What exactly does "usu" mean? ^v^

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James Goldman

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Apr 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/2/99
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So what, exactly, does "usu" mean? Assuming that's how you spell it. It
could be "wusu" or something similar. It sounds something like "wuss",
and we say it all the time. It means something between "yes, Sensei", "I
understand" and "gimme your best shot!".

But, if anyone knows, what *exactly* does it mean and how is it spelt,
please? I assume I'm not calling Sensei a wuss, or I'd know about it :)

James

PC Jensen

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Apr 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/3/99
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Go http://www.amaks.com and search the archive for "ossu" and "osu". I
think the latest thread on the subject was sometime last Fall.

Another indispensable source of course is:
http://bigred.home.mindspring.com/shotokan_faq/terms.html

--
PC
aka "Kitaku"
http://inet.uni2.dk/home/pc
* *

James Goldman

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Apr 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/3/99
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PC Jensen wrote:
>
> Go http://www.amaks.com and search the archive for "ossu" and "osu". I
> think the latest thread on the subject was sometime last Fall.
>
> Another indispensable source of course is:
> http://bigred.home.mindspring.com/shotokan_faq/terms.html

Thank you. I read as much of the thread as came up, and the general
consensus seems to have been that "ossu" is vulgar and unnecessarily
macho. I quote :

"The shortest definition of osu: 'Yo! Whassup wid you!'"

Why do we say this in a respectable dojo (incidentally, mine is listed
on bigred.home.mindspring.com)?

And as for it being a contraction of "Ohayo gozaimasu": why would I say
"good morning" when what I mean is "OK, fire away"?

I remain somewhat confused.

James

PC Jensen

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Apr 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/3/99
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On Sat, 03 Apr 1999 11:45:15 -0700, James Goldman
<rocke...@DIESPAMMYBASTARDS.hotmail.com> wrote:

>PC Jensen wrote:
>>
>> Go http://www.amaks.com and search the archive for "ossu" and "osu". I
>> think the latest thread on the subject was sometime last Fall.
>>
>> Another indispensable source of course is:
>> http://bigred.home.mindspring.com/shotokan_faq/terms.html
>
>Thank you. I read as much of the thread as came up,

Good - as I recall, the thread had most of the important ingredients
of an AMAKS discussion.

>and the general
>consensus seems to have been that "ossu" is vulgar and unnecessarily
>macho. I quote :
>
>"The shortest definition of osu: 'Yo! Whassup wid you!'"
>
>Why do we say this in a respectable dojo (incidentally, mine is listed
>on bigred.home.mindspring.com)?

Beats me. In fact, in our dojo, we have almost stopped saying it
lately. Even the seniors find it increasingly silly to grunt something
they either don't understand or don't mean.

>And as for it being a contraction of "Ohayo gozaimasu": why would I say
>"good morning" when what I mean is "OK, fire away"?

Americans can greet you with the seemingly empathic and caring phrase
"How are you?" and mean: "You can drop dead right now for all I care".
That's not very different, is it?

>I remain somewhat confused.

That may well have to do with the kind of clarity you are seeking. :-)

James Goldman

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Apr 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/3/99
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PC Jensen wrote:
> Beats me. In fact, in our dojo, we have almost stopped saying it
> lately. Even the seniors find it increasingly silly to grunt something
> they either don't understand or don't mean.

Great. And in two weeks, a certain 8th Dan master is flying up from
Colorado (his name escapes me for the moment) to do a grading. Now I'm
going to feel a right berk saying "ossu" in front of him.

Incidentally, if it's common practice in the dojo to say it, should I go
right ahead as before, or should I be all pedantic and say "wakarimasu"
when Sensei teaches something, and "atari" when I mean to say that
kumite should begin? What about the blackbelts saying dojo kun in
Japanese? This is a serious question, because I'm equally averse to the
idea of appearing to try and teach something to people who are clearly
much better than me. On the other hand, if they've been doing it so
long, how come they don't know?

> That may well have to do with the kind of clarity you are seeking. :-)

This has always been a problem for me. The universe ought to be easily
understood by someone of my awesome intellectual powers. ;) j/k

James


ven...@webtv.net

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Apr 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/3/99
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James Goldman modestly states:"The universe ought to be quite easily

understood by someone of my awesome intellectual powers."

Possibly you have found a home here on AMAKS.

At any rate, I think you should take a tour of The Thirty Seven Cambers,
for orientation purposes.PC may give you the url, if he will.If you are
still sane when you are done,and Bushido Meditatio has not done for you,
you will be a finer person, with your character much imroved and your
mind well-controlled:-), when you return from this mind-altering
metaphysical excursion into a Taoist Computer-Guru's Post Asparagus
Pizza-Eating Nightmare.

Well James? You game?What Ho?

Regards, John Genjumin Vengel(Osu!:-)


ven...@webtv.net

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Apr 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/3/99
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I hasten to add I am one of the fiends who deciphered the Thirty-Seven
Chambers-Still a couple left Open.:-)


James Goldman

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Apr 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/3/99
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PC Jensen wrote:
> With a few notorious exceptions, this is what AMAKS does to its
> participants. :-) Anyway, if he expects you to "ossu" him, give him
> what we wants.

I thought that might be the best way.

> you can live with. The language issue is not a moral one, imo.

No, but still, don't you feel a little uncomfortable speaking someone
else's language in from of them? The problem is it takes me almost no
effort at all to imagine the equivalent e.g. a Japanese groupie saying
to an American rock-star: "You purees to sign aruburum?"

James

P.S. I have acertained that said master 8th dan is flying up _on a
plane_. I know. After all those years of bad ninja movies, I was
disappointed too.


PC Jensen

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Apr 4, 1999, 4:00:00 AM4/4/99
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On Sat, 03 Apr 1999 14:18:18 -0700, James Goldman
<rocke...@DIESPAMMYBASTARDS.hotmail.com> wrote:

>PC Jensen wrote:
>> Beats me. In fact, in our dojo, we have almost stopped saying it
>> lately. Even the seniors find it increasingly silly to grunt something
>> they either don't understand or don't mean.
>
>Great. And in two weeks, a certain 8th Dan master is flying up from
>Colorado (his name escapes me for the moment) to do a grading. Now I'm
>going to feel a right berk saying "ossu" in front of him.

With a few notorious exceptions, this is what AMAKS does to its


participants. :-) Anyway, if he expects you to "ossu" him, give him
what we wants.

>Incidentally, if it's common practice in the dojo to say it, should I go


>right ahead as before, or should I be all pedantic and say "wakarimasu"
>when Sensei teaches something, and "atari" when I mean to say that
>kumite should begin?

If you should manage to give him the impression that you understand
and speak some Japanese, he will probably say something that'll leave
you in the dark completely, thus pushing you farther up the creek. Why
not try English, if you want to experiment?

>What about the blackbelts saying dojo kun in Japanese?

Oh yes. More for you in the archive there, James, and at:
http://bigred.home.mindspring.com/shotokan_faq/dojokun.html
There is additional stuff in the 37 chambers - you can jump in at:
http://inet.uni2.dk/home/pc/amaks37/amaks11.html

>This is a serious question, because I'm equally averse to the
>idea of appearing to try and teach something to people who are clearly
>much better than me. On the other hand, if they've been doing it so
>long, how come they don't know?

