oops, I seem to have crossed the Abyss
Mike Estell
I'm curious to know what experience people have of momentarily
"accidentally" crossing the Abyss - that is, of suddenly experiencing an
onset of mystic awareness, or whatever you may wish to call it. We may
follow a course of study and practice designed to bring on this sort of
experience, but sometimes it just sort of happens without any effort (as
far as I know it has not ever happened to me - so far, alas, "I'm an
earthbound boy," as Julian Cope said).
Crowley in his Confessions says that Allan Bennett accidentally fell into
the trance known as Shivadarshana when he was a boy, and spent the rest of
his life trying to get back into it. Bennett's interest in magick and
mysticism BEGAN with crossing the Abyss; an auspicious start, I guess.
Any similar stories, direct or anecdotal?
Thanks for your time.
yours,
Mike
Nechesh
<<Subject: oops, I seem to have crossed the Abyss
From: Mike Estell <mes...@pantheon.yale.edu>
Date: Fri, Apr 24, 1998 4:29 PM
Message-id: <Pine.GSO.3.94.980424...@morpheus.cis.yale.edu>
Thanks for your time.
yours,
Mike>>
I think it's always that way......
It's as if you were kissed like you never were before, and you spend the rest
of your life trying to marry the one who kissed you. : )
A mystical experience seems like a dream when you return to everyday
consciousness......you think it might have been a slip into madness, but you
don't care.
Miri
The Pan of OC
Nechesh wrote:
>
> <<Subject: oops, I seem to have crossed the Abyss
> From: Mike Estell <mes...@pantheon.yale.edu>
> Date: Fri, Apr 24, 1998 4:29 PM
> Message-id: <Pine.GSO.3.94.980424...@morpheus.cis.yale.edu>
>
> I'm curious to know what experience people have of momentarily
> "accidentally" crossing the Abyss - that is, of suddenly experiencing an
> onset of mystic awareness, or whatever you may wish to call it. We may
> follow a course of study and practice designed to bring on this sort of
> experience, but sometimes it just sort of happens without any effort (as
> far as I know it has not ever happened to me - so far, alas, "I'm an
> earthbound boy," as Julian Cope said).
>
> Crowley in his Confessions says that Allan Bennett accidentally fell into
> the trance known as Shivadarshana when he was a boy, and spent the rest of
> his life trying to get back into it. Bennett's interest in magick and
> mysticism BEGAN with crossing the Abyss; an auspicious start, I guess.
>
> Any similar stories, direct or anecdotal?
>
> Thanks for your time.
>
> yours,
> Mike>>
Mike,
My own experience leads me to believe that 'the abyss' and other
anologies are just ways of talking about things that language can not
express. Mystical experience, epiphany, peak experience, or what ever
you call it, is an aspect of experience that everyone has at times.
Trying to have it is counter productive as far as I can tell. So in a
way, 'accedentally' is the way it's done. Trying to recapture it
afterward, or chase it in the first place is obsessive folly in my way
of thinking.
Miri,
[you wrote]
> I think it's always that way......
> It's as if you were kissed like you never were before, and you spend the rest
> of your life trying to marry the one who kissed you. : )
[and I reply]
Free based cocaine is another good analogy, you can not reproduce the
feeling of the 'first hit,' no matter how much you put in the pipe after
that. Oh but people do try. That's how houses and families are lost.
> A mystical experience seems like a dream when you return to everyday
> consciousness......you think it might have been a slip into madness, but you
> don't care.
The only thing I'll add to this is that divine madness is a gift to be
cherished, not chased.
> Miri
> http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/2113/garden.html
I want to encourage everyone to go and read the wonderful poem at the
link above.
Enjoy,
Pan
PStuart
93
Mike writes:
>Crowley in his Confessions says that Allan Bennett accidentally fell into
>the trance known as Shivadarshana when he was a boy, and spent the rest of
>his life trying to get back into it. Bennett's interest in magick and
>mysticism BEGAN with crossing the Abyss; an auspicious start, I guess.
When I was 15, I was in a bicycle accident, cruising down a muddy hill at great
speed, I went over the handlebars and hit my head on the asphalt at the bottom.
I don't remember that part, tho... what I remember is a full-blown NDE. I was
up above the scene somewhere, in a very comfortable place, calmly remarking to
someone or something that was with me that "someone down there got hurt."
The consquences of this were twofold... First I became extremely aware of just
how close to death we all are at any time. I became very conscious of how I
used my time thereafter... Second, I spent most of the rest of my life
attempting to recreate and explore that kind of experience (which I have done
many times since, without banging my head!). That was essentially my motivation
to explore magick, yoga, hypnosis, psychedelics, and all that fun stuff.
93 93/93
Phil
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Phil's Magick Page O'Hype -- http://members.aol.com/rbcfpstu/
Beyond Hypnosis Page O'Hype -- http://members.aol.com/rbcfpstu/beyond.htm
Tom Schuler
Mike Estell wrote in message ...
>I'm curious to know what experience people have of momentarily
>"accidentally" crossing the Abyss - that is, of suddenly experiencing an
>onset of mystic awareness, or whatever you may wish to call it.
I don't think that a sudden mystical experience is the same as crossing the
Abyss.
You can't accidentally surrender your being to the Void.
Erwin Hessle
The Pan of OC wrote in message <3540D3...@pacbell.net>...
>Tom Schuler wrote:
>>
>> Mike Estell wrote in message ...
>> >I'm curious to know what experience people have of momentarily
>> >"accidentally" crossing the Abyss - that is, of suddenly experiencing an
>> >onset of mystic awareness, or whatever you may wish to call it.
>>
>> I don't think that a sudden mystical experience is the same as crossing
the
>> Abyss.
I absolutely concur.
>> You can't accidentally surrender your being to the Void.
I disagree. I don't think it's possible to enter the Abyss deliberately. On
the contrary, despite the wording of the Oath, I would say that one doesn't
know one has been through the Abyss, until one a quite a distance past the
other side.
Erwin Hessle, 8=3
The Pan of OC
Watch your headers Mr. 3. The way this post came through it looks like
I'm part of this discussion. None of my words apprear in this post.
Thanks,
Pan
Amanda Walker
"Tom Schuler" <d...@teleport.com> writes:
> I don't think that a sudden mystical experience is the same as crossing the
> Abyss.
I would agree.
> You can't accidentally surrender your being to the Void.
Well, you can, but only once per lifetime, probably reciting a mantra
of "oh shit" or its equivalent.
Amanda Walker
Erwin Hessle
The Pan of OC wrote in message <3540E6...@pacbell.net>...
>Erwin Hessle wrote:
>>
>> The Pan of OC wrote in message <3540D3...@pacbell.net>...
>> >Tom Schuler wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Mike Estell wrote in message ...
>> >> >I'm curious to know what experience people have of momentarily
>> >> >"accidentally" crossing the Abyss - that is, of suddenly experiencing
an
>> >> >onset of mystic awareness, or whatever you may wish to call it.
>> >>
>> >> I don't think that a sudden mystical experience is the same as
crossing
>> the
>> >> Abyss.
>>
>> I absolutely concur.
>>
>> >> You can't accidentally surrender your being to the Void.
>>
>> I disagree. I don't think it's possible to enter the Abyss deliberately.
On
>> the contrary, despite the wording of the Oath, I would say that one
doesn't
>> know one has been through the Abyss, until one a quite a distance past
the
>> other side.
>>
>> Erwin Hessle, 8=3
>
>Watch your headers Mr. 3. The way this post came through it looks like
>I'm part of this discussion. None of my words apprear in this post.
I did watch the header. For reasons outside of my knowledge, our good Mr
Schuler's post did not appear on my machine, only your quoting of it.
Erwin Hessle, 8=3
The Pan of OC
Erwin Hessle wrote:
[snip]
> I did watch the header. For reasons outside of my knowledge, our good Mr
> Schuler's post did not appear on my machine, only your quoting of it.
>
> Erwin Hessle, 8=3
Yes, that happens often. It's the server you are using behaving as it
does. Since I'm your self appointed usenet guide I thought I would jump
in and say, if you are going to trim someones comments out of a post
entirely, be kind enough to trim that persons header as well.
Enjoy,
Pan
L.Deerfield
Tom Schuler <d...@teleport.com> wrote:
>
>Mike Estell wrote in message ...
>>I'm curious to know what experience people have of momentarily
>>"accidentally" crossing the Abyss - that is, of suddenly experiencing an
>>onset of mystic awareness, or whatever you may wish to call it.
>
>I don't think that a sudden mystical experience is the same as crossing the
>Abyss.
>
>
>
-Sved
Erwin Hessle
The Pan of OC wrote in message <3540F9...@pacbell.net>...
Fair one. Should the event occur in the future, I will be sure to modify the
post in this manner.
Erwin Hessle, 8=3
Tom Schuler
The Pan of OC wrote in message <3540D3...@pacbell.net>...
>Tom Schuler wrote:
>What is your way Tom? Elaborate on your symbols and how you come by them
>if you would.
I'm not sure I can answer this. I come by my symbols the way anybody does. I
encounter them or I make them up. Sometimes I do both. I don't consider them
synonymous with experiences, but appended to it as a means by which we can
remember them and compare them to each other.
My way is not the symbols I use to describe experiences. It is what I do.
I'm sure this isn't satisfactory to you. Perhaps you could phrase it in a
different fashion.
The Pan of OC
Tom Schuler wrote:
>
[snip]
> My way is not the symbols I use to describe experiences. It is what I do.
>
> I'm sure this isn't satisfactory to you. Perhaps you could phrase it in a
> different fashion.
First, thanks for the response so far, I appreciate it. Frame my inquiry
is in the *idea* of crossing the abyss. To me 'crossing the abyss' is a
symbolic way of describing something that language can't accurately
express. I personally reject the idea of 'the abyss' denoting any aspect
of objective reality.
And now the question:
What do you do Tom?
By way of potential follow up, I may have further inquiries about your
personal symbolism.
Thanks,
Pan
p.s. I apologize if I'm asking you to re-hash something you been over a
bunch of times before on alt.magick. If you have I've missed it, but I
am just now very interested.
Rabbi441
<<I'm curious to know what experience people have of momentarily
"accidentally" crossing the Abyss - that is, of suddenly experiencing an
follow a course of study and practice designed to bring on this sort of
experience, but sometimes it just sort of happens without any effort (as
far as I know it has not ever happened to me - so far, alas, "I'm an
earthbound boy," as Julian Cope said).
Crowley in his Confessions says that Allan Bennett accidentally fell into
the trance known as Shivadarshana when he was a boy, and spent the rest of
his life trying to get back into it. Bennett's interest in magick and
mysticism BEGAN with crossing the Abyss; an auspicious start, I guess.
Any similar stories, direct or anecdotal?
Thanks for your time.
yours,
Mike>>
Mike, what was your experience? If you feel comfortable relating it.
Most people wouldn't desire a plunge into the abyss, since any experience that
strips away everything you thought of as your personal self feels too much like
death.
People who go through the fear and actually cross the abyss are few.
aikeena
Erwin Hessle wrote:
> I disagree. I don't think it's possible to enter the Abyss deliberately. On
> the contrary, despite the wording of the Oath, I would say that one doesn't
> know one has been through the Abyss, until one a quite a distance past the
> other side.
>
> Erwin Hessle, 8=3
I thought about saying something else. I just decided for honesty
instead.
No.
aikeena
joshua geller
talking about the abyss.
remarkable.
best,
josh
___
aikeena
The Pan of OC wrote:
> To me 'crossing the abyss' is a symbolic way of describing something that language
> can't accurately express. I personally reject the idea of 'the abyss' denoting any > aspect of objective reality.
That would depend upon your defintion of 'objective'.
If you mean physically touch then I should point out that the idea that
abyss cannot be directly touched is redundant.
aikeena
aikeena
The Pan of OC wrote:
> To me 'crossing the abyss' is a symbolic way of describing something that language
> can't accurately express. I personally reject the idea of 'the abyss' denoting any > aspect of objective reality.
That would depend upon your defintion of 'objective'.
If you mean physically touch then I should point out that the abyss
The Amazing Renfield
joshua geller wrote:
>
> talking about the abyss.
>
> remarkable.
>
The best analogy I can make is like its being unplugged.
I find it strange that the first thing the mind does when coming back
is take inventory of who you are, where you are, and how long it was
out.
I imagine crossing it would free one from these things.
-Renfield
The Amazing Renfield
The Pan of OC wrote:
> To me 'crossing the abyss' is a
> symbolic way of describing something that language can't accurately
> express. I personally reject the idea of 'the abyss' denoting any aspect
> of objective reality.
:(
-Renfield
The Amazing Renfield
Rabbi441 wrote:
>
> <<I'm curious to know what experience people have of momentarily
> "accidentally" crossing the Abyss - that is, of suddenly experiencing an
> onset of mystic awareness, or whatever you may wish to call it. We may
> follow a course of study and practice designed to bring on this sort of
> experience, but sometimes it just sort of happens without any effort (as
> far as I know it has not ever happened to me - so far, alas, "I'm an
> earthbound boy," as Julian Cope said).
>
What do you mean by 'mystic awareness'?
Do you follow a course of study to bring about this state?
Are you really a rabbi? I ask because I haven't met or talked to
one knowingly.
> Mike, what was your experience? If you feel comfortable relating it.
>
> Most people wouldn't desire a plunge into the abyss, since any experience that
> strips away everything you thought of as your personal self feels too much like
> death.
> People who go through the fear and actually cross the abyss are few.
These people are crazy.
-Renfield
Mike Estell
> Tom Schuler <d...@teleport.com> wrote:
> >
> >I don't think that a sudden mystical experience is the same as crossing the
> >Abyss.
As you can see from the quote, my server hasn't given me your post yet,
and I'm responding to a piece of it that someone else quoted in a post
that I did see. Anyway...
It's clear that I don't really understand what is meant by "crossing the
Abyss." (I suppose it's impossible to conceive of it unless one has
experienced it.) I thought that it was to transcend ego-consciousness.
Most mystical experiences (of the sort described by William James in the
chapter on mysticism in "Varieties...") seem to involve just this.
Would you say that "crossing the Abyss" is a lasting thing, and that once
you've done it, you've done it, whereas in the case of a garden-variety
mystical experience, you can go out by the same door you went in, and end
up more or less unchanged?
(I here append the hideously disingenuous disclaimer, "I know that the
less one says of such things the better, but nevertheless...")
yours,
Mike
LudvigPrin
The experience titled "Crossing the Abyss" is an initiation. The actual
consciousness of the magician is often "back down here", especially in dealing
with day=to-day business. Each initiation places another rung on the magician's
ladder, so that when he chooses, he may climb higher, always returning below.
This is described in Liber Os and Liber B when "a Star is shot forth into the
Heavens". It also is an arcanum that only a Magus can witness the birth of a
Magus.
Oh, blah blah blah.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
% There is no grace
% There is no guilt
% There is no God but Man.
%
% Ludvig Prinn
% Ludvi...@aol.com
%
% Emailed replies may be posted
richard sprigg
Mike Estell wrote:
>
> Crowley in his Confessions says that Allan Bennett accidentally fell into
> the trance known as Shivadarshana when he was a boy,
Hardly "accidentally". He was attempting to conjure the devil.
and spent the rest of
> his life trying to get back into it. Bennett's interest in magick and
> mysticism BEGAN with crossing the Abyss;
I disagree. He had a sudden mystical experience, as have many. you
return, and carry on, as did Bennett.
As I understand the process, when you enter the abyss, "you" do not
return.
richard sprigg
Amanda Walker wrote:
>
> "Tom Schuler" <d...@teleport.com> writes:
> > I don't think that a sudden mystical experience is the same as crossing the
> > Abyss.
>
>
> > You can't accidentally surrender your being to the Void.
>
> of "oh shit" or its equivalent.
Them tangential tantrums again?
Richard
Amanda Walker
richard sprigg <kt...@sympatico.ca> writes:
> Them tangential tantrums again?
I was thinking more along the lines of slamming into a bridge abutment
or something similar.
Amanda Walker
richard sprigg
Might be easier.
peter li'ir key
Tom Schuler <d...@teleport.com> wrote:
>I don't think that a sudden mystical experience is the same as crossing the
>Abyss.
rotfl!
>You can't accidentally surrender your being to the Void.
can you do it deliberately?
* * *
you think too much.
peter li'ir key
k...@springhaven.org
Jon Browne
In article <35416C...@cisco.com>, The Amazing Renfield
<r...@cisco.com> writes
>I find it strange that the first thing the mind does when coming back
>is take inventory of who you are, where you are, and how long it was
>out.
>
>I imagine crossing it would free one from these things.
>
> -Renfield
This is what has confused me.
If I had "crossed" why was I back?
Or was I cast out?
It is only in the last couple of months I have seen experiences similar
to my own described as "crossing".
These experiences were 12 and 6 years ago.
It would never have occured to me that equate "that" with "that".
I still don't _know_ that "that" is what I have done.
However, I have (not) been somewhere else.
--
Jon
The Pan of OC
>
> If you mean physically touch then I should point out that the abyss
> cannot be directly touched is redundant.
>
> aikeena
I don't equate 'physical' with objective.
Pan
The Pan of OC
joshua geller wrote:
>
> talking about the abyss.
>
> remarkable.
>
>
> josh
>
Well actually about Tom.
Pan
John
Tom Schuler wrote:
> Mike Estell wrote in message ...
> >I'm curious to know what experience people have of momentarily
> >"accidentally" