Magickal Analysis Please
tracy
warped mood, so I have now been moved to put this out for your
perusal & analysis:
On an art ng, I described a conceptual art "concept" that expressed
my disdain for conceptual art. In other words, I used the visual
rather than words. I embodied the idea in something that could
be tangible. They liked it. I was even mistaken for a famous
British conceptual artist named Tracy Emin, privately, and it took
some effort to convince the guy that I am not her. I asked him
why he liked it, and he did not answer me. But he wanted to know
if I was the "real" Tracy, the one on the short list for the Turner
prize.
Next, I found this article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/arts/newsid_1364000/1364038.stm
And then I found out about one of this Tracy Emin preson's famous
projects, a messed up bed surrounded by condoms on the floor, and
apparently, vindictive angry things written on the quilt.
AS I recall).
So I posted another description of yet another possible conceptual
art piece:
Basically, I would make many copies of that article, cover a quilt
(neatly on a bed) with them, then also cut out the little chart in
the article that shows the percentage of people in Britian who
think that *no one* should win the Turner prize because none of
the candidates are any good, and attach the charts to arrows (one
chart per arrow), and then shoot the arrows into the bed with a bow,
naturally. Purpose: Express my disdain for conceptual art again,
also the disdain of 2/3rds of the British population. That would be
the finished piece: the bed shot with arrows. They liked it again.
I asked again why they liked it, and got no response. Just eagerness
to see it done. Sheesh!
Now they hate criticism against modern or conceptual art, but they
liked this. So the meaning of my concept is apparently not what
they are considering at all.
What questions does this bring up? What even should be considered?
I am stumped. Why would they like it, but not the idea behind it?
It certainly doesn't involve any artistic ability whatsoever.
I really don't get it. Magickal Analysis please!
Tracy, the un-Emin, the anti-Dada, The Frustrated Beetle
PS a shaman-type friend of mine (non-cyber) thinks
its because our culture is so spiritually starved
that they hunger to find it (the spiritual) even in
tiny shreds in modern art. What do you think?????
Dagoril
"tracy" <tra...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:e0458ec1.01111...@posting.google.com...
ANALYSIS:
Those people are stupid.
Modern Art is stupid.
Make your bed and lie in it, don't shoot it full of arrows ;)
--Dag
And 98% of the Miss Cleo staff would agree!
tra...@pipeline.com
No not my bed
Martin Swain
> warped mood, so I have now been moved to put this out for your
> perusal & analysis:
>
> On an art ng, I described a conceptual art "concept" that expressed
> my disdain for conceptual art. In other words, I used the visual
> rather than words. I embodied the idea in something that could
> be tangible. They liked it. I was even mistaken for a famous
> British conceptual artist named Tracy Emin, privately, and it took
> some effort to convince the guy that I am not her. I asked him
> why he liked it, and he did not answer me. But he wanted to know
> if I was the "real" Tracy, the one on the short list for the Turner
> prize.
>
> Next, I found this article:
>
>
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/arts/newsid_1364000/1364038.s
tm
That guy looks like a pompous goon. The art exhibits looks pretty cool,
and I notice most of the artists are quite well established (older).
Here's one for you:
http://www.absolutearts.com/artsnews/2001/08/16/29001.html
>
> And then I found out about one of this Tracy Emin preson's famous
> projects, a messed up bed surrounded by condoms on the floor, and
> apparently, vindictive angry things written on the quilt.
> AS I recall).
A lot of people's early works aren't all that. OTOH, people concerned,
i.e. the buying public, will promote the best of the new generation, right?
Otherwise we wouldn't have any well established artists. In a competetive
business environment bad artists don't last too long. What was the
name of that awful rap group, 2LiveCrew?
> So I posted another description of yet another possible conceptual
> art piece:
>
> Basically, I would make many copies of that article, cover a quilt
> (neatly on a bed) with them, then also cut out the little chart in
> the article that shows the percentage of people in Britian who
> think that *no one* should win the Turner prize because none of
> the candidates are any good, and attach the charts to arrows (one
> chart per arrow), and then shoot the arrows into the bed with a bow,
> naturally. Purpose: Express my disdain for conceptual art again,
> also the disdain of 2/3rds of the British population. That would be
> the finished piece: the bed shot with arrows. They liked it again.
> I asked again why they liked it, and got no response. Just eagerness
> to see it done. Sheesh!
>
> Now they hate criticism against modern or conceptual art, but they
> liked this. So the meaning of my concept is apparently not what
> they are considering at all.
>
> What questions does this bring up? What even should be considered?
> I am stumped. Why would they like it, but not the idea behind it?
> It certainly doesn't involve any artistic ability whatsoever.
> I really don't get it. Magickal Analysis please!
Perhaps they are just being nice, trying to encourage you.
Maybe they're just mean, and are only interested in the possibility
of stirring up some conflict.
>
> Tracy, the un-Emin, the anti-Dada, The Frustrated Beetle
>
>
> PS a shaman-type friend of mine (non-cyber) thinks
> its because our culture is so spiritually starved
> that they hunger to find it (the spiritual) even in
> tiny shreds in modern art. What do you think?????
I think that in a sense, art is spirituality. It shows us how we can
be more. And I don't agree that we're particularily starved.
Cheers
Martin
mika
thanks for the story.
all i can think of is that scene at the end of "Pecker" when one of the artsy
patrons yells out "Irony is Dead!"
at the time i thought it was a lame, too-obvious, unneccessary line relating to
the movie plot. on later reflection (and after a few conversations with die-hard
Waters fans who didn't like the movie), i realized it may have been a reference to
all the die-hard Waters fans who he anticipated wouldn't like the movie. people
came to expect a certain 'message' from him, but since that message was expected
now, as opposed to his earlier movies where the message was challenging to the
'mainstream', it was a good reason to not provide it. and not only did he not
give people what they wanted/expected, he slapped them in the face with the fact
that they weren't getting it and wanted it.
argh. pardon the babble. i think Waters challenges people's comfort level, and
with Pecker people expected a much darker movie like most of his others. i think
he was being ironic by giving us a happy-ending fairy tale type movie, playing off
our expectations. and people didn't like the movie cause it wasn't what they
wanted from him, so he was right when he said 'irony is dead', he knew, he
anticipated the reactions. or, i could be reading too much into the line.
i don't know much about conceptual art, but it sounds like people have certain
expectations, and you presented them with something that follows the format of
their expectations, so the actual content and meaning is almost irrelevant.
eventually, just about every underground movement becomes part of the mainstream,
so becomes fast food for the robot mind.
mika
David Cantu
Art in all is like God in all.