You ask very good questions. Think about it before you make any
changes. To be right is not necessarily the same as being happy. In
the end, you are the only one who can decide what kind of compromises


you can live with. The language issue is not a moral one, imo.

>The universe ought to be easily
>understood by someone of my awesome intellectual powers. ;) j/k

This question, too, is to some extent covered in the archive. With the
right search words, you will find posts explaining how to perceive the
universe directly using zero intellectual power. :-)

Andrew Knowles

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Apr 4, 1999, 4:00:00 AM4/4/99
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James wrote:

>Great. And in two weeks, a certain 8th Dan master is flying up from
>Colorado

So *that's* the requirement for 8th dan. I think I shall have to
practise a bit more.

>(his name escapes me for the moment) to do a grading. Now I'm
>going to feel a right berk saying "ossu" in front of him.

So the fact that you are wearing white pyjamas in public does not
disturb you at all?

>Incidentally, if it's common practice in the dojo to say it, should I
go
>right ahead as before, or should I be all pedantic and say
"wakarimasu"
>when Sensei teaches something, and "atari" when I mean to say that
>kumite should begin?

Is it really going to make any difference if you exchange one foreign
word that few people understand for another foreign word that few
people understand?

FWIW, a few of the people in my dojo say "Moose".

>> That may well have to do with the kind of clarity you are seeking.
:-)
>

>This has always been a problem for me. The universe ought to be


easily
>understood by someone of my awesome intellectual powers. ;) j/k

Such modesty :). You'll go far.

Andrew

Andy Upton

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Apr 4, 1999, 4:00:00 AM4/4/99
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Hello all,
I am a 4th Dan Instructor of Shotokan Karate in England, and I was told that
" oss " is a bastardised version of the word " Bushi " ( warrior
) , which is how two martial artists would address each other when passing
in the street.
Andy Upton

es Goldman wrote in message
<370661BB...@DIESPAMMYBASTARDS.hotmail.com>...


>PC Jensen wrote:
>>
>> Go http://www.amaks.com and search the archive for "ossu" and "osu". I
>> think the latest thread on the subject was sometime last Fall.
>>
>> Another indispensable source of course is:
>> http://bigred.home.mindspring.com/shotokan_faq/terms.html
>

>Thank you. I read as much of the thread as came up, and the general


>consensus seems to have been that "ossu" is vulgar and unnecessarily
>macho. I quote :
>
>"The shortest definition of osu: 'Yo! Whassup wid you!'"
>
>Why do we say this in a respectable dojo (incidentally, mine is listed
>on bigred.home.mindspring.com)?
>

>And as for it being a contraction of "Ohayo gozaimasu": why would I say
>"good morning" when what I mean is "OK, fire away"?
>

PC Jensen

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Apr 4, 1999, 4:00:00 AM4/4/99
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On Sun, 4 Apr 1999 13:21:08 +0100, "Andy Upton"
<and...@mail.cybase.co.uk> wrote:

>I am a 4th Dan Instructor of Shotokan Karate in England,

Andrew has already told you once that posting your rank is against
this group's conventions. If you want to change our conventions you
have better make a good case for it. Repeating the same mistake won't
swing it.

>and I was told that " oss " is a bastardised version of the word " Bushi "

Horse manure. Keep your hearsay to yourself.

>which is how two martial artists would address each other when passing
>in the street.

Oh, they would? Where, when? You are ready to swallow any dosage of MA
myth and fairy tale, aren't you? If you have anything to do with
Shotokan, post something on Shotokan, and keep the BS to yourself. If
not, be gone.

George Winter

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Apr 4, 1999, 4:00:00 AM4/4/99
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On Sun, 4 Apr 1999 13:21:08 +0100, "Andy Upton"
<and...@mail.cybase.co.uk> wrote:

>Hello all,


>I am a 4th Dan Instructor of Shotokan Karate in England,

You have mentioned this before. I think it was pointed out that we
discourage posting our rank - in the end it is what you have to say &
how you say it that will convince others.

>and I was told that

>" oss " is a bastardised version of the word " Bushi " ( warrior
>) , which is how two martial artists would address each other when passing

Caveat: I don't speak japanese, but I've heard about 4 definitions for
Osu. Yours is a definition I have never heard before. I imagine it is
incorrect simply because Samurai had elaborate etiquette for
greeting other samurai in public.

re: the term martial artists: Other than samurai there were really no
"martial artists" in the country, at least as we would understand the
term. There were warior monk sects (I think they used large iron
studded clubs) but they had been mostly wiped out, peseants were
forbidden the study of arms for most of recent japanese history.


--

George
_____________________________________________________________________
George Winter gwi...@q-sys.com
Qsys Ltd.
Information Systems Consulting

Roberto A. Alvelais

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Apr 4, 1999, 4:00:00 AM4/4/99
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On Sun, 4 Apr 1999 13:21:08 +0100, "Andy Upton"
<and...@mail.cybase.co.uk> wrote:

>Hello all,
>I am a 4th Dan Instructor of Shotokan Karate in England, and I was told that


>" oss " is a bastardised version of the word " Bushi " ( warrior
>) , which is how two martial artists would address each other when passing

>in the street.


You are mistaken, the person telling you this was referring to your
personal lineage and not anything to do with karate or other martial
arts.


Rob
>Andy Upton

"Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world."
-Dave Barry

ANNE L TAYLOR

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Apr 4, 1999, 4:00:00 AM4/4/99
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Re: ". In a dojo in an English speaking country, even with the
Most Exalted Shihan, I really hope for you that you can choose to
speak your native language if you need to speak at all."
I want to make sure I understand you. Are you suggesting that, even if it
is a longstanding tradition in a dojo in (for example) America to use
Japanese terminology, some upstart should just go in and try to change that
and INSIST that the participants SPEAK ENGLISH?? What if the dojo has a FAQ
that clearly states that Japanese terminology is favored? <G> Seriously,
if this is your position I am a little surprised at the suggestion that
someone else's tradition be trashed. I don't believe you would stand for
the same revisionism here at AMAKS. My dojo has been around for thirty
years and many of the sempai have been training much longer than I. I would
never dream of defying well-established traditions.
If that's not your position please clarify.

PC Jensen

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Apr 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/5/99
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On Sat, 03 Apr 1999 20:42:31 -0700, James Goldman
<rocke...@DIESPAMMYBASTARDS.hotmail.com> wrote:

>PC Jensen wrote:
>> With a few notorious exceptions, this is what AMAKS does to its
>> participants. :-) Anyway, if he expects you to "ossu" him, give him
>> what we wants.

>I thought that might be the best way.

Unless you are ready to find out what happens if you don't. I can't
decide on your behalf, but my guess is you aren't. :-)

>> you can live with. The language issue is not a moral one, imo.

>No, but still, don't you feel a little uncomfortable speaking someone


>else's language in from of them?

If I am ordering food in rural Italy, no, but speaking Shotokanese or
Shogunese in the dojo (no matter who is present) and pretending it's
Japanese, I'd feel a damned fool, all right. That's one reason why I
didn't/don't recommend it. But it's still not a moral issue.

>The problem is it takes me almost no
>effort at all to imagine the equivalent e.g. a Japanese groupie saying
>to an American rock-star: "You purees to sign aruburum?"

Not equivalent in my book. As with me in rural Italy, your groupie has
no choice. In a dojo in an English speaking country, even with the


Most Exalted Shihan, I really hope for you that you can choose to
speak your native language if you need to speak at all.

