VISA chargebacks against Paypal no longer possible?
bat
In a recent conversation with Bank One credit card customer service, the rep
mentioned that there was change in the policies, and chargebacks on Paypal
transactions will no longer be granted. Paypal is now considered as
money-transferring service only.
I also noticed that Paypal has removed from their protection policy the
language about Paypal being the merchant of record of the transaction, and
about the possibility of credit card chargebacks.
If this is true, it looks like consumers' protection against fraud on eBay
has decreased _very_ significantly.
Comments?
regards
doubter
>In a recent conversation with Bank One credit card customer service, the rep
>mentioned that there was change in the policies, and chargebacks on Paypal
>transactions will no longer be granted. Paypal is now considered as
>money-transferring service only.
I haven't used Paypal for a Ebay transaction for quite some time now so I
don't have recent first hand experience. But isn't being a
"money-transferring service only" indeed what Paypal is?
Deborah Stevenson
>Hello:
>In a recent conversation with Bank One credit card customer service, the rep
>mentioned that there was change in the policies, and chargebacks on Paypal
>transactions will no longer be granted. Paypal is now considered as
>money-transferring service only.
Interesting. My understanding, however, is that Visa and Mastercard
policies are strongly dependent on the issuer, so this may just be Bank
One. I guess Discover just agreed with the NY Attorney General to go the
other way--they'd been refusing to do chargebacks and now will do so.
>I also noticed that Paypal has removed from their protection policy the
>language about Paypal being the merchant of record of the transaction, and
>about the possibility of credit card chargebacks.
I think maybe you're looking at the wrong policy--the names are somewhat
confusing. The Buyer Complaint Policy still includes discussion of the
credit card rights and how to go about doing them. I don't recall the
merchant-of-record stuff (except when you make a payment and they state
how it'll appear on the credit card), so I can't comment on that. If you
were looking at the Buyer Protection Policy, as it sounds, that's the
cherry-picking one that only applies to specific transactions, and if you
don't make it through that policy, you end up in the Complaint thing
anyway.
So I don't think PayPal is particularly shifting that policy, but I'd be
interested to hear if other Visa/Mastercard issuers were changing their
chargeback policies.
--
Deborah Stevenson
dste...@OBSTACLESuiuc.edu
[eliminate OBSTACLES to email me]
Bertha
muttered something like:
> I haven't used Paypal for a Ebay transaction for quite some time now so I
> don't have recent first hand experience. But isn't being a
> "money-transferring service only" indeed what Paypal is?
I dunno, seems like they kind of put the lie to that by limiting what kind
of merchanise you can sell using their service--no "adult" or pornographic
materials. They probably disagree, but I feel like that gives them more
involvement in all their transactions than just a "transfer service."
-Bertha
--
Some days I'm a bug, other days I'm a windshield.
Deborah Stevenson
I didn't even think of that--sort of the "common carrier" model.
It's kind of like eBay, of course; they want the additional customers that
they'd get from being more than just a pipeline without having any
additional liability. Can't blame 'em for trying, but I think that's a
tough one to pull off.
doubter
In the User Agreement paragraph 2.2 states they are a payment service only
and have no control over items or participants in the transactions.
Paragraph 7.2 states you can't use Paypal as part of illegal activities.
It is here they mention the items you cited.
(Note that I am overly simplifying both for sake of discussion!!)
I don't see a conflict between the two. The statement limiting activities
to legal transactions can hardly be extrapolated to mean they are taking
responsibility for the performance of their customers.
Deborah Stevenson
>On 4 Apr 2004 16:15:14 GMT, Bertha <ber...@yetta.net> wrote:
>>On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 15:56:53 GMT, doubter <dev...@YELL0WBRICKR0AD.COM>
>>muttered something like:
>>
>>> I haven't used Paypal for a Ebay transaction for quite some time now so I
>>> don't have recent first hand experience. But isn't being a
>>> "money-transferring service only" indeed what Paypal is?
>>
>>I dunno, seems like they kind of put the lie to that by limiting what kind
>>of merchanise you can sell using their service--no "adult" or pornographic
>>materials. They probably disagree, but I feel like that gives them more
>>involvement in all their transactions than just a "transfer service."
>>
>In the User Agreement paragraph 2.2 states they are a payment service only
>and have no control over items or participants in the transactions.
