Origins of the "Blue" LBRP Pentagrams?
Gnome d Plume
As some of you may recall I am the iconoclast who exposed the
hypocraphal "Air Pentacle" in the G.D. Theoricus ritual.
(see: *Secrets of the Golden Dawn Cypher Manuscript*. )
It derived from a 19th century mistaken interpretation of the
Pentagram of the Elements drawing in the Cypher Manuscript and was
perpetuated by rote ever since--even by Regardie.
Along the same line I booted out the "traditional" Blue pentagrams
used in the LBRP and recommended they be projected in bright green.
The reason for this is simple and direct: as magicians we are
projecting magical color onto the astral, we are not, in this case,
seeking to perceive what is there (skrying). The first explanation I
ran across years ago for these "blue" Earth Pentagrams was that they
represented the electro-magnetic "blue" of the astral plain (a passive
skrying effect). (Kraig uses a natural gas stove-top flame for his
"blue" pentagrams) So what? The LBRP ritual is an active projection,
not a skrying exercise. Green is the color of the Earth Element
whereas Blue is the color of the Water Element or magnetic attraction
(see Bardon). However, I have subsequently encountered a more
convoluted (and IMO patronizing) explanation of the "blue" Earth
Pentagrams. It goes this way: "The Pentagram symbol represents
Geburah (Mars-Red) but that is too dangerous for neophytes to be using
(this is specious because in the old G.D. even the LBRP was not given
out south of the Portal Grade)--so these kiddies should be using a
safer "Blue" Pentagram representing the balancing 'Mercy' aspect of
Hesed which lies directly opposite mean old Geburah on the Tree of
Life. Now if this sounds a bit silly, it gets even dumber when we
consider that the Pentagram in this case does not represent Geburah,
it represents the Four Elements in man activated by Spirit; i. e. the
Microcosm. To attribute this greater symbol to Geburah/Mars in this
case is to miss the point of the ritual entirley--But even if we were
projecting Geburah-Mars pentagrams for protection, why would we do
them in blue? Not color reflex certainly--the reflex of Red is Green!
Now if anyone wants to rise up in defense of this long-obsolete
anachronism, I welcome the argument--but perhaps there is somewhere
out there a better explanation for what some people consider the
"traditional" Blue Pentagram in the Lesser Banishing (and Invoking)
Ritual of the Pentagram----if so, please share it with us. *******
Good Magick!
Gnome d Plume
http://members.aol.com/CHSOTA/dmirror.html
Blazin' Tommy D.
I remember last summer someone asked about color representations and my
response then was that I would apply the color spectrum as it is attributed
to yin and yang which is blue (air) to red (fire) of course these
designations are relative: for example salt is yang while water is yin,
&c., yang is aggressive like mars rather than passive like the moon, earth
in yang air is yin, &c.
It does get confusing when either a yin or yang element is applied to
effect a balance of another as to how the result would be represented - for
example salting fruit to render it less yin
Which leads to my recollection of another discussion in similar terms
regarding passive/aggressive designations in terms of male and female.
You see how fortunate we are to have Gnome, not many people would have the
knowledge and background to be able to make such analysis, particularly in
those terms most here relate to:)
Gnome d Plume <Gnome...@aol.com> wrote in article
<3c8cf1b0...@trialnews.peoplepc.com>...
Bruce Burhans
"Gnome d Plume" <Gnome...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3c8cf1b0...@trialnews.peoplepc.com...
Can something that one finds utterly incomprehensible
be fun?
Where's BTD with the proper quotation from a
great philosopher?
Bruce<+>
Josef
He finds it fun to create the impression he is a great magician.
David Cantu
My thinking is entirely different here.
Blue is a frequency of light, the highest frequency detectable by the human
eye is violet, which is the color I "see" when I impress my will upon the
universe. Higher frequency corresponds to higher energy, so in visualizing
violet one is visualizing the highest energy light that the human mind can
conceive of visually, probably a "good thing" under the circumstances.
Actually, I "visualize" the color as extending into the ultraviolet and
green would not do at all, at all.
Also, it was natural for me, since out of body it is a characteristic of the
astral light to be blue or violet tinted and long ago, when I was in High
School, I reflected this in my daily life by wearing Blue tinted
glasses.......spacey man.
David Cantu
"Josef" <a...@z.com> wrote in message
news:kd9q8uoc9vmkuuoic...@4ax.com...
But isn't that a form of magick you accuse him of?
Glamour?
Bruce Burhans
Ahhh! (It didn't work...)
Bruce<+>
hy
For debate purposes only: What comes to mind is that this flaming blue
colour is receptive, and therefore the practitioner is able to receive
the energies of the LBRP through the guidance of the ArchAngels,
thereby refining their microcosm, to begin the Great Work.
hy
yep, me too David, blue was my first astral colour that I felt
extremely comfortable with.
Josef
Josef
wrote:
>
But what does any of this matter? Arbitrary colour correspondences are
not something for an intelligent magician to get too hung up over. It
means as much as you allow it to mean. If you want to understand
colour more organically, and in particular *juxtaposition* of colour,
read Paul Klee's theories, not a qabalist's. Better still, paint.
I would suggest that it would be interesting to hear why anyone would
think these colour attributions were anything other than arbitrary.
However, I am resigned to hearing dogma and waffle only. I mean, a
sephira supposed to be *red* is hardly a *tomato* is it? And even
tomatoes come in green and yellow.
David Cantu
Yeah, but what I am saying is that this is the way I saw it Before any
knowledge of magick and correspondences, the theoretical stuff is a
rationalization of what was already a part of my experience. I found
Gnome's explanation to be a head scratcher and when it led to the conclusion
that green was appropriate I just figured the reasoning was all wrong and
should be based on experience rather than arbitrarily assigned
correspondences out of history. It just so happened that I had a
"reasonable" explanation for the choice as well.
This also seems to have led to people thinking of spiritual states as of a
higher energy and much other stuff that filters down into popular lingo
without knowledge of source.
David Cantu
"hy" <hybi...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:3C8D4357...@shaw.ca...
Before you acquired "knowledge" right, a natural thing?
Mephistopheles
>be fun?
Wouldn't know.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum--Lucretius
John
"David Cantu" <dc...@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Phaj8.91313$dj3.3...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
>
> Blue is a frequency of light, the highest frequency detectable by the
human
> eye is violet, which is the color I "see" when I impress my will upon the
> universe. Higher frequency corresponds to higher energy, so in
visualizing
> violet one is visualizing the highest energy light that the human mind can
> conceive of visually, probably a "good thing" under the circumstances.
But aren't small wavelengths more prone to defraction and absorbtion?
Wouldn't deepest reds work better at a distance or for penetration?
What about monochrome choices (what I use)?
And of course...
Which color would the fashionable mage use?
David Cantu
" Bruce Burhans" <bbur...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Q99j8.7777$P4.6...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Try 'Eraserhead'.
Mephistopheles
>*****This ought to be a fun thread.
Agreed!
>Along the same line I booted out the "traditional" Blue pentagrams
>used in the LBRP and recommended they be projected in bright green...
All of this is fascinating. Just to have said it, let me ask: Does color really
matter? Perception of color is almost an epistemological question. I remember
when I learned colors, in kindergarten, the teacher had colored spheres of
construction paper on the wall; and I wondered, even at 4, whether the color
that we all agreed to call red really looked the same to all of us. Bear in
mind, this was in the time when color TVs were rare, and after the first time I
saw one, I found myself staring at my family's B&W screen wondering what color
things "really" were.
As far as I know, the entire LBRP ritual is an adaptation of an Orthodox Jewish
prayer that is used to protect infants, and involves no color at all: Li-fney
Rafael, u-me-achorai Gabriel, u-mi-mini Mikael, u-mi-smoli Uriel, ve-al ro'shi
Shekhinat-El.
Lastly, for fun, and completely irrelevantly: I knew this kid who had
green-brown color blindness. He was stealing his Paw's whiskey, and adding
water and food color to mask his sin. Guess what color led to the spanking...
Regards,
--M
David Cantu
"John" <johnw...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:GUbj8.306$_A1.1...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
> Questions for the physicist.
>
> "David Cantu" <dc...@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:Phaj8.91313$dj3.3...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
> >
> > Blue is a frequency of light, the highest frequency detectable by the
> human
> > eye is violet, which is the color I "see" when I impress my will upon
the
> > universe. Higher frequency corresponds to higher energy, so in
> visualizing
> > violet one is visualizing the highest energy light that the human mind
can
> > conceive of visually, probably a "good thing" under the circumstances.
>
> But aren't small wavelengths more prone to defraction and absorbtion?
>
> Wouldn't deepest reds work better at a distance or for penetration?
Well, that is a very good point.
On the other hand, one usually does want to limit collateral damage.
>
> What about monochrome choices (what I use)?
Sepia tone??
>
> And of course...
>
> Which color would the fashionable mage use?
>
>
Mauve...Of COURSE!!!
>
Josef
wrote:
When I paint a picture, beforehand I have lots of ideas about what
colours I plan to use. Then when it comes to the actual "doing" of it
colours mingle and mix, I use the "wrong" brush, all sorts of things
happen, *but* if I am in the right state of mind then the result can
be much better than I could have achieved with planning. And this is
precisely the attitide I take to colour in magical work. Colour is
important, but you don't develop responsiveness to colour from
unchallenged correspondences. It took me ages to train myself to stop
thinking of mars as red and venus as green. That doesn't mean I don't
think that way still, simply that I am not *bound* to think that way.
David Cantu
Much the same occurs with my music, only the colors are sounds.
The conditions are set, but the creation takes over itself as a spontaneous
response to the given moment.
Binding is useful as a temporary measure, not a permanent trap.
hy
> > > School, I reflected this in my daily life by wearing Blue tinted
> > > glasses.......spacey man.
> >
> > yep, me too David, blue was my first astral colour that I felt
> > extremely comfortable with.
>
> Before you acquired "knowledge" right, a natural thing?
yes. I mean, I played with all of the other colours. but this colour
in particular seemed important at the time. I have changed since then
though. But different colours seem to do different things for me. At
that time, blue was the strongest and most effective.
Gnome d Plume
******David:
This thread was not intended as a fool's trap--even though Joseph
stuck his foot in it. Your idea is interesting but not applicable
because we are not dealing with the highest frequencies in what is
essentially the physical manifestation plane (Earth and Earth
Element--the "Daughter" of the Tetragrammaton). Any one familiar with
the practice of Golden Dawn Magick would be able to follow my
explanation above with no trouble even though they might not agree
with it. I'm really surprised that no one here so far even seems to
even understand what I'm talking about, much less give me a better
rationale for "blue" earth pentagrams. The LBRP is so basic to Western
Magick that I have difficulty understanding how someone can be a
magician without having a practical knowledge of it. maybe this
"Armchair Magician" thread was really on the nose after all.*****
catherine yronwode
> > Along the same line I booted out the "traditional" Blue pentagrams
> > used in the LBRP and recommended they be projected in bright green.
[snip; and replied to in another post]
> Can something that one finds utterly incomprehensible
> be fun?
Okay, Bruce! We have established in a few short weeks that you don't
practice spell-casting magic, that you don't use any material adjuncts
to your magic and find such things extraneous because, in your schema,
"magic = belief," that you have not read any of Crowley's books on
magic, and now that you don't know much about GD / hermetic style rites.
So, do you like "Call of Cthulu"? Do you happen to know your sanity
score?
cat yronwode
Hoodoo in Theory and Practice -- http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html
Josef
wrote:
I'm always treading on shits.
>Your idea is interesting but not applicable
>because we are not dealing with the highest frequencies in what is
>essentially the physical manifestation plane (Earth and Earth
>Element--the "Daughter" of the Tetragrammaton). Any one familiar with
>the practice of Golden Dawn Magick would be able to follow my
>explanation above with no trouble even though they might not agree
>with it. I'm really surprised that no one here so far even seems to
>even understand what I'm talking about, much less give me a better
>rationale for "blue" earth pentagrams. The LBRP is so basic to Western
>Magick that I have difficulty understanding how someone can be a
>magician without having a practical knowledge of it. maybe this
>"Armchair Magician" thread was really on the nose after all.*****
Ha ha. The subtext emerges from our predictable little hamster Frater
Fatuous. See you a mile off Gnomey baby.
catherine yronwode
Thanks for a remarkable post on a subject that has intrigued me. In the
past, when studying both GD and BOTA style material, i would run across
these ... oddities .. regarding ....
No, waitm let me back uo a bit...
For me, the oddities started when i read Crowley's 777 -- that
noble-but-doomed "attempt to shovel the glimpse into the ditch of what
each one means" (to quote Bob Dylan's "Gates of Eden").