--

Mark A Goetsch

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Apr 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/5/99
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PC Jensen <p...@eme.dk> wrote in message
news:3707faf4...@news.uni2.dk...


>Not equivalent in my book. As with me in rural Italy, your groupie has
>no choice. In a dojo in an English speaking country, even with the
>Most Exalted Shihan, I really hope for you that you can choose to
>speak your native language if you need to speak at all.

You have to seperate the language of the dojo (which in many cases is
Japanese) from the idea that you are speaking Japanese. It just isn't a
sensible idea. If we start just using 'English' terms (which is a mixture of
bastardised German and Anglo) then let us do so consistantly. That means
that we should refer to pizza as "crap on bread" or Hamburger as "Beef
Patti".

To explain the difference an example is in order. I occasionally train with
someone that spent the last 8 years in Japan. While he will say "Hai" as
well as use Japanese terms in the Dojo, he does not speak Japanese beyond
that. I asked him why and he just replied that it didn't feel right. So
clearly he sees a difference.

Mark


Eoin Clarke

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Apr 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/5/99
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In article <3706859A...@DIESPAMMYBASTARDS.hotmail.com>, James
Goldman <rocke...@DIESPAMMYBASTARDS.hotmail.com> wrote:


> should I be all pedantic and say "wakarimasu"
> when Sensei teaches something, and "atari" when I mean to say that
> kumite should begin?

No, you shouldn't.

Eoin

Eoin Clarke eo...@gol.com

Paul Willoughby

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Apr 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/5/99
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On Sun, 4 Apr 1999 18:27:37 -0700, "ANNE L TAYLOR"
<ATI...@prodigy.net> wrote:

> I would
>never dream of defying well-established traditions.
>

Why?

Paul

PC Jensen

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Apr 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/5/99
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On Mon, 5 Apr 1999 00:58:03 -0500, "Mark A Goetsch"
<no...@enteract.com> wrote:

>
>PC Jensen <p...@eme.dk> wrote in message
>news:3707faf4...@news.uni2.dk...
>
>
>>Not equivalent in my book. As with me in rural Italy, your groupie has
>>no choice. In a dojo in an English speaking country, even with the
>>Most Exalted Shihan, I really hope for you that you can choose to
>>speak your native language if you need to speak at all.

>You have to seperate the language of the dojo (which in many cases is
>Japanese) from the idea that you are speaking Japanese.

What you have to do is separate "terminology" (which in many cases
resembles Japanese) from the "language of the dojo" (which in most
cases in your country resembles English). See my reply to Anne Taylor.


--
PC Jensen
http://www.pc.suite.dk

PC Jensen

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Apr 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/5/99
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On Sun, 4 Apr 1999 18:27:37 -0700, "ANNE L TAYLOR"
<ATI...@prodigy.net> wrote:

>Re: ". In a dojo in an English speaking country, even with the


>Most Exalted Shihan, I really hope for you that you can choose to
>speak your native language if you need to speak at all."

Make it clear who you are quoting. Why do your readers have to page
around to find out?

>I want to make sure I understand you. Are you suggesting that, even if it
>is a longstanding tradition in a dojo in (for example) America to use
>Japanese terminology, some upstart should just go in and try to change that
>and INSIST that the participants SPEAK ENGLISH??

You didn't read and you didn't think. I said nothing about "upstarts"
insisting on anything. Like so many others, you confuse the
terminology question with the language that is spoken in the dojo:

Examples: If you have a question for your instructor, do you phrase it
in Japanese? I bet you don't, and I bet you can't. If your instructor
explains something to the class, does he explain it in Japanese? If
you are told that Monday classes have been cancelled, that you have to
clean up the locker room after you, that Bert has left the club to go
train somewhere else, that the grade test will be on Friday 13th, - or
any other stupid tidbit of information that needs to be passed around
the club: Do they give you all this information in Japanese? NO.

Name one dojo in America (with average, all-American students, of
course, we're not talking Japanese colonies here) that wouldn't fall
apart overnight if everything had to be communicated in Japanese!

If you can, you have also named a dojo where no questions, technical
or otherwise, are ever asked - and where no explanations, technical or
otherwise, are ever given. In that dojo, all that ever happens, class
after class, is the instructor grunting commands in his particular
rendition of "Japanese terminology" - a "language" without sentences,
syntax, or grammar. That dojo has deliberately chosen to minimize the
speed and depth of their students' learning.

So back to the quote you started with: If student James can't ask a
question in English or if teacher James can't give his English-
speaking students explanation or information in that language, James
is a fool paying good money for his right to be a fool.

As you see, terminology in itself covers only a small and trivial
subset of the communication that is needed in a dojo. A vocabulary of
some 3-400 phrases can be learned over a couple of years by even the
sub-average Joe/Joan - no matter how exotic and foreign the phrases
are. Terminologies are not languages.

Whether terminology should be "Japanese" or "English" has caused a
number of heated debates in AMAKS. I suggest you consult the archive.
The general sentiment is that terminology should be de-japanofied, but
so far, no-one has made a serious, systematic effort to do it.

>Seriously, if this is your position I am a little surprised at the suggestion that
>someone else's tradition be trashed.

I will trash any tradition I find stupid or harmful. Why is it that to
make a change, you have to think, reason, and argue, but to keep
things the way they are, no matter how sorry a state they're in, you
can just quip "tradition"? Bearers of tradition rarely think, reason
or argue about it - they have adapted it because someone told them to,
period.

>I don't believe you would stand for the same revisionism here at AMAKS.

Try me/us. You obviously have very little idea of what AMAKS is.

>My dojo has been around for thirty years and many of the sempai have

>been training much longer than I. I would never dream of defying
>well-established traditions.

If you would never dream of defying well-established traditions, what
could you possibly have to tell the rebels and misfits who built up
this forum? AMAKS was and is the only international public forum for
questioning and criticizing "well-established traditions" within
Shotokan. If you came to AMAKS to muse about the wonders of tradition
and to expose your gullibility (which you probably like to call
"loyality" or "humility" yourself) you have made a bad choice.

George Winter

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Apr 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/5/99
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On Mon, 05 Apr 1999 15:42:37 GMT, p...@eme.dk (PC Jensen) wrote:


nicely put

James Goldman

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Apr 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/5/99
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PC Jensen wrote:
> So back to the quote you started with: If student James can't ask a
> question in English or if teacher James can't give his English-
> speaking students explanation or information in that language, James
> is a fool paying good money for his right to be a fool.

> As you see, terminology in itself covers only a small and trivial
> subset of the communication that is needed in a dojo. A vocabulary of
> some 3-400 phrases can be learned over a couple of years by even the
> sub-average Joe/Joan - no matter how exotic and foreign the phrases
> are. Terminologies are not languages.

I agree.

We're not required to speak Japanese in the dojo. We do use the Japanese
terms for various techniques, but that just makes sense to me. Why
invent an English word when you already have a perfectly good one? Why
not, instead, simply use the Japanese word and *make* it English? This
is exactly what the English speaking world has been doing for the last
thousand years.

I've had a few arguments along these lines with a friend of mine who
lived in France for a few years. He thinks that the Academie Francaise
is a good thing because it helps to "preserve" the French language. My
position is exactly the opposite, that a living language should grab any
useful words it finds in any other language. I'm perfectly happy using
foreign words. If I wasn't I'd be speaking Old English and no one would
understand me.