Once I wrote several concept art pieces that were performed by and around my
band Turmoil in the Toybox. The first was done for a Christmas show. We
had Mary, dressed in white, rolled out on a gurney and performed an abortion
on her, with copious amounts of Rosko(TM) Blood. We then took the divine
fetus and tied it to a Christmas tree with barbed wire and Christmas lights.
A few people were so upset they rushed the stage to kick over the poor Jesus
Fetus!
Wonder what we were trying to communicate?
That was the first of our "lets piss off the audience" performances. By the
end we were enacting Satanic Masses, complete with dildo wielding nymphos.
Ah, the good ol' days of youthful evil.
Now, where Did I put the remains of Jesus Fetus?
Tracy, you would most definitely Not like most of my music;-)
Jason
heart. The result: blood spilt to feed the Pelican's chicks.
Thou Art That. Creators Create Art which life mimics, and
forgive!, Brits only care what Art should mean to the broker;
and neglect the Art that Creates Art. How many relics exist in
London anyway. Rhetorical.
<tra...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:3bf30e6e...@news.lvcablemodem.com...
tra...@pipeline.com
>> So I posted another description of yet another possible conceptual
>> art piece:
>>
>> Basically, I would make many copies of that article, cover a quilt
>> (neatly on a bed) with them, then also cut out the little chart in
>> the article that shows the percentage of people in Britian who
>> think that *no one* should win the Turner prize because none of
>> the candidates are any good, and attach the charts to arrows (one
>> PS a shaman-type friend of mine (non-cyber) thinks
>> its because our culture is so spiritually starved
>> that they hunger to find it (the spiritual) even in
>> tiny shreds in modern art. What do you think?????
>
>Art in all is like God in all.
>Once I wrote several concept art pieces that were performed by and around my
>band Turmoil in the Toybox. The first was done for a Christmas show. We
>had Mary, dressed in white, rolled out on a gurney and performed an abortion
>on her, with copious amounts of Rosko(TM) Blood. We then took the divine
>fetus and tied it to a Christmas tree with barbed wire and Christmas lights.
>A few people were so upset they rushed the stage to kick over the poor Jesus
>Fetus!
>Wonder what we were trying to communicate?
>That was the first of our "lets piss off the audience" performances. By the
>end we were enacting Satanic Masses, complete with dildo wielding nymphos.
>Ah, the good ol' days of youthful evil.
>Now, where Did I put the remains of Jesus Fetus?
>Tracy, you would most definitely Not like most of my music;-)
Well, I don't mind the "let's piss off the audience/mainstream" thing
so much, as tossing out technique along with it. I would require
technique as well as having something to say. I have done the
"let's piss off the audience/mainstream" thing too....my first poems
upset a friend of mine somuch I had to buy him some nice candles
to make him feel better. heh....elitist :)
Love,
Tracy
tra...@pipeline.com
>hey tracy,
>
>thanks for the story.
you're welcome :)
>
>all i can think of is that scene at the end of "Pecker" when one of the artsy
>patrons yells out "Irony is Dead!"
>
>at the time i thought it was a lame, too-obvious, unneccessary line relating to
>the movie plot. on later reflection (and after a few conversations with die-hard
>Waters fans who didn't like the movie), i realized it may have been a reference to
>all the die-hard Waters fans who he anticipated wouldn't like the movie. people
>came to expect a certain 'message' from him, but since that message was expected
>now, as opposed to his earlier movies where the message was challenging to the
>'mainstream', it was a good reason to not provide it. and not only did he not
>give people what they wanted/expected, he slapped them in the face with the fact
>that they weren't getting it and wanted it.
>
>argh. pardon the babble.
That wasn't.
> i think Waters challenges people's comfort level, and
>with Pecker people expected a much darker movie like most of his others. i think
>he was being ironic by giving us a happy-ending fairy tale type movie, playing off
>our expectations. and people didn't like the movie cause it wasn't what they
>wanted from him, so he was right when he said 'irony is dead', he knew, he
>anticipated the reactions. or, i could be reading too much into the line.
>
>i don't know much about conceptual art, but it sounds like people have certain
>expectations, and you presented them with something that follows the format of
>their expectations, so the actual content and meaning is almost irrelevant.
>eventually, just about every underground movement becomes part of the mainstream,
>so becomes fast food for the robot mind.
You know, *that's* what it is! I was thinking there might be something more
esoteric to it, I was thinking: What is it about art that goes beyond conscious
thinking and gets more easily to acceptance, but wow, it's just simple
sheepdom. arggh.
Yes That's exactly it! I put it in the format of their expectations. Really,
Í'm even more disappointed. The clay feet are mud.
Tracy
Tris
>
> PS a shaman-type friend of mine (non-cyber) thinks
> its because our culture is so spiritually starved
> that they hunger to find it (the spiritual) even in
> tiny shreds in modern art. What do you think?????
There was a highly amusing episode in the UK the other week when a cleaner
saw a pile of rubbish on the floor (in a shop window, I think), and - doing
his job - cleaned it all up. It was, of course, a piece by Damien Hirst.
Jason
Wicked. No, not this again! :)
Asiya
news:3bf35415...@news.lvcablemodem.com...
>
> You know, *that's* what it is! I was thinking there might be something
more
> esoteric to it, I was thinking: What is it about art that goes beyond
conscious
> thinking and gets more easily to acceptance, but wow, it's just simple
> sheepdom. arggh.
I know what you mean, I have done similar things in regards to music to see
if I could irritate people and/or make 'em think. The irritating was fun,
but it's hard to get sheep to think. :)
> Yes That's exactly it! I put it in the format of their expectations.
Really,
> Í'm even more disappointed. The clay feet are mud.
Asiya
**********
www.geocities.com/shadowsofasiya/
Eat the meatballs to email me.
> Tracy
Satyr
<tra...@pipeline.com> wrote:
> Ok, that letter Satyr got from some Cicero follower put me in a warped
> mood,
Oh dear.
Am I the only one who finds this ironic? That a piece of conceptual art
would be accepted for its own sake,while the concept it represents is
summarily rejected?
