Hyakuhachiho ^v^
lindylars
kata (i.e. sequence, history, applications, etc.)?
Forgive me if I missed an obvious reference/link somewhere, but
searches within Google mostly turn up old discussions on speculation
regarding whether it is or isn't a variation of Suparinpei(sp?) (or
some other iteration with bad Romanization). The AMAKS archive link
goes nowhere and with Shotokan Planet's forums being serviced by
/dev/null, I am running out of resources.
The most promising lead I found in Google search was a posting from
DevonErik in October '98 regarding a lead that he was looking into
describing, amongst other things IIRC, several mawashi-uke and a
nidan-geri and a somewhat implied "this is not the same as
Suparinpei." At some point DevonErik's author field name changes in
the Google database and I wasn't able to find any more references to a
relevant follow-up post.
I have lurked for about 5+ years off and on, never posted to my
recollection, and have done my best to avoid any of the
recent/standard peeves (from what I could tell) from the regulars. For
any feathers that may have been ruffled, please accept my apologies.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
Regards,
Ron
Roberto A. Alvelais
once. This kata appears to be a "Shotokanization" of
Suparinpei. The changes, to adopt the form to a shotokan
idea, didn't seem to make sense, nor did they seem
necessary.
Rob
On 5 Jul 2001 09:51:11 -0700, lind...@my-deja.com
(lindylars) wrote:
George Winter
The SRSI has an article by Scott Lippacher it includes the text &
videos of him performing the kata.
http://www.angelfire.com/my/srsi/5ed/hyakuintro.htm
It is in fact a shotokanized version of Suparenpi
--
George
_____________________________________________________________________
George Winter gwi...@q-sys.com
Qsys Ltd.
Information Systems Consulting
Devon Oslund
"lindylars" <lind...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8f52af28.01070...@posting.google.com...
> Hello. Has any concrete information ever been posted regarding this
> kata (i.e. sequence, history, applications, etc.)?
>
> Forgive me if I missed an obvious reference/link somewhere, but
> searches within Google mostly turn up old discussions on speculation
> regarding whether it is or isn't a variation of Suparinpei(sp?) (or
> some other iteration with bad Romanization). The AMAKS archive link
> goes nowhere and with Shotokan Planet's forums being serviced by
> /dev/null, I am running out of resources.
>
> The most promising lead I found in Google search was a posting from
> DevonErik in October '98 regarding a lead that he was looking into
> describing, amongst other things IIRC, several mawashi-uke and a
> nidan-geri and a somewhat implied "this is not the same as
> Suparinpei." At some point DevonErik's author field name changes in
> the Google database and I wasn't able to find any more references to a
> relevant follow-up post.
Said promising lead ran dry.
It was really was a Goju form, and somebody blowing hot air.
> I have lurked for about 5+ years off and on, never posted to my
> recollection, and have done my best to avoid any of the
> recent/standard peeves (from what I could tell) from the regulars. For
> any feathers that may have been ruffled, please accept my apologies.
Now that sounds suspiciously like people have been overdoing the gates of
hell routine lately....
-Devon
fin_fa...@webtv.net
Hi Devon,cigar and chair are still here.
Rob came here a couple days ago and drank all the brandy and didn't
refill the ice.Got kind of surly, as he does when that happens.Also he
used up all the soda from the gasogene and sprayed some into the shag
tobacco.Happens.We tolerate old members and founders however. It's on
order.:-)^v^
Scott Lippacher has posted Hyakuhachiho but I don't have the link. Turns
out Hykau hachi ho Is the Shotokan version of the Goju kata Supariinpei.
The Goju /Shito version is better.After all, that is here Shotokan got
it, and shotoka trying to do a lot of mawashi uke and sanchin dachi
doesn't look natural.
After doing twenty six kata only one or two of which have either one,
why would it?
'Now that sounds supsiciously like people have been overdoing the gates
of heel routine lately.'
MMM, no, been pretty peaceful and quiet here lately, barring a few
exciting discussions.No GOH needed.
Genjumin
Henry Norris
decide not to read the article, the kata is simply Kanazawa Sensei's version
of Suparenpei.
Of note is Mr. Kanazawa's recent work producing shotokanized versions of
Chinto aka Gankaku-sho, Seienchin, Nipaipo aka Nijuhachiho. He seems to be
innovating and exanding his syllabus with ferocity.
Henry Norris
Raleigh, NC USA
George Winter <gwi...@q-sys.com> wrote in message
Shawn Jefferson
<hjno...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>Of note is Mr. Kanazawa's recent work producing shotokanized versions of
>Chinto aka Gankaku-sho, Seienchin, Nipaipo aka Nijuhachiho. He seems to be
>innovating and exanding his syllabus with ferocity.
Is he really? He needs to do some creative surgery on Shotokan to
really innovate.
My old instructor took quite a few kata from other styles and
'shotokanized' them, in fact he even took some kata and put weapons in
them. However, all that did was allow his students to learn a couple
of new dances, bereft of any coherent applications and the confidence
that the movements were relatively unchanged. Mind you, he never
misrepresented what he was doing to the kata and why.
Is that better than Shotokan's kata, or any other style (we know that
several kata have changed significantly.) IMO, no, the older the kata
the better. I'd even hang up some Shotokan versions of the kata for
older versions were it not for the 'standardization' that they allow.
--
Shawn Jefferson
sjeffers{_at_}home[_dot_]com
Roberto A. Alvelais
<sjef...@home.com> wrote:
>Is that better than Shotokan's kata, or any other style (we know that
>several kata have changed significantly.) IMO, no, the older the kata
>the better. I'd even hang up some Shotokan versions of the kata for
>older versions were it not for the 'standardization' that they allow.
>
>--
>Shawn Jefferson
>sjeffers{_at_}home[_dot_]com
What, you don't like hopping backwards?
Rob
R...@jko.com
Shawn Jefferson
<Hoku...@jko.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:50:03 -0700, Shawn Jefferson
><sjef...@home.com> wrote:
>
>>Is that better than Shotokan's kata, or any other style (we know that
>>several kata have changed significantly.) IMO, no, the older the kata
>>the better. I'd even hang up some Shotokan versions of the kata for
>>older versions were it not for the 'standardization' that they allow.
>What, you don't like hopping backwards?
Exactly the thing I was talking about. I basically 'know' two
versions of some kata: 'standard' Shotokan and a modified form in
which I leave some movements out to bring the kata closer to older
versions.
Chinte is one example, H3 is another.
Henry Norris
Shawn Jefferson <> wrote in message
Hi Shawn, how ya doin?
> On Wed, 11 Jul 2001 22:13:26 -0400, "Henry Norris" wrote:
>
> >Of note is Mr. Kanazawa's recent work producing shotokanized versions of
> >Chinto aka Gankaku-sho, Seienchin, Nipaipo aka Nijuhachiho. He seems to
be
> >innovating and exanding his syllabus with ferocity.
>
> Is he really? He needs to do some creative surgery on Shotokan to
> really innovate.
Yes he is, simply by adding back technology that was lost to shotokan when
the early shotokan people 'improved' karate. If you don't like what he has
done, feel free to go your own way.
> My old instructor took quite a few kata from other styles and
> 'shotokanized' them, in fact he even took some kata and put weapons in
> them.
'Shotokanized' = 1) seeing a kata on video and repeating what we remember
with shotokan kihon 2) changing a kata to fit our kihon conceptual model
without understanding the oyo and bunkai (and probably original kihon)
This is the problem we have from the start. We need to stop shotokanizing
things. Why don't we understand the original thing before we try to
'improve' it?
> However, all that did was allow his students to learn a couple
> of new dances, bereft of any coherent applications and the confidence
> that the movements were relatively unchanged. Mind you, he never
> misrepresented what he was doing to the kata and why.
Yes, this really sounds like the shotokan way to me, just judging from
history, probably the standard JKA practice.
> Is that better than Shotokan's kata, or any other style (we know that
> several kata have changed significantly.) IMO, no, the older the kata
> the better. I'd even hang up some Shotokan versions of the kata for
> older versions were it not for the 'standardization' that they allow.
IMHO, keep the core 15 and ensure that your Jion and Kanku Dai are following
the JKF standard for competition. Innovate elsewhere by learning another
style's kata as well as you can, but don't 'shotokanize' it at all. Learn
as much as you can. Keep an open mind and remember that everyone has an axe
to grind and a hidden agenda.
Henry Norris
Bob McMahon
<sjef...@home.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 11 Jul 2001 22:13:26 -0400, "Henry Norris"
><hjno...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>>Of note is Mr. Kanazawa's recent work producing shotokanized versions of
>>Chinto aka Gankaku-sho, Seienchin, Nipaipo aka Nijuhachiho. He seems to be
>>innovating and exanding his syllabus with ferocity.
>
>Is he really? He needs to do some creative surgery on Shotokan to
>really innovate.
What did you have in mind Shawn?
>
>
I'd even hang up some Shotokan versions of the kata for
>older versions were it not for the 'standardization' that they allow.
Why can't you?
>
Ozebob
Shawn Jefferson
wrote:
>>Is he really? He needs to do some creative surgery on Shotokan to
>>really innovate.
>
>What did you have in mind Shawn?
Trashing the kumite focus, or trashing the kata. Proceed out from
there, two seperate arts/sports/hobbies.
> I'd even hang up some Shotokan versions of the kata for
>>older versions were it not for the 'standardization' that they allow.
>
>Why can't you?
"for the 'standardization' that they allow"
--
Bob McMahon
<sjef...@home.com> wrote:
>Trashing the kumite focus, or trashing the kata. Proceed out from
>there, two seperate arts/sports/hobbies.
It is possible to look at modern kumite as one form of training your
long distance techniques. Both pre-emptive striking and countering
attacks and supportive tactics can be practised safely. It is only a
game of 'tag' for those that play it that way.
I think of the kata as a template and extrapolate the close-quarter
defensive sequences for partner practise. Kata are only a collection
of basic waza applied in self defense scenarios. Understand the waza
and the kata interpretation is made less confusing.
>
>> I'd even hang up some Shotokan versions of the kata for
>>>older versions were it not for the 'standardization' that they allow.
>>
>>Why can't you?
>
>"for the 'standardization' that they allow"
What standardization! Shotokan kata were taken from the 3
geographical areas and lumped together. All of the Okinawan styles
have kata from different systems as well. Why not consider yourself a
karateka first whose lineage is based in Shotokan and train thekata
that you understand, like and suit your needs?
>
Ozebob
Shawn Jefferson
wrote:
>What standardization! Shotokan kata were taken from the 3
>geographical areas and lumped together. All of the Okinawan styles
>have kata from different systems as well. Why not consider yourself a
>karateka first whose lineage is based in Shotokan and train thekata
>that you understand, like and suit your needs?
The standardization that allows me to learn my kata from a book (Best
Karate, or 25 Shotokan Kata), refine it with a teacher, and further
refine it with on-line resources such as Shotokan Planet.
It also allows me to walk into a shotokan class almost anywhere and do
a recognizably similiar kata along with the rest of the class.
Bob McMahon
<sjef...@home.com> wrote:
>The standardization that allows me to learn my kata from a book (Best
>Karate, or 25 Shotokan Kata), refine it with a teacher, and further
>refine it with on-line resources such as Shotokan Planet.
All very enlightening resources..
>
>It also allows me to walk into a shotokan class almost anywhere and do
>a recognizably similiar kata along with the rest of the class.
>
Ah, you want to fit in with the pack. The view is always going to be
the same when you look to the lead dog for guidance : )
Ozebob
Gabriel Brega
Henry Norris <hjno...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3O137.8413$h6.27...@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net...
<snip>
> IMHO, keep the core 15
What ??? Axing 11 kata ? Which ones, and why ?
Gabriel
Jake
<sjef...@home.com> wrote:
>It also allows me to walk into a shotokan class almost anywhere and do
>a recognizably similiar kata along with the rest of the class.
Hi Shawn. Do I guess right that you've had some frustrating
experiences along these lines? :-)
You should try my art for a bit, "American Kenpo". These psychos
can't even keep things straight in one school, let alone across state
lines. God knows why they've got to be changing stuff all the time.
Individually, it's usually minor differences but on the whole it
really gets me frustrated at times, mainly when it comes to teaching.
And you know who gets pissed off the most about this? Lower level kyu
grades, and understandably so. I have to teach them, and my stuff is
always a bit different from so and so instructor's stuff. And God help
us if we go down to one of the Delaware schools for a seminar. My
schools in Pennsylvania mainly do the "Tracey Style" while the
Delaware schools all do the "Parker Style".
Again it's minor stuff usually, But I have the experience to realize
that different approaches are inevitable and not a bad thing
necessarily. But these students have a certain expectation that you
are to tell them what to do, and when they get inconsistant intruction
of any kind they become alienated and a certain percentage end up
quitting. And I don't blame them.
The point I am making is that things are rough all over as far as
standardization. That's all.
Rant over.
Now in a sort of defence of the system I've been studying for a while:
I get amused sometimes when you guys wonder about "hidden" self
defence applications in kata that *might* work in the street. You've
got your "three Ks", kihon, kata, and kumite, and that's great. We've
got a "fourth K" called, um, "Self Defence Techniques". Why don't you
all just add something like this as a part of your curriculum? The
Fourth K. Has a nice ring to it.