What I am questioning is why we say "ossu" or "shomen-ni rei!", and why
the senior belts are expected to know dojo kun (a perfect example of
something that sounds good in Japanese, but would sound awkward in
English) in Japanese, when we lowly kyus say it in English. It seems
akin to the old Catholic church preaching in Latin, when nobody
understood it.

> Bearers of tradition rarely think, reason or argue about it - they
> have adapted it because someone told them to, period.

<WARNING: Anecdotal stuff ahead>

A woman was preparing a roast for dinner. Just before she put it in the
pot, she got out a knife and cut a slice off the side. Curious, her
young daughter, who had been watching, asked why she did that. The woman
thought a while, and then said "I don't know. It's just the way my Mom
used to do it".

This had her wondering, so she called her mother, who said the same
thing, namely that *her* mother had always done that. So they called the
great grandmother, who immediately said that it was because their pot
was too small to hold the whole thing, so she used to have to cut a
slice off of it.

</Anecdotal stuff>

Apparently this is a true story, and if it isn't, it's a good
illustration of what you are saying. Something gets carried along for
generations without any thought or reason.

Another example: Why do so many Yugoslavs hate each other? Because of
some battle in the fourteenth century? Talk about not thinking.

> If you would never dream of defying well-established traditions, what
> could you possibly have to tell the rebels and misfits who built up
> this forum?

Well, I'm not afraid to defy tradition, by any means. But that's in
areas where I have experience and the respect of others. By starting
this thread I only meant to get some info (always my downfall - what was
that about a cat and curiosity?). I'm far too green at this stage to do
anything but what I'm told. And yes, that's humility, I guess. Either
that or an unwillingness to look like a prat ;)

James
------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, guys, the spam filter stays.

Tom Mitchell

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Apr 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/5/99
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Skip the concern about ossu.

First get the man's name correct!

A polite bow from the class when a senior man/woman walks into
the room goes a long way.....

On Sat, 3 Apr 1999, James Goldman
wrote:

> Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 14:18:18 -0700
> From: James Goldman <rocke...@DIESPAMMYBASTARDS.hotmail.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.martial-arts.karate.shotokan
> Subject: Re: What exactly does "usu" mean? ^v^


>
> PC Jensen wrote:
> > Beats me. In fact, in our dojo, we have almost stopped saying it
> > lately. Even the seniors find it increasingly silly to grunt something
> > they either don't understand or don't mean.
>

> Great. And in two weeks, a certain 8th Dan master is flying up from

> Colorado (his name escapes me for the moment) to do a grading. Now I'm


> going to feel a right berk saying "ossu" in front of him.
>

> Incidentally, if it's common practice in the dojo to say it, should I go

> right ahead as before, or should I be all pedantic and say "wakarimasu"


> when Sensei teaches something, and "atari" when I mean to say that

> kumite should begin? What about the blackbelts saying dojo kun in
> Japanese? This is a serious question, because I'm equally averse to the


> idea of appearing to try and teach something to people who are clearly
> much better than me. On the other hand, if they've been doing it so
> long, how come they don't know?
>

> > That may well have to do with the kind of clarity you are seeking. :-)
>
> This has always been a problem for me. The universe ought to be easily
> understood by someone of my awesome intellectual powers. ;) j/k
>

> James
>
>
>


Roberto A. Alvelais

unread,
Apr 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/5/99
to
On Sun, 4 Apr 1999 18:27:37 -0700, "ANNE L TAYLOR"
<ATI...@prodigy.net> wrote:

>My dojo has been around for thirty

>years and many of the sempai have been training much longer than I. I would
>never dream of defying well-established traditions.


Tell me,
was it "tradition" not to have women in the dojo for some of that 30
years?

Women didn't grade to black belt for a large part of those 30 years at
that dojo, I'll wager. Does that qualify as a tradition.

This osu stuff is silly. If an instructor, any instructor, gets
upset with someone responding to them in a polite manner but in
English , the instructor has a terrible problem and you should leave
immediately.

Rob

PC Jensen

unread,
Apr 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/5/99
to
On Mon, 05 Apr 1999 12:37:19 -0600, James Goldman
<rocke...@DIESPAMMYBASTARDS.hotmail.com> wrote:

>PC Jensen wrote:
>> So back to the quote you started with: If student James can't ask a
>> question in English or if teacher James can't give his English-
>> speaking students explanation or information in that language, James
>> is a fool paying good money for his right to be a fool.

>> As you see, terminology in itself covers only a small and trivial
>> subset of the communication that is needed in a dojo. A vocabulary of
>> some 3-400 phrases can be learned over a couple of years by even the
>> sub-average Joe/Joan - no matter how exotic and foreign the phrases
>> are. Terminologies are not languages.

>I agree.

OK.

>We're not required to speak Japanese in the dojo. We do use the Japanese
>terms for various techniques, but that just makes sense to me. Why
>invent an English word when you already have a perfectly good one?

This is where I get off the train. This debate has been going on and
off so long now it has started to *really* bore me. The debate is very
energetic each time it pops up, but so far, all the energy has been
converted to heat. None of it has gone into compiling an extensive
list of English terms to replace the Japanese. Until that happens, the
debate remains academic in my view.

>> Bearers of tradition rarely think, reason or argue about it - they
>> have adapted it because someone told them to, period.

><WARNING: Anecdotal stuff ahead>

<snip anecdote>

You got it. Similar examples all over the world, in all matters big
and small.

>> If you would never dream of defying well-established traditions, what
>> could you possibly have to tell the rebels and misfits who built up
>> this forum?

>Well, I'm not afraid to defy tradition, by any means. But that's in
>areas where I have experience and the respect of others. By starting
>this thread I only meant to get some info (always my downfall - what was
>that about a cat and curiosity?).

What downfall? So far, you are in good shape, aren't you?

>I'm far too green at this stage to do anything but what I'm told.

Well, I can understand that, and I think rushing out to make major
changes/waves without knowing what one does is just as stupid as
blindly following tradition. Anyway, in the meantime (as your color
changes <g>) you can have fun asking "Why?". You have a right to know
the reason for the things you are required to do. The responses you
get will give you a fair idea of your instructors' competency. If
asking sincere and polite questions turns out be a socially suicidal
project, leave the org and go train somewhere else.

>And yes, that's humility, I guess. Either
>that or an unwillingness to look like a prat ;)

Go easy on the H-word, James. It rarely ever applies where people
think it does. :-)

Rose Humphrey

unread,
Apr 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/5/99
to
On 04 Apr 99 13:21:08 Andy Upton inserted his pedal extremity in his
buccal orifice in no uncertain manner:

>
> I am a 4th Dan Instructor of Shotokan Karate in England,

We don't want to know. You've been told that. If you're really a 4th
dan, how come we have to say things twice?

> and I was told that
> " oss " is a bastardised version of the word " Bushi " ( warrior) ,

And I presume you also believe the one about the haggis being a small
wild animal with the legs on one side longer than the other?

> which is how two martial artists would address each other when
passing
> in the street.

How do you recognise another martial artist in the street? Tattooed on
the back of the neck, is it?