I spent years in search of the perfect, and perfectly logical ascription
system, uniting metals, colours, planets, perfumes, herbs, sephiroth,
and so forth. And i ran up against these impossibilities, and one of
them was that "blue / earth" thing. It niggled at me, but i never said,
"The heck with it; i am changing it!" Instead i moved away from the
rigidity of such all-encompassing magical systems and wandered off into
the less precise field of folk-magic.
But i am glad you took a different approach. I mean, call it iconoclasm
or call it thoughtful development. You took the bull by the horns.
(This was not fawning admiration, just a tip o' the ol' Hatlo hat.)
cat yronwode
Freemasonry for Women ------- http://www.luckymojo.com/comasonry.html
PaulTOlson
>used in the LBRP and recommended they be projected in bright green.
Yes, but you still haven't told us how many angels can dance on the head of a
pin.
Paul T. Olson
David Cantu
Oh, I followed it, it is just not in my nature to see green here (see
below), but then I have a gray/green deficiency.
> I'm really surprised that no one here so far even seems to
> even understand what I'm talking about, much less give me a better
> rationale for "blue" earth pentagrams. The LBRP is so basic to Western
> Magick that I have difficulty understanding how someone can be a
> magician without having a practical knowledge of it. maybe this
> "Armchair Magician" thread was really on the nose after all.*****
Had you followed what I said you would have seen that the reason I use
violet was due to experience before I became a magician and learned any
reasons for it. This would fit your description:
"they represented the electro-magnetic "blue" of the astral plain (a passive
skrying effect)."
though at the time I didn't know what skrying or the astral plane were.
Now, I concur that the "balance Geburah with Chesed" explanation sounds like
an elaborate rationalization and strays from the point, however the use of
the Pentagram for active defense (somewhat Martian) and the correlation of 5
and Geburah should probably not be ignored and is at least convenient. But
it is also true that we use the Pentagram of Earth in this ritual typically
because of its correlation to the 4 Elements activated or controlled by
spirit. All of this gels together pretty well.
But the reason I use blue, or violet, is more like the following rational,
if I need one:
I am marking or stirring the "astral" substance, like passing my hand
through water, and I leave a trace or disturbance in my wake. In the water
case the disturbance is not a different thing from the water but is an
energy disturbance in the water, and is the same color as the water. So in
the astral case it may appear that I am tracing another color (blue) in the
air from my minds eye point of view, but all I am doing in the astral is
creating a disturbance of the astral substance itself. Since I skry the
astral substance as "blue" it then makes sense to visualize it as such.
None of this is Why I do it, I do it because, since I was a child, that is
the way I have seen things in the "astral" as sparkly and blue tinted. All
this other stuff is stuff I made up tonight as a way of rationalizing that
experience. Since it has never been green for me, no amount of concept
juggling is likely to persuade me to change to green.
One could argue that arriving at a color by any type of logic or historical
reasoning, no matter how erudite, as opposed to experience, might place one
squarely in the chair oneself.
Also, those who pointed out the way the term Armchair Magician is used might
take note of your quick resort to that "sentence".
Gnome, have you ever been out of body to percieve the astral from that point
of view yourself?
David Cantu
"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:3C8D6B...@luckymojo.com...
> Bruce Burhans wrote:
> >
> > "Gnome d Plume" <Gnome...@aol.com> wrot
>
> > > Along the same line I booted out the "traditional" Blue pentagrams
> > > used in the LBRP and recommended they be projected in bright green.
>
> [snip; and replied to in another post]
>
> > Can something that one finds utterly incomprehensible
> > be fun?
>
> Okay, Bruce! We have established in a few short weeks that you don't
> practice spell-casting magic, that you don't use any material adjuncts
> to your magic and find such things extraneous because, in your schema,
> "magic = belief," that you have not read any of Crowley's books on
> magic, and now that you don't know much about GD / hermetic style rites.
>
> So, do you like "Call of Cthulu"? Do you happen to know your sanity
> score?
>
mine's pretty low now:-(
catherine yronwode
>
> Hi Gnome!
>
> >*****This ought to be a fun thread.
>
> Agreed!
>
> >Along the same line I booted out the "traditional" Blue pentagrams
> >used in the LBRP and recommended they be projected in bright green...
>
> All of this is fascinating. Just to have said it, let me ask: Does color really
> matter? Perception of color is almost an epistemological question. I remember
> when I learned colors, in kindergarten, the teacher had colored spheres of
> construction paper on the wall; and I wondered, even at 4, whether the color
> that we all agreed to call red really looked the same to all of us. Bear in
> mind, this was in the time when color TVs were rare, and after the first time I
> saw one, I found myself staring at my family's B&W screen wondering what color
> things "really" were.
>
> As far as I know, the entire LBRP ritual is an adaptation of an Orthodox Jewish
> prayer that is used to protect infants, and involves no color at all: Li-fney
> Rafael, u-me-achorai Gabriel, u-mi-mini Mikael, u-mi-smoli Uriel, ve-al ro'shi
> Shekhinat-El.
Also a good point! Gee -- two coherent posts in a row! Is this the old
alt.magick i have known and loved? Make it three and we can call it a
thread!
cat yronwode
John
>
> "John" <johnw...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> news:GUbj8.306$_A1.1...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
> > Questions for the physicist.
> >
>
> Well, that is a very good point.
> On the other hand, one usually does want to limit collateral damage.
Just fine tune the sympathies and strengthen the contagion. Collateral
damage is just another way of saying, "Wow! Did I do that?"
> > What about monochrome choices (what I use)?
>
> Sepia tone??
No browns, just black, white and many grays.
> > And of course...
> >
> > Which color would the fashionable mage use?
>
> Mauve...Of COURSE!!!
<chuckle>
How silly of me, of course!
Josef
wrote:
<snip>
.
>Also, those who pointed out the way the term Armchair Magician is used might
>take note of your quick resort to that "sentence".
Well exactly, wasn't this the entire point, that it is a term of abuse
employed by those who wish to make themselves seem better and more
experienced. But Frater Fatuous can always be relied upon to provide a
graphic example of the failings of a magician. It was only going to be
a matter of time, he is superbly predictable, and that's what makes
the alt.magick soap opera so amusing at times.
John
> score?
Infinite.
Asiya
>
> This thread was not intended as a fool's trap--even though Joseph
> stuck his foot in it.
> maybe this
> "Armchair Magician" thread was really on the nose after all.
Really Gnome, are such comments necessary? It gets tiresome after a
while.
> I'm really surprised that no one here so far even seems to
> even understand what I'm talking about, much less give me a better
> rationale for "blue" earth pentagrams.
I understood it. What is funny is that I did the same thing on my own,
for the same reasons, when I began doing the LBRP.
Asiya
**********
www.geocities.com/shadowsofasiya/
Eat the meatballs to email me.
Asiya
>
> However, I have subsequently encountered a more
> convoluted (and IMO patronizing) explanation of the "blue" Earth
> Pentagrams. It goes this way: "The Pentagram symbol represents
> Geburah (Mars-Red) but that is too dangerous for neophytes to be
using
> (this is specious because in the old G.D. even the LBRP was not
given
> out south of the Portal Grade)--so these kiddies should be using a
> safer "Blue" Pentagram representing the balancing 'Mercy' aspect of
> Hesed which lies directly opposite mean old Geburah on the Tree of
> Life.
Just curious, where is this explanation from?
David Cantu
Note that the Armchair sentence was pulled out on the very first response he
made to the thread, while at the same time claiming it wasn't a trap.
<self edit :->
This always comes down to the question of whether we are representing
something in the mind that is real regardless of whether we perceive it or
not, or whether this about a logic system that a bunch of old men made up
without reference to an underlying reality. I tend to lean towards the
former view while Gnome tends to lean toward the later, regardless of the
dance steps he taps around this question without ever answering it.
Josef
wrote:
>
>"Josef" <a...@z.com> wrote in message
>news:o2tq8ucihpqv61sa1...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 03:00:23 GMT, "David Cantu" <dc...@houston.rr.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>> .
>> >Also, those who pointed out the way the term Armchair Magician is used
>might
>> >take note of your quick resort to that "sentence".
>>
>> Well exactly, wasn't this the entire point, that it is a term of abuse
>> employed by those who wish to make themselves seem better and more
>> experienced. But Frater Fatuous can always be relied upon to provide a
>> graphic example of the failings of a magician. It was only going to be
>> a matter of time, he is superbly predictable, and that's what makes
>> the alt.magick soap opera so amusing at times.
>>
>
>Note that the Armchair sentence was pulled out on the very first response he
>made to the thread, while at the same time claiming it wasn't a trap.
That was beautiful, I like symmetry in the irony. I will confess I
registered his underlying motivation from the start and gave him a bit
of a magical nudge to reveal his hand. Yes, I manipulated him. How
about that for a bit of "armchair magick"? Worthy of Joel Biroco that
one.
>
><self edit :->
>
>This always comes down to the question of whether we are representing
>something in the mind that is real regardless of whether we perceive it or
>not, or whether this about a logic system that a bunch of old men made up
>without reference to an underlying reality. I tend to lean towards the
>former view while Gnome tends to lean toward the later, regardless of the
>dance steps he taps around this question without ever answering it.
He is a creature of habit, pot-bound, a slave to his patterns, but
it's amusing as hell to see the little hamster get on his exercise
wheel.
catherine yronwode
>
> "catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrot:
> > So, do you like "Call of Cthulu"? Do you happen to know your sanity
> > score?
>
> mine's pretty low now:-(
Aw, too bad. Well, i was asking Bruce, not you, but sorry to hear
you're off the bus and into the wild wood.
cat yronwode
David Cantu
Too many bozos on the bus.
David Cantu
He hasn't been around for a while, but I know he is carrying on well and
still planning on bringing out a new volume of KAOS.
Joe Cosby
feverishly;
thunder crashed, Gnome...@aol.com (Gnome d Plume) laughed madly,
then wrote:
>*****This ought to be a fun thread.
>As some of you may recall I am the iconoclast who exposed the
>hypocraphal "Air Pentacle" in the G.D. Theoricus ritual.
>(see: *Secrets of the Golden Dawn Cypher Manuscript*. )
>It derived from a 19th century mistaken interpretation of the
>Pentagram of the Elements drawing in the Cypher Manuscript and was
>perpetuated by rote ever since--even by Regardie.
>Along the same line I booted out the "traditional" Blue pentagrams
>used in the LBRP and recommended they be projected in bright green.
>The reason for this is simple and direct: as magicians we are
>projecting magical color onto the astral, we are not, in this case,
>seeking to perceive what is there (skrying). The first explanation I
>ran across years ago for these "blue" Earth Pentagrams was that they
>represented the electro-magnetic "blue" of the astral plain (a passive
>skrying effect). (Kraig uses a natural gas stove-top flame for his
>"blue" pentagrams) So what? The LBRP ritual is an active projection,
>not a skrying exercise. Green is the color of the Earth Element
>whereas Blue is the color of the Water Element or magnetic attraction
>(see Bardon). However, I have subsequently encountered a more
>convoluted (and IMO patronizing) explanation of the "blue" Earth
>Pentagrams. It goes this way: "The Pentagram symbol represents
>Geburah (Mars-Red) but that is too dangerous for neophytes to be using
>(this is specious because in the old G.D. even the LBRP was not given
>out south of the Portal Grade)--so these kiddies should be using a
>safer "Blue" Pentagram representing the balancing 'Mercy' aspect of
>Hesed which lies directly opposite mean old Geburah on the Tree of
>Life. Now if this sounds a bit silly, it gets even dumber when we
>consider that the Pentagram in this case does not represent Geburah,
>it represents the Four Elements in man activated by Spirit; i. e. the
>Microcosm. To attribute this greater symbol to Geburah/Mars in this
>case is to miss the point of the ritual entirley--But even if we were
>projecting Geburah-Mars pentagrams for protection, why would we do
>them in blue? Not color reflex certainly--the reflex of Red is Green!
> Now if anyone wants to rise up in defense of this long-obsolete
>anachronism, I welcome the argument--but perhaps there is somewhere
>out there a better explanation for what some people consider the
>"traditional" Blue Pentagram in the Lesser Banishing (and Invoking)
>Ritual of the Pentagram----if so, please share it with us. *******
While I often respect your opinions, you're utterly full of shit on
this.
The blue effect is a common manifestation of astral vision. There
ISN'T a reason for it. It's like asking "why is the grass green?"
It's a silly question but sillier yet is HAVING AN ANSWER.
It just is.
Chalk it up to how our brains are wired. It goes MUCH further back
than DMK.
MUCH further back.
Blue is simply the color that the brain uses to represent basic astral
experiences. It's got nothing at all to do with correspondences.