> Tracy, the un-Emin, the anti-Dada, The Frustrated Beetle
>
>
>
> PS a shaman-type friend of mine (non-cyber) thinks its because our
> culture is so spiritually starved that they hunger to find it (the
> spiritual) even in tiny shreds in modern art. What do you think?????
Heh. I would say they believe they are incapable of surprising
themselves, and search for surprise in the lives and work of others. If
that 'surprise' is called 'spirit', that's ok too.
--
Beetle
tra...@pipeline.com
>Am I the only one who finds this ironic? That a piece of conceptual art
>would be accepted for its own sake,while the concept it represents is
>summarily rejected?
No, I do too. It's very Ironic!
>
>> Tracy, the un-Emin, the anti-Dada, The Frustrated Beetle
>>
>>
>>
>> PS a shaman-type friend of mine (non-cyber) thinks its because our
>> culture is so spiritually starved that they hunger to find it (the
>> spiritual) even in tiny shreds in modern art. What do you think?????
>
>Heh. I would say they believe they are incapable of surprising
>themselves, and search for surprise in the lives and work of others. If
>that 'surprise' is called 'spirit', that's ok too.
Yes, that seems a real good possibility.
Tracy
tra...@pipeline.com
Yes, I heard about that :)> Damien also thought it was very funny.
He "rebuilt" it just as it was before, and the janitor did not get fired.
Tracy
David Cantu
"Asiya" <asiya_...@MEATBALLSmindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9t0cnu$ki5$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
> <tra...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
> news:3bf35415...@news.lvcablemodem.com...
> >
> > You know, *that's* what it is! I was thinking there might be something
> more
> > esoteric to it, I was thinking: What is it about art that goes beyond
> conscious
> > thinking and gets more easily to acceptance, but wow, it's just simple
> > sheepdom. arggh.
>
> I know what you mean, I have done similar things in regards to music to
see
> if I could irritate people and/or make 'em think. The irritating was fun,
> but it's hard to get sheep to think. :)
Shock the monkey, then implant while discombobulated.
Asiya
news:CaaJ7.40306$gu.8...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
>
> "Asiya" <asiya_...@MEATBALLSmindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:9t0cnu$ki5$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
> > <tra...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
> > news:3bf35415...@news.lvcablemodem.com...
> > >
> > > You know, *that's* what it is! I was thinking there might be
something
> > more
> > > esoteric to it, I was thinking: What is it about art that goes beyond
> > conscious
> > > thinking and gets more easily to acceptance, but wow, it's just simple
> > > sheepdom. arggh.
> >
> > I know what you mean, I have done similar things in regards to music to
> see
> > if I could irritate people and/or make 'em think. The irritating was
fun,
> > but it's hard to get sheep to think. :)
>
> Shock the monkey, then implant while discombobulated.
hmm...interesting...ideas...
David Cantu
<tra...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:3bf352df...@news.lvcablemodem.com...
Ok, this is interesting too. I was trained on guitar and into fairly
complex music back in the 70's, but then punk took over and technique was
viewed in a different light. I went into experimental music and an
outgrowth of these two aspects led to bands I was in such as Turmoil in the
Toybox. In that band two members knew something about music and had worked
in standard bands, myself and the bass player. One other ran electronic
sound making gadgets that he only had a small amount of control over. The
two remaining members, the "percussionist" and "vocalist" knew absolutely
nothing about music and were very chaotic in their approach to any
instrument. The results was a music born out of a struggle between chaos
and order. There were times it didn't come off and other times when it
produced things that could not have been written in any conventional way.
90% of our output was improvisational and could never be repeated. It
happened, got captured, or not, and we were on to the next experiment. By
adding the visual/political elements in live performance we were able to
create a milieu in which our musical struggle made sense and caused people
to react.
>
> Love,
>
> Tracy
>
>
tracy
$
> Ok, this is interesting too. I was trained on guitar and into fairly
> complex music back in the 70's, but then punk took over and technique was
> viewed in a different light. I went into experimental music and an
> outgrowth of these two aspects led to bands I was in such as Turmoil in the
> Toybox. In that band two members knew something about music and had worked
> in standard bands, myself and the bass player. One other ran electronic
> sound making gadgets that he only had a small amount of control over. The
> two remaining members, the "percussionist" and "vocalist" knew absolutely
> nothing about music and were very chaotic in their approach to any
> instrument. The results was a music born out of a struggle between chaos
> and order. There were times it didn't come off and other times when it
> produced things that could not have been written in any conventional way.
> 90% of our output was improvisational and could never be repeated. It
> happened, got captured, or not, and we were on to the next experiment. By
> adding the visual/political elements in live performance we were able to
> create a milieu in which our musical struggle made sense and caused people
> to react.
It's been said that music and literature did not undergo the same
trashing
of technique as art because the audience has to spend more than 2
seconds
with the results (don't ask me who).
I would have asked you if the lead singer who did not know music could
carry a tune, though, could he pick a note even, but then I recalled
Bob Dylan. His lyrics are good though.
Jazz musicians who improvise have actually a lot more training than is
the average. It is harder, and requires a higher degree of musical
skill.
As I understand it, they are actually the most impressive of
musicians,
on those terms. They have to know their "shit" inside and out, and
they have to know a lot more of it.
So we could talk about improvisation, let's dance, let's do the
baton twirling fire breathing astral sword circumambulation dance.
Ok I'm being weird :)
tra...@pipeline.com
>Ok, this is interesting too. I was trained on guitar and into fairly
>complex music back in the 70's, but then punk took over and technique was
>viewed in a different light. I went into experimental music and an
>outgrowth of these two aspects led to bands I was in such as Turmoil in the
>Toybox. In that band two members knew something about music and had worked
>in standard bands, myself and the bass player. One other ran electronic
>sound making gadgets that he only had a small amount of control over. The
>two remaining members, the "percussionist" and "vocalist" knew absolutely
>nothing about music and were very chaotic in their approach to any
>instrument. The results was a music born out of a struggle between chaos
>and order. There were times it didn't come off and other times when it
>produced things that could not have been written in any conventional way.
>90% of our output was improvisational and could never be repeated. It
>happened, got captured, or not, and we were on to the next experiment. By
>adding the visual/political elements in live performance we were able to
>create a milieu in which our musical struggle made sense and caused people
>to react.
Ok part 2!
