> rank when he committed treason against South Korean by repeatedly visiting
> its mortal enemy, North Korea. In his Encyclopedia he notes how his
> is the only pure style of Taekwon-do--a common theme among cultist leaders
> is that they have the 双ne true path' and jealously guard against those
> who may dissent. [Perhaps that is why Choi purged the ITF in the late 1970s
> and early 1980s. Until more evidence is gathered to buttress
> this point, the point remains pure conjecture.] Choi's absurdly rapid ascent
> through the ranks to general officer rank in a mere six years shows
overweening
> ambition and the connections to make that ambition reality. Although
> Choi's brief hagiographies are uniformly fuzzy on the details of his life,
> they all portray Choi as some sort semi-mythical, larger than life
figure.
> What sort of humble martial artist is this?
>
> <P>As for Japan-bashing, Choi knew that hatred of Japan existed throughout
> all Asia in the decades after World War II. What better appeal
> for his 創ew' martial art than Japan bashing? It was in Asia first
> that Choi spread his variant of Koreanized Shotokan karate, especially
> throught the Korean Taekwon-do Association (KTA).
>
> <P>Choi managed to secure the presidency of the Korean Taekwon-do Association
> in 1961; but things apparently went badly for the man, for in 1966 he was
> forced to resign from the KTA's presidency over a putative 組oodwill' trip
> to North Korea by one of Choi's demo teams. But I suspect there
> must have been more to Choi's forced departure than that, because did not
> simply resign---he created a new TKD federation in 1966.
>
> <P>This new federation, the ITF we all know and love, was to be Choi's
> personal baby, completely under his firm autocratic control. Choi
> alludes to occasions when he had to remove disagreeable elements from his
> ITF. Were these purges or needed house-cleanings? Choi appointed
> his son to be the number two and figure in the ITF. In Asian societies,
> turning an organization into a family dynasty is considered normal.
> What is interesting here is that family is also the best means to secure
> loyalty---and compliance. To this day, the ubiquitous, exuberant
> praise for 奏he General' has all the trappings of a constructed 祖ult of
> personality'. There is even an obnoxious ITF website which
> proudly touts some new bronze bust of Choi, looking pompous and ludicrously
> self-important (maybe it's the Roman Emperor look that grates).
>
> <P>So here we have it: Choi's plagiarism of Shotokan karate deriving from
> 1) the man's ego, 2) the politics of his time and 3)
> revenge for the very real brutalities his people suffered.....In fact,
> this looks like plagiarism with a mean-spirited twist: how can one copy
> the essence of something, and then turn around and trash the name of the
> (largely uncredited) source? Choi hedges here: he admits the
> presence of Japanese forms, but nonetheless strongly asserts his ITF-TKD
> is something distinct from Shotokan karate and is instead rooted in ancient
> Korean history. But ITF-TKD is neither rooted in ancient Korean history
> nor is it distinct from Shotokan karate in its Fundamental Movements.
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <CENTER>CHOI A 繕SEFUL IDIOT'?</CENTER>
> Plagiarism is one thing, but there is an even more serious concern about
> Choi's character: Choi repeatedly visited North Korea---the world's most
> repressive regime by a vast margin---and concocted a new pattern after
> such visits that was added to the required ITF repertoire of patterns
("Juche").
> In the late 1970s and early 1980s Choi took on an increasingly strident
> anti-South Korean political posture. Now, Lenin referred to those
> Fellow Travelers who lived free and well in capitalist countries, but
sympathized
> 素rom a distance' with the goals of communism, as 繕seful Idiots'.
> Was Choi Kim Il-sung's Useful Idiot? And what do Choi's communist
> sympathies mean for those peoples who have fought and gave their sons'
> lives in the fight against communism?
>
> <P>Since the ITF arguably is Choi's vehicle for self-aggrandizement (and
> lots of free travel too, it seems), he simply ordered the inclusion of
> the pattern Juche. I can find no evidence of internal dissent within
> the ITF or USTF (!) from 奏he General's' decision---which is perhaps a
> sign that the earlier purges 層orked'. I also suspect that Juche's
> inclusion into the ITF's pantheon of patterns passed with such little notice
> because many people were unaware of exactly what "Juche" really referred
> to. Perhaps this brief synopsis can help contextualize my concern.
>
> <P>"Juche" is the official name of the bizarre and very modern ideology
> of North Korea; it is a mixture of Stalinism, fascist racism and xenophobic
> nationalism. It lacks coherence in a conventional sense; but its
> purpose is to stultify the rational and critical mind and thus help subdue
> men. For connoisseurs of leftist propaganda, Juche is by far the
> best yet devised. Short snippets below will have to suffice in lieu
> of space constraints.