--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.home.mindspring.com
Jetzt bin ich leicht,
jetzt fliege ich,
jetzt sehe ich mich unter mir,
jetzt tanzt ein Gott durch mich.
~Nietzsche
Sig by Kookie Jar 5.98d http://go.to/generalfrenetics/
Gnome d Plume
<asiya_...@MEATBALLSmindspring.com> wrote:
>"Gnome d Plume" <Gnome...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:3c8cf1b0...@trialnews.peoplepc.com...
>>
>> However, I have subsequently encountered a more
>> convoluted (and IMO patronizing) explanation of the "blue" Earth
>> Pentagrams. It goes this way: "The Pentagram symbol represents
>> Geburah (Mars-Red) but that is too dangerous for neophytes to be
>using
>> (this is specious because in the old G.D. even the LBRP was not
>given
>> out south of the Portal Grade)--so these kiddies should be using a
>> safer "Blue" Pentagram representing the balancing 'Mercy' aspect of
>> Hesed which lies directly opposite mean old Geburah on the Tree of
>> Life.
>
>Just curious, where is this explanation from?
*******You know, that's one of the things I'm trying to find out. It
isn't in the original G.D. teachings but even Regardie ended up doing
it (on his audio tape) and Kraig repeats it without explanation. So,
where does it come from? You tell me.******
Gnome
Josef
wrote:
That's the spirit. Jugular not ankles.
>
>The blue effect is a common manifestation of astral vision. There
>ISN'T a reason for it. It's like asking "why is the grass green?"
Er... chlorophyll....? Middle of the visible spectrum to maximise
light absorption for conversion into basic sugars of life? There's a
reason it's not ultra-violet.
Gnome d Plume
wrote:
****You are right about this to some degree. You like "blue"
pentagrams because this reminds you of the electric blue aura upon
entering the astral (yes, I go there every Thursday night) but I am
pointing out that the LBRP is an active projection, not a passive
skrying. This is what you don't seem able to grasp. It has very little
to do with seeing what's already there, and as for "old men"
developing it, well I did develop the "green" Earth pentagram after
age forty, so I suppose you are right there also.*****
Gnome
>
>
Joe Cosby
thunder crashed, Josef <a...@z.com> laughed madly, then wrote:
>Er... chlorophyll....? Middle of the visible spectrum to maximise
>light absorption for conversion into basic sugars of life? There's a
>reason it's not ultra-violet.
the point being, it isn't a question of convention or tradition.
There isn't a choice about it.
--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.home.mindspring.com
> The question is, alt.slack, a black hole for the mind or just
> electronic crack for our pipes?
i have written some incredibly poor sentences in my time
amongst the chaff and yet i can tell if that is a question?
Gnome d Plume
wrote:
>Gnome...@aol.com (Gnome d Plume) hunched over a computer, typing
*******Joe:
You totally and completely missed the point: here, please go over this
again carefully word-for-word:
Along the same line I booted out the "traditional" Blue pentagrams
used in the LBRP and recommended they be projected in bright green.
The reason for this is simple and direct: as magicians we are
projecting magical color onto the astral, we are not, in this case,
seeking to perceive what is there (skrying). The first explanation I
ran across years ago for these "blue" Earth Pentagrams was that they
represented the electro-magnetic "blue" of the astral plain (a passive
skrying effect). (Kraig uses a natural gas stove-top flame for his
"blue" pentagrams) So what? The LBRP ritual is an active projection,
not a skrying exercise. Green is the color of the Earth Element
Now, do you see what I'm getting at?
No?
Sorry, I tried......*****
Gnome
Asiya
news:3c8da5d0....@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
>
> the point being, it isn't a question of convention or tradition.
>
> There isn't a choice about it.
No choice? Why are you so sure?
catherine yronwode
>
> "Joe Cosby" <joec...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:3c8da5d0....@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
> >
> > the point being, it isn't a question of convention or tradition.
> >
> > There isn't a choice about it.
>
> No choice? Why are you so sure?
Frankly, i visualize ornage-and-black far more easily than
gas-flame-blue "astral" light, although, with practiuce i have learned
to visualize any colour on command.
cat yronwode
Josef
wrote:
>Josef <a...@z.com> hunched over a computer, typing feverishly;
>thunder crashed, Josef <a...@z.com> laughed madly, then wrote:
>
>
>>Er... chlorophyll....? Middle of the visible spectrum to maximise
>>light absorption for conversion into basic sugars of life? There's a
>>reason it's not ultra-violet.
>
>the point being, it isn't a question of convention or tradition.
>
>There isn't a choice about it.
There isn't a choice about green for grass, no, it's a given, but
colours for occult attributions are arbitrary, unless you are saying
that, for instance, the astral *is* blue. The sky is blue, a lot of
the time, my trousers and shirt are blue, but the astral is whatever
damn colour. Are you putting up an argument for the consensus
coloration of the astral? Of sephiroth? As inherent qualities in these
abstracts? Surely not...
Joe Cosby
Yeah, I know, I'm over the edge.
What I'm saying is, there is a class of experience which manifests
itself in terms of blue.
Your reasons for rejecting that in favor of green make sense, but
don't matter.
The choice of blue is based simply on the fact that certain gate
experiences of perception are going to occur in this color blue.
Similar to the old zen adage "point your finger at the moon, but the
fool looks at the finger, not the moon" the choice of blue is a
description of, metaphorically, the moon. The astral plane, the
experience of reality, the altered state of consciousness, whatever
you prefer.
I know you've had a lot of experience with the altered states of magic
and don't mean to impugn that.
But the 'electric blue' astral experience is very widespread. It far
predates modern magick and in fact far predates the human discovery of
electricity.
By encouraging the novice to visualize in terms of blue, they were
trying to trigger that experience.
It's hardwired in the brain. You can no more reject it in favor of
green, than you could reject the color blue as a means of encouraging
people who had no experience of looking up as a way of describing the
sky.
The sky isn't green, it's blue. And telling people to look up at the
green sky will simply make it that much more less likely that they
look up and see the blue thing up there.
Read spiritual/mystical literature outside of the western occult
tradtion. How often do you find various descriptions of some form of
'electric blue'?
--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.home.mindspring.com
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but with a whimper.
T.S. Eliot
Joe Cosby
thunder crashed, Josef <a...@z.com> laughed madly, then wrote:
>On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 06:53:46 GMT, joec...@mindspring.com (Joe Cosby)
>wrote:
>
>>Josef <a...@z.com> hunched over a computer, typing feverishly;
>>thunder crashed, Josef <a...@z.com> laughed madly, then wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Er... chlorophyll....? Middle of the visible spectrum to maximise
>>>light absorption for conversion into basic sugars of life? There's a
>>>reason it's not ultra-violet.
>>
>>the point being, it isn't a question of convention or tradition.
>>
>>There isn't a choice about it.
>
>There isn't a choice about green for grass, no, it's a given, but
>colours for occult attributions are arbitrary, unless you are saying
>that, for instance, the astral *is* blue. The sky is blue, a lot of
>the time, my trousers and shirt are blue, but the astral is whatever
>damn colour. Are you putting up an argument for the consensus
>coloration of the astral?
Am I putting up an argument?
I am saying that there is a universal experience of electric blue
which is a part of occult development, and this is why the electric
blue color is used.
>Of sephiroth?
What do the sephiroth have to do with it?
How's the weather out there in left field?
>As inherent qualities in these
>abstracts?
By 'these abstracts' you mean 'the sephiroth and the astral' both?
Or what do you mean?
How's the weather in left field in Timbuktu?
>Surely not...
Don't call me Shirley.
--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.home.mindspring.com
"Why of course the people don't want war... But, after all, it is
the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always
a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy,
or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of
the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are
being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
exposing the country to danger."
-- Hermann Goering At the Nuremberg trials.
Josef
wrote:
>Josef <a...@z.com> hunched over a computer, typing feverishly;
>thunder crashed, Josef <a...@z.com> laughed madly, then wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 06:53:46 GMT, joec...@mindspring.com (Joe Cosby)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Josef <a...@z.com> hunched over a computer, typing feverishly;
>>>thunder crashed, Josef <a...@z.com> laughed madly, then wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Er... chlorophyll....? Middle of the visible spectrum to maximise
>>>>light absorption for conversion into basic sugars of life? There's a
>>>>reason it's not ultra-violet.
>>>
>>>the point being, it isn't a question of convention or tradition.
>>>
>>>There isn't a choice about it.
>>
>>There isn't a choice about green for grass, no, it's a given, but
>>colours for occult attributions are arbitrary, unless you are saying
>>that, for instance, the astral *is* blue. The sky is blue, a lot of
>>the time, my trousers and shirt are blue, but the astral is whatever
>>damn colour. Are you putting up an argument for the consensus
>>coloration of the astral?
>
>Am I putting up an argument?
>
>I am saying that there is a universal experience of electric blue
>which is a part of occult development, and this is why the electric
>blue color is used.
Oh-huh. (Rolls eyes upwards in sockets to camera). Really? How
interesting. Is it still a universal experience if I have had a
different experience?
>
>>Of sephiroth?
>
>What do the sephiroth have to do with it?
I was checking whether it was just the astral that has inherent
coloration in your view.
>
>How's the weather out there in left field?
>
>>As inherent qualities in these
>>abstracts?
>
>By 'these abstracts' you mean 'the sephiroth and the astral' both?
>
>Or what do you mean?
Oh dear, I am proving too much for your little brain again.
>
>How's the weather in left field in Timbuktu?
>
>>Surely not...
>
>Don't call me Shirley.
So you think the astral is inherently blue. Amazing. Are you the same
Joe Cosby who used to be intelligent? What happened?
Josef
wrote:
>Josef <a...@z.com> hunched over a computer, typing feverishly;
>thunder crashed, Josef <a...@z.com> laughed madly, then wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 06:53:46 GMT, joec...@mindspring.com (Joe Cosby)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Josef <a...@z.com> hunched over a computer, typing feverishly;
>>>thunder crashed, Josef <a...@z.com> laughed madly, then wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Er... chlorophyll....? Middle of the visible spectrum to maximise
>>>>light absorption for conversion into basic sugars of life? There's a
>>>>reason it's not ultra-violet.
>>>
>>>the point being, it isn't a question of convention or tradition.
>>>
>>>There isn't a choice about it.
>>
>>There isn't a choice about green for grass, no, it's a given, but
>>colours for occult attributions are arbitrary, unless you are saying
>>that, for instance, the astral *is* blue. The sky is blue, a lot of
>>the time, my trousers and shirt are blue, but the astral is whatever
>>damn colour. Are you putting up an argument for the consensus
>>coloration of the astral?
>
>Am I putting up an argument?
>
>I am saying that there is a universal experience of electric blue
>which is a part of occult development, and this is why the electric
>blue color is used.
>
By the way, perhaps you can help me, I've always wondered about this,
is the Moon made of cheese?
catherine yronwode
> >>>I booted out the "traditional" Blue pentagrams
> >>>used in the LBRP and recommended they be projected in bright green.
> >>>The reason for this is simple and direct: as magicians we are
> >>>projecting magical color onto the astral, we are not, in this case,
> >>>seeking to perceive what is there (skrying).
joec...@mindspring.com (Joe Cosby) wrote:
> >>While I often respect your opinions, you're utterly full of shit on
> >>this.
> >>
> >>The blue effect is a common manifestation of astral vision. There
> >>ISN'T a reason for it. It's like asking "why is the grass green?"
> >>It's a silly question but sillier yet is HAVING AN ANSWER.
> >>
> >>It just is.
> >>
> >>Chalk it up to how our brains are wired.
[...]
> >>Blue is simply the color that the brain uses to represent basic
> >>astral experiences. It's got nothing at all to do with
> >>correspondences.
[...]
Sure, Joe, the "blue bindu" of Hindu tantrism comes to mind.
But in my experience, the LBRP is a visualization, not a passive
reception, just as Poke said. That is, it is directed by the operator's
will; it is not something he sees because it is a "universal"sign of a
certain state of consciousness.
Or are you claiming that the LBRP taps into some sort of "primal"
(rather than attribution-derived or schematic) reality?
If so, do you think the same is true of the other elements of the LBRP,
such as the concept of a pentagram? This is, would you also claim that
the pentagram shape, like the elecric blue colour, is hardwired into the
brain?
I mean, if you are, that's interesting ... but what do you say to folks
who say that they don't feel or see that hard-wiring the way you do,
that they think of the LBRP is an exercise in magico-Christian symbolism
developed from an old Jewish prayer?
To me, the LBRP is simply one of many rites, not a "primal" or
"archetypal" rite. (A "primal" rite, to me, might be one that ionvolved
sexual orgasm, or fixed gazing, or some such physio-mental work.)