--
Rose

Rose Humphrey

unread,
Apr 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/5/99
to
On 05 Apr 99 15:42:37 PC Jensen revealed:

>
> If you would never dream of defying well-established traditions,
what
> could you possibly have to tell the rebels and misfits who built up
> this forum? AMAKS was and is the only international public forum
for
> questioning and criticizing "well-established traditions" within
> Shotokan. If you came to AMAKS to muse about the wonders of
tradition
> and to expose your gullibility (which you probably like to call
> "loyality" or "humility" yourself) you have made a bad choice.

Someone carve this in letters of fire on purest Carrera marble and
hang it up over the entrance to this newsgroup.

--
Rose

Exalted Whosis of the Grammar and Syntax Police
Feeler of Collars to the Ungrammatical

Joel Young

unread,
Apr 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/5/99
to
In article <3709157f...@nntp.best.com>,

r...@jko.com (Roberto A. Alvelais) writes:
> On Sun, 4 Apr 1999 18:27:37 -0700, "ANNE L TAYLOR"
>>My dojo has been around for thirty years
>>never dream of defying well-established traditions.
>
> Tell me,
> was it "tradition" not to have women in the dojo for some of that 30
> years?

I bet the women in Anne's dojo have to sit in seizan with
their knees together...

Joel Young
jyo...@erols.com

George Winter

unread,
Apr 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/5/99
to

Isn't it seiza or zazen? Or are you flouting tradition :-)

ANNE L TAYLOR

unread,
Apr 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/5/99
to
PC Jensen wrote: <<Make it clear who you are quoting. Why do your readers

have to page around to find out?>>
Because I'm still new at this. Y'all seem to have the same convention for
repeating the date, time, author, and e-mail addy of the person to whom you
are specifically responding. Is there a tool on Outlook Express for this?
Or do I have to actually type it out every time (yikes)? I'll try to
remember to do it, in any event.

<<You didn't read and you didn't think. >>
Saying it doesn't make it true, but don't let that stop you from trying.

<<Like so many others, you confuse the terminology question with the
language that is spoken in the dojo.>>
Well, no I don't, but perhaps your post wasn't clear. Re: speaking Japanese
as the basic LANGUAGE in a dojo in an English-speaking country -- are there
really places where this is done? If that's your topic it would be hard to
disagree with you. Still, I wouldn't burst in and shout "Speak English!" I
would just find another dojo. If there aren't places where this is done,
why are you discussing it?
Re: terminology -- this is what I thought your subject was, and I find it
intriguing (although not earth-shattering as some folks seem to view it.)
Yes, I favor using Japanese terminology. Heck, I even kiai in Japanese.
<G>

<<Whether terminology should be "Japanese" or "English" has caused a number
of heated debates in AMAKS. I suggest you consult the archive.>>
If I wanted to read a series of old posts to which it is no longer possible
to respond, I wouldn't be HERE now, would I? I'm more interested in
discussion than in reading what was already discussed last year. Thought
that's what this NG was about.

<<I will trash any tradition I find stupid or harmful. >>
I suppose I would agree with that. But what I'm really asking is why is it
"stupid or harmful" to use Japanese terminology in the study of karate in a
dojo? (Or do you study "open-handed combat" in a "studio"?)

<<You obviously have very little idea of what AMAKS is.>>
The reason I said that about AMAKS is based on what I've observed. People
seem VERY touchy about the FAQ and following the rules. I'm not criticizing
it at all, just making a point. If you're suggesting that folks here
tolerate violations of the FAQ then you're right -- I have misjudged the
place.

<<If you would never dream of defying well-established traditions, what
could you possibly have to tell the rebels and misfits who built up
this forum?>>
I didn't come here to TELL you folks anything; trust me on this. I came
mostly for information and somewhat to raise a little friendly verbal ruckus
(within the confines of the FAQ as best I understand it). It's what I live
for. <G>

<<AMAKS was and is the only international public forum for
questioning and criticizing "well-established traditions" within
Shotokan. >>
Be that as it may, surely you don't insist that everyone who posts agree
with you before posting. If so, I must have received an outdated FAQ
because that requirement isn't in there. Nah, that would be too boring.
Who are you going to flame if everyone agrees with you?

ANNE L TAYLOR

unread,
Apr 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/5/99
to
Roberto Alvelais wrote: <<Tell me, was it "tradition" not to have women in

the dojo for some of that 30 years?>>
I don't believe so. One of our black belts, a woman in her sixties, helped
to start the dojo. And, sensei does not reveal any bias toward women.
Of course, excluding women wouldn't be a "tradition;" it would be a mindless
bias. Semantic? Probably -- and if that's your point, it's a good one.
While there is a place for tradition, I do not blindly follow tradition
wherever it may rear its sometimes-ugly head. I was only discussing one
tradition.
Even in a dojo that excluded women, though, I wouldn't bust in and demand a
black belt. I would find another dojo.

<<If an instructor, any instructor, gets
upset with someone responding to them in a polite manner but in
English , the instructor has a terrible problem and you should leave
immediately. >>
I don't know if my instructor would get upset or not. I know that I would
feel silly, just as if I had walked into my neighbor's home and started
rearranging the pictures on the wall.


Simon Slavin

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Apr 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/6/99
to
In article <3706859A...@DIESPAMMYBASTARDS.hotmail.com>,
James Goldman <rocke...@DIESPAMMYBASTARDS.hotmail.com> wrote:

> PC Jensen wrote:
> > Beats me. In fact, in our dojo, we have almost stopped saying it
> > lately. Even the seniors find it increasingly silly to grunt something
> > they either don't understand or don't mean.
>

> Incidentally, if it's common practice in the dojo to say it, should I go
> right ahead as before, or should I be all pedantic and say "wakarimasu"
> when Sensei teaches something, and "atari" when I mean to say that
> kumite should begin? What about the blackbelts saying dojo kun in
> Japanese? This is a serious question, because I'm equally averse to the
> idea of appearing to try and teach something to people who are clearly
> much better than me. On the other hand, if they've been doing it so
> long, how come they don't know?

I'm having a big problem with this in my classes (I learn, not
teach). When I started learning Karate we counted in Japanese
and said 'oos' a lot. Now the counting happens in English and
my current teachers want 'oos' said at different times. This
I can cope with except for one thing: kumite.

Something that got taught in my first class was that in kumite
the attacker announces the attack and makes sure that the
defender is ready. We did this by having the defender say
'oos' to acknowledge 'jodan' or whatever. For some reason
this sunk into my subconscious and I loved it dearly. So much
so that I still say it a decade later before I remember that
my current teacher doesn't like it. It's a major triumph when
I catch myself in time and stay silent.

I still think it's a good idea -- make sure your opponent did
hear your attack announcement.

Simon.
--
No junk email please. | What a story !
<http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk> | I can't wait to embellish it.
| -- Elaine from _Ally McBeal_

ptane...@my-dejanews.com

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Apr 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/6/99
to
In article <3705A25A...@DIESPAMMYBASTARDS.hotmail.com>,
James Goldman <rocke...@DIESPAMMYBASTARDS.hotmail.com> wrote:
> So what, exactly, does "usu" mean? ...

"Javohl, Herr Kapitan!"

At least, that's the way it always felt to me.

---
Paul T.

