fleshy phallic light universe
sa87
> 50031015 viii om my comments [in square brackets]
>
> [--- Part 1 -- Intro and Tarot History Fragment]
>
> "Sir Brax" <no...@forme.thanks>:
> # ...my way of using The Tarot Deck... ...split ....
>
> compiled here, my response to the whole follows. I note that
> English is not your first language and I'm trying to translate
> your text as I respond to it in as kindly a way as I'm able.
> Marseille seems your gig, so I'll imagine you're French. :>
>
> # ...The Marseille... and Toth [were] the two most prized....
> # [of usenetizens, apparently]
>
> Smith-Waite is popular (prized?). Harris-Crowley Thoth is very
> well-regarded. the Marseille apparently has a strong following.
>
> # ...The Tarot ...wasn't designed for ['knowing the hidden]
> # at first.
>
> it's true! first it was a card game, like Four Seasons (Chess),
> which became "Enochian Chess", or Four-Handed Chess became
> what I shall call "Yichess" (4-Player Chess-Yijing-Mercury
> Game using dice and easily used in conjunction with any Yi
> for divination *and* magic), and then it became "The Book of
> Thoth" by dint of deception and fabrication!
>
> # ...The clues to decipher the Tarot are : Numbers and geometry.
>
> I like that thesis. it incorporates Pythagorean virtues in a
> nutshell and allows for a variety of applications. lovely. I
> would add *dice*, though most probably prefer less precision
> in defining to what a Tarot must include.
>
> # If you think that you can make a Tarot of your own, because
> # this don't ask so much.you may, but this will NOT be a Tarot.
> # just an Oracle. Oracles are card deck MADE for scrying and
> # playing. more easy to focus on the Card with them, less
> # symbolic. Their purpose is to assist the "medium" who want
> # to sense whatever situation he want to clarify.
>
> while I disagree that an occult Tarot constructed of one's own
> is not in fact a Tarot deck (as long as it conforms, who are we
> to judge?), I can see the value in the distinction you are making
> between cartomancy and tarotomancy here. one might compare a bowl
> or mirror carved or painted with a variety of spirit-sigils and
> one painted black for the purpose of projection. it is something
> about which I've differed in discussion about proto-(occult) Tarot
> gaming decks and their sparseness of symbolism (esp in Small Cards).
>
> # The Tarot is a Book. We could call it, The book of Thehouti
> # (Thoth) and Crowley understood it too. Is-it Egyptian? No
> # proof had ever be given that A Tarot was ever made or used
> # in Old Kemit (Egypt),and even if a Tarot like the Etteila is
> # called Egyptian, This deck is only old from some centuries....
>
> indeed. Paul Christian seems to have been inspired by de Gebelin
> and de Mellet's notions about Egyptian Tarot, and Papus ran with
> it very fast. Christian's Egyptian rituals keyed to Major Arcana
> titles seems to have proven very convincing to generations. you
> make it clear later how cards weren't found in Egypt and that
> it was only 1065 or so that anything that *might* be related to
> cards is extant, then how the Tarot game itself probably didn't
> come about until the 14th century, so I barely responded to it
> in Part 3 below.
>
> # ...the second AC, in the city of Venice, called Al-Bunduqiyyah
> # by the Egyptians. A Alexandrian Scholar, Basilides, come to
> # the city, with a large amount of Ideas and texts, and a dream..
> # founding a perfect balance between ALL philosophy and religions,
> # He thought that the "Gnosis" could be the perfect match between
> # Paganism and The new born religions, as Catholicism is becoming.
>
> what of the Jews, some of which *were* pagan??
>
> # ...in the secret court of Venice, Occultist, Hermetist, Gnostics, Mages
> # and likes will stay there..until the need to create something "easy" to
> # carry is coming to thought. Something simple, who could be a book, but
> # who doesn't have the form of a book.something coded, something who
> # would be a synthesis of all what they had found out. The Tarot deck
> # is born there, somewhere round the fourteenth century.
>
> entertaining tale. is there any support for it in reliable texts?
> I mean, I am aware that Basilides existed, and that he may well
> have created Gnostic baubles, but is there some reason to think
> that he should be connected with divination at all, let alone some
> Book of Tahuti other than that fashioned for this lovely story?
>
> [--- part 2 -- Symbolism and Its Relation To Tarot as Science ]
>
> # ...To say that Symbolism is a Science to explore and explain
> # symbols, is surely true..but don't take some other aspects of it.
>
> interesting. my impression was that symbolism isn't an individual
> science per se, but moreso a body of study that is multicultural
> and cataloging. it seems to form part of anthropology or sociology,
> or become the province of study of eclectic mystics and occultists
> as global cultural interfusion complexifies. my current favourite
> in this line of character is that by J.C. Cooper. I'm sure there
> are better, but this one has breakdown by culture and time period.
>
> some occultists, mystics and philosophers attempt to describe
> symbolism itself as an occult science, forming part of an
> overarching theology and cosmology. this seems to be what
> you are doing here also. typically this is fabricated and
> fallacious, promoting a particular sociopolitical platform
> and cosmological perspective (e.g. Cirlot's "Dictionary of
> Symbols", published by the Philosophical Library, which I do
> NOT recommend except as an example of this extreme, and in
> particular cf. the introduction!).
>
> # To understand the Symbolism of the Tarot, we must give at this
> # science a place within a ensemble of Five Occult Sciences. Magic
> # ... or High Magic like It is often called by your side; Astrology,
> # Alchemy, Symbolism and Mythology.... Those five fields where, and
> # still are, those who prevail to the making of the Tarot Deck, and
> # are the sciences where the Tarot can still be at use too... Five
> # sciences, Who could be divided as Three, one, one. High magic,
> # Astrology and Alchemy are the active sciences..inter-related.
> # Symbolism is the way to code and share the information about and
> # from those three sciences.. Mythology is the way to pass them
> # through the ages.
>
> astrology, magic, and alchemy + symbolism and mythology. again, a
> very intriguing hypothesis. this doesn't integrate divination per
> se, though it has representation in astrology, and you're locating
> Tarot somehow within this. I tend to group "occult" subjects into
> Alchemy / Divination / & Magic, and this seems to cover them all
> with few real conflicts or overlaps (astrology falling into the
> divinatory category, though I understand the folder-busting here).
folder-busting?
>
> # Mostly all people here Knows that Lore's and Legends are more
> # than often a way to pass information, or in another saying "
> # some secret knowledge", through the eons of time. a legend can
> # survive...history will fade often in memories. The key to
> # decode a legend IS Symbolism.
>
> the fabulous "Hamlet's Mill" of course agrees completely with
> your general premise here, being a contention that mythology is
> specifically an astronomical databank pointing toward Precession
> of the Equinoxes and the Change in the Cosmic (really human
> conceptual) Center. Jungians will no doubt find this meaningful
> insofar as psychological imagery and form is supposed to reside
> in the deep mind as part of a person and be synched with the
> cards on account of some mysterious "archetypes" -- never seen.
>
> # Now, since I mention some numbers here. Five, three, one, one.
> # another symbolistic view can be seen : The value of the numbers
> # are important. The value used in the Major arcane, as in the
> # minor, of the Tarot goes from 1 to twelve, and reverse. So,
> # all numbers from 0 to 12 have a meaning, and more than that,
> # a charge on their own.
>
> I'm not sure I'm following your logic of 5-3-1-1 and 0->12 here.
> the first is a 5 / 8 / 9 / 10 progression, the latter a 13-unit
> sequence. 10 are the Numbers for sure, and I could even see the
> 13-units mapped to the 13-set of the Small Cards (A->13/K), but
> the relation with Trumps is not at all apparent to me yet (you've
> got 2 extra with the 5-3-1-1 (x2) and 4 too many with the 13 (x2).
> the dodecadology of Tarot isn't something with which I'm really
> familiar. 2=>9 x4 will produce 36 (3x12), and there are 12x2(-2)
> trumps, I guess (usually set into septanaries on account of Fool).
>
> I'd like to hear more about this 12-theme in tarotic numerology,
> if you would expand on it somewhat. if I find anything on it myself
> during my researches I'll post it here. Calaban recently mentioned
> "Secundadeian Beings", but I doubt these are related. :>
>
> # Some of you accustomed to the Kabbalah or Hermetism known for
> # sure what I talk about.
>
> oh sure, the history of (occult) Tarot pretty much *begins* with
> the association of the Major Arcana with the Hebrew letter-numbers
> in "Monde primitif", by Court de Gebelin in the 1780s.
>
> # ...Kabbalist, as many other, had contribute to the making of
> # the Tarot deck....
>
> are you saying here that Basilides was a Kabbalist, or that he
> was instrumental in contacting Kabbalists in the construction
> of the Book of Thoth? there is no end to the number of contentions
> that (occult) Tarot was constructed by Kabbalists (usually on the
> basis of the number 22 in the Trumps), and in some tarotic trads
> (like the GD) there is some French effort to adhere to the source
> of the Sefer Yetzira for attributions of Elements/Planets/Signs,
> right through to today's occult Tarot!!
>
> <snip attempts to co-opt Freemasons into your occult>
>
> # The Tarot is a close relate name to Rota, [which] is the
> # Italian (latin) name for Wheel, and since the Taro(t) is
> # also a anagram of TORA(t), we can see some analogy here.
> # only a T too much, or maybe not??? Why a T at the front,
> # and at the end..? I let guess yourself why... but the
> # Tarot is, indeed, also a Wheel. like a snake biting his
> # own tail, the Ouroboros.A infinity with a value. Zero.
>
> neat poetry. Decker and Dummett stipulate that the TARO-ROTA
> thing was characteristic of the occult society The Hermetic
> Brotherhood of Luxor. there are so many different legends
> about the cards and its content that it can be fun to try to
> untangle them all. pretty much *all* of them are fraudulent!
> it bodes slightly ill for the occult device when all its
> fabulosity crumbles into what Waite called "a poor performance".
>
> # ...each Science, and parts of it, has two aspects: an outside
> # aspect: operative, and an inner aspect: reflective....
>
> sort of like Freemasonry: operative and speculative. neato.
>
> [--- part 3 -- The Symbolism of the Marseille Tarot Deck]
>
> # Here we delve further into the "secrets of the Tarot Deck....
> #
> # The representation I talk here are all from the "Marseille Deck",
> # and especially the one from Grimaud.
>
> I'm curious why you like the Grimaud so much as compared to others.
>
> # ...The First mention of the possible use of cards hang on round
> # 1054 by a Greek grammarian of Lombard origin who's name Was
> # Papias. "Mappa etiam dicitur vel forma ludorum" ; Mappa is a
> # paper blade, who "could" also be used for a card game. But,
> # this isn't surely something close related to our card games
> # or Tarot Deck.
>
> # The first Tarot who appeared have slight differences in the way to
> # "represent" the arcanas, but none over the value given. One very
> # old Tarot is the Visconti deck, who, at first, seemed to be older
> # than The Marseille Deck, and where the comparison of the arcanas
> # give some differences in the meaning that they can be given...
> # but again, no date and proof to be sure that the Visconti is not
> # a bit "younger" than expected..
>
> Kaplan does a decent job of presenting all the old decks including
> the Visconti Sforza in his Encyclopedia of Tarot by U.S. Games.
>
> # So, we came to one conclusion : The most renown, and for sure by
> # reason, Tarot deck is The Marseille Deck by Grimaud.
>
> why is that? I'm not sure I understand how you arrived at this
> conclusion.
>
> # Now, One of the reason that some people dislike this deck is
> # also coming from the extremely aggressive color of the arcanas...
>
> # Seven color are used in this deck, no more, no less.... Seven.
> # Not the "seven color of the rainbow", because this is legend...
>
> ROYGBIV is not legend. making that deck today perhaps I might
> employ these 7, or more fruitfully, some more elegant set like
> R G Bl / O P G Bk.
>
newton, issac and others
> # SIX color and one given by the hand who made it 6 + 1 = 7.
> # because only three primary color exist, and this "seventh"
> # color is only a distortion.
>
> which you detail as: Yellow, Red, Blue, Green, Black, White,
> and Flesh. symbolically, there's a GAPING HOLE without
> Orange and Purple. whatever we might determine Orange and
> Purple could mean within its symbolism, this might be
> considered the 'Shadow Side' of the Grimaud Marseille Tarot
> (made up for in the mardi gras of The Voodoo Tarot? LOL!).
>
> # The Tarot is a Guide for the human, and for what a human
> # can become.
>
> as I understand it, the Marseille was made as a game, not as
> some cosmic guide. if you have evidence to the contrary, I'd
> enjoy hearing about it. thank you.
>
> # here are the colors
> # Yellow : Gold, and everything who is ripe, honing, the
> # work of man under the sun
> # Red : Fire, blood, life.... the rhythmic life, red is
> # a "inside" color
> # Blue : extremely intense here, the color of the sky at
> # the morning, the color of the ocean. Blue is a
> # "outside" color
>
> often water in the Smith-Waite
>
> # Green : Dark and not often utilized, this is not a
> # "young green", but the green of vegetal life.
>
> Emerald? Deep warm Olive? these are on some GD colour scales.
>
> # Black : only in three arcanas, the color of what lies
> # beneath...The color of Al Khemia, the dark
> # soil of Egypt. The color of promises, if you
> # come with your lamp... to enlighten the cave
> # .........the color of unknown.
> # White : Snow, lily, purity.......also the paper blade,
> # virginity and neutrality. this white is there
> # with dots...he is in 19 of the major arcanas.
> # Detail : the sum of the two first Arcanas who
> # didn't use it give the number of the third Arcanas.
>
> I'm not sure I understand this "Detail" comment. elaborate?
>
> # and
> # Flesh : This is the real seventh color... the color of
> # the hand that made it, used in every Arcanas
> # who use human skin representation.
>
> almost Escherian!
>
> # This is the
> # great originality of the Marseille deck....and
> # what make it different.
>
> you think it was one of the first Tarot decks to have the
> flesh-colour, or 7 with the 7th *as* the flesh colour?
>
> # Some objects have also
> # this color, those who are a prolongation of
> # human, and that they must only be seen as it.
>
> very interesting comment!!! I will watch for this and try
> to get a good Grimaud Marseille to view it on! thanks.
>
> # The table in front of the magician, or the
> # Tower struck by lightning...
>
> commentary based on fleshy phallic objects being struck
> by lightning or fleshy tables holding up all the tarot
> suits welcome. :>
>
> nagasiva
light, life, love, liberty
sa87