>
> <P>"Juche" is something you are supposed to marvel at; in fact, you can
> visit the Juche Tower in P'yong Yang (the capital of North Korea, a Stalinist
> Disneyland)---Choi Hong-hi did. It is a monument to the (now dead)
> N. Korean tyrant Kim Il-sung; grand, baroque, empty, concrete, the tower
> symbolizes the Great Leader's life and his life's philosophy,
Juche.
> Juche is described on the tower "as a brilliant extension, deepening and
> completion of Marxism-Leninism". So what is this great Juche idea
> that so enthralled 奏he General' Choi? Here is Choi's description
> of the idea as described in the USTF Patterns Workout book:
> <BR>"Juche is a philosophical idea that man is the master of everything
> and decides everything.
In
> other words, it is the idea that man is the master of the world and his
> destiny." (P. 132)
>
> <P>Here is another definition of Juche as described in a typical North
> Korean propaganda pamphlet (this written by Kim Jong-il, the current ruler
> of N. Korea):
> <BR> "The Juche idea is based on the philosophical principle that
> man is the master of everything and decides everything. That
> man is the master of everything means that he is the master of the
> world and of his own destiny....The Leader made it clear that man is a
> social being with Chajusong, creativity and consciousness.....The
> Leader gave a new philosophical conception of man by defining Chajusong,
> creativity and consciousness, as the essential features of man, the
> social being....Chajusong, creativity and consciousness are man's social
> qualities which take shape and develop socially and develop
historically.
> Chajusong, creativity and consciousness are peculiar to man, the
> social being. Man is a being with Chajusong, that is, an
independent
> social being."
>
> <P>Notice the similarities? Now consider this: North Korea
> is a country where such passages must be read aloud, blared through
loudspeakers
> and committed to memory for public regurgitation. This has been going
> on there for generations. All over North Korea are loudspeakers blaring
> non-stop this thought-killing junkthink. North Korea has the best-developed
> slave-labor/re-education camp system on earth. In fact, another passage
> written by Kim Jong-il notes the function of this barrage of Juche nonsense,
> which is all the more interesting if you substitute 're-education' with
> 'remodelling' (sic):
> <BR> "The Leader put forward the idea of revolutionising, working-
classising
> and intellectualising all members of society and thus transforming
> them into communist men of the Juche type, as a major revolutionary
> task in modelling the whole of society on the Juche idea.....Thoughts
> define men's worth and quality and, accordingly, ideological remodelling
> is of the upmost importance in the transformation of man."
>
> <P>Why in heaven's name did Choi name a pattern after this ideology?
> Note, I really do not care if Choi feels spiritual kinship with militant,
> Stalinist collectivists. The problem emerges when you consider that
> over 38,000 Americans gave their lives to defend the freedom and territorial
> integrity of South Korea during the Korean War (1950-53). The North
> Korean assault in 1950 was conducted largely in the name of the Juche ideology
> and with the material aid of Stalin's USSR and Mao's PRC. Many other
> countries, ranging from Australia to Turkey, sent soldiers to fight with
> the Americans against the forcible spread of communism.
>
> <P>It is absurd, if not downright disrespectful, to mandate that Americans
> must perform a pattern explicitly designed to glamorize an oppressive ideology
> that Americans and others died fighting against. That Juche becomes
> required only for those who already desire to gain higher dan-ranking makes
> it an even more evil screening device. It subtly compromises its
> practitioners. Every time an American does Juche, what is he/she
> supposed to think? No good can come from the dissonance caused by
> having to shout the name of an abhorrent ideology. By the time one
> has invested five to seven years of time and training in the ITF, one must
> come up to this and make an impossible choice: quit the ITF or suspend
> rational thought and mouth the word.
>
> <P>What on earth was Choi thinking? Other than the obvious possibility
> that Choi is a communist or communist sympathizer, we can also generously
> hypothesize that Choi wants to prevent ideology from dividing the Korean
> race. In fact, the last, highest ITF pattern ("Tong-il") is about
> the supposed indivisibility of the Korean race. Be that as it may,
> in the end there is no excusing the inclusion of Juche in the pantheon
> of required ITF patterns.
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR> </HTML>
>
> --------------8D3032B12C761E91EA4EBB63--
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Andrew
..Gentlefolk,
<snip>
**** WARNING **** CROSS-POSTED ORIGINAL *****
I am unable to answer your questions or ease your disillusion, but I
have sent you an AMAKS FAQ.
Andrew
Exalted Whosis of the Grammar and Syntax Police, with Full Authority
to Cite, Arrest, or Otherwise Harass those who Spindle, Fold or
Mutilate our Beloved Mother Tongue!
