Mark Higginbotham!
CEXE SEA
working anymore. If someone could provide an email address or some way of
getting in contact with him that would be great.
David Allen
maybe he was late with his month payment - just like everything else he does.
Glenn Fugett
Mr. Allen,
Mr. Higginbotham been arranging for our program for a number of
years. During that time, he has played a huge part in the development
of our marching band and many others throughout the country.
Very few arrangers in this activity are also truly composers.
Mark is an A.S.C.A.P. composer who has won several awards including
the Bernstein Fellowship. He has tremendous knowledge of classical
literature and movie soundtracks. His knowledge and skill regarding
music technology is unmatched (his midi recordings are by far the best
I have heard). He is very creative and one of the smartest people I
have ever met. Most of the schools he has written for have also used
him to program their shows! These are the things that have enabled
Mark Higginbotham to become the most sought after and successful
arranger/composer in our activity today.
Mark has maintained long lasting relationships with many
band programs. As you know, this is not very common in pageantry. He
has done this by providing a superior product and by servicing the
groups through communication and clinics. It is not a coincidence
that most of the BOA Texas Regional Champions and Texas State
Champions in the last 8 years have performed Higginbotham
arrangements/compositions. If indeed there are schools that have
chosen not to continue using his services, I'm sure there are many
other great programs throughout the country that would love to take
their places.
Have a good summer and good luck next year.
Glenn Fugett
FEA
Oh yah....gag me.
Glenn, things change.
No money...no Higgy. Maybe some of the band parents clubs have figured out
what a rip-off guys like Higginbotham are. The guy is laughing all the way
to the bank.
F. Aten
"Glenn Fugett" <gfu...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:402fa252.01052...@posting.google.com...
Klausimus Maximus
par with his level of excellence yet?
Klausimus Maximus
"FEA" <noforest...@home.com> wrote in message
news:41C2EED8A3584340.89ADB5AC...@lp.airnews.net...
FEA
I have no idea....just responding to the very interesting observation and
post by David Allen.
Seems that someone has a bone to pick. Perhaps you should ask Mr. Allen. I
love that Allen actually has the guts to post under his real name.
I do know that these guys writing "shows" and selling them, with most of the
money coming from band parents clubs, are a rip-off. It's a form of taxation
without representation. Competent (not lazy)(and maybe even a little
smart...or say maybe creative or talented)(or maybe properly prepared in
their college/university music education classes) band directors should be
developing their own half-time shows. This task should be listed in a high
school band directors formal job description! It is not rocket
science....and let's remember that it's only for a high school football game
half time show.
Marching contests???? I put them right up there with tittley winks
competitions. I'm sure I'll hear now about the lofty goals and spectacular
benefits. Save it....
F. Aten
"Klausimus Maximus" <jazz...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:9efa83$ltd$1...@slb4.atl.mindspring.net...
Glide825
competitive contest shows.
I'm sure you realize (even if you don't agree with it) that marching contest
productions at the most competitive levels are now designed as a team effort.
The hours put into the planning and execution of each aspect (programming, wind
score composition, drillwriting, percussion composition, guard choreography and
the rehearsal process) are too many for an individual to encumber.
A common belief is that the production is strengthened by using outside
"expertise." Again - I know you don't like this, but it's what has become of
the activity.
In any event, I believe asking the band director to encumber this work would be
like asking the symphony director to conceive of and compose his own music for
each season's concerts. :)
Just my 2 cents.
John Pollard
L.D. Bell High School
Forest E. Aten Jr.
And I think that asking band parents to fund the hiring of "consultants" to
do the job clearly the responsibility of the band director, irresponsible
and abusive. And in some cases...clearly illegal.
When parents are forced to pay these outrageous fees it is a form of
taxation without representation. It is clearly unfair in terms of
competition between schools with students and parents of unequal wealth and
probably violates dozens of laws.
ISD's are allowing band clubs, most of whom now hide behind a 501(c)(3)
non-profit status, to pass through 100's of thousands of dollars that the
district does not declare. The fund raising methods and use of these funds
is suspect. This type of fund raising by booster clubs (school funding) is
the rich school districts newest way around "Robin Hood". It is abusive and
will eventually be tested in the courts.
If the "competitive level" has exceeded the limit of the public school band
director.....the "level" needs a new norm....one more reasonable. Parents
and students should not be forced to fund raise or pay out of pocket the
salaries of outside consultants to do the job of band directors. Big high
schools in Texas often have 3 directors.....many seem to be completely
incompetent when it comes to an activity that persists half of the entire
school year. Why shouldn't parents, students and administrators expect the
band director to be able to do more than implement someone else's work. A
monkey can tell a kid where to stand and how to move from X to X. Again, not
rocket science, not even education.
You sink your own ship when you say, "The hours put into the planning and
execution of each aspect (programming, wind score composition, drill
writing, percussion composition, guard choreography and the rehearsal
process) are too many for an individual to encumber."
You realize that "one person" is doing all of this work....just not the
right person. And, if in fact, the shows have gotten this complex (what a
joke), then the school ISD needs to be prepared to pony up the cash that
pays for these consultants. Parents are losing interest in the rah, rah and
constantly escalating fees. It's only a matter of time before a parent,
subjected to the right recipe of abuse, tests this abusive and in my opinion
illegal system of financing, used by many big (should say rich) school band
programs in Texas.
Just mine and many other band parents 2 cents.
Forest Aten
"Glide825" <glid...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010523025336...@ng-fb1.aol.com...
Fightinglady
talented)(or maybe properly prepared in their college/university music
education classes) band directors should be developing their own half-time
shows. This task should be listed in a high school band directors formal job
description! It is not rocket science....and let's remember that it's only for
a high school football game half time show.>
F. Aten,
Have you ever written a drill before? A piece of musicl? How about any
colorguard work? I mean, come on.....any "competent" musician should be able
to, right? The use of the word "should" in your statement obviously states
this is your opinion and we'll treat it as such. If your problem is with
marching band, don't go. If your problem is with how band directors are taught
in college, become a professor and change things. If your problem is with the
way Marc Whitlock goes about hiring people, become his boss and tell him what
to do. If your problem is with how band programs spend their money, get
yourself on every school board and make a change. If you have a problem with
the whole system, collect more votes than your competitor next time Dick
Floyd's job opens up. Otherwise, what you say will remain your opinion and
float around in fantasyland like the rest of your ideas.
By the way, how's the view from the "cheap seats" judging everyone all the
time?
Diane
Forest E. Aten Jr.
People who abuse power and public trust need to be "judged", as you say,
everyday.
"The cheap seats"......those are seats occupied by band parents and tax
payers. Your arrogance and disregard for these two very critical populations
involved in funding of music education programs is clear.
Have I written "drills"?....many....used them....why? They waste my students
time.
Have I written a piece of music?....yes, and arranged many....several of
these published.
Colorguard....why? It's a waste of time and outside of ALL formal public
school music curriculums. As a matter of fact, marching band objectives and
activities are not listed in MOST formal music education curriculums.
(except to say to children and parents..."if you don't join marching band,
you can't participate in public school music education")
Marc Whitlock will follow the rule of law with regard to fair and legal
hiring practice. I am sure that his oversight will be corrected if he is
ethical and professional. (or his ISD finds out about his post) Illegal
exclusion from public school hiring procedures have been tested in court
many times.
Dick Floyd....now a politician. He stopped being an educator years ago. I
knew a time when he was considered a fine educator....no more. Even if Floyd
could control the rabid marching extremist, he wouldn't. There is way too
much money to be lost by his buddies in rich school districts. (hometown
Richardson) Let them pass that money through...how about it Dick? Do you
think it's legal? We may soon find out. Guys like Floyd could take control
of the situation now...before the TEA, IRS and courts get involved. I doubt
that they will. Most of these guys in control are about to retire and if
they can only get through a few more years unscathed.....it will be someone
else's problem.
Say hi to Dick next time you see him. Tell him I'm still working on the
issues.
F. Aten
"Fightinglady" <fighti...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010523112745...@ng-fm1.aol.com...