>Paragraph 7.2 states you can't use Paypal as part of illegal activities.
>It is here they mention the items you cited.
>(Note that I am overly simplifying both for sake of discussion!!)
I think that oversimplification glosses over a key element,
though--they're not restricting payments for illegal activities in this
way. They're restricting a certain kind of legal payment, for items that
you can buy at many newsstands and bookstores and can legally send through
the mails; that you can, for that matter, legally buy off of their sister
company.
bat
DS>> I also noticed that Paypal has removed from their protection policy
DS>> the language about Paypal being the merchant of record of the
DS>> transaction, and about the possibility of credit card chargebacks.
DS> I think maybe you're looking at the wrong policy--the names are
DS> somewhat confusing. The Buyer Complaint Policy still includes
DS> discussion of the credit card rights and how to go about doing them. I
DS> don't recall the merchant-of-record stuff (except when you make a
DS> payment and they state how it'll appear on the credit card), so I can't
DS> comment on that.
here's the old version:
========
4.Charge Backs. The Buyer Protection Guarantee does not obviate any other
consumer rights Users may have, including charge back rights that may be
granted by the User's credit card issuer. X.com fully stands behind all
credit
card transactions by accepting disputes customers lodge with their issuing
bank. The consumer is fully protected and as the merchant of record we
accept
final responsibility for all card transactions. As such, we afford customers
all the rights and privileges expected of a credit card transaction. You
acknowledge that X.com does not control the outcome of any charge back
decision
initiated through a customer's credit card issuing bank.
========
This is what I've found now on the net. After the demise of x.com, its name
was replaced by Paypal in the above paragraph, but as I recall, otherwise it
was unchanged - until recently. Now it's gone.
If the credit card issuer might argue in the past that paypal only transfers
the money, the customer might effectively argue using the above provision,
plus the fact that Paypal transactions appear on the credit card statement
with the merchant's name reflecting the specific seller: not just Paypal,
but Paypal-sellername, which means that the merchant is not Paypal but the
seller. Now, with the removal of that clause, credit card co. can deny the
chargeback much more easily. The argument is still possible based on the
fact that the transaction was submitted as a purchase vs. cash advance, but
it's much harder.
By the way, while looking at the Paypal buyer protection policy, I noticed
something else interesting: buyers are limited to only 2 paypal protections
per year. I don't recall such a limit being there before.
regards
Deborah Stevenson
>Hello Deborah:
Here's the copy-and-paste from the Buyer Complaint Policy.
3. Relationship between Buyer Complaint Policy and Credit Card
Chargeback Rights. If you used a credit card to fund a purchase of
goods or services through PayPal, you may have chargeback rights
granted by your credit card issuer. Credit card chargebacks, if
they apply, can be filed more than 30 days after the transaction,
are not limited to funds in the seller's balance, and cover cases
where the goods are not as described by the seller as well as
cases of non-delivery.
You can choose to pursue the Buyer Complaint process or your
credit card chargeback rights; however, you cannot pursue both at
the same time or seek a double recovery. If you initiate a Buyer
Complaint claim and, while the claim is pending, you file a credit
card chargeback, PayPal will cancel your Buyer Complaint claim,
and you will have to rely solely on your credit card chargeback
rights, as applicable. If you cancel your Buyer Complaint claim or
it is denied or results in no refund, you may still be able to
pursue credit card chargeback rights. We resolve most Buyer
[and that's where it scrolled off my screen]
I've looked at the Buyer Complaint Policy pretty extensively, largely
because of discussions in this group, especially over the last year or so,
and I don't recall the full wording you quote being in there at any time,
especially not the "fully stand behind" and "merchant of record." So
I really don't think those are recent changes at all. I do remember a
"does not obviate chargeback rights" phrase floating around that isn't
explicitly stated in the section now, but it does pretty extensively
discuss credit card chargebacks, so it certainly hasn't precluded them.
>By the way, while looking at the Paypal buyer protection policy, I noticed
>something else interesting: buyers are limited to only 2 paypal protections
>per year. I don't recall such a limit being there before.