Rose Humphrey
On 09 Nov 98 22:53:53 John A. Weilmaker, Dave Murray and Sabum all
crossposted to every newsgroup they could find with "martial arts" in
the title.
This message has deliberately been crossposted to the same groups,
for
obvious reasons.
Dave Murray and Sabum have been FAQ'd. I don't download huge messages,
so Mr. Weilmaker I leave to your tender mercies.
--
Rose
Exalted Whosis of the Grammar and Syntax Police
Feeler of Collars to the UngrammaticalRose
History may be bunk, but karate is bunkai...
Roshan Mamarvar
>
> John,
> Those who criticize the most are often those who knows the less. Ceux qui
> critique les plus sont souvent ceux qui en font le moins.
>
All you could proove until now, is that you speak french.
> Do you know why there is a " - " between "Taekwon" and "do". If not , it's
> because you know nothing about taekwon-do and his founder.
Do you know more about this secret? Tell us, please.
Try to know the
> man (Grandmaster Gen. Choi) and his philosophy instead of believing all the
> propaganda against him (Gen. Choi. ).
They all have the same philosophy, no matter if they're called Gen Choi,
Melle Mel or Flash. By the way, I really like their music ...
>
> Do you know the meaning of "do" in martial arts, because people who believe
> in "do" don't write what you wrote.
YOU have not understand anything about "Do" ! You can't "believe in Do"!
Do is a philosophical concept, not a religion. On the other hand, not
understanding anything about Do is not that horrible, you might think.
You may still be a good Martial Artist. (I know, what'S comming next:
The "missing heart stuff... Yaddayaddayadda..")
Roshan
--
______________________________________________________________
.oO° Member of the Secret Order of the ^v^ °Oo.
Homepage: http://homepage.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/Roshan.Mamarvar/index.htm
Karate: http://homepage.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/Roshan.Mamarvar/karate.htm
Graf: http://homepage.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/Roshan.Mamarvar/graffiti.htm
-------v&s--------------------------------------------------gPa-------
Shane Nishibun
Nish
Sabum wrote:
> John,
>
> First of all, you have to study more attentively the history of Taekwon-do,
> because Gen. Choi never claim that taekwon-do is a 2000 year martial art.
> 2000 year martial art is the claim of WTF. READ THE BOOK.
>
> You seem to know very well your martial art history but the most difficult
> is not to know all the dates, names, etc... The most difficult is to be able
> to discern if what you read is real. You know, it's very easy to change
> history.
>
> Those who criticize the most are often those who knows the less. Ceux qui
> critique les plus sont souvent ceux qui en font le moins.
>
> Do you know why there is a " - " between "Taekwon" and "do". If not , it's
> because you know nothing about taekwon-do and his founder. Try to know the
> man (Grandmaster Gen. Choi) and his philosophy instead of believing all the
> propaganda against him (Gen. Choi. ).
>
> Do you know the meaning of "do" in martial arts, because people who believe
> in "do" don't write what you wrote.
>
> S.A.
Rose Humphrey
<yet another crosspost on this bloody troll>
Could be worse, mind you: some other unfortunate group was apparently
twice honoured with the same message.
In your case, "do" means "do" read this FAQ.
--
Rose
Exalted Whosis of the Grammar and Syntax Police
Emmerdeuse Professionnelle
Rose Humphrey
<another crossposted message *and* in html format in response to an
obvious troll>
FAQ'd
--
Rose
Exalted Whosis of the Grammar and Syntax Police
Filmagic01
>WARNING!
>
>On 09 Nov 98 22:53:53 John A. Weilmaker, Dave Murray and Sabum all
>crossposted to every newsgroup they could find with "martial arts" in
>the title.
>
>This message has deliberately been crossposted to the same groups,
>for
>obvious reasons.
>
Believe it or not, they didn't post to alt.martial-arts.tae-kwon-do. What a
bunch of idiots.
--
* Having control over myself is nearly as good as having control over others.
sl...@alphalink.com
>of the ITF's patterns. The ITF's patterns look astonishingly like
>Shotokan patterns. This is not very surprising when we recall that Choi
>Hong-hi received a second dan in Shotokan karate while living in Japan.
>Choi claims to have studied Taekkyon in secret with his calligraphy
>teacher while still a sickly young lad. No evidence is presented to
>support his claim, and we are left only with our faith in Choi's word, a
>word that will increasingly look compromised as we continue. Indeed,
>how could a calligraphy teacher know Taekkyon---which (as far as I know)
>was something of a ruffian's sport that had vanished by the time of
>Choi's instruction in calligraphy? And does not Choi allude to a
>wrestler who threatened his life just before he left Korea for Japan?