FEA
I said "Competent (not lazy)(and maybe even a little smart...or say maybe
creative or talented)(or maybe properly prepared in their college/university
music education classes) band directors should be developing their own
half-time shows. This task should be listed in a high school band directors
formal job description! It is not rocket science....and let's remember that
it's only for a high school football game half time show."
....not, "any competent musician"....your words.
"Fightinglady" <fighti...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010523112745...@ng-fm1.aol.com...
howard hardegree
the same old thing. Sniping from the sidelines is easy.
Forest E. Aten Jr. <fores...@home.com> wrote in message
news:ZuRO6.11731$CD5.5...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
Forest E. Aten Jr.
This NG seems to be in serious decline...rampant with hucksters selling
stuff (including marching band stuff) and porn.
Don't you guys ever submit formal complaints on these creeps.
What you call "sniping from the sidelines" is clearly a position and voice
that you will hear from, more and more often. Learn to live with it.
It is always refreshing to see you and a few others post on the NG using
their real identities.
Forest Aten
"howard hardegree" <how...@timesavertemplates.com> wrote in message
news:74CD91D9469A7A20.4B87AAB5...@lp.airnews.net...
Glide825
Thank you for the structured reply.
<<If the "competitive level" has exceeded the limit of the public school band
director.....the "level" needs a new norm....one more reasonable.>>
You'll get no argument from me there. People will vote with their feet;
meaning that if the activity becomes too unreasonable to the public-at-large
you'll see bands lose more and more members until change becomes necessary.
This has happened in some places. At the moment though (with last year's state
marching contest seeing a crowd of over 24,000 and numbers up in the majority
of the most competitive programs) the "level" is not considered unreasonable by
most who are close to the activity.
If you had told me in 1988 when I graduated from college (in another state)
that I would be involved in contracting clinicians and experts to assist with
this activity to the level they do I would not have believed you. Now - even
from the inside - I can still see clearly why you are saying that it has gotten
out of hand. As with many things, it depends on point of view... Many outside
Texas believe the emphasis placed on football is out of hand, but you're not
likely to see change soon - there is too much support for it. And so it goes
with marching band: So many participants, parents and alums strongly support
it that there is no perceived "abuse" on a global scale. There are those like
you (and, as you say, many others) who think the cart is before the horse.
Your point of view is as valid as any, but at this point in time the support is
so strong for the way it's being done that change is unlikely.
I've heard the arguments about "taxation without representation" before. The
experts (and legislators) are divided on this premise, as well as parallel
issues on "regulation of curriculum," but the following bottom line has been
proven: As long as band (as a whole) remains an elective there will never be a
regulation of many of the components with which you have issues: Ultimately,
people can vote with their feet. The legislators think that's fair enough.
<<You sink your own ship when you say, "The hours put into the planning and
execution of each aspect (programming, wind score composition, drill
writing, percussion composition, guard choreography and the rehearsal
process) are too many for an individual to encumber."
You realize that "one person" is doing all of this work....just not the
right person. >>
I didn't realize I was trying to float a boat... Perhaps I was not clear: In
most competitive programs, concept, writing, choreography, percussion and the
rehearsal process are done by different people. In our case, 3 of those
components are done by directors. The other 2 are contracted.
<<And, if in fact, the shows have gotten this complex (what a
joke), then the school ISD needs to be prepared to pony up the cash that
pays for these consultants. >>
Considering the budget allotted to many athletic endeavors we're in complete
agreement again.
Thanks for the 2 cents.
John Pollard
L.D. Bell High School
<< Subject: Re: Mark Higginbotham!
From: "Forest E. Aten Jr." fores...@home.com
Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 7:36 AM
Message-id: <c9OO6.10609$CD5.4...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com>
Klausimus Maximus
Considering the extremely high stress level placed upon the directors at
LD Bell by themselves to "perform" another gigantic task should not be laid
upon them.. I for one would not like to see Mr G go to the hospital again
or Mr Y (or any director) go nuts and yell like he did my sophomore year.
(BTW Mr Y was and is a great instructor, we just ticked him off)
The responsibility to do great things should never be put on the shoulders
of one director and even 3 directors. It's hard enough dealing with the
students as it is.
Klausimus Maximus
"Glide825" <glid...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010523234305...@ng-mp1.aol.com...
Klausimus Maximus
aren't regular posters (In most cases), they are automated spam
distributors. If you don't like it, complain to the ISP the user is using.
BTW, I will use my real identity online when people grow up and stop
stalking people with the info they find online. Unsolicited e-mails (not on
this NG) from trolls is highly annoying and can be considered a form of
stalking.
It is apparent that we have our own opinions, I am sure we can discuss this
like human beings. If not, there's always amateur wrestling!
KM
"Forest E. Aten Jr." <fores...@home.com> wrote in message
news:19UO6.12416$CD5.5...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
Glide825
While I appreciate your gentile sentiment, our interaction with the students is
all "part of the job."
I can't judge the hospital situation or my predecessor going "nuts," as this
was all before my time at the L.D.B... My supposition would be that these
things were unrelated to the "burden" of work being discussed and more related
to circumstance and temper: All part of the roller coaster ride of high school
band.
The perspective on marching productions which Forest has is, in a historical
sense, broader than that of current students/parents: As little as 20 years
ago many directors in TX used basic stock arrangements (or arranged music
themselves). They also charted the drill (which largely included simple
6-5/step-2/linear formations and "spellouts").
My father was a choir director in this state for 20 years. He and the band
director at his first teaching assignment created halftime shows together (they
were different each week) on the carpet of his living room using plastic army
men and legal pads :)
The extravagent productions we now expect are a far, far cry from the simple,
sprited rah-rah halftimes of yore. Some might say a cry too far. Some call it
evolution. Some of us are just trying to have a good band.
John Pollard
L.D. Bell High School
<< Subject: Re: Mark Higginbotham!
From: "Klausimus Maximus" jazz...@juno.com
Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 11:30 PM
Message-id: <9ei2ri$nto$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>
Forest E. Aten Jr.
Self imposed abuse.
If these same directors concentrated on music education and not marching
band entertainment their health would probably improve. If in fact the
stress from band activities have been the sole cause of the trouble, these
guys should retire or perhaps restructure their band program. Interesting
that the stress and health issue was one of my many arguments two years ago.
This argument was discounted almost to the point of absurdity. In fact,
health issues related to marching band have been long neglected. Kids
subjected to outrageous weather conditions. Excessive exposure to heat,
cold, rain.... Long and unnecessary hours to achieve what? A goofy half time
show for the "natives" in the stands. Of course, marching band contests are
a whole different extreme. Totally self imposed abuse when it comes to
optional (yes, optional...your directors do it by choice) contest
activities.
We could go as far as Mr. Pollard, and say, if you don't like it, or can't
survive..."vote with your feet". Many teachers and student have and this
trend will continue. I'm sure the directors don't want to leave the
profession they were trained in any more than the music student who love
music but hate marching band. One forced out by health issues (your
observation) the other by rabid marching band programs. It seems that some
band directors and administrators are deathly afraid that if the ISD offers
band class with a choice (without having to march), that enough of kids
would make the choice not to participate in marching band that it would
impact the entertainment factor at the local football game and Christmas
parade. (and what???....their image. What a joke.)
Moderation would help in all cases. How much of a "good thing" does one
need? Do you do it until:
the kids health is compromised (I've seen and experienced this as a band
parent)
the directors health is compromised (again your observation)
the kids grades fall (band directors cut the propaganda BS on this topic)
the kids ability to have a "normal" school life is compromised (band cults)
the kids ability to have a "reasonable" home life is compromised (band
director becomes pseudo parent...no way!)(band family argument..called a
cult in normal culture....sicko)
the kids ability to participate in community, church and other public
service effort is compromised (band is not a public service, it's supposed
to be a class...as in formal education)
the music education curriculum is compromised (half a year)
ON, and ON..........
FUN in band isn't the end goal. Learning music is the end goal. Lot's of
other good things come along with that...including fun, but when the
activity is so extreme and obsessive that the core curriculum is compromised
as well as all of the other things listed above, things are out of control
and need to be moderated.
