The Secret Art of Kumite ^v^
Steven K. Shapiro
Howdy All!
A friend was recently showing me a videotape he had of a fellow demonstrating
Shotokan kumite techniques.
One thing that I noticed was that the ready position for sparring was
quite a bit different from the way my Sensei is teaching it.
I am wondering if my Sensei is different or the fellow on the tape is
different from the official Shotokan kumite ready position.
Could someone please describe the stance and positioning of the arm and hands?
Thanks.
Regards,
Steve.
// Steven K. Shapiro @ SKS Computer Consulting, Inc.
// All Opinions May Or May Not Be My Own
// eMail > sks...@universe.digex.net
// WWW HomePage > http://www.universe.digex.net/~skscci/
jpeckman
Steve,
According to Shihan Okazaki in his book "The Textbook of Modern Karate",
there are eight ready, or sparring stances. The one I use is a modified
zen-kutsu dachi, where the stance is shortened and there is a more even
distribution of weight over both legs. The hands mildly resemble the old
western style of boxing's hand position (as if one was shooting a rifle),
except that the hands are much closer to the body.
-Eric
e....@rocketmail.com
Steven K. Shapiro wrote in message <69tfm1$d...@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>...
Kevin Hawley
Michael Lamertz wrote:
>
> On Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:54:50 GMT,
> skscci.*removethis*@universe.digex.net (Steven K. Shapiro) wrote:
>
> >Howdy All!
> >
> >A friend was recently showing me a videotape he had of a fellow demonstrating
> >Shotokan kumite techniques.
> >
> >One thing that I noticed was that the ready position for sparring was
> >quite a bit different from the way my Sensei is teaching it.
> >
> >I am wondering if my Sensei is different or the fellow on the tape is
> >different from the official Shotokan kumite ready position.
> >
> >Could someone please describe the stance and positioning of the arm and hands?
>
>
> A. How you do it in your club
> B. What the video displayed
> C. Who the guy on the video was
What difference does it make who it is
on the tape?
> From my rather limited experiences - not in training, but seeing
> different instructors - I'd say there's no 'standard'
> kumite-stance-rule.
That's my experience as well. For students
who are just beginning jiyu kumite, I tell them
to point (line described from elbow to fist)
their lead hand at "jodan" and their rear hand
at "chudan" on their opponent's body. The fists
for both hands should remain centered, which I
describe as lying on the plane between your spine
and your opponent's spine. The hands should be
held at a comfortable distance forward, not too
extended and not held tight to the body. The lead
hand is held no higher than the shoulder, and the
rear hand is held no lower than the hips/belt.
Except for all my one-armed students, the rear
hand should be far enough forward to perform
about 30-50% of the draw arm motion should
one need to block or punch with the lead arm.
As students become more skilled in kumite, they
can adjust their guard position to match
whatever strategy and tactics they wish to use.
Subtly presenting the appearance of an opening
can be used to manipulate some opponents, etc.
As you get better at controlling distance and
evaluating your opponents (in terms of what
they *can* do at any given moment), you will
come to rely less on a fixed guard position to
protect yourself.
Hopefully, Steven, you're training with an
instructor who you can ask directly about the
difference.
- Kevin.
Michael Lamertz
>Howdy All!
>
>A friend was recently showing me a videotape he had of a fellow demonstrating
>Shotokan kumite techniques.
>
>One thing that I noticed was that the ready position for sparring was
>quite a bit different from the way my Sensei is teaching it.
>
>I am wondering if my Sensei is different or the fellow on the tape is
>different from the official Shotokan kumite ready position.
>
>Could someone please describe the stance and positioning of the arm and hands?
Hmm, it would have helped to know
A. How you do it in your club
B. What the video displayed
C. Who the guy on the video was
From my rather limited experiences - not in training, but seeing
different instructors - I'd say there's no 'standard'
kumite-stance-rule.
Most people I train with, prefere a higher stance, either well
centered, or a bit on the back-leg, but always both knees bent.
The leading hand is, sideways, somewhere between the shoulder, and the
center - with a bit bias to the center. It's height is about shoulder
level, the ellbow protects the lower ribs.
The lower arm of the back hand is aligned with the rib-cage at an
angle of about 45 degrees - making the fist reside one hand beside the
solar plexus. It points a bit upwards.
Both fists have their fingers pointed inwards, so there's always the
twist at the end of a punch.
Sometimes hands are open. In that case, usually the palms (correct
word here?) show towards the opponent - not flat, but about 45 degees.
That's how we do it at our place. I've seen - although only on one
occasion - it different on a seminar with Hideo Ochi, that I attended
in October.
His back fist is about the same as in my club, but his leading fist is
more outside - at shoulder width - and held much higher, at ear's
height.
It looked more like a stillshot during a hammerfist.