-Jake
fin_fa...@webtv.net
Well, American Kenpo traces its roots to Okinawan kempo of Choki Motobu,
and in that and the other Okinawan styles, the fourth K, goshinjutsu
waza, has always been there.
'These psychos'
Hahahahahahahahahahah! Little too much I me mine going on evereywhere.
But as you do the Tracey System, they videotaped the whole system.Pretty
smart.
Five Swords.
Gorrilla Swipes Monkey's Dragon.
Love those tech names.
John
Roberto A. Alvelais
For us, that's bunkai and oyo.
Rob
On Thu, 12 Jul 2001 03:58:01 GMT,
newton...@ix.netcom.com (Jake) wrote:
>I get amused sometimes when you guys wonder about "hidden" self
>defence applications in kata that *might* work in the street. You've
>got your "three Ks", kihon, kata, and kumite, and that's great. We've
>got a "fourth K" called, um, "Self Defence Techniques". Why don't you
>all just add something like this as a part of your curriculum? The
>Fourth K. Has a nice ring to it.
>
>-Jake
Devon Oslund
<fin_fa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:14568-3B...@storefull-135.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> Devon says:'It was really a Goju form, and somebody blowing hot air.'
>
> Hi Devon,cigar and chair are still here.
>
> Rob came here a couple days ago and drank all the brandy and didn't
> refill the ice.Got kind of surly, as he does when that happens.Also he
> used up all the soda from the gasogene and sprayed some into the shag
> tobacco.Happens.We tolerate old members and founders however. It's on
> order.:-)^v^
Rob's mood swings should not be taken too seriously.
Drove me batty until I figured that one out.
> Scott Lippacher has posted Hyakuhachiho but I don't have the link. Turns
> out Hykau hachi ho Is the Shotokan version of the Goju kata Supariinpei.
>
> The Goju /Shito version is better.After all, that is here Shotokan got
> it, and shotoka trying to do a lot of mawashi uke and sanchin dachi
> doesn't look natural.
>
> After doing twenty six kata only one or two of which have either one,
> why would it?
>
> 'Now that sounds supsiciously like people have been overdoing the gates
> of heel routine lately.'
>
> MMM, no, been pretty peaceful and quiet here lately, barring a few
> exciting discussions.No GOH needed.
Good to hear.
The gates of hell may have been necessary (we've been over that topic
enough), but they always made me feel a little funny about the whole
thing...
-Devon
Bob McMahon
>>
>> out Hykau hachi ho Is the Shotokan version of the Goju kata Supariinpei.
>>
>> The Goju /Shito version is better.After all, that is here Shotokan got
>> it, and shotoka trying to do a lot of mawashi uke and sanchin dachi
>> doesn't look natural.
Devon and Henry,
The earlier version of what Miyagi called Suparenpei was known as
Pechurin. Some say there were 3 versions (Sells) and the difference
was in the endings. One apparently ends in a one-legged stance,
another in the crane wrists posture.
The kata retained in the To'on Ryu lineage is similar to but
distinctively different in execution to the later 'Goju' version
Gojuized by Miyagi. Hyakuhachiho as created by Kanazawa appears to me
to have been based on Mabuni's version of Suparenpei.
My group practises the To'on Ryu version as interpreted by Murakami
Katsumi who has a teaching license in both To'on and Shorin Ryu. The
stances are simply sanchin, zenkutsu and neko ashi dachi and a
variation of Fudo dachi.
Kase has stated in print that Sanchin was part of the pre-JKA kata
syllabus and Harada and other Shotokai teaches it. With a little
practise, us dummy shoto types can perform and apply Sanchin and
Pechurin competently.
I know you are interested, as once before when I posted about older
versions of Funakoshi's kata, you commented. I have just located a
1933 text which contains among other things, an early version of
Chinte, Bassai Sho, Gojushiho (looks like Sho) and Kanku Sho.
Chinte is the most interesting of all and I am having some text
translated before I can make an informed comment about the differences
as it is hard to determine whether some techniques are moving fwd,
back or what !?! I can say that it begins with the monks salute (as
it finishes) and there are no hops, just one step back. It appears
there are some extra moves but I'll wait till I'm sure of my facts.
Bob
fin_fa...@webtv.net
from there, two separate sports/hobbies.'
Actually, the shotokan kihon and kata are fine for teaching grade school
kids thru High school, good P.E. no kumite.
Then after HS, could teach them the shorin ryu system.Which is not too
suitable for young children actually as it could hurt their bone and
joint develpment and is dangerous anyway,don't want Kiddoes knowing KERN
and valid combat movement.
For those interested from HS up,the kihon, and kumite system could be
taught as a sport.Collegiate perhaps.
But as an adult, definitely, change the methods, change the training,
learn the original katas.
If you want the self defense.
fin_fa...@webtv.net
Not everyone, Some of us have well -ground axes and agendas out in the
open.:-)
Actually, there do exist martial arts instructors with neither.They just
want to do and teach their art, because they love it.And they can use it
in helping people.
I am glad to have had a few such teachers who helped me for no other
reason than love of their hobby and desire to share it in its purest
form, with other like minded folks.
Some such are still around.Personally I have done same as I felt the
need to do something to perpetuate my teachers' spirit of sharing.Pass
it along, pay it forward, however you want to put it.
Jake
<Hoku...@jko.com> wrote:
>
>For us, that's bunkai and oyo.
>
Right, but aren't you always refering to a kata move? Maybe I've
misunderstood this all this time?
-Jake
Jake
wrote:
>But as you do the Tracey System, they videotaped the whole system.Pretty
>smart.
Does not keep them from making changes! Management. Harumph!
>
>Five Swords.
>Gorrilla Swipes Monkey's Dragon.
>Love those tech names.
I just learned a Bando excercise last night called "Picking Bees off
of a Tray". It's a warm up actually.
-Jake
Roberto A. Alvelais
Yes it is, Jake. However, that covers one hell of a lot of
self-defense situations. Also, I have a little different
hit on kata than John. I don't view every movement as a
finishing technique. Some are, some aren't. All of them are
set ups to a maneuver where one folds, bends, staples and
spindles the opponent. (kakushite)
Rob
Shawn Jefferson
wrote:
>On Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:55:52 -0700, Shawn Jefferson
><sjef...@home.com> wrote:
>
>
>>It also allows me to walk into a shotokan class almost anywhere and do
>>a recognizably similiar kata along with the rest of the class.
>
>Hi Shawn. Do I guess right that you've had some frustrating
>experiences along these lines? :-)
Well, the fact that my kata used to be a personal interpretation of my
instructor, I guess the answer is yes. Fortunately I have reverted to
Best Karate now.
>You should try my art for a bit, "American Kenpo". These psychos
>can't even keep things straight in one school, let alone across state
>lines. God knows why they've got to be changing stuff all the time.
>Individually, it's usually minor differences but on the whole it
>really gets me frustrated at times, mainly when it comes to teaching.
We have an "American Kenpo" school in my city, fairly successful.
I've had friends who went there, can't say I'd recommend it from what
I've heard. All second hand information.
>I get amused sometimes when you guys wonder about "hidden" self
>defence applications in kata that *might* work in the street. You've
>got your "three Ks", kihon, kata, and kumite, and that's great. We've
>got a "fourth K" called, um, "Self Defence Techniques". Why don't you
>all just add something like this as a part of your curriculum? The
>Fourth K. Has a nice ring to it.
A lot of schools do exactly this. My old school did, the main
shotokan school in town does. The point of the kata talk is (IMO) one
of understanding the whole of the system that we've inherited as
shotokan karate.
Not necessarily to become walking death machines, again IMO.
Shawn Jefferson
<devo...@elevatedtemperaturepostalservice.com> wrote:
>Rob's mood swings should not be taken too seriously.
>
>Drove me batty until I figured that one out.
I'd further say that pretty much anyone on Usenet shouldn't be taken
too seriously. After all you are all figments of my imagination, or
AI programs running in the router.
Shawn Jefferson
Because Master Funakoshi didn't put them in his Book!
Duh.
Zolly Skocic
Shawn Jefferson wrote:
> I'd further say that pretty much anyone on Usenet shouldn't be taken
> too seriously. After all you are all figments of my imagination, or
> AI programs running in the router.
When you catch yourself thinking that way, it's time to switch computer
off, take break and go to the beach.
Zolly
Tazman
>
> I just learned a Bando excercise last night called "Picking Bees off
> of a Tray". It's a warm up actually.
>
> -Jake
I laughed for hours over Jackie Chan's "monkey drinks his master's wine"
Henry Norris
Gabriel Brega <gbr...@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:9ij2s8$ue9$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
No need to axe them, but rather, no need for the extra ones if you can live
without them, especially if you are adding from outside. The core are the
most important, but keep the extra ones that you like as 'options'. IMO.
HenryJ
Henry Norris
Shawn Jefferson <sjef...@home.com> wrote in message
> >What ??? Axing 11 kata ? Which ones, and why ?
> >
>
> Because Master Funakoshi didn't put them in his Book!
>
Which book? Which translation? Which edition? Which Master Funakoshi?
;-)
HenryJ
Bob McMahon
In 1922 Funakoshi published these kata names-
Pinan 1-5, Naihanchi 1-3, Passai Dai/Sho, Kusanku Dai/Sho, Gojushiho,
Seishan, Chinto, Chinte, Jiin, Jitte, Jion, Wanshu, Wandau, Rohai,
Jumu, Wando, Sochin, Niseishi, Sanseiru, Suparinpei, Wankan, Kokan,
and Ushu.
In 1925, this list is identical, with the addition of Sanchin at the
end of the list.
Which book indeed?
Bob
Jake
Maybe that bit about the router software, I would agree with you. But
as far as people posting, they can be anything, anybody. And there is
no telling what their motivations are for writng as they do.
Therefore we must at least take them with a grain of salt.
-Jake
Gabriel Brega
Ahh ! Now I understand. When you say core you are talking about
the Heian, plus the sente no kata, plus tekki shodan - shodan test
requirements.
Contradiction : who would keep the knowledge alive for the students
to choose their favorite advanced kata/s if say the first generation
teachers were not required to know all 26 or 27 ? Very soon you
would be left with just the 11 you have in mind. And perhaps that
is even happening.
Disagreement : imo practicing kata so diverse as sochin and kanku
sho or gankaku is an antidote to the tournament sparring driven
simplification. Keep those alternative substyles alive, if anything
add more from the two cousins, says me.
Gabriel
Gabriel Brega
Bob McMahon <bob...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:3b4d6da4...@news.ozemail.com.au...
Ah - My teacher told me that they used to practice suparinpei. So
there were few more, not 11 less.
Where's the idea of axing coming from anyway ? What would be
the advantage ? If anything, I would not mind to learn suparinpei
and seishan, and sanchin as well, without having to beg here and
there for instruction :-)
Gabriel
Gabriel Brega
>
>
> Ahh ! Now I understand. When you say core you are talking about
> the Heian, plus the sente no kata, plus tekki shodan - shodan test
> requirements.
Hey, Gabriel - read again - he said keep 15, axe 11.
So, what are he 15 'core' kata ?
Gabriel
fin_fa...@webtv.net
Well, a kata Application.Bunkai is to analyze or breakdown the kata
moves, and oyo is the technique or followup of the analysis.
There are henka( variations) of oyo, as well, and also akushite or
Hidden Hands not shown but implied in kaa, pluse you can take any move
from any kata and 'spi' it with tai sabaki(body turning to any
direction), ashi sabaki( footwrok to any angle) and Tai Kawashi(body and
foot turning tob blend inside the opponnent's guard as you execute the
maneuvers.
There are entry methods(kogeki) and withdrawal methods( koho I think
they casll them ), receiving or uke methods, and interception methods
off the startle response and netural positions.
There are seite or natural hand maneuvers delivered from ordinary
positions, one shot takeouts and dangerous waza.
All seen in kata or in kumite adjuncts to kata such as yakusoku kumite
and bunkai kata.
'maybe I misunderstood.'
No, but it is a more complete syllabus than many realize, plus most
Okinawan styles do teach some cut and dried self defense methods to
beginners to shodan.
But the heart of the art is kata.The applications of the kata do
constitute the self defense techniques.
Only some modern schools forgot or never learned this, however, in case
of Shorin, Goju, Shito etc. ryu, and To'on Ryu that Bob takes, these
have never been forgotten.
Had they been it would be necessary for all karatemen to take up some
Kungfu or jiujitsu to learn them.
Not a bad idea at that.
But the Okinawan styles do teach a type of jiujitsu,and the techniques
come from kata, and are called bunkai oyo.
John
fin_fa...@webtv.net
Welcome to the Kinder, Gentler AMAKS.
:-)
The order refills came in plenty soda, the Popcorn Machine has been
retooled, and the decanters are full, plus I've had all the Wingbacks
Scotchguarded(tm) and the Chandeliers are all dusted.
A lot of work but its a classy place and was worth it.
Genjumin
fin_fa...@webtv.net
Different schools.That's why.Also some people nicer than others.:-)
'I don't view every move as a finishing technique.'
That's potentially. Can also be a control, an evasion, a stun, etc.