Forest Aten
"Klausimus Maximus" <jazz...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:9ei2ri$nto$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
Klausimus Maximus
KM
"Glide825" <glid...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010524015824...@ng-mh1.aol.com...
Klausimus Maximus
with. The marching band I was involved with enjoyed hard work and as a
result performing a highly polished and kick-butt show. We had a high
success rate and that was only a small part of the fun. Fun does not have
to be party hats and false encouragement from people who don't like to see
kids feel bad if they don't do well by other's standards. Our grades did
not suffer, and that can't be pointed to marching anyways. It's all a
matter of the student doing what he/she is supposed to to make the grades.
Plain and simple.
KM
"Forest E. Aten Jr." <fores...@home.com> wrote in message
news:TD7P6.15563$CD5.7...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
Fightinglady
payers. Your arrogance and disregard for these two very critical populations
involved in funding of music education programs is clear.>
F. Aten,
I didn't realize we were talking about the funding of music education. When
I said "cheap seats" I was talking about how you judge people all the time. I
find your tactics of diverting someone's statements towards whatever benefits
your current position convenient to whatever it is you are trying to say. I'll
give you an example. Lets say I take you saying:
>FUN in band isn't the end goal. Learning music is the end goal.>
to mean
Band shouldn't be fun. After all, our hard taxpaying dollars are going into
the school district. If we intended for our kids to have fun, we'd take them
to the circus. They should learn music at whatever cost. Forget Math, English
and Science. All those classes do is take time away from Mozart and Chopin.
Music should be all there is to a childs education. How convenient for me. F.
Aten is now someone who disreguards anything but music in a childs education.
As for your statements about how marching band objectives are not listed in
"MOST formal music education curriculums", I take it you have researched every
music education curriculum in every state and school district. Otherwise, your
claiming "MOST" means the opinion of one trying to represent the masses. By
the way, what drills have you written? School, date, year and contact number
should be plenty of information. Oh, but I know, you'll turn this around into
"drills to me mean <insert here>" or "my students do plenty of my drills (scale
drills)"
How great it must feel to be think you're right all the time.
Diane
Rocco Pendola
Forest E. Aten Jr.
Your logic is more than a bit twisted.
Good luck and march on.
F. Aten
"Fightinglady" <fighti...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010524205346...@ng-mb1.aol.com...
FEA
easily obtained by contacting the ISD records division and pay the copy and
postage fees.
Not one curriculum reviewed listed specific objectives related to marching
band.
F. Aten
"Fightinglady" <fighti...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010524205346...@ng-mb1.aol.com...
Forest E. Aten Jr.
I have a bit more time so I'll respond to your post in more detail.
You say, "I find your tactics of diverting someone's statements towards
whatever benefits your current position convenient to whatever it is you are
trying to say."
This is called an argument by definition. People use argument to define and
justify a position. It's not necessary to have winners and losers in
argument. The key is that all involved learn from the debate.
In your silly example you argue for me and says things that I have never
said and put me into positions that I have never taken. Most of what you say
is absurd.
Let me give you an example......
I said, "FUN is not the end goal of band"....I also said and you deleted,
"Lot's of other good things come along with that...including fun". Somehow
you got confused and made the mistake of believing that I said (to quote
you), "to mean Band shouldn't be fun".
Follow along, I'm sure you can. You then say...
"They should learn music at whatever cost. Forget Math, English
and Science. All those classes do is take time away from Mozart and Chopin.
Music should be all there is to a child's education. How convenient for me.
F. Aten is now someone who disregards anything but music in a child's
education."
This statement is very, very far from anything that I say, do, or have
promoted in the entire 30 plus years of teaching music. Let me give you
another example.
My oldest daughter was in band at Pearce High School in Richardson, Texas.
The marching was so extreme that a very concerned group of parents 126 sets
of parents took action to encourage or even force change through every means
possible. The program was so unbalanced that my daughter as well as 90 other
kids quit during her sophomore year. I and her mother were very glad that
she did. She is very smart and her academic position strong. There was never
any question about what was more important....academics wins in every case.
She will graduate in the top of her class tomorrow. She will attend Boston
College in the fall....I'm proud to say one of only 2200 selected into the
freshman class out of 19,000 plus applicants. She kept her music going at a
very high level as a member of the Greater Dallas Youth Orchestra. A very
reasonable 3 hour rehearsal on Sunday afternoons with about 6 formal
concerts given each year...of very high quality.
This flies in the face of your vision of my position regarding music
education. I have had hundreds of students in my clarinet studio over the
years make the Texas All-State band. I have always forced issues with my
students academic work and never in all of the days of teaching told a
student that the work on clarinet or music was more important than their
academic work. To the contrary, I have insisted on excellence in the
classroom first...then on to clarinet.
And finally you say, "How great it must feel to be think you're right all
the time."
In the debate over the past several years I have heard this often. So many
people have never really learned how to argue a point. They feel that there
has to be a winner and a loser; someone right and someone wrong.
It might be a good idea for you to take the word FIGHTING out of you alias.
Argue passionately. Fighting is a whole different ballgame.
Forest Aten
"Fightinglady" <fighti...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010524205346...@ng-mb1.aol.com...
Vgf1
Again, no specifics.
Forest E. Aten Jr.
"Vgf1" <vg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010525010840...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
Forest E. Aten Jr.
Does your ISD's music curriculum address marching band objectives
specifically?
F. Aten
"Vgf1" <vg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010525010840...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
Fightinglady
and put me into positions that I have never taken.>
F.Aten,
Kind of like you saying:
>Your arrogance and disregard for these two very critical populations
involved in funding of music education programs is clear.>
I never disreguarded anyone. Especially band parents and taxpayers. Your
insinuation and assumption here puts me into positions I have never taken in my
30 something years as a human. So, my "arguement by definition" is that you
are an individual who takes things out of context, makes assumptions to try and
pad your arguement and ignores when people call you out on something.
Still waiting on contact numbers for the "many drills" you have written.
Did you know in the several hundred times you have posted on the internet
you have never admitted you were wrong? Even when many people have given facts
to prove you this way. Convenient. You simply manage to divert, change the
subject and distort the facts to continue enjoying your own fantasy world.
Your daughter must be proud of her father spending so many hours being negative
on the internet. She must marvel at your intelligence by posting on a marching
band newsgroup when you've openly admitted to disliking the activity. Oh yeah,
by the way, the "FIGHTING" in my screen name refers to one of my hobbies,
kickboxing. Considering that, I do believe I'll leave things the way they are.
Diane
Forest E. Aten Jr.
"calling me out".... oh, well...ya gonna-kick-me? :-)
The fact is that your statement was clearly arrogant and did disregard the
two populations mentioned. Do you fall into either of the two groups. If you
do which? If your are a member do you have fair and reasonable
representation?
facts...who's facts. Do you know if the statements made, as your claimed
facts, are true? I doubt it.
Posts.....Thousand, I'm sure.....
You gravitate, again, back to who's right who's wrong......who's the winner,
who's the loser. I guess this is conditioning from marching band contests
and kick boxing events. I have 0 interest in either....and neither of these
disciplines have anything to do with music education.
My daughter's interest in music education is limited to her clarinet. She is
plenty happy to have me address abusive situations regarding marching band
and it's questionable relationship with public school music education. You
see she understands the issues, she is not a member of the "cult".
Marching band should be offered outside of the school curriculum as a club
activity. This would be best for all concerned as it could/would be pursued
by choice, not forced upon those that have no interest at all. It won't be
long before we see this trend out in the schools. (or should I say outside
of the schools)
F. Aten
P.S. I guess you missed the part about the drills....remember the "why"? It
is a huge waste of time. Life is way to short to dedicate a life to marching
band....what a sad commentary that would be.
"Fightinglady" <fighti...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010525145032...@ng-cs1.aol.com...
Ron Arvis
If you hate marching band so much then quit reading the NEWS of
it...........I think you will find a perfect fit for you over in the old
fart section right next to the leave us alone champter
GEEZE.