Mike
Elmar Schmeisser
In message <34cbb73e....@news.mindspring.com> -
twenty-four.fi...@mindspring.com writes:
#Stand on two bathroom scales. They will each read the exact same
#weight in your front stance, I promise you.
There is a problem here - let us simplify the front stance into a beginner's
stifflegged stance and apply Procrustes selectively <g>. Visualize a weight
at the apex of a triangle (i.e. the body riding on two legs without bendable
knees). Put your scales at the bottom ends of this triangle. If the legs are
equal length, the weight is the same. Now let us apply Procrustes and shorten
only the front "leg" by 90%, leaving this little foot stuck onto the hip. Do
you still believe that both scales will read the same? I think not. This
angle dependent weight shifting is easily experienced in pushup training. If
you raise the front end up (push ups with the hands on a chair, then against a
wall = longer arms) the weight carried by the arms is less. If you raise the
feet, the weight is more.
More to the point of front stance - the movement of the body center to the 1/3
point forward shortens the front leg of the stance triangle actually very
little. I doubt that your scale is accurate enough to see the actual change
in weight distribution. The shortening is directly proportional to the bend
in the front knee vs the bend in the back knee.
Elmar Schmeisser <cha...@texas.net>
Mark Goetsch
George Weller wrote:
Peckman:
$$ According to Shihan Okazaki in his book "The Textbook of Modern
Karate",
$ yeech, when will Americans ever stop using stuff as "Shihan so and
$ so". Japanese do not do this, why should Americans?!?!
As a term it seems that it is avoided since no one knows how to use
this. Of the
group of Aikido top brass in Japan to try to explain the term about half
came up
with the the equiv. term of "Master" while the other came up with the
term "Instructor".
All of them broke the Kanji down but they had different explanations to
how the
Kanji built up each meaning.
As a rule I think it is much better to refer to someone that you never
met as a
"Shihan" rather than the more personal term of "Sensei". It just rubs me
the wrong
way to have someone termed "Sensei ....." when they are not my "Sensei"
or not teaching
the current class. Usually though I jus use the honorific of "Mr." or
"Ms." before the
name.
In the model that we use we will refer to people as Shihan only as
title. This means that
an Asst. Instructor might be refered to as Dai-Shihan and a Full
Instructor as Shihan. No
one uses these terms in speaking but they are listed in brochures.
Mark
Bradley Webb
George Weller wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Jan 1998 14:10:43 -0500, "jpeckman" <jpec...@erols.com>
> wrote:
> >Steve,
> > According to Shihan Okazaki in his book "The Textbook of Modern Karate",
>
When they get tired of trying to glorify either themselves
or the people they study under.
I do have to admit that when I send out seminar announcements
that I write "Master" in front of Nishiyama Sensei's name (at
least at the beginning of the thing) and that I do persist in
calling him Sensei. <shrug>
Brad, just another dupe.
--
Brad Webb, 972-231-4922 Nortel Info Systems, 972-684-1737
Japan Shotokan Karate Dallas/Richardson TX.
JKA Dallas http://www.dallas.net/jka/
George Weller
>Steve,
> According to Shihan Okazaki in his book "The Textbook of Modern Karate",
yeech, when will Americans ever stop using stuff as "Shihan so and
so". Japanese do not do this, why should Americans?!?!
George Weller
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George Weller
On Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:16:05 -0600, Bradley Webb <we...@nortel.com>
wrote:
>I do have to admit that when I send out seminar announcements
>that I write "Master" in front of Nishiyama Sensei's name (at
>least at the beginning of the thing) and that I do persist in
>calling him Sensei. <shrug>
There is nothing wrong with calling your instructor "sensei". There is
also nothing wrong with putting Master in front of your instructor's
name. Putting "Shihan" in front of an instructor is wrong
gramatically, and the Japanese never refer to an instructor with the
use of "shihan". I think it says it on their belt (at 6th dan and
above?) and that is about all. Rob probably knows this better than me
though.
George Weller
============================================
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Solomon Paul Sammy
In article <34cbb73e....@news.mindspring.com>,
twenty-four.fi...@mindspring.com wrote:
> I think it is funny that we maintain this position that there is an
> uneven weight distribution in any of our stances. There is only in
> the cat leg stance. The rest are 50-50.
er, back-stance? Fudo-dachi?
Paul
... We have engaged the Borg. The wedding will be Friday.
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Kevin Hawley
Mark Goetsch wrote:
>
> As a rule I think it is much better to refer to someone that you never
> met as a "Shihan" rather than the more personal term of "Sensei". It just rubs me
> the wrong way to have someone termed "Sensei ....." when they are not my "Sensei"
> "Ms." before the name.
Different instructors that I've met (who were native Japanese speakers)
have told me the correct phrase was kyoshi for an instructor, and kancho
for the lead dog in the dojo. Since I haven't gotten a definitive
answer on this from anyone yet, I too use Mr. So-and-so when speaking to
or referring to instructors other than my own. If the
soke-shihan-hanshi-meijin gets bent out of shape by that, it's as
revealing about their character as the title they prefer to be addressed
by. Actually, more so.
The great side benefit is the looks of horror among their disciples when
you fail to use the "proper" honorific. :-) Addressing somebody as
"Mr." is quite respectful in *my* native language, thank you very much.
- Kevin.
Mark Goetsch
twenty-four.fi...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> People who require titles and honorifics suck. That's my rule. Like
> it?
Like or not is not the question. Calling a person by their first name in
almost any society without some degree of familiarity is rude. It is
implying that you are both comfortable with each other when in fact you
might hate the person, not know the person or be in a situation where
you are demonstrating your position relative to another person.
Honorifics are also used to give respect. I would not for example refer
to Mr. Sugiyama by his first name since to do so would say that I am on
the same level as he is (since I am his student this won't be true).
Sometimes though we might say instead of Mr. Ingber we might use Lester.
This in a sense more based on acceptance as one with the group where all
are equals. If he were to be in a teaching situation in Physics or
Karate I would never in a social situation say "Lester" since that would
be indicating that my abilities and experiences could be put on the same
level as his (which they are not).
Mark
Paul Sammy
In-reply-to: Mark Goetsch's message of Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:21:24 -0600
> Like or not is not the question. Calling a person by their first name in
> almost any society without some degree of familiarity is rude.
I used to get quite upset about that. I still do, *especially* from
salespersons, who insert "Paul" in every crack in a sentence.
However, I think it has become much more acceptable now.
[snip]
> If he were to be in a teaching situation in Physics or
> Karate I would never in a social situation say "Lester" since that would
> be indicating that my abilities and experiences could be put on the same
> level as his (which they are not).
I agree. Except...I tend to call *my* instructor "Jim", even when on
the floor. I *do* try to supress that, whenever we are training
non-locally.
> Mark
Paul
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George Winter
On 22 Jan 1998 19:13:23 GMT, pa...@doc.memex.com (Paul Sammy) wrote:
I am reminded of an anecdote of my father.
He was talking with someone he had just met, The gentleman said "Hi my
name is Bob X, you can call me Bob." My father replied, "My name is
Roland Winter, you can call me Dr. Winter".
Heh, Germans :-)
At my school in Binghamton everyone called everyone else by their last
names. It made for a very unusual sounding conversations outside the
dojo, because as often as not, we would know each other's last names
but not the first names. So I would greet people in a bar "Hey Mr.
Jacobs, how's it going!" The combination of the formality of using
someone's last name & the informal tone of voice sounds very wierd to
outsiders.
George
_____________________________________________________________________
George Winter gwi...@q-sys.com
Qsys Ltd.
Information Systems Consulting
Kevin Hawley
Steven K. Shapiro wrote:
>
> To address a teacher as Mr. or Sensei demonstrates the respect we have for the
> position which this person has attained.
>
> Why do people feel offended when they show respect?
I think the offense in question here is "people who ask/expect/require"
honorific titles for themselves. If I choose to address people
politely, which I usually always do, it's because of their actions, not
their demands.
However, I have a real problem with people who demand that I use
language and customs other than my own, here in my country, just so they
can feel more "at home." When I travel overseas, I don't ask people to
"be more like people from my country" so that *I* don't feel homesick,
and I think it's pretty goddamn rude of anyone to ask that of me here.
If anyone in the United States thinks that they should be addressed as
kyoshi or shihan in the supermarket or the movie theater, they should be
deported.
- Kevin.
Richard Frazier
On Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:23:08 GMT, gwi...@q-sys.com (George Winter)
wrote:
>At my school in Binghamton everyone called everyone else by their last
>names. It made for a very unusual sounding conversations outside the
>dojo, because as often as not, we would know each other's last names
>but not the first names. So I would greet people in a bar "Hey Mr.
>Jacobs, how's it going!" The combination of the formality of using
>someone's last name & the informal tone of voice sounds very wierd to
>outsiders.
Now imagine that you do this with just about everyone you work with.
You rarely know their first names and that doesn't even strike you as
strange.
Now put yourself in a high visibility job where you see 1500+
different people a year who know you from the pain you've put them
through and the fact that you have very recognizable characteristics.
Most of the time you wouldn't know them from Adam except that they
know *you* and let you know it.
This is the hell that is my life.
^v^
Rick
Appointed Keeper of the One True Book of Netiquette
GrandMaster of The Secret Order of the ^v^
And Doler of Frivolous Castigations
Elmar Schmeisser
In message <34efd099...@news.mindspring.com> -
twenty-four.fi...@mindspring.comWed, 21 Jan 1998 23:53:18 -0500
writes:
#The bend in my front knee is 90*. The rear knee is 0*. The bathroom
#scale can't detect it, you say? Then it isn't significant even if it
#is happening.