But when one views them thus, one has an nteresting practice of them, to
analuyz how that could be.
'Some are, some aren't.'
When you see them do it with each technique , you become a believer.I
may be talking out of school here, but in 1985 my teacher showed his two
senior black belts a Tape made of Taika Oyata, doing moves of each of
the twelve Kenpo Kata.This is not a commercially available tape as far
as I know. I think only instructors had it.But not sure.
Anyway, on this tape, he does a finishing move for every move of every
one of the twelve katas, to black belts doing real all out attacks, and
takes them out of the fight with each one.
Mostly he uses tuite locks, holds and takedowns, until, for sake of
demo, he comes to the Twelfth kata, Niseishi.
He uses each successive move in this kata to knock an attacker
unconscious.
We got our eyes opened that day.
Now, I suppose people could argue, that wsn't what the designer had
intended the kata for.No one will ever know that, its a Chinese form.
But what ws real apparent was two things:He did, at speeds such that it
could be seen what and how he did, by us anyway who did that sttyle ko's
which required some legngthy resuscitaion maneuvers.They went down hard
and fast, one shot, each time, not like these other guys, as Shadowjack
says.
He did the moves as he did them in the kata.As on the tape he did the
kata first.Adjusted for stance and positioning of course.
And at least it looked to us like, he could with not much more effort,
killed everyone with those moves.
So that demo, plus my teacher's , and on me, and the explanations that
I received, and things I later figured out working on them,,and learned
too, from Chinese sources, led me to that conclusio, that every move in
every classical kata, is potentially a finishing move.
A shotgun can scare, nick, wound or miss, can be loaded with rocksalt
or buckshot, or a deerslug, but its primary purpose its to kill
something.
So with a kata.I remember reading this one Goju man sayng, that in the
Goju kata, the maneuvers were to break the bones of a person with a
weapon.That could be considered a setup for a finishing move I suppose.
But really, I don't know who made those katas, so I don't know for sure
that they are for that.All I know is that they can be used, for what my
teacher said.Every move for a takeout.That I believe for I have seen.
Regards,
John
fin_fa...@webtv.net
Taikyoku One-Three
Heian One-Five
Bassai Dai
Kanku Dai
Tekki One-Three
Hangetsu
Jutte
Empi
Gankaku
Jion
Ten NoKata Omote
Ten No Kata Ura.
That's twenty.Leaving five out destroys the flow of the original
Funakoshi ha Shoto Ryu, 1935-57 versions, and takes out the bridge from
kata to kumite.
Which leads to modern shotokan.
All the extra kata were either reintroduced or acquired, depending, and
then the bridge was left out and the Taikykus dispenssed with, but now
JKA or what used to be JKA has Taikyoku Shodan back, at shodan(!) maybe
for teaching?
What everyone has basically done is say the Old Man didn't know what he
was doing.
I like to think of him as in the picture taken in his home in 1935,
eating and drinking with all those Okinawan masters, and seated next to
his buddy, Choki Motobu, public rival and private drinking chum.
Get wise, people!
Devon Oslund
> On Thu, 12 Jul 2001 05:37:21 GMT, "Devon Oslund"
> <devo...@elevatedtemperaturepostalservice.com> wrote:
>
> >Rob's mood swings should not be taken too seriously.
> >
> >Drove me batty until I figured that one out.
>
> I'd further say that pretty much anyone on Usenet shouldn't be taken
> too seriously. After all you are all figments of my imagination, or
> AI programs running in the router.
Shawn!
Please!
We are certainly NOT running on the routers. Routers just shuffle packets
here and there, and don't run much besides RIP and OSPF and so forth.
I, personally, am running on several clustered NT5.0/2k DataCenter Server
machines attached to a SCSI raid 10 array. Personally, I would rather be
running under Solaris or one of the BSDs, but I would have to be rewritten
to use a different API, so I have to make do.
At least they give me plenty of RAM and disk space, so I am unlikely to
cra0000: 00240004 00720001 00000000 80040033 0010: 0000012d c0000013
00000000 00000000 0020: 00034200 00000000 00000000 00000001 0030: 00000000
0000002a 0000c402 00023a00 0040: 0000002a 0000a101 00000010
warning (#157) symbol 'enterITask' is not marked as
weak,
but its library 'ioTask' is
warning (#157) symbol 'killITask' is not marked as
weak,
but its library 'ioTask' is
warning (#157) symbol 'newITask' is not marked as
weak,
but its library 'ioTask' is
warning (#157) symbol 'statusITask' is not marked asweak,
but its library 'ioTask' is
warning (#157) symbol 'idleITask' is not marked as
weak,
but its library 'ioTask' is
error (#81) symbol 'exitITask' undefined
execution of interface.cout.nntp.alt.martial-arts.karate.shotokan terminated
Shawn Jefferson
<devo...@elevatedtemperaturepostalservice.com> wrote:
>We are certainly NOT running on the routers. Routers just shuffle packets
>here and there, and don't run much besides RIP and OSPF and so forth.
Yes, well that is what they have programmed you to say isn't it?
>I, personally, am running on several clustered NT5.0/2k DataCenter Server
>machines attached to a SCSI raid 10 array. Personally, I would rather be
>running under Solaris or one of the BSDs, but I would have to be rewritten
>to use a different API, so I have to make do.
Only a net.kook would write such software to run under Winblows,
validating my whole thesis. The trolliest troll of them all, wasting
five years of my life talking to computer programs!
>At least they give me plenty of RAM and disk space, so I am unlikely to
>cra0000: 00240004 00720001 00000000 80040033 0010: 0000012d c0000013
>00000000 00000000 0020: 00034200 00000000 00000000 00000001 0030: 00000000
>0000002a 0000c402 00023a00 0040: 0000002a 0000a101 00000010
#define RELIGION 1
#define KARATE 2
TROLL_T *random_troll_table;
TROLL_T *random_troll;
int on_topic = 0;
random_troll_table = malloc(sizeof(TROLL_T) * 5000);
random_troll = random_troll_table;
build_troll_table(RELIGION);
srand(time(0));
random_troll += rand();
execute_troll(random_troll);
random_troll_table = malloc(sizeof(TROLL_T) * 5000);
random_troll = random_troll_table;
build_troll_table(KARATE);
random_troll += rand();
execute_troll(random_troll);
free(random_troll_table);
Henry Norris
> Ahh ! Now I understand. When you say core you are talking about
> the Heian, plus the sente no kata, plus tekki shodan - shodan test
> requirements.
Core Funakoshi Kata
(Henry's Opinion Only and also our shodan test reqs) :
Heian 1-5
Tekki 1
Bassai Dai
Enpi
Jion
Kanku Dai
Hangetsu
Optional Funakoshi kata that Henry likes a lot:
Gankaku
Kanku Sho
Sochin
Gojushiho Sho
Jitte
Jiin
Other kata Henry will learn one day when life permits:
Sanchin
Tensho
Saifa
Seienchin
Kururunfa
Nipaipo
Suparenpei
>
> Contradiction : who would keep the knowledge alive for the students
> to choose their favorite advanced kata/s if say the first generation
> teachers were not required to know all 26 or 27 ? Very soon you
> would be left with just the 11 you have in mind. And perhaps that
> is even happening.
Who said it was up to me to preserve all karate knowledge for generations to
come? Do I have to preserve all this 'extra' stuff so others will be able
to learn them? Nope. I'm not out to save the world.
> Disagreement : imo practicing kata so diverse as sochin and kanku
> sho or gankaku is an antidote to the tournament sparring driven
> simplification. Keep those alternative substyles alive, if anything
> add more from the two cousins, says me.
I'm confused because I see tournament karate players performing those kata
quite well in the finals. Why should anything I practice be considered
keeping an alternative substyle 'alive'? Is Ten no Kata gonna fade from the
Earth because I dont practice it? Get real!
I am not Luke Skywalker nor Obi wan Kenobi!
I am
HenryJ
Henry Norris
> Hey, Gabriel - read again - he said keep 15, axe 11.
>
> So, what are he 15 'core' kata ?
>
Why take my word as scripture? Which ones do you think are the core? Keep
those.
Then go outside and look for others that aren't shotokan cannon!
HenryJ
Devon Oslund
> On Fri, 13 Jul 2001 07:28:30 GMT, "Devon Oslund"
> <devo...@elevatedtemperaturepostalservice.com> wrote:
>
> >We are certainly NOT running on the routers. Routers just shuffle packets
> >here and there, and don't run much besides RIP and OSPF and so forth.
>
> Yes, well that is what they have programmed you to say isn't it?
>
> >I, personally, am running on several clustered NT5.0/2k DataCenter Server
> >machines attached to a SCSI raid 10 array. Personally, I would rather be
> >running under Solaris or one of the BSDs, but I would have to be
rewritten
> >to use a different API, so I have to make do.
>
> Only a net.kook would write such software to run under Winblows,
> validating my whole thesis. The trolliest troll of them all, wasting
> five years of my life talking to computer programs!
Actually, 2kPro/2kServer is pretty stable. You must be used to 98.
And I am not just any computer program, you know.
-"Devon"
Paul Tanenbaum
> The link below is working for Hyakuhachiho aka Suparenpei. For those who
> decide not to read the article, the kata is simply Kanazawa Sensei's
> version of Suparenpei.
> >
> > The SRSI has an article by Scott Lippacher it includes the text &
> > videos of him performing the kata.
> > http://www.angelfire.com/my/srsi/5ed/hyakuintro.htm
> >It is in fact a shotokanized version of Suparenpi
Looks pretty dull.
Like a long Hangetsu, with a bunch of mawashi-uke.
What does it offer that the current shotokan canon doesn't?
If I'm going to learn a new kata, it has to offer something
novel. Like Tensho, that was different.
---
Paul T.
Gabriel Brega
<snip>
>
> I'm confused because I see tournament karate players performing those kata
> quite well in the finals. Why should anything I practice be considered
> keeping an alternative substyle 'alive'? Is Ten no Kata gonna fade from
the
> Earth because I dont practice it? Get real!
>
> I am not Luke Skywalker nor Obi wan Kenobi!
>
Oh - I'm sorry. I didn't mean to stress you out with a lot of
responsibilities.
I thought when you suggested a reduction of the number of kata to practice
you were talking from a shotokan teacher's pov, not from the point of view
of
your preferences alone.
Like, should we have a national curriculum in our school system or not,
you know, policy and such, not what you personally like your kids to
do.
And yes, some competition athletes are pretty good at performing Unsu,
but that is not what I meant.
Gabriel
ToudiYama
Maybe from the idea that it takes 3 years of training(every day) to
comprehend a kata fully
times 26 kata is it? makes 78 years and seeing that most of us don't train
every day you could actually do this times 3 again well I dont live 234
years so I can't comprehend all kata anyway
so those who want to comprehend fully may want to axe
those who want to know as much kata as possible should accept that they
probably won't ever fullt comprehend them all
ToudiYama
"Gabriel Brega" <gbr...@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:9ilfef$ahp$1...@slb5.atl.mindspring.net...
George Winter
wrote:
>
>Maybe from the idea that it takes 3 years of training(every day) to
>comprehend a kata fully
>times 26 kata is it? makes 78 years and seeing that most of us don't train
>every day you could actually do this times 3 again well I dont live 234
>years so I can't comprehend all kata anyway
>so those who want to comprehend fully may want to axe
>those who want to know as much kata as possible should accept that they
>probably won't ever fullt comprehend them all
You are under the misconception that kata knowlege is unique and
linear.
If I spend your required 3 years on Kanku Dai, do I have to spend 3
years on Heian Yon Dan? I don't think so. Many of the moves are
repeated, Tekki represents different movements, but 1/2/3 share many
movements & concepts.
Obviously Funakoshi never followed your advice, in fact none of the
Okinawan Kata masters did, were they not comptetent to teach the kata?
This 3 year plan, for what period does it require a teacher? For the
first 6 months perhaps? If so perhaps our goal ought to be to master
some number of personal kata and learn the rest well enough to be able
to teach them to others who might want to master those instead of our
favorites.
By the way your 3 year plan sounds like something your teacher once
said, it does not sound like sound pedagogy. Repetition is a helpful
tool but what you really need to do to understand a kata is master the
performance elements (pretty trivial if you know karate), learn the
combat "tips" that are included, possibly model your entire defense
system on the approach suggested by the kata.
--
George
_____________________________________________________________________
George Winter gwi...@q-sys.com
Qsys Ltd.
Information Systems Consulting
Gabriel Brega
ToudiYama <ya...@cable.a2000.nl> wrote in message
news:KUP47.24642$4m4.5...@amsnews03.chello.com...
>
> Maybe from the idea that it takes 3 years of training(every day) to
> comprehend a kata fully
How many hours a day ? Can you practice more than one kata
at the same time or do you have to (Hitotsu:-) be faithful to one kata
at a time as you are to your significant other ?
> times 26 kata is it? makes 78 years and seeing that most of us don't train
> every day you could actually do this times 3 again well I dont live 234
> years so I can't comprehend all kata anyway
> so those who want to comprehend fully may want to axe
> those who want to know as much kata as possible should accept that they
> probably won't ever fullt comprehend them all
What does 'fully comprehend a kata' mean ?
Are the JKA instructors who know and can teach 26-27 kata all
234 years old ?