>Why should a student trained in the ancient art of Korean foot fighting
>be so concerned for his safety? No, unless it can be decisively proven
>otherwise, Choi got his martial arts training in Japan, not at the hands
>of a calligraphy teacher.
calligraphy teather is also trained in matrtial arts. In ancient
China, there was a poet regarded as the best romantic poet ever. His
poet is well know even in modern day. But littlle was known, that he
was also a good swords man, although not the best.
>But the Japanese also did tremendous good for Korea during the colonial
>years. In 1908 Korea was primitive, feudal and repressive; the
>Japanese came and inaugurated Korea's modernization and industrial
>revolution. In the 30-plus years of Japanese rule, the Japanese built
>Korea's roads, factories, hospitals, universities, industries and
>governmental infrastructure. Choi Hong-hi knows this....he lived well
>in Japan for at least six years, as a child of a privileged family. At
>least up until the point he was "forced to enlist in the Japanese army
>through no volition" of his own (to question the veracity of this
>assertion is beyond the scope of this argument, but the issue warrants
>further research). In any event, resentment against the Japanese is not
>a particularly just basis for pattern meanings; it seems rather petty.
Wow, now this is such a radical idea. In 1940's when the Japanese
army invaded China, there is this big city called Nanjing, they killed
everyone in there, that's one million people, and they burnt the city
to ground, which also happened to be a acient capital for many
empires. And women were raped, very young to very old, and killed
afterwards. Perhaps a greater hollocaust would bring China the
democracy ? Sure they bilt some roads, industries etc. they built
them 'cause they needed them, they didn't build them for the benefit
of Chinese or the Korean! And guess who they used to build the
'infrastructures', the local slave labors. And they build some roads
and railways too, in Australisia, this time they used slave POWs!
>SECOND, politics has much to do with the story. The South Korean
>government sought in the 1950s to create a 爽niquely' Korean martial art
>for export to strengthen South Korea's national identity and enhance its
>image abroad. To create a 創ational' martial art, like China's Wu Xu or
I'm not going to elabrate on this one, WuXu merely means martial arts,
it's not national martial arts, there are many many diferent branches,
forms..... they're all WuXu, it's only a general term.
John A. Wielmaker
> If you're not Korean, why get involved in their politics, our own are bad
> enough, who needs it. But then, I don't much like that 24 step Tai Chi,
> buncha Chinese communists created it ya know.
Yes, I agree, but must one yell "Mao Stomps All Running Dogs of Capitalism!!"
after going through the Tai Chi movements? And I thought Tai Chi was 2,000
years old, founded right about the same time TKD was created. Oh well. ;~)
>
>
John A. Wielmaker
Hit hard, hit soft, I don't care, but please, please have a point. Below...
Sabum wrote:
> John,
>
> First of all, you have to study more attentively the history of Taekwon-do,
> because Gen. Choi never claim that taekwon-do is a 2000 year martial art.
> 2000 year martial art is the claim of WTF. READ THE BOOK.
I read the book. Choi roots TKD in two sources, which are: his training in
Taekkyon & Shotokan karate. The Taekkyon reference is a deliberate attempt to
Koreanize Shotokan karate, because Taekkyon has roots in medieval korea. Choi
thus hedges the issue by deliberately fuzzing up the real history of
Taekwon-do. But Choi leaves the actual myth-making to others; any number of
websites, ITF & WTF, have little 'histories' that always start 2,000 years ago
in korean history.
>
>
> You seem to know very well your martial art history but the most difficult
> is not to know all the dates, names, etc... The most difficult is to be able
> to discern if what you read is real. You know, it's very easy to change
> history.
Exactly; hence my desire to critically evaluate the claims and pretentions made
by too many TKD 'Grandmasters' and whatnot.. This is done by disproving
claims---falsifying them. If they can't be proven false, then they are more
likely than not to be true. The point is to be as aware as possible about what
sort of organization one affiliates with. To be aware is to be skeptical. If
you care about that sort of thing. Many folks do not, and that's is fine.
>
>
> Those who criticize the most are often those who knows the less. Ceux qui
> critique les plus sont souvent ceux qui en font le moins.
The implication that my criticisms--questions, really-- bespeak ignorance is
utterly true. I do not pretend to be all-knowing. Far from it! But some
falsities are so blatant & in-your-face that even the sheerest review reveals
their contradictions. And we should anyway always question assumptions. Keeps
us honest and makes for a principled life. In the end, what else is there?