"Forest E. Aten Jr." <fores...@home.com> wrote in message
news:nqyP6.21308$CD5.10...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
J K Nitsch
JKNitsch
HouBriggs
all of the attention he gets on this newsgroup. Regardless what anybody says to
him, he will ALWAYS think he is right. It's like me going to
alt.clarinetteachers.texas and saying the clarinet is a horrible instrument and
all private clarinet teachers who actually PROMOTE the value of the instrument
are idiots. Now, I know the analogy is not 100% accurate, but I sure would be
in the spotlight for a long while. But the problem I have with this is that
NOTHING is being accomplished based soley on his arguments posted on this
newsgroup. Your whole point is to make marching band and after school club.
You have stated before that you and hundreds of parents have tackled this
"problem" head-on. Fine. How is posting on this newsgroup accomplishing your
goal? You can post all of the reasons why and what steps you have taken to
attain your "goal", but do you really think that by posting here you are really
making a difference in your quest to make marching band a club? You can post
anywhere you want, you can ruffle as many feathers at Pearce that you want, but
when you post here your negative thoughts on the activity, of COURSE you are
going to run into opposition. I personally could care less and in my opinion
you are wasting your time by posting here. Life's too short, but post away.
Your spotlight is awaiting..
Don
Forest E. Aten Jr.
Every forum has opportunity. Much can and will eventually be accomplished.
If even one student on this NG starts to think on their own and make
decisions that benefit their future....i.e. better grades, better family
life, better contributions to community, and finally, becomes a better
musician (not marcher) then progress has been made toward a better public
school music education.
You are very right when you say, "Now, I know the analogy is not 100%
accurate". Your "clarinetteachers.texas" group is not a school district with
a formal and published curriculum. Curriculums submitted and approved by the
TEA and then to be followed by the IDS. If band directors "shoot from the
hip" and do not fulfill their obligation to the curriculum, they then fail
the student.
Marching band is not included most formal curriculum. Marching band does
very little to teach music. As many have pointed out, it may offer up "fun"
and structure and this and that....but very little music.
It also may be true, that there is a group of people in the world that think
that the football field is a fine concert hall....I'm not one of these
people.
Even in marching bands finest hour, the contest, it is more like a football
game or a gladiator event than an artistic effort. Natives in the stands,
with the emperor and minions sitting on high giving the thumbs up or down.
What a cruel joke and sad example in drama. Kids driven into a frenzied over
the dribble called marching band. Ask these same kids if they know about the
origin and history of marching band.....ask them if they know about any
current war in any country in the world. Ask them if they can point out that
country on a globe. Marching band has always been functional. Trying to turn
a marching band into a lofty artform will fail....because it isn't art. Oh,
it may be art to a few parents or the NASCAR audience or the WWF...right up
there with the new and failed football league....but.....
When public school music educators "come-a-round" and figure out that
teaching music is the real objective set forth in the curriculum, things
will change for the better. Marching will become what is was always intended
to be, PR and entertainment; something functional at a brutal and stupid
activity, on Friday nights in this country, called football (or perhaps
offer up a school identity at the Christmas parade).
I'm not concerned about your "opposition". Educators (and parents)
throughout history have always met with "opposition" when confronted with
students (and kids) that wanted it "their way" instead of the "right way".
The formal music curriculum represents that "right way". Curriculum has
clearly defined what public school music education (and every other
discipline) should be for decades. Who develops this curriculum.....music
educators. Why are some educators not following the tenets of their own
formal work? Many do.....it's really only a few that have decided to go the
way of "winning the blue ribbon" that have pulled everyone off course. I
have observed many reasons why these extremist stress marching in their
programs.
1 incompetence as a musician (marching is easier)
2 incompetence as an educator (marching is easier)
3 again, they are good at marching and poor at music education
4 they like to have fun more than they like to teach
5 they like to win (self promotion)
6 administrators like to say they won (self promotion)
7 parents like to say they won (self promotion)
8 parents like to have fun more than they like to say, "go do your
homework"...or how about, "go practice your instrument...and not on marching
band garbage".
And finally.....your statement, "I could care less"....
I'm sure that you care and are passionate about marching band. The problem
is that you are completely clueless with what public school music education
is (defined by curriculum) or once was, by practice.
Moderation is the key. Moderation in marching band is in the best interest
of the public school music student.
F. Aten
"HouBriggs" <houb...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010526085634...@ng-cr1.aol.com...
Klausimus Maximus
> Don,
> Marching band is not included most formal curriculum. Marching band does
> very little to teach music. As many have pointed out, it may offer up
"fun"
> and structure and this and that....but very little music.
Then maybe you're doing it wrong. Maybe you shouldn't belittle how marching
band doesn't teach music, even though it does. Maybe you should start
trying to find a way to improve music education through marching. Marching
band teaches many things including: how to tune in adverse conditions, group
harmonics and dynamics, music timing, rhythm, and many many many other very
important aspects of music. It teaches how to play together and how to work
together towards a higher group goal. If done correctly it can teach how to
memorize music so this can be later translated into more pieces learned and
techniques memorized. This in turn can lead to the ability to improvise
music well because of the techniques memorized, etc...
I'm sorry if you didn't have a great experience with marching band, but
don't generalize that something most students find that they may care more
about isn't important.
Klausimus Maximus
Forest E. Aten Jr.
Again trying to make marching something is isn't and will never be.
F. Aten
"Klausimus Maximus" <jazz...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:9eokk0$c7n$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
HouBriggs
Couple comments based on your reply.
>Every forum has opportunity. Much can and will eventually be accomplished.
>If even one student on this NG starts to think on their own and make
>decisions that benefit their future..
Students who visit this newsgroup enjoy the activity of marching band. Just
because one enjoys the activity, does not mean they don't have the ability to
think for themselves. I for one had good grades, a great family life AND was
an excellent musician. Did marching band contribute? Maybe. Did it HURT my
musical abilities and contributions in life? Absolutely not. Marching band
did teach me discipline, teamwork which are important in life. I don't think
there is anything wrong with that, and I don't see anything wrong with the
public school system accepting that. The fact is that many kids are in band
because of marching season. Not all are the most talented, but at least they
are part of a group that keeps them very busy. There is nothing wrong with
this.
Too much free time equals a lot more time to get in trouble.
>It also may be true, that there is a group of people in the world that think
>that the football field is a fine concert hall....I'm not one of these
>people.
Me neither
>Even in marching bands finest hour, the contest, it is more like a football
>game or a gladiator event than an artistic effort.
To each his own. I happen to enjoy going to marching band events and find them
exciting and artistic. This doesn't make me out of touch with reality because
my views are different from yours.
>Natives in the stands
Parents supporting their children are now "natives". That's not very nice
Aten.
>with the emperor and minions sitting on high giving the thumbs up or down.
Doesn't this really happen in life? In the real world, you have as you call
them "emperor and minions" judging your every move at work. Look at the big
picture Aten.
>ask them if they know about any
>current war in any country in the world. Ask them if they can point out that
>country on a globe.
Band students typically are the best students in the school. Don't
underestimate their knowledge. Did marching band make them smart? Probably
not. Is marching band to be blamed for student incompetence? Only if you're
Aten.
> Trying to turn
>a marching band into a lofty artform will fail....because it isn't art.
At the museum of modern art in Houston there are a LOT of things that I
personally don't consider art. But again, to each his own.
>When public school music educators "come-a-round" and figure out that
>teaching music is the real objective set forth in the curriculum, things
>will change for the better.
You have insulted every music teacher out there. Most music teachers provide
an excellent education for children. They work hard every day to bring the joy
and emotion of music into student's lives. I really hope this negative,
general attitude about music teachers doesn't drift into your clarinet studio.
>Why are some educators not following the tenets of their own
>formal work? Many do.....it's really only a few that have decided to go the
>way of "winning the blue ribbon" that have pulled everyone off course.
Everyone off course? EVERYONE? Again, you have insulted every public school
music teacher out there.
>I
>have observed many reasons why these extremist stress marching in their
>programs.
>
>1 incompetence as a musician (marching is easier)
HA. Making all-state twice, performing in Carnegie Hall, and being principal
saxophone in my college's wind ensemble for five years does not make me an
incompetent musician. Oh, and I wouldn't have to "self promote" myself if you
wouldn't have claimed I and every music teacher was musically incompetent.
