Is This Safe?
Stacy
spy on you or hack into your computer let alone see what you're buying.
Credit cards become more used, thus the numbers are more easily stolen. Is
there really a TOTALLY secure way to buy over the internet?
Caroball
>spy on you or hack into your computer let alone see what you're buying.
>Credit cards become more used, thus the numbers are more easily stolen.
Just a few thoughts.
Who in the world would hack into an individual's computer just to see what they
are buying???
As to CC number theft. When you go into a store and use your CC, how many
employees of the store them have access to your CC#, name, exp. date and is
some cases your address. Over the years most CC fraud has come from merchants
and their employees, not hackers or thieves.
Worried about using your CC online. One thing we do is keep a card or two with
a very small limit to use online. In the unlikely event the numbers is
"hacked" out the loss would be very small. >I don't think shopping online is
There is no totally secure way to buy anywhere, in person or on line, using a
credit card.
John
Scott Keenan
In the retail world, its *much* easier to get credit card numbers. A quick
trip to the dumpster will yeild trashbags full of credit card numbers, the
little receipts that our printed out on the gas pumps that people forget to
take, that empty KMart bag blowing around in the parking lot... All contain
credit card numbers, expiration dates and most contain names..
Id say 1/2 to 2/3s of online retailers do address verification upon credit
approval... where as how many retail places confirm your address? (ive been
asked like maybe 10 times in my whole life for my drivers liscense) (I even
paid 38,000 at Lenox duing a big sale of thiers... and they just rang me up
with not one goddamn verification of anything?!??!?! (i called my credit
card company prehand to advise them that Im going to be spending a large
amount)
I think the problem is the media in this case.... They never mention that
little johnny has been steallin from the dumpsters from behind the strip
mall, taking an average of 1,000 credit card numbers a week...for years....
But they will mention that a large online company was hacked into and had
3,000 numbers leaked...
just a thought to ponder.
tbc video
scott
"Stacy" <stacy...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:b5EF5.5756$6E.7...@news4.mia...
> I don't think shopping online is safe to begin with. Too many people can
> spy on you or hack into your computer let alone see what you're buying.
> Credit cards become more used, thus the numbers are more easily stolen.
Richard Ward
anywhere, from anybody. Clerks at a gas station or department store can
run your card twice, and use it to steal merchandise. Anyone you have
ever sent a check to can use it to have new checks printed up and empty
you're account. They can also draft against your account with the same
effect. If you want to pay in cash, you could be hit over the head and
robbed leaving the bank or ATM. If you eschew banks and just bury your
money in your back yard, you could also be robbed.
Life isn't safe. The only real question is whether you can manage your
risks, and keep them to an acceptable level. In general, the chance of
your credit card information being stolen when you send it over the net
through a secure server is probably less than the risk of your credit
card information being stolen when you use it at a regular store.
Just to make you totally paranoid, I saw a news story a few weeks ago
about a store that was stealing account information and passwords from
customers who used ATM cards, they had a laptop hooked up between the
device that swiped the cards and the phone line, and they had a small
camera focused on the keypad to get the account numbers. Feel more
secure now using those systems where the credit card never has to leave
your hands?
Richard Ward
Bill Funk
wrote:
>I don't think shopping online is safe to begin with. Too many people can
>spy on you or hack into your computer let alone see what you're buying.
>Credit cards become more used, thus the numbers are more easily stolen. Is
>there really a TOTALLY secure way to buy over the internet?
>
>
One of my favorite question:
When you eat out, do you ever pay by CC?
When that server (who's probably paid well below minimum wage) takes
your CC away, where does he/she take it? What's done with it? How many
copies of slips are made? Is the number/expiration date copied?
Afterwards, is your signature copied?
Is on-line buying any less secure than that?
===============
Bill Funk
bfunk1 on eBay
Bill Funk
>>I don't think shopping online is safe to begin with. Too many people can
>>spy on you or hack into your computer let alone see what you're buying.
>>Credit cards become more used, thus the numbers are more easily stolen.
>
>
>Just a few thoughts.
>
>Who in the world would hack into an individual's computer just to see what they
>are buying???
>
>As to CC number theft. When you go into a store and use your CC, how many
>employees of the store them have access to your CC#, name, exp. date and is
>some cases your address. Over the years most CC fraud has come from merchants
>and their employees, not hackers or thieves.