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

Joel Young

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Apr 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/6/99
to
In article <37093cc7....@news.giganews.com>,

gwi...@q-sys.com (George Winter) writes:
> On 5 Apr 1999 22:28:56 GMT, jdy...@m486.young (Joel Young) wrote:
>
>>In article <3709157f...@nntp.best.com>,
>> r...@jko.com (Roberto A. Alvelais) writes:
>>> On Sun, 4 Apr 1999 18:27:37 -0700, "ANNE L TAYLOR"
>>>>My dojo has been around for thirty years
>>>>never dream of defying well-established traditions.

>>>
>>> Tell me,
>>> was it "tradition" not to have women in the dojo for some of that 30
>>> years?
>>
>>I bet the women in Anne's dojo have to sit in seizan with
>>their knees together...
>
> Isn't it seiza or zazen? Or are you flouting tradition :-)

Damn! Musta been that durned drawl messin up mah dem dare
spellun. Do you think if I go back and edit the quote,
any one will notice?

Isn't any fun to go harassin' someone and then
screwin' up. Did ja know, in the Air Force, they teach
you to write like you talk?

Joel
jyo...@erols.com

Joel Young

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Apr 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/6/99
to
In article <B32EFF429...@0.0.0.0>,

slavins.at.hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) writes:
> I still think it's a good idea -- make sure your opponent did
> hear your attack announcement.

We used to say "oos" also after an attack was announced.
Now the club I am with just repeats the name of the attack.
Took a bit of getting used, but now I like it better--gives
more positive feedback that the attacker said what they
thought they said and that the defender heard what the
attacker said.

Joel
jyo...@erols.com

ven...@webtv.net

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Apr 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/6/99
to
Joel said:"Did ja know, in the Air Frce, they teach you to write like
you talk?"

Well, Krap, Joel, Ah yooze too bee in Thair Force m'self, y'no!:-)

Taken me years to get over it.:-)

John "Wild Blue Yonder" Vengel


ven...@webtv.net

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Apr 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/6/99
to
Anne Taylor sez:

Lotta stuff about our sacred archives.

^V^ ^V^^V^^V^^V^^V^^V^^V^V^^V^^V^

You should go there and look, if you want to find fuel it's all there.

But no one can make you.

If you wanna start arguments here, the archves are so you can find out
if it's old news.And after all, there is a search vengel I mean search
engine there.

BTW, you say you kiai in Japanese.Tell me ou don't shout KIAI! No one in
Japan does.I've seen dojo where they do in America, and I never laughed
so hard in my life.

So, how does one kiai in Nihongo?

Regards, Genjumin


Andrew Knowles

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Apr 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/6/99
to
Rose asked:

>And I presume you also believe the one about the haggis being a small
>wild animal with the legs on one side longer than the other?

I thought it had three legs and a funny checked pattern, and could be
easily be converted to bagpipes by drilling out the legs and inserting
a hollow tube into either end.


Andrew

Andrew Knowles

unread,
Apr 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/6/99
to
ANNE L TAYLOR wrote:

>PC Jensen wrote:
>>Make it clear who you are quoting. Why do your readers
>>have to page around to find out?

>Because I'm still new at this.

Not any more.

>Y'all seem to have the same convention for
>repeating the date, time, author, and e-mail addy of the person to
whom you
>are specifically responding. Is there a tool on Outlook Express for
this?

Not that I have been able to find. It is not one of the better
newsreaders :(

>>Whether terminology should be "Japanese" or "English" has caused a
number
>>of heated debates in AMAKS. I suggest you consult the archive.>>


>If I wanted to read a series of old posts to which it is no longer
possible
>to respond, I wouldn't be HERE now, would I? I'm more interested in
>discussion than in reading what was already discussed last year.
>Thought that's what this NG was about.

"No", he said, bravely resisting the desire to flame. This newsgroup
is, at present, a forum where anything pertaining to Shotokan can be
discussed without being hampered by the usual heirarchical and
doctrinal constraints.

But, since we are all here of our own free will, we will respond only
if we wish to. Continually rehashing the same tired arguments becomes
quickly tedious, so the liklihood of people responding to old
discussion topics diminishes rapidly.

We now have an excellent archive, maintained by our Mr Winter. You
can now find the current thinking of the group on a whole host of
subjects. This, in itself, is a valuable resource, as there are many
things covered which do not get touched on in the standard syllabus,
and there are many well argued views that contradict accepted dogma.

The archive also allows you determine which subjects have been flogged
to death. If you wish to resurrect one of these subjects, feel free -
you only have to start a new thread. But if the topic *has* been
thrashed, don't expect a big response.


>>You obviously have very little idea of what AMAKS is.
>The reason I said that about AMAKS is based on what I've observed.
People
>seem VERY touchy about the FAQ and following the rules. I'm not
criticizing
>it at all, just making a point. If you're suggesting that folks here
>tolerate violations of the FAQ then you're right -- I have misjudged
the
>place.

The FAQ contains only three rules:
1. All posted articles must relate to Shotokan karate or continue
threads that relate to Shotokan karate.
2. No advertisements or announcements.
3. Do not cross-post [x-post] anything to AMAKS and another newsgroup.

We *are* very touchy about following these three rules. It keeps our
newsgroup a nice, uncluttered place to be.

Provided you stay within the confines of these three rules, you can do
whatever you like BUT you must be prepared to accept the consequences.

>>If you would never dream of defying well-established traditions,
what
>>could you possibly have to tell the rebels and misfits who built up
>>this forum?
>I didn't come here to TELL you folks anything; trust me on this.
>I came mostly for information

But you are not prepared to go look for it.

>and somewhat to raise a little friendly verbal ruckus
>(within the confines of the FAQ as best I understand it). It's what
I live
>for. <G>

Do you really? I wonder...

>>AMAKS was and is the only international public forum for
>>questioning and criticizing "well-established traditions" within
>>Shotokan.

>Be that as it may, surely you don't insist that everyone who posts
agree
>with you before posting.

No.

> If so, I must have received an outdated FAQ
>because that requirement isn't in there.

Again with the FAQ. I have never come across someone more obsessed
with the bloody thing.

>Who are you going to flame if everyone agrees with you?


Whoever we want to.

Anne, could you please set out you posts a little better. White space
is a useful commodity in aiding understanding.

Andrew


MissIllona

unread,
Apr 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/6/99
to
>Tell me ou don't shout KIAI! No one in
>Japan does.I've seen dojo where they do in America, and I never laughed so
hard in my life.>

We have a school here in town that does and I almost peed my pants .... I was
laughing so hard!

So stupid.

Illona

Eoin Clarke

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Apr 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/6/99
to
In article <7ebve0$1vi8$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>, "ANNE L TAYLOR"
<ATI...@prodigy.net> wrote:


> Heck, I even kiai in Japanese.

Please explain how you "kiai in Japanese". How do you know if you're doing
it correctly? And from a personal interest, why in the world do you do it?

Eoin

Eoin Clarke eo...@gol.com

Paul Willoughby

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Apr 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/6/99
to
On Mon, 5 Apr 1999 20:26:15 -0700, "ANNE L TAYLOR"
<ATI...@prodigy.net> wrote:


>Because I'm still new at this. Y'all seem to have the same convention for


>repeating the date, time, author, and e-mail addy of the person to whom you
>are specifically responding. Is there a tool on Outlook Express for this?

>Or do I have to actually type it out every time (yikes)?

You should try downloading Forte's FreeAgent software. It explains
about it in the FAQ. It took me some prodding before I tried it out
and I have been much happier reading the Newsgroup ever since.