>5 they like to win (self promotion)
It is much more fun to see the reaction of the kids when they do well. Any
good band director will say that.
>The problem
>is that you are completely clueless with what public school music education
>is (defined by curriculum) or once was, by practice.
Now I'm "clueless" because I don't agree with your point of view. I hope you
don't say to your clarinet students they are "clueless" when they do something
musically you don't like.
Well, this "clueless" public music educator is going to go see a movie so I'm
going to have to cut this conversation short.
Don
Forest E. Aten Jr.
The students that visit this NG can enjoy anything they want...I don't care.
Indoctrination has become a huge part of what you (music educator) call
education. The word "cult" always is easy to use and justify when looking at
what currently happens in band programs throughout Texas.
Grades....I'm tired of hearing the myth about students having better grades
during marching season. The RISD was unable to show this to be a fact, as a
matter of fact the Pearce band two years ago marched with holes in the block
because so many students grades would not qualify them for participation.
The excessive and abusive number of hours dedicated to marching efforts in
the fall do cost students time that should be spent on the more important
aspect of education.....academics. Add to this a real observation. I counted
over 40 honor graduates in this years graduating class at Pearce, including
the Valedictorian, that quit band in the past two years. Perhaps we could
agree on the fact that we would have more of the best and brightest in our
(your) bands if moderation during marching season was the norm.
Secondly....the mention of how marching band instills discipline, teamwork
and other assorted life skills has always been a bit puzzling. I guess
marching band is the only activity on the planet that instills in a student
or young man or woman these skills???? I can only think of about a thousand
ways to do the same....and as well...and even better because there are about
a thousand better ways to accomplish this task.
Thirdly....and of course the old party line the character of a student, "if
the kids time is not completely occupied they are going to be a part of the
criminal infrastructure." This is the most laughable assumption in your
post. Sorry...but this is complete BS. It is a truly abusive ploy to divert
frightened parents into forcing kids to stay in band when they clearly don't
want to be there. About 90 kids quit the Pearce band two years ago...I know
most of them...none have become criminals. And this without the care and
nurturing of "mother band director".
Regarding losing touch with reality...I never said you lost touch with
reality. I said you lost touch with what is important.
"natives in the stands", as you know, have always referred to the general
audience in the football stands. There are about a dozen appropriate
definitions for the use of "native" or "go native" or "nativeness"....some
are offensive, some are humorous and most define a persons place by birth,
circumstance, standing or other....
Here is a good example.......place: marching band contest stands....by
birth: that's my kid over there. Get it? The stands become the native
location for marching band contests...with the parents and supporters
becoming native to this environment. Perhaps you have a problem with bigotry
that clouds the definition.
I have also always been curious about the justification and abuse by
directors that say, "we are doing what we are doing because this is the way
it is in the 'real world'. We are now going to give you a dose of the real
world."
Stick to the curriculum. The curriculum doesn't give you the right to abuse
a kid like the 'real world' might, just because they are in your band. I can
hear in your post, all of the abusive and very incorrect manipulation you
use in controlling your current environment.
I guess the only other BS and weird idea that you forgot to list in your
party line post, was how the band is a "family". Nurturing to the youth of
America. Gag...
I've got news for you Don. If the student in marching band had more time,
they could spend it with their real family, not their (sometimes) abusive
band family. (Mr. BandDirectorDad, can I go home now....)
And yes, clueless is what I said.
F. Aten
"HouBriggs" <houb...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010526152819...@ng-cu1.aol.com...
Klausimus Maximus
> I guess the only other BS and weird idea that you forgot to list in your
> party line post, was how the band is a "family". Nurturing to the youth of
> America. Gag...
> I've got news for you Don. If the student in marching band had more time,
> they could spend it with their real family, not their (sometimes) abusive
> band family. (Mr. BandDirectorDad, can I go home now....)
>
So, what if there is no family for little Johnny or Susie Marcher to go home
to? What if they love marching? What if............
blah, blah, blah......
We will throw out every good, clean, pure, fun, reason to be in marching
band and you'll throw it out cause you don't agree. Sir, guess what??? You
are biased because of your daughter's experience. I am biased toward the
good because first of all, I had an excellent experience in marching band
and two, my attitude is good towards new ideas. Apparently, in this area,
yours is not.
KM
Next???
HouBriggs
>what currently happens in band programs throughout Texas.
HAHAHA. Ok, you go on believing that. We won't disturb your delusions.
>Grades....I'm tired of hearing the myth about students having better grades
>during marching season. The RISD was unable to show this to be a fact
Well, whether you are tired of it or not that doesn't matter. Check the
all-state SAT scores. Is marching band directly responsible in the elevated
SAT scores....NO. Does it hurt your SAT scores....hardly. Oh, but wait.
Sorry. Pearce band was probably so abusive that students had no time to
prepare.
>Secondly....the mention of how marching band instills discipline, teamwork
>and other assorted life skills has always been a bit puzzling.
Well, whether you believe it or not marching band does instill discipline,
teamwork and other assorted life skills. Did I say it was the only thing that
could do so? You may be able to think of a "thousand" better ways to do the
same, but the fact is that sometimes these kids don't have another outlet. Not
all families are perfect. There is nothing wrong having band instill these
things.
>Thirdly....and of course the old party line the character of a student, "if
>the kids time is not completely occupied they are going to be a part of the
>criminal infrastructure.
Have you ever taught in the inner city? I teach some INCREDIBLE kids, but
things are different in the inner city than what might be in Richardson. I'm
not going to begin listing the differences because I figure that you are bright
enough to understand that.
>" This is the most laughable assumption in your
>post. Sorry...but this is complete BS
Funny, I thought your idea that marching band was a "cult" was the most
laughable assumption in your post. Oh, by the way, my band kids are only
allowed to wear nikes and white robes. HA.
>About 90 kids quit the Pearce band two years ago...I know
>most of them
If 90 kids quit the Pearce band then there is OBVIOUSLY a problem. I give you
that. This past year I have had a 95% retention rate. I am not the only public
school music teacher with a good retention rate. The problem I have with your
comments is you over-generalize your statements to include "all or every music
teacher".
>I said you lost touch with what is important.
What you think is important and what I think is important is different. My
priority in my job are my kids.
>"natives in the stands", as you know, have always referred to the general
>audience in the football stands. There are about a dozen appropriate
>definitions for the use of "native" or "go native" or "nativeness"....some
>are offensive, some are humorous and most define a persons place by birth,
>circumstance, standing or other....
>Here is a good example.......place: marching band contest stands....by
>birth: that's my kid over there. Get it? The stands become the native
>location for marching band contests...with the parents and supporters
>becoming native to this environment. Perhaps you have a problem with bigotry
>that clouds the definition.
I take it back, THAT is the most humorous thing in your post.
>I have also always been curious about the justification and abuse by
>directors that say, "we are doing what we are doing because this is the way
>it is in the 'real world'
I am abusing my students by preparing them for what is going to happen in life?
>Stick to the curriculum
As a professional, you have to learn to adapt to situations. You have to be
the students teacher, counselor and sometimes a parent.
>I can
>hear in your post, all of the abusive and very incorrect manipulation you
>use in controlling your current environment.
This is getting better and better.... Aten, are you seriously judging my
ability to be a teacher based on ways you can "hear" my post. I'm actually
having a discussion with somebody who is hearing voices?
>If the student in marching band had more time,
>they could spend it with their real family, not their (sometimes) abusive
>band family.
Well, unfortunately a lot of my kids see marching band as their band family.
See, teaching in the inner city has taught me not all is perfect on the
homefront. A lot of time the parent is not there because they are trying to
make ends meet by taking a night job. You might find this "laughable", but
that's OK. I don't expect you to understand.
>And yes, clueless is what I said.
Brilliant. I'm hurt.
Don
FEA
So you have decided that the band director is going to become a students new
foster parent? The band students their new brothers and sisters??? Wow...how
much fun? It's clear just how little responsibility you've really had to
accept.
If you love marching fine...just don't impose this passion on everyone else.