>
>Worried about using your CC online. One thing we do is keep a card or two with
>a very small limit to use online. In the unlikely event the numbers is
>"hacked" out the loss would be very small.
The loss wouldn't be more than $50 in such a loss no matter what your
limit is.
>I don't think shopping online is
>safe to begin with. Too many people can
>>spy on you or hack into your computer let alone see what you're buying.
>>Credit cards become more used, thus the numbers are more easily stolen.
>
>>. Is
>>there really a TOTALLY secure way to buy over the internet?
>
>There is no totally secure way to buy anywhere, in person or on line, using a
>credit card.
>
>John
===============
Chris
wording of your questions, that buying on the internet is not within your
comfort level. Almost any non-cash transaction (online or offline) can be
considered "unsafe". If you pay by check, credit card, wire transfer, etc,
you are exchanging more than money. You are giving them information about
you and your life.
eBay adds another level of complexity. If you buy from an established
merchant, they have an incentive to treat your personal information with a
higher level of security - they want your repeat business and they want to
stay in business. On the other hand, an individual selling on eBay may not
care how they treat your address, phone number, email address, etc. They
just want to unload that widget they sold you. (Of course, I'm referring to
the casual seller, not someone who sells on eBay as a business.)
If that makes you uncomfortable, don't do it. Stick with local merchants
and use cash. Electronic commerce fits well within my comfort level, so I
don't worry about it.
"Stacy" <stacy...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:b5EF5.5756$6E.7...@news4.mia...
> I don't think shopping online is safe to begin with. Too many people can
> spy on you or hack into your computer let alone see what you're buying.
> Credit cards become more used, thus the numbers are more easily stolen.
Roger Halstead
N833R World's Oldest Debonair? s# CD-2
"Stacy" <stacy...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:b5EF5.5756$6E.7...@news4.mia...
> I don't think shopping online is safe to begin with. Too many people can
> spy on you or hack into your computer let alone see what you're buying.
> Credit cards become more used, thus the numbers are more easily stolen.
Is
> there really a TOTALLY secure way to buy over the internet?
Stop and think of it this way...
When you shop using your telephone there are many areas where that
transaction goes out over radio links. If you have a cordelss telephone,
you are using a radio to which others can listen (unless it's one of the new
digital and encrypted ones).
When you shop in a store using a credit card, you are giving your card
information to others with the potential for misuse.
When you write a check you are giving out your account number
Do you throw the slips in the trash, shred them, or burn them?
Many a card number has been found by just sifting through the trash that
people and businesses throw out.
There is no true secure way of doing business except cash and you sure
aren't going to cary enough to make major purchases. Besides if you did, in
addition to the hazards of carying lots of cash, the seller is obligated to
report you and so are the banks. Then , the government would investigate
you. The scary part is that they can seize assets just on suspicion and it
sometimes takes years to get them back.
Doing business on the internet is not much different than on a wide scale in
the rest of the world, it's just global by nature. As in the real world, as
opposed to cyberspace you still need to deal with reputable companies.
Whether in cyberspace, or the real world not all works out every time.
Roger (K8RI)
>
>
Debbie The Gruesome
and never had a problem. I've had one odd experience - I was
looking for a docking station for an obsolete laptop a few years ago,
and found a web site that had them new, for about $40. Called them up,
the woman who answered said they had them in stock, took my info and
credit card number. A couple of weeks later, the docking station
appeared - indeed, brand new, return address on the package was
a Mailboxes etc, and no paperwork of any kind. I called the number
back to request a credit card receipt - the guy who answered the
phone said that there were no women working in the order department,
and they had no record of the transaction. My credit card was
never charged for it. Docking station still works fine.
The one thing I won't do is send my credit card number via email:
email is not yet perfect, and I don't want my credit card number
bouncing to some unknown party.
In article <39e71e52$0$95083$45be...@newscene.com>, cld...@your.sockstds.net says...
> If that makes you uncomfortable, don't do it. Stick with local merchants
> and use cash. Electronic commerce fits well within my comfort level, so I
> don't worry about it.