When you do music, or compose music, what part of your mind
do you feel you are accessing? Do you think it's the subconscious
(as if we really know what that is), or do you feel it's a part of the
Higher Mind, i.e., Divinity?
Love,
Tracy
Blazin' Tommy D.
bitch is identical to Hitler's
As for the rest of it I think that any depiction that causes one to
contemplate some aspect of life has value
I don't really care what medium it's in
The only connection with the template of Magick is that once the thing is
conceptualized, it already exists, it is then only a matter of you
manifesting it, the degree to which this is true to your concept is a
matter of execution, but as long as the expression is conveyed it's a
success.
Otherwise I don't really know what you're talking about because I'm too
lazy to read and survive largely by intuition. It's sounds as though you're
creating an unusual bed spread and shooting arrows into it, why shouldn't
people like that? If someone has nothing better to do than execute it, you
are willing, and people find it interesting, you contribute something of
value and worth to your immediate society. Put this Stoppard bloke between
the sheets, flash a picture and have it accompany the magazine article.
There you could sell it and call it art at the same time
This is how art is repressed by Fascist nazi bastards, people are afraid to
express themselves, but those that have balls have success it only depends
upon the standard you use to measure it. If the execution is bad it shows
the degree of repression and demand and therefore the need - which of
course might also be censored too.
BTD
tracy <tra...@pipeline.com> wrote in article
<e0458ec1.01111...@posting.google.com>...
Blazin' Tommy D.
BobDylan is apt at tonal inflection ( I think that's the right term)
There are types of folk music that are like chants
that aspect is more important than a particular melody
Especially when you're playing acoustic guitar
Imagine being at a fair ground and you hear music far away
Either it's some Irish guy doing some sweet melody which you barely hear
Or there is a distinctive sound that draws you to it - kind of like a
barker (another lost art - Mick Jagger has good pipes for this:)
People try to do the blues who really don't know blues and it doesn't sound
right although they think they're doing great. There is the difference
between someone that survives likes Bob Dylan, Neil Young, Pete Seger as
opposed to the numerous 70s corporate rock groups (I saw a special on VH-1
about this last night) So did you read the interview?
CI
tracy <tra...@pipeline.com> wrote in article
<e0458ec1.01111...@posting.google.com>...
> "David Cantu" <dc...@houston.rr.com> wrote in message news:<GlaJ7.40308
>
> $
> > Ok, this is interesting too. I was trained on guitar and into fairly
> > complex music back in the 70's, but then punk took over and technique
was
> > viewed in a different light.
BTD: The guy that plays lead guitar for "The Clash" on "Give 'un Enough
Rope" was phenomenal. Very tasteful. I particularly like "Stay Free" -
played as loud as possible of course.
. The results was a music born out of a struggle between chaos
> > and order. There were times it didn't come off and other times when it
> > produced things that could not have been written in any conventional
way.
> > 90% of our output was improvisational and could never be repeated. It
> > happened, got captured, or not, and we were on to the next experiment.
By
> > adding the visual/political elements in live performance we were able
to
> > create a milieu in which our musical struggle made sense and caused
people
> > to react.
BTD: with outer lettuce leaves, heels of bread, turnips tops, &c:)
>
> It's been said that music and literature did not undergo the same
> trashing
> of technique as art because the audience has to spend more than 2
> seconds
> with the results (don't ask me who).
BTD: This is true of dance, particular those forms as classical where the
movements are the chief focus as opposed to the horrible choreography used
in many contemporary video productions.
>
> I would have asked you if the lead singer who did not know music could
> carry a tune, though, could he pick a note even, but then I recalled
> Bob Dylan. His lyrics are good though.
BTD: See above.
>
> Jazz musicians who improvise have actually a lot more training than is
> the average. It is harder, and requires a higher degree of musical
> skill.
> As I understand it, they are actually the most impressive of
> musicians,
> on those terms. They have to know their "shit" inside and out, and
> they have to know a lot more of it.
BTD: This is true.
>
> So we could talk about improvisation, let's dance, let's do the
> baton twirling fire breathing astral sword circumambulation dance.
>
> Ok I'm being weird :)
BTD: Actually II find it quite refreshing:)
>
Blazin' Tommy D.
It really depends on what sort of music you're doing
The sort of rhythmic music Chuck Berry does is heavy and earthy, whereas
something written for ballet, although employing beats for dancing, is
light and subtle yet both invoke the irresistible urge to dance
CI
tra...@pipeline.com wrote in article
<3bf5ba2f...@news.lvcablemodem.com>...
>
> When you do music, or compose music, what part of your mind
> do you feel you are accessing? Do you think it's the subconscious
> (as if we really know what that is), or do you feel it's a part of the
> Higher Mind, i.e., Divinity?
BTD: A person composes a piece TO APPEAL TO this higher spirit or perhaps
larger self and opposed to the smaller self. The inspiration fills the
framework of knowledge and you ant to share it with your fellow people. If
you're a composer that's your medium
>
> Love,
>
> Tracy
>
>
>
Martin Swain
> lazy to read and survive largely by intuition. It's sounds as though
you're
> creating an unusual bed spread and shooting arrows into it, why shouldn't
> people like that? If someone has nothing better to do than execute it, you
> are willing, and people find it interesting, you contribute something of
> value and worth to your immediate society. Put this Stoppard bloke between
> the sheets, flash a picture and have it accompany the magazine article.
> There you could sell it and call it art at the same time
<snip>
I like that one better. I'ld buy it.
tra...@pipeline.com
Do you like it better because you don't like Tom Stoppard's ideas?
The thing is, you could make it yourself. It wouldn't be hard.
Tracy
tra...@pipeline.com
On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 12:08:30 GMT, "Blazin' Tommy D." <td...@stny.rr.com> wrote:
>Obviously this Tom Stoppard ( if he's a real person) is a fascist. His
>bitch is identical to Hitler's
He's a very famous writer and playwright in England.
>As for the rest of it I think that any depiction that causes one to
>contemplate some aspect of life has value
>I don't really care what medium it's in
>The only connection with the template of Magick is that once the thing is
>conceptualized, it already exists, it is then only a matter of you
>manifesting it, the degree to which this is true to your concept is a
>matter of execution, but as long as the expression is conveyed it's a
>success.