Now, you still haven't answered my question. Why would you never
think of defying tradition??

Paul


Paul Willoughby

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Apr 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/6/99
to
On Tue, 06 Apr 1999 00:01:06 +0100,
slavins.at.hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) wrote:


>
>Something that got taught in my first class was that in kumite
>the attacker announces the attack and makes sure that the
>defender is ready. We did this by having the defender say
>'oos' to acknowledge 'jodan' or whatever. For some reason
>this sunk into my subconscious and I loved it dearly. So much
>so that I still say it a decade later before I remember that
>my current teacher doesn't like it. It's a major triumph when
>I catch myself in time and stay silent.
>

>I still think it's a good idea -- make sure your opponent did
>hear your attack announcement.

Why not use "hai"? However, always be ready once the attack is
announced.

Paul

PC Jensen

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Apr 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/6/99
to
On Tue, 06 Apr 1999 00:01:06 +0100,
slavins.at.hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) wrote:

>I'm having a big problem with this in my classes (I learn, not
>teach). When I started learning Karate we counted in Japanese
>and said 'oos' a lot. Now the counting happens in English and
>my current teachers want 'oos' said at different times.

Like, when?

>the attacker announces the attack and makes sure that the
>defender is ready. We did this by having the defender say

>'oos' to acknowledge 'jodan' or whatever. <... snip ...>

>my current teacher doesn't like it.

>I still think it's a good idea -- make sure your opponent did
>hear your attack announcement.

I'll admit it does a certain something for peace in the dojo, but can
you clarify a little: Don't your teachers think it's a good idea or do
they want you to say something else? Like, what?

ATIFFEN

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Apr 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/6/99
to
Response to Andrew:

<< This newsgroup is, at present, a forum where anything pertaining to
Shotokan can be discussed>>

Yes, that's what I thought it was. I would prefer not to have to consult
the archives every time I venture a thought for discussion on a topic.
However, if the topic has been beat to death and nobody answers me, I'm
prepared to accept that as the consequence. I will also happily check
the archive for information (as opposed to discussion). So, yes, I am
repared to go look for information.

<<Again with the FAQ. I have never come across someone more obsessed
with the bloody thing.>>

LOL. I had the same reaction when I encountered this place. It is
invoked in a good third of the responses, seems like. There's even
someone here -- maybe it is you? -- who responds to entire notes by
simply typing "FAQ" or maybe it's "FAQ'd."

Thanks for the suggestion on white space.

ATIFFEN

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Apr 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/6/99
to
To Genjumin,
My remark about kiaing in Japanese was intended as humor. Observe the
<G>. I thought it was funny precisely because you can't kiai (or grunt,
or laugh, or groan) "in Japanese."
I have heard a few white belts actually say "kiai," but not entire dojos.
We have one nidan who says "ossu" for his kiai, which I think is
strange. I struggled for a while trying to develop a kiai that didn't
sound stupid to me. I wonder if other people have had the same
challenge.

ATIFFEN

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Apr 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/6/99
to
To Eoin:
See my note to Genjumin. It was a JOKE. <G>

ATIFFEN

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Apr 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/6/99
to
Hi, Paul, thanks for the suggestion about the newsreader program -- I'll
try it tonight when I'm not on the dinosaur I'm on now.
I didn't mean to ignore your question but thought my other notes had
answered it. To me, wandering into someone else's place and trying to
change the traditions is like going into their home and rearranging the
pictures on the wall. I'm sure there are situations where I would defy
what someone else thinks is a "tradition" if it is interfering with my
rights. But I wasn't addressing those situations. I spoke more broadly,
I suppose, than the situation warranted.

George Winter

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Apr 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/6/99
to
On Tue, 06 Apr 1999 09:59:32 -0700, ATIFFEN <ATI...@Prodigy.Net>
wrote:

There were actually a few suggested kiai - as many of the sounds we
use are words in japanese. I of course have forgotten them.

Shawn Jefferson

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Apr 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/6/99
to
On Sat, 03 Apr 1999 14:18:18 -0700, James Goldman
<rocke...@DIESPAMMYBASTARDS.hotmail.com> wrote:

>Great. And in two weeks, a certain 8th Dan master is flying up from
>Colorado (his name escapes me for the moment) to do a grading. Now I'm
>going to feel a right berk saying "ossu" in front of him.


>
>Incidentally, if it's common practice in the dojo to say it, should I go
>right ahead as before, or should I be all pedantic and say "wakarimasu"
>when Sensei teaches something, and "atari" when I mean to say that
>kumite should begin? What about the blackbelts saying dojo kun in
>Japanese? This is a serious question, because I'm equally averse to the
>idea of appearing to try and teach something to people who are clearly
>much better than me. On the other hand, if they've been doing it so
>long, how come they don't know?

You could do what I've done. Stop saying it. I never say osu anymore
and I don't recite the dojokun after the class (when I'm at a club
that does this).

See if anybody says anything. In my case they don't... Your mileage
may vary.

Or you could walk up to your instructor and ask him why he says it.
Then when he tells you 'because my instructor said it' or 'they did it
that way at my club.' Point him in the direction of someone who knows
what it means or better yet someone who speaks Japanese but doesn't
practice karate. Then, after he tells you that you don't know what
you're talking about because you haven't been training for 25 years
than you can go back to choice number one.

---
Shawn Jefferson
sjeffers(at)home(dot)com

P. Bromaghin

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Apr 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/6/99
to
ATIFFEN wrote

> There's even
> someone here -- maybe it is you? -- who responds to entire notes by
> simply typing "FAQ" or maybe it's "FAQ'd."

He does that so everybody else knows they don't need to send the newbie a
FAQ.

> Thanks for the suggestion on white space.

Thank you for taking his suggestion. Your posts are much easier to read.
You may even find that people are nicer to you because of it. But then
again, you might not.

PC Jensen

unread,
Apr 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/6/99
to
On Mon, 5 Apr 1999 20:26:15 -0700, "ANNE L TAYLOR"
<ATI...@prodigy.net> wrote:

>PC Jensen wrote: <<Make it clear who you are quoting. Why do your readers
>have to page around to find out?>>

>Because I'm still new at this. Y'all seem to have the same convention for


>repeating the date, time, author, and e-mail addy of the person to whom you
>are specifically responding. Is there a tool on Outlook Express for this?

I have no idea whether you have this option with Outlook. But go to
http://www.forteinc.com/agent/freagent.htm and download Forté Agent.
It installs like a breeze and it's very user-friendly. You don't have
to be any sort of computer nerd to have it up and running in less than
thirty minutes.The FAQ recommends Agent for good reasons.

><<Whether terminology should be "Japanese" or "English" has caused a number
>of heated debates in AMAKS. I suggest you consult the archive.>>

>If I wanted to read a series of old posts to which it is no longer possible
>to respond, I wouldn't be HERE now, would I? I'm more interested in
>discussion than in reading what was already discussed last year. Thought
>that's what this NG was about.

This forum has a history and a substantial part of it is recorded in
the archive. The rest of it is recorded in the minds of the regulars,
some of which have been around for years. Don't expect us to reset
history and start from scratch, just because you have finally arrived.

You do everybody, including yourself, a favour by checking the archive
before you raise a question. If that question has been sufficiently
answered already, why waste each other's time?