>
--
---
Debbie the Gruesome d...@drizzle.com
"Poodles are space aliens who think they've disguised
themselves as dogs." - Paghat the Ratgirl
http://www.drizzle.com/~das
Bill Funk
wrote:
>No. Of course there also isn't a TOTALLY secure way to buy anything,
>anywhere, from anybody. Clerks at a gas station or department store can
>run your card twice, and use it to steal merchandise. Anyone you have
>ever sent a check to can use it to have new checks printed up and empty
>you're account. They can also draft against your account with the same
>effect. If you want to pay in cash, you could be hit over the head and
>robbed leaving the bank or ATM. If you eschew banks and just bury your
>money in your back yard, you could also be robbed.
>
>Life isn't safe. The only real question is whether you can manage your
>risks, and keep them to an acceptable level. In general, the chance of
>your credit card information being stolen when you send it over the net
>through a secure server is probably less than the risk of your credit
>card information being stolen when you use it at a regular store.
>
>Just to make you totally paranoid, I saw a news story a few weeks ago
>about a store that was stealing account information and passwords from
>customers who used ATM cards, they had a laptop hooked up between the
>device that swiped the cards and the phone line, and they had a small
>camera focused on the keypad to get the account numbers. Feel more
>secure now using those systems where the credit card never has to leave
>your hands?
>
>Richard Ward
A few months ago, I'm having breakfast at the Lodge, and I saw a
similar account in the Sunday paper.
I asked a friend who is a detective on the PPD, if he was familiar
with the case. He said he was.
I asked if the ATM in question had all of its data sent over the phone
lines; he said yes.
I asked why the thieves would use a camera on the keyboard, since the
PIN would have to also go out on the phone line.
His answer: "Because they are stupid."
JT
>
> I don't think shopping online is safe to begin with. Too many people can
> spy on you or hack into your computer let alone see what you're buying.
> Credit cards become more used, thus the numbers are more easily stolen. Is
Sure. Send a check, or use a debit card on an account that has $50 in
it. I would have some very disappointed federal felons on my hands if
anyone got a hold of the CC# I use online.
-- Jack Tarkaan -- mailto:tar...@bigfoot.com
-- Return address intentionally broken. Remove NOSPAM to reply.
David Saad
and used you do not have to pay for it, it may be a bit of a hassle to get a
new credit card but you will not be out any money (Time maybe but not money)
I have had my credit card number stolen from a local gas station and had
$10,000 charged to it, I got a call from Mastercard saying "Did you actually
buy all this stuff?" and I said no, they sent me a form to fill out
(Basically a date, a check box and a signature) and took the charges off my
credit card, it is really the merchants who are taking more of a risk
accepting credit cards than it is buyers using credit cards.
--
David Saad
Muzo Mine Emerald Co.
Click here to search our auctions:
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/davesaad/
"Caroball" <caro...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001013101125...@ng-fm1.aol.com...
> >I don't think shopping online is safe to begin with. Too many people can
> >spy on you or hack into your computer let alone see what you're buying.
> >Credit cards become more used, thus the numbers are more easily stolen.
>
>
> Just a few thoughts.
>
> Who in the world would hack into an individual's computer just to see what
they
> are buying???
>
> As to CC number theft. When you go into a store and use your CC, how many
> employees of the store them have access to your CC#, name, exp. date and
is
> some cases your address. Over the years most CC fraud has come from
merchants
> and their employees, not hackers or thieves.
>
> Worried about using your CC online. One thing we do is keep a card or two
with
> a very small limit to use online. In the unlikely event the numbers is
> "hacked" out the loss would be very small. >I don't think shopping online
is
> safe to begin with. Too many people can
> >spy on you or hack into your computer let alone see what you're buying.
> >Credit cards become more used, thus the numbers are more easily stolen.
>
> >. Is
> >there really a TOTALLY secure way to buy over the internet?
>
David Saad
throw them out, any moron going through the dumpster can get your CC#. No
hacking needed.
--
David Saad
Muzo Mine Emerald Co.
Click here to search our auctions:
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/davesaad/
"Bill Funk" <bfu...@NOSPAMuswest.net> wrote in message
news:39e71c0f...@news.uswest.net...
> On Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:25:35 -0400, "Stacy" <stacy...@juno.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I don't think shopping online is safe to begin with. Too many people can
> >spy on you or hack into your computer let alone see what you're buying.
> >Credit cards become more used, thus the numbers are more easily stolen.
Is
> >there really a TOTALLY secure way to buy over the internet?