>Otherwise I don't really know what you're talking about because I'm too
>lazy to read and survive largely by intuition. It's sounds as though you're
>creating an unusual bed spread and shooting arrows into it, why shouldn't
>people like that? If someone has nothing better to do than execute it, you
>are willing, and people find it interesting, you contribute something of
>value and worth to your immediate society. Put this Stoppard bloke between
>the sheets, flash a picture and have it accompany the magazine article.
>There you could sell it and call it art at the same time
>This is how art is repressed by Fascist nazi bastards, people are afraid to
>express themselves, but those that have balls have success it only depends
>upon the standard you use to measure it. If the execution is bad it shows
>the degree of repression and demand and therefore the need - which of
>course might also be censored too.
>BTD
well I don't think censorship is such a problem for conceptual art
these days......
hmm, here's an idea for ballet:
What if you, BTD, did a ballet performance where you stand
on a stage, squarely facing the audience. With no music
or supporting dancers, you standfor 2 minutes. Then, you
take a diagonal step to the right. Then stand for 2 mintes.
You take a backward step. Stand for 2 minutes.
Continue in this way for the whole performance (direction
of remaining steps to be left up to you, by all means).
The audience is supposed to be concerning themselves
with your mental state as you do this. You could be doing
something magickal or shamanistic, or you could be
contemplating some theories of psychology. Maybe
both. The audience doesn't know for sure, and they
have to find out by paying attention to your interview
by a critic after the performance. Maybe you will let
them know, maybe you won't. No, they can only
guess that you were because your friends saw some
books on magick in your house. Maybe the critics
will then write huge books about whether or not
you were doing anything magickal or shamanistic.
Anybody could have done that performance, but
you have a ballet outfit, and ballet training, and
ballet credentials.
This is my ananlogy for modern art. I have been
trying to figure it out for some time, and have learned
a lot along the way. It's been interesting.
Personally, I'd rather see some ballet.
But I am still interested in exploring their understanding
of the occult and of psychology.
Tracy
Martin Swain
<tra...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:3bf6b18d...@news.lvcablemodem.com...
No, I like it better because of the article with his picture, and
faking it digitally wouldn't make it. It would need to be a real
pic, in *the* bed, and he would have to be alive and cooperating.
Various other details would have to be, of course, perfect in order
to *make it* as art.
Sure I could do that. Might take some doing, I guess, but what
the heck. I'll get back to you.
I have experienced some art first hand, and it always boggles.
Peace,
Martin
>
>
>
Martin Swain
<tra...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:3bf6b25a...@news.lvcablemodem.com...
>
>
> On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 12:08:30 GMT, "Blazin' Tommy D." <td...@stny.rr.com>
wrote:
>
> >Obviously this Tom Stoppard ( if he's a real person) is a fascist. His
> >bitch is identical to Hitler's
>
> He's a very famous writer and playwright in England.
Meaning appreciated in a mass media? Sells lots of stuff?
Like some kind of, I dunno, pop art?
Ah. Well, allow me then. In order to understand the more
abstract forms of expression, one should first look at the
impressionists. For instance, Picasso is said to have painted
people *as they saw themselves*. Picasso's paintings made
no sense to me until I looked at them that way.
There is also the general bell curve kind of thing
to consider. What is new and truly cool will not be appreciated
by a mass audience. Of course this 'truth' sucks in a lot of wannabes
and creates endless opportunities for hucksters and other ripoff artists.
Hope that clears things up a little?
tra...@pipeline.com
>
><tra...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
>news:3bf6b25a...@news.lvcablemodem.com...
>> He's a very famous writer and playwright in England.
>
>Meaning appreciated in a mass media? Sells lots of stuff?
>Like some kind of, I dunno, pop art?
heh.
>Ah. Well, allow me then. In order to understand the more
>abstract forms of expression, one should first look at the
>impressionists. For instance, Picasso is said to have painted
>people *as they saw themselves*. Picasso's paintings made
>no sense to me until I looked at them that way.
Exscuuuse me??? Picasso was not an impressionist,
never was, not nohow.
And it takes a lot more than looking at the impressionists
to understand "the more abstract forms of expression".
>
>There is also the general bell curve kind of thing
>to consider. What is new and truly cool will not be appreciated
>by a mass audience. Of course this 'truth' sucks in a lot of wannabes
>and creates endless opportunities for hucksters and other ripoff artists.
>
>Hope that clears things up a little?
heh. Say, I remember it wasn't too long ago that Joel Biroco
made fun of you for not knowing much of anything about modern
art, and I stood up for you. Eh, c'est la vie.
Blazin' Tommy D.
tra...@pipeline.com wrote in article
<3bf6b25a...@news.lvcablemodem.com>...
>
>
> On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 12:08:30 GMT, "Blazin' Tommy D." <td...@stny.rr.com>
wrote:
>
> >Obviously this Tom Stoppard ( if he's a real person) is a fascist. His
> >bitch is identical to Hitler's
>
> He's a very famous writer and playwright in England.
>
BTD: Nazis had such collaborators too. Why should he care? He's famous?
Rich? He must be after attention or maybe he's running for Parliament there
as here they're referred to as . . .hrm . . . Conservatives.
>
> hmm, here's an idea for ballet:
>
> What if you, BTD, did a ballet performance where you stand
> on a stage, squarely facing the audience.
BTD: En face
With no music
> or supporting dancers, you standfor 2 minutes. Then, you
> take a diagonal step to the right. Then stand for 2 mintes.
> You take a backward step. Stand for 2 minutes.
> Continue in this way for the whole performance (direction
> of remaining steps to be left up to you, by all means).
>
> The audience is supposed to be concerning themselves
> with your mental state as you do this.
BTD: I doubt it. They'd be concerned thus: men - thinking about sucking and
maulling me, women - I wonder what his cock looks like hard, Nazis - he
must be an Aryan
2 mins is short if you allow me to use standard positions of the feet and
poses or even with port de bras and of course exit with a variation and a
large leap:)
You could be doing
> something magickal or shamanistic, or you could be
> contemplating some theories of psychology. Maybe
> both. The audience doesn't know for sure, and they
> have to find out by paying attention to your interview
> by a critic after the performance.
BTD: When you dance you either know the steps and timing by heart, in which
case you don't think at all, you experience something akin to a full body
orgasm followed by an immense dopamine rush or else you count the beats. If
you have to think about them you get booed. Barysnikov did a modern ballet
solo to the amplified sound of his pulse. I think it was longer than 2
mins. A woman I danced with in the first company I was in choreographed an
abstract solo piece to music by John Cage where she wore a full body tight
(including headpiece, that looked like the body's nervous system). The
stage was black with a single spotlight. It was very unsettling as
intended. Trish Brown does interesting modern work. Pick up an issue of
"Dance Magazine" and check the reviews there's usually something going on
in NYC most of the time except for mid summer.
Maybe you will let
> them know, maybe you won't. No, they can only
> guess that you were because your friends saw some
> books on magick in your house. Maybe the critics
> will then write huge books about whether or not
> you were doing anything magickal or shamanistic.
BTD: I guess the analogy doesn't work for dance but your words are
nonetheless inspiring and sparked a brief exchange. To me anything that
does that is positive. If i have money I'll pay for it. Lots of people have
so much money they really don't have anything better to do with it but they
don't do as thou wilt because they're rendered fearful that the Gestapo is
watching and they'd be seen as contributing to "the wrong cause" - that's
what guys like this Stppard does - you know like Woodrow Wilson invading
Nicaragua because they voted for the wrong people.
>
> Anybody could have done that performance, but
> you have a ballet outfit, and ballet training, and
> ballet credentials.
BTD: Not the way I described it. No. A properly trained dancer is a work of
art. Our body is our instrument.
>
> This is my ananlogy for modern art. I have been
> trying to figure it out for some time, and have learned
> a lot along the way. It's been interesting.
>
> Personally, I'd rather see some ballet.
BTD: That's a good point, but maybe you should see other styles because
you'll definitely find something different in modern dance. Whether you'll
like it or not is another matter.
As for painting, color is very important.
Ballanchine is usually credited with the neo-classical style. A sort of
exaggerated technique transcending the romantic style and dependent upon
music, dancer and costume with minimal props. Paris Opera ballet (don't
know who's directing now:0) but Roland Petit (who was also a wonderful
dancer) choreographed interesting works also Maurice Bejart
There are lots of different styles within the forms classical (Swan Lake)
Neoclassical (Ballanchine) and modern - Martha Graham, Mark Morris, Trish
Brown, Paul Taylor - check it out:)
>
> But I am still interested in exploring their understanding
> of the occult and of psychology.
BTD: Buy Jean Cocteau's "Orphic Trilogy" DVD set (CD Universe). It's a
little expensive but you'll thank me for doing so. I don't know anything
about psychology except someone once explained to me what they referred to
as "reverse psychology" and I said "Oh, the schtick where the guy
frantically paces back and forth in front of Western Union, you ask him
why, he says he's waiting for his brother to wire him money and he hasn't
had anything to eat all day"?
>
> Tracy
BTD:)
tra...@pipeline.com
>I'd be happy to do this nude. And expect several standing ovations
>
>tra...@pipeline.com wrote in article
><3bf6b25a...@news.lvcablemodem.com>...
>
>BTD: Nazis had such collaborators too. Why should he care? He's famous?
>Rich? He must be after attention or maybe he's running for Parliament there
>as here they're referred to as . . .hrm . . . Conservatives.
What about the 2/3 of the UK people who don't think anyone
should win the prize? Are they Nazis?
>
>>
>
>> hmm, here's an idea for ballet:
>>
>> What if you, BTD, did a ballet performance where you stand
>> on a stage, squarely facing the audience.
>
>BTD: En face
>
> With no music
>> or supporting dancers, you standfor 2 minutes. Then, you
>> take a diagonal step to the right. Then stand for 2 mintes.
>> You take a backward step. Stand for 2 minutes.
>> Continue in this way for the whole performance (direction
>> of remaining steps to be left up to you, by all means).
>>
>> The audience is supposed to be concerning themselves
>> with your mental state as you do this.
>
>BTD: I doubt it. They'd be concerned thus: men - thinking about sucking and
>maulling me, women - I wonder what his cock looks like hard, Nazis - he
>must be an Aryan
er.
>
>2 mins is short if you allow me to use standard positions of the feet and
>poses or even with port de bras and of course exit with a variation and a
>large leap:)
No, no leaps, no variations. Just standing and stepping. MInimalism!
>
> You could be doing
>> something magickal or shamanistic, or you could be
>> contemplating some theories of psychology. Maybe
>> both. The audience doesn't know for sure, and they
>> have to find out by paying attention to your interview
>> by a critic after the performance.
>
>BTD: When you dance you either know the steps and timing by heart, in which
>case you don't think at all, you experience something akin to a full body
>orgasm followed by an immense dopamine rush or else you count the beats.
Yes, possibly, for actual dancing.
> If you have to think about them you get booed. Barysnikov did a modern ballet
>solo to the amplified sound of his pulse.
But he danced, right?
> I think it was longer than 2
>mins. A woman I danced with in the first company I was in choreographed an
>abstract solo piece to music by John Cage where she wore a full body tight
>(including headpiece, that looked like the body's nervous system). The
>stage was black with a single spotlight. It was very unsettling as
>intended.
But she actually danced, I presume? How long was the peice?
>Trish Brown does interesting modern work. Pick up an issue of
>"Dance Magazine" and check the reviews there's usually something going on
>in NYC most of the time except for mid summer.
>
> Maybe you will let
>> them know, maybe you won't. No, they can only
>> guess that you were because your friends saw some
>> books on magick in your house. Maybe the critics
>> will then write huge books about whether or not
>> you were doing anything magickal or shamanistic.
>
>BTD: I guess the analogy doesn't work for dance but your words are
>nonetheless inspiring and sparked a brief exchange. To me anything that
>does that is positive. If i have money I'll pay for it. Lots of people have
>so much money they really don't have anything better to do with it but they
>don't do as thou wilt because they're rendered fearful that the Gestapo is
>watching and they'd be seen as contributing to "the wrong cause"
Well I don't disagree with you there.
> - that's
>what guys like this Stppard does - you know like Woodrow Wilson invading
>Nicaragua because they voted for the wrong people.
>
>>
>> Anybody could have done that performance, but
>> you have a ballet outfit, and ballet training, and
>> ballet credentials.
>
>BTD: Not the way I described it. No. A properly trained dancer is a work of
>art. Our body is our instrument.
But the way I described, yes, anybody could do it. I did it that
way for a reason :).