(which is the way it works in most places in Texas)
Pure, good, clean...bla, bla, bla (as you say) doesn't have anything to do
with the responsibility of the educator to fulfill the curricular objectives
set forth by the school district and State.
I'm glad you had a good time in marching band. My daughter's experience was
not good....as well as many, many other students that you do not choose to
recognize. I've been teaching music in Texas for 30 years. I've seen plenty
of abuse. Out of sight out of mind. Conform or your out. Out of sight, no
problem. March or no music education.
I think you are the one with the problem with a bias. Change can be good.
The "march or your out" rule needs to be changed.
Exclusion and isolation....all part and parcel of the cult mentality.
F. Aten
"Klausimus Maximus" <jazz...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:9epc90$8pd$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
Klausimus Maximus
news:85B726ACCAB135D3.78F350DB...@lp.airnews.net...
> Max,
>
> So you have decided that the band director is going to become a students
new
> foster parent? The band students their new brothers and sisters???
Wow...how
> much fun? It's clear just how little responsibility you've really had to
> accept.
It's clear to everyone else here that you have no basis for the conclusions
you are drawing. Who else is to be their family if they have no family?
> If you love marching fine...just don't impose this passion on everyone
else.
> (which is the way it works in most places in Texas)
There is always a choice.
> Pure, good, clean...bla, bla, bla (as you say) doesn't have anything to do
> with the responsibility of the educator to fulfill the curricular
objectives
> set forth by the school district and State.
I never said it did.
> I'm glad you had a good time in marching band. My daughter's experience
was
> not good....as well as many, many other students that you do not choose to
> recognize. I've been teaching music in Texas for 30 years. I've seen
plenty
> of abuse. Out of sight out of mind. Conform or your out. Out of sight, no
> problem. March or no music education.
So far all you've said is that you saw it with your daughter's program. I
agree that it should never be the case that you can't play if you don't
march. However, it is done in many places I've seen.
> I think you are the one with the problem with a bias. Change can be good.
> The "march or your out" rule needs to be changed.
>
> Exclusion and isolation....all part and parcel of the cult mentality.
>
Cult this, cult that.... Quit whining and do something to affect change.
KM
FEA
No "hurt" intended...
Have "fun" marching.
I choose music education over entertainment.
Kids should have a choice and opportunity to participate in a public school
music education without the marching. I've asked many times...what are the
band directors afraid of? Are you afraid that you might have so many kids
want to participate in a formal curriculum that it may compromise your
marching fun?
F. Aten
"HouBriggs" <houb...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010526205643...@ng-cu1.aol.com...
FEA
F. Aten
"Klausimus Maximus" <jazz...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:9epvjp$1pb$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
Rodney Parker
who tells me that I don't teach music during marching season has no idea
what they're talking about. In fact, I teach a lot of the same concepts
that I teach in the spring (tone production, intonation, rhythmic skills,
ear-training skills, concepts of balance and blend, concepts of teamwork &
discipline, etc.). The only difference in the fall is that I also teach
marching skills.
You may not agree with Marching Band as it is now, but to insinuate that my
kids don't get "musically educated" in the fall is not only ludicrous, it's
insulting as well.
--
Rodney Parker
Director Of Bands
Levelland ISD
"Forest E. Aten Jr." <fores...@home.com> wrote in message
news:0nRP6.24694$CD5.13...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
Glide825
From: "Forest E. Aten Jr." fores...@home.com
Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 12:05 PM
Message-id: <0nRP6.24694$CD5.13...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com>
>Marching
> band teaches many things including: how to tune in adverse conditions,
group
> harmonics and dynamics, music timing, rhythm, and many many many other
very
> important aspects of music. It teaches how to play together and how to
work
> together towards a higher group goal. If done correctly it can teach how
to
> memorize music so this can be later translated into more pieces learned
and
> techniques memorized. This in turn can lead to the ability to improvise
> music well because of the techniques memorized, etc...
No a chance.....
Again trying to make marching something is isn't and will never be.
F. Aten>>
Forest,
In my experience the marching band process can be very effective teaching
rhythm and timing to a group; This is because students literally become
physically involved with meter and pulse. Are you familiar with the methods of
rhythmic training which involve movement in the Suzuki system? Just as similar
methods are used with Orff and Kodaly curriculae in elementary music, Suzuki
takes it to a higher level. Basic to advanced marching fundamentals taught by
good educators use these methodologies and are coupled with components of
classical dance to teach physical interpretation of pulse (particularly with
the color guard). I can tell you with certainty that students in our lower
high school bands have, in many cases, benefitted more from three months of
this outside rhythmic training than in three years of inside attempts at the
junior highs. Why? Because they are suddenly being held physically, visibly
accountable. Vic Firth, one of the finest percussion performers and educators
living has commented on how the marching activity is a tremendous tool for
teaching rhythm. As someone "in the trenches" I can verify this.
Even if you disagree with other tenets of the activity, I hope you can see the
usefulness this training holds, especially for students who may need the extra
physical involvement marching provides.
2 more cents :)
John Pollard
L.D. Bell High School
Lilac
Glide825 <glid...@aol.com> wrote
> Forest,
***snip bunches of good stuff to save bandwidth***
> Even if you disagree with other tenets of the activity, I hope you can see
the
> usefulness this training holds, especially for students who may need the
extra
> physical involvement marching provides.
>
> 2 more cents :)
>
> John Pollard
> L.D. Bell High School
Gotta say one thing for Forest...we owe him a debt for getting this
newsgroup lively again. Terrific arguments on both sides of the fence,
although I'll always be on the marching side.
Now..on to the important question...what does everyone have planned for the
upcoming marching season??
Lisa Wallace
Former TC band Mom and lifetime fan
Current Hebron fan as well
Ron Arvis
many. Thats why nothing gets done towards your false fantasy goal
buckaroo........
Don, you are 100% right!
"HouBriggs" <houb...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010526085634...@ng-cr1.aol.com...
Ron Arvis
Ever heard the 8 hour rule?
"Forest E. Aten Jr." <fores...@home.com> wrote in message
news:0XVP6.26404$CD5.13...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
Ron Arvis
Yet another witty comment pulled from FEA's book of iggnorance!!
"Forest E. Aten Jr." <fores...@home.com> wrote in message
news:0nRP6.24694$CD5.13...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
Ron Arvis
person like you..
Ya know what, your experince doesnt count for the entire state or country.
i will state for a fact that my students are well motivated by marching
percussion that it motivates them for conert ensembles as well.
I always hated seeing the bands who never did anything but Jazz band just
cuz the director wanted to do only that.....again, enrollment figures will
attest to this.
"FEA" <noforest...@home.com> wrote in message
news:8DC8466A217DCB65.E05B603D...@lp.airnews.net...
Forest E. Aten Jr.
F. Aten
"Ron Arvis" <tshir...@home.com> wrote in message
news:20tQ6.8593$qs3.3...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
Forest E. Aten Jr.
You might be surprised.
F. Aten
"Ron Arvis" <tshir...@home.com> wrote in message
news:lPsQ6.8532$qs3.3...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
Forest E. Aten Jr.
Ever heard of directors that violate rules??? Including the infamous 8 hour
rule? Why did we have to institute the 8 hour rule? Do you know? Let me
spell it out. A-B-U-S-E
F. Aten
"Ron Arvis" <tshir...@home.com> wrote in message
news:nWsQ6.8568$qs3.3...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
Forest E. Aten Jr.
Good points...but...
Many of the "big school" programs take marching to such extremes (I also
have 30 years experience in Texas school music and know this to be true)
that student's lives are profoundly impacted. Some lives "for the
better"...many lives, not.
The fact that the music fundamentals can and in some cases do "get taught"
does not address the exclusionary policies of school districts and band
directors. How about students that simply do not want to march? Students
should have every opportunity to participate in a public school music
education without marching. The old argument that "we don't have the
resources" won't fly. You seem to be able to come up with plenty of extra
resources for marching band. A drill writer du-da, a flag du-da, a drum
du-do and guard do-da, tens of thousands of dollars of percussion equipment
and broadcast quality P.A. equipment.....and all (most) at additional
expense to band parents.