A lot of effort has been put into preserving AMAKS discussions and
whatever conclusions or results they have arrived at. Think about it.
Most NGs are day-to-day fragments accumulating forever without
transforming into knowledge. Take a tour of www.amaks.com and the
resources and links you find there. That will give you an idea of what
this NG is about. It's truly something else.

And who says you can't respond to an old post? You will find lots of
loose ends in any discussion. Nothing prevents you from posting
something that runs like this: "In the archive, I saw that X raised a
question about Y without really getting any response. Does anyone have
any information or point of view on that question today?" A little
research, a little creativity and you might come up with an
interesting contribution.

><<You obviously have very little idea of what AMAKS is.>>

>The reason I said that about AMAKS is based on what I've observed. People
>seem VERY touchy about the FAQ and following the rules. I'm not criticizing
>it at all, just making a point. If you're suggesting that folks here
>tolerate violations of the FAQ then you're right -- I have misjudged the
>place.

Look. Most of us have been newbies. Quite a few of us have had
reactions similar to yours - "who are these jerks telling *me* what to
do?". Best advice is to let it go, to turn your current perspective
180 degrees and realize how much the place has to offer at the
reasonable expense that you follow a few no-nonsense rules. If you can
do that, we can get over this real fast. If you can't, your stay will
be short and joyless.

><<If you would never dream of defying well-established traditions, what
>could you possibly have to tell the rebels and misfits who built up
>this forum?>>

>I didn't come here to TELL you folks anything; trust me on this. I came

>mostly for information and somewhat to raise a little friendly verbal ruckus


>(within the confines of the FAQ as best I understand it). It's what I live
>for. <G>

Hold on to that part of yourself.

><<AMAKS was and is the only international public forum for
>questioning and criticizing "well-established traditions" within
>Shotokan. >>

>Be that as it may, surely you don't insist that everyone who posts agree

>with you before posting. If so, I must have received an outdated FAQ
>because that requirement isn't in there. Nah, that would be too boring.

Ah, polemic claws, good, wee bit dull, though, 'cause: if you check
the archive (here we go again) you will *learn* that no-one would
dream of insisting anything like that. It's very fair to say that
informed disagreement is considered a virtue in here - whereas
disagreeing without arguments and logic is a deadly sin. This is one
of the few points where we have an approximate 99.99% agreement.

>Who are you going to flame if everyone agrees with you?

Let's not go into the concept of flaming right now. Just promise me to
contemplate the possible merits of flaming.

ven...@webtv.net

unread,
Apr 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/6/99
to
Anne-
In Okinawan and Chinese arts, and some Japanese ars as well, there are
actually Kiais which are certain sounds.

I asked because I wondered if you knew them.:-)


ANNE L TAYLOR

unread,
Apr 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/6/99
to
ven...@webtv.net wrote:

<<In Okinawan and Chinese arts, and some Japanese ars as well, there are
actually Kiais which are certain sounds.>>

No, until you and George pointed that out I didn't know that. That is
interesting. I always wished someone would explain how one "chooses" the
sound they make in a kiai. I assumed it was a personal decision. Maybe I
should check the archives to see if there is more information on this. But
it's too late for me to change my kiai, I guess.

Anne


ANNE L TAYLOR

unread,
Apr 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/6/99
to
PC Jensen wrote:

<<Don't expect us to reset history and start from scratch, just because you
have finally arrived.>>

LOL! I don't. As I said, if I start a well-worn topic and everyone ignores
me I will understand that that might be the risk of not checking the
archive.

The point I tried to make was that I will happily check the archive for
information. It sounds like a great resourcea and one that folks have spent
a lot of time on. But if I want to stimulate discussion, well, an archive
is a poor substitute. But, I guess you're right about bringing a discussion
back to the group if I find it interesting. Good idea.

<<Best advice is to let it go, to turn your current perspective
180 degrees and realize how much the place has to offer at the
reasonable expense that you follow a few no-nonsense rules. If you can do
that, we can get over this real fast. >>

You really misunderstood me about the FAQ, even though I tried very hard to
make my point clearly. I have no problem whatsoever with the rules. I have
read them carefully and I expect to do my best to follow them whenever I
can. I respect rules. I didn't come in here to rearrange your pictures on
the wall. I consider rules a very small price indeed to pay to visit a
well-organized NG. What I TRIED to communicate was that, just as you
(rightly) expect folks to follow your FAQ, so do dojos, by and large
(rightly) expect folks to follow their traditions.

<<This is one of the few points where we have an approximate 99.99%
agreement. >>

Yikes. Where do we go from here? <G>

<<Just promise me to contemplate the possible merits of flaming.>>

You misunderstood again, I think, and this one is probably my fault. I have
been known to relish a good flame war and I've been in some doozies. A
little moderation, though, may be in order. Or, maybe not. <G>

Anne

ANNE L TAYLOR

unread,
Apr 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/6/99
to
DevonErik wrote:

<<But, I, for one, will not be paying much attention.>>

ROTFL. I'm crushed.

Anne

DevonErik

unread,
Apr 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/7/99
to
"ANNE L TAYLOR" <ATI...@prodigy.net> wrote:

>I want to make sure I understand you. Are you suggesting that, even if it
>is a longstanding tradition in a dojo in (for example) America to use
>Japanese terminology, some upstart

Speaking!

>should just go in and try to change that
>and INSIST that the participants SPEAK ENGLISH??

Yep.

> What if the dojo has a FAQ
>that clearly states that Japanese terminology is favored? <G>

Find a new dojo.

>Seriously,
>if this is your position I am a little surprised at the suggestion that
>someone else's tradition be trashed. I don't believe you would stand for
>the same revisionism here at AMAKS. My dojo has been around for thirty
>years and many of the sempai have been training much longer than I. I would
>never dream of defying well-established traditions.

That's your problem, ain't it?

I would.

Devon Erik Oslund
"There are two types of religious belief; the notion that anything involving
the body from the neck to the knees is a sin, and the same notion applied to
the neck up. The first is merely annoying, the second scares the hell out of
me."

DevonErik

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Apr 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/7/99
to
"ANNE L TAYLOR" <ATI...@prodigy.net> wrote:

>If I wanted to read a series of old posts to which it is no longer possible
>to respond, I wouldn't be HERE now, would I?

In other words, you want to talk, not listen.

Great. Go ahead and reinvent the wheel. It's your nickel.

But, I, for one, will not be paying much attention.

Devon Erik Oslund

Matt Witherspoon

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Apr 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/7/99
to

ANNE L TAYLOR wrote in message
<7eeep5$78a$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>...


I was reading Mr. Redmond's FAQ and passed through the section that
said that a beginner should choose 'ah', 'eh', or 'oh', just to be
safe. My own kiai sounds like a very short, barking "HoH!", rather
Klingonaase. My instructor's kiai sounds like an "OY!" with a lot of
back-of-the-throat in it. One of my fellow students doesn't cut his
off, and usually sounds like he's retching - "HAAAAaaaaakkkk".

Matt W.

Anne Taylor

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Apr 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM4/7/99
to
Response to Matt Witherspoon re kiai:

There is one student in our class who also growls his kiai, ending
some full seconds after everyone else's kiai has finished ringing
throughout the room. He also kiai's all by himself a lot. It's sort
of comical.

This is my first post with Free Agent. It's a great program, but
still a few bugs to work out, so I apologize if there is anything
werid about the formatting here.