>
>
> Do you know why there is a " - " between "Taekwon" and "do". If not , it's
> because you know nothing about taekwon-do and his founder. Try to know the
> man (Grandmaster Gen. Choi) and his philosophy instead of believing all the
> propaganda against him (Gen. Choi. ).
No civil reply is possible to this.
>
>
> Do you know the meaning of "do" in martial arts, because people who believe
> in "do" don't write what you wrote.
Ditto.
>
>
>
John A. Wielmaker
Rose Humphrey wrote:
> WARNING!
>
> On 09 Nov 98 22:53:53 John A. Weilmaker, Dave Murray and Sabum all
> crossposted to every newsgroup they could find with "martial arts" in
> the title.
> Dave Murray and Sabum have been FAQ'd. I don't download huge messages,
> so Mr. Weilmaker I leave to your tender mercies.
Well, thank you! May I ask who exactly are you, to regale us with such
nice flame?
> Rose
> Exalted Whosis of the Grammar and Syntax Police
> Feeler of Collars to the UngrammaticalRose
> History may be bunk, but karate is bunkai...
Oh......oh. Question answered.
ven...@webtv.net
This is not a flame.Neither was Rose's.Flame you have not seen yet,
here-I kid you not You don't know where you tread.As this is an
unmoderated newsgroup, anyone can post, and many do.
However:AMAKS, as the FAQ will tell you, is a soewhat unique NG,and it's
participants have developed an arsenal of defensive, counteroffensive
and downright offensive weaponry designed to impart severe psychic
trauma to those who venture in here with, say, off-topic posting.
The G.A.S.P., or Grammar and Syntax Police,an Exalted Whosis of which
you have just treated in a patronising manner which will quickly see you
to what we fondly refer to around here as The Gates Of Hell,are only the
first skirmish line of AMAKS defensive, probing and engagement devices
we have .
Here on AMAKS,not only the G.A.S.P., the full power of which you have
not felt, exists.Others equally and more dreadful, such as Ozimoto, the
Great and Powerful AMAKS 18th Dan(7'9" Tall, 875 pounds, with an 89"
Chest and Bicep),for instance,may well be encountered.
Behave yourself.Attempted put-downs of regular members of this newsgroup
will bring an experience of a preview of Armageddon.Since I actually
enjoyed your initial post, and learned some things from it(I've met
General Choi-he had the best side kick I ever saw.),you may consider
this a friendly caution. Please TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.
REGARDS, VENGEL.
Filmagic01
>I welcome feedback and sincere efforts to buttress/falsify the points I made.
>Hit hard, hit soft, I don't care, but please, please have a point.
Well, let's see, you want to be hit, and you live in Texas.... what are you
doing Saturdays, around 11 AM?
Rose Humphrey
On 13 Nov 98 16:00:40 John A. Wielmaker opened his mouth and let his
belly rumble again:
>
> I welcome feedback and sincere efforts to buttress/falsify the
points I made.
> Hit hard, hit soft, I don't care, but please, please have a point.
Fine. We don't give a monkey's about your troll. We don't like
cross-posted messages. We don't want your vaguely TKD-related rubbish
cluttering up our nice clean shotokan karate newsgroup.
You have been told this already.
> Sabum wrote:
"Sabum" doesn't exist, or at least the email address bounces.
<snip huge chunk of extremely dodgy reasoning and assorted crap>
> No civil reply is possible to this.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
University of Texas, eh? Shall we complain to his ISP?
--
Peter C Jensen
<pub...@mail.la.utexas.edu> crossposted a year's savings of horse
manure.
Cross-posting shows you are a lousy netizen. A government study
recently proved that cross-posters are sons of alcoholic mothers with
an inheritable strong need to expose themselves in public. This must
ring a bell!
Next, your continued posting of stuff that is irrelevant to this news
group shows you are too thick to be handled gently. Expect to hear
from your ISP pretty soon. Maybe you should check up on those new
harassment rules on utexas.
On Fri, 13 Nov 1998 16:00:40 -0600, "John A. Wielmaker"
<pub...@mail.la.utexas.edu> crossposted a year's savings of horse
manure.
Cross-posting shows you are a lousy netizen. A government study
recently proved that cross-posters are sons of alcoholic mothers with
an inheritable strong need to expose themselves in public. This must
ring a bell!
Next, your continued posting of stuff that is irrelevant to this news
group shows you are too thick to be handled gently. Expect to hear
from your ISP pretty soon. Maybe you should check up on those new
harassment rules on utexas.
--
PC
aka "Kitaku"
http://inet.uni2.dk/home/pc
* *
Chuck Sears
> so what DOES -do mean?
It means "way". The word Tae means hand and Kwon means foot (or vice versa, I
never can remember which is which), so the term Taekwondo can be translated as:
The way of the hand and foot.