>
>>
>> This is my ananlogy for modern art. I have been
>> trying to figure it out for some time, and have learned
>> a lot along the way. It's been interesting.
>>
>> Personally, I'd rather see some ballet.
>
>BTD: That's a good point, but maybe you should see other styles because
>you'll definitely find something different in modern dance. Whether you'll
>like it or not is another matter.
>As for painting, color is very important.
>Ballanchine is usually credited with the neo-classical style. A sort of
>exaggerated technique transcending the romantic style and dependent upon
>music, dancer and costume with minimal props. Paris Opera ballet (don't
>know who's directing now:0) but Roland Petit (who was also a wonderful
>dancer) choreographed interesting works also Maurice Bejart
>There are lots of different styles within the forms classical (Swan Lake)
>Neoclassical (Ballanchine) and modern - Martha Graham, Mark Morris, Trish
>Brown, Paul Taylor - check it out:)
It's been pointed out o me that my "ballet" or merely "dance" has been done
(no specific reference though), like John Cage's "white noise" or
the play which consisted of nothing but two sighs. BUt, and it;s a huge
but: these performances did not not not stand on their own. They were
done as adjuncts to a "real" performance that people paid money to
see. They did not, could not, would not, ever stand on their own,
and people had the common sense to realize it.
Blazin' Tommy D.
certain number of the German populace - I'm being generous in my latter
comment
As for the remainder of your comments, so you like Wagner
Consider the other resources I mention
You're trying to narrow the public's acceptance of art, why should you?
tra...@pipeline.com wrote in article
<3bf7e1d8...@news.lvcablemodem.com>...
David Cantu
"tracy" <tra...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:e0458ec1.01111...@posting.google.com...
Music, art, and literature also have power to change states of
consciousness.
Music has long been associated with technique, but there are forms of music
that are anti-technique as well.
Sometimes unfamiliarity with an instrument can lead to an innocence of
approach that brings forth something that technique cannot. Or sometimes
there is purpose in the subversion of expectations.
>
> I would have asked you if the lead singer who did not know music could
> carry a tune, though, could he pick a note even, but then I recalled
> Bob Dylan. His lyrics are good though.
Voice has many forms of expression. There are technically perfect vocalists
who just can't bring forth anything real and exciting, they add nothing to
the evolution of music. There are very imperfect vocalists who have
developed forms of expression that are unique and which do add to the
evolutionary pallet. Taste is wide here and very individual. Some extreme
examples are such artists as Diamanda Galas, who I first heard on her album,
"The Litanies of Satan", in which she used just about every sound producible
with the human voice to express 40 minutes of hell. Later I sat in a
symphony concert hall and watched her perform "The Plague Mass" (for AIDs
victims), topless and covered in blood. The regular subscribers where in
suits and where appalled, most of the rest of the audience was dressed in
black and thought it was great.
Then there is the vocal style used in "Death Metal" and "Black Metal", in
which the "singer" belches/vomits/barks forth the lyrics in such a way as to
sound like a demon, or walking corpse. This vocal style is rather difficult
to accept at first and is quite repulsive, exactly its intent. Several
"Black Metal" players have been convicted of burning Scandinavian churches
and even brutal murder.
Taste and purpose are wide and varied.
No, Austin Caustic could not hold a tune. He mostly "ranted" about politics
and yelled or screamed over our cacophony.
>
> Jazz musicians who improvise have actually a lot more training than is
> the average. It is harder, and requires a higher degree of musical
> skill.
> As I understand it, they are actually the most impressive of
> musicians,
> on those terms. They have to know their "shit" inside and out, and
> they have to know a lot more of it.
They aren't just following a programmed set of instructions like classical
musicians and pop musicians do, though the improvisation does usually
revolve around a theme of some sort in Jazz. All improvisational music has
the potential to become a medium of communication between the musicians as
they work off one another. There is discipline in not getting in one
another's way. In the improv I am involved in there is no starting theme to
work from and the evolution from nothing to something is spontaneous, though
there is still communication among players, as in Jazz.
>
> So we could talk about improvisation, let's dance, let's do the
> baton twirling fire breathing astral sword circumambulation dance.
No, that's performance art;-)
>
> Ok I'm being weird :)
I hope so.
David Cantu
<tra...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:3bf5ba2f...@news.lvcablemodem.com...
There are several ways I compose or produce music but it all must come
through the "gate of creation" to be manifest. By taking different
approaches to composition and creation one tailors the channel of expression
allowing different possibilities to manifest in sound space. In my opinion,
everything that is created starts as part of the infinite potential of could
be, the infinite creative potential of God-unmanifest. The musician or
composer acts as an instrument of this creative potential just as the tools
of art are used by the musician. Who can really say why some set of note
progressions or harmonies or noise comes out of a person, aside from the way
it conforms to what that person has been conditioned to like as music? Open
the doorway of possibilities and then find a way to capture it as it comes
forth, whether on paper or recording or just in the vibrations of the air.
Love,
}*^!}
>
> Love,
>
> Tracy
>
>
David Cantu
<tra...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:3bf6b25a...@news.lvcablemodem.com...
Personally, I'd rather study the audiences reactions. At a performance here
in Houston the band Mr. Bungle once came on stage and played their first
song and then froze........they just wouldn't move.....the audience became
impatient....the audience grumbled....the audience started getting
mean...the audience started getting dangerous.....someone threw something
and hit Mike Patton, the singer.....people started booing and telling them
to fuck off.
Suddenly they started playing again and the audience went wild. At least
ten minutes had passed.
>
> But I am still interested in exploring their understanding
> of the occult and of psychology.
>
By understanding the occult and psychology a performer can manipulate many
things out of an audience.
> Tracy
>
>
>
>
David Cantu
"Blazin' Tommy D." <td...@stny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:01c17030$9f42c9a0$d8865f18@federalist...
> I'd be happy to do this nude. And expect several standing ovations
depends on how it stands.
tra...@pipeline.com
>> Personally, I'd rather see some ballet.
>
>Personally, I'd rather study the audiences reactions. At a performance here
>in Houston the band Mr. Bungle once came on stage and played their first
>song and then froze........they just wouldn't move.....the audience became
>impatient....the audience grumbled....the audience started getting
>mean...the audience started getting dangerous.....someone threw something
>and hit Mike Patton, the singer.....people started booing and telling them
>to fuck off.