In the RISD battle, the school administration finally had to make it clear
to parents that they did not have to pay for the part of the bill that
included these consultants. Their children COULD participate in public
school music without having to buy into this GOTTA HAVE mentality regarding
outside consultants. It had to do with State and Federal law and equal
opportunity and exclusion. Both the TEA and IRS made clear statements
regarding this issue, in favor of parents. Unfortunately parents continue to
be taxed without representation in in many ISD's. A court case will end this
practice eventually. It will simply take the right band parent, with the
right resource, combined with the right abusive director/program, and
finally the courts will force the schools to eliminate this practice and
commercial abuse.
I'm glad you have formalized at least some fundamentals in your program.
You know John....when music educators spend money and resourse during
concert season, on a FULL TIME consultant, (I'm not talking about private
teachers) I'm talking about what directors like to call "staff" (for lack of
a better or more honest word) for a clarinet du-da, trumpet du-da, horn
du-da, etc. du-da...and a more reasonable schedule during marching season
appears.....
I'll then be convinced that things have changed.
F. Aten
"Glide825" <glid...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010527153109...@ng-ft1.aol.com...
Forest E. Aten Jr.
Perhaps you fall into the minority. Those few music educators that actually
spend time teaching more than one marching drill all fall long.
Half-notes, whole notes...loud notes. Win the blue ribbon.
How about extremes?
So many band directors have gone over the edge with abusive schedules during
marching season.
I don't care if it's their "real world"
I don't care if it teaches discipline...so do a lot of other things
I don't care if it's fun...so are a lot of other things
The abuse is wide spread in this "sport" called marching band. Remember that
P.E. credit some like tell me about??? Isn't THAT a great reason to stay in
band? I get a P.E. credit.....sad.
Lack of respect of student's time,
compromised academics
compromised family involvement (please save me the "band family" BS)
community involvement?
health?
and how about music? not the general garbage presented in marching band
(popular maybe, but not the "real" idea behind the formal curriculum)
etc.
are just a few concerns. This doesn't even address that lack of commitment
by many, many directors to teach music per the formal curriculum.
Are directors doing such a bad job with the formal music education dictated
by the curriculum that they have to stress marching band to the extreme just
to keep kids involved. If so, music education is in very bad shape. Is it
any wonder, with the current state of music education, that so very many
music teachers work a only a few years and then go on to selling insurance
or go into the fund raising business (more hawks after band parent money)?
You may have it gotten it right....if so, great. Keep it up..we need more
mentors.
F. Aten
"Rodney Parker" <rlpa...@door.net> wrote in message
news:th12dob...@corp.supernews.com...
Klausimus Maximus
> Rodney,
>
> Perhaps you fall into the minority. Those few music educators that
actually
> spend time teaching more than one marching drill all fall long.
> Half-notes, whole notes...loud notes. Win the blue ribbon.
>
Which state of Texas are you in??? Apparently not the same one I've been
living in for the past 20 years. (Granted, I've only been involved in
marching for about 6 or 7 years of those 20) This may have used to be the
case, but not as of the past 6 years.
KM
Forest E. Aten Jr.
I forgot "high notes".
F. Aten
"Klausimus Maximus" <jazz...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:9etvlo$76o$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
Glide825
See if I'm close to being on-target. I don't want to put words in your mouth:
+
It sounds like your primary concerns about the "extremes" this activity has
reached center around the time demanded of students, coupled with the resources
spent on marching productions. You are further concerned by the fact that all
the time and resources amount only to an 8 minute outdoor production which, by
its nature, is limited in its ability to communicate mature musical elements
(whereas many of the lacking elements are intrinsic to traditional "indoor"
musical instruction).
Your secondary concern - again, as I interpret your posts - is that there are
places where marching band instruction includes musically counterproductive
components, such as stress on volume, "dumbed down" arrangements (whole note
chords), ranges beyond good sound quality, distortion of the composer's intent,
etc.
+
By separating these two issues (the time and resources issue & the
what-is-being-taught issue) I think most reasonable people will better
understand what you are bringing to the table.
Your last couple of posts (to me and Rodney) have indicated that you realize
there are programs where your secondary concerns are being addressed
(satisfaction of a structured curriculum and the teaching of musical and even
extramusical elements within the marching activity). As an educator who is
committed to student enrichment I appreciate that acknowledgement. I think we
can agree there are places where such enrichment is taking place (even within
the marching activity) and places where it is not. We can further agree that
places without a balanced, well-aligned curriculum are in need of guidance.
I like your comment about music educators spending money and resources during
concert season. Though our program has not hired a full time consultant as you
suggested we've tried to balance resources spent on the marching production
with resources spent on concert enrichment. In the last 3 years each concert
band at the school has spent time under the baton of James Keene, Gary Greene,
John Whitwell, Dr. Harry Begian and David Maslanka, as well as a host of
in-state conductors and educators.
John Pollard
L.D. Bell High School
<< Subject: Re: Mark Higginbotham!
From: "Forest E. Aten Jr." fores...@home.com
Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 10:34 AM
Message-id: <8euQ6.9188$qs3.3...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com>
Forest E. Aten Jr.
Where were you two years ago?
I've had many very concerned music educators contact me and I have had long
and productive email dialogs. I continue these dialogs with several
directors. I have a great deal of respect for these men and women.
Several are always asking me why so confrontational? I tried for many years
to do it the "other way". The conversations were always ending with a band
director saying, "yah, right" or "but it's they way it's always been
done"...."that won't work for ME". When the abuse started to impact my
daughter directly, I finally was in a position to make my points....as did
over 90 kids that quit at Pearce during my daughters sophomore year. They
did as you posted earlier, "voted with their feet". They had enough abuse
and demonstrated (very important word) their commitment to a more moderate
marching band position, as I have with my confrontational vent. NO MORE
MARCHING BAND! These kids were persecuted. Charged with monikers like,
quitter, lazy, stupid, selfish. I was charged with "not caring about my
daughter", "destroyer of the band program" or "you don't want these kids to
have so much time they will get in trouble do you?". People in power made
claims that I had been "fired" from teaching, was a child molester...that my
battle with Pearce was a personal vendetta against any number of people. All
news to me and typical of the indoctrination and very characteristic with
the disinformation that went along with the Pearce band program. It fell to
a new low when a 38 caliber bullet was fired through the window of one of
the "concerned band parent's" (opposition parent) home.
It was time to expose the abuse. Abuse of power, money, kids, parents....and
the music educational system. Especially at Pearce High School....and the
RISD.
Your willingness to discuss the issues so frankly lends another slant to the
discussion; one with more virtue. I know that Rodney and others take a great
deal of pride in their overall program and do not take well to
generalizations that might impact their BALANCED program, especially in a
negative way. The fact is, many, many band directors do abuse the kids
through the system currently in place. I don't worry about the good
programs....I worry about the abusive programs like those at Pearce or how
about the Denton High band director in the news of late? Voices like yours,
Rodney's and others that form a more reasonable, moderate and balanced brand
of music education need to be heard more often. While I have dialogs with
moderate and in most cases excellent music educators going on behind the
scenes very few of these men and women take a stand when they see abuse
around them. One of the easiest and more predictable ways to ensure a good
outcome for band (music) students, is to force music educators to follow the
curriculum. This would help remove the potential for directors with a
destructive, malicious self serving vent, heaping their abuse on the kids.
I am not the only public school music educator that feels the way I do. I do
know this.
Many band directors, orchestra directors, choral directors, private
teachers....and a few hundred thousand regular classroom teachers...not to
say anything about what many parents and students (usually the huge silent
voice of those kids that have already quit band), want(ed) moderation when
it came to marching.
Thanks for the comments and the courage to post.....
Respectfully,
Forest Aten
"Glide825" <glid...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010528171741...@ng-fv1.aol.com...
Adrian Martinez
Bell show (El Cid, Ben Hur) and Westlake's Show (Pictures at an Exhibition) began in the
exact same way. Both were arranged by Higginbotham. I think that is a good
representation of the level of creativity that Higginbotham sells to bands. Everything he
writes sounds the same. It's choppy and not nearly as musical as those who I would say
are the best in the game, like Jay Bocook for example. Bocook arranged The Wind and the
Lion for Lassiter High School in 98. Check it out. I think you will agree, although you
might not say it outloud, that Higginbotham is not exactly the best, or close to the best.