> >
> >
> One of my favorite question:
> When you eat out, do you ever pay by CC?
> When that server (who's probably paid well below minimum wage) takes
> your CC away, where does he/she take it? What's done with it? How many
> copies of slips are made? Is the number/expiration date copied?
> Afterwards, is your signature copied?
>
> Is on-line buying any less secure than that?
Richard Ward
showed copies of the tapes with one person tapping in the PIN. I just
assumed there was something I was missing that would prevent them from
capturing the PIN.
Richard Ward
Bill Funk wrote:
<snip>
> I asked why the thieves would use a camera on the keyboard, since the
> PIN would have to also go out on the phone line.
> His answer: "Because they are stupid."
Bill Funk
<d...@drizzle.com> wrote:
>I've been shopping online ever since the first online store appeared,
>and never had a problem. I've had one odd experience - I was
>looking for a docking station for an obsolete laptop a few years ago,
>and found a web site that had them new, for about $40. Called them up,
>the woman who answered said they had them in stock, took my info and
>credit card number. A couple of weeks later, the docking station
>appeared - indeed, brand new, return address on the package was
>a Mailboxes etc, and no paperwork of any kind. I called the number
>back to request a credit card receipt - the guy who answered the
>phone said that there were no women working in the order department,
>and they had no record of the transaction. My credit card was
>never charged for it. Docking station still works fine.
We probably all have stories like that.
Years ago, in Palm Bay (now part of Melbourne) Florida, I bought
something small at a Winn Dixie, and paid with a ten.
As I'm walking out, I realize the checker gave me change for a twenty.
Being a good guy, I turned around and said, "I think you made a
mistake with my change..."
To which she snapped, "Once you walk away from the register, there's
nothing I can do!"
Ooooookay! 'Bye!
...
>Debbie the Gruesome d...@drizzle.com
> "Poodles are space aliens who think they've disguised
> themselves as dogs." - Paghat the Ratgirl
>http://www.drizzle.com/~das
===============
Richard Ward
washer could remove the writing, make it out to another name for most of
the money in the account, then cash it. Of course there are much easier
ways for check washers to get checks, but there are a lot of easier ways
for people who pull credit card scams to get credit card numbers too.
Richard Ward
JT wrote:
>
> Stacy wrote:
> ><snip> Is
> > there really a TOTALLY secure way to buy over the internet?
>
JT
>
> When push gets to shove, a check isn't safe either, because a check
> washer could remove the writing, make it out to another name for most of
> the money in the account, then cash it. Of course there are much easier
> ways for check washers to get checks, but there are a lot of easier ways
> for people who pull credit card scams to get credit card numbers too.
Don't use a ballpoint pen on your checks, eh?
Mac McDougald
Good Lord...every time you hand your credit card to a waiter, you're in
MUCH more jeapordy than with any *reputable* online service!
Mac (doogle)
MFCrunchy
shopping security etc... not saying you won't get the info stolen, but if
you do, you are nearly guaranteed you won't have to pay a cent.
--
---------------------------->>>>-0-<<<<----------------------------
MFCrunchy || E-mail - Ma...@thecrunch.net || Fax - (603) 388-1241
ICQ-18369965; Y! Messenger & AIM-MFCrunchy
I'm in a class by myself. Everyone else graduated.
"Stacy" <stacy...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:b5EF5.5756$6E.7...@news4.mia...
> I don't think shopping online is safe to begin with. Too many people can
> spy on you or hack into your computer let alone see what you're buying.
> Credit cards become more used, thus the numbers are more easily stolen.
Mr. Mike
>I don't think shopping online is safe to begin with. Too many people can
>spy on you or hack into your computer let alone see what you're buying.
>Credit cards become more used, thus the numbers are more easily stolen.
This is true. If you do anything at all on the Internet, people will suck all
the money out of your bank account, kidnap your children and make your dog
pregnant! ";-0
traderod
Mr. Mike <dontch...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:o7nfus40qkgm4pk39...@4ax.com...
Rod
Bill Funk
<dontch...@nospam.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:25:35 -0400, "Stacy" <stacy...@juno.com> wrote:
>
>>I don't think shopping online is safe to begin with. Too many people can
>>spy on you or hack into your computer let alone see what you're buying.
>>Credit cards become more used, thus the numbers are more easily stolen.