Gabriel
Gabriel Brega
George Winter <gwi...@q-sys.com> wrote in message
news:qk58ltg845c55fa0a...@4ax.com...
> This 3 year plan, for what period does it require a teacher? For the
> first 6 months perhaps? If so perhaps our goal ought to be to master
> some number of personal kata and learn the rest well enough to be able
> to teach them to others who might want to master those instead of our
> favorites.
>
Well said.
This way we can hope to maintain a genetically diverse enough style.
Otherwise we'll all end up looking alike, like those guys in 'Deliverance'.
Gabriel
Bob McMahon
wrote:
>By the way your 3 year plan sounds like something your teacher once
>said, it does not sound like sound pedagogy. Repetition is a helpful
>tool but what you really need to do to understand a kata is master the
>performance elements (pretty trivial if you know karate), learn the
>combat "tips" that are included, possibly model your entire defense
>system on the approach suggested by the kata.
From what I can gather, self-defense responses to common assault
situations were taught to students first of all. They learned the
techniques solo, then put them into effect against a partner in a
simulated role play.
Lastly, a number of these responses were linked together, often using
an intermediate move which provided a link between two 'chunks', and
enabled changes in direction. The links had application of their own
but were often used in kata to assist with the geometric
configuration.
By studying the individual elements that make up our art, it is
possible to visualise how they are utilised in the kata. Without a
structured approach though, each kata is like another foreign
language.
We need to understand the basic elements, ie the kicks, punches,
strikes, blocks and stances and associated foot work and how they can
be applied in a variety of ways. By then recognising where the
'links' have been inserted, one only needs to study the 'unique' waza
in any of the kata to determine the meaning and purpose.
That's the theory anyway!
Bob
fin_fa...@webtv.net
did follow the well-known Chinese-Okinawan Hitostu kata san nen( one
kata three years) plan, and the 'rule of three', spend three years each
on three kata, then one polishing all, then you learn whaever you want
of any others.As fast as you want, you have your stuff together now for
at least one to three forms, body mechanics, so on.
John
fin_fa...@webtv.net
Problem is, on Okinawa, the theory doesn't quite reflect the facts.
Probably the techniques predated the kata, but by the time they got to
Okinawa , kata were what was first taught.
Except in tegumi, Okinawan sumo, which like Judo, had a certain number
of techniques , among which are not, it appears, any karete 'flow
drills' as such.
At least, no mention is made of them in the tegumi portion of Nagamine's
book.
We dohear that tegumi, after being enhacned by strikes and kicks, became
the progenitorl it is thought, of 'te '.
If that is so, then wouldn't the sequence begin with paired and not
solo, techniques?
And if that is so, I ask not as an attack but as a serious question,
where did Okinawan Ti get the demonstrarted Chinese katas?
Sanchin, Seisan Nepai, Niseishi, Ueseishi, nipaipo,maybe passai,maybe
Naihanchi,maybe somne toerhs too, came from Chinese ch'uan shiu or
quanfa, right?
I doubt not the connection between tegumi or Okinawan sumo, with its
repertoire of throwing techniques, and the torite of Okinawan karate.
But I also think there is a connection between the arts of the jigen ryu
of Japan and the Okinawann udundi(palace hand), both of which were
apparently known to Matsumura of karate.
Too, I think the connection of Oikinawan folk dancing to some kata and
kata principles must be investigated further.
That according to Nagamine and others has a conncection.But what is the
connection? Perhpas no more than influending the manner of performance,
the odori or dance, of the kata.
First the technques of karate were developed singly, no doubt. How
otherwise could they occur? But I think a bit of nationalism has gotten
into the process here.
There are extant arts of Idia called kalaripayit, thousands of years
old, yes they are,and they have calisthenic warmups done as almost dance
movements, or a fluid yoga type thing, then they teach twelve forms,
kata, then they go on to two person excercises, then they teach to
person forms, then wqepons forms, one and two person, and they then
teach locking techniques and finally marma-adi, or point techinques and
ayurvdic healing, herbal and acupuncture type stuff, but predating the
Chinese things.
India is next door to China.
Is there supposed to be no connection betweeen these arts?Sure look
familiar and sound familiar.
The, next door to India, is Persia, containing a possibly even older art
called zurkhaneh, House of Strength, also extant. Dances while whirling
Indian Clubs, and a series of wrestling holds and techniques, then
weapons drills are taught.No kata here as such except the gynasitic
dance of the zurkhaneh which may be the oldest surviving pre kata on
earth.Occasionally zur khaneh is shown being performed in documentaries
on contemporary Iran.
So, when did kata first start beg taught? Long time before it got to
Okinawan, apparently.
Maybe the kata started as a comnbination of dance, yoga and warmup
calisthenics into which technique was gradually interwoven.But the
Okinawan kata, many of them anyway, have direct counterparts in China,
so saying that in Okinawa, fisrst techniques were taught solo, then with
partners , then in kata, appears to contradict existing accounts that
kata is the first thing taught, and then applications, with partners,
and no solo self defense techniques taught without partners.
Certainly with sumo we see partner training in individual technique, and
no kata as such, unless the dance before the ceremony is sees as a kata,
and in Okinawa, I don't know it this is done.
My point here is this: I don't see why we should postulate a theory of
successionn of training that is not supported by facts, in order to
promote an interpretation of karate training that isn't really affected
by what happened anyway.
It smacks a bit of what some pressure point folks have done in America,
coming up with theories that limit the ways in which kata can be
applied, because they say things like'there are no blocks in kata, (yet
blocks are taught in every ancient martial art from India and China)'
every cross step is a turn',(Okinawan masters whose teachers studied in
China teachthe tobikomi, jump in, with a cross step, to keep balance and
project weight into the opponent) 'kata applications are done in the
exact orfder and in the exact manner they are done in kata',(exceptmin
advanced timing katas, the moves are done indifferent ways and different
order) and so forth, to all of which I reasonably ask, Who Says? And the
answer is , that is the theory.That is a theory, but it isn't correct.
Okinawan masters whose teachers studied in China, and Chinese experts,m
also state things in contradiction to those theories.
The theories sound good until you check to verify them.
In same way, theory presented above sounds reasonable, except that the
existence of katas, verifiably, for thousands of years, in different
cultures, shows that it isn't necessarily so.
Grreek literature, such as Anabasis by Xenophon, from 400 B.C.,
describes the performance by soldiers, men, youth and women, or 'martial
dances ' while wearing armor and carrying weapons, spinning, jumping,
twisting, turning, striking, different ones, one called the Pyrrhic,
which were done as training, and also shown to visitors to impress them
with the martial abilities of the encamped army.
Did these affect India and later China, or vice versa, or did they all
get them from another source, ie ancient Persia?Babylon?Sumeria?
Soldiers are shown on Sumerian Temple bas reliefs doing patnered karate
like excercises identical to shorin ryu.
A seeming mystery until you see bojutsu and spear techniques done the
same way, you kind of have to move that way holding one.
But we read of the ancient warrior dances holding weapons and without,
and see them in the Polynesian dances, the male version of the Hula done
with spears, the Haka of New Zealand, resembling vaguely, Naihanchi
kata, and so forth.
Seems kata training may have come first or thousands of years, with
partner technique training secondary.
Solo basics? Not heard of on Okinawa until twentieth century.Solo self
defense tehniques w/o partner training? Why?
I think a new theory is needed, based on verifiable facts .Or junk the
theories and get to the training, no excuses.:-)
Many cultures ran in waves across the earth.Hindu culture has dances
showing karate like movements, and that culture became Polyneisan
culture, and then Buddhist culture came,also from India, and then there
were the Greeks and so forth, Alexander got around,who is to say what
originally happened, alll thes ecultues fought unarmed and armed, all
had katas.
Japan had systems teaching techniques, but with partners first.
Katas were two person.
But they have demonstrably learned these from China.
History suggests that the first arts were forms of wreslting, that
weapons came next, and strikes came from empty hand versions of weapon
strikes( knife hand, spear hand, hammer fist, axe and, et.)
That these strikes were demonstrated as part of complete techniques
against partners or things representing opponets is also testified.
Solo techniques in the air are a more recent development.
So, there are some alternative theories or more correctly, facts upon
which one may come to conclusions, but maybe, we should practice and
forget the theories.
Hitory is fine, but we shouldn't have to rewrite it or create it from
air, if we don't know, let's just say so and get on with it.
Again my point: Wrestling is old. Yes.It interacts with all arts and is
trained with partners in individual techniques.
Katas are old, they predate Okinawan ti by many thousands of years, as
we today have come to know it.The existence of literaure and art showing
katas,and also ancient partner training, show that probably katas and
partner training were first.
Maybe single two person techniques, then partner katas, then solo katas,
was the way it went.That's anyway how I see it at the moment, maybe
later I'll see it another way.
But we cannot ignore the records of history or of the oldest existing
martial artists who say,,they were taught the kata firsrst.then
applicatiins, and only as late as , in some cases, the forties and
fiftees, individual workouts of kihon were added.
Seems we had kata a long, long time, we had partner training, two man
forms, and ancient forms of kumite and tegumi,prearranged and not so
prearranged but not resembling modern free style, but there was not solo
self defense technique training into the air except in kata and that of
course was taught, one piece at a time,though shown as a whole.
But kata is Old.
John
Gabriel Brega
<fin_fa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:6694-3B5...@storefull-131.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
<snip>
> But kata is Old.
>
>
One could ask the same questions about dance - where does it come
from, what is the original motivation that brought people to move in
patterns
in what seems to be an absolutely non utilitarian activity - at a time when
the productivity of human labor, the surplus, was so scarce or inexistent ?
Then go and check out the residual primitive pockets of mankind, in
Africa or Asia, or check out folk traditions in Europe.
It seems that since times immemorable we like to move around in a
display of strength and daring, often armed with our swords,
scimitars, assagais, bows and arrows etc. Sometimes with fair
maidens watching and showing their hardware, sometimes to get
ready for something - maybe just another tough and uncertain day
in front of us.
Then this activity takes different routes : on one side we end up with
Unsu or Suparinpai, on the other with the Swan Lake.
Gabriel
Bob McMahon
wrote:
>Bob says:'That's the theory anyway!'
>
>
>Solo basics? Not heard of on Okinawa until twentieth century.Solo self
>defense tehniques w/o partner training? Why?
I was not referring to kihon Ido at all.
Bob
fin_fa...@webtv.net
Well, then , what were you referring to?
I don't think air self defense was first taught, then partner. I think
kata was first taught, the dance as Gadbriels excellent analysis showed,
and then partner apps.
Early Kata and early kumite.
Inna grapplin' arts, I believe what was fisrt taught ewas
bodyconditioning, then two person grappling holts and throws.
InSumo/tegumi, mostly throwing and off balancing maneuvers, with locks
and strikes and kicks added later. But these do not by themselves make
rate, and the kata did come, most anyway, from China, and some developed
off them later in Okinawa.
Don't look much like Swan Lake though, 'cept maybe that jump in Unsu.
Everyone say it with me now, HTDK.:-)
John
Bob McMahon
wrote:
>I don't think air self defense was first taught, then partner.
You don't think the students were taught how to form a fist, stand in
a balanced mannerm, and how to use their body to generate more impact?
You don't think that they were shown how to perfom the blocks with out
a partner first of all?
You don't think they were shown how to balance and chamber their leg,
form the shape of the foot to minimise dmage on making contact to
another?
They just start copying the teahers demonstration of kata! Hummnn..
I don't think the early pioneers had their students marching up and
down like they do today. Not that their is anything wrong in an
appropriate amount of that type of training for kata performance and
competition. But not for self-defense.
Some people don't realise that karate is no longer intended solely for
SD. Some people still live in the 70's and are no longer aware that
the world has moved on. Just as some people do not understand that
modern karate was based on an earlier art of self defense.
I think
>kata was first taught, the dance as Gadbriels excellent analysis showed,
>and then partner apps.
Monkey see, monkey do!
>
>Early Kata and early kumite.
>
No kihon at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>Inna grapplin' arts, I believe what was fisrt taught ewas
>bodyconditioning, then two person grappling holts and throws.
Karate is a grappling art as well as a striking art. Their are plenty
of examples to be found in the kata. Jujisu, Chin Na and Aikijusy all
had striking elements as part of thir art. I don't know where you get
these ideas from!
>
>InSumo/tegumi, mostly throwing and off balancing maneuvers, with locks
>and strikes and kicks added later. But these do not by themselves make
>rate, and the kata did come, most anyway, from China, and some developed
>off them later in Okinawa.
The tegumi drills that I leraned, hands on, all involved grappling and
striking and one of the most common ways of learning techniques was
through 'flow drills'. For those that just don't know, a 'flow
drill' is when the attack and defense flow from one side to the other
in a continuous exercise.
>
>Don't look much like Swan Lake though, 'cept maybe that jump in Unsu.
The jump in Unsu is a modern addition, often attributed to Yahara.
Unsu has been a very successful kata in competition fr Shookan kata
performers who don't give a horses arse what others think : )
>
>Everyone say it with me now, HTDK.:-)
>
The sound of one hand clapping methinks : )
>John
Bob
Roberto A. Alvelais
McMahon) wrote:
>The jump in Unsu is a modern addition, often attributed to Yahara.