That is exactly the reaction I would have expected :).
>Suddenly they started playing again and the audience went wild. At least
>ten minutes had passed.
But! They could not have gotten away with that without doing a "real"
performance.
tra...@pipeline.com
>>
>>
>> Ok part 2!
>>
>> When you do music, or compose music, what part of your mind
>> do you feel you are accessing? Do you think it's the subconscious
>> (as if we really know what that is), or do you feel it's a part of the
>> Higher Mind, i.e., Divinity?
>
>There are several ways I compose or produce music but it all must come
>through the "gate of creation" to be manifest. By taking different
>approaches to composition and creation one tailors the channel of expression
>allowing different possibilities to manifest in sound space. In my opinion,
>everything that is created starts as part of the infinite potential of could
>be, the infinite creative potential of God-unmanifest. The musician or
>composer acts as an instrument of this creative potential just as the tools
>of art are used by the musician. Who can really say why some set of note
>progressions or harmonies or noise comes out of a person, aside from the way
>it conforms to what that person has been conditioned to like as music? Open
>the doorway of possibilities and then find a way to capture it as it comes
>forth, whether on paper or recording or just in the vibrations of the air.
Ok, I guess this part is what I am curious about....artists say their
creativity comes from their "sub" conscious, but I tend to think
it's not form there, but rather from the "supra" consciousness,
and your experience corroborates that view. I don't think
the subconscious really is such a marvelous fantastic source
of inspired creativity. Perhaps the problem is that research is
still going on, and we still haven't got this sorted out yet.
Just my currrent thoughts.
Love,
Tracy
tra...@pipeline.com
>
>Music, art, and literature also have power to change states of
>consciousness.
>Music has long been associated with technique, but there are forms of music
>that are anti-technique as well.
>Sometimes unfamiliarity with an instrument can lead to an innocence of
>approach that brings forth something that technique cannot. Or sometimes
>there is purpose in the subversion of expectations.
I see.....but doesn't that only work once?
>
>
>>
>> I would have asked you if the lead singer who did not know music could
>> carry a tune, though, could he pick a note even, but then I recalled
>> Bob Dylan. His lyrics are good though.
>
>Voice has many forms of expression. There are technically perfect vocalists
>who just can't bring forth anything real and exciting, they add nothing to
>the evolution of music. There are very imperfect vocalists who have
>developed forms of expression that are unique and which do add to the
>evolutionary pallet. Taste is wide here and very individual.
Yes, it is a complicated thing.
>Some extreme
>examples are such artists as Diamanda Galas, who I first heard on her album,
>"The Litanies of Satan", in which she used just about every sound producible
>with the human voice to express 40 minutes of hell. Later I sat in a
>symphony concert hall and watched her perform "The Plague Mass" (for AIDs
>victims), topless and covered in blood. The regular subscribers where in
>suits and where appalled, most of the rest of the audience was dressed in
>black and thought it was great.
That would not appeal to me, either, though I am not a suit wearer.
>Then there is the vocal style used in "Death Metal" and "Black Metal", in
>which the "singer" belches/vomits/barks forth the lyrics in such a way as to
>sound like a demon, or walking corpse. This vocal style is rather difficult
>to accept at first and is quite repulsive, exactly its intent. Several
>"Black Metal" players have been convicted of burning Scandinavian churches
>and even brutal murder.
>Taste and purpose are wide and varied.
>No, Austin Caustic could not hold a tune. He mostly "ranted" about politics
>and yelled or screamed over our cacophony.
>
>
>>
>> Jazz musicians who improvise have actually a lot more training than is
>> the average. It is harder, and requires a higher degree of musical
>> skill.
>> As I understand it, they are actually the most impressive of
>> musicians,
>> on those terms. They have to know their "shit" inside and out, and
>> they have to know a lot more of it.
>
>They aren't just following a programmed set of instructions like classical
>musicians and pop musicians do, though the improvisation does usually
>revolve around a theme of some sort in Jazz. All improvisational music has
>the potential to become a medium of communication between the musicians as
>they work off one another. There is discipline in not getting in one
>another's way. In the improv I am involved in there is no starting theme to
>work from and the evolution from nothing to something is spontaneous, though
>there is still communication among players, as in Jazz.
hmm.....I'll get back to ya.
>
>
>>
>> So we could talk about improvisation, let's dance, let's do the
>> baton twirling fire breathing astral sword circumambulation dance.
>
>No, that's performance art;-)
Nah just dancing!
>
>>
>> Ok I'm being weird :)
>
>I hope so.
You hope I'm being weird?
Tracy
tra...@pipeline.com
>Personally, I'd rather study the audiences reactions. At a performance here
>in Houston the band Mr. Bungle once came on stage and played their first
>song and then froze........they just wouldn't move.....the audience became
>impatient....the audience grumbled....the audience started getting
>mean...the audience started getting dangerous.....someone threw something
>and hit Mike Patton, the singer.....people started booing and telling them
>to fuck off.
>Suddenly they started playing again and the audience went wild. At least
>ten minutes had passed.
Hmm....sure, they teased them, then delivered the goods.
>
>>
>> But I am still interested in exploring their understanding
>> of the occult and of psychology.
>>
>
>By understanding the occult and psychology a performer can manipulate many
>things out of an audience.
But does the performing artist get manipulated back :)
Tracy
Blazin' Tommy D.
David Cantu <dc...@houston.rr.com> wrote in article
<RZkK7.47676$uO.13...@typhoon.austin.rr.com>...
Blazin' Tommy D.
A Biology professor told me that if we could be simultaneously conscious of
our individual knowledge we'd either faint or go crazy. That's all normal
consciousness really is when dealing with the physical world or our
knowledge of it. Inspired from what you stated before regarding abilities
and talent would fall within the rubric of knowledge. Lou Reed and John
Cale did an album called "Songs for Drella" it didn't sell very well but I
like it very much. The first cut is "Growing Up in a Small Town" Lou is
reciting lyrics and John Cale is playing a simple piano part. It's just
right. Cale has confidence from training AND as an artist to use his
knowledge as the vehicle for bringing the conception from the mind into the
physical world. We sometimes hear criticism (unfortunately inversely
related in terms of actual frequency) that the work has no soul. It is
decadent. Because it is something from knowledge alone or so little of
anything else.
tra...@pipeline.com wrote in article
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