>
>This is true. If you do anything at all on the Internet, people will suck all
>the money out of your bank account, kidnap your children and make your dog
>pregnant! ";-0
>
>
And our fixed, male Bassett really hated that!
Fred A. Murphy
On 13-Oct-2000, "Stacy" <stacy...@juno.com> wrote:
> I don't think shopping online is safe to begin with. Too many people can
> spy on you or hack into your computer let alone see what you're buying.
> Credit cards become more used, thus the numbers are more easily stolen.
> Is there really a TOTALLY secure way to buy over the internet?
Sure there is! Just send your trusted servant who has worked for your
family for three generations to the store to get what you want, then give
him the money out of your mattress when he returns with it.
That may sound snippy, but there is no TOTALLY secure way to do ANYTHING,
from walking down the sidewalk to having sex, as the local woman who they
had to pull down out of the tree when the car struck her or many a teenager
can tell you.
As an ebay seller, what should be of far greater concern to you is how many
potential customers are kept away from your offerings because of the
repetition of outdated and foolish ideas about the security of the internet.
These same people think nothing of giving out their credit card numbers
over a cell or portable phone with no encryption whatsoever, blissfully
unaware that their conversations can be listened to by anyone with a UHF TV
set.
What do I mean by "outdated and foolish ideas about the security of the
internet"? For example, in an article in USA Weekend 12/3-5/99, "nearly 7
in 10 consumers believe it's safer to pay for online purchases with checks
or money orders. But for the first six months of 1999, more than 4,750
complaints of online fraud stemmed from check of money order purchases, as
opposed to fewer than 110 from credit card purchases, says the National
Consumers League."
In other words MOST people think credit cards on the internet are a major
source of risk, but the FACT is that you're OVER 43 TIMES as likely to have
a problem with a check or money order.
The reality of the internet is that any of the major players and many of the
mior ones, including ebay sellers, have gone above and beyond the call of
duty in order to make credit cards secure over the internet. Can you get
screwed buying over the internet? Absolutely. The same can be said about
any form of mail order, which is really all internet sales are. For that
matter, you can get ripped off by a door-to-door salesman or have your
possessions stolen by a cleaning service employee given access to them.
As far as access by hackers to your computer is concerned, I think it was
best explained by the whiz-kid who set up my network. It includes the
ability for him to log in and make remote changes to the system. I asked if
that wasn't foolish on my part, allowing him control from the outside, and
potential hacking access to my files. He said "you haven't got anything on
your system that I would want. What do I need with your sales figures or
dirty pictures I can download myself? If I was going to hack someone, I'd
go after a bank where I could make enough to retire, without them knowing
immediately where to go look for the perpetrator."
Life is a risk. Get used to it.
--
Something different. I just read that almost 10% of folks listening to
web-based radio are tuned to http://www.texasrebelradio.com . That's
amazing. And fun to listen to (see "spinning now")
Dan Cottler
<rw...@dallas.net> wrote:
> When push gets to shove, a check isn't safe either, because a check
> washer could remove the writing, make it out to another name for most of
> the money in the account, then cash it. Of course there are much easier
> ways for check washers to get checks, but there are a lot of easier ways
> for people who pull credit card scams to get credit card numbers too.
I just love it... got email from a lady last week ranting about how
insecure credit card transactions over the 'net are, and *informing* me
she was mailing a personal check.
Got the check in Saturday's mail.
In addition to the normal sweets (the interbank and account numbers), it
has her full name, address, phone number, driver's license number, AND
social security number on it.
Now I'm only a few dozen keystrokes away from setting up a cyclic ACH
transfer from her account to my fav secret offshore bankaccount...
- Dan.
--
- Psychoceramic Emeritus <mailto:dar...@usa.net>
- South Jersey, USA, Earth <http://www.crosswinds.net/~darmok>
- Billions of people walking around - like Happy Meals with legs.
leonh...@my-deja.com
"traderod" <trad...@swnospambell.net> wrote:
>
> Mr. Mike <dontch...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:o7nfus40qkgm4pk39...@4ax.com...
> > On Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:25:35 -0400, "Stacy" <stacy...@juno.com> wrote:
> >
> > >I don't think shopping online is safe to begin with. Too many people can
> > >spy on you or hack into your computer let alone see what you're buying.