Glenn Fugett wrote:
> David Allen <kda...@texas.net> wrote in message news:<3B07E488...@texas.net>...
> > Hmm, ask around and find out which bands he got FIRED from just recently -
> > maybe he was late with his month payment - just like everything else he does.
> >
> > CEXE SEA wrote:
> >
> > > I want to get in contact with Mr. Higginbotham. His website is not up and
> > > working anymore. If someone could provide an email address or some way of
> > > getting in contact with him that would be great.
>
> Mr. Allen,
> Mr. Higginbotham been arranging for our program for a number of
> years. During that time, he has played a huge part in the development
> of our marching band and many others throughout the country.
> Very few arrangers in this activity are also truly composers.
> Mark is an A.S.C.A.P. composer who has won several awards including
> the Bernstein Fellowship. He has tremendous knowledge of classical
> literature and movie soundtracks. His knowledge and skill regarding
> music technology is unmatched (his midi recordings are by far the best
> I have heard). He is very creative and one of the smartest people I
> have ever met. Most of the schools he has written for have also used
> him to program their shows! These are the things that have enabled
> Mark Higginbotham to become the most sought after and successful
> arranger/composer in our activity today.
> Mark has maintained long lasting relationships with many
> band programs. As you know, this is not very common in pageantry. He
> has done this by providing a superior product and by servicing the
> groups through communication and clinics. It is not a coincidence
> that most of the BOA Texas Regional Champions and Texas State
> Champions in the last 8 years have performed Higginbotham
> arrangements/compositions. If indeed there are schools that have
> chosen not to continue using his services, I'm sure there are many
> other great programs throughout the country that would love to take
> their places.
> Have a good summer and good luck next year.
>
> Glenn Fugett
Klausimus Maximus
Two shows you have picked out of scores.
KM
"Adrian Martinez" <sax_s...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3B12D7F8...@hotmail.com...
J K Nitsch
that were almost identical as well . . I'm not naming names . . but it sure was
interesting . . especially since they were both at the state marching contest
this fall . . .
JKN
Klausimus Maximus
it's a matter of poor judging at times, not poor writing.
But what do I know, I am not a professional composer. (Yet)
KM
"J K Nitsch" <jkni...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010528224009...@ng-mo1.aol.com...
Eric Senzig
that both the L.D.
> Bell show (El Cid, Ben Hur) and Westlake's Show (Pictures at an
Exhibition) began in the
> exact same way. Both were arranged by Higginbotham. I think that is a
good
> representation of the level of creativity that Higginbotham sells to
bands. Everything he
> writes sounds the same. It's choppy and not nearly as musical as those
who I would say
> are the best in the game, like Jay Bocook for example. Bocook arranged
The Wind and the
> Lion for Lassiter High School in 98. Check it out. I think you will
agree, although you
> might not say it outloud, that Higginbotham is not exactly the best, or
close to the best.
Two points:
1. It is quite conceivable that directors at different schools would be
interested in using the same music, especially if it is arranged by such a
"name brand" as Mr. Higginbotham.
2. All arrangers have their good days and their bad days ... their good
shows and their bad shows. I speak from experience. I am sure Mr.
Higginbotham has his duds every now and then ... so have I. He has also
written some of the most brilliant shows I have ever heard (witness Berkner
in the last 3 years for example). As someone in the same profession, I can
say without question that Mr. Higginbotham is one of the best in the
business.
Eric Senzig
Ft. Worth, TX
Glide825
Two years ago I was aware of this "battle" but stayed away from the topic
because it routinely falls into the trenches and mucks about a bit. I think
I've learned to filter out the confrontational tone (which is certainly
present) in posts on both sides of the issue now.
It's unfortunate that your experience in RISD was so distasteful, since that
district has long been considered one of the best in the state at teaching
life-lessons through music. It's even more unfortunate that potently
passionate personalities polarized "players" in the Pearce drama (say that
three times fast). I know, passably well, several of the educators who played
Locke to your Demosthenes and find them every bit as passionate and
well-intentioned as you - albeit in the scope of their own beliefs. The
stories from both sides of the issue represent a colossal failure of respectful
communication which gave way to lobbying, topical promotion and (in some
instances) vehemently imposed self-preservation. Stories such as the bullet,
the castigation and rumormongering and (on the other side) the canvassing,
prodigous watchdogging and ensuing litigation are all indicitave of extreme
passions and the unfortunate level of this "communication breakdown." I hope
you will respect my desire not to discuss "right" or "wrong" because I respect
people on both sides of the argument. It pains me to see malicious slings and
arrows hurled when both sets of people have their virtues.
Next (on soapbox): Thank you for the kind words regarding my concept of
balanced music education. I believe you would find most educators do share the
same vision. However, the nature of, and stress upon, competition in this
state sometimes seem to preclude an objective and balanced educational view
while we are "at the grindstone." I've learned that one must step back to see
the total picture and make adjustments. For instance - In "marching season"
are we motivated by satisfying a set of values imposed by those who judge the
shows, or are we in the business of providing education, enjoyment and
enrichment for the students and community-at-large, while teaching music
fundamentals (as outlined in previous posts) to the best of our ability in this
outdoor environs?
In some cases it seems that the former is the driving force. A younger version
of me thought that way until a mentor demonstrated the effectiveness of
concentrating on the integrity and enjoyment of the process, rather than
worrying about results. I now maintain that this "enjoyable" process is vital
if we want to keep the activity wholesome: Make sure the students enjoy what
they are being taught. It seems so basic, but can get lost in the competitive
shuffle.
This view, I think, would be a great "first step" towards a healthier (if not
antiseptically-structured) curriculum: Viewing marching season as a vehicle
for student and community enjoyment. Design the production, the curriculum and
the schedule with this in mind. When students, parents, student body and
community are excited about "band" there is a synergy created which promotes
pride and enthusiasm. Enthusiasm and excitement (as I'm sure you would agree)
are the most powerful intrinsic motivators. And when students bring intrinsic
energy and effort to the process focus is sharp, rehearsal time is maximized
and the "results" take care of themselves.
John Pollard
L.D. Bell High School
<< Subject: Re: Mark Higginbotham!
From: "Forest E. Aten Jr." fores...@home.com
Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 5:04 PM
Message-id: <9YzQ6.11137$qs3.4...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com>
Glide825
Since Mark writes for the bands finishing 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 in the "Music
Effect" caption at BOA Houston this year I suspect your opinion agrees with the
educated ones.
Curious: I know MH wrote for Westfield when they won the 1998 state
championship. Was he writing for them in 1996 as well?
John Pollard
L.D. Bell High School
<< Subject: Re: Mark Higginbotham!
From: "Eric Senzig" twosh...@home.com
Date: Tue, May 29, 2001 5:50 PM
Message-id: <bJVQ6.9811$aA5....@news1.rdc1.tx.home.com>
dodecap...@yahoo.com
In fact, it was an original composition entitled "Into the Unknown".
Higginbotham has been arranging Westfield's marching music since the
Samuel Barber show of 1995. Hope this helps.
Fibonacci161803
about him. Why? Because he sleeps on a mountain of money....
Budroux2w
>Ron,
>
>You might be surprised.
>
>F. Aten
surprised at what? that many students and parents around the entire country
believe that marching band is an exelent activity and should not be changed. I
admit that I am a bit more limited in the "experence" in marching band than you
are, but i still think it is a great tool to building discipline, and musical
talent. My band experience was outstanding, and I have talked many younger
family members into taking up band, and they love it. (yes they are in
different band programs than i was in.) I feel that i have gone off in a rant,
but so has everyone else on here, but i think it is a good subject and
everyside has a right to it's oppion, but saying that most or all band programs
are abusive, that is a flat out LIE. You have stated that you are trying to
change things, and more power to you, but, the people in the comunities with
outstanding band programs support them, that is one of the many things that
makes a band great, and you cannot stop that.
Jacob
former L.D. Bell band member