>Unsu has been a very successful kata in competition fr Shookan kata
>performers who don't give a horses arse what others think : )
I would have thought that would've been Chinte!
;-)
Rob
R...@jko.com
Gabriel Brega
<snip>
> I don't think the early pioneers had their students marching up and
> down like they do today. Not that their is anything wrong in an
> appropriate amount of that type of training for kata performance and
> competition. But not for self-defense.
Also, I would say, to learn how to step doing a punch or a block,
or to evade from an attack. Which is useful, and not in competition
alone.
>
> Some people don't realise that karate is no longer intended solely for
> SD. Some people still live in the 70's and are no longer aware that
> the world has moved on. Just as some people do not understand that
> modern karate was based on an earlier art of self defense.
Some say wellness as well as self defense. Can't take only half of the
bubishi and not the other half.
This angle is another casualty of competitive sports karate, imo.
Gabriel
Bob McMahon
Goog points Gabriel,
At my dojo we focus on competition, self defense and fitness for the
young and health and self defense for the 'forever young' : )
Regards,
Bob
fin_fa...@webtv.net
for self defense."
Actually, when I hagng my shingle to teach, I always said and say,
Karate for health, physical fitness and self defense.
It was always for all three.
'Some people still live in the Seventies and are no longer aware that
the world has moved on.'
Seventies? I finally learned the inner stuff after training for twenty
years under one teacher, from 72-92.But yeah, I ddn't do too many Karate
tournaments after about the mid Eighties.As I really got into the kata
and self defense aspects of the arts, I realized that tournaments, like
weight lifting( western style) were just extra portions on my plate, and
dropped these.
As for the world having moved on, its funny you mention that.The world
Has moved on, far more than most of us realize.It is now possibe to
contact almost anyone on the lanet with Internet access and talk
directly to them.Like yesterday or so,when I got a correction email from
Okinawa, sent by a senior studentt of an Okinawan Tenth Dan whose
teacher, Kanbun Uechi, actually learned his art in Fukien Shaolin Temple
in China.Or at least in part.So I couldn't post it so I emailed Rob in
California and he put it u on AMAKS for me, thanks Rob.And we don't
think something is unusual about any of that?
I mean, its not like you can say, just one style or even three or four,
now. Knowledge is available for the reaching.
And its available from the best.
Gabriel's right. Can;'t take one half of the Bubishi and not the other
half.Toyama Sensei actually learned from Kanbun herbal treatments and
medical and health things, perhaps an entire system such as was
presented in the Bubishi.
Many of us had no idea such knowledge had survived into the modern
world.
'Just as some do not understand that modern karate was based on an
earlier art of self defense."
Such as that still taught by Taika Oyata, , as well.Again , who knew
that this knowledge was still around?
The interesting things here, to me at least, is that the whole structure
of karate hierarchy has changed to include lateral and diagonal
communications, as I will call them.
While we still have the Style heads, and the senior student junior
student structures, and these are necessary for transmission of
knowledge within an organization and maintaining stylistic integrity, we
also see the same people ow offering knowledge to any sincere students,
whatever their affiliations, and by means of Videos, Cd's, seminars,
visits, and we sure didn't see that in the Seventies like we do today.
The need for a strict authority does exist in the transmission of any
art, but the need in lateral and diagonal communications, is for trust,
truthfulness, and mutual understanding.
The place for learning today, is the Internet, when it comes to learning
about different ways of doing things.But those who use the internet must
realize that different rules apply here.
For instance, if someone says jump, anyone else need not ask, How
high?:-)
The sooner some learn that, the better their progress in the new world
of information sharing will be, imho.
Courtesy is a good place to begin.
( Now watch AMAKS fire on me for that one.:-)
John
George Winter
wrote:
>Actually, when I hagng my shingle to teach, I always said and say,
>Karate for health, physical fitness and self defense.
How does karate instruction promote health other than by increasing
physical fitness?
(or sparing you the injuries that result from a lack of self defense
:-)
Roberto A. Alvelais
<gwi...@q-sys.com> wrote:
>How does karate instruction promote health other than by increasing
>physical fitness?
>
>(or sparing you the injuries that result from a lack of self defense
>:-)
Part of it, is the postural qualities in the idea of correct
karate movement. These concepts are consistant with those
postural ideas that are supposed to develop proper chi/qu/ki
circulation.
In that the chi/qi/ki theory of disease indicates that good
chi/ki/qi flow promotes good health, karate by promoting
this good flow, therefore promotes good health. That's
how.
Rob
R...@jko.com
Nowhere Man
> wrote:
.
>
> Karate is a grappling art as well as a striking art.
Shotokan karate, as commonly taught? Unfortunately not. A few locks and a
sweep or two does not a grappling art make. If it ain't in the
shodan/nidan/sandan grading syllabus, is it really in the art?
Now I know what you meant - the precursors to modern Shotokan incorporated
significant grappling. And other karate styles still incorporate it at a
fundamental level, but not shotokan.
As Marc MacYoung says, it's amazing how many arts suddenly discovered they
did grappling all along once the Gracies came on the scene.
Nowhere Man
Jake
wrote:
>On Fri, 20 Jul 2001 07:50:41 -0500 (EST), fin_fa...@webtv.net
>wrote:
>
>>Actually, when I hagng my shingle to teach, I always said and say,
>>Karate for health, physical fitness and self defense.
>
>How does karate instruction promote health other than by increasing
>physical fitness?
>
>(or sparing you the injuries that result from a lack of self defense
>:
How about overuse type injuries? That is a minus...
-Jake
Tazman
> As Marc MacYoung says, it's amazing how many arts suddenly discovered they
> did grappling all along once the Gracies came on the scene.
>
> Nowhere Man
I don't think we should focus on grappling, just know enough to be
dangerous/comfortable there. The reason being contrary to what most
JJ schools claim most fights do not go to the ground. Funny how
ground schools claim this, eh? My facts are based on my and 3 cop
friends experience. In all of our situations going to the ground
would have got us severely beaten, and the cops probably killed.
Arseholes travel in packs.
I think the Gracies are excellent marketers.
Gabriel Brega
> On Fri, 20 Jul 2001 07:50:41 -0500 (EST), fin_fa...@webtv.net
> wrote:
>
> >Actually, when I hagng my shingle to teach, I always said and say,
> >Karate for health, physical fitness and self defense.
>
> How does karate instruction promote health other than by increasing
> physical fitness?
The two terms are really arrays of concept and conditions many of
which are mutually shared, don't you think ?
Remove from 'health' the concept of 'lack of acute disease processes'
and from 'fitness' all the competitive marginal optimizations, and you
are left with a set of conditions such as :
- weight control and its impact on :
- blood pressure and circulation
- heart functionality
- ability to perform cardiovascular exercises
- muscle growth promotion and toning and its impact on :
- ability to perform cardiovascular exercises
- the skeleton
- good posture and its impact on :
- proper alignment and maintenance of the spine, with all its irradiating
nerves.
- proper breathing, oxygenation
- blood circulation
- flexibiity and its impact on :....
- an assertive, optimistic, creative attitude and its impact on...
etc etc etc.
In fact, karate has this perhaps theoretically outdated section of
health related concepts, hints and exercises, which, instead of being
forgotten in a competition only or 'self defense' only interpretation,
should perhaps be revisited and enriched with what we now know
of how the body works.
Prevention is not Western - and especially US - medicine's forte.
We have become very good at resuscitating the dead, curing
very complex diseases, reattaching fingers, penises and now whole
hands, but at the same time we are ravaged by stress related heart
conditions, obesity, stress or 'weakness' (can't find a better term,
sorry) related addictions, and many other epidemics of the body
and the soul which we can't seem to be able to control.
And the linkage between health maintenance / disease prevention
and physical activity is not really un-Western, it's just being forgotten
by clinical entrepeneurs and diluted in an overload of often contradictory
prescriptions to develop steel buns, six-pack abs etc. Cerchez l'argent,
once again.
When my dad had TB as a kid (no penicillin then, TB was a pretty
good ticket for the big dojo in the sky) his doctor prescribed him
bicycling and breathing at the beach - before 9.00 a.m. to avoid
the UV rays which were believed to be bad for his condition.
He survived and became an amateur boxer and a paratrooper
officer.
Now, at 82, he still does his (stationary) bicycle every morning.
>
> (or sparing you the injuries that result from a lack of self defense
> :-)
>
That too :-)
In fact, your 'life protection way' should really comprise both
PE/fitness, a lifestyle congruent with the activity ( again, weight
control, no booze, no sex - AHEM - in order to save the ki that,
as we all know, is a finite and nor renewable resource, rest and
as much harmony as possible ), *and* training in all manners of
scary kata applications both to enjoy ourselves and to prepare
for that generally unlikely encounter with Fate. Imho, that is.
Gabriel - trying not to be too pompous
Gabriel Brega
<snip>
> At my dojo we focus on competition, self defense and fitness for the
> young and health and self defense for the 'forever young' : )
>
Can't even begin an argument here :-) Your nagashi uke was
masterful and your guard is as tight as it can be.
But, just for kicks - what is this thing of fitness for the young and
health for the rest ? Don't the youth need to be healthy ? Don't
the other ones need to be as fit as they can be ?
Gabriel
fin_fa...@webtv.net
health other than by increasing physical fitness?
(or spraing you the injuries that result from a lack of self defense?:-)
Well, of course, in those two ways, it does.
That used to be a controversil assertion, although it was one the old
style practitioners consistently maintained.
But medicine has now and some years back, confirmed the connection
between excercise and longevity, and only recently a study confirmed
that fat people, say who excercise, tend to live longer than skinny
people who do not.
Regular moderate excercise reduces stress, lowers blood pressure,
combats and controls diabetes and such disorders,although it does not
cure them as far as anyone yet knows,and in genral, releases endorphins
making for general feeling of well being, which itself promotes a
pshychosomatic refftct on health, also recognized by doctors.
So in addition to physical fitness as maesured by ability of increased
endurance, strength, speed, and cardiovascular conditioning, there are a
whole gamut of other benefits that arise from excercise.
This while karate, as with any other well rounded activity,promotes
physical conditioning, it also promotes heatlh, though it cannot
guarantee it or prevent all illnesses or mishaps,it does nevertheles
promote it under normal conditions, and provided self defensive ablity.
To the Okinawans for instance, all three are sides of one coin. One
cannot defend oneself if one is too sick tto move, and one cannot defend
oneself at an optimum without some kind of physical fitness, although
they mean even at the age of one hundred, so the type of PE that even
someone that old, can do, as certain kata can still be performed by
people of advanced ages.
Even if one practises regularly a few minutes a day, perhaps a couple or
three reps of a favorite kata, like maybe, naihanchim, soft sanchin, or
seisan, whatever it may be,the legs benefite, the circuation benefits,
the whole body and general overal sense of physical well being benefits,
and the difference at seventy or eighty, heck even fifty, between an
active karate practitioner and someone who has become sedentary, is
pretty distant.
Including normal health indicators, , sugar levels, oxygenation of
blood, etc. Been tested.
While this holds for all excercise programs, the self defense abilities
given by the actual karate kata centered activity,
are somethingonly martial arts programs can add with no extra work, in a
physical sense. This indeed is the work, the beneficial health and
Physical conditioning are the effects of the work.
No one of course, should think it is magic, always also ask advice from
Doctors, and any additional or supplmemental training one may need,
walking, special weiht training for overcoming weaknesses or injuries,
phys therapy, etc., should be favored in especially for older folks.
In my program, we do some simple taiso, rotation calisthenics, and some
aerobic stepping while doing the eight hands self defense drills, but no
pushups and situps and so forth,and I will state here that I do kiho and
kihon ido( stepping) basics, as familarization with kata maneuvers and
as done in Shorin ryu.Before those and after the eight hands we do
Foundation and Placement drills.
After kihon ido, we do some two person drills out of kata,then we work
kata , and this csan take up much time, a full workout can be three
hours but is possible to do a short class in one half hour for self
defense only or one hour for that plus karate, centered on one kata at
a time.
Kihon are then taken from the moves unique to each kata.
So for the first kata, fukiyu gata ichi,
there are five kihon, then for the second kata, five plus seven, twelve,
and so on.
When doing all eighteen kata, one hundred kihon give or take, thus the
three hour workouts.
Finally one can workout with kata alone, and practice apps on an
as-desired or as-neeeded basis.
Mostly for experimentation and learning new principles and ways to
create new techniques.
But its a pretty heathy thing, if you take care to train progressively
and not over train.Course we all gotta watch out for that one.:-)
Regards,
John
fin_fa...@webtv.net
factor.Doctors say.I believe it.
fin_fa...@webtv.net
proper postural sequencing of kata.
Oh yeah, and that too.Forgot about that, that's one reason they say not
to make your own katas unless you know about that part, you might make
one that goes the wrong way or something.
Well, by Golly, that is true, everyone has moved some way one time or
another and said to themselves, 'I'm not gonna do That again, ever!:-)'
Yoga postures, Tai Ji, Kung Fu, Karate, all are based on that.
Now, if anyone wishes to scoff at this, first of all, we don't really
know what the entire definition of that is.There is no doubt that blood
oxygenation is aided by proper postural development in connection with
breathing, and nerves are stimulated by increased oxygenation, thus
promoting inseveral ways, vitality promised by the ch'i/ki theory.
That these facts, whatever the reasons ascribed thereto, were known and
observed thousands of years ago, by doctors of the time, as well as
warriors, scholars and wandering hermit meditators,we know, because
records of the results of particular training methds have survived,
millennia old. Yoga Sutras of Patanjali comes to mind, Chinese treatises
also.
Whether all this knowledge came about empirically, or was some way
tested as some records also indicate and some of that may not have been
so humane, but that was the past, or whetehr, some wise beings or Sages,
call them what you will, were inspired with the knowledge and revealed
it to mankind, or whether all of the above and some things we don't know
about, occurred, I'm for that last btw,we hae the knowledge handed down,
and modern science has confirmed for instance, that regular, circular
and semicircular movement,breathing deeply and naturally while so
doiing, is good for you.
That constant and regular movement strengthens muscle and bone we also
know, same reasons, empirically and medically.
Put all of this together with ch'i/ki theory, and we get, this type
movements and these type postures, generally allowing for maximum
freedom of movement and breathing while enabling efficient defense,will
increase your health and vitality in every imaginable way.
Note, for impatient modern folks: The Chinese theory is much different
in one important way from modern sceintific theory:Modern medicine has
determined that ones body immediately eins to benefit from good
moderatedd excercise. Chinese theory says that is good for you also, but
also states that for the real benefits to begin to occur, the time spent
daily excercising needs to be a minumum of several years.
I note in the autobiography of several famous practitioners of the
martial arts who begn because of ill health at whaever time in life,
that they dsaid their diease went into remission, only after they had
practiced a total of some years, in one case, five and a half, every
day.
This was Tai Chi master Che'ng Man-Ching,who had had Tbderculosis and
began at the age of thirty-seven to do Tai Chi under Yang, Ch'eng-Fu,
creator of the Yang Style.
One asks , would most people nowadays trying to do an excercise program
to help their health, even life threatening, stick with one for five and
a half years before seeing final results?
Maybe some would. Professor Ch'eng fathered several children, and lived
to the age of Sventy-five, before dying fromhe effects of a head injury
he had received from falling brick decades before when a young man.Of
interest, his Tuberculosis was comletely cured long before.
he became a renowned doctor(TMC) artist, scuplptor, and Poet as well as
calligrapher, in addition to being the foremost Tai chi master of the
later twentieth century, undefeated in challenge matches in mainland
china and later in Taiwan, coming to New York and teaching here until
shortly before his passing in Taiwan.
Had he not taken up Tai Chi for his health alone, he would not have
lived to do any of that. For this reason alone, martial arts is
recommended.
So,the ch'i/ki theory, whatever its scientifc merit, validity or lack
theroef, on empirical effect alone, is a life saver in terms
particularly, of preventive manitenance, health increase, and actually
in some cases, apparently , of curative results.
But you get a ruptured whatever, or some life threatener immediate
thing, you go to the Hospital or Qualified doctor.
It seems the chi/ki theory works better preventively or long term, and
the modern stuff is what you need right now for the you are gonna die
stuff.
Best of both worlds.
Of interest.As a young person I know who had hepoatitis and was told
never toengage in any contact sport, but did many decades of karate and
wound up disgustigly healthy.Another man broke his back and was told he
would never walk again, he later taught me shorin ryu, was a body
builder too and one of the fastest karate people I ever saw, with
lightning footwork.
Started doing his karate from a traction bed, until one day he got up
and walked out of the room, about a year later.
So, you neve do know.Ch'i/ki, power of the human spirit, sheer
cussedness and determination, wha? Use what words you will to describe
it, body hqass tendencey to be self healing, whatever, but it worked
that time.
John
Bob McMahon
<gbr...@sprynet.com> wrote:
>
>Bob McMahon <bob...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
>news:3b577e7e...@news.ozemail.com.au...
>
><snip>
>> At my dojo we focus on competition, self defense and fitness for the
>> young and health and self defense for the 'forever young' : )
>>
>
>Can't even begin an argument here :-) Your nagashi uke was
>masterful and your guard is as tight as it can be.
>
>But, just for kicks - what is this thing of fitness for the young and
>health for the rest ?
I have found most of my younger students enjoy a physical challenge
and thrive on competition. My older students are more interested in
maintaining a level of fitness that promotes good health. The two
groups do better in separate classes, for their own sake : )
Don't the youth need to be healthy ? Don't
>the other ones need to be as fit as they can be ?
The degree of intensity is different between the classes. You need
to have a high level of cardiovascular fitnes for competition sparring
IMO.. a moderate level is better for the not so young who don't spar
in competitions.
Bob
Nowhere Man
Tazman <tazma...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a30c8691.01072...@posting.google.com...
> I don't think we should focus on grappling, just know enough to be
> dangerous/comfortable there. The reason being contrary to what most
> JJ schools claim most fights do not go to the ground. Funny how
> ground schools claim this, eh? My facts are based on my and 3 cop
> friends experience. In all of our situations going to the ground
> would have got us severely beaten, and the cops probably killed.
> Arseholes travel in packs.
Agreed. My grappling sensei always says 'you never want to go to the ground
if you can help it'. But we do a lot of striking as well, so we're not
questioning the whole validity of the art when we say this. You do need
quite a bit of experience to prevent yourself going to ground against even
an untrained (but strong) fighter once you've clinched, and also to turn it
around quickly on the ground in order to get back to your feet. At least a
year of grappling training my experience to do that (eg learn and practice
enough escape drills against the common pins). On the other hand, against a
lone opponent where you can stay to win on the ground, even a few lessons
gives a good advantage.
Against an average grappler, I reckon your average karateka is going to the
ground 8-9 times out of 10. Again based on some personal experiences.
> I think the Gracies are excellent marketers.
And excellent martial artists too. Kind of a pity that the shine has come
off in the last couple of years. The NHB arena now seems to be owned by the
No-Style crowd. Big, strong, kicker, puncher & wrestler. Lesson there for
us?
Nowhere Man
Gabriel Brega
> Use what words you will to describe
> it, body hqass tendencey to be self healing, whatever, but it worked
> that time.
>
The human body is constantly regenerating itself, at cellular level as well
as tissue and organs level..
Certain stimulations and challenges or lack thereof change it structurally
for the better or the worse.
Think of what happens to your leg muscles after just 3-4 weeks of
being immobilized in a cast. Your quad and calf muscles will waste
away to maybe 25-30% of their mass and strength. Then you'll need
rehab starting with leg extentions with resistance, and you are best
work on it seriously otherwise you'll start favoring your weaker leg,
taking a crooked posture, or you'll risk and injury.
Our body is really a whole - modern medical science mostly concerns
itself with the fixing of failing parts, not with the maintenance of the
working system. Nor with that still largely uncharted territory of the
workings of the human mind and the way psyche relates to the
physical self. 'Stress' is really as vague a concept as ki, yet we all
know that it exists and that it does serious damage.
Yoga, karate etc. belong to a different cultural stage, where what now
appear as separate and highly specialized disciplines were grouped
together in a theory of wellness, perhaps not very efficient in dealing
with acute diseases, wounds, fractures etc, but concerned with
maintaining health through physical education in a much broader
sense than the term now has.
Specialization is good, technical advances in all medical sciences are
very good. Biotechnology is promising.
The down side is delegating one's health to pills and doctors,
losing the habit of self management and believing all fads.
You see that all the time in the diet industry : pills, eat only proteins
and
fats, no, only carbohydrates, no, slim fast and a sensible dinner etc etc.
My great aunt used to say "you need to leave the table feeling still
a little appetite". That's the secret of the ancient on this. Ah, and
of course they did not have sodas, which are evil incarnate.
Gabriel
Gabriel Brega
<fin_fa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:6694-3B5...@storefull-131.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
>
> In my program, we do some simple taiso, rotation calisthenics, and some
> aerobic stepping while doing the eight hands self defense drills, but no
> pushups and situps and so forth
Why ? How do you maintain the tone of those muscle groups ?
Gabriel
Gabriel Brega
Nowhere Man <nowhere...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Dye67.16293$N97....@news.iol.ie...
>
>
> Against an average grappler, I reckon your average karateka is going to
the
> ground 8-9 times out of 10. Again based on some personal experiences.
>
In what scenario ? The only one I can see that can end that way is
either dojo sparring with the karateka striking with control, or, in
a real confrontation, the grappler attacking from close.
When a friend of mine head butted that guy on the bridge of the nose
with no courtesy notice the only thing he could do was to fall back
four feet and sit on his ass for a bit. Same thing the other guy did after
I hit him on the plexus with a roundhouse kick.
Gabriel
Gabriel Brega
<snip>
>
> I have found most of my younger students enjoy a physical challenge
> and thrive on competition. My older students are more interested in
> maintaining a level of fitness that promotes good health. The two
> groups do better in separate classes, for their own sake : )
Makes sense. Good policy.
>
> Don't the youth need to be healthy ? Don't
> >the other ones need to be as fit as they can be ?
>
> The degree of intensity is different between the classes. You need
> to have a high level of cardiovascular fitnes for competition sparring
> IMO.. a moderate level is better for the not so young who don't spar
> in competitions.
I think cardio is good for everybody. Say 25-30 kata in one hour
at a brisk tempo, plus few hundred reps of selected waza.
Unlike with kumite, you are not pushed by someone else's initiative,
and you can lower or heighten the intensity even as you follow the
count.
Gabriel
Bob McMahon
<gbr...@sprynet.com> wrote:
>
>I think cardio is good for everybody. Say 25-30 kata in one hour
>at a brisk tempo, plus few hundred reps of selected waza.
>
>Unlike with kumite, you are not pushed by someone else's initiative,
>and you can lower or heighten the intensity even as you follow the
>count.
I prefer more partner work.
Bob
fin_fa...@webtv.net
along, once the Gracies came on the scene.'
Well we did Judo in the Sixties, and we did grappling, all
along.Throwing, locking and a few other things, too.Knew how and why and
when.
But in 1972, when I started, after four and a half years of Kodokan
Judo, and earlier two and a half or so of jiujitsu(merican Chop Suey
Ryu:-), in Okinawan Kenpo, we did armor sparring, and didn' stop when
knocked down, and did ground fighting fromthe floor, using kicks,
sweeps, leg takedowns with legs, locks and other things. Long time
before ever hearing of Brazilian Jiujitsu.
So did many styles of Kung Fu.
Now, In Matsubayashi ryu, which I studied soon after and concurrently
with, Kenpo, we did no ground fighting whatever.I don't say it wasn't
there, just we didn't do it, no free sparring either,but we knew that
our power delivery system allowed us to punch and strike and kick from
the ground equally powerfully as standing.
Since the system involved avoidance, one tended in actual situations not
to go to the ground, but to the side.:-)
After which, everything working properly, the opponent Would go to the
ground.
As far as everone now doing ground grappling, its an idea whose time
should have come long ago. Wrasslin' is a fun sport, good exercise and
great conditioning.Gets you in shape for arate and stuff.
Almost all the second generation American karateka such as myself, were
originally judoka, as that art, when we started , was often the only one
available where we lived.
Garb the early ones, they'd take you down and torque on you.:-)
John
fin_fa...@webtv.net
Well, if you train a little more sensibly than most gung ho karate
people tend to make their studetns do, and make sure its a well rounded
workout, these can be minimized if not entirely eliminated, but after
all, you can hurt yourself while standing, walking, or even lying down,
so with karate, adequate warmpps, and a cooldown, again, you condition,
not decondition.
Most martial artists go too hard with karate, and that will hurt you.If
you center on kata however, one tends not to injure oneself but to build
oneself up.
This is something that the old styles teach but the new ones, working on
more sporting theory, do not in the same way.
Its a trade off.The older system of shorinn ryu karate for instance, or
Kempo, or which ever one, uses a more circular type movement, more
natural stances, and less sheer athleticism, more of a gentle swinging
motion which is allowed to accelerate at target point but without the
deliberate focus on 'kime' that modern styles have done.
More like the kung fu 'jin' or martial power, that one builds the
muscles around the joints up before attempting.
Like hitting a home run, you don't feel impact as such when done right.
Other guy does though.:-)
Overuse will and can happen, if training is not done sensibly, no matter
old philosophy or new one. Perhaps age is required to learn this lesson
properly.
Just as walking a mile or three, depending on condition, can feel great,
walking ten or fifteen can wear you down.
But if you walk a mile every day, or three, you can do ten or fifteen
when you have to.
There is a minimum point of conditioning one has to attin, and then
when greater efforts are needed, they can be made.
If you work up to where every day you can do three full speed kata with
power delivery, when you have to, you can defend yourself in similar
mode.
Any situation you can't do the endurance for that takes longer than
three katas do, is called war or a pitched battle at the least.For that
type thing, the hour or three long basics workout is preparation.
For the self defense situation, the three kata workout is enough,
nightly or daily.Once the conditioning is there, that is. If you can't
get through one kata right without wheezing, that is called not training
at all.
Way I see if I'm inn optimum or optimax condition, right off, is to do
the Yara Kusanku form all the way. Eighty moves, some dificult, like a
crescent kick into three sixty spin and drop, if I'm not breathing hard
at finish of three of them, I am in top condition.
If onn the other hand, I could not get through one Naihanchi One kata,
one time, normal speed,call the doctor, I'm sick.
Its a Chinese way of looking at things.If you can do that, you must be
okay. If you can't , something must be wrong.
John
Gabriel Brega
Different focus - no prob.
My point however was that energetic kata practice can serve
as cardio and overall fitness exercise for young and old alike, whereas
competitive sparring practice, and the drills associated with it, can be a
little too energetic for older guys. Also, kata has a predictable course,
competitive jyu kumite does not. No good for weak knees.
Do you disagree with that ?
Gabriel
Bob McMahon
<gbr...@sprynet.com> wrote:
>> I prefer more partner work.
>>
>
>Different focus - no prob.
>
>My point however was that energetic kata practice can serve
>as cardio and overall fitness exercise for young and old alike, whereas
>competitive sparring practice, and the drills associated with it, can be a
>little too energetic for older guys. Also, kata has a predictable course,
>competitive jyu kumite does not. No good for weak knees.
>
>Do you disagree with that ?
>
>Gabriel
So instead of say Tae Bo or Cardio Karate routines, you practise kata
25 or 30 times? I prefer that my older guys train with a different
purpose to what you are describing.
Fitness is specific to what you do in your daily life. If you are fi
enough to achieve all the physical demands placed on your body and
prepared for a few unexpected ones.. then that may be enough.
Being super fit doesn't equate to being super healthy. Health is
maintained through a balanced approach to things like diet, exercise,
management of stess, and enjoyment of life IMO.
So what I disagree with is your concept of kata as a fitness routine.
Bob
fin_fa...@webtv.net
incarnate."
Apparently, they are.
Orange juice on the other hand, turns out to be really good for the
body.
How can orange juice be good and sodas be bad?
One of lifes mysteries. According to cutting edge holistic doctors like
Andrew Weil, the more we mess with food, processing, refining, combining
it, the worse it is for us,and the less we alter it, the better.
Orange juice, green tea, blueberries, nuts, fish, and such, have
tremendous health benefits, and a well rounded selection of food to add
to this.
Such is both ancient and modern wisdom.
To bad about the sodas, though.
John
Gabriel Brega
<fin_fa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:26222-3B5...@storefull-132.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> Gabe says: and of course they did not have sodas, which are evil
> incarnate."
>
> Apparently, they are.
>
> Orange juice on the other hand, turns out to be really good for the
> body.
>
> How can orange juice be good and sodas be bad?
Too much orange juice is also not good for you.
I am talking about sugars here - bad for you in general, if not
kept to a small consuption.
Better to eat an orange, imo.
Water, water. That's the best drink. Our bodily fluids - remember
Dr Strangelove :-)
Gabriel
Gabriel Brega
>
> So instead of say Tae Bo or Cardio Karate routines, you practise kata
> 25 or 30 times? I prefer that my older guys train with a different
> purpose to what you are describing.
Here we go - I was wondering when you would drop the civilized
mask and start the namecalling.;-(
Whatsamatteryou anyway - you never did kata in a leotard ?
That's where the chicks are, not in smelly dojo.
>
> Fitness is specific to what you do in your daily life.
I disagree. Western lifestle is generally so unnatural and sedentary
that it requires no fitness - on the contrary it promotes illness and
early deterioration of body systems and functions.
Forget about Billy Blanks and the likes - think for a second that
our discussion is about swimming, or running, or any other physical
activity of your choice. Maybe you'll see my point more clearly.
> If you are fi
> enough to achieve all the physical demands placed on your body and
> prepared for a few unexpected ones.. then that may be enough.
That's exactly the problem - life these days, and in our parts, is so
full of conveniences and so much based on sitting all day, whether
at a desk or at the wheel, that not enough demands are placed on
one's body to keep it healthy - imho and in the opinion of about
everybody else.
Problem here is not so much being able to defend against an unlikely
attack - for which other means are available anyway - but to be
able to run a few yards without your heart blowing a gasket
to catch Lord Monte so that he does not get hit by a utie.
Of course, LM is , ahh, vertically challenged and a little on the plump
side, attractively so, mind you, and that may influence your concept
of an unexpected run - my Penny the Dobie otoh is as fast as
the wind, so when I had to run after her to avoid lawsuits from
the neigbors I had to run real fast. And in my underwear, which
was really unexpected and very entertaining for my whole 'hood.
>
> Being super fit doesn't equate to being super healthy. Health is
> maintained through a balanced approach to things like diet, exercise,
> management of stess, and enjoyment of life IMO.
Of course this is true. But let's try to be a bit more specific.
I have heard from a lot of sources that three weekly sessions of cardio
activity is enough to maintain cardiovascular fitness.
That means getting to a cardio mode (about 10 minutes), keep
it for 20-30 minutes, slowing/cooling down (another 10 minutes).
More than that, they say, gives 'athletic' gains but no substantial
gains in health preserving fitness, so to say. Less than that does not
give you much.
Then there's the issue of the muscular/skeletal system which must
be kept in good working order to support the cardio activity.
Kata, and perhaps some qigong exercises, sounds better and better
to me.
Unless you see karate training as very technical, and you do your
general conditioning elsewhere.
>
> So what I disagree with is your concept of kata as a fitness routine.
Every block is also a strike and every turn is also a throw - and since
you are at it, you may as well wanna make it work for your health
and fitness. That's the one fight we can't talk our way out of.
The idea of practice as 'sweat till you drop' is not really
new or bizarre - pretty standard in the MA, hence my surprise.
They even say it serves the purpose of hardwiring the responses
through repetitions, besides promoting spiritual and physical
endurance.
Gabriel
Jake
<gbr...@sprynet.com> wrote:
>Too much orange juice is also not good for you.
You can get way more calories in you than you should by drinking a lot
of juice. Excessive juice consumption seems to be linked to obesity
in children. Parents seem to think that it's a good substitute for
four sodas a day. Just a couple servings a day at most seems to be
sensible.
-Jake
fin_fa...@webtv.net
Whle I must agreee with nowhere man that anaverage karateka, new style,
and with no grappling or grappling defense training,gonna bite the
pavement eight or none times out of ten against a grappler skilled in
getting inside a karateka range quickly enough:-) ,I hasten to explain
that the reason the nostyle guys are on top in NHB is that NHB ain't.
Barred are: small circle (finger and wrist) locks, and locks including
those.Pressure point attacks, and certain 0ther techniques.
Note that the really nasty traditional jiujitsu and old style karate
arsenal will now become not doable against said Hulks.
I would have estimated six months to become mat effective, but the
lessons today aren't as long as they were back in my Judo days.
Here's the thing: Old style taught defense against grappling and judo
attacks.Timing had to be right, but then it was move ack at an angle and
strike, lock the neck or shoulder(s), hit vital areas when you do this,
and drop 'em.
Always worked for us, ut when I would spar also using judo, on mat, with
karateka in modern styles and with no grappling, but some breakfall
ability, guess what used to happen then, every single time.
And not cause I was so great either, this was at shodan in karate,
sankyu at judo.
They got dumped, big time, heck I didn't need to go to the mat cause
they always did, less they too, knew judo or jiujitsu, then a fun time
was had by all.
Back then before I had any appreciable knowledge or skill of the kata
apps, it is noteworthy that the opponents who gave me fits in these
contests were invariably practitioners of one or another style of
Jiujitsu or Hapkido.
After learning those many years later, some tables were able to be
turned,but you still had to be quite careful, those guys recognized no
technical boundaries, it was all their game.
Got to where I used to tell karate people to learn judo or be forever
vulnerable, and tell karate instructors that in devising and teaching
waza, we had to acquire a jiujitsu mentality, i.e., the complete waza
type of thing.
Its a way of explaining the old ways.
Got to where I suggested a non literal translation of jiujitsu,
'effective techniques.'
regards
John
Bob McMahon
<gbr...@sprynet.com> wrote:
>
>Bob McMahon <bob...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
>news:3b59f69...@news.ozemail.com.au...
>>
>> So instead of say Tae Bo or Cardio Karate routines, you practise kata
>> 25 or 30 times? I prefer that my older guys train with a different
>> purpose to what you are describing.
>
>Here we go - I was wondering when you would drop the civilized
>mask and start the namecalling.;-(
What!?! : )
>
>Whatsamatteryou anyway - you never did kata in a leotard ?
>That's where the chicks are, not in smelly dojo.
Hummnn.. now your true personality emerges : )
>
>>
>> Fitness is specific to what you do in your daily life.
>
>I disagree. Western lifestle is generally so unnatural and sedentary
>that it requires no fitness - on the contrary it promotes illness and
>early deterioration of body systems and functions.
It is your right to disagree.. but you are wrong : )
>
>Forget about Billy Blanks and the likes - think for a second that
>our discussion is about swimming, or running, or any other physical
>activity of your choice. Maybe you'll see my point more clearly.
>
No, karate may be a sport for some but it is my hobby, passion and my
income, albeit, a small income : (
>> If you are fi
>> enough to achieve all the physical demands placed on your body and
>> prepared for a few unexpected ones.. then that may be enough.
>
>That's exactly the problem - life these days, and in our parts, is so
>full of conveniences and so much based on sitting all day, whether
>at a desk or at the wheel, that not enough demands are placed on
>one's body to keep it healthy - imho and in the opinion of about
>everybody else.
We are discussing karate and its practitioners, wamder off on your
own, I ain't going there with you. : )
>
>Problem here is not so much being able to defend against an unlikely
>attack - for which other means are available anyway - but to be
>able to run a few yards without your heart blowing a gasket
>to catch Lord Monte so that he does not get hit by a utie.
I could not catch his lordship even when I was younger and at peak
fitmess.. he is like lightning : ) Over 100 metres anyway!
>Of course, LM is , ahh, vertically challenged and a little on the plump
>side, attractively so, mind you, and that may influence your concept
>of an unexpected run -
Bite your ass : ) Monte may be on the compact side but I assure you,
he is all muscle and teet.. GRRRRRRRRRRR (down Monte, he knoweth not
of what he speaketh.. he is American : ) Ooops : )
my Penny the Dobie otoh is as fast as
>the wind, so when I had to run after her to avoid lawsuits from
>the neigbors I had to run real fast. And in my underwear, which
>was really unexpected and very entertaining for my whole 'hood.
I see the headlines.. " Near-naked pervert tries to abduct do" <GRIN>
>
>>
>> Being super fit doesn't equate to being super healthy. Health is
>> maintained through a balanced approach to things like diet, exercise,
>> management of stess, and enjoyment of life IMO.
>
>Of course this is true. But let's try to be a bit more specific.
>I have heard from a lot of sources that three weekly sessions of cardio
>activity is enough to maintain cardiovascular fitness.
>That means getting to a cardio mode (about 10 minutes), keep
>it for 20-30 minutes, slowing/cooling down (another 10 minutes).
>More than that, they say, gives 'athletic' gains but no substantial
>gains in health preserving fitness, so to say. Less than that does not
>give you much.
>
>Then there's the issue of the muscular/skeletal system which must
>be kept in good working order to support the cardio activity.
>
>Kata, and perhaps some qigong exercises, sounds better and better
>to me.
Now listen here boy, I never said anything about not practising your
kata.. specifically we practise kata for health, of course the benefit
is, we get fitter for performing our kata. However, we also receive
therapeutic benefits as well, no argument.
>
>Unless you see karate training as very technical, and you do your
>general conditioning elsewhere.
I ensure we get at least 20 minutes od CV work during each class and
some general weight resisting exercises and even some moderate
isometric exercise. But, I teach karate, if my students want to work
more on fitness. I send them to a gym.
>
>>
>> So what I disagree with is your concept of kata as a fitness routine.
>
>Every block is also a strike and every turn is also a throw - and since
>you are at it, you may as well wanna make it work for your health
>and fitness. That's the one fight we can't talk our way out of.
>
Not every block is a strike and not every turn is a throw, and some of
the kata are next to useless as a reservoir of SD techniques. : )
But a karate teacher is supposed to teach karate.. s/he is not a
Doctor or a Gym Instructor nor a Priest, Just teach karate!
>The idea of practice as 'sweat till you drop' is not really
>new or bizarre - pretty standard in the MA, hence my surprise.
>
No it's not but marching up and down and endless repetitions of kata
as a fitness tool is bizarre to me.
>They even say it serves the purpose of hardwiring the responses
>through repetitions, besides promoting spiritual and physical
>endurance.
Well they are full of BS because the practise of the response itself
against a simulated situation is what is necessary for hardwiring
IMNSHO.
Good talking to you. I'm not against your PE approach, its just not
what I want to do : )
Highest Regards,
Bob
(I don't call nobody no names : )
>
>Gabriel
>
>
>
Nowhere Man
Gabriel Brega <gbr...@sprynet.com> wrote in message news:9jbub8>
> In what scenario ? The only one I can see that can end that way is
> either dojo sparring with the karateka striking with control, or, in
> a real confrontation, the grappler attacking from close.
>
Two things you notice when sparring a good grappler: (i) without lots of
practice it is very difficult to prevent them grabbing you whenever they
want, (ii) once they've grabbed you, they're so damned sticky! You can't get
them off without lots of practice.
Your average shotoka has never practiced this (hell, your average shotoka
never practices grappling, has never cross-trained in a grappling art).
If the fight stays at kick/punch distance, the striker wins. If the fight
closes to grappling distance, the grappler will win. The goal of the
grappler is to close the distance without taking too much damage. The goal
of the striker is to prevent the distance being closed. The grapplers I know
(I guess I'm one of them) are quite willing to take (glancing) strikes and
have effective methods of feinting and protecting themselves as they close
the distance.
You start a few feet apart in fighting stance, the first few seconds are
like a stand-up fight, then he throws a punch or kick, you block with a bit
of body movement but in that moment he's got his hands on you. Now he's at
your right hand side with his arms around your waist and his head against
the back of your shoulder and how do I get this guy OFF me. One of his legs
traps yours and now you're unbalanced, and falling...
I don't mean to refer to you, Gabriel, but a lot of karateka talk rubbish
about thinking they can defend against this without practice. You have a
split second to land your strikes and you have one chance because he won't
let go after. Not an effective fighting proposition, putting all of your
eggs in that split second basket. It IS difficult to practice this without
gloves and head gear and body protection because without lots of contact you
don't know if your strikes would have connected well.
Now, the good thing is that most street punks know less about grappling than
they do striking. So if you are grabbed you're more likely to survive.
But it's a major weakness in karate and John's post(s) better describe the
problem and solution.
Regards,
NWM
fin_fa...@webtv.net
fitness routine.'
It can be so used, but imo must be specifically tailored to the person't
needs, to be so used, which I am sure is how Gabe does it.
He's pretty sharp, you know.
I personally use kata as a fitness routine when not otherwise
teaching.Saves extra unnecessary effort.
Work smart, not hard, is the motto for this.
But yes, it can be done in other ways.
As for heath, it does have good effects on it, but must also, as you
point out, be accompanied by proper diet, rrest, and medical
care.Obviously if you don't eat, you will sooner or later die.
To state the obvious.
John
Gabriel Brega
<fin_fa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:6062-3B5...@storefull-133.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
<snip>
> I would have estimated six months to become mat effective, but the
> lessons today aren't as long as they were back in my Judo days.
I have seen at the judo school where I am enrolling my kid the four
times I watched or participated that they don't do ground work
per se. I wonder, is this a coincidence or a trend ?
I remember when I was taking judo in the early '70s, maybe 25% of
the class was ground work. I was taught right away a few very
useful choking techniques and arm locks. I remember, and can still
apply, juji gatame and ude garami. U.G in particular we used to train
as a standard response to an overhead attack with a nightstick
or knife. Juji uke to the wrist of the attacking arm, leave the right
hand there (against right attack) stepping in, and perhaps hitting the
triceps of the attacking arm with the left, apply U.G. It's pretty quick,
once you try it a few times, and once you have the lock, he is yours.
But then again, if he is not alone ...
Gabriel
Gabriel Brega
>
> Two things you notice when sparring a good grappler: (i) without lots of
> practice it is very difficult to prevent them grabbing you whenever they
> want, (ii) once they've grabbed you, they're so damned sticky! You can't
get
> them off without lots of practice.
If you are talking about sparring where both competitive karate and
judo rules/restraints be applied, that may be true.
If you talk about unarmed combat, life and limbs at stake, things are
different, imho.
The whole idea of karate training is - in the offensive or
counteroffensive stage - that of a high impact blow to an area of
the body where this blow can cause immediate damage, and
either disable the opponent or deny him the initiative.
That's the reason for makiwara and power generation training,
as far as I understand it.
In the defensive stage, the idea is to either avoid the opponent's
attack by straight or angle evasions, positioning yourself for an
immediate counter, or to block/counter in the same action (ex.
tekki 1, sochin ), or to attack the attacking limb with
kansetzu waza of a breaking kind (H2, nijushiho), or of attacking
the legs of the opponent.
Competition sparring people may have a limited familiarity with
close quarter techniques, or may have developed kime only
partially, but are generally very good at reading the opponent's
moves, and at keeping the right distance, sweeping and
setting up offensive combos.
Kata SD types often prefer close distance, uratzuki, kage tzuki,
empi uchi, when they don't get into the real gross stuff (Yuk ! ).
In either case, a trained karateka should be able to hit, that is
to concude his technique, at the point where the grappler is just
about starting his technique. Without even mentioning kicks,
which can also be very effective.
Question - have you ever been hit in such a way as to be denied
the initiative, either because KO'd, or because you became
confused for a few seconds, or because your morale collapsed ?
>
> Your average shotoka has never practiced this (hell, your average shotoka
> never practices grappling, has never cross-trained in a grappling art).
Exactly because the method chosen is different.
I think it is more logical for a karateka to trust a gyakutzuki
(thousand of repetitions under the belt) than an o soto gari,
the same way as it is more logical for a judoka the other
way around, and for the same reason.
There is one issue I thnk is worth mentioning when comparing grappling
with striking, and that is a possibly higher flexibility of response for
grappling. Maybe. And that 'maybe' does warrant for a striker to
invest time in a limited number of throwing/controlling techniques.
Crowd control instead of fire at will, so to say. And it's fun.
>
> If the fight stays at kick/punch distance, the striker wins. If the fight
> closes to grappling distance, the grappler will win.
A little abstract, imo. Distance is either kept or closed by the
interaction
between the two players.
The striker should strike as soon as the distance closes, and strike
decisively, or refuse by stepping back, to the side etc.
Besides, even at close quarters or when grabbed the striker should
have some initiative available. Jion for instance has some good ideas
against front cloth grabs and tackles, imho.
Plus elbows, knees, hook punches, groin punches or grabs, pressing
kicks to the knees or insteps, whatever is open, 'cause grapplers are
not octopusses and do have openings. Just keep hitting.
> The goal of the
> grappler is to close the distance without taking too much damage. The goal
> of the striker is to prevent the distance being closed. The grapplers I
know
> (I guess I'm one of them) are quite willing to take (glancing) strikes and
> have effective methods of feinting and protecting themselves as they close
> the distance.
Glancing strikes from skinny and introverted karateka - sounds like a good
program to me :-)
Choose thy enemy and know thyself - you'll win a hundred battles :-)
>
> You start a few feet apart in fighting stance, the first few seconds are
> like a stand-up fight, then he throws a punch or kick, you block with a
bit
> of body movement but in that moment he's got his hands on you. Now he's at
> your right hand side with his arms around your waist and his head against
> the back of your shoulder and how do I get this guy OFF me. One of his
legs
> traps yours and now you're unbalanced, and falling...
Now wait a minute - your karateka here is sound asleep. Where is
his counter ?
>
> I don't mean to refer to you, Gabriel, but a lot of karateka talk rubbish
> about thinking they can defend against this without practice. You have a
> split second to land your strikes and you have one chance because he won't
> let go after. Not an effective fighting proposition, putting all of your
> eggs in that split second basket. It IS difficult to practice this without
> gloves and head gear and body protection because without lots of contact
you
> don't know if your strikes would have connected well.
Don't worry - I may very well be talking rubbish. My experience is
limited, and I claim no expert knowledge.
I am however not stating that striking is better than grappling. What
I am saying is that at this stage I believe that the two approaches
may very well have been designed to achieve two different goals.
I heard from an aikidoka friend of mine that Ueshiba used to say
that in training it is 90% grappling , 10% hitting - in a fight it would
be 90% hitting, 10% grappling. Makes sense.
Hit before controlling, control after hitting if necessary.
>
> Now, the good thing is that most street punks know less about grappling
than
> they do striking. So if you are grabbed you're more likely to survive.
I don't know. Here I have heard that one common tactic is a tackle
to drop you, after which they kick you silly on the ground.
What are you doing around those street punks anyway ?
Gabriel.
Gabriel Brega
<fin_fa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:15096-3B...@storefull-134.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
>
> Don't look much like Swan Lake though, 'cept maybe that jump in Unsu.
>
Last night I was watching World Music on Worldlink on the dish,
and there were these Afro-Venezuelan singers, dancing at the rythm
of their song, or perhaps singing at the rythm of their dance, what
seemed to be a pretty faithful rendition of a sexual intercourse.
Imagine now some experts hundreds of years from now, interpreting
that kata as a manual of sexual education, or human development,
like I think they call it at my kids' school, and trying to figure out
the applications for each move, pelvic thrust and gyration etc.:-)
Or perhaps creating flow drills. <GGG>
Gabriel
fin_fa...@webtv.net
and that people knew there, what to do about being grabbed.
All your karate guys had wrassled at least as kids, we did too, come to
that, where I grew up.
Bear in mind that in Japan, Shotokan may have not messed much with
grappling because every japanese male high schooler gets at least two
and sometimes four years mandatory Judo as P.E.
Figure two to four years of judo, and whenyou go to take karate, its
sporting aspect really allows only sweeps, maybe now some hip throws.
But you got that much judo, why bother?
Anyone, repeat anyone, with two to four solid years judo training under
his belt, can deal with skilled grapplling attcks because they Are
skilled grapplers.
The love grapplers to come in standing up and get a head beside their
waist, an arm on their shouder.
They will be glad to help that fellow on their way,with any number of
throwing waza.
I used to take on High School wrestlers in that time, and whip them
easily, standing.
Never once had to go to the mat with them, as when they came in , they
were in positions that invariably made them suckers for certain throws.
The wrestler's crouch, for example, was made for hiza guruma, or knee
wheel, and when they'd grab under the shoulder, I'd grbb over the neck,
and over they'd go for numerous variations of Hip throws.
Now, I recall, there was on throwI did goto thre mat with them on, but
that ended the match every time.O Soto Makikomi.:-)Wraparound throw, you
land right on their ribs.
Collegiate wrestlers however were a much better trained breed.I never
got to fight them standup, they insisted on starting from mat position,
and we were usually, if all I used was Judo, equal there.
Always wanted to get them to standup first, though. I think, then, I
could have taken them over.
However-wrestlers who are taught judo tend to learn very, very quickly,
and get very, very good, and become nearly unbeatable in grappling.
Those individuals you need the joints and points to have a chance with.
Too, a fast shooter who comes in low and not very slow, is a dangerous
opponent.Matter of fact, they can kill you, and all they need is to get
one leg about one half inch off the ground, and you are pile driven,head
first, into the floor.
So never let that happen. back away and srike, learn the sprawl and
flip, the cross face, and other manuevers, and anyone knowing you know
this won't be so danged eager to do that to you.
John
Tomu.Michi
Fruit juice and vegetable juice are almost empty of fiber.
While an apple and the juice of an apple have almost the
same sugar and vitamin value the apple is richer in fiber.
The raw apple triggers the releases saliva as you chew it and
also the fiber regulates the release of sugar and vitamins
over a much longer time.
The abrupt changes of blood sugar related chemistry seem to be
the key difference.
BTW: in Mexico and other paces they are fond of "fresh fruit
waters". Aqua Fresca..... try 1 part fruit juice and 4+ parts
water.
If you have kids keep "water-juice" in the refrigerator use a 1:4
juice to water ratio. In very hot climates consider adding 1/4
tsp per half gallon of sea salt. If the mix tastes salty it is
too salty.
Later,
mitch
--
Tomu.Michi
mitch...@NOSPAMcsd.sgi.com
Nowhere Man
<BIG snip>
Good responses. I think I can summarise what I think as follows:
Karate (and thus karateka) have the potential to employ effective
counter-grappling techniques. I agree with you there. However, these
techniques need to be practiced rigorously, ideally against good grapplers
not other karateka, to be effective. If you don't practice it it isn't going
to work. Most karateka don't practice it enough (or at all) so it is
unlikely to work.
>
> Question - have you ever been hit in such a way as to be denied
> the initiative, either because KO'd, or because you became
> confused for a few seconds, or because your morale collapsed ?
>
Sure. But these guys are NOT easy to hit!
> > If the fight stays at kick/punch distance, the striker wins. If the
fight
> > closes to grappling distance, the grappler will win.
>
> A little abstract, imo. Distance is either kept or closed by the
> interaction between the two players.
>
And it's ME being abstract? LOL!
> The striker should strike as soon as the distance closes, and strike
> decisively, or refuse by stepping back, to the side etc.
>
> Besides, even at close quarters or when grabbed the striker should
> have some initiative available. Jion for instance has some good ideas
> against front cloth grabs and tackles, imho.
> Plus elbows, knees, hook punches, groin punches or grabs, pressing
> kicks to the knees or insteps, whatever is open, 'cause grapplers are
> not octopusses and do have openings. Just keep hitting.
>
All I can say to anyone out there who has never used karate to defend
against grapplers, is find some guys and practice it. Use your karate
buddies if you have to. Maybe get some headgear, gloves and body armour and
practice getting your shots in. My early experiences were of finding it hard
to get the guys on the way in (they're sneaky), of it being
nigh-on-impossible to hit them effectively once they're in, and finally
being on the ground in seconds.
It took quite a while and a lot of drilling before I could handle it. But
then I became a grappler myself as well.
> Now wait a minute - your karateka here is sound asleep. Where is
> his counter ?
He missed. It happens a lot. Now what's the back-up plan?
> What are you doing around those street punks anyway ?
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