>
>
> Nish
>
> Sabum wrote:
>
> > John,
> >
> > First of all, you have to study more attentively the history of Taekwon-do,
> > because Gen. Choi never claim that taekwon-do is a 2000 year martial art.
> > 2000 year martial art is the claim of WTF. READ THE BOOK.
> >
> > You seem to know very well your martial art history but the most difficult
> > is not to know all the dates, names, etc... The most difficult is to be able
> > to discern if what you read is real. You know, it's very easy to change
> > history.
> >
> > Those who criticize the most are often those who knows the less. Ceux qui
> > critique les plus sont souvent ceux qui en font le moins.
> >
> > Do you know why there is a " - " between "Taekwon" and "do". If not , it's
> > because you know nothing about taekwon-do and his founder. Try to know the
> > man (Grandmaster Gen. Choi) and his philosophy instead of believing all the
> > propaganda against him (Gen. Choi. ).
> >
> > Do you know the meaning of "do" in martial arts, because people who believe
> > in "do" don't write what you wrote.
> >
> > S.A.
Bradley Webb
And Bobby Myles may be around for saturday classes, too.
More the merrier.
Brad.
Filmagic01 wrote:
>
> >From: "John A. Wielmaker"
> >
> >I welcome feedback and sincere efforts to buttress/falsify the points I made.
> >Hit hard, hit soft, I don't care, but please, please have a point.
>
> Well, let's see, you want to be hit, and you live in Texas.... what are you
> doing Saturdays, around 11 AM?
>
> --
>
> * Having control over myself is nearly as good as having control over others.
--
Brad Webb, 972-231-4922 Nortel Info Systems, 972-684-1737
Japan Shotokan Karate Dallas/Richardson TX.
JKA Dallas http://www.dallas.net/jka/
Filmagic01
>
>Hee hee hee,
>
>And Bobby Myles may be around for saturday classes, too.
>
>More the merrier.
>
Anyone have any luck with the Prolo series of injections that supposedly eat
away all the bad stuff? I can't work out, and am steadily drifting closer to
madness.
Rose Humphrey
>
> And I have Tennis elbow. Rats....
>
> Anyone have any luck with the Prolo series of injections that
supposedly eat
> away all the bad stuff? I can't work out, and am steadily drifting
closer to
> madness.
Hang on a minute here, George. You mean you only do karate with your
arms?
If it's any help, I've got a nasty problem of pinched nerves in both
arms and it hasn't stopped me training, although I have sometimes had to go off and work by myself in a corner rather than get involved in partner-work and risk excruciating blows to the forearms. Hey, you should see *my* bunkai for Jion!
I've actually made noticeable progress as a result, and not just in
stances and leg techniques. After all, if doing a technique is painful you must be doing it wrong.
MOrchids
>> critique les plus sont souvent ceux qui en font le moins.
>>
>
>
Not even. Just that he has access to (a) a phrasebook or (b) a book of
quotations. As Winston Churchill said, "A book of quotations is good for an
uneducated man." I could say that the trimuverate's posts have a je nais cais
quoi of bullshit, but would that establish that I know french?
Don't call it a comeback,
Bart
DevonErik
>As Winston Churchill said, "A book of quotations is good for an
>uneducated man."
I sincerely hope that the monumental irony of this statement is deliberate.
Devon Erik Oslund
Grand Poobah of the AMAKS Grammar and Syntax Police
(Self-appointed grammar watchdog group.)
Proud member of ^v^
(Organization of people who refuse to try to control others' lives.)
MOrchids
>>uneducated man."
>
>I sincerely hope that the monumental irony of this statement is deliberate.
>
>
Uh-huh. And believed, foolishly, as in the past, that it went without saying.
By the way, English as she is spake. Why does it have to be monumental? Do you
mean Washington monument/phallic symbol or Effiel Tower? Do you know when the
Effiel Tower was erected, by the way, or why, or as part of what event, since
we are on the topic of education? No, that's too snipey. But then, so was the
comment to which it replies. As James Thurber once wrote, "let it pass, let it
pass." or more trenchantly, "Shut up, he explained." (Actually, is it really
ironic at all? Go to the dictionary, laddy. Hypocrisy, maybe. An ironic tone,
diseptic mayhaps.)
B.
P.S. Devon: I just read the story of your tragic confrontation with the village
elders/idiots. Deep sympathy, old boy. Sincerely.
DevonErik
>>>As Winston Churchill said, "A book of quotations is good for an
>>>uneducated man."
>>
>>I sincerely hope that the monumental irony of this statement is deliberate.