I recall that in Buyer Protection Claims, but then that wouldn't have been
there before since that's quite a new program. Is it also in Buyer
Complaint Claims?
bat
DS>> By the way, while looking at the Paypal buyer protection policy, I
DS>> noticed something else interesting: buyers are limited to only 2
paypal
DS>> protections per year. I don't recall such a limit being there before.
DS> I recall that in Buyer Protection Claims, but then that wouldn't have
DS> been there before since that's quite a new program. Is it also in
DS> Buyer Complaint Claims?
No, it's specifically about the buyer's protection: 2 protections per year;
then only complaints. Complaints don't guarantee anything, and "item
significantly different from the description" does not apply.
regards
Deborah Stevenson
Right. So you're talking about the new policy--this Buyer's Protection
Policy only came into existence last fall or so. I don't remember it ever
being unlimited.
Stan Brown
>In a recent conversation with Bank One credit card customer service, the rep
>mentioned that there was change in the policies, and chargebacks on Paypal
>transactions will no longer be granted. Paypal is now considered as
>money-transferring service only.
This "change" happened quite a few months ago. It's one of the many
reasons why Paypal is a bad idea for everyone except the owners of
Paypal.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
"An expense does not have to be required to be considered
necessary." -- IRS Form 1040 line 23 instructions
Brian Elfert
>In a recent conversation with Bank One credit card customer service, the rep
>mentioned that there was change in the policies, and chargebacks on Paypal
>transactions will no longer be granted. Paypal is now considered as
>money-transferring service only.
I contacted Bank One about this specific issue about a month ago. They
said they didn't have any specific policy about Paypal and doing a
chargeback against Paypal would not be a problem.
Paypal has fraud protection when the transaction occurs on Ebay. They
have very little protection if the transaction is not through Ebay.
I don't know why the card issuer wouldn't issue a chargeback against
Paypal like any other merchant. The caard issuer takes the money back
from Paypal. The card issuer doesn't take a loss.
Brian Elfert
Jim Menning
"Brian Elfert" <bel...@visi.com> wrote in message
news:40744904$0$17252$a186...@newsreader.visi.com...
> "bat" <b...@bats.com> writes:
>
>
> I don't know why the card issuer wouldn't issue a chargeback against
> Paypal like any other merchant.
Maybe because Paypal *isn't* like any other merchant? Paypal is an
intermediary, the dispute is with the other party in the transaction (buyer
or seller), not Paypal. Paypal wasn't either the buyer or seller.
> The caard issuer takes the money back from Paypal. The card issuer
doesn't take a loss.
No, but then Paypal would be at risk for the loss. Why should they be? It
isn't their fault.
jim menning
Kurt
Brian Elfert <bel...@visi.com> wrote:
>
> Paypal has fraud protection when the transaction occurs on Ebay. They
> have very little protection if the transaction is not through Ebay.
But you have to pay for it. There is very little protection otherwise.
If I'm not mistaken, they will only go after money in the user's Paypal
account, though I think someone up here aluded to them going into the
bank account linked to the PP account.
>
> I don't know why the card issuer wouldn't issue a chargeback against
> Paypal like any other merchant. The caard issuer takes the money back
> from Paypal. The card issuer doesn't take a loss.
>
Amex recently made a hassle-free (for me) chargeback to Paypal after
Paypal's protocal failed to help me against a fraudulent seller.
--
To reply by email, replace the word "space" with "renault"
Brian Elfert
>>
>> Paypal has fraud protection when the transaction occurs on Ebay. They
>> have very little protection if the transaction is not through Ebay.
>But you have to pay for it. There is very little protection otherwise.
>If I'm not mistaken, they will only go after money in the user's Paypal
>account, though I think someone up here aluded to them going into the
>bank account linked to the PP account.
The Ebay protection is at no charge to buyer or seller. It is only good
up to $500. The seller must have a feedback rating of 50 or higher and
have 98% positive feedback.
There is some sort of optional protection you can buy that covers more.
Brian Elfert
Rita Ä Berkowitz
You have all the protection you need free of charge when you fund your
PayPal payment with your credit card. For non-delivering sellers and other
shysters one call does it all.
Rita
Mike Berger
the extent that they withhold payments, freeze accounts, etc. So
they should assume the same risk as any credit card merchant
provider.
"Jim Menning" <jmen...@new.rr.com> wrote in message news:<NmZcc.48703$z%1.3...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>...