the Moon trump and the great unconscious
Calla
I was wondering if that was an eclipse ( Solar) showing on the moon
card?....where the moon passes between the Earth and the Sun.
Ancient astrologers ( and modern) as well as many old philosophers felt
the phases of the moon innately effect human behavior ( our natural
human/animal instincts, our innate cycles and rythems that are tied to
the changes) we are born with but not conscious of. The total Solar
or Lunar Eclipse being the most powerful.
the trump to me suggests the great power of the great unconscious
within us......just wondering if this is what this card is showing to
others. Calla
Pax
Calla wrote:
The Moon trump is attributed to Pisces in the Thoth deck and is quite
frightful. It has the moon showing her lowest aspect, and Crowley
speaks of the 'dark night of the soul' in connection to this card. If
the moon were occluding the Sun rather than reflecting him this would
make sense and I'd agree with you. I prefer the Priestess - attributed
to the highest aspect of the moon.
Apache Pax.
Apache.
whyzard
Calla wrote:
> the Moon trump
>
> I was wondering if that was an eclipse ( Solar) showing on the moon
> card?....where the moon passes between the Earth and the Sun.
I've read one interpretation that said that the card was showing the
conjunction sol et luna. Quite possibly. In which case, you should
tatoo this card to your forehead because this is clearly a lucky charm
to achieve the great union of opposites although i personally believe
this occured already at zain and elsewehere....
i saw this card the other day in contemplation....can't remember a
thing about it....there is your unconscious---unaware, unintelligible,
unimportant or simply lost
> Ancient astrologers ( and modern) as well as many old philosophers felt
> the phases of the moon innately effect human behavior ( our natural
> human/animal instincts, our innate cycles and rythems that are tied to
> the changes) we are born with but not conscious of. The total Solar
> or Lunar Eclipse being the most powerful.
> the trump to me suggests the great power of the great unconscious
> within us......
oh no. You are quite wrong. The card is clearly showing the archetypes
to postulate the unconscious reference is uncalled for
> just wondering if this is what this card is showing to
> others. Calla
to me that card is saying that you should bring beef jerky on long foot
journeys cause in case a wild dog or wolf attacks you you can throw the
beef jerky for a decoy
Calla
Hi Apache :) ( thank you for your website)
my first impression of the Moon Trump that came to me.....was
addictions and emotional habit patterns. Unconscious habitual emotional
patterns we keep repeating over and over again throughout our lives.
Our deep "attachment" to people/places and things that cause pain, and
are not healthy for us....yet we can't seem to break away. The moon
is cyclic...these emotional patterns and additions keep rising to the
surface.....until the pain is dealt with. Calla
Pax
Calla wrote:
I think you're right Calla. The first pain is caused by the seperation
from mother - or rather, the realisation that we are seperate entities.
The realisation gives rise to the sense of self and the ego, as we
seek to define what this self is by seeking it's reflection in others -
both positive and negative traits. Things once conscious to us are
placed in the storehouse of our unconscious (polluting the perfect
order and giving rise to karmic consequences), becoming mental and
emotional habits and patterns. Things that cause us pain echo the
first pain - that of seperation. Sometimes people will keep indulging
in negative behaviors because of a wish to heal the first wound of the
psyche, but while this is unresolved such indulgences only serve to
reinforce the false ego and it's defenses.
It is not enough for us to come to an intellectual realisation of this
in order to heal and begin to put things aright. It is necessary for
us to have the experience of Unity - a vision of no difference, that
goes to the very core of our being. This 'Unity in diversity' is
something you seem to have some insight into. The experience of it is
the sole reason for the true practice of Zen, Magick, all Meditation
and devotional forms of religion. The experience reveals to us the
true nature of our beings behind the facade we have built. It is
beyond the dualism of the conscious mind, yet after we experience it we
find we are still prone to bad habits and attachments that cause us
pain. However - we then have a good foundation to start the work of
unlearning these bad habits in order to allow the true being to
manifest his or her light to it's fullest capacity in the world. This
requires the cultivation of 'mindfulness' - or 'Right Mind', when
subconscious patterns and motivations are played out clearly as if on
the screen of awareness and tackled one at a time in the Great Work.
Respectfully.
Apache Pax.
Archangel
"whyzard" <why...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1143440666....@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Calla wrote:
>> the Moon trump
>>
>> I was wondering if that was an eclipse ( Solar) showing on the moon
>> card?....where the moon passes between the Earth and the Sun.
>
>
>
>
> I've read one interpretation that said that the card was showing the
> conjunction sol et luna. Quite possibly. In which case, you should
> tatoo this card to your forehead because this is clearly a lucky charm
> to achieve the great union of opposites although i personally believe
> this occured already at zain and elsewehere....
>
> i saw this card the other day in contemplation....can't remember a
> thing about it....there is your unconscious---unaware, unintelligible,
> unimportant or simply lost
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Ancient astrologers ( and modern) as well as many old philosophers felt
>> the phases of the moon innately effect human behavior ( our natural
>> human/animal instincts, our innate cycles and rythems that are tied to
>> the changes) we are born with but not conscious of. The total Solar
>> or Lunar Eclipse being the most powerful.
>> the trump to me suggests the great power of the great unconscious
>> within us......
>
>
>
> oh no. You are quite wrong. The card is clearly showing the archetypes
>
> to postulate the unconscious reference is uncalled for
Archetypes exist within the unconscious.
A
Calla
There is something else I see within the Moon Trump, and I believe it
can fit within this card too. The Preditor. This is much deeper then
emotional and painful addictions. It would be the darkest part of a
human being....that only comes out, wells up, or comes into play when
triggered by something maybe. When no one else is looking. The person
who seems normal and plays the perfect soul, when in fact, the heart of
the being is missing or black as night. Your Ted Bundy's of the world.
Within Nature, there are preditors...and maybe man by nature is a
preditor too. The moon card can also represent that. Calla
Seamus
Pax
Calla wrote:
I used to know a chap like that, and I used to think his face resembled
the traditional 'man in the moon' face you see on cards. Cancerian.
Black as night...
Apache Pax.
Pax
Calla wrote:
Calla? What made you think of this? Is there someone you think of
when you think of this card?
I ask because I am reminded that opposites attract.
Apache Pax.
whyzard
that is so last aeon ago.
Archetypes don't live there anymore.
They are here now---
in your XBox 360
Pax
whyzard wrote:
Graphic Designers use them all the time. The more we use them, the
more the public get's wise to them.
Apache Pax.
"Our image is no image" - Axel Rose.
Brett
muttered intensely:
>the trump to me suggests the great power of the great unconscious
>within us......just wondering if this is what this card is showing to
>others. Calla
This is essentially what it means to me.
Calla
No... I was just thinking about the card. These thoughts just sort of
came. I told you before, what I see may not be what the books say.. I
just wanted to know if others saw what i saw too. calla
Rosifer
> the Moon trump
>
> I was wondering if that was an eclipse ( Solar) showing on the moon
> card?....where the moon passes between the Earth and the Sun.
I assume you are talking about the image on the Waite deck.
Personally, I don't think it is an eclipse. Waite doesn't mention
anything about an eclipse. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that it
is intended to portray a Sun and Moon though.
I think it is more likely that it is showing the phases of the moon. He
does mention something about that, and he also makes it quite clear in
what direction it is heading. In the Thoth deck Crowley says it is a
waning Moon. The reason for this apparent discrepancy might make a good
subject for discussion amongst the Tarot experts here.
> Ancient astrologers ( and modern) as well as many old philosophers felt
> the phases of the moon innately effect human behavior ( our natural
> human/animal instincts, our innate cycles and rythems that are tied to
> the changes) we are born with but not conscious of. The total Solar
> or Lunar Eclipse being the most powerful.
> the trump to me suggests the great power of the great unconscious
> within us......just wondering if this is what this card is showing to
> others. Calla
That might depend on what you mean by "the great power of the great
unconscious within us". Certainly you would think that the crab arising
from the waters might be symbolic of something appearing from the
depths of our mind, but what exactly might that creature be, and from
where does it ascend?
The best advice I had about this card was to read "The Dark Night of
the Soul" by Saint John of the Cross. You can get a copy here;
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/john_cross/dark_night.html
Rosifer
Archangel
sorry, I am an old-fashioned guy at heart. Old Aeon or not...
A
Archangel
"Brett" <xxbw...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:tatg22pfc6lp6d9gi...@4ax.com...
And it is essentially correct. Calla seems to be very much more gifted with
this kind of work than she thinks she is.
A
al-Ghazzi
>Calla wrote:
>> the Moon trump
>>
>> I was wondering if that was an eclipse ( Solar) showing on the moon
>> card?....where the moon passes between the Earth and the Sun.
>
>I assume you are talking about the image on the Waite deck.
>
>Personally, I don't think it is an eclipse. Waite doesn't mention
>anything about an eclipse. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that it
>is intended to portray a Sun and Moon though.
Waite offered little in explanation pertaining initiation, and with
consistency. I believe it is a depiction of a Solar Eclipse, but to
make that connection to the collective unconscious is impressive. To
each his or her own but my hat's off to Calla.
>I think it is more likely that it is showing the phases of the moon. He
>does mention something about that, and he also makes it quite clear in
>what direction it is heading. In the Thoth deck Crowley says it is a
>waning Moon. The reason for this apparent discrepancy might make a good
>subject for discussion amongst the Tarot experts here.
I'm by no means a Tarot expert, but as far as I'm concerned there are
not any discrepancies between Crowley's and Waite's Moon Atus. They
compliment each other in fact. I can see how Crowley's witticism in
_The Book of Thoth_ may obfuscate the more relevant depictions in the
card, but the card's symbology speaks for itself.
Waning Moon: The illusionary astral veils the mental plane.
Solar Eclipse: The illusionary mental plane within the astral isn't
the real mental plane.
All of this evidences a pattern to follow 'above'; and of course the
collective unconscious in the astral would be the mental plane.
The above point wasn't neglected by Crowley. He just didn't treat it
in _The Book of Thoth_.
The god beside Anubis is Wapwawet, "Opener of the Two Ways." Crowley's
vision of the Aire TOR alludes him to be the Opener of Three Ways. The
latter of which concerns the three major divisions of the planes
within the astral miming the divisions within the Tree of Life.
Interestingly Paul Foster Case in his _The True and Invisible
Rosicrucian Order_ cites a quotation from an unattributed rendition of
_The Book of Formation_ which suggests a similar Hebrew God Name to
Wapwawet is to be evoked in the astral as a guide out of the astral,
and thus, theoretically, through the rest of The Tree of Life.
"The twenty-ninth path is called Corporeal Intelligence. It informs
every body which is incorporated under all orbs, and is the growth
thereof."
I won't argue the picture of the Moon and the Sun in Waite's Moon
Trump solely portrays a Solar Eclipse though. A meditative technique
as well, perhaps?
>> Ancient astrologers ( and modern) as well as many old philosophers felt
>> the phases of the moon innately effect human behavior ( our natural
>> human/animal instincts, our innate cycles and rhythms that are tied to
>> the changes) we are born with but not conscious of. The total Solar
>> or Lunar Eclipse being the most powerful.
>
>> the trump to me suggests the great power of the great unconscious
>> within us......just wondering if this is what this card is showing to
>> others. Calla
>
>That might depend on what you mean by "the great power of the great
>unconscious within us". Certainly you would think that the crab arising
>from the waters might be symbolic of something appearing from the
>depths of our mind, but what exactly might that creature be, and from
>where does it ascend?
The crab is symbol of the Svadhisthana chakra and the cardinal sign of
Water. True the astral is Air, but a clear reflection of the Tree of
Life is found therein.
>The best advice I had about this card was to read "The Dark Night of
>the Soul" by Saint John of the Cross. You can get a copy here;
>http://www.ccel.org/ccel/john_cross/dark_night.html
_The Dark Night of the Soul_ references crossing the abyss within the
astral does it not?
Karipidu Marianna
"Calla" <familia...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1143480460....@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Pax wrote:
> > Calla wrote:
> > > Pax wrote:
> > > > Calla wrote:
> > > > > the Moon trump
> > > > Apache Pax.
> > > > Apache.
Gee, Calla..., what does preditor mean?