>>
>>
>
>Uh-huh. And believed, foolishly, as in the past, that it went without saying.
If Rose wrote it, yes. For you, no.
>By the way, English as she is spake. Why does it have to be monumental? Do
>you
>mean Washington monument/phallic symbol or Effiel Tower?
mon*u*men*tal (adjective)
First appeared 1604
1 : of or relating to a monument
2 : serving as or resembling a monument : MASSIVE; also : highly significant :
OUTSTANDING
3 : very great
Defintions two and three work just fine.
>Do you know when the
>Effiel Tower was erected
Oh, my. And we were just speaking of phallic symbols, too.
>by the way, or why, or as part of what event, since
>we are on the topic of education?
Now, I could just look it up and tell you the exact World's Fair date, but I am
a card-carrying member of the Society for Promoting Skills Over Tools.
Never confuse intelligence with knowledge.
>No, that's too snipey.
But you said it anyway.
>As James Thurber once wrote, "let it pass, let it
>pass." or more trenchantly, "Shut up, he explained."
For someone who agrees with Winston Churchill about quotations, you certainly
make extensive use of them.
>(Actually, is it really
>ironic at all? Go to the dictionary, laddy.
You asked for it:
3 a (1) : incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the
normal or expected result
(2) : an event or result marked by such incongruity
You should know better than to try playing this game with me.
Filmagic01
> Do you know when the
>we are on the topic of education?
Yes, and the guy who built it was named Georges, so he's okay in my book. Your
point, or is it the one at the top of your head?
> As James Thurber once wrote, "let it pass, let
>it
>pass." or more trenchantly, "Shut up, he explained." (Actually, is it really
>ironic at all?
How does it feel to sit in the catbird seat?
Oy, you're giving me tsuris already. Stop with the trying to be clever.
PC Jensen
wrote:
>Now, I could just look it up and tell you the exact World's Fair date, but I am
>a card-carrying member of the Society for Promoting Skills Over Tools.
I am very glad to hear this. You may promote yourself to any honorary
position/title you'd like within the Society.
Rose Humphrey
Devon wrote:
> >Now, I could just look it up and tell you the exact World's Fair
date, but I am
> >a card-carrying member of the Society for Promoting Skills Over
Tools.
PC approved:
> I am very glad to hear this. You may promote yourself to any
honorary
> position/title you'd like within the Society.
Excellent. I think I can now safely reveal to the world at large that
the year was 1889 (some sort of centenary, apparently). And the name is Eiffel, Gustave Eiffel.
MOrchids
>am
>a card-carrying member of the Society for Promoting Skills Over Tools.
Information is neither. The access of information is a skill. If you had to
look up data without a computer you would be fucked. But I have the skills to
do it.
>
>Never confuse intelligence with knowledge.
This means? This is why I've never been impressed with your stuff. You always
stress knowledge over intellect.
>For someone who agrees with Winston Churchill about quotations, you certainly
>make extensive use of them.
I was using Winston to make a point about our friend's obvious use of a book of
quotations. If you knew anything about history, you would know that Winston,
like most people of his generation would likely have peppered his speech with
references from the Bible, Shakespeare, Dr. Johnson, Ben Johnson, and various
poets past and contemporary. But you value skills over tools, right? Intellect
over knowledge. Try looking up the things I quoted from Thurber in a book of
quotations.
Here's a news flash. Knowledge is what enables intellect. Without facts, the
brightest person "potentially" is crippled.
>3 a (1) : incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and
>the
>normal or expected result
>
> (2) : an event or result marked by such incongruity
If you think about this definition for more than your typical 15 milliseconds,
you will see that it does not fit the situation. In fact, your interpretation
is far more in line with the pop culture definition a la Alanis Morrisette than
a formal definition. Devon, your problem, and I sympathize, is that you are a
bright guy who has a fast trigger. You just don't think deeply enough about
things cause you never really have had too. The downside is that it makes you
obtuse and shallow.
> You should know better than to try playing this game with me.
Please. Devon,
I would really much rather talk about martial arts with you since that is a
topic that you seem to know a lot about. I don't think that you do yourself a
great deal of service by engaging in these petty sparring matches. Like most
sparring matches, they don't help anyone too much. My degree is in history, my
minor in english. Incidentally, I graduated with honors. You have failed to
demonstrate to me that your understanding of things in anyway superior to mine.
Running to the dictionary doesn't help. BTW, the exposition that the Eiffel
(thanks for the correction, Rose) was the centerpiece of, was the centenary of
the Revolution. -Bart
Andrew
> My degree is in history, my minor in english. Incidentally, I graduated with honors.
Irrelevant.