Thus, as i see it, not being a "primal" rite, the LBRP does not key
directly into my neural hard-wiring, but rather is successful for me
insofar as i can impose its arbitrary (historically mediated, culturally
mediated, symbolically mediated) constraints upon my consciousness and
accept the paradigm which governs its application. .
Joe Cosby
feverishly;
thunder crashed, catherine yronwode <c...@luckymojo.com> laughed madly,
then wrote:
No, that it's designed to trigger such experiences.
>If so, do you think the same is true of the other elements of the LBRP,
>such as the concept of a pentagram? This is, would you also claim that
>the pentagram shape, like the elecric blue colour, is hardwired into the
>brain?
>
Well very likely ... the pentagram and hexagram are IIRC among the
oldest known human symbols.
.... let me be careful here though ... I don't think that the LBRP is
necessarily some absolutely right collection of cosmic wisdom, more
just that there are bits of it which have been carried through because
they have an intuitive 'rightness' to the people who have propagated
it, which they themselves might very well not themselves understand.
And in the same vein, no doubt things which are quite wrong.
But I don think that you have to be careful what you throw out for
symbolic/cultural/logical reasons, because sometimes information is
being carried in magical rituals which isn't immediately obvious.
>I mean, if you are, that's interesting ... but what do you say to folks
>who say that they don't feel or see that hard-wiring the way you do,
>that they think of the LBRP is an exercise in magico-Christian symbolism
>developed from an old Jewish prayer?
>
... it can certainly be that.
Make the pentagrams green, and it's almost certainly nothing but that.
x^)
>To me, the LBRP is simply one of many rites, not a "primal" or
>"archetypal" rite. (A "primal" rite, to me, might be one that ionvolved
>sexual orgasm, or fixed gazing, or some such physio-mental work.)
>
Or to the roots of consciousness?
What forms might that take?
>Thus, as i see it, not being a "primal" rite, the LBRP does not key
>directly into my neural hard-wiring, but rather is successful for me
>insofar as i can impose its arbitrary (historically mediated, culturally
>mediated, symbolically mediated) constraints upon my consciousness and
>accept the paradigm which governs its application. .
>
But if the electric blue experience is, in fact, very widespread, you
might be wrong, mightn't you?
There might be elements which are genetic and not simply cultural or
arbitrary.
>cat yronwode
>
>Hoodoo in Theory and Practice -- http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html
--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.home.mindspring.com
thirty eight ... thirty nine ... fourty
- Two times
Adia
> thunder crashed, Josef <a...@z.com> laughed madly, then wrote:
>
>
> >Er... chlorophyll....? Middle of the visible spectrum to maximise light
absorption for conversion into basic sugars of life? There's a reason it's
not ultra-violet.
>
> the point being, it isn't a question of convention or tradition.
Even if it were, by his own G.'.D.'. defintions
he is wrong on two counts, one for sure: First,
the color of the water tattwa is silver, not blue;
blue is air, and secondly, if he were to find it
suitable to change the earth pentagram from
blue to yellow-green, why hadn't he changed it
to yellow? Yellow is Earth in the G.'.D.'. tattwa
classification, of which, incidently, is the skrying
complimentary color of blue. Earth/Air, Astral/Etheric
are so cohesively existent that it's frequecy of vibration
and color are conjoined. Yellow-green is Solar in the
King-Scale, hardly Lunar or of Terra, especially
at her cruedest manifestation.
" Change not the style of a letter."
A. Crowley
circa 1904
Asiya
> Asiya wrote:
> > "Joe Cosby" <joec...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> > news:3c8da5d0....@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
> > >
> > > the point being, it isn't a question of convention or tradition.
> > >
> > > There isn't a choice about it.
> >
> > No choice? Why are you so sure?
>
> Good question! And why all this "jugular not ankles" shit?
>
> Frankly, i visualize ornage-and-black far more easily than
> gas-flame-blue "astral" light,
Ahh, Samhain colors. :)
> although, with practiuce i have learned
> to visualize any colour on command.
I played around with this when I was Wiccan. While casting a circle, I
would trace pentagrams at the four quarters. In the beginning of my
practice, I visualized them blue. After a while, I began using colors
that corresponded to the purpose of that particular ritual or spell.
It made the energy of the circle feel stronger. An extra boost of
symbolism.
Blazin' Tommy D.
CI
Josef <a...@z.com> wrote in article
<rsgq8ughgr8ifv1g3...@4ax.com>...
> On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 22:34:23 GMT, "David Cantu" <dc...@houston.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Gnome d Plume" <Gnome...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >news:3c8cf1b0...@trialnews.peoplepc.com...
> >> *****This ought to be a fun thread.
>
> I would suggest that it would be interesting to hear why anyone would
> think these colour attributions were anything other than arbitrary.
> However, I am resigned to hearing dogma and waffle only. I mean, a
> sephira supposed to be *red* is hardly a *tomato* is it? And even
> tomatoes come in green and yellow.
BTD: Colors are associated with an effect. A simple example is combustion
or viewed another way, fire. There are types of fire which produce/effect
different degrees of heat. A coal fire (and other fossil fuel) is hotter
than a wood fire. The effect is seen in a blue flame or red-yellow flame,
respectively. Yang produces yin.
An example without color is vaporization and evaporation of water -e.g.,
resulting from the application of heat, yang: the speeding up of molecules
(yang) expands outward (yin). Cold from outdoors (yin) applied to warm
(yang) glass (liquid) results in condensation - water molecules from the
air collect on the glass, which return to the air by evaporation.
Colors are determinate by their wavelength, a long wavelength is yin.
Solar light, for example, has characteristics different from other forms of
light created by combustion so it must be really fucking hot to produce
such intensity of light. A yang action with a yin effect.
So is astral light actually light, is it something we imagine -e.g., our
soul's burning up OR is it merely white?
[Some people are saying blue which reminds me of Billy Idol's "Blue
Highway"?]
A long time ago I was very good friends with this guy's fiancée, he was
jealous and we had rehearsals for a show we were doing and I hate
distraction. So I did a special embroidery of Mercury in the middle of my
chest in deep crimson. He approached me from behind to startle me but I was
prepared. I turned around quickly, opened my shirt, while blanketing my
consciousness with Waite's Knight of Swords. He walked away and never
bothered me again and no one noticed. What do you think he'd do if it was
pink:0
>
> >
> >
> >> Good Magick!
> >>
> >> Gnome d Plume
> >> http://members.aol.com/CHSOTA/dmirror.html
> >
>
>
Blazin' Tommy D.
Asiya <asiya_...@MEATBALLSmindspring.com> wrote in article
<a6k8pc$90p$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net>...
Bassos
3c8cf1b0...@trialnews.peoplepc.com...
> *****This ought to be a fun thread.
> Along the same line I booted out the "traditional" Blue pentagrams
> used in the LBRP and recommended they be projected in bright green.
> The reason for this is simple and direct: as magicians we are
> projecting magical color onto the astral, we are not, in this case,
> seeking to perceive what is there (skrying).
So continuing this line of thought, using what is there to project doesn't
work ?
> The first explanation I
> ran across years ago for these "blue" Earth Pentagrams was that they
> represented the electro-magnetic "blue" of the astral plain (a passive
> skrying effect).
Here's where imo you take a short turn.
The lbrp as a ritual to create a (kinda) magnetic field of 'protection'.
Then using blue for electricity seems very appropriate.
(Changing electric current creates a change in magnetic field)
> (Kraig uses a natural gas stove-top flame for his
> "blue" pentagrams) So what? The LBRP ritual is an active projection,
> not a skrying exercise.
So what, how did you arrive at the conclusion that using the lines in colour
of the 'place' where work is done doesn't work ? (or is merely receptive)
> Green is the color of the Earth Element.
Netzach, venus ?
Citrine/olive/russet/black Malkuth, earth ?
(Well, Saturn works for earth quite wel, but that's a whole different
story.)
Forgive my ignorance, but where does green = earth come from ?
> whereas Blue is the color of the Water Element or magnetic attraction
> (see Bardon).
Blue light is hot. (frequency up)
Red light is cold.
Green is somewhere in between.
> However, I have subsequently encountered a more
> convoluted (and IMO patronizing) explanation of the "blue" Earth
> Pentagrams. It goes this way: "The Pentagram symbol represents
> Geburah (Mars-Red) but that is too dangerous for neophytes to be using
> (this is specious because in the old G.D. even the LBRP was not given
> out south of the Portal Grade)--so these kiddies should be using a
> safer "Blue" Pentagram representing the balancing 'Mercy' aspect of
> Hesed which lies directly opposite mean old Geburah on the Tree of
> Life.
Iirc, this was from that guy who had written a less than flattering
bookreview.
I like the symbolism somewhat, not enough to incorporate it.
Have you experimented with red (etc) pentagrams aswell ?
> Now if this sounds a bit silly, it gets even dumber when we
> consider that the Pentagram in this case does not represent Geburah,
> it represents the Four Elements in man activated by Spirit; i. e. the
> Microcosm. To attribute this greater symbol to Geburah/Mars in this
> case is to miss the point of the ritual entirley--
There is something to be said for a geburah influence.
After all it is a ritual of cutting away.
Pretty geburaic.
> But even if we were projecting Geburah-Mars pentagrams for protection,
> why would we do them in blue?
For the reason you discarded above.
Balance.
> Not color reflex certainly--the reflex of Red is Green!
So in that variant you left out the green, earth attrib.
Using netzach.
(which is fine, of course, just seems a bit inconsistent.)
> Now if anyone wants to rise up in defense of this long-obsolete
> anachronism,
Defense implies attack.
Discussion usually flows more when no such start is chosen.
(as attacker you can lose something, which tends to impede oppenness.)
> I welcome the argument--but perhaps there is somewhere
> out there a better explanation for what some people consider the
> "traditional" Blue Pentagram in the Lesser Banishing (and Invoking)
> Ritual of the Pentagram----if so, please share it with us. *******
Well, dunno bout better.
Me likes different better ;)
Bassos.
William Tucker
every other color....the world appears blanketed in a rose fog...
Light Blue or sky blue is the light from the fifth level and I associate
it with creativity, divine form, or divine law.....law in the sense that
this is undistorted divine will....which courses through all of us but
we have the ability to harmonize with or not.....
this is the level of clarity or truth that must be heard in order to make
a "true" decision which is based upon seeing and hearing what is
going on at an undistorted level...aside from what we wish were
going on....it is only from this level that effective work is done...
Wm
"Blazin' Tommy D." <td...@stny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:01c1c9a9$70cec6a0$d8865f18@federalist...
William Tucker
beings like virus and bacteria in the body.....electric blue as it
were....
indigo is associated with the 3rd eye and most with divine form or pattern,
structure...
the throat has actupuncture points associated with it called "Window of the
Sky"
just bits of light/color related trivia
Wm
David Cantu
Gnome -
I do grasp the point and wish you would not stoop to insult. I did some
experimentation last night and allow that the magician may cast any color
that s/he wishes upon the astral. I also agree that you have come up with a
logical "proof" that another color aside from blue may be most appropriate
within the frame of reference that you have adopted. The true power of the
force of will resides in the magician's mind, this is what actually
impresses the "astral substance" and anything that reinforces and bolsters
the will of the magician is useful.
The true magician will experiment with a variety of styles and techniques to
determine efficacy, the follower reads a book or lets his master tell him.
Thus, if you have a change to make and a rational for that change you try it
and see what happens, you try other possibilities and compare results.
Simple. Do what works best for you, and if you have come up with a logical
argument to convince the intellectual part of the mind then you may have
added to your abilities to impress change upon the world.
See, I have pretty much agreed with you all the way.
Except.
This is the question you posed:
"Origins of the "Blue" LBRP Pentagrams?"
In the post you explained your reasoning, and that is fine, but the question
was where did it come from.
Now, several people and books have told you that it comes from the
experience of color perceived in the astral state, whether in skrying or out
of body. You have already "proven" that Kabbalistic reasoning does Not lead
to blue, so we can assume that this type of reasoning is Not what led to the
historical use of the color blue.
Yet, when a person tells you that they have experienced the color and that
they believe that the origins of historical use may lie in that experience
you put them down and claim that they can't see your reasoning. Well, I Do
see your reasoning, the question is one of relavence. I submit that the
relavence of your reasoning is that it gives reinforcement to the
intellectual part of your mind, and beyond that it is essentially arbitrary.
BUT, that is Not the question that you asked, and you are treating your
question as a test trap. The question you asked, once again, was where did
blue come from. You have proved that it probably didn't come from Kabbalah
so it must have come from elsewhere. The most probable place that the color
blue comes from is the experience of astral color and the explanations Joe
and I and others have spontaneously come up with are as reasonable to the
rational mind as your own, though different in their framework. It's as
simple as that.