I agree - it's a trig function, and you have to get the effective front leg
length down to about 1/3 of the rear leg length before you'd see a 50% shift
in weight. For most stances normally placed, the difference is minor and
probably meaningless in terms of weight. In terms of leg tensions, and the
resulting stresses the legs can absorb (directions and amount), it's a
different matter.
Elmar Schmeisser <cha...@texas.net>
George Weller
At almost all the jobs I worked at during my university days, I would
call the manager "sir". Almost always they would tell me to call them
by their first name. I think nowadays most people like being called
by their first name. University instructors are the only ones i've
met who still think it is rude...
George Weller
On Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:46:14 -0500,
twenty-four.fi...@mindspring.com wrote:
>On Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:21:24 -0600, Mark Goetsch wrote:
>
>:
>:Like or not is not the question. Calling a person by their first name in
>:almost any society without some degree of familiarity is rude.
>
>But guess what, Mark....
>
>Not in America.
>
>
>--
>* ^v^ Fearless Leader ^v^ *
>Rob Redmond <bigredatmindspring.com>
>http://bigred.home.mindspring.com/
>AMAKS FAQ http://home.att.net/~geodome/amaks/
DevonErik
Rob Redmond wrote:
>People who require titles and honorifics suck. That's my rule. Like
>it?
Hey, wait a minute. Say that, and we'd have to include "President" Clinton,
"Senator" Dole, "Speaker" Gringich, "Judge" Ito, and...
Wait.
Nevermind.
:-)
-Devo...@aol.com
Grand Poobah of the Grammar and Syntax Police.
Jon Keeling and/or Laura Liu
Elmar Schmeisser wrote:
> (First Rob's chicken wrote:)
> #The bend in my front knee is 90*. The rear knee is 0*. The bathroom
> #scale can't detect it, you say? Then it isn't significant even if it
> #is happening.
>
> I agree - it's a trig function, and you have to get the effective front leg
> length down to about 1/3 of the rear leg length before you'd see a 50% shift
> in weight. For most stances normally placed, the difference is minor and
> probably meaningless in terms of weight. In terms of leg tensions, and the
> resulting stresses the legs can absorb (directions and amount), it's a
> different matter.
>
> Elmar Schmeisser <cha...@texas.net>
I never took trig, went straight from algebra & geometry inhigh school to
calculus in college 6 years later, so I may
have missed something. But--
I think there is a major influence on the 'weighting' of the
stance in how you measure the distance between your
'weight' and your 'feet.' Although 'weight' is usually
thought of as 'the placement of the hips,' it could also
be taking into consideration such factors as momentum,
etc. (I don't care to get into that, but others may). The
measurement between the hips and the 'feet,' however,
is where I would like to continue this discussion.
When I measure my zenkutsudachi, I take the distances
from the center of the heel joints as my reference points,
since this is where I consider the support to be based
(this, also, could be debated as related to directional
momentum, etc.). Taking the center of the heels (about
2" from the back of the feet) as these reference points,
I measure my hips to be slightly over 80% of the way
towards the front. I think a common problem with many
people's measurements is that they take the distance of
the stance to be from the back heel to the front toes. I
measure all stances as the distance between the heels,
since (as Rob pointed out you like to emphasize too) we
should really be moving on the heels when practicing
proper stances.
I do not have 2 scales. I think more scientific research
needs to be done to really calculate the 'weight
distribution' in stances. I for one would be very
happy to take part in any such research (in fact,
I've sent messages out to quite a few biomechanics
researchers, trying to see if anyone was interested
in doing a joint study).
I am curious to find out where other people measure
their hip placement to be, when calculating from the
positions of the heels. I have already collected data
from about a dozen people at my present dojo and
find that the 'weight' of the stance is more than 75%
of the way towards the front for those who properly
place their front knees over their toes in zenkutsudachi.
How about other people?
-Jon
Joel Young
In article <34c92d1d...@news.gol.com>,
dcd[no-spam]@gol.com (George Weller) writes:
> At almost all the jobs I worked at during my university days, I would
> call the manager "sir". Almost always they would tell me to call them
> by their first name. I think nowadays most people like being called
> by their first name. University instructors are the only ones i've
> met who still think it is rude...
>
Enlisted members always (virtually) say Sir, Maam, Rank Lastname, or
just Rank. If they want to be a bit more informal, and the officer is
a Lieutenant, then thay might say Ell-Tee.
Officer to enlisted is usually Rank Lastname, Chief (if they are high
enough ranked), or occasionally Firstname. Many enlisted prefer to be
NOT called by their first name.
Joel Young
jyo...@erols.com