Andrew
Exalted Whosis of the Grammar and Syntax Police, with Full Authority
to Cite, Arrest, or Otherwise Harass those who Spindle, Fold or
Mutilate our Beloved Mother Tongue!
24FC
>This means? This is why I've never been impressed with your stuff.
Wow. Now that's entertainment! One of the local village idiots takes
on someone who has clearly established themselves as being able to
think, and says he's not impressed.
*sigh*
Give it up, Bart.
24FC
wrote:
>Whaaat? You've got some seriously outdated skills. Without a computer?
>Do you live in a cave?
Just ignore Morchids. He's a nut.
DevonErik
with the following display of ill-considered bravado:
>>Now, I could just look it up and tell you the exact World's Fair date, but I
>>am
>>a card-carrying member of the Society for Promoting Skills Over Tools.
>
>Information is neither. The access of information is a skill.
Only in the same way that eating breakfast is a skill. It requires neurological
resources, but anyone with a functional brain can do it.
>If you had to
>look up data without a computer you would be fucked. But I have the skills to
>do it.
You know where your local library is? You know how to use a card catalog? You
know how to use an encyclopedia? And you consider this *a mark of
intellegence*? How singularly pathetic.
>>Never confuse intelligence with knowledge.
>
>This means?
Which word didn't you understand?
>This is why I've never been impressed with your stuff. You always
>stress knowledge over intellect.
Wrong. Intelligence is not only the ability to analyze data, but the ability to
gather it.
>>For someone who agrees with Winston Churchill about quotations, you
>certainly
>>make extensive use of them.
>
>I was using Winston to make a point about our friend's obvious use of a book
>of
>quotations. If you knew anything about history, you would know that Winston,
>like most people of his generation would likely have peppered his speech with
>references blah blah blah blah
So what? He said that quotes were a prop for the feebleminded. You quoted him
as saying so, when it suited your purposes. Then, when it suited your purposes,
you peppered me with quotations. Looks pretty inconsistant to me.
Yes, I know. But Ralph Waldo Emerson is the hobgoblin of small minds.
>But you value skills over tools, right? Intellect
>over knowledge. Try looking up the things I quoted from Thurber in a book of
>quotations.
You call that a skill? Only in the sense that eating breakfast is skill. It's
too easy to merit discussion. You want a real example of an intellectual skill?
Say something quotable, instead of quoting others.
>Here's a news flash. Knowledge is what enables intellect.
More like a flashback. Intellect enables us to gather knowledge.
But what *kind* of knowledge is important? When the Effiel tower was built?
Great if you're playing "Trivial Pursuit", perhaps. You seem more impressed
with the skill of memorization than those of analysis and synthesis.
>>3 a (1) : incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and
>>the
>>normal or expected result
>>
>> (2) : an event or result marked by such incongruity
>
>If you think about this definition for more than your typical 15
>milliseconds,
>you will see that it does not fit the situation.
I assume you are refering to the phrase "senquence of events". I figured that
you would jump on this bit, and jump up and down waving your fist around as if
you had just scored a touchdown.
Well, I'll spell it out for you:
You typed something. This was a sequence of events, although I can scarcely
think of one less noteworthy.
So:
Event: You typed something.
Expected conclusion: You hoped to sound intelligent and learned.
Actual result: You sounded like a moron.
Irony.
>Devon, your problem, and I sympathize, is that you are a
>bright guy who has a fast trigger. You just don't think deeply enough about
>things cause you never really have had too. The downside is that it makes you
>obtuse and shallow.
If I had a particle of respect for you, I would care whether or not you felt
this way. But I haven't, and I don't, respectively.
>> You should know better than to try playing this game with me.
>
>Please. Devon,
>I would really much rather talk about martial arts
Then why is this the longest post you have written in quite some time?
>with you since that is a
>topic that you seem to know a lot about.
Why would I talk with *you* about martial arts since I have seen no evidence
whatsoever that you know anything at all about it?
>I don't think that you do yourself a
>great deal of service by engaging in these petty sparring matches.
I don't care what you think. You have never met me. You haven't a clue what's
good for me, and what isn't. You are not impressively bright to begin with.
>Like most
>sparring matches, they don't help anyone too much.
Wrong. Some sparring matches help some people a great deal.
Is this helping me a great deal? No, but it's fun.
>My degree is in history, my
>minor in english. Incidentally, I graduated with honors.
Why do you feel compelled to give me your resume?
Wait, don't answer that, I suspect I already know.
>You have failed to
>demonstrate to me that your understanding of things in anyway superior to
>mine.
Any way. Two words.
>Running to the dictionary doesn't help.
Perhaps the fact that I am making you look like a fool in public does?