Aurum Solis: Phoney?
{ Secret Chief }
responded:
> Take a look at the ENTIRE corpus of published Aurum Solis work. You will
> find that it is, in most ways, not like the Golden Dawn at all. The nature
> of the work and its structure is quite different. The main similarities are
> in a couple of personal rites, such as the Setting of the Wards, and even
> there it is often quite different. Prove to me that you actually know the
> material...
I don't deny that Denning and Phillips departed from the Golden Dawn
material in some substantial and interesting ways. So did Crowley and
P.F. Case.
In that sense, Aurum Solis is no more phoney than the A.'.A.'. or
BOTA.
But what I do object to is the phoney baloney historical narrative
concocted for AS, attempting to pass it off as a wholly separate
"tradition" with no roots in GD theory or practice.
If I can see any documentation whatsoever on the purported
AS-ancestory organization, Societas Rotae Fulgentis, or the alleged
founders, George Stanton or Charles Kingold, I will be happy to revise
my opinion.
Until then, I see the way AS presents itself as a particularly
egregious example of occult tradition-mongering.
Gnome d Plume
Chief }) wrote:
**** You right in this respect: The Aurum Solis took the basic G.D.
Q.B.L. structure, based on the G.D.'s unique version of the Sepher
Yetzirah's alphabetic elemental, planetary and zodiacal
correspondences, tweaked it just enough (a few shades of color in the
Minutum Mundum) and then declared that they had it from an independent
source. Its fine to use G.D. correspondences. The O.T.O., A.A. and our
O.T.A. all admit to this and do our "tweaking" in the open. In our
case Crata Repoa is 100 years older than the G.D. but we bow to the
G.D. for magical Q.B.L. structure. The Aurum Solis never came clean on
that--but that's a moot point now that they've apparently become
"Christian" and lost most if not all of their U.S. temples. Too bad.
They had some original ideas and made some decent contributions.
Maybe the U.S. A.S. can rename itself and rise again? Let us hope so.
****
Gnome
Al Billings
wrote:
>**** You right in this respect: The Aurum Solis took the basic G.D.
>Q.B.L. structure, based on the G.D.'s unique version of the Sepher
>Yetzirah's alphabetic elemental, planetary and zodiacal
>correspondences, tweaked it just enough (a few shades of color in the
>Minutum Mundum) and then declared that they had it from an independent
>source.
There is a bit more difference than just a few shades of color...
> Its fine to use G.D. correspondences. The O.T.O., A.A. and our
>O.T.A. all admit to this and do our "tweaking" in the open. In our
>case Crata Repoa is 100 years older than the G.D. but we bow to the
>G.D. for magical Q.B.L. structure. The Aurum Solis never came clean on
>that--but that's a moot point now that they've apparently become
>"Christian" and lost most if not all of their U.S. temples. Too bad.
>They had some original ideas and made some decent contributions.
>Maybe the U.S. A.S. can rename itself and rise again? Let us hope so.
>****
It already has. The U.S. groups didn't just dry up and blow away from
a few people in the UK lost it. I already mentioned my membership in
the US order. We still exist. A website for the new organization
should be up at ogdoadic.net at some point soon. None of the US (and
Canadian) practitioners have quit practicing. We received an
acknowledgement of our legitimacy from the old Aurum Solis (not
necessary in my opinion but it does smooth over things for some
people) and we've continued as the Ordo Astrum Sopiae.
LVX,
Al
Al Billings
Chief }) wrote:
>But what I do object to is the phoney baloney historical narrative
>concocted for AS, attempting to pass it off as a wholly separate
>"tradition" with no roots in GD theory or practice.
>
>If I can see any documentation whatsoever on the purported
>AS-ancestory organization, Societas Rotae Fulgentis, or the alleged
>founders, George Stanton or Charles Kingold, I will be happy to revise
>my opinion.
Why bother? It doesn't matter and it probably won't change your
opinion.
I doubt if anyone alive today could prove it to your satisfaction and
there are probably few, if any, people who could furnish any sort of
documentation. Given that the old Aurum Solis papers and the like are
in the hands of Osborne Philips and he and his new partner have gone
completely Christian, certainly none of us still following the
tradition in the U.S. are going to be able to "prove" anything based
on documentation.
At this point, it comes down to opinion. It is pretty clear from
published material that quite a few ex-Golden Dawn people joined the
order before the 50's and that it is likely that the tension between
the practices that they brought in (including masonic style ritual
work) and the practices current before that caused the rift in the
order outlined in various printings of the Magical Philosophy series.
When the order re-united a couple of decades later, a lot of
re-organization of material occured.
In other words, the Golden Dawn influences are known and tacitly
acknowledged. That's not the same as saying that the Ogdoadic
tradition is just the GD tradition with a few serial numbers filed
off. It isn't and the work is often quite different in character and
in basic structure. You just need to actually become famaliar with the
published materials in order to actually see it.
Having worked in both a Golden Dawn-derived order and within the
Aurum Solis, its very clear as a practitioner that they aren't one and
the same even though there are strong borrowings and both ultimately
derive a lot from the same sources of Western magic.
LVX,
Al
{ Secret Chief }
> On 26 Jan 2003 15:01:08 -0800, bloodo...@goddamnfruit.com ({ Secret
> Chief }) wrote:
>
> >But what I do object to is the phoney baloney historical narrative
> >concocted for AS, attempting to pass it off as a wholly separate
> >"tradition" with no roots in GD theory or practice.