We tried to answer your question.
You used your question as a trap to put people down.
That is your choice.
David
Gnome d Plume
wrote:
(snip)
*******This is a good and thoughtful answer--and as far as it goes, I
agree with you. I'm very familiar with the various occult qualities
of "blue"--in fact that is why we paint our temple walls dark blue and
use a blue "zero" light and blue b.g. light in our Samadhi lamps-- But
you are still (IMO) hung up on "seeing" the pentagram rather than
"creating" it. I'm going to post a discussion on Magical Color in
which we will deal with this issue at greater length. But thanks for
one of the more thoughtful answers.*****
Gnome d Plume
Gnome d Plume
>
>"Joe Cosby" <joec...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:3c8da5d0....@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
>> Josef <a...@z.com> hunched over a computer, typing feverishly;
>> thunder crashed, Josef <a...@z.com> laughed madly, then wrote:
>>
>>
>> >Er... chlorophyll....? Middle of the visible spectrum to maximise light
>absorption for conversion into basic sugars of life? There's a reason it's
>not ultra-violet.
>>
>> the point being, it isn't a question of convention or tradition.
>
>Even if it were, by his own G.'.D.'. defintions
>he is wrong on two counts, one for sure: First,
>the color of the water tattwa is silver, not blue;
>blue is air, and secondly, if he were to find it
>suitable to change the earth pentagram from
>blue to yellow-green, why hadn't he changed it
>to yellow? Yellow is Earth in the G.'.D.'. tattwa
>classification, of which, incidently, is the skrying
>complimentary color of blue. Earth/Air, Astral/Etheric
>are so cohesively existent that it's frequecy of vibration
>and color are conjoined. Yellow-green is Solar in the
>King-Scale, hardly Lunar or of Terra, especially
>at her cruedest manifestation.
*****Now this is a worthwhile discussion point. Very good.
The reason we use Green for Earth in this instance, rather than use
either the Tattwa or the straight G.D. color symbolism (neither of
which match BTW) is that Green in this instance, does not become
confused with the other basic color symbols of the Prime Elements:
i.e. Yellow = Air, Red = Fire, Blue = Water and Earth = Green. For
this purpose Green (especially a bright neon green) is obviously the
most appropriate and effective----but yours was a very good argument.
Now we are getting this forum rolling.*****
Gnome d Plume
>
Re Oé…¬tat
"David Cantu" <dc...@houston.rr.com> wrote:
What has been ignored in this entire discussion is *when* the Pentagram
Banishing Ritual was given to GD initiates.
If you follow the GD tradition, it was the only personal ritual in which
the initates received instruction (excluding initiation and equinox
ceremonies/rituals). Therefore, it was a *beginners* ritual, designed,
in part, to help the beginner learn to do ritual.
As several people have posted, blue is an important color to the human
being, being part of the astral plane, etc. I would add that it is also
the color of basic -- perhaps you could call it raw -- magical
energy/prana/odic etc. energy, as demonstrated by Reich and his photos
of Orgone.
You don't train people to play piano by starting them with the Moonlight
Concerto. Rather, you give them simple things to do so they can learn
the piano keyboard, its relationship to the notes on the paper, getting
the fingers to play on the piano what is indicated on the staff, etc. It
is only later that you produce more and more complex pieces and
encourage the pianist to add emotion and passion into the playing.
Likewise, IMO starting with blue pentagrams is a great thing to start
with. The problem, and real difficulty here, is that many people seem to
think that this simple, basic, beginner's ritual is the be-all and
end-all of GD magic. Further, there is the implication that although the
GD was composed of some of the great occult thinkers of the time, that
not one of them came to the obvious conclusion that using different
colors in making the pentagrams could have an effect on the ritual. Do
you really think that Mathers or Yeats or Crowley would say, "If you so
much as try working with a different color we're going to boot you?"
Well, Waite might have <G>, but it shows that the assumption that GD
members were dogma-following morons is pompous and foolish.
Poke claimed that green "is" the earth element. Ridiculous.
In Poke's system, green "corresponds" to the element of earth. In other
systems I've seen earth represented by black, brown, green, or a
combination of four colors. There are probably other color
correspondences, too.
I would respectfully suggest that people learn the ritual using any
color scheme they damn well like. Practice it until the ritual is solid
and working.
Then experiment. Does the ritual improve in energy if you make all of
the pentagrams red? Does it cause a mix of energy if you make each of
the pentagrams a different color, depending upon the angle/element? If
your tests work, use them. If they don't work, discard them.
Then realize that this ritual is a basic, training ritual. Move on to
something else like the Greater Pentagram ritual (at least).
Sorry if I just ran over your dogma.
Re
Gnome d Plume
****There is a wealth of Green earth symbolism in magick and in
symbolism generally--also the regular G.D. Earth symbolism (citrine,
olive, russet and black) would make a pretty sloppy projected
pentagram. Green is the obvious choice in this instance *IF* one
grasps (groks) the concept of projected color--which many here so far
can't quite get accustomed to. What will help in this regard is to
look at the G.D. color scales carefully and then ask yourself: is
anyone dumb enough to think that these pallate colors are what is
"really" in place and resident on "the astral" ? If a person is
intelligent and perceptive, this exercise may very well result in a
vast new dimension of magical possibilities --like a full straightline
chakra system---which is impossible for New Age "Oh but you *KNOW*
that the Heart Chakra is pink!" thinking. Breaking out of this mode
will improve your magick. If you don't think so, go practice with the
Tibetians for awhile and learn how they do it. They have a different
color-and-chakra arrangement for each deity they visualize. *****
Gnome d Plume
Gnome d Plume
wrote:
(Snip)
>
>The choice of blue is based simply on the fact that certain gate
>experiences of perception are going to occur in this color blue.
>Similar to the old zen adage "point your finger at the moon, but the
>fool looks at the finger, not the moon" the choice of blue is a
>description of, metaphorically, the moon. The astral plane, the
>experience of reality, the altered state of consciousness, whatever
>you prefer.
>
******Joe:
Let me point something else out here: the LBRP is not, I repeat *not,*
a gate-opening exercise. It is either a banishing or (as the LIRP)
a guardian invoking rite designed to protect the magician---exactly
the opposite of Gate Opening. You open the gate with either a Hexagram
or (in our case) a Septagram ritual following the LIRP and then, after
closing the gate, sealed with a LBRP. This is very important in
magick. By your logic "blue" "gate-opening" pentagrams would invite
all sorts of entities (many unwanted)into the rite. It would not be a
guardian-setting or a banishing ritual at all---unless you assume that
the general form of the pentagram is a banishing configuration in any
mode or color---and if you will run this idea out just a little way,
you'll find it to be untenable. Remember: we have all kinds and colors
of pentagrams for invoking and banishing all sorts of entities. Try
putting this issue in the broader magical perspective and you'll see
what I'm driving at. ******
Gnome d Plume
Josef
wrote:
>On 12 Mar 2002 03:37:19 -0800, zeb...@zonnet.nl (Bassos) wrote:
This is ironic, since you are breaking out of it but wish to establish
your own-brand dogma as inalienable.
>If you don't think so, go practice with the
>Tibetians for awhile and learn how they do it.
If you follow the Tibetans then your earth pentagram should be yellow.
>They have a different
>color-and-chakra arrangement for each deity they visualize.
Quite. Green is arbitrary, not "the obvious choice". You have just
shot yourself in the foot. Congratulations.
*****
>
>Gnome d Plume
David Cantu
In a note in your book you say:
"The G.D. scales are not what we see on the astral, they are what we project
and impose tin order to acomplish our purpose. You are creating an Earth
Pentagram, not skrying one that is already there -- so, don't make 'blue'
water pentagrams for the Earth Quadrant. Make 'um green."
This sentance implies that the green attribute can be found in the G.D.
color scales. Examining the scales one finds only one choice that is close
to bright neon green and that is in the King scale, entry number 20 - green,
yellowish. This also corresponds to earth, as seen in table XI of 777 which
shows Earth ruled by Venus and the Moon. This also corresponds to the
Hermit, number 9 in the Tarot but the 10th card, and to the path of Will in
the Sepher Yetzirah. This is the path on the Tree connecting Chesed to
Tiphareth, or 4 to 6, again giving 10 (Earth) in combination, or 2 in
difference (Chockmah - Will).
David Cantu
"David Cantu" <dc...@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Y7tj8.94347$dj3.3...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
Sorry, I'm ill today and sent this without proofing. This is the proofed
version.
In a note in your book you say:
"The G.D. scales are not what we see on the astral, they are what we project
and impose tin order to accomplish our purpose. You are creating an Earth
Pentagram, not skrying one that is already there -- so, don't make 'blue'
water pentagrams for the Earth Quadrant. Make 'um green."
This sentence implies that the green attribute can be found in the G.D.
color scales. Examining the scales one finds only one choice that is close
to bright neon green and that is in the King scale, entry number 20 - green,
yellowish. This also corresponds to earth, as seen in table XI of 777 which
shows Earth ruled by Venus and the Moon. This also corresponds to the
Hermit, number 9 in the Tarot but the 10th card, and to the path of Will in
the Sepher Yetzirah. This is the path on the Tree connecting Chesed to
Tiphareth, or 4 to 6, again giving 10 (Earth) in combination, or 2 in
difference (Chokmah - Will).
>
>
Josef
>On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 18:13:40 GMT, Gnome...@aol.com (Gnome d Plume)
>wrote:
>
>>*****This ought to be a fun thread.
>>As some of you may recall I am the iconoclast
>
>among other things
>
> who exposed the
>>hypocraphal "Air Pentacle" in the G.D. Theoricus ritual.
>>(see: *Secrets of the Golden Dawn Cypher Manuscript*. )
>>It derived from a 19th century mistaken interpretation of the
>>Pentagram of the Elements drawing in the Cypher Manuscript and was
>>perpetuated by rote ever since--even by Regardie.
>>Along the same line I booted out the "traditional" Blue pentagrams
>>used in the LBRP and recommended they be projected in bright green.
>
>whatever floats you..
>
>>The reason for this is simple and direct: as magicians we are
>>projecting magical color onto the astral, we are not, in this case,
>>seeking to perceive what is there (skrying). The first explanation I
>>ran across years ago for these "blue" Earth Pentagrams was that they
>>represented the electro-magnetic "blue" of the astral plain (a passive
>>skrying effect). (Kraig uses a natural gas stove-top flame for his
>>"blue" pentagrams)
>
>reminds me. i was once stuffing around with some bronze welding gear.
>i had this 2inch (diameter) about 6inch long hardened metal pipe i was
>trying to weld something to. so after playing around with the alchemy
>a bit. i wondered what would happen if i drilled a hole in the side of
>the tube, put the nozzle of the gas welder just inside and... well the
>effect of placing the nozzle on a 45degree up angle against the sides
>of this hardened metal tube produces a mesmerizing spinning flame out
>the top. you can adjust the colors by adjusting the upward angle of
>the welder nozzle. point it down and you can produce a most curious,
>distinct noise.
>
>then add several grams of potassium nitrate, and you can make your own
>little mesmerizing light show.
Try a strontium salt, lilac is nice but strontium has a fabulous
crimson. They used to use it in the 18th degree, y'know the old
mularky about placing the sword in the liquid in the chalice and then
through the flame. I frequently secrete a little strontium nitrate in
the creases of the palm of my hand in ritual and let a few crystals
fall in the flame when I pass my hand over, the neophytes think it's
magick and are ready to adore me. Just a trick of the trade in the
Grand Mysteries business. Trim the fatheads, I say.
William Tucker
Wm
hy
>
> In my experience light on the Astral has a rose hue added to
> every other color....the world appears blanketed in a rose fog...
>
> Light Blue or sky blue is the light from the fifth level and I associate
> it with creativity, divine form, or divine law.....law in the sense that
> this is undistorted divine will....which courses through all of us but
> we have the ability to harmonize with or not.....
>
> this is the level of clarity or truth that must be heard in order to make
> a "true" decision which is based upon seeing and hearing what is
> going on at an undistorted level...aside from what we wish were
> going on....it is only from this level that effective work is done...
>
> Wm
Could you please tell me more about the window?
William Tucker
a set of accupuncture points at the base of the front of the throat...
I have been working with a lot of blue/turquoise/light blue energy last
couple of days in the region of the front of the throat....I feel compelled
to lift my head and crack my neck a lot the last few days as I am clearing
the obstructions of several people that are connected to me at this level...
communication comes to mind..
Mantaak Chia is one that speaks openly about these points as well as
Chi Kung, Chi Gung books, do a search on that, I don't have my books
with me...names like Jade Pillow, and so on, Robert Scott Martin could
probably point you in the right direction....all I know is that the throat
chakra is associated with hearing, clairaudience, divine will and when
holding that level and activating the third eye with the world of form as
talked about by Plato/Socrates....