> > >Credit cards become more used, thus the numbers are more easily stolen.
> >
> > This is true. If you do anything at all on the Internet, people will suck
> all
> > the money out of your bank account, kidnap your children and make your dog
> > pregnant! ";-0
Life isn't safe but with a little knowledge you can reduce your risk. Below
is an article I wrote on how to reduce your risk when shopping on the
internet. I hope it helps a least one person.
How can I tell if I am shopping the Internet safely?
There are many ways to tell if we are shopping in a secure environment or not.
To answer this question we first need to know a little about the "browsers"
that we use to surf the Internet. A browser is a software program used to
view and request web pages off the Internet. It does matter what kind of
browser you use because a lot of the older browser do not support today's
Internet encryption standards. If you have a browser that is not older than 3
year you should be OK, no guarantees on that though. Because there are so
many different types of browser, if after you read this you do not find any
of the following items you many need to dig a little deeper into your
browsers documentation. We are going to answer this question using the 2 most
popular browsers being used Netscape and MS Explorer they are both free for
individuals go to their web sites for details. Most other browser have the
same features just located in a different menu or with different names.
The best way to tell if you're filling out a form in a secure environment is
to look at the Address Bar in MS Explorer and at the Location Toolbar in
Netscape. This is where the web page address is located it usually starts
with an "http" if you do not see this bar you may need to put a check next to
by clicking on its name somewhere in the browsers "View" menu.
Now that we know we should keep our address bar visible so we can see how our
browser is connecting to other web sites. This address bar is the key to
telling us if we are connected securely to the Internet. By looking at the
address in the address bar we will be able to tell if we are connected to a
web page using SSL encryption which is the most commonly known and used
standard on the internet (but not the only one).
Most web page addresses, in this bar start with "http" (example
http://www.dot.com). When the web page address starts with "https" (example
https://www.dot.com) you are in a secure connection with that web site.
Meaning any information (usually an order form) sent from your computer to
their computer has been encrypted.
It is important to understand it is easy to change from secure connection to
unsecured connection with out being able to tell so keep your eye on that
address bar. If it's back to "http" your back to an unsecure connection,
which is fine if you're just surfing. But if you are buying something make
sure the form you are filling out has an "https" (example
https://www.dot.com) address. I have seen a few web sites that have set up
their program wrong. The most common mistakes I have seen are:
-- The form with all your personal information and credit card information is
not sent encrypted with "https" but, you receive your confirmation page and
receipt with "https"
-- You start to fill in a multi page order form and some of the first page is
an "https" address but not the rest.
-- Then there are those web site that claim all kind of security but no
matter how hard you looks you can not find any.
-- Then there are also still a few companies out there that think there is so
much internet traffic who's going to bother trying to pluck something off.
Now that I have armed you with this information so you can tell a secure
Internet connection from an unsecured Internet connection. You are ready to
know nothing is fool proof. But, who would want to spend month or years
trying to unencrypt your little bit of information when there is one right
next to all ready to read.
Also just because you got a secure connection to a web site does not mean
that the owner of that web store is of moral character. That why I recommend
shopping with one of the two following credit card company's. They both have
great safe Internet shopping policies and fraud protection. If there is a
dispute between you and an Internet store they are more likely to favor the
cardholder over the store.
For safe Internet shopping and fraud protection get the following credit
cards.
<a
href="http://www.commission-junction.com/track/track.dll?AID=10394&PID=599969
&URL=http%3A
%2F%2Fwww%2Enextcard%2Ecom%2Findex%2Ehtml%3Fref%3Dcjunction">NextCard
Internet Visa</a><img
src="http://www.commission-junction.com/banners/tracker.exe?AID=10394&PID=599
969&banner=0 .gif" height=1 width=1 border=0> and <a
href="http://www.commission-junction.com/track/track.dll?AID=601466&PID=59996
9&URL=http%3A %2F%2Fwww%2Ecj%2Ecom%2FCustom%2FCapOne%2Easp">Capitol One
</a><img
src="http://www.commission-junction.com/banners/tracker.exe?AID=601466&PID=59
9969&banner= 0.gif" height=1 width=1 border=0>
Leonhard Ott
Web Programmer
http://www.ott1.com
> >
> >
> >
> And Curtis D. will steal your Folger's crystals & substitute his post.
>
> Rod
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.