> >
> >If I can see any documentation whatsoever on the purported
> >AS-ancestory organization, Societas Rotae Fulgentis, or the alleged
> >founders, George Stanton or Charles Kingold, I will be happy to revise
> >my opinion.
>
> Why bother? It doesn't matter and it probably won't change your
> opinion.
>
> I doubt if anyone alive today could prove it to your satisfaction and
> there are probably few, if any, people who could furnish any sort of
> documentation. Given that the old Aurum Solis papers and the like are
> in the hands of Osborne Philips and he and his new partner have gone
> completely Christian, certainly none of us still following the
> tradition in the U.S. are going to be able to "prove" anything based
> on documentation.
To start with, the 1901 UK census is online. We could look for George
Stantons and Charles Kingoldses who might plausibly fit the
AS-founders' profiles.
I did a quick search already. No results for Charles Kingold. Maybe
he died after 1897? (This would be easier if we had even approximate
birth and death deates for these guys).
Here's the results for George Stantons in London in 1901: (vy. young
and vy. old excluded)
Name**********Age***Birthplace*******Occupation
George Stanton 28 London Leather Finisher
George Stanton 29 Gravesend Kent Dock Policeman
George Stanton 38 London Brixton Fulham Hall Porter
George Stanton 39 Chelsea London Silver Maker Gold
George Stanton 39 London Clerkenwell Brewers Labourer
George Stanton 42 Marylebone General Labourer
George Stanton 49 Deal Kent Commercial Clerk
George Stanton 51 London Tea Warehouse Man
George Stanton 55 Lond Fulham Gen Lab
George Stanton 58 London Bethnal Green Chair Maker
None of these guys look that promising. The best we've got is a
commercial clerk, a position that didn't require the kind of education
you'd expect from a careful compiler of Hermetic thought. He's still
a possibility, I guess, but not strong ones.
(Incidentally, I found A.E. Waite in there. Listed as a "Business
Manager of London".)
Alternatives:
If either Kingold or Stanton went to a university, their dates of
graduation could be verified.
Societas Rotae Fulgentis was supposed to be an "antiquarian society"
whose members went on to found AS. Perhaps they placed a notice in a
newspaper or journal of the time? Maybe they put out a little
publication themselves? This could be verified.
Maybe they rented a hall? This could possibly perhaps be verified,
depending on the venue. If it was a Masonic or Odd Fellows' hall,
chances are they might still have records of it.
If we had a good death date for either Kingold or Stanton, we could
check for obits in the London papers.
These guys weren't (supposedly) living in ancient Egypt or something.
We're talking Victorian/Edwardian England, with a sturdy bureaucracy
and print culture. If they were real, it should be pretty easy to
come up with something.
Oh wait! Just looked at the Ogdoadic timeline again: Societas Rotae
Fulgentis is supposed to have been around since 1689. There's *gotta*
be some kind of reference in print to it over the almost two centuries
between its founding and that of AS.
{ Secret Chief }
> **** but that's a moot point now that they've apparently become
> "Christian" and lost most if not all of their U.S. temples.
It'd seem like, in OTO terms, they've gone through the stages of Reuss
(mostly mythical), Crowley (semi-operational), and Germer
(implosional) all in one generation of leadership.
> Maybe the U.S. A.S. can rename itself and rise again?
I think Al Billings is on that already. Could be they've found their
Grady McMurtry. ;)
> Let us hope so.
Yep.
Gnome d Plume
Chief }) wrote:
**** Agreed. But let's not kick them when they are going through this
convulsion and trying to reorganize. I'm more than willing to
accommodate a little "glamor" in a founder's myth. I wrote a book
defending Westcott's Sprengle creation against Ellic Howe's vicious
critique in this regard, so just a bit of "Ancient Masterism" and
"Grand Old Founderism" stuff is okay providing they no longer (as the
A.S. tended to do in its original form) take their "We're older than
the Golden Dawn" pronouncements too seriously. (Take a hint, Al....)
Part of this problem arises from the original arrogance of Denning and
Phillips. I won't soon forget they way they treated Geoffrey
James--but out of that came his excellent book *Enochian Evocation of
Dr. John Dee* for which all of us, including the A.S. should be
grateful. The main point here is Hermetic solidarity and mutual
support. As the world turns ugly in the 21st century with 70 million
fundamental "Christians" in the U.S. politicizing their bigoted
agenda, all the Hermetic and Thelemic orders very much need to
overcome their petty differences and form a united front. I say more
power to the American Aurum Solis. Keep up the Great Work and let the
Brits do their thing their way. ****
****P.S. -- We didn't steal the A.S. winged air-dagger design. We got
it out of George Pickingale's original draft of *The Cypher
Manuscript* ;-) ****
Good Magick!
Gnome d Plume
http://members.ail.com/CHSOTA/temple.html
Gnome d Plume
Al Billings
wrote:
>**** Agreed. But let's not kick them when they are going through this
>convulsion and trying to reorganize. I'm more than willing to
>accommodate a little "glamor" in a founder's myth. I wrote a book
>defending Westcott's Sprengle creation against Ellic Howe's vicious
>critique in this regard, so just a bit of "Ancient Masterism" and
>"Grand Old Founderism" stuff is okay providing they no longer (as the
>A.S. tended to do in its original form) take their "We're older than
>the Golden Dawn" pronouncements too seriously. (Take a hint, Al....)
Like you have even the vaguest idea of what my opinion is, Poke.
>Part of this problem arises from the original arrogance of Denning and
>Phillips. I won't soon forget they way they treated Geoffrey
>James--but out of that came his excellent book *Enochian Evocation of
>Dr. John Dee* for which all of us, including the A.S. should be
>grateful.
While that may be true, so what?
Where and when did they come out against it? What was the nature of
their criticism? How does it prove their "arrogance" in any case?
> The main point here is Hermetic solidarity and mutual
>support. As the world turns ugly in the 21st century with 70 million
>fundamental "Christians" in the U.S. politicizing their bigoted
>agenda, all the Hermetic and Thelemic orders very much need to
>overcome their petty differences and form a united front. I say more
>power to the American Aurum Solis. Keep up the Great Work and let the
>Brits do their thing their way. ****
Turn down the attitude a bit and you might get it. Otherwise, you
have no one but yourself to blame.
LVX,
Al
Gnome d Plume
wrote:
**** Al:
I'm trying to be a friend and supporter when your order is going
through a credibility crisis. I have friends and correspondents who
believe the Aurum Solis is worth saving. I share this belief---but the
last thing in the world you need right now IMO is an arrogant defense
of the original Denning & Phillips' P.T. Barnum style hype and the
unfounded mysterioso that launched the A.S. back in 1974. I suggest
that you take a long look at the A.S. published Goetia, Enochian
Terrestrial Victory (compared to *The Vision and the Voice*) and the
Pathworking material issued by Llewellyn in the A.S. series and then
develop just a little humility. I will refrain from further critique
in the interest of following my original intention---but I ask you to
likewise refrain from the doubtful claim that the A.S. is better,
older, wiser and more elite than other Hermetic orders. Just do your
work but don't push the old Llewellyn hype and we'll all get
along---and you might find you have some friends when you need
them.****
Al Billings
wrote:
>I'm trying to be a friend and supporter when your order is going
>through a credibility crisis.
You are? I don't see that at all.
> I have friends and correspondents who
>believe the Aurum Solis is worth saving. I share this belief---but the
>last thing in the world you need right now IMO is an arrogant defense
>of the original Denning & Phillips' P.T. Barnum style hype and the
>unfounded mysterioso that launched the A.S. back in 1974.
And who is engaging in any supposed defense of any sort? Can you
quote the part of any message by myself or others where this is the
case so we can all see it? (No, you can't because no one is doing what
you are suggesting.)
> I suggest
>that you take a long look at the A.S. published Goetia, Enochian
>Terrestrial Victory (compared to *The Vision and the Voice*) and the
>Pathworking material issued by Llewellyn in the A.S. series and then
>develop just a little humility.
Poke Runyon is telling me to develop humility! Hello Mr. Pot!
> I will refrain from further critique
>in the interest of following my original intention---but I ask you to
>likewise refrain from the doubtful claim that the A.S. is better,
>older, wiser and more elite than other Hermetic orders.
Please quote where I ever made that claim.
I didn't and you're consistantly trying to set that up as a straw man
and then jumping on it.
Quit projecting, Poke, and look at the messages that were actually
posted. Your arrogance is showing again.
LVX,
Al
{ Secret Chief }
> **** Agreed. But let's not kick them when they are going through this
> convulsion and trying to reorganize. I'm more than willing to
> accommodate a little "glamor" in a founder's myth. I wrote a book
> defending Westcott's Sprengle creation against Ellic Howe's vicious
> critique in this regard, so just a bit of "Ancient Masterism" and
> "Grand Old Founderism" stuff is okay
Occult-order foundation myths usually serve the purpose of linking the
mythmaker up with the famous ancestors and telling his contemporaries
to slag off.
The AS founding myth, however, seems to designed to tell the famous
ancestors (the GD, fringe- and para- Masonry generally) to slag off as
well.
As a student of occult history, I find that pretty tacky.
> providing they no longer (as the
> A.S. tended to do in its original form) take their "We're older than
> the Golden Dawn" pronouncements too seriously. (Take a hint, Al....)
To be fair to Al, Gnome, when I asked these same annoying questions on
another list, his response seemed to reflect agnosticism; and if you
read his posts here carefully, there's nothing in them inconsistent
with agnosticism on this question.
I believe what got him going was the implication that AS is unoriginal
shite. Which it's not; it's decent material that's not as original as
it purports to be.
> ****P.S. -- We didn't steal the A.S. winged air-dagger design. We got
> it out of George Pickingale's original draft of *The Cypher
> Manuscript* ;-) ****
I didn't steal the "Secret Chief" name from the GD; I am one!
Yours sincerely,
Fraulein Sprengel
Gnome d Plume
wrote:
>On Wed, 29 Jan 2003 06:17:58 GMT, Gnome...@aol.com (Gnome d Plume)
**** Al:
You are probably right and I am probably reacting, in this instance,
not to your actual statements but to an A.S. attitude and a style that
has offended not only Geoffrey James but myself and a number of
serious occult practitioners since 1974. There are mountains of
evidence (see W.W. Westcott, S.L. Mathers, Aleister Crowley, Ellic
Howe, Robert A. Gilbert, Francis Regardie, William Butler Yeats, R.G.
Torrens, Ithell Colquhoun, Kathleen Raine, Mary Greer, Darcy Kuntz,
and my own work just to name a few) concerning the creation and
implementation of the Golden Dawn; likewise with the O.T.O. Magicians
worth their salt write and publish, or get written about and published
by others, especially if they found and direct real, working occult
orders.
Before 1974 the "ancient" Aurum Solis was briefly mentioned in
one obscure quote in one Francis King book.
IMO Denning & Phillips and Carl Wescheke created the modern
Aurum Solis. If there was a Victorian or Edwardian history behind it,
it was very skeletal; less substantial than Mackenzie's *Cypher
Manuscript*. This opinion is shared by a number of knowledgeable
people as you have discovered.
Be that as it may, since 1974 a number of folks have been
attracted to the system and have made it viable as a working order.
That is an accomplishment you and the rest should be proud of. I am
especially appreciative of the work and dedication such an effort
requires.
Unfortunately Denning & Phillips are said to have withheld
further unpublished materials from their order members---especially in
the U.S. --- for a number of years; a further indication that the
Aurum Solis, at least from the perspective of its modern founders, was
a commercial enterprise rather than a sincere occult fraternity,
regardless of how potentially valuable some of the material is and may
yet become. To further this impression, when asked for these promised
advanced grade papers the Americans were told (as I understand it) to
buy their "advanced material" after publication, and then Phillips
overturned everything and went Christian!
It is hard to argue against these points if they are true. I am
very fond of the Golden Dawn and have deep respect for the system, but
I would be the last person to stand on the position that Fraulein
Sprengel really was a German Rosicrucian adept writing to Westcott
from the continent.
If the Aurum Solis is to continue with credability after the
recent actions and in-actions of its founders, then an honesty,
similar to that of the present Golden Dawn, in regard to its history
might be necessary. You might seek to find an Alexandrina Mackenzie
behind your Fraulein Sprengel, because I would agree with you that
there probably is material in the A.S. corpus that pre-dates the
"talents" of Denning & Phillips. You may already know where it comes
from----or, like Franz Bardon not realizing that P.B. Randolph had
preceeded him in much of his teaching, you may find the original
sources elusive. In any case keep up the Great Work and realize that
we love you more now that you are not affiliated with "D&P."
And I do apologize to you if I mistook your diffidence as direct
support for another later and equally dubious founder's myth.****
In L.V.X..
Gnome d Plume
http://members.aol.com/CHSOTA/productions.html
Al Billings
wrote:
> Unfortunately Denning & Phillips are said to have withheld
>further unpublished materials from their order members---especially in
>the U.S. --- for a number of years; a further indication that the
>Aurum Solis, at least from the perspective of its modern founders, was
>a commercial enterprise rather than a sincere occult fraternity,
>regardless of how potentially valuable some of the material is and may
>yet become. To further this impression, when asked for these promised
>advanced grade papers the Americans were told (as I understand it) to
>buy their "advanced material" after publication, and then Phillips
>overturned everything and went Christian!
Why are you attempting to tell this to me when, if you read the
archive of this newsgroup, I'm the one that originally posted about
the situation last August?
Your perspective is quite slanted and not quite accurate. Papers had
not been forthcoming when promised and questions around this to
Philips (and you can't tar Melita Denning with this) led to the
revoking of the U.S. charters along with some other concerns.
We were never told to "buy their 'adcanced material' after
publication," Poke.
> If the Aurum Solis is to continue with credability after the
>recent actions and in-actions of its founders, then an honesty,
>similar to that of the present Golden Dawn, in regard to its history
>might be necessary.
Unfortuantely, as I've said, you're barking at the wrong mailman. No
one in the U.S. is in a position to prove (or not prove) anything as
we are all modern initiates. Any documents are in the hands of
Philips. You should talk to him. I'm not in a position to do anything
about that and am, realistically, not particularily focused on that
particular snipe hunt.
> And I do apologize to you if I mistook your diffidence as direct
>support for another later and equally dubious founder's myth.****
A myth or non-myth that has no bearing on myself or anyone else in
the Ordo Astrum Sopiae. Take it up with Philips. He was one of the two
authors of the published books and he's the only one alive that can
probably answer your questions. Complaining to those of us in the
American order isn't going to win you any love as we aren't in a
position to address your complaint and have bigger fish to fry.
Al
Pearlz
I do not understand why people wholely uninvolved with the Aurum Solis
and its recent U.S. lineage, feel compelled to blat on and on about it.
Frankly, it's none of your business and your ill-informed blathering
is not appreciated.
pearlz
{ Secret Chief }
> I do not understand why people wholely uninvolved with the Aurum Solis
> and its recent U.S. lineage, feel compelled to blat on and on about it.
I'm a helper. I help.
I think the foundation story is phoney, that its motives questionable,
and that Astrum Sophiae would be better off without it.
First, false pretensions to antiquity or connection with unknown
superiors tend to destabilize organizations. For example, the
original Golden Dawn. Second, they tend to lead to arrogance and an
over-estimation of the worth of the material in question.
For those who might think the foundation myth is true, I've offered a
number of ways that it can be verified.
To their credit, no one stateside seems particularly interested in
bandying it about.
> Frankly, it's none of your business and your ill-informed blathering
> is not appreciated.
Oooh! So touchy!
That's about the same reaction certain Wiccans get when they find out
that Gerald Gardner made up the whole thing, and was an OTO member to
boot.
Gnome d Plume
wrote:
>On Wed, 29 Jan 2003 18:19:04 GMT, Gnome...@aol.com (Gnome d Plume)
**** Al:
I've been more critical than I intended to be and more intrusive than
I should have been. I wish you all the good fortune and success in
keeping your order going in the U.S. It seems we actually agree on
most of the points mentioned. What we don't agree on is
inconsequential. ****
Gnome d Plume
Chief }) wrote:
**** It took quite a while to disabuse Wiccan Grand Dame Doreen
Valiente of her fantasy that pig farmer George Pickengale wrote the
G.D. Cypher Manuscript---but I think in this case Lord Phillips is
"hoist on his own petard" so-to-speak and we should cheer on the
American revolutionaries as they pick up the pieces and start again.
Let's give them the benefit of the doubt--at least on this side of the
pond. ****
Gnome d Plume
Aron Wolf
> Pearlz <pea...@efn.org> wrote in message news:<Pine.GSU.4.21.03013...@garcia.efn.org>...
> > I do not understand why people wholely uninvolved with the Aurum Solis
> > and its recent U.S. lineage, feel compelled to blat on and on about it.
>
> I'm a helper. I help.
>
Funny, seems to me like all you're doing is criticizing. Also
seems to me like we never asked for you "help".
> I think the foundation story is phoney, that its motives questionable,
> and that Astrum Sophiae would be better off without it.
>
I think the only "pretention" that we have made is that we are
among the successors to the Aurum Solis. If that means we except, fait
accompli, the foundation myth of the order by claiming heritige from
it, then so be it. Personally, I neither care what you think, nor do
I, myself, care about the truth of the founding myth. All I care about
is whether Aurum Solis magick works. And, having worked with the
system for several years now, I can tell you that it most certinally
does. If you doubt that, go perform the Rousing of the Citadels every
day for a year and tell me what you think. Then and only then will I
except your criticism.
> First, false pretensions to antiquity or connection with unknown
> superiors tend to destabilize organizations. For example, the
> original Golden Dawn. Second, they tend to lead to arrogance and an
> over-estimation of the worth of the material in question.
>
What is so arrogant about silence? Silence has been our only
commentary on the "false pretensions to antiquity" which the public
face of our order has, in the past, made.
> For those who might think the foundation myth is true, I've offered a
> number of ways that it can be verified.
>
You have. We simply have no interest in defending the myth as
anything but.
> To their credit, no one stateside seems particularly interested in
> bandying it about.
>
The first friendly words out of your mouth in this whole
discussion. Thank you.
> > Frankly, it's none of your business and your ill-informed blathering
> > is not appreciated.
>
> Oooh! So touchy!
>
> That's about the same reaction certain Wiccans get when they find out
> that Gerald Gardner made up the whole thing, and was an OTO member to
> boot.
No, more the reaction of "enough already, let's stop bandying
about and actually do some magick!"
Al Billings
Chief }) wrote:
>Pearlz <pea...@efn.org> wrote in message news:<Pine.GSU.4.21.03013...@garcia.efn.org>...
>> I do not understand why people wholely uninvolved with the Aurum Solis
>> and its recent U.S. lineage, feel compelled to blat on and on about it.
>
>I'm a helper. I help.
How are you actually helping? That's a croc.
>I think the foundation story is phoney, that its motives questionable,
>and that Astrum Sophiae would be better off without it.
It's a received part of the tradition and not one that we really have
any way to validate or invalidate. Since it doesn't affect our work,
none of us really seem to care...
>First, false pretensions to antiquity or connection with unknown
>superiors tend to destabilize organizations. For example, the
>original Golden Dawn. Second, they tend to lead to arrogance and an
>over-estimation of the worth of the material in question.
The proof is in the pudding. A history, real or not, has no effect on
the legitimacy or effectiveness of our work. What difference does it
make and, just as importantly, what difference does it make to *you*?
You aren't even a part of the tradition, just a bystander.
>For those who might think the foundation myth is true, I've offered a
>number of ways that it can be verified.
No, you've given some vague ideas about looking at census records.
You've conveniently ignored the fact that records of all sorts were
destroyed in the Blitz so even if we couldn't find anything, it
wouldn't prove anything.
I'm a Billings. I have a book, compiled before World War II, of my
family's history up to a divergence with my great-great-grandfather.
This is full of researched data found by a Billings who went to
England and dug through records. The book, as research, is
irreplaceable? Do you know why? The answer is because most of the
records that my relative went through to make this book burned up in
the Blitz. We can't validate most of the data in it or reproduce it.
Does this make the book invalid? No. Does it mean that there may be
errors that we can't ever know about and prove or disprove? Sure.
That's the way it is though.
A couple of census records from 100 years ago mean squat.
Furthermore, none of us are so well-heeled (or so obsessive) that
we're going to go to England to try to root it out. We're busy
actually doing the Work...
It's not important. The Work is.
>To their credit, no one stateside seems particularly interested in
>bandying it about.
And no one seems interested in whipping a dead horse but you.
>That's about the same reaction certain Wiccans get when they find out
>that Gerald Gardner made up the whole thing, and was an OTO member to
>boot.
Something that isn't entirely true either (please go read Hutton or
the like for the current state of things...).
We don't know you. You're some alt.magick.wanker type who is going on
and on with your buddy poke about the mean ol' Aurum Solis and it's
made up history. You don't have any facts either way. You have
opinions and seemingly long-standing ones. That's nice for you but we
hardly give a shit.
Al
{ Secret Chief }
> No, you've given some vague ideas about looking at census records.
> You've conveniently ignored the fact that records of all sorts were
> destroyed in the Blitz so even if we couldn't find anything, it
> wouldn't prove anything.
>
> I'm a Billings. I have a book, compiled before World War II, of my
> family's history up to a divergence with my great-great-grandfather.
> This is full of researched data found by a Billings who went to
> England and dug through records. The book, as research, is
> irreplaceable? Do you know why? The answer is because most of the
> records that my relative went through to make this book burned up in
> the Blitz. We can't validate most of the data in it or reproduce it.
> Does this make the book invalid? No. Does it mean that there may be
> errors that we can't ever know about and prove or disprove? Sure.
> That's the way it is though.
This is an imperfect analogy. There are doubtless, in your book, a
mass of dates, places, details, maybe even a whole person or two, that
could not be otherwise verified.
But the situation with "Kingold" and "Stanton" and "Societas Whatever
it Was Supposed to Be Called" would be more like if there was no
documentary evidence whatsoever for your family existing before 1971.
This thread is increasingly being driven by your intense irritation at
my manner and my equally intense amusement thereat. So let's cut to
the chase.
My position: There is not a single shred of evidence to support the
assertion that AS existed before c. 1971.
Your position: There is not a single shred of evidence to support the
assertion that AS existed before c. 1971, but I'm an asshole.
I'd say that's close enough to call it a draw.
Pearlz
On Thu, 30 Jan 2003, Gnome d Plume wrote:
> On 30 Jan 2003 11:09:52 -0800, bloodo...@goddamnfruit.com ({ Secret
> Chief }) wrote:
> >> Frankly, it's none of your business and your ill-informed blathering
> >> is not appreciated.
> >
> >Oooh! So touchy!
> >
> >That's about the same reaction certain Wiccans get when they find out
> >that Gerald Gardner made up the whole thing, and was an OTO member to
> >boot.
I knew about the AS history (or lack thereof) for years before I got
involved with it. No big deal to me. I work in the present.
What I find offensive is you blathering on an on like you're looking
up a ladies skirts and describing to all what you see. I already know
what's up there and I likely knew it long before you did.
You're not trying to help at all despite your claims. You're gloating and
trying to rub salt on irritations and get a rise out of people associated
with the AS.
BTW, I also don't care that the AS has gone belly-up Christian or that
Ruth has been proclaimed the Yoko Ono of the AS. I figure it's better
to have a colorful and diverse history than to be a bore.
pearlz
{ Secret Chief }
> I knew about the AS history (or lack thereof) for years before I got
> involved with it. No big deal to me. I work in the present.
>
> What I find offensive is you blathering on an on like you're looking
> up a ladies skirts and describing to all what you see. I already know
> what's up there and I likely knew it long before you did.
I'm sure you did. So it's not so much that what I'm saying is
incorrect, as it's obnoxious and in bad taste?
That's fine.
The thing is, what is obvious to you and me might not be obvious to
everyone out there. If making it so involves bringing down some
opprobrium on my own head, I can deal with that. Compassion is the
vice of usenet posters.
> You're not trying to help at all despite your claims. You're gloating and
> trying to rub salt on irritations and get a rise out of people associated
> with the AS.
That's certainly part of the appeal. But I really do think that every
organization is helped by an honest evaluation and (public)
acknowledgement of its past. And sometimes rude questions by people
whose business it isn't are a necessary part of that process.
Some people seem to think matters like this are an obstacle to "the
Work". We'll agree to disagree here.
> BTW, I also don't care that the AS has gone belly-up Christian or that
> Ruth has been proclaimed the Yoko Ono of the AS. I figure it's better
> to have a colorful and diverse history than to be a bore.
Me too!
Al Billings
Chief }) wrote:
>My position: There is not a single shred of evidence to support the
>assertion that AS existed before c. 1971.
>
>Your position: There is not a single shred of evidence to support the
>assertion that AS existed before c. 1971, but I'm an asshole.
Well, far be it from me to say you aren't an asshole but I'm actually
of the opinion that there is no evidence for or against. I'm also
pretty uncaring about it since it has no bearing on my work or the
order. Take it up with Philips.
Al
Pearlz
> Pearlz wrote:
> > I knew about the AS history (or lack thereof) for years before I got
> > involved with it. No big deal to me. I work in the present.
> >
> > What I find offensive is you blathering on an on like you're looking
> > up a ladies skirts and describing to all what you see. I already know
> > what's up there and I likely knew it long before you did.
>
> I'm sure you did. So it's not so much that what I'm saying is
> incorrect, as it's obnoxious and in bad taste?
No. It's more that you say you are trying to help the Aurum Solis
when your intentions really are quite different.
> That's fine.
>
> The thing is, what is obvious to you and me might not be obvious to
> everyone out there. If making it so involves bringing down some
> opprobrium on my own head, I can deal with that. Compassion is the
> vice of usenet posters.
>
> > You're not trying to help at all despite your claims. You're gloating and
> > trying to rub salt on irritations and get a rise out of people associated
> > with the AS.
> That's certainly part of the appeal.
At least you admit it. Now, try to grok this.... I would not find it
obnoxious if you were to post an account of the AS history, pointing out
false claims, without making a unnecessarily nasty production out of it.
What I do find obnoxious is that you say you are trying
to help the AS when in fact you are not (and admit as much). Thus you
are making false claims yourself.
It's usually the case that the person who tries to remove the speck from
someone else's eye has a mote (of the same sort) in their own. You
illustrate this point very well.
I suggest you fix your own false advertising then come back and tell us
more about the AS.
pearlz
Gnome d Plume
**** Whoa thar, pardner! I ain't writ none of the above! I done
apologized to Al, bought him a shot of red-eye and rode outa town. Git
yor consarned facts straight. ****
High Pockets Gnome
Pearlz
> >
> **** Whoa thar, pardner! I ain't writ none of the above! I done
> apologized to Al, bought him a shot of red-eye and rode outa town. Git
> yor consarned facts straight. ****
>
> High Pockets Gnome
>
Many apologies, Gnome. I think I mixed up the attributions. I was
really addressing High Spirit (I think).
pearlz
Desmontes
> I don't deny that Denning and Phillips departed from the Golden Dawn
> material in some substantial and interesting ways. So did Crowley and
> P.F. Case. [...] But what I do object to is the phoney baloney historical
> narrative concocted for AS, attempting to pass it off as a wholly
> separate "tradition" with no roots in GD theory or practice.
Several months ago I raised this subject in correspondence with the Grand
Master of the Order, Leon Barcynski. I specifically asked him if Aurum Solis
techniques were influenced by the Golden Dawn. This was his reply:
-----
Overall, the AS is a distinctive, in many ways unique, system, obviously
deriving its essential material from the Ogdoadic Tradition. The initiations
demonstrate the point: for they owe nothing to the GD, and are different in
material content, psychic structure and spiritual intention. The same may be
said of Order group rites and ritual formulae of the House of Sacrifice.
So much is, on evidence, beyond question.
The question of derivation, then, applies to initial formulations: Outer
Order material such as the Calyx, the Wards, and perhaps the Rousing.
It is not surprising that the form of the Cross, the signing of the Cross,
should be employed in GD practice: the sign is old, and given mankind's
interest in supplementing exterior ritual action with interior
visualization -- as witness Taoist, Hindu and Hesychast practice -- the
development, from simple sign to accompanying, sophisticated interior
formulation, is logical. The PSI gesture, too, is ancient and natural, and
the Calyx follows a natural route of formulation. All within the parameters
of philosophical principles derived from a western view of psyche and the
relationship of psyche to the worlds.
The Wards, too, are logical, and their spiritual content is likewise
ancient. The unpublished AS Ritual of the Four Pillars, for instance,
invokes AMSET, dwelling within ISIS, in the south; HAPI, dwelling within
NEPHTHYS, in the north; TUAMUTEF, dwelling within NEITH, in the east; and
QEBSENNUF, dwelling within SELQET, in the west. These are formulations and
correspondences established by long tradition. The circle of protection and
the Four Guardian Powers, by whatever name, are found on a global basis.
Add to this the formulations of medieval magick, as exemplified in the
grimoires, and the insights of the Jewish mystical tradition, as witnessed
in the Zohar, and it is not difficult to arrive at, and to understand, the
basis of GD and AS formulations, their origins and purposes.
In the documentation of Societas Rotae Fulgentis, as early as 1875, there
are essays on models for the Greek form of the Wards. I do not suppose that
the GD all at once produced its formulations: a period of research and
preparation was undoubtedly involved. But a point of speculation is here
evoked and introduced. In fine, was the GD influenced by the work of
Societas Rotae Fulgentis?
Such speculation is, however, idle. Deep knowledge of the psyche and of its
potential in magical operation was evidently common to both GD and AS, both
societies arriving at a common point of aspiration from different routes.
And if there are similarities, then none should be surprised that the
truth -- expressed in formulations of both societies -- should have been
expressed by both. Truth of tradition, of practice based upon western
conditions, and of the inner life of psyche and its correspondence to the
Worlds.
Of the Rousing, it may be observed that the AS model of the Central Column
energisation employs six centres, and in its resolution phase relates more
closely to Hindu practice: the ascending spirals of light, white and red,
deriving from Hindu tradition. The swathings of light, the movement of the
light, is, again, an ancient thing: Taoist and Hindu models are known.
The basic practices were formulated, then, upon tradition, and with insight,
both by GD and by AS individually. In this, each owes debt to the greater
current of philosophy, tradition, practice, and the psychic life.
Nobody lives in isolation, of course: and if there was, in the period at
which both societies came into being, an exchange and sharing, then it must
here be recognised that such has never been deep, or initiatory, or
extensive.
------
I hope you find this information useful and relevent.
In Light,
Desmontes
"Many are the Thyrsus Bearers but few are the Mystics." - Plato
Gnome d Plume
wrote:
(Snip)
>
>Of the Rousing, it may be observed that the AS model of the Central Column
>energisation employs six centres, and in its resolution phase relates more
>closely to Hindu practice: the ascending spirals of light, white and red,
>deriving from Hindu tradition. The swathings of light, the movement of the
>light, is, again, an ancient thing: Taoist and Hindu models are known.
>
>The basic practices were formulated, then, upon tradition, and with insight,
>both by GD and by AS individually. In this, each owes debt to the greater
>current of philosophy, tradition, practice, and the psychic life.
>
>Nobody lives in isolation, of course: and if there was, in the period at
>which both societies came into being, an exchange and sharing, then it must
>here be recognised that such has never been deep, or initiatory, or
>extensive.
>
>------
>
>I hope you find this information useful and relevent.
>
>In Light,
>Desmontes
>
>"Many are the Thyrsus Bearers but few are the Mystics." - Plato
**** The above is interesting---but perhaps a little misleading. In
reviewing the "Rousing of the Planes" in your Book IV *The Triumph of
Light* (1978) it seems to be a modified version of Regardie's Middle
Pillar exercise. In the same year (April 10th, 1978) to be exact, we
published the first (as far as we know) Western straight-line
qabalistic psychic center (chakra) system lining up all 10 centers on
the vertical central axis of the spine based on the diagram of the
Flaming Sword (see *The Seventh Ray* issue No. 19, "The Hermetic
Caduceus" ). This system was first conceived in 1975. Our system
blends Eastern technique and structure with Western philosophical
conceptions. But now you are saying that the A.S. system's
" resolution phase relates more closely to Hindu practice: the
ascending spirals of light, white and red, deriving from Hindu
tradition. The swathings of light, the movement of the light, is,
again, an ancient thing: Taoist and Hindu models are known."
This gives the impression that you have achieved a marriage of
Eastern and Western chakra systems, when in fact what you have is a
"me-too Middle Pillar" , which, as I recall, was a Regardie
development in the 1920s.
Perhaps I'm being a bit harsh in pointing these details out,
but the blending and even fusion of Eastern methods with Western
philosophical aspects has been a particular focus of our work and I
have a keen interest in this area. ****
Al Billings
wrote:
>**** The above is interesting---but perhaps a little misleading. In
>reviewing the "Rousing of the Planes" in your Book IV *The Triumph of
>Light* (1978) it seems to be a modified version of Regardie's Middle
>Pillar exercise.
"Your book??" Desmontes didn't write the book and Philips doesn't
read this newsgroup, Poke... you aren't going to get far here
addressing posts to him.
Al
Gnome d Plume
wrote:
>On Tue, 04 Feb 2003 18:56:48 GMT, Gnome...@aol.com (Gnome d Plume)
**** Al:
Oh let us not quibble! He's obviously an A.S. advocate, and I could
care less what news groups Phillips reads. I posted my comment mainly
for newbies who might have gotten the impression that the A.S. had a
full straight-line tantric type chakra system. ****
Desmontes
> In the same year (April 10th, 1978) to be exact, we
> published the first (as far as we know) Western straight-line
> qabalistic psychic center (chakra) system lining up all 10 centers on
> the vertical central axis of the spine based on the diagram of the
> Flaming Sword (see *The Seventh Ray* issue No. 19, "The Hermetic
> Caduceus" ). This system was first conceived in 1975. Our system
> blends Eastern technique and structure with Western philosophical
> conceptions.
I find this system very attractive, though I have yet to experiment with it.
For those that are not familiar with O.T.A.'s Hermetic Caduceus, the above
monograph is adapted in "The Book of Solomon's Magick" as Chapter 9. If I am
correct in my examination of this material, the attributions can be
summarized by essentially "stretching out" the Lighting Flash into a
straight line - associating the first three sephiroth with the Sahasrara
Chakra and the last two with the Muladhara Charkra, Tiphereth being centered
at the Anahata Chakra. The system itself is an elegant reconciliation,
though the shift in attributions would probably take some time getting used
to by those of us who work with either of the Qabalistic systems (Middle
Pillar Exercise or Clavis Rei Primae).
> But now you are saying that the A.S. system's
>
> " resolution phase relates more closely to Hindu practice: the
> ascending spirals of light, white and red, deriving from Hindu
> tradition. The swathings of light, the movement of the light, is,
> again, an ancient thing: Taoist and Hindu models are known."
>
> This gives the impression that you have achieved a marriage of
> Eastern and Western chakra systems, when in fact what you have is a
> "me-too Middle Pillar" , which, as I recall, was a Regardie
> development in the 1920s.
> Perhaps I'm being a bit harsh in pointing these details out,
> but the blending and even fusion of Eastern methods with Western
> philosophical aspects has been a particular focus of our work and I
> have a keen interest in this area. ****
In the quote above, Leon was speaking specifically of the "resolution phase"
(known otherwise as "the Caduceus") which is roughly the equivalent of the
"Circulation of the Light" in Regardie's Middle Pillar Exercise. Its
relation to Hindu practice was elaborated upon by Leon in a different
correspondence:
"In the Caduceus, the spirals of light, the white and the red, are of course
Ida and Pingala, coursing about Sushumna, the central column, the main
arteries of the Subtle Body. The philosophy and practice of Laya Yoga is
relevant here, and in subsidiary formulae: particularly in that phase where
the adept contemplates the light of the higher self within the Heart Centre
and unites therewith."
As for the "Centers of Activity" or "Gates"; these are firmly rooted in the
Western (Qabalistic) Tradition with a few deviations. A thorough examination
of these and their relation to the Gate Sephiroth is given in Chapter 5 of
"The Triumph of Light." Within this chapter and the quotations that I have
supplied, no pretense is given to suggest a marriage of the two systems,
only a subtle influence.
Al Billings
wrote:
>On Tue, 04 Feb 2003 23:40:52 -0800, Al Billings <mem...@memoria.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 04 Feb 2003 18:56:48 GMT, Gnome...@aol.com (Gnome d Plume)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>**** The above is interesting---but perhaps a little misleading. In
>>>reviewing the "Rousing of the Planes" in your Book IV *The Triumph of
>>>Light* (1978) it seems to be a modified version of Regardie's Middle
>>>Pillar exercise.
>>
>> "Your book??" Desmontes didn't write the book and Philips doesn't
>>read this newsgroup, Poke... you aren't going to get far here
>>addressing posts to him.
>>
>> Al
>
>**** Al:
>
>Oh let us not quibble! He's obviously an A.S. advocate, and I could
>care less what news groups Phillips reads. I posted my comment mainly
>for newbies who might have gotten the impression that the A.S. had a
>full straight-line tantric type chakra system. ****
Ah, so your reply was merely a rhetorical device, not an actual
reply.
You amaze me more every day. Pretty sadly too.
Al
Gnome d Plume
wrote:
**** I agree--and thanks for the kind words on our system. My only
concern was that newbies reading the reference to the Eastern aspects
might assume that the A.S. "Middle Pillar" was a full Q.B.L. chakra
system. Frankly, I wish more Western Orders would adopt our "Lightning
Flash" Q.B.L. chakras. This really internalizes the Tree properly for
the practice of Laya and Tantric type yoga exercises. It takes Western
Magick beyond lodge room/ temple histrionics into a truly subjective
and deeply effective dimension. ****