Wm
"hy" <hybi...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:3C8E7C92...@shaw.ca...
Robert Scott Martin
William Tucker <wmft...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Mantaak Chia is one that speaks openly about these points as well as
>Chi Kung, Chi Gung books, do a search on that, I don't have my books
>with me...names like Jade Pillow, and so on, Robert Scott Martin could
>probably point you in the right direction.
It's flattering, but I actually don't know much about the Chinese
energetic stuff, except where it helps me find my way around a two-part
reaction vessel.
Unless Josef or someone else wants to volunteer something, it looks like
the WFT library's our best bet.
Cool threadlet though. As for mauve as the well-dressed magician's color,
Derek Jarman (Blazing Tommy's fourth-favorite filmmaker) had this to say:
MAUVE. Mowve, pronounced morv by the late Victorians, became a rage in
fashion after the aniline dye was produced from coal. It was discovered in
1856 by William Perkins, who mixed aniline with chromic acid. It seems to
have had little time to gather much mystery -- where does it appear in
poetry? It is confined to the chemistry lesson.
Its use for cloth dyeing led to the naming of the Mauve Decade. It was
identified with decadence and artificiality. The black of mourning was
touched with violet, not mauve. No Victorian matron dressed in mauve.
[from CHROMA]
Gnome d Plume
(Snip)
******Don:
I knew you couldn't resist this one--and you've even made some good
points.....******
>
>What has been ignored in this entire discussion is *when* the Pentagram
>Banishing Ritual was given to GD initiates.
>
>If you follow the GD tradition, it was the only personal ritual in which
>the initates received instruction (excluding initiation and equinox
>ceremonies/rituals). Therefore, it was a *beginners* ritual, designed,
>in part, to help the beginner learn to do ritual.
****This is quite true--and as one my esteemed colleagues who probably
knows more about the G.D. than both of us has said the same thing. It
was, according to him: "Intended to be developmental." ******
>As several people have posted, blue is an important color to the human
>being, being part of the astral plane, etc. I would add that it is also
>the color of basic -- perhaps you could call it raw -- magical
>energy/prana/odic etc. energy, as demonstrated by Reich and his photos
>of Orgone.
****Also true--and it is what we notice most when we enter the astral.
The electric-blue aura around the crystal is the time-honored
indicator that you are moving into the astral (not to be confused with
the OOBE's of "etheric projection" ). ******
>
>You don't train people to play piano by starting them with the Moonlight
>Concerto. Rather, you give them simple things to do so they can learn
>the piano keyboard, its relationship to the notes on the paper, getting
>the fingers to play on the piano what is indicated on the staff, etc. It
>is only later that you produce more and more complex pieces and
>encourage the pianist to add emotion and passion into the playing.
****That is also true--but in this case I believe the wrong sequence
was used. The astral blue is an "effect" --and a passive effect at
that--not a cause. To have people using an after-effect as a causative
agent is (again IMO) bad training. But you and I both know that the
theory of causative color projection was not taught in the G.D. There
were (and still are) many who think that the colors one encounters on
the various planes really are the G.D. color scales.******
>
>Likewise, IMO starting with blue pentagrams is a great thing to start
>with. The problem, and real difficulty here, is that many people seem to
>think that this simple, basic, beginner's ritual is the be-all and
>end-all of GD magic. Further, there is the implication that although the
>GD was composed of some of the great occult thinkers of the time, that
>not one of them came to the obvious conclusion that using different
>colors in making the pentagrams could have an effect on the ritual. Do
>you really think that Mathers or Yeats or Crowley would say, "If you so
>much as try working with a different color we're going to boot you?"
>Well, Waite might have <G>, but it shows that the assumption that GD
>members were dogma-following morons is pompous and foolish.
>
>Poke claimed that green "is" the earth element. Ridiculous.
*******Oh come now---"Ridiculous" ? Hardly, as I will gently and yet
firmly establish......******
>
>In Poke's system, green "corresponds" to the element of earth. In other
>systems I've seen earth represented by black, brown, green, or a
>combination of four colors. There are probably other color
>correspondences, too.
******Yes---However, if you make your Earth Pentagrams in black that
won't show up very well and be rather "evil" even if they do; and if
you make them in russet that is too much like red and too dark
anyway--same for olive--and citrine is already taken. As for
"brown"--well brown pentagrams would get you land you on the shrink's
couch talking about potty training....Blue is definitely water and
blazing White works for spirit pentagrams (although one can use red
and blue for these as well) but for Earth the logical, elegant and
perfect choice is "GREEN" (remember too that the center of the Goetic
Triangle is Green, where the final element of the tetragrammaton
manifests0. *****
>
>I would respectfully suggest that people learn the ritual using any
>color scheme they damn well like. Practice it until the ritual is solid
>and working.
******I'm for that too---then they'll see through such hand-me-down,
don't ask questions, do it because we tell you to methods that result
in "Blue" Earth Pentagrams.******
>
>Then experiment. Does the ritual improve in energy if you make all of
>the pentagrams red? Does it cause a mix of energy if you make each of
>the pentagrams a different color, depending upon the angle/element? If
>your tests work, use them. If they don't work, discard them.
>
>Then realize that this ritual is a basic, training ritual. Move on to
>something else like the Greater Pentagram ritual (at least).
>
>Sorry if I just ran over your dogma.
*****My karma ran over your dogma long ago.*****
Gnome
Gnome d Plume
wrote:
>
>and impose in order to acomplish our purpose. You are creating an Earth
>Pentagram, not skrying one that is already there -- so, don't make 'blue'
>water pentagrams for the Earth Quadrant. Make 'um green."
>This sentance implies that the green attribute can be found in the G.D.
>color scales. Examining the scales one finds only one choice that is close
>to bright neon green and that is in the King scale, entry number 20 - green,
>yellowish. This also corresponds to earth, as seen in table XI of 777 which
>shows Earth ruled by Venus and the Moon. This also corresponds to the
>Hermit, number 9 in the Tarot but the 10th card, and to the path of Will in
>the Sepher Yetzirah. This is the path on the Tree connecting Chesed to
>Tiphareth, or 4 to 6, again giving 10 (Earth) in combination, or 2 in
>difference (Chockmah - Will).
******You are technically correct. The G.D. did not use Green for
earth but rather a ritually unsatisfactory combination of colors. As
you are totally, completely and thoroughly aware: Green is the logical
and elegant choice if one is creating dynamic, glowing pentagrams on
the astral in the four primary colors of the elements. David, for me
to suggest that don't realize this puts me in the position of
insulting your intelligence, which I am reluctant to do. Let me
re-post part of my response to Don on the same issue:
******Yes---However, if you make your Earth Pentagrams in black that
won't show up very well and be rather "evil" even if they do; and if
you make them in russet that is too much like red and too dark
anyway--same for olive--and citrine is already taken (Air). As for
"brown"--well brown pentagrams would land you on the shrink's
couch talking about potty training....Blue is definitely water and
blazing White works for spirit pentagrams (although one can use red
and blue for these as well) but for Earth the logical, elegant and
perfect choice is "GREEN" (remember too that the center of the Goetic
Triangle is Green, where the final element of the tetragrammaton
manifests. *****
Gnome d Plume
Dryad
cut --cut
>Try a strontium salt, lilac is nice but strontium has a fabulous
>crimson. They used to use it in the 18th degree, y'know the old
>mularky about placing the sword in the liquid in the chalice and then
>through the flame. I frequently secrete a little strontium nitrate in
>the creases of the palm of my hand in ritual and let a few crystals
>fall in the flame when I pass my hand over, the neophytes think it's
>magick and are ready to adore me. Just a trick of the trade in the
>Grand Mysteries business. Trim the fatheads, I say.
>
Josef is a wizard,
A mighty wiz is he!
In magick he's way up there--
A high author-it-tee!
He isn't much on scrying,
Evocation ain't his thing,
For him the G.D. system
Is a bell that doesn't ring,
But he's quite a showman
With a trick up both his sleeves
A puff of smoke is Magick---
Or so he now believes.
Dryad
Satyr
<Gnome...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 07:30:45 GMT, joec...@mindspring.com (Joe Cosby)
> wrote:
>
> (Snip)
>>
>>The choice of blue is based simply on the fact that certain gate
>>experiences of perception are going to occur in this color blue. Similar
>>to the old zen adage "point your finger at the moon, but the fool looks
>>at the finger, not the moon" the choice of blue is a description of,
>>metaphorically, the moon. The astral plane, the experience of reality,
>>the altered state of consciousness, whatever you prefer.
>>
> ******Joe:
>
> Let me point something else out here: the LBRP is not, I repeat *not,* a
> gate-opening exercise. It is either a banishing or (as the LIRP) a
> guardian invoking rite designed to protect the magician---exactly the
> opposite of Gate Opening. You open the gate with either a Hexagram or
> (in our case) a Septagram ritual following the LIRP and then, after
> closing the gate, sealed with a LBRP. This is very important in magick.
In your system, perhaps. But that is not so for all systems. For me, the
LRP evokes the four guardians in the form of the four archangels. Whether
it is used to invoke or banish doesn't change that.
It may not be opening the Gates per se, but it is certainly implicitly
acknowledging their existence. Once you introduce Hexagrams, you're
starting to deal with the planetary forces that are set over the elements,
and no longer the elements themselves. But even then, you are not likely
to suddenly swap air with water, or some such. The elemental attributions
of the Four Gates is going to be substantially the same as that of the
LRP, unless there's some special circumstance dictating otherwise.
In essence, the Pentegram rituals are scaled-down versions of the Ritual
of the Consecration of the Vault of the Adepts--or vice versa, depending
on how you wish to look at it. That is most assuredly a Gate Opening
ceremony, and no hexagrams are used at all. Working within the Golden
Dawn system and its derivatives, I would say the LRP *is* a Gate ritual as
well.
You should know this, having published the Cypher MS.
By the way, I used fiery goldish-red for years, and got along just fine.
It was much later that I started using the obligatory blue. The hotter
tone was what I saw, and I went with it. My choice goes much better with
your 'creation of the pentegrams' argument, creation being sometimes
associated with fire.
> By your logic "blue" "gate-opening" pentagrams would invite all sorts of
> entities (many unwanted)into the rite. It would not be a
> guardian-setting or a banishing ritual at all---unless you assume that
> the general form of the pentagram is a banishing configuration in any
> mode or color---and if you will run this idea out just a little way,
> you'll find it to be untenable. Remember: we have all kinds and colors
> of pentagrams for invoking and banishing all sorts of entities. Try
> putting this issue in the broader magical perspective and you'll see
> what I'm driving at. ******
>
> Gnome d Plume
--
Satyr
Listen to the fools reproach! It is a kingly title!
-Wm. Blake
Mephistopheles
> Also a good point! Gee -- two coherent posts in a row! Is this the old
>alt.magick i have known and loved? Make it three and we can call it a
>thread!
Thanks! Good to see you! How are you?
Regards,
--M
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum--Lucretius
Gnome d Plume
<saty...@nopressedpighotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <3c9143f3...@trialnews.peoplepc.com>, "Gnome d Plume"
><Gnome...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 07:30:45 GMT, joec...@mindspring.com (Joe Cosby)
>> wrote:
>>
>> (Snip)
>>>
>>>The choice of blue is based simply on the fact that certain gate
>>>experiences of perception are going to occur in this color blue. Similar
>>>to the old zen adage "point your finger at the moon, but the fool looks
>>>at the finger, not the moon" the choice of blue is a description of,
>>>metaphorically, the moon. The astral plane, the experience of reality,
>>>the altered state of consciousness, whatever you prefer.
>>>
>> ******Joe:
>>
>> Let me point something else out here: the LBRP is not, I repeat *not,* a
>> gate-opening exercise. It is either a banishing or (as the LIRP) a
>> guardian invoking rite designed to protect the magician---exactly the
>> opposite of Gate Opening. You open the gate with either a Hexagram or
>> (in our case) a Septagram ritual following the LIRP and then, after
>> closing the gate, sealed with a LBRP. This is very important in magick.
>
>In your system, perhaps. But that is not so for all systems. For me, the
>LRP evokes the four guardians in the form of the four archangels. Whether
>it is used to invoke or banish doesn't change that.
*****That is exactly what we use it for. It casts the Magick
Circle---remember our go-round about breaking the Circle when we were
discussing David's review of the Vassago video (that's going very well
BTW). But remember, casting a circle is not opening a gate--and the
old G.D. never used it in ceremonies in any other mode but
banishing.*******
>
>It may not be opening the Gates per se, but it is certainly implicitly
>acknowledging their existence. ******So?***** Once you introduce Hexagrams, you're
>starting to deal with the planetary forces that are set over the elements,
>and no longer the elements themselves.