Karipidu Marianna
Is it possible to see the moon with the eyes of
an ancient astrologer or an old philosopher?
That is the critical question!
mika
> There is something else I see within the Moon Trump, and I believe it
> can fit within this card too. The Preditor. This is much deeper then
> emotional and painful addictions. It would be the darkest part of a
> human being....that only comes out, wells up, or comes into play when
> triggered by something maybe. When no one else is looking. The person
> who seems normal and plays the perfect soul, when in fact, the heart of
> the being is missing or black as night. Your Ted Bundy's of the world.
I think it is significant that you place a negative value judgement on
being a preditor ("the darkest part of a human being"). One aspect of
the Moon card that I like to pay attention to is the interaction
between the tamed or domesticated part of our self and the wild,
instinctual part of our self, sometimes represented by a wolf and dog
on either side of the central path one is walking. Perhaps some people
do not manifest the wildness in a healthy way, but it is not inherently
bad, it is simply a part of one's nature, what matters is how you deal
with it. We all have preditory instincts that can be very useful and
necessary tools if we learn how to use them properly. The obvious
example is the hunter who provides food for her or his family.
Perhaps you have not yet faced your predatory nature head on so it is
still a dark, dangerous part of your self and by extention, of all
others.
> Within Nature, there are preditors...and maybe man by nature is a
> preditor too. The moon card can also represent that.
Yes. Humans have instincts just like any other animal, some of those
instincts are predatory. Humans also have the potential for self
control, the ability to choose whether or not to act on those
instincts. The more self-awareness and discipline you have, the better
your ability to choose when and how to act on your instincts. The more
you deny, detest or dismiss your nature, the less control you have over
how it manifests in your life.
Amber
> Calla wrote:
> > the Moon trump
> >
> > I was wondering if that was an eclipse ( Solar) showing on the moon
> > card?....where the moon passes between the Earth and the Sun.
>
> I assume you are talking about the image on the Waite deck.
>
> Personally, I don't think it is an eclipse. Waite doesn't mention
> anything about an eclipse. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that it
> is intended to portray a Sun and Moon though.
>
> I think it is more likely that it is showing the phases of the moon. He
> does mention something about that, and he also makes it quite clear in
> what direction it is heading. In the Thoth deck Crowley says it is a
> waning Moon. The reason for this apparent discrepancy might make a good
> subject for discussion amongst the Tarot experts here.
Here is what Waite said himself about the Moon Card from the Waite Deck
(page 140 Pictorial Key to the Tarot by Waite)
The discussion between this card & some of conventional types is the
moon is increasing on what is called the side of mercy, to the right of
the observer. It has 16 chief & 16 secondary rays. The card
represents life of the imagination apart from the life of the spirit.
The path between the towers is the issue into the unknown. The dog &
the wolf are fears of the natural mind in the presence of that place of
exit, when there is only reflected light to guide it [sounds rather
like the pursuit of magick & mysticism to me...]
The last reference is a key to another form of symbolism. The
intellectual light is a reflection and beyond it is unkown mystery
which cannot shew forth. It illuminates our animal natures, types of
which are represented below - the dog, the wolf & that which comes up
out of the deeps, nameless & hideous tendency which is the lower beast.
It strives to attain manifestation, symbolized by crawling from the
abyss of water to the land, but as a rule it sinks back whence it came.
The face of the mind directs a calm gaza upon the unrest below; the
dew of thought falls; the message is: Peace, be still; & it may be that
there shall come a calm upon the animal nature, while the abyss beneath
shall cease from giving form.
> > the trump to me suggests the great power of the great unconscious
> > within us......just wondering if this is what this card is showing to
> > others. Calla
You sure said it more succintly!
Amber
Calla
thank you Archangel....:) Calla
Amber
May I suggest *Duality* not just predatory instincts. Upon emanation
from the source/creation, the characteristics were split into
dualities. Some of the legends say when we return to the source we
will have all of the characteristics united back into whole within
ourselves but now while existing in the physical plane we have *take
the good with the bad*, as it were. WE all have the ability to be
very good & very evil/bad/unsociable because we have both the bad & the
good within.
I have multiple decks. I have also seen images of secrecy in the moon
card. It reminds me of duality too, & of the time when secrecy was
required (not just recommended by friendly alt.magick regulars) because
one might be forced to drink hemlock, be put through the inquision &
burned at the stake, etc. The secrecy can also be a sign of treachery,
the lower aspects of the *animal* nature...
Amber
mika
Amber wrote:
> Here is what Waite said himself about the Moon Card from the Waite Deck
> (page 140 Pictorial Key to the Tarot by Waite)
>
> The discussion between this card & some of conventional types is the
> moon is increasing on what is called the side of mercy, to the right of
> the observer. It has 16 chief & 16 secondary rays. The card
> represents life of the imagination apart from the life of the spirit.
> The path between the towers is the issue into the unknown. The dog &
> the wolf are fears of the natural mind in the presence of that place of
> exit, when there is only reflected light to guide it [sounds rather
> like the pursuit of magick & mysticism to me...]
>
> The last reference is a key to another form of symbolism. The
> intellectual light is a reflection and beyond it is unkown mystery
> which cannot shew forth. It illuminates our animal natures, types of
> which are represented below - the dog, the wolf & that which comes up
> out of the deeps, nameless & hideous tendency which is the lower beast.
> It strives to attain manifestation, symbolized by crawling from the
> abyss of water to the land, but as a rule it sinks back whence it came.
> The face of the mind directs a calm gaza upon the unrest below; the
> dew of thought falls; the message is: Peace, be still; & it may be that
> there shall come a calm upon the animal nature, while the abyss beneath
> shall cease from giving form.
Like most of Waite's writing, that is way too judgemental and limiting
for my taste. Our animal nature simply is. It is not hideous, nor
glorious. It simply is part of our self. What matters is what we do
with our animal nature, how we integrate it into who we are, whether we
accept or deny it, whether we control it or let it control us, etc.
Even to label the dog and wolf "fears of the natural mind" establishes
a bias in how the card is interpreted. Not everyone fears their animal
nature, their so-called "lower beast". More important, to imply that
fearing your animal nature is the 'natural state of affairs' so to
speak, makes that fear acceptable. So people can continue to live in
fear of a part of who they are and go on their merry way under the
false belief that that fear is not going to come back and bite them at
a future date. And believe me, if you fear a part of yourself it
certainly is going to come back and bite you as soon as the opportunity
arises.
The wolf is the fear of one's animal nature, not the animal nature
itself. Once you accept your animal nature and learn to choose when
and how to act on it, it becomes the dog and is no longer fearful or
dangerous.
Calla
A predator ( miss spelled it ) sorry :}
I dunno, not really sure where I was going with those thoughts
Marianna. I was thinking of addictions and ..the meaning of the moon
card....and I ended up somewhere dark in the mind of some Ted Bundy
type predators. Calla
mika
>
> May I suggest *Duality* not just predatory instincts. Upon emanation
> from the source/creation, the characteristics were split into
> dualities.
Alright, but we are discussing the Moon card. What you are describing,
imo, is part of the path of the High Priestess (among others but I'm
trying to stay focused on topic). "Duality" is represented in many
cards, but I do not see the Moon card as splitting or uniting dualities
like the HP, just perhaps balancing them within oneself.
> Some of the legends say when we return to the source we
> will have all of the characteristics united back into whole within
> ourselves but now while existing in the physical plane we have *take
> the good with the bad*, as it were.
Perhaps when we return to the source, all will be united, but I don't
believe we have to or should wait until that happens. Practicing
magick, for me, involves harmonizing all parts of ourself into a
healthy balanced whole. Not simply accepting the bad, but transforming
it as needed.
> WE all have the ability to be
> very good & very evil/bad/unsociable because we have both the bad & the
> good within.
I'm confused by your association of evil/bad with unsociable.
> I have multiple decks. I have also seen images of secrecy in the moon
> card. It reminds me of duality too, & of the time when secrecy was
> required (not just recommended by friendly alt.magick regulars) because
> one might be forced to drink hemlock, be put through the inquision &
> burned at the stake, etc.
How does secrecy remind you of duality, if you don't mind explaining?
That is an interesting association.
> The secrecy can also be a sign of treachery,
> the lower aspects of the *animal* nature...
I don't see treachery as part of the 'lower aspects of the animal
nature'. Treachery involves conscious manipulation, which I associate
with Mercury and the Trickster. Anyway, like I said in another post, I
don't believe there are "lower aspects" of animal nature. Animal
nature just is, to call part of it "lower" is to deny or fear that part
of oneself. What matters is how we act on or relate to our animal
nature.
Calla
mika wrote:
> Calla wrote:
> > There is something else I see within the Moon Trump, and I believe it
> > can fit within this card too. The Preditor. This is much deeper then
> > emotional and painful addictions. It would be the darkest part of a
> > human being....that only comes out, wells up, or comes into play when
> > triggered by something maybe. When no one else is looking. The person
> > who seems normal and plays the perfect soul, when in fact, the heart of
> > the being is missing or black as night. Your Ted Bundy's of the world.
>
> I think it is significant that you place a negative value judgement on
> being a preditor ("the darkest part of a human being").
no no I didn't mean too. There are many levels and shades to this.
Both positive and negative. I wanted to add on to the post after i
thought about it, but didn't have time. It is a part of our own
nature...that is why I thought of it. I was going to the darkest
extreme with ted Bundy. :)
One aspect of
> the Moon card that I like to pay attention to is the interaction
> between the tamed or domesticated part of our self and the wild,
> instinctual part of our self, sometimes represented by a wolf and dog
> on either side of the central path one is walking.
Perhaps some people
> do not manifest the wildness in a healthy way, but it is not inherently
> bad, it is simply a part of one's nature, what matters is how you deal
> with it. We all have preditory instincts that can be very useful and
> necessary tools if we learn how to use them properly.
The obvious
> example is the hunter who provides food for her or his family.
>
> Perhaps you have not yet faced your predatory nature head on so it is
> still a dark, dangerous part of your self and by extention, of all
> others.
>
> > Within Nature, there are preditors...and maybe man by nature is a
> > preditor too. The moon card can also represent that.
>
> Yes. Humans have instincts just like any other animal, some of those
> instincts are predatory. Humans also have the potential for self
> control, the ability to choose whether or not to act on those
> instincts. The more self-awareness and discipline you have, the better
> your ability to choose when and how to act on your instincts. The more
> you deny, detest or dismiss your nature, the less control you have over
> how it manifests in your life.
agreed.... Calla
Karipidu Marianna
"Karipidu Marianna" <kari...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:z-qdnX2oAoL...@comcast.com...
Some ancient astrologers and philosophers
believed that when the Selene-Hekate-passes
into the Earth's shadow cone, many souls are
frightened. According to Plutarchos, many
souls are frightened when they see the face
of Selene, that, as the ancient wise emphasizes,
it is not other than the valleys, the mountains
and seas of Selene. So, that experience is the
experience of the cone of the shadow of the
earth or the experience of the abyss of Hekate.
Plutarchos also said that the Selene has two
gates: a) the Elysian fields that they face the
sun, and the fields of Persephone that face
the earth.
Karipidu Marianna
sun, and b) the fields of Persephone...
> the earth.
>
>
Karipidu Marianna
Oh, Calla, I hear you saying this: Oh, star, I
fell in the galaxy, I fell in the milky way!
Well, now you found the source of memory
(the spring of mnemosyne). :-)
Calla
marianna....is this a good thing? I don't understand what your telling
me....Calla
Calla
mika wrote:
> Calla wrote:
> > There is something else I see within the Moon Trump, and I believe it
> > can fit within this card too. The Preditor. This is much deeper then
> > emotional and painful addictions. It would be the darkest part of a
> > human being....that only comes out, wells up, or comes into play when
> > triggered by something maybe. When no one else is looking. The person
> > who seems normal and plays the perfect soul, when in fact, the heart of
> > the being is missing or black as night. Your Ted Bundy's of the world.
>
> I think it is significant that you place a negative value judgement on
> being a preditor ("the darkest part of a human being").
Ok Mika, lets go back to this. First, these are just my thoughts ok?
I don't have much to back it up. But too me, it is our darkest deepest
aspect of Self.
Not sure how to explain this to you, but darkness to me does not mean
evil. It only becomes evil when used against the natural rights of
other human beings . As a mother my instinct is to protect my child and
my family. It is my natural instinct to hunt (our deepest basic desire
nature) for food when hungry.. even a basic hunt for a mate :) But
that is not a predator Mika...a predator is different. a predator preys
on things weaker then itself. .....it hunts for its victems.
One aspect of
> the Moon card that I like to pay attention to is the interaction
> between the tamed or domesticated part of our self and the wild,
> instinctual part of our self, sometimes represented by a wolf and dog
> on either side of the central path one is walking. Perhaps some people
> do not manifest the wildness in a healthy way, but it is not inherently
> bad, it is simply a part of one's nature, what matters is how you deal
> with it. We all have preditory instincts
We are a spieces of earth. There are countless species. But we are an
evolved spieces that is not suppose to prey on the weak, the young and
the old.
that can be very useful and
> necessary tools if we learn how to use them properly. The obvious
> example is the hunter who provides food for her or his family.
>
that is not a predator
> Perhaps you have not yet faced your predatory nature head on so it is
> still a dark, dangerous part of your self and by extention, of all
> others.
>
.
> > Within Nature, there are preditors...and maybe man by nature is a
> > preditor too. The moon card can also represent that.
>
> Yes. Humans have instincts just like any other animal, some of those
> instincts are predatory. Humans also have the potential for self
> control, the ability to choose whether or not to act on those
> instincts. The more self-awareness and discipline you have, the better
> your ability to choose when and how to act on your instincts. The more
> you deny, detest or dismiss your nature, the less control you have over
> how it manifests in your life.
Calla
Calla
ok.....I see what your saying. It is a predator...a female cat that
hunts for food is a predator. But she does not kill for sport, she
kills for survival. Those instincts could kick in for any of us for
survival...if we had too. Calla
Amber
Waite's writings, as I find myself filtering with various writers (for
instance Crowley & how he felt about women!). To me the animal nature
is glorious, as are all other parts of us, & something not to be
feared. In fact on reading I did not even hear the judgemental part
because my associations with discovery of self are transcendant, even
when facing really bad crap. (Plus sometimes I think animals are the
wise ones! It is my devotion to animals & life that kept me alive
during the worst of times.) There is great beauty in the spirit that
perseveres & that is what came to mind in me as I was reading Waite's
passage. The folks who fear the deeper nature of the dog, the wolf,
whatever are not ready to transcend, or heal, or grasp the essence of
the idea...
& the idea of duality, all of these are within us. Like you say, it's
about coming to terms with & integrating all of the parts of ourselves,
IMHO. I found it freeing to realize that I have good & bad/light &
dark (whatever pairs you want to mention) within me. If I do something
that is *evil* it does not mean I am inherently evil. misguided perhaps
in that instant, & immersed in the quality of that particular dual
reality, but not any more evil than the next life/being. These pieces
are all part of our natures.
You remind me of the idea that emotions are not bad or good, they just
are. Waite is/was masonic right?
Amber
mika
Amber wrote:
> I overlooked the judgement in
> Waite's writings, as I find myself filtering with various writers (for
> instance Crowley & how he felt about women!).
Some authors push my buttons more than others, and Waite is one of
them. It's great that you can filter him, for me, he's a big turn off.
(Snip)
> You remind me of the idea that emotions are not bad or good, they just
> are. Waite is/was masonic right?
I'm not familiar with his actual affiliations, but I know that he
attempted to Christianize much of the Tarot in a way that seems forced,
that doesn't "fit" or flow naturally from the more 'generic' hermetic
qabala framework. May work for some people, but I don't like a lot of
his manipulations and interpretations, they don't work for me.
Karipidu Marianna
>
> Karipidu Marianna wrote:
> > "Calla" <familia...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:1143581801.3...@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > >
> > > Karipidu Marianna wrote:
> > > > "Calla" <familia...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:1143480460....@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > > > > There is something else I see within the Moon Trump, and I believe it
> > > > > can fit within this card too. The Preditor. This is much deeper then
> > > > > emotional and painful addictions. It would be the darkest part of a
> > > > > human being....that only comes out, wells up, or comes into play when
> > > > > triggered by something maybe. When no one else is looking. The person
> > > > > who seems normal and plays the perfect soul, when in fact, the heart of
> > > > > the being is missing or black as night. Your Ted Bundy's of the world.
> > > >
> > > > > Within Nature, there are preditors...and maybe man by nature is a
> > > > > preditor too. The moon card can also represent that. Calla
> > > >
> > > > Gee, Calla..., what does preditor mean?
> > >
> > > A predator ( miss spelled it ) sorry :}
> > > I dunno, not really sure where I was going with those thoughts
> > > Marianna. I was thinking of addictions and ..the meaning of the moon
> > > card....and I ended up somewhere dark in the mind of some Ted Bundy
> > > type predators. Calla
> >
> > Oh, Calla, I hear you saying this: Oh, star, I
> > fell in the galaxy, I fell in the milky way!
> >
> > Well, now you found the source of memory
> > (the spring of mnemosyne). :-)
>
> marianna....is this a good thing? I don't understand what your telling
> me....Calla
Don't worry, Calla, don't worry. You got lost, but
you found the source of memory. Now, you
can come back.
Calla, you have to remember that you experience
emotions when you face the moon (when you enter
the kingdom of Hekate). Sorry, my English is not
good.
Amber
> Amber wrote:
> >
> > May I suggest *Duality* not just predatory instincts. Upon emanation
> > from the source/creation, the characteristics were split into
> > dualities.
>
> Alright, but we are discussing the Moon card. What you are describing,
> imo, is part of the path of the High Priestess (among others but I'm
> trying to stay focused on topic). "Duality" is represented in many
> cards, but I do not see the Moon card as splitting or uniting dualities
> like the HP, just perhaps balancing them within oneself.
In this case the duality is that we have both the higher & lower
natures within us. The dog/lower animal nature is in us & the moon/the
philosopher or higher nature in us (using some of Marianna's ideas).
Using some of Waite's symbolism, the path to enlightenment is the
unknown & the dog & the wolf are the representative of the lower
natures who fears the unknown. The Crab thing crawling out of the
water onto land is the part of us that perseveres to cross the abyss.
When we successfully follow the unknown path to self-knowlege, cross
the abyss, & intergrate the various parts, if we are very lucky we
experience unity as the various peices of ourselves reunite.
To be fair, my Art Nouveau cards have a very beautiful, diaphanous moon
card that is more abour secrecy. Last night after Calla asked her
question, it sent me to my books trying to see where secrecy went. I
do not have the same associations with the moon card that many folks do
with Waite's or Crowley's Thoth deck & perhaps this is partly due to me
being Wiccan Clergy.
> > Some of the legends say when we return to the source we
> > will have all of the characteristics united back into whole within
> > ourselves but now while existing in the physical plane we have *take
> > the good with the bad*, as it were.
>
> Perhaps when we return to the source, all will be united, but I don't
> believe we have to or should wait until that happens. Practicing
> magick, for me, involves harmonizing all parts of ourself into a
> healthy balanced whole. Not simply accepting the bad, but transforming
> it as needed.
Agreed, this is the beauty. Sometimes integration feels like seeing
God here on earth ;)
> > WE all have the ability to be
> > very good & very evil/bad/unsociable because we have both the bad & the
> > good within.
>
> I'm confused by your association of evil/bad with unsociable.
Mainly due to my cynical & analytic nature that tells me often that
which is labeled evil is simply anti-social behavior, be it Ted Bundy
or someone who doesn't act in accordance laws (possibly because they
find the laws immoral). Being scientific I always go back to reality
is dependent on your position or view of things. If you are in power
you want people to act according to the law of the land because that
keeps your profits & pockets full. If you are hungry & watching your
kids starve, depending on whether George Bush or your mother is
watching you, they may call you a terrorist or a freedom fighter. I
don't think evil & good are absolutes. Don't want to get into
another debate about whether or not there is such a thing as pure,
absolute evil or good (which has happened before someone wanted to
argue via email this point & would not hear any arguments that
conflicted with his view.)
> > I have multiple decks. I have also seen images of secrecy in the moon
> > card. It reminds me of duality too, & of the time when secrecy was
> > required (not just recommended by friendly alt.magick regulars) because
> > one might be forced to drink hemlock, be put through the inquision &
> > burned at the stake, etc.
>
> How does secrecy remind you of duality, if you don't mind explaining?
> That is an interesting association.
Similar to above. The effects of keeping secrets can vbe evil from
some vantage points. Secrecy from one veiwpoint can be nesc. for
various reasons. But if society says thou shalt not practise Magick
lest ye be burned at the stake, the powers that be (like the
inquisition) will see your unsociable insistence on practising magick
as something evil & they may label you evil. But as you come to
another veiwpoint (reach enlightenment & you see the truths from the
various vantage points) you view practising magick as sacred. This is
a Gnostic view of things...
> > The secrecy can also be a sign of treachery,
> > the lower aspects of the *animal* nature...
>
> I don't see treachery as part of the 'lower aspects of the animal
> nature'. Treachery involves conscious manipulation, which I associate
> with Mercury and the Trickster. Anyway, like I said in another post, I
> don't believe there are "lower aspects" of animal nature. Animal
> nature just is, to call part of it "lower" is to deny or fear that part
> of oneself. What matters is how we act on or relate to our animal
> nature.
Agreed. These are just symbols & I feel animal nature is superior in
some ways to human nature. I am not sure anuimals are capable of
treachery. I think treachery is a humam trait.
Wish I had more time to polish this. Gotta go, one of m,y partners is
here for practise fpor upcoming performance...
Amber
mika
Calla wrote:
> Calla wrote:
> > mika wrote:
> > > I think it is significant that you place a negative value judgement on
> > > being a preditor ("the darkest part of a human being").
> >
> > Ok Mika, lets go back to this. First, these are just my thoughts ok?
> > I don't have much to back it up.
That's cool, I'm not judging you, I'm giving you feedback which is
'just my thoughts' as well.
> ok.....I see what your saying. It is a predator...a female cat that
> hunts for food is a predator. But she does not kill for sport, she
> kills for survival. Those instincts could kick in for any of us for
> survival...if we had too.
What about cats with nice full food bowls who still kill birds and
mice? The predatory instinct is still there, they are practicing for
survival even though they don't need to, because they are natural
predators. Humans are the same, the predatory instinct is there
whether or not we need it for survival. Usually, though, we can find
ways to play out this instinctual behavior that don't involve killing
or interfering with the wills of others.
I have been spending a lot of time with a bow hunter over the past 6
months or so, I am learning a lot about what it is like to have a very
profound predatory nature. His hunting techniques and skills are
impressive, but what is really amazing is how well they apply to other
aspects of life. Observing, tracking, understanding and most of all
respecting the abilities of your prey, then patiently waiting for the
opportune moment to strike. Now that I'm writing this, it sounds like
a good game of poker. Or how about chess? I think there are all sorts
of positive ways people channel their predatory nature that are healthy
and do not interfere with the wills of others. (I tend to hunt for
men... but it is rare for me to ever let loose the arrow. Observing,
tracking and understanding seems to be sufficient.)
I don't think you and I really disagree much, it's just a matter of
perspective and value judgements. And of course, word definitions.
Still, interesting to think about.
Calla
to Rosifer......:) hiya Rosifer
the dark night of the soul, to me, is when you are forced to look into
your own self...and see yourself for whom you "really" are. Every
memory of pain from childhood to where you are now comes flooding back
to be dealt with.
You see all the faces that you've brought pain too .....and you ask
forgiveness. You see all the faces that have hurt or harmed you, and
you find within yourself to forgive them. You find your pain, and
your pain finds you...
It literally brings you to your knees.
And when its over, a tiny light sort of shines at the end of the
tunnel..... And you start to heal.
I see the Judgement card here Rosifer...trump 20. I can see the moon
card...but Judgement comes to mind with the Dark Night of the Soul
cause you actually judge yourself. Calla
Brett
muttered intensely:
>the dark night of the soul, to me, is when you are forced to look into
>your own self...and see yourself for whom you "really" are. Every
>memory of pain from childhood to where you are now comes flooding back
>to be dealt with.
>You see all the faces that you've brought pain too .....and you ask
>forgiveness. You see all the faces that have hurt or harmed you, and
>you find within yourself to forgive them. You find your pain, and
>your pain finds you...
>It literally brings you to your knees.
>And when its over, a tiny light sort of shines at the end of the
>tunnel..... And you start to heal.
>I see the Judgement card here Rosifer...trump 20. I can see the moon
>card...but Judgement comes to mind with the Dark Night of the Soul
>cause you actually judge yourself. Calla
For me too. The Judgment Card.
For my experience, being at the later stages of this period, it hasn't
been about seeing faces, or replaying every event of my life. It
hasn't been about Others. It is all about myself.
Learning how I judge myself. How I punish myself.
Learning in great horrific detail, every fucking way that I think and
act and AM. And being forced to face it, to deal with it, to accept
it for what it is. To accept myself for what I am. PERIOD.
Every time I fight, every time I deny, I am held fast with yellow
oxhide (so to speak - see I Ching Hexagram 33: Retreat) and prevented
from moving on until I figure it out.
The only light at the end of the tunnel comes in the learning. In
finally, at long last, GETTING IT and being able to move on. To stop
hating certain aspects of myself, to stop wanting to kill those parts
of myself that I didn't like, that I didn't want to be.
It is the most painful and horrific path of Self-Acceptance possible.
Again, that is my path and my experience. Other may have a much
easier time of it..
But too, it IS The Moon. Because it involves plunging deep within, to
dredge up and deal with matters of the deep unconscious. Ideas and
patterns and thoughts that, for many years, I did not believe
originated in myself, because they seemed so foreign. And yet THEY
ARE IN ME. They are part of the base pattern that underlies the
whole, and they must be uncovered and dealt with in order to
comprehend the whole.
Archangel
"mika" <mik...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1143581150....@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>
> Amber wrote:
>> Here is what Waite said himself about the Moon Card from the Waite Deck
>> (page 140 Pictorial Key to the Tarot by Waite)
>>
>> The discussion between this card & some of conventional types is the
>> moon is increasing on what is called the side of mercy, to the right of
>> the observer. It has 16 chief & 16 secondary rays. The card
>> represents life of the imagination apart from the life of the spirit.
>> The path between the towers is the issue into the unknown. The dog &
>> the wolf are fears of the natural mind in the presence of that place of
>> exit, when there is only reflected light to guide it [sounds rather
>> like the pursuit of magick & mysticism to me...]
>>
>> The last reference is a key to another form of symbolism. The
>> intellectual light is a reflection and beyond it is unkown mystery
>> which cannot shew forth. It illuminates our animal natures, types of
>> which are represented below - the dog, the wolf & that which comes up
>> out of the deeps, nameless & hideous tendency which is the lower beast.
>> It strives to attain manifestation, symbolized by crawling from the
>> abyss of water to the land, but as a rule it sinks back whence it came.
>> The face of the mind directs a calm gaza upon the unrest below; the
>> dew of thought falls; the message is: Peace, be still; & it may be that
>> there shall come a calm upon the animal nature, while the abyss beneath
>> shall cease from giving form.
>
> Like most of Waite's writing, that is way too judgemental and limiting
> for my taste.
At this point in your development.
A
Archangel
This is not the Dark Night of the Soul. It ie merely the beginnings of
honesty.
> Every
> memory of pain from childhood to where you are now comes flooding back
> to be dealt with.
This is the beginning of the spiritual alchemy.
> You see all the faces that you've brought pain too .....and you ask
> forgiveness. You see all the faces that have hurt or harmed you, and
> you find within yourself to forgive them. You find your pain, and
> your pain finds you...
> It literally brings you to your knees.
> And when its over, a tiny light sort of shines at the end of the
> tunnel..... And you start to heal.
And this is the beginning of enlightenment.
A
Satyr
> The Crab thing crawling out of the water onto land is the part of us
> that perseveres to cross the abyss. When we successfully follow the
> unknown path to self-knowlege, cross the abyss, & intergrate the
> various parts, if we are very lucky we experience unity as the
> various peices of ourselves reunite.
Um... Small point of dogma: Crossing the abyss is not about
integrating those various parts. The integration takes place lower on
the tree and should have been complete before taking the leap from the
4th Sphere.
mika
>
> In this case the duality is that we have both the higher & lower
> natures within us.
We keep coming back to this same issue - calling part of our nature
"higher" and another part "lower" is a value judgement that I refuse to
participate in. There are many aspects of the self, they are all
NEUTRAL, not higher, lower, good, bad, whatever. They just exist.
What you do with your self, your actions, self control, will power,
choices, those are what matters.
For example:
> Using some of Waite's symbolism, the path to enlightenment is the
> unknown & the dog & the wolf are the representative of the lower
> natures who fears the unknown.
Why is fearing the unknown "lower nature"? Fear is a necessary and
important tool. It is only potentially problematic when it overpowers
your will.
> The Crab thing crawling out of the
> water onto land is the part of us that perseveres to cross the abyss.
> When we successfully follow the unknown path to self-knowlege, cross
> the abyss, & intergrate the various parts, if we are very lucky we
> experience unity as the various peices of ourselves reunite.
I'll just ditto what Satyr wrote in response to the above - all the
various parts of the self should be integrated prior to attempting to
pass the threshold of the abyss. It's qabalistic dogma, but if you're
using the symbolism of the system, best to stick to how the system is
defined, or probably easiest to just drop talking about crossing the
abyss altogether. The unity of harmonizing all aspects of the self is
different from the unity achieved on the other side of the abyss.
Amber
Sometimes the light is BRIGHT & feeling is ecstatic, like when I came
back from the brink of death & survived cancer, but OH MY WHAT A TRIP!
Or when I realized I can survive & THRIVE in spite of pretty severe
childhood trauma/not having a cushy start in life does not have to mean
you have to be a victim all of your life.
The process can take place more than once. I remember a few years ago
Tom refered me to this file when I was coping with some depression.
Being raised catholic I was open to the ideas. But my goodness this is
also one of those files that requires a filter to read between the
lines at some of the religous overtones, especially if you carry
negative feelings & connotations from mainstream religous experiences.
Reading this file really put me in touch with how even within
mainstream religous dogma, you can still find mystical knowlege &
truth, if you can establist filters that work for you.
Amber
Amber
> Amber wrote:
> >
> > In this case the duality is that we have both the higher & lower
> > natures within us.
>
> We keep coming back to this same issue - calling part of our nature
> "higher" and another part "lower" is a value judgement that I refuse to
> participate in. There are many aspects of the self, they are all
> NEUTRAL, not higher, lower, good, bad, whatever. They just exist.
> What you do with your self, your actions, self control, will power,
> choices, those are what matters.
Agreed. Perhaps I should say I feel profound LOVE for all the parts,
not judgement relative to their respective statuses. One part is not
more special than another. The labels higher & lower are just labels
that for me only describe the position on the tree of life, which
sephiroht or supernal triangle do they appear in? I certainly do not
ascribe to the idea that higher is better somehow.
> For example:
>
> > Using some of Waite's symbolism, the path to enlightenment is the
> > unknown & the dog & the wolf are the representative of the lower
> > natures who fears the unknown.
>
> Why is fearing the unknown "lower nature"? Fear is a necessary and
> important tool. It is only potentially problematic when it overpowers
> your will.
I guess there is fear & there is FEAR. How I interpret this part is
more like the fear one might feel just before initiation, the fear of
not knowing what is going to happen once you make the committment to
know yourself & pursue God/dess. It does not mean fear is problematic
or overpowering, it's just there until understanding can shed some
light & replace the ignorance with knowlege, wisdom etc. That's what I
got out if the card upon a quick intro to a version of the moon card I
am not use to. I have my own conflicts with the historical meaning
that I had been use to & I like this interp much better. I am use to
secrecy & threachery being part of the interp. As a Wiccan priestess
that is like saying to a Catholic that the representation of Jesus on
the Cross is treacherous, because the Moon is the representation of the
Mother Goddess, Binah, Sophia, Aima... (like how you interp the
Priestess card, I have trouble separating them).
I guess the fear might problematic & overwhelming if it keeps the crab
from crawling out of the water & prevents the soul from even striving
for hir true nature & keeps the spirit locked into fears about life
that are unrealisitic, illusion, maya...
> > The Crab thing crawling out of the
> > water onto land is the part of us that perseveres to cross the abyss.
> > When we successfully follow the unknown path to self-knowlege, cross
> > the abyss, & intergrate the various parts, if we are very lucky we
> > experience unity as the various peices of ourselves reunite.
>
> I'll just ditto what Satyr wrote in response to the above - all the
> various parts of the self should be integrated prior to attempting to
> pass the threshold of the abyss. It's qabalistic dogma, but if you're
> using the symbolism of the system, best to stick to how the system is
> defined, or probably easiest to just drop talking about crossing the
> abyss altogether. The unity of harmonizing all aspects of the self is
> different from the unity achieved on the other side of the abyss.
I stand corrected. I was struggling to write quickly about the ideas
that I found inspiring & I am just now really learning to grasp the
quabalistic process & structure in a meaningful way, after something
like 15 years of reading the books & working in other systems. Thanks
to you & Satyr for correcting my mistake. I have read other works
where they discussed Crossing the Abyss in terms of healing disparate
parts of the self. At the time it felt like reading Greek to me & now
I am certainly glad I did not try to that as a way of healing! I
definetely want to heed yours & ArchAngel's advise about fixing issues
before attemping the crossing & fix issues in life not with Magick as a
quick fix. It will be a while for me anyway ;)
I think I misread Waite when he discussed the abyss (when he talked
about the card crawling out of the abyss - looked to me like he was
saying the crab completed the Crossing of the Abyss), as I read what
you two wrote.
Amber
Meltdarok
"Amber" <amber...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1143657872.8...@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> mika wrote:
>> Amber wrote:
>> >
>> > In this case the duality is that we have both the higher & lower
>> > natures within us.
>>
>> We keep coming back to this same issue - calling part of our nature
>> "higher" and another part "lower" is a value judgement that I refuse to
>> participate in. There are many aspects of the self, they are all
>> NEUTRAL, not higher, lower, good, bad, whatever. They just exist.
>> What you do with your self, your actions, self control, will power,
>> choices, those are what matters.
>
> Agreed. Perhaps I should say I feel profound LOVE for all the parts,
> not judgement relative to their respective statuses. One part is not
> more special than another. The labels higher & lower are just labels
> that for me only describe the position on the tree of life, which
> sephiroht or supernal triangle do they appear in? I certainly do not
> ascribe to the idea that higher is better somehow.
>
>> For example:
>>
>> > Using some of Waite's symbolism, the path to enlightenment is the
>> > unknown & the dog & the wolf are the representative of the lower
>> > natures who fears the unknown.
>>
>> Why is fearing the unknown "lower nature"? Fear is a necessary and
>> important tool. It is only potentially problematic when it overpowers
>> your will.
>
It is "lower nature" not that it fears the unknown, but rather that part of
us we still carry within that crawled out of the ocean onto land.
> I guess there is fear & there is FEAR. How I interpret this part is
> more like the fear one might feel just before initiation, the fear of
> not knowing what is going to happen once you make the committment to
> know yourself & pursue God/dess. It does not mean fear is problematic
> or overpowering, it's just there until understanding can shed some
> light & replace the ignorance with knowlege, wisdom etc. That's what I
> got out if the card upon a quick intro to a version of the moon card I
> am not use to. I have my own conflicts with the historical meaning
> that I had been use to & I like this interp much better. I am use to
> secrecy & threachery being part of the interp. As a Wiccan priestess
> that is like saying to a Catholic that the representation of Jesus on
> the Cross is treacherous, because the Moon is the representation of the
> Mother Goddess, Binah, Sophia, Aima... (like how you interp the
> Priestess card, I have trouble separating them).
>
> I guess the fear might problematic & overwhelming if it keeps the crab
> from crawling out of the water & prevents the soul from even striving
> for hir true nature & keeps the spirit locked into fears about life
> that are unrealisitic, illusion, maya...
>
>> > The Crab thing crawling out of the
>> > water onto land is the part of us that perseveres to cross the abyss.
>> > When we successfully follow the unknown path to self-knowlege, cross
>> > the abyss, & intergrate the various parts, if we are very lucky we
>> > experience unity as the various peices of ourselves reunite.
>>
You pick it up, and get on the bus. (Don't forget to say "hi" to the
busdriver)
>> I'll just ditto what Satyr wrote in response to the above - all the
>> various parts of the self should be integrated prior to attempting to
>> pass the threshold of the abyss. It's qabalistic dogma, but if you're
>> using the symbolism of the system, best to stick to how the system is
>> defined, or probably easiest to just drop talking about crossing the
>> abyss altogether. The unity of harmonizing all aspects of the self is
>> different from the unity achieved on the other side of the abyss.
>
> I stand corrected. I was struggling to write quickly about the ideas
> that I found inspiring & I am just now really learning to grasp the
> quabalistic process & structure in a meaningful way, after something
> like 15 years of reading the books & working in other systems. Thanks
> to you & Satyr for correcting my mistake. I have read other works
> where they discussed Crossing the Abyss in terms of healing disparate
> parts of the self. At the time it felt like reading Greek to me & now
> I am certainly glad I did not try to that as a way of healing! I
> definetely want to heed yours & ArchAngel's advise about fixing issues
> before attemping the crossing & fix issues in life not with Magick as a
> quick fix. It will be a while for me anyway ;)
>
> I think I misread Waite when he discussed the abyss (when he talked
> about the card crawling out of the abyss - looked to me like he was
> saying the crab completed the Crossing of the Abyss), as I read what
> you two wrote.
>
> Amber
>
--
meltdarok
http://hometown.aol.com/meltdarok/
Karipidu Marianna
"Archangel" <Arch...@nulldev.com> wrote in message
news:swtWf.237939$Mh4.1...@fe02.news.easynews.com...
Oh men! You lost your hope because you lost your
way in the darkness. That is the dark night of the
soul!
Satyr
> I think I misread Waite when he discussed the abyss (when he talked
> about the card crawling out of the abyss - looked to me like he was
> saying the crab completed the Crossing of the Abyss), as I read what
> you two wrote.
You're welcome.
I see what you mean, now. Waite says something about the thing
crawling out of the "watery abyss".
mika
Meltdarok wrote:
> > mika wrote:
> >> Why is fearing the unknown "lower nature"? Fear is a necessary and
> >> important tool. It is only potentially problematic when it overpowers
> >> your will.
>
> It is "lower nature" not that it fears the unknown, but rather that part of
> us we still carry within that crawled out of the ocean onto land.
Thank you, that explains a lot. Personally I will still try to avoid
using loaded words like 'lower' and 'higher' but it makes more sense to
me now.
mika
>
> I was struggling to write quickly about the ideas
> that I found inspiring & I am just now really learning to grasp the
> quabalistic process & structure in a meaningful way, after something
> like 15 years of reading the books & working in other systems.
Grasping qabala in a meaningful way is a continuous process, especially
when trying to verbalize some burst of inspiration. It's not like one
day you're no longer a "beginner" and no longer benefit from discussing
these ideas with others. Every now and then I still go off on some
trip and a friend will say 'hey wait a minute' and bring me back to the
basic structure and symbolism of the tree of life. That's why it can
be so useful to talk to people - when you're wrapped up in a new idea
it's hard to get perspective. It doesn't mean the inspired trip isn't
valid or good, it just means the way the new ideas are being
represented *qabalistically* may not make sense.
For example, with me, for a long time I was confusing the "emotions" of
Yesod with the "feelings" of Netzach (and I still am not sure which I
should call feelings and which I should call emotions). I had some
moments of inspiration, got totally lost in it all, and then could not
figure out why there were inconsistencies or contradictions when I
tried to translate these ideas onto the tree. A friend told me "What
you're talking about is Netzach, not Yesod (or vice versa)" and it
started to make more sense. But I could not figure this out myself,
and I still get confused, because the inspired ideas were not
specifically qabalistic. So here we are discussing different versions
and interpretations of a tarot card, some of which may be based on any
number of versions of qabala, some of which may not be based on qabala
at all. We have to watch out for trying to fit them all into one
system.
> I have read other works
> where they discussed Crossing the Abyss in terms of healing disparate
> parts of the self. At the time it felt like reading Greek to me & now
> I am certainly glad I did not try to that as a way of healing!
A basic description of the qabalistic path: As you work up the tree,
through each path and sephira, you are examining, healing, balancing,
integrating each of the parts of your self that those paths and
sephirot represent. Theoretically, by the time one works through
Chesed, one has healed all the different parts of the self and has
formed a strong, unified, perfected whole. In a way, this person at
the threshold of the Abyss is at the absolute height of their power.
Now comes the challenge - to give up everything, to give up this
Perfected Self, ego, personality, and all the power that comes with
it, to give up with every ounce of your being your whole entire life
and everything you've accomplished, in order to jump across that veil
into the supernals. I won't get into the theories of what happens on
the other side, what's important to understand is that all the work
facing and healing the self happens below that Abyss.
However, to complicate things further, often each sephira is symbolized
with a mini tree inside it, like a fractal. There are lots of abysses
one works through while travelling the tree. But instead of giving up
your whole unified self in order to cross them, you are just giving up
parts of your self that relate to the particular issue you are dealing
with. For example, in Yesod, where we face the beliefs we have that
form the Foundation of our reality, one might discover that their
entire current existence and sense of self is based on stupid crap that
their parents instilled in them as a child. "Crossing the abyss in
Yesod" (I normally wouldn't use those words, to avoid confusion, but
I'm trying to make a point...) and leaving those beliefs and your
previous self behind, as you know, can be extremely difficult. But it
is necessary to *totally and absolutely* give up the old beliefs about
your self in order to create a new one, even if you don't know what
that new self is going to look like on the other side. It is a leap of
trust and faith, but it must be done completely without clinging to
*any* of what's left behind. Anyway, my point is, there is some truth
in the idea that one must cross an abyss to heal oneself, but it is
different from "the Abyss", and just using that language is confusing
and tricky.
PS- Satyr, ahhh the crab crawling from watery abyss, that must refer to
Binah. I get it now, thanks.
Karipidu Marianna
> Rosifer wrote:
> > Calla wrote:
> > > the Moon trump
> > >
> > > I was wondering if that was an eclipse ( Solar) showing on the moon
> > > card?....where the moon passes between the Earth and the Sun.
> >
> > I assume you are talking about the image on the Waite deck.
> >
> > Personally, I don't think it is an eclipse. Waite doesn't mention
> > anything about an eclipse. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that it
> > is intended to portray a Sun and Moon though.
> >
> > I think it is more likely that it is showing the phases of the moon. He
> > does mention something about that, and he also makes it quite clear in
> > what direction it is heading. In the Thoth deck Crowley says it is a
> > waning Moon. The reason for this apparent discrepancy might make a good
> > subject for discussion amongst the Tarot experts here.
>
> (page 140 Pictorial Key to the Tarot by Waite)
>
> The discussion between this card & some of conventional types is the
> moon is increasing on what is called the side of mercy, to the right of
> the observer. It has 16 chief & 16 secondary rays. The card
> represents life of the imagination apart from the life of the spirit.
> The path between the towers is the issue into the unknown.
Why did Waite use the word ISSUE and not
ENTRANCE? Why did he say "the path between
the towers is the issue into the unknown"? Why
didn't he say "the path between the towers is
the entrance to the unknown"? Why?
Page 83 (The Empress). Waite says: The card
of the Empress signifies the door or gate by
which an entrance is obtained into this life, as
into the Garden of Venus; and then the way
which leads out therefrom, into that which is
beyond, is the secret known to the High Priestess.
The High Priestess seems to be the evening
(vrady), and the Moon seems to be the dark
night (nycta,nykta, nyhta).
> The dog &
> the wolf are fears of the natural mind in the presence of that place of
> exit, when there is only reflected light to guide it [sounds rather
> like the pursuit of magick & mysticism to me...]
>
> The last reference is a key to another form of symbolism. The
> intellectual light is a reflection and beyond it is unkown mystery
> which cannot shew forth. It illuminates our animal natures, types of
> which are represented below - the dog, the wolf & that which comes up
> out of the deeps, nameless & hideous tendency which is the lower beast.
> It strives to attain manifestation, symbolized by crawling from the
> abyss of water to the land, but as a rule it sinks back whence it came.
> The face of the mind directs a calm gaza upon the unrest below; the
> dew of thought falls; the message is: Peace, be still; & it may be that
> there shall come a calm upon the animal nature, while the abyss beneath
> shall cease from giving form.
>
> > > the trump to me suggests the great power of the great unconscious
> > > within us......just wondering if this is what this card is showing to
> > > others. Calla
>
> You sure said it more succintly!
>
> Amber
>
al-Ghazzi
I have respect for Mika's interpretation with regards to taming our
animal and predatory natures in the Moon Trump vis-a-vis the wolf and
dog. I don't think your claiming the card to be about secrecy and
treachery to be entirely off-base either.
In retrospect Calla's quips in this thread are very subtle, and there
is a reason she didn't respond to my offering to Rosifer.
"The person who seems normal and plays the perfect soul, when in fact,
the heart of the being is missing or black as night. Your Ted Bundy's
of the world."
-Calla
In my view the card is rife with political overtones, and from the
vantage of Pagans with the want to usurp Papal control; but fear of
witch burnings has none to do with it. It's about allowing
Judćic-Christians to effectively kill off themselves.
Take into consideration what King Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 9:4;
"For a living dog fareth better than a dead lion."
Treachery? Quite. Christian infiltration to set Pagans against Pagans.
Best watch that Calla. She'll have you camp in the astral's illusion
of soul.
To sum up: My initial initiatory interpretation of the Moon Atu
stands.
Amber
> "Amber" <amber...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1143657872.8...@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > mika wrote:
> >> Amber wrote:
> >> Why is fearing the unknown "lower nature"? Fear is a necessary and
> >> important tool. It is only potentially problematic when it overpowers
> >> your will.
>
> It is "lower nature" not that it fears the unknown, but rather that part of
> us we still carry within that crawled out of the ocean onto land.
Now I am struggling.
Waite said
"The dog & the wolf are fears of the natural mind in the presence of
the place of exit, when there is only reflected light."
&
"It [the intellectual light] illuminates our animal nature, types of
which are represented below-the dog, the wolf & that which comes up out
of the deep..."
Are you saying the lower nature is simply representative of the part we
still carry within that crawled out of the ocean? Where does the fear
fit in? Or does the lower Nature fear Itself?
Sorry if I am being thick. I am pretty excited right now. Just before
I started reading & writing in alt.magick today, an agency just called
to offer me a 1 year Eng. contract *without interview* for a decent
paying contract that I am not sure I want & my sister let me know there
is some money that belongs to me in state fund for unclaimed moneys. I
did not even work any $ magick, at least not consciously ;)
Thanks,
Amber
Calla
It was "The dark night of the soul" for me, archangel...I know cause I
went through it! It brings you to your knees in everyway. No offense
to the book ( never read it), but I know what I experienced. I think
it is a process that is as unique as each individual. Calla
Amber
> On 29 Mar 2006 10:44:32 -0800, "Amber" <amber...@yahoo.com> wrote:
SNIP
> In my view the card is rife with political overtones, and from the
> vantage of Pagans with the want to usurp Papal control; but fear of
> witch burnings has none to do with it. It's about allowing
> Judæic-Christians to effectively kill off themselves.
>
> Take into consideration what King Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 9:4;
> "For a living dog fareth better than a dead lion."
>
> Treachery? Quite. Christian infiltration to set Pagans against Pagans.
This is similar to how I resolved my own issues with the Moon card
being related to secrecy & treachery, & where duality and point of view
became a part in the explanation, but not about Waite's deck. This is
from the Art Nouveau deck. & I was viewing this as history that could
possibly replay itself. Right now I am involved in a case where a
little boy was taken/kidnapped from his natural pagan father, by a
Mormon step father. For a while it looked like the courts were going
to uphold the Mormon's position because they did not like the
*Paganess* of the child's natural family.
It also seems like the *content* of the Moon card in the Thoth deck is
similar to the content in Rider-Waite Moon card, but the perceptions or
feelings arising from looking at the two cards were different.
I don't hold with "allowing Judæic-Christians to effectively kill off
themselves' either. Can you elaborate? Is this like what's happeneing
in the Middle East right now, & simply a political comment?
I have also heard lately from Masonic types that the powers that be are
actually fostering the growth of Pagan religions now, because the
powers that be are trying to tear down the old conventional religions
is favor of these newer types of religions which they view as
non-secular...
Some of us Pagans do not want to overthrow the Pope. In a really
uncanny way I was quite attached to John Paul & felt absolutely
COMPELLED to watch his funeral. Not sure what I think about God's
Rottweiler though ;)
I would like to see some unity & acceptance occur between the differing
religions though. It is a shame everyone has to believe their game is
the only one in town worth playing, since souls hunger for God/dess,
not all the trappings.
A friend just called. She started talking about Tarot so I told her
about this discussion. Now this performing friend wants to sit down &
play with all of our decks to practise readings. I believe she reads
for money. Not me, I read for the learning.
Thanks for this discussion,
Amber
Calla
> "The person who seems normal and plays the perfect soul, when in fact,
> the heart of the being is missing or black as night. Your Ted Bundy's
> of the world."
>
> -Calla
>
> In my view the card is rife with political overtones, and from the
> vantage of Pagans with the want to usurp Papal control; but fear of
> witch burnings has none to do with it. It's about allowing
> Judæic-Christians to effectively kill off themselves.
>
> Take into consideration what King Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 9:4;
> "For a living dog fareth better than a dead lion."
>
> Treachery? Quite. Christian infiltration to set Pagans against Pagans.
>
> Best watch that Calla. She'll have you camp in the astral's illusion
> of soul.
>
what do you mean? Calla
mika
Amber wrote:
> I am pretty excited right now. Just before
> I started reading & writing in alt.magick today, an agency just called
> to offer me a 1 year Eng. contract *without interview* for a decent
> paying contract that I am not sure I want & my sister let me know there
> is some money that belongs to me in state fund for unclaimed moneys.
Congrats!
> I did not even work any $ magick, at least not consciously ;)
When you work on your self, everything else in life seems to fall into
place. At least that's how it's worked for me.
Satyr
> PS- Satyr, ahhh the crab crawling from watery abyss, that must refer
> to Binah. I get it now, thanks.
Eh...sort of. I'm tempted to say it ties in more with Meltdarock's
comment, about our carrying around that part of us that crawled out of
the ocean.
Then again, oceans most assuredly tie in with Binah. But I think here,
the crustacean in question represents life emerging from an
inhospitable environment, an ocean in the sense of the "watery grave".
In Crowley's Book of Thoth, he turned the crayfish into Khephra, the
sacred dung beetle, who rolls the ball of the sun through the
underworld each night.
Binah, being across the Abyss, is symbolized sometimes as an ocean,
but there the image is dual, both life and death, womb and tomb,
opposite sides of one phenomenon. Here, in The Moon, the water is
hostile and barren. It is the 'lowest' manifestation of Luna and
likewise the 'lowest' symbolism of a "watery abyss".
Crowley associated The Moon with menstruation: dark moon, witch moon,
with a strong sense of taboo, sterile, illusory.
al-Ghazzi
>Meltdarok wrote:
>> "Amber" <amber...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1143657872.8...@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> > mika wrote:
>> >> Amber wrote:
>
>> >> Why is fearing the unknown "lower nature"? Fear is a necessary and
>> >> important tool. It is only potentially problematic when it overpowers
>> >> your will.
>>
>> It is "lower nature" not that it fears the unknown, but rather that part of
>> us we still carry within that crawled out of the ocean onto land.
>
>Now I am struggling.
>
>Waite said
>"The dog & the wolf are fears of the natural mind in the presence of
>the place of exit, when there is only reflected light."
>&
>"It [the intellectual light] illuminates our animal nature, types of
>which are represented below-the dog, the wolf & that which comes up out
>of the deep..."
>
>Are you saying the lower nature is simply representative of the part we
>still carry within that crawled out of the ocean? Where does the fear
>fit in? Or does the lower Nature fear Itself?
"Natural mind" is a semantic play on words by Waite to refer to the
mind as it is made up of matter; i.e. soul. Where he states the dog
and wolf represent the fears of the natural mind he does not mean the
natural mind fears itself, but rather the initiate tends to fear both
the unknown and becoming unattached to the 'illusion' of the
relinquishment of the natural mind.
The "exit" is the method; by reflecting the light to shine upon itself
(in the astral's illusion of soul specifically but this true to the
very first realm evidenced as well). Every transition unto another
state of consciousness is treated in the same way. In no matter what
altered state, the environment is an illusionary projection. To
experience all altered states the projections are neutralized by
willfully causing them to fall upon themselves, which generally is to
be directed to a certain are within one's own physiological reference.
Chakras in procession are is a good idea.
The attempt in Waite's and Crowley's Moon Atus is to give the astral
traveler a clear and concise metaphysical model by which to gauge
territory for transcendence. The entire Tree of Life must be traversed
by the astral traveler to get to soul, then again to transcend matter
and maya states as they exist in their true conditions.
Obviously one who meditates in a formal fashion only travels one Tree
of Life. They still can learn much from Waite's and Crowley's Moon
Atus though.
>Sorry if I am being thick.
Not at all. These are matters not frequently talked about,
unfortunately.
>I am pretty excited right now. Just before
>I started reading & writing in alt.magick today, an agency just called
>to offer me a 1 year Eng. contract *without interview* for a decent
>paying contract that I am not sure I want & my sister let me know there
>is some money that belongs to me in state fund for unclaimed moneys. I
>did not even work any $ magick, at least not consciously ;)
>
>Thanks,
>
>Amber
Congrats!
mika
Satyr wrote:
(snipped...)
Alright, getting clearer.
The "bottom line" for me regarding the Moon card is that I can research
it endlessly, you can explain what it means to you in the greatest
detail, and I probably still won't be able to express what it means to
me. Connecting Malkuth and Netzach, where is the light of analysis?
For me, that card is felt. How does one describe fear, intuition,
instinct? It's like a physical knowledge, part of the body, or part of
the unconscious mind that disappears like smoke when I try to grasp it
consciously. But I digress... thanks for the additional info.
Calla
Hi ....could you explain this so I can understand it a bit better Al.
like Mika does. Calla
hi
Calla
heh, are You saying I'm treacherous? :( Calla
Satyr
Actually, I think that is a fine description of how the card feels.
Have you ever been on intimate terms with a Pisces? It's a lot like
what you describe.
Calla
Satyr wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 14:42:39 -0800, mika wrote:
>
> >
> > Satyr wrote:
> > (snipped...)
> >
> > Alright, getting clearer.
> >
> > The "bottom line" for me regarding the Moon card is that I can
> > research it endlessly, you can explain what it means to you in the
> > greatest detail, and I probably still won't be able to express what
> > it means to me. Connecting Malkuth and Netzach, where is the light
> > of analysis? For me, that card is felt. How does one describe fear,
> > intuition, instinct? It's like a physical knowledge, part of the
> > body, or part of the unconscious mind that disappears like smoke
> > when I try to grasp it consciously. But I digress... thanks for the
> > additional info.
>
Calla raises hand. Satyr.... "in the astral's illusion of soul "
what does that mean?
mika
Satyr wrote:
> mika wrote:
>
> > The "bottom line" for me regarding the Moon card is that I can
> > research it endlessly, you can explain what it means to you in the
> > greatest detail, and I probably still won't be able to express what
> > it means to me. Connecting Malkuth and Netzach, where is the light
> > of analysis? For me, that card is felt. How does one describe fear,
> > intuition, instinct? It's like a physical knowledge, part of the
> > body, or part of the unconscious mind that disappears like smoke
> > when I try to grasp it consciously. But I digress... thanks for the
> > additional info.
>
> Actually, I think that is a fine description of how the card feels.
> Have you ever been on intimate terms with a Pisces? It's a lot like
> what you describe.
I have never dated a Pisces and there are none in my family. I am good
friends with only one, a circle sister, and though we've done ritual
together for 12 years she is still a strange mystery to me. From what
I've read, being a Virgo, with Pisces at the directly opposite position
on the wheel so to speak, it is "supposed to be" a somewhat alien
energy to me (no Pisces in my chart either.)
Wait a minute, I did date a Pisces once, for a couple of months. But
he was insecure and possessive, which overrides any subtle astrological
personality influences that I may otherwise have noticed ;)
Brett
of the thread.
A lot of symbolism and interpretation flying about. I'm forced to
remind people that Symbols mean different things to different people.
Symbols do not have one fixed meaning to all people. When people say
"So-and-so says that it means X", it is only of some little help to
us. And they're essentially admitting that they haven't bothered to
interpret it for themselves, but are too wrapped up in what others
think.
That being said, I'll do a little of the same. ;-)
The I Ching analogy would be The Well (Hexagram 48).
Wilhelm talks a bit about this in his book, Understanding the I Ching.
I've snipped a few bits of relevance here;
++
Not everyone can fetch his own water. There are people for whom it
must be done. They live by and are sustained by customs. This is good
and proper. They belong to the multitude and we must not condemn them.
There are, however, others who are destined to give life; they, so to
speak, draw from the well. To such people we should belong. Therefore,
our responsibility is that the rope reaches the bottom. We must be
thorough and absolutely truthful. We must penetrate that which is
apparently only so and be satisfied with nothing less - may it loom
ever so large - than with the actual source of life.
This is hard and sorrowful work. If customs and habits were to satisfy
us, life would be easy. We would do as other do, and what happens to
others, happens to us also. We have no problems, nor the hurt of
isolation. But if we are driven by unquenchable thirst to draw at the
spring, nothing else will suffice and we have to pay the price.
Everything in this world has its price, including drawing life at the
spring. The price is suffering; suffering that necessarily guards the
gate there, where an individual reaches the titanic decision to break
through beyond what all think and do, and to face eternity.
In addition to thoroughnes, practicing perseverance is also important,
for the jug must not break. Now we face mysteries, revelations and, to
be sure, many frightful things. Life is not as simple as people think
it is. In the well are dangerous animals. For is not the water at once
the image of danger? Only the person who perseveres in danger
continues neither hastily nor fearfully to penetrate until he has
passed the threshhold's guardian; only that person who faces hardships
does not break the jug. And therefore, only that person may raise life
into daylight.
[...]
Our task, therefore, is not to permit the effort to vex us. No matter
how we are disappointed, we must try to start again.
[...]
The person whom God intends to be great and whom he entrusts with a
mission is first thoroughly tormented. God opposes him and obstructs
his plans. God tires his body and persecutes him with sickness and
with pain. And because of this, a man's spirit becomes pliable and his
nerves strong. Such a man is able to approach life wherever he meets
it.
++
The "animals" are our personal demons, our fears, the lesser and
darker parts of us that block us and prevent us from reaching our
potential. He talks about how Confucious' idea was not to conquer
them or destroy them (indeed, in destroying them we are only
destroying bits of ourselves), but rather to tame them.
This, in my dark walk, is what I have learned. That when you treat
these aspects of yourself as demons, as monsters to be battled, they
gain strength and weapons against you. The conflict will NEVER end.
So, in Penetrating the Well (Crossing the Abyss), the trick is to
recognize the Animals, Monsters and Demons for what they are.
YOU.
(In the I Ching analogy, these are the 'toes', spoken of in many
hexagrams.)
And to, in complete and objective Honesty and Sincerity, learn how to
deal with those aspects of yourself. To accept them, to forgive them
(and yourself for harboring them), to put them in their proper place
within yourself.
Let the great be great, let the small be small.
Amber
Okay, now I want to ask another question that has been bothering me.
Your explanation reminds me of something that has been distracting me
when I read Quabalistic works. I think I might be missing some subtle
point(s)...
How does the Quabala define the difference between Soul & Spirit?
Growing up Catholic the two words seemed to be used interchangeably to
mean the essence of a life which continues to exist after after death.
I tend to read with that definition in mind, but I get the feeling
there is more to it from an Occult standpoint. In some cases I get the
idea it's almost like the Soul is considered discrete, matter based &
belongs to a single entity? But the Spirit is more like *the Force*
from Star Wars, all encompassing & something that all lives share in &
are part of????
Am I on the right track?
Thanks for the clear explanation below,
Amber
al-Ghazzi wrote:
> Amber wrote:
> >Meltdarok wrote:
SNIP
WaterWalker
> Removed alt.Tarot because my question is not about the cards.
>
> Okay, now I want to ask another question that has been bothering me.
> Your explanation reminds me of something that has been distracting me
> when I read Quabalistic works. I think I might be missing some subtle
> point(s)...
>
> How does the Quabala define the difference between Soul & Spirit?
> Growing up Catholic the two words seemed to be used interchangeably to
> mean the essence of a life which continues to exist after after death.
> I tend to read with that definition in mind, but I get the feeling
> there is more to it from an Occult standpoint. In some cases I get the
> idea it's almost like the Soul is considered discrete, matter based &
> belongs to a single entity? But the Spirit is more like *the Force*
> from Star Wars, all encompassing & something that all lives share in &
> are part of????
>
> Am I on the right track?
>
> Thanks for the clear explanation below,
Hi Amber,
To me the soul is emotion based. It can shape change, like a container.
It can be elemental, it can be any shape you or it wants, it takes on
form that you give the pattern to, and it can teach you patterns that it
knows.
The spirit is the energy that fills that container. It too can shape
change but its full inside.
When I wrote this to you I get the image of the soul as being almost
void like in material. Shaping, emanating, creating and manifesting.
The spirit is like the spark of life flowing down the tree, down the
paths, sephiroth to sephiroth, like liquid.
The soul, could be the sephiroth collecting the liquid, and acting out
the role of the sephiroth for that liquid to act in. Catching, shaping
the experience, and moving from active to passive, passive to active,
passing on the energy of spirit and collecting the energy.
The soul teaches you how to climb the trees, with lessons of the souls
shaping you as you catch that energy in its different forms. The spirit
energizes you as you go.
al-Ghazzi
>Removed alt.Tarot because my question is not about the cards.
>
>Okay, now I want to ask another question that has been bothering me.
>Your explanation reminds me of something that has been distracting me
>when I read Quabalistic works. I think I might be missing some subtle
>point(s)...
>
>How does the Quabala define the difference between Soul & Spirit?
Ironically enough, spirit isn't addressed in its own right at all in
the _Zohar_. Soul is divided into five distinct classifications
arranged throughout the Tree of Life. There's a bit of continual
controversy about this very issue. Had the astral-traveling Merkabah
Mystics made a great miss?
For the purposes of this group soul generally is denoted to Ruach.
Spirit to Chayyah. God is Yehidah..but..I'm not a believer.
>Growing up Catholic the two words seemed to be used interchangeably to
>mean the essence of a life which continues to exist after death.
> I tend to read with that definition in mind, but I get the feeling
>there is more to it from an Occult standpoint. In some cases I get the
>idea it's almost like the Soul is considered discrete, matter based &
>belongs to a single entity? But the Spirit is more like *the Force*
>from Star Wars, all encompassing & something that all lives share in &
>are part of????
Soul states too are all-encompassing, but the two states combined are
the source of both humanity's and one's sole psycho-physiological
nature. Soul is of the linear present.
Spirit is a fusion of all aspects of time ( i.e. past, present and
future) that forms non-linear multi-dimensions. It's all-encompassing;
and is the source of one's divine mind and its psychological nature.
Human physiology in one body or a multitude of bodies here isn't
relevant.
It's argued in more than just a few metaphysical doctrines spanning
the globe that unless the spirit is consciously realized then one is
bound by the laws of matter, and after death, is born again in and
among matter. In which case soul amasses more memories for our
distinct psycho-physiological signatures. Before passage from soul to
spirit we're required to witness all of our incarnations and chose to
annihilate our human signatures. Doing so gives access to our
præter-human signatures.
Thelemic Kabbalah.
Your Catholic mentors were correct about soul continuing to exist
after death, but deviously so, in my opinion. I mean no offense now.
>Am I on the right track?
Yep. :)
>Thanks for the clear explanation below,
>Amber
You're welcome. I was multi-tasking when I wrote that post and botched
it up a wee bit. I'll clear up the major points that weren't so clear.
:)
*To experience all altered states the projections are neutralized by
willfully causing them to fall upon themselves, which generally is to
be directed to a certain point within one's own physiological
reference. Chakras in procession [as one transcends each state of
consciousness within the astral] is a good idea.*
Meltdarok
"WaterWalker" <WalksonWater_saynotospam@shaw.> wrote in message
news:CXLWf.201496$H%4.69480@pd7tw2no...
Relax. Burn your favorite incense. Let it be 10:00pm.
Play some music at low volume, I like Yes, "Fragile."
Close your eyes and meditate in the room next to
where your altar is visible through the door.
--
meltdarok
http://hometown.aol.com/meltdarok/
Archangel
"Karipidu Marianna" <kari...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Y9SdnU-gnNm...@comcast.com...
Only in a certain respect.
A
Archangel
What you experienced was profound certainly, Dark I have no doubt, and
soul-destroying. You can call it whatever you want but it was not the Dark
Night of the Soul as understood by the few. Read the damn book and find out
what you are talking about.
A
>
Satyr
>
> Satyr wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 14:42:39 -0800, mika wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Satyr wrote:
>> > (snipped...)
>> >
>> > Alright, getting clearer.
>> >
>> > The "bottom line" for me regarding the Moon card is that I can
>> > research it endlessly, you can explain what it means to you in
>> > the greatest detail, and I probably still won't be able to
>> > express what it means to me. Connecting Malkuth and Netzach,
>> > where is the light of analysis? For me, that card is felt. How
>> > does one describe fear, intuition, instinct? It's like a physical
>> > knowledge, part of the body, or part of the unconscious mind that
>> > disappears like smoke when I try to grasp it consciously. But I
>> > digress... thanks for the additional info.
>
> Calla raises hand. Satyr.... "in the astral's illusion of soul "
> what does that mean?
I think that was al-Ghazzi, not me.
Depends on what we mean by "soul", if there is such a thing. My guess
is that he means the reflection of yourself - spiritually as opposed
to bodily - on the astral plain. It is an illusion, because you are
ultimately the witness of everything you experience. Whatever you see
taking place out there is not really you, even though your mind might
identify it as you.
Satyr
Pisces is highly reflective, yet what is reflected is not readily
identifiable as you. I've got into some hellacious arguments with a
Pisces, only to discover that ultimately, I was only fighting myself.
Mysterious indeed. This is all rank superstition, I know, but in my
experience, a Pisces will treat you pretty much exactly as you treat
them - problematic for a volatile, triple Sag like me.
Karipidu Marianna
> >> >> Rosifer
Yeah, and, only in certain men, i.e. the men who
don't feel confident and sure of themselves. If
they don't believe in themselves, in their abilities,
they will give up. And, where will they end up?
Who knows?
Angel,
Can you imagine how Al Smith could feel, if he
were confronted by a burglar carrying a gun?
Can you imagine how Al Smith could react
in that situation?
Amber
SNIP
> Pisces is highly reflective, yet what is reflected is not readily
> identifiable as you. I've got into some hellacious arguments with a
> Pisces, only to discover that ultimately, I was only fighting myself.
> Mysterious indeed. This is all rank superstition, I know, but in my
> experience, a Pisces will treat you pretty much exactly as you treat
> them - problematic for a volatile, triple Sag like me.
Hum, I am triple Sag. & I love Pisces folk. Even the one that called
me last night at 2:30AM because she was in great pain & was trying to
figure out if she needed to go to the hospital...
In fact for the most part I think water signs are the easiest for me to
get along with, probably on the emotional level. Maybe the difference
is that there is bunches of water in my horoscope as well as the triple
fire in Sag. Maybe like Mika, you are not water oriented in your natal?
Possibly more air aspects are present?
Amber
Satyr
Oh, I get along with them just fine; it can just be a bit of a
challenge sometimes.
Al Smith
> don't feel confident and sure of themselves. If
> they don't believe in themselves, in their abilities,
> they will give up. And, where will they end up?
> Who knows?
>
> Angel,
>
> Can you imagine how Al Smith could feel, if he
> were confronted by a burglar carrying a gun?
> Can you imagine how Al Smith could react
> in that situation?
Sort of like James Bond -- I'd be a little shaken, but my emotions
would not be particularly stirred. As long as I had Marianna to
crouch behind, I'm sure everything would work out fine.
Karipidu Marianna
"Satyr" <saty...@NoPressedPighotmail.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.03.29....@NoPressedPighotmail.com...
> On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:17:40 -0800, mika wrote:
>
> > PS- Satyr, ahhh the crab crawling from watery abyss, that must refer
> > to Binah. I get it now, thanks.
>
> Eh...sort of. I'm tempted to say it ties in more with Meltdarock's
> comment, about our carrying around that part of us that crawled out of
> the ocean.
>
> Then again, oceans most assuredly tie in with Binah.
The Ocean symbolizes knowledge, a source of
knowledge.
The wolf symbolizes an enemy or danger.
The dog symbolizes an enemy or danger when
it barks.
The crab is not a good omen. It symbolizes
hypocritical and treacherous friends.
The full moon symbolizes eros, erotic emotions,
and the half-moon, (crescent) symbolizes
disagreement, quarrel...
Calla
Karipidu Marianna wrote:
> "Satyr" <saty...@NoPressedPighotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2006.03.29....@NoPressedPighotmail.com...
> > On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:17:40 -0800, mika wrote:
> >
> > > PS- Satyr, ahhh the crab crawling from watery abyss, that must refer
> > > to Binah. I get it now, thanks.
> >
> > Eh...sort of. I'm tempted to say it ties in more with Meltdarock's
> > comment, about our carrying around that part of us that crawled out of
> > the ocean.
> >
> > Then again, oceans most assuredly tie in with Binah.
>
> The Ocean symbolizes knowledge, a source of
> knowledge.
>
the term sea of spirit. The crab is a astrological sign for the sign
cancer which rules the moon. It is crawling up from the depths of the
sea...but if you notice it is on a path that goes right between two
pillars. The path I think is what you call "the path of Knowledge". I
think that leads to wisdom and understanding.
> The wolf symbolizes an enemy or danger.
I don't think so marianna...I think the dog is man ( domesticated) but
still with basic animal instincts. The wolf I think is Nature. All
creatures are all tied to the earth, its atmosphere and the cycles of
the Moon through the unconscious.
The Moon effects the tides of the oceans....it effects the creatures
within it.....we are 80 percent water maybe it effects us too.
> The dog symbolizes an enemy or danger when
> it barks.
>
> The crab is not a good omen. It symbolizes
> hypocritical and treacherous friends.
>
the crab is the symbol for cancer. Calla
Al Smith
> knowledge.
>
> The wolf symbolizes an enemy or danger.
> The dog symbolizes an enemy or danger when
> it barks.
>
> The crab is not a good omen. It symbolizes
> hypocritical and treacherous friends.
>
> The full moon symbolizes eros, erotic emotions,
> and the half-moon, (crescent) symbolizes
> disagreement, quarrel...
The trump the Moon concerns the dark impulses that arise from the
depths of the unconscious mind, over which we have no conscious
control, and often no awareness.
The time setting of the card is night, the period of darkness when
the consciousness sleeps, and dreams. It is the time of
concealment of sins and dark deeds that must remain hidden.
The body of water is not the sea but a stagnant pool in most Tarot
decks. The creature rising from its depths represents stealthy and
concealed malice, an emerging danger that is unforeseen. It
threatens with its claws, but is ignored by the two dogs.
Originally both animals on the sides of the path were dogs,
because the dog is the beast of the moon, but some designers make
one animal a wolf.
The dogs have gone mad by catching the droplets of sweat that have
fallen from the lunar disk -- the night dew -- on their tongues.
They snap and bark wildly, making them oblivious to the danger
that creeps out of the black waters of the pool.
Their masters, two opposing military forces that occupy the
watchtowers on either side of the path, lie sleeping in their beds
and are not awakened by the barking of the dogs. Perhaps they have
all been murdered. The windows of the towers remain dark. They
sleep and dream about warfare and strife, fortified behind their
locked doors, leaving the pathway unguarded. The dogs cannot
protect the pathway because they have gone mad and quarrel with
each other.
Those who walk the path beneath the moon are threatened with
violence from either side, and with a stealthy assassin from
behind. The moon sleeps and remains unconscious of what passes
below, and indifferent to it. The unconscious mind has no
conscience. Only in the distant hills on the horizon is there hope
of safety, provided they can be reached. They rise upward from the
fen, upward from the barren plane, towards the heavens.
There are no human figures in this trump because humanity is a
function of consciousness, and consciousness does not exist in
this card. Here are only figures out of nightmare, things that
claw and snap and kill. This is the most evil card of the Tarot,
and is seldom rightly understood.
Calla
thanks Al
I had so many ways i could go with this card......I was not exactly
sure what direction to take with it.
Your post helped. Calla
Jason
Likely because it's all spelled-out for you and you can thus forget about it
without putting a damn thing that was offered in this thread to good use.
You chicks are a riot, and lazy as all get-out.
Funny shit.
Thanks, Al. :)
Satyr
>
> "Satyr" <saty...@NoPressedPighotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2006.03.29....@NoPressedPighotmail.com...
>> On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:17:40 -0800, mika wrote:
>>
>> > PS- Satyr, ahhh the crab crawling from watery abyss, that must
>> > refer to Binah. I get it now, thanks.
>>
>> Eh...sort of. I'm tempted to say it ties in more with Meltdarock's
>> comment, about our carrying around that part of us that crawled out
>> of the ocean.
>>
>> Then again, oceans most assuredly tie in with Binah.
>
> The Ocean symbolizes knowledge, a source of
> knowledge.
To an oceanographer, perhaps.
> The wolf symbolizes an enemy or danger.
I like wolves.
> The dog symbolizes an enemy or danger when
> it barks.
I like dogs, too.
> The crab is not a good omen. It symbolizes
> hypocritical and treacherous friends.
Crabs are an excellent omen actually, so are mudbugs and lobsters and
shrimp - unless of course one suffers from some sort of shellfish
allergy. Some think oysters are a good omen, but I should rather eat
snot.
Perhaps you're thinking of pubic lice?
> The full moon symbolizes eros, erotic emotions,
> and the half-moon, (crescent) symbolizes
> disagreement, quarrel...
Did you know that statistically, a woman is more likely to murder her
husband at full moon?
Joseph Littleshoes
> "Karipidu Marianna" <kari...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:Y9SdnU-gnNm...@comcast.com...
>>
>>Oh men! You lost your hope because you lost your
>>way in the darkness. That is the dark night of the
>>soul!
>
>
>
> Only in a certain respect.
>
> A
>
Typical Kari, poetically the 'dark night of the soul' is about self doubt.
---
JL
>
Archangel
"Joseph Littleshoes" <jpst...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:6YbXf.10606$tN3....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
Not really, it is a little more than that, although self-doubt is certainly
one aspect.
A
Karipidu Marianna
"Satyr" <saty...@NoPressedPighotmail.com> wrote in message
> On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 18:07:11 -0500, Karipidu Marianna wrote:
>
> >
> > "Satyr" <saty...@NoPressedPighotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:pan.2006.03.29....@NoPressedPighotmail.com...
> >> On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:17:40 -0800, mika wrote:
> >>
> >> > PS- Satyr, ahhh the crab crawling from watery abyss, that must
> >> > refer to Binah. I get it now, thanks.
> >>
> >> Eh...sort of. I'm tempted to say it ties in more with Meltdarock's
> >> comment, about our carrying around that part of us that crawled out
> >> of the ocean.
> >>
> >> Then again, oceans most assuredly tie in with Binah.
> >
> > The Ocean symbolizes knowledge, a source of
> > knowledge.
> To an oceanographer, perhaps.
Perhaps Platon was right when he said that
knowledge (esoteric knowledge, internal
knowledge) is not transmitted by reading
texts but by the personal, profound contact
(the profound depths of the ocean) and,
mainly by the sudden enorasis (enorasis=
looking into). According to Platon, we
approach the "invisible world" with enorasis.
> > The wolf symbolizes an enemy or danger.
> I like wolves.
> > The dog symbolizes an enemy or danger when
> > it barks.
> I like dogs, too.
> > The crab is not a good omen. It symbolizes
> > hypocritical and treacherous friends.
> Crabs are an excellent omen actually, so are mudbugs and lobsters and
> shrimp - unless of course one suffers from some sort of shellfish
> allergy. Some think oysters are a good omen, but I should rather eat
> snot.
I like crabs. They taste good :-)
> Perhaps you're thinking of pubic lice?
I don't understand you. What do you mean
by that?
I think you don't know enough about the attributes
of each astrological sign.
> > The full moon symbolizes eros, erotic emotions,
> > and the half-moon, (crescent) symbolizes
> > disagreement, quarrel...
> Did you know that statistically, a woman is more likely to murder her
> husband at full moon?
Oh, I'm listening to the seabird crying!
Karipidu Marianna
"Joseph Littleshoes" <jpst...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:6YbXf.10606$tN3....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
Joseph, Karipidu is my name. Gee, we have to
show great patience with your behavior. You
are not learning quickly. Please learn the
letters "pidu" now.
Joseph, read this again:
Karipidu Marianna
>
> "Joseph Littleshoes" <jpst...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:6YbXf.10606$tN3....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
> > Archangel wrote:
> >
> > > "Karipidu Marianna" <kari...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > news:Y9SdnU-gnNm...@comcast.com...
> >
> > >>
> > >>Oh men! You lost your hope because you lost your
> > >>way in the darkness. That is the dark night of the
> > >>soul!
>
> > > Only in a certain respect.
>
> > > A
> > Typical Kari, poetically the 'dark night of the soul' is about self doubt.
> > ---
> > JL
>
> Joseph, Karipidu is my name. Gee, we have to
We= includes Al Smith :-)
Calla
heh Jason, before you run off at the mouth again sweetie, read my back
posts, I've put alot of thought into this card.....came up with some
very good ideas. I didn't need anything spelled out to me b-a-b-e. lol
what ever. I already know what this card means do you? Calla
No matter.
Calla
Brett wrote:
> On 28 Mar 2006 17:22:37 -0800, "Calla" <familia...@yahoo.com>
> muttered intensely:
>
> >the dark night of the soul, to me, is when you are forced to look into
> >memory of pain from childhood to where you are now comes flooding back
> >to be dealt with.
> >forgiveness. You see all the faces that have hurt or harmed you, and
> >you find within yourself to forgive them. You find your pain, and
> >your pain finds you...
> >It literally brings you to your knees.
> >And when its over, a tiny light sort of shines at the end of the
> >tunnel..... And you start to heal.
>
> >card...but Judgement comes to mind with the Dark Night of the Soul
> >cause you actually judge yourself. Calla
>
> For me too. The Judgment Card.
>
> For my experience, being at the later stages of this period, it hasn't
> been about seeing faces, or replaying every event of my life. It
> hasn't been about Others. It is all about myself.
>
> Learning how I judge myself. How I punish myself.
> Learning in great horrific detail, every fucking way that I think and
> act and AM. And being forced to face it, to deal with it, to accept
> it for what it is. To accept myself for what I am. PERIOD.
>
> Every time I fight, every time I deny, I am held fast with yellow
> oxhide (so to speak - see I Ching Hexagram 33: Retreat) and prevented
> from moving on until I figure it out.
>
> The only light at the end of the tunnel comes in the learning. In
> finally, at long last, GETTING IT and being able to move on. To stop
> hating certain aspects of myself, to stop wanting to kill those parts
> of myself that I didn't like, that I didn't want to be.
>
> It is the most painful and horrific path of Self-Acceptance possible.
>
>
> Again, that is my path and my experience. Other may have a much
> easier time of it..
>
>
> But too, it IS The Moon. Because it involves plunging deep within, to
> dredge up and deal with matters of the deep unconscious. Ideas and
> patterns and thoughts that, for many years, I did not believe
> originated in myself, because they seemed so foreign. And yet THEY
> ARE IN ME. They are part of the base pattern that underlies the
> whole, and they must be uncovered and dealt with in order to
> comprehend the whole.
hiya Brett. did you read the book? I was wondering, because you and I
both felt the we went through some kind of great but horrific
experience that forever emotionally changed us ( although different for
each) What do you think? calla
Karipidu Marianna
"Al Smith" <inv...@address.com> wrote in message
news:mC1Xf.52320$VV4.8...@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
The most evil card of the Tarot? Oh, I guess
there is a big difference between (someone)
describing the "anastenaria" and actually
(someone else) dancing on the charcoals.
Karipidu Marianna
"Al Smith" <inv...@address.com> wrote in message
news:mC1Xf.52320$VV4.8...@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
I remember someone in the past told me this:
" You are the pure lamb and outside the wolfs
and the jackals are waiting to devour you".
Everyone asked. What did he mean by that?
Oh, well, you have to think deeply to understand
it.
Karipidu Marianna
Angel, if you don't believe in yourself, if you don't
believe in your abilities, then you give up. There
is no hope. But, if you believe in yourself, there
is hope.-
Satyr
>
> "Satyr" <saty...@NoPressedPighotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2006.03.31....@NoPressedPighotmail.com...
>> On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 18:07:11 -0500, Karipidu Marianna wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > "Satyr" <saty...@NoPressedPighotmail.com> wrote in message
>> > news:pan.2006.03.29....@NoPressedPighotmail.com...
>> >> On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:17:40 -0800, mika wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > PS- Satyr, ahhh the crab crawling from watery abyss, that must
>> >> > refer to Binah. I get it now, thanks.
>> >>
>> >> Eh...sort of. I'm tempted to say it ties in more with
>> >> Meltdarock's comment, about our carrying around that part of us
>> >> that crawled out of the ocean.
>> >>
>> >> Then again, oceans most assuredly tie in with Binah.
>> >
>> > The Ocean symbolizes knowledge, a source of
>> > knowledge.
>> To an oceanographer, perhaps.
>
>
> Perhaps Platon was right when he said that
> knowledge (esoteric knowledge, internal
> knowledge) is not transmitted by reading
> texts but by the personal, profound contact
> (the profound depths of the ocean) and,
> mainly by the sudden enorasis (enorasis=
> looking into). According to Platon, we
> approach the "invisible world" with enorasis.
You're reaching with that one.
>> > The wolf symbolizes an enemy or danger.
>
>> I like wolves.
>
>
>> > The dog symbolizes an enemy or danger when
>> > it barks.
>
>> I like dogs, too.
>
>
>> > The crab is not a good omen. It symbolizes
>> > hypocritical and treacherous friends.
>
>> Crabs are an excellent omen actually, so are mudbugs and lobsters
>> and shrimp - unless of course one suffers from some sort of
>> shellfish allergy. Some think oysters are a good omen, but I should
>> rather eat snot.
>
> I like crabs. They taste good :-)
King crab and Dungeness are probably the best, but there are others.
>> Perhaps you're thinking of pubic lice?
>
>
> I don't understand you. What do you mean
> by that?
When pubic lice - colloquially known as "the crabs" in the US - show
up in a relationship, it is often an omen of treachery.
> I think you don't know enough about the attributes
> of each astrological sign.
Thinking isn't helping you much in this instance.
>> > The full moon symbolizes eros, erotic emotions,
>> > and the half-moon, (crescent) symbolizes
>> > disagreement, quarrel...
>
>> Did you know that statistically, a woman is more likely to murder
>> her husband at full moon?
>
> Oh, I'm listening to the seabird crying!
Probably a loon.
Karipidu Marianna
Thanks.
> > I think you don't know enough about the attributes
> > of each astrological sign.
> Thinking isn't helping you much in this instance.
Sorry. You spoke to me in a strange tongue
of which I understand little. Now I got what
you meant.
> >> > The full moon symbolizes eros, erotic emotions,
> >> > and the half-moon, (crescent) symbolizes
> >> > disagreement, quarrel...
> >
> >> Did you know that statistically, a woman is more likely to murder
> >> her husband at full moon?
> > Oh, I'm listening to the seabird crying!
> Probably a loon.
You made me laugh. You didn't get what I meant.
(stop crying!) :-)