****Hexagrams perhaps, but our Septagram ritual is both planetary,
zodical and elemental because it is keyed in with our chakra system.
Actually the G.D. used Hexagrams for opening more than just planetary
operations. Check it out. ******
> But even then, you are not likely
>to suddenly swap air with water, or some such. The elemental attributions
>of the Four Gates is going to be substantially the same as that of the
>LRP, unless there's some special circumstance dictating otherwise.
>
>In essence, the Pentegram rituals are scaled-down versions of the Ritual
>of the Consecration of the Vault of the Adepts--or vice versa, depending
>on how you wish to look at it. That is most assuredly a Gate Opening
>ceremony, and no hexagrams are used at all. Working within the Golden
>Dawn system and its derivatives, I would say the LRP *is* a Gate ritual as
>well.
*******I do not agree--but I do think that the Pentagram Ritual in its
various forms, is one of the most important rituals in Western Magick.
****
>
>You should know this, having published the Cypher MS.
******Yes, and that is one reason I don't agree. In Magick you have to
be specific. You open the Gate to the Path and-or-Sphere you are
working in---in fact we state this at the end of our Septagram Rite:
"In the Name of the Archangel Gabriel, I declare that the Gateway to
the 32nd Path and to the Sphere of Yesod is hereby opened and
unsealed!" You don't just light up the astral and take what comes.
That is Ouija board or spiritualism stuff.*****
>
>By the way, I used fiery goldish-red for years, and got along just fine.
>It was much later that I started using the obligatory blue. The hotter
>tone was what I saw, and I went with it. My choice goes much better with
>your 'creation of the pentegrams' argument, creation being sometimes
>associated with fire.
*******This is what you'll find in all editions of the G.D. This
"blue" Earth pentagram thing has an extra-cirricular origin. It
certainly isn't in the Cypher Ms. *******
AgnosticGnostic
>I'm really surprised that no one here so far even seems to
>even understand what I'm talking about,
I'm not, you tend to converse in depth about things which only you seem to know
about and which no one else of course knows about.
>The LBRP is so basic to Western
>Magick that I have difficulty understanding how someone can be a
>magician without having a practical knowledge of it.
I'm sorry, the Golden Dawn didn't invent "Western Magick" though they did make
it popular. Just because your self-important ideas don't carry well to others
doesn't mean they aren't magicians. I mean really Gnome, what about the golden
dawn was so great? And why won't people just let it die and move on, its not
like its going to suddenly jump up and start moving around.
Don't take it personally though, I still wonder why people have to choke
themselves and those around them with ridiculous notions of what magic(k) is
and isn't.
Josef
There was an old magus called Gnome
Most of what he spouted was foam
But when he took off his robe
And prodded his frontal lobe
He was quite able to write a little pome.
Josef
>On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 20:46:54 +0000, Josef <a...@z.com> wrote:
>
>>Try a strontium salt, lilac is nice but strontium has a fabulous
>>crimson. They used to use it in the 18th degree, y'know the old
>>mularky about placing the sword in the liquid in the chalice and then
>>through the flame. I frequently secrete a little strontium nitrate in
>>the creases of the palm of my hand in ritual and let a few crystals
>>fall in the flame when I pass my hand over, the neophytes think it's
>>magick and are ready to adore me. Just a trick of the trade in the
>>Grand Mysteries business. Trim the fatheads, I say.
>
>where can you obtain this strontium salt?
You'd probably need to know a chemist or find a lax laboratory
supplier, the latter not being too likely these days. I can't think of
any commerically available products that have strontium salts in them.
Copper salts too for a beautiful green flame, such as copper sulphate,
you can get copper salts I seem to recall in the wine industry, but
copper sulphate is also in any kid's chemistry set.
What's happening when you place these salts in the flame is that the
heat provides enough energy for the electrons to go up to a higher
orbital in the molecule, it is when then come back down again that the
energy is emitted as light. The distance between molecular orbititals
determines the size of the quantum of energy, and thus the wavelength
of the light, thus producing its distinctive spectrum. This is how
they know what metal salts are present on other planets. I guess this
is more information that you required. It's called a "flame test".
Ordinary salt, sodium chloride, emits an orange flame test as most
people know, but strontium is in my opinion the most beautiful,
followed by copper. Use of this principle in ritual magick is
something little spoken of, but I always try to incorporate such
ideas, since you are dealing with change at the molecular level
directly translated into colour.
Joe Cosby
feverishly;
thunder crashed, Gnome...@aol.com (Gnome d Plume) laughed madly,
then wrote:
***
You know, I still stand by my opinion, but using the phrase 'full of
shit' was unnecassarily abrasive.
I apologize
I was in a foul mood last night.
--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.home.mindspring.com
Eloi eloi lama sabacthani
Sig by Kookie Jar 5.98d http://go.to/generalfrenetics/
Joe Cosby
feverishly;
thunder crashed, Gnome...@aol.com (Gnome d Plume) laughed madly,
then wrote:
but it also occupies the place of being the first exercise given to
beginners, to develop their awareness in general.
--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.home.mindspring.com
What if we'd just QUIT when Albert Einstein bombed Pearl Harbor? We'd all be
eating Matzoh ball soup and learning physics in school, that's what!
Joe Cosby
typing feverishly;
thunder crashed, "Satyr" <saty...@nopressedpighotmail.com> laughed
madly, then wrote:
This has been part of my experience, I do use the pentagrams as gates.
I find it works ... the tension between the pentagram which is being
used as a 'barrier' in the sense of banishing, and the opposite of
using the pentagram to cross out of or allow into the circle, have
always seemed natural to me.
That's just a personal idiosyncracy though
--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.home.mindspring.com
In the room the women come and go
Singing of great Pinocchio
Casey Sheldon
>
> ****You are right about this to some degree. You like "blue"
> pentagrams because this reminds you of the electric blue aura upon
> entering the astral (yes, I go there every Thursday night) but I am
> pointing out that the LBRP is an active projection, not a passive
> skrying. This is what you don't seem able to grasp. It has very little
> to do with seeing what's already there, and as for "old men"
> developing it, well I did develop the "green" Earth pentagram after
> age forty, so I suppose you are right there also.*****
>
> Gnome
Not that it makes any difference, but Cordovero's color system places
Malkuth as blue and Chesed as white and silver, so in that case blue could
be correct as opposed to the idea of counterbalancing Gevurah's colors of
red and gold. Cordovero was born in 1522 and finished Pardes in 1548, so he
was only 26 when he wrote it... not quite an old man, eh? <scrambling to
start my magnum opus before I get old>
--
Casey Sheldon
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A man's ethical behavior should be based
effectually on sympathy, education, and social
ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would
indeed be in a poor way if he had to be
restrained by fear of punishment and hope of
reward after death."
- Albert Einstein
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blazin' Tommy D.
Robert Scott Martin <gl...@panix.com> wrote in article
<a6m0qa$2rf$1...@panix1.panix.com>...
> In article <tgvj8.15018$Vx1.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> William Tucker <wmft...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
> Unless Josef or someone else wants to volunteer something, it looks like
> the WFT library's our best bet.
BTD: I'm familiar with Chi meridian points but unfamiliar with any such
names. The only meridian that runs vertically as to run through the center
of the throat corresponds to what is referred to as the "conception
vessel": pelvis to naval appertains to genito kidneys; navel to
breastbone: digestive system and sternum to mouth: breathing and
circulation. The meridian commences from the crotch and runs to the center
of the lower lip.
>
> Cool threadlet though. As for mauve as the well-dressed magician's color,
> Derek Jarman (Blazing Tommy's fourth-favorite filmmaker) had this to say:
>
> MAUVE. Mowve, pronounced morv by the late Victorians, became a rage in
> fashion after the aniline dye was produced from coal. It was discovered
in
> 1856 by William Perkins, who mixed aniline with chromic acid. It seems to
> have had little time to gather much mystery -- where does it appear in
> poetry? It is confined to the chemistry lesson.
>
> Its use for cloth dyeing led to the naming of the Mauve Decade. It was
> identified with decadence and artificiality. The black of mourning was
> touched with violet, not mauve. No Victorian matron dressed in mauve.
>
> [from CHROMA]
BTD: Jarmen is the contemporary guy that looks like Andy Warhol with his
silver wig moussed back? A cool guy out there making movies - a warrior
endeavor itself!
I have no favorite:)
I used to use "mauve" in a Chuck Berry song I was supposed to record. Got a
contract for royalty payments with BMI and everything - "Let's Boogie":
"Squeeze in that long mauve dress you've shown me/ ummmmm/ that hemline's/
out of sight"
>
Blazin' Tommy D.
Blazin' Tommy D. <td...@stny.rr.com> wrote in article
<01c1ca53$862d8130$d8865f18@federalist>...
Josef
>On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 03:17:20 +0000, Josef <a...@z.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 01:00:25 GMT, Grrr <grr...@AMpost.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 20:46:54 +0000, Josef <a...@z.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Try a strontium salt, lilac is nice but strontium has a fabulous
>>>>crimson. They used to use it in the 18th degree, y'know the old
>>>>mularky about placing the sword in the liquid in the chalice and then
>>>>through the flame. I frequently secrete a little strontium nitrate in
>>>>the creases of the palm of my hand in ritual and let a few crystals
>>>>fall in the flame when I pass my hand over, the neophytes think it's
>>>>magick and are ready to adore me. Just a trick of the trade in the
>>>>Grand Mysteries business. Trim the fatheads, I say.
>>>
>>>where can you obtain this strontium salt?
>>
>>You'd probably need to know a chemist or find a lax laboratory
>>supplier, the latter not being too likely these days. I can't think of
>>any commerically available products that have strontium salts in them.
>>
>>Copper salts too for a beautiful green flame, such as copper sulphate,
>>you can get copper salts I seem to recall in the wine industry, but
>>copper sulphate is also in any kid's chemistry set.
>
>and any good electronics supplies shop.
>
>it's not a difficult substance to get.
>
>though you've piqued me about that strontium.
>
>>What's happening when you place these salts in the flame is that the
>>heat provides enough energy for the electrons to go up to a higher
>>orbital in the molecule, it is when then come back down again that the
>>energy is emitted as light. The distance between molecular orbititals
>>determines the size of the quantum of energy, and thus the wavelength
>>of the light, thus producing its distinctive spectrum. This is how
>>they know what metal salts are present on other planets. I guess this
>>is more information that you required.
>
>nah. that's cool.
>good to see some perspective.
>i'm not totally rocket-scientificish about how spectroscopy works and
>the nature of plasma physics.
>
>incidentally, i'm s l o w l y going through paul hill's
>'unconventional flying objects at the moment. which touches on all
>that very same phenomenon you're describing.
>
> It's called a "flame test".
>>Ordinary salt, sodium chloride, emits an orange flame test as most
>>people know, but strontium is in my opinion the most beautiful,
>>followed by copper. Use of this principle in ritual magick is
>>something little spoken of, but I always try to incorporate such
>>ideas, since you are dealing with change at the molecular level
>>directly translated into colour.
>
>know of any info. describing how to obtain it from some other form?
Not sure I know what you mean. But phosphorescent substances are also
of great interest, although I do know of one person, a chemistry
student, who stole bottles and bottles of the stuff and lined the
walls of his flat so he lived in a weird eerie glow. But he died, I
suspect because if it.
Joe Cosby
thunder crashed, "Adia" <Zr...@Zruel.com> laughed madly, then wrote:
>
>" Change not the style of a letter."
>
>A. Crowley
>circa 1904
I think that's exactly the point ...
A lot of magic, religion, and mysticism there is a lot of meaning
which is just not readily apparent when you're looking at it logically
and in normal consciousness. It tends to take on a heavily-layered,
'implicate order' of meanings. This is all working at the chaotic
level of our subconscious minds, so that shouldn't really come as much
of a surprise ...
I'm not really a traditionalist by nature, "Bob" knows, and I take
great pleasure in bending old practices to my own ends, but I think
changing traditional practices based on a historical, analytical
'improvement' of them can often miss important levels that are just
not going to be visible to a left-brain, logical analysis
Somewhere around the same spot Crowley/Horus says "reason be damned
for a dog!" or something like that ... I certainly don't encourage
blind faith or belief but at the same time, sometimes our reasons can
make perfect sense and be perfectly wrong ...
I think western occultism especially has tried to fit old traditions
into a logical framework which agreed with contemporary religious or
scientific beliefs, beliefs which are now obsolete anyway, and has
retained these alterations to the detriment of the art.
For me personally, going back to the 'root', shamanism, primitive
practice, drumming, trance, was very useful and enlightening in seeing
things that had been lost ... lost because they had no apparent
purpose and so were rejected as we (in whatever century) 'realized'
that we had now found the real genuine ultra final really -real- truth
about everything and had to get rid of the stuff in magic which
obviously didn't fit that ... and of course there have many iterations
of that as the centuries have worn on and we have realized many
-really- real ultimate truths we KNOW we've got it right THIS time by
golly ... and have thrown out a lot of babies with a lot of bathwater.
Sometimes reason be damned for a dog indeed.
--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.home.mindspring.com
When a cat is dropped, it always lands on its feet, and when toast is dropped,
it always lands with the buttered side down. I propose to strap buttered toast
to the back of a cat; the 2 will hover, inches above the ground. With a giant
buttered-cat array, a high-speed monorail could easily link New York with
Chicago.
-- John Frazee
Quintal (xavier)
what about deciding without a clear vision of what the paths ahead
are, isn't it what we do all the time, otherwize it would be no
challenge? Vision comes afterwards, after the decision from intuition
has been the right one. Mind is built through these decisions, and
mind is the vision.
Satyr
<joec...@mindspring.com> wrote:
I'm not so sure. Perhaps we share this idiosyncracy? All that you've
said so far makes sense, based on my personal experience. I think that's
the crux of the issue, really. The revisionist view that began this
thread is the result of armchair theorizing, as its author admits, and not
practical experience or application. Most ironic.
Satyr
<joec...@mindspring.com> wrote:
Precisely. Our hoary-headed Sage of Silverado has so far based his
argument solely on the teachings he himself has authored, as is to be
expected, and neglected to acknowledge its original purpose, as stated by
the Golden Dawn, "Its use is permitted to the Outer that Neophytes may
have protection against opposing forces, and also that they may form some
idea of how to attract and to come into communication with spiritual and
invisible things." This seems in complete agreement with your ideas.
How may it enable communication with things otherworldly if it does not
in fact function as a gate?
Blazin' Tommy D.
Gnome d Plume <Gnome...@aol.com> wrote in article
<3c8d9f27...@trialnews.peoplepc.com>...
> On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 21:01:22 -0700, "Asiya"
> <asiya_...@MEATBALLSmindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >"Gnome d Plume" <Gnome...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >news:3c8cf1b0...@trialnews.peoplepc.com...
> >>
> >> However, I have subsequently encountered a more
> >> convoluted (and IMO patronizing) explanation of the "blue" Earth
> >> Pentagrams. It goes this way: "The Pentagram symbol represents
> >> Geburah (Mars-Red) but that is too dangerous for neophytes to be
> >using
> >> (this is specious because in the old G.D. even the LBRP was not
> >given
> >> out south of the Portal Grade)--so these kiddies should be using a
> >> safer "Blue" Pentagram representing the balancing 'Mercy' aspect of
> >> Hesed which lies directly opposite mean old Geburah on the Tree of
> >> Life.
> >
> >Just curious, where is this explanation from?
>
> *******You know, that's one of the things I'm trying to find out. It
> isn't in the original G.D. teachings but even Regardie ended up doing
> it (on his audio tape) and Kraig repeats it without explanation. So,
> where does it come from? You tell me.******
>
> Gnome
> >Asiya
> >**********
> >www.geocities.com/shadowsofasiya/
> >Eat the meatballs to email me.
> >
>
>
Satyr
<joec...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> "Adia" <Zr...@Zruel.com> hunched over a computer, typing feverishly;
> thunder crashed, "Adia" <Zr...@Zruel.com> laughed madly, then wrote:
>
>
>
>>" Change not the style of a letter."
>>
>>A. Crowley
>>circa 1904
>
> I think that's exactly the point ...
>
> A lot of magic, religion, and mysticism there is a lot of meaning which
> is just not readily apparent when you're looking at it logically and in
> normal consciousness. It tends to take on a heavily-layered, 'implicate
> order' of meanings. This is all working at the chaotic level of our
> subconscious minds, so that shouldn't really come as much of a surprise
> ...
>
> I'm not really a traditionalist by nature, "Bob" knows, and I take great
> pleasure in bending old practices to my own ends, but I think changing
> traditional practices based on a historical, analytical 'improvement' of
> them can often miss important levels that are just not going to be
> visible to a left-brain, logical analysis
Exactly. But all that left-brain analysis serves the purpose of drawing
attention to its creator, as is the intent. It makes no difference to
him. It's all in his head anyway, however big that head might be. None
of it is 'real', and may be perverted in whatever manner he pleases and
to whatever end.
> Somewhere around the same spot Crowley/Horus says "reason be damned for
> a dog!" or something like that ... I certainly don't encourage blind
> faith or belief but at the same time, sometimes our reasons can make
> perfect sense and be perfectly wrong ...
>
> I think western occultism especially has tried to fit old traditions
> into a logical framework which agreed with contemporary religious or
> scientific beliefs, beliefs which are now obsolete anyway, and has
> retained these alterations to the detriment of the art.
It's revisionist thinking, and it's accompanied with the usual stinch.
> For me personally, going back to the 'root', shamanism, primitive
> practice, drumming, trance, was very useful and enlightening in seeing
> things that had been lost ... lost because they had no apparent purpose
> and so were rejected as we (in whatever century) 'realized' that we had
> now found the real genuine ultra final really -real- truth about
> everything and had to get rid of the stuff in magic which obviously
> didn't fit that ... and of course there have many iterations of that as
> the centuries have worn on and we have realized many -really- real
> ultimate truths we KNOW we've got it right THIS time by golly ... and
> have thrown out a lot of babies with a lot of bathwater.
Well said.
> Sometimes reason be damned for a dog indeed.
>
> --
> Joe Cosby
> http://joecosby.home.mindspring.com
>
> When a cat is dropped, it always lands on its feet, and when toast is
> dropped, it always lands with the buttered side down. I propose to strap
> buttered toast to the back of a cat; the 2 will hover, inches above the
> ground. With a giant buttered-cat array, a high-speed monorail could
> easily link New York with Chicago.
> -- John Frazee
>
>
> Sig by Kookie Jar 5.98d http://go.to/generalfrenetics/
Satyr
<Gnome...@aol.com> wrote:
I have and do use it for all sorts of things, in both banishing and
invoking forms. With a less dogmatic approach I'm sure you and yours
would discover a similar utility for yourselves.
>>It may not be opening the Gates per se, but it is certainly implicitly
>>acknowledging their existence. ******So?***** Once you introduce
>>Hexagrams, you're starting to deal with the planetary forces that are
>>set over the elements, and no longer the elements themselves.
>
> ****Hexagrams perhaps, but our Septagram ritual is both planetary,
> zodical and elemental because it is keyed in with our chakra system.
> Actually the G.D. used Hexagrams for opening more than just planetary
> operations. Check it out. ******
Which only underscores my point. It may be fine and dandy in your
personal system, but has limited utility for those working within
accepted traditions, and cannot be demonstrated otherwise without
repeated rereference to your personal system.
The Golden Dawn system, complete with LRP's, is designed with a goal in
mind quite different than your system. It is not necessarily better for
that, but it fulfills its purpose sufficiently and has withstood the test of
time.
>> But even then, you are not likely
>>to suddenly swap air with water, or some such. The elemental
>>attributions of the Four Gates is going to be substantially the same as
>>that of the LRP, unless there's some special circumstance dictating
>>otherwise.
>>
>>In essence, the Pentegram rituals are scaled-down versions of the Ritual
>>of the Consecration of the Vault of the Adepts--or vice versa, depending
>>on how you wish to look at it. That is most assuredly a Gate Opening
>>ceremony, and no hexagrams are used at all. Working within the Golden
>>Dawn system and its derivatives, I would say the LRP *is* a Gate ritual
>>as well.
>
> *******I do not agree--but I do think that the Pentagram Ritual in its
> various forms, is one of the most important rituals in Western Magick.
> ****
With what don't you agree, and on what do you base your objection? If
it's more internal reference to your personal system, it's hardly
supportive of your argument. I was looking at sources and how they have
been applied, a thing I thought you capable of doing for yourself.
>>
>>You should know this, having published the Cypher MS.
>
> ******Yes, and that is one reason I don't agree. In Magick you have to
> be specific. You open the Gate to the Path and-or-Sphere you are working
> in---in fact we state this at the end of our Septagram Rite: "In the
> Name of the Archangel Gabriel, I declare that the Gateway to the 32nd
> Path and to the Sphere of Yesod is hereby opened and unsealed!" You
> don't just light up the astral and take what comes. That is Ouija board
> or spiritualism stuff.*****
Again, you offer your own personal, idiosyncratic definitions of words
like 'gate' to justify your own personal system. When I and Joe and
others speak of a 'gate', we probably mean something else, and likely as
not our conception is at least as valid as yours.
And I will thank you to keep your snide remarks and thinly veiled
patronization to yourself. In the eyes of some you are little above a
Ouija board yourself. Conjurers who work in glass houses shouldn't throw
stones.
>>
>>By the way, I used fiery goldish-red for years, and got along just fine.
>>It was much later that I started using the obligatory blue. The hotter
>>tone was what I saw, and I went with it. My choice goes much better
>>with your 'creation of the pentegrams' argument, creation being
>>sometimes associated with fire.
>
> *******This is what you'll find in all editions of the G.D. This "blue"
> Earth pentagram thing has an extra-cirricular origin. It certainly isn't
> in the Cypher Ms. *******
Nope. Just hauled-out my copy of The Golden Dawn, and saw no explicit
instruction as to color. This was a simple thing to do, supported your
argument, and I'm surprised (sort of), that you hadn't done so yourself
before raising this 'question'.
>>
>>> By your logic "blue" "gate-opening" pentagrams would invite all sorts
>>> of entities (many unwanted)into the rite. It would not be a
>>> guardian-setting or a banishing ritual at all---unless you assume that
>>> the general form of the pentagram is a banishing configuration in any
>>> mode or color---and if you will run this idea out just a little way,
>>> you'll find it to be untenable. Remember: we have all kinds and colors
>>> of pentagrams for invoking and banishing all sorts of entities. Try
>>> putting this issue in the broader magical perspective and you'll see
>>> what I'm driving at. ******
>>>
>>> Gnome d Plume
John
>
> "why is the grass green?"
It's all in the chloroplasts silly...
> It's a silly question but sillier yet is HAVING AN ANSWER.
Determining the reason behind why plants reflect only green light was an
important step to understanding life on this planet. I apologize for
stepping all over your analogy, but asking "why the grass is green" leads to
understanding what light is and how plants make food out of light, water,
carbon and nitrogen. Which leads to making better fertilizers and thinking
about making photovoltaic cells and lazers and filters and improving your
chemistry and biology. What answering that question did for science can
also work for magick. Colors simply relate underlying elements of reality
that our minds must abstract to fit within our limited apparatus for
physical perception.
From an artistic perspective you are absolutely right, it doesn't matter as
much as it feels. But there is much more than just an artistic side to
magick.
There is not such thing as a bad question as long as you understand all the
answers may indeed be silly, ridiculous or unwanted.
I don't know anybody who practices magick and is conginentaly blind. But it
might be worth the while to find such a person and get their opinion on the
subject.
William Tucker
"Quintal (xavier)" <xavi...@club-internet.fr> wrote in message
news:4udu8uslbdlass36l...@4ax.com...
mind is a tool in the same sense that a program for a computer is the
tool....every day mind or ordinary mind is like this computer program,
we evaluate based upon what we "know" from an abstraction and
from some new data points...
there is a difference between "new mind" and learned behaviour..
the admonishment to "see as if through the eyes of a young child" speaks
to this....when you are writing the code for computer there is a dexterity
of attention that is different than what "every day" mind is...the confusion
inherent in doing anything for the first time is not confusion....if one
learns
to sit comfortably with this "confusion" one will achieve fluidity of mind
unlike anything that most realize is possible....this confusion can lead
to an upwelling of attention and an opening of new areas of perception...
In Buddhism there is a state of quiescent mind, in meditation if you will...
When one is at a place where one is not putting the spin of will on
what they wish things were then at that point they can see what things
are and make a decision based upon paremeters unskewed by personal
history.......
All decisions are based upon practice.
What you are calling clear vision may be the same thing I am talking about,
I am adding more information relating a particular point, color, another
pointer
to a description of this state Buddhic mediitation, and if you know how to
do
chakra meditation how to work with it more precisely....that is this....
open all of your chakras and ground....
open and clear your heart chakra....
open and clear your root chakra
open and clear your throat chakra
open and clear your crown chakra
open and clear your third eye chakra
hold your awareness at your heart chakra,
link and hold your awareness with your third eye chakra
link and hold your awareness with your throat chakra...
synchronize them, how do you feel about what you are
trying to decide, understand, from this point of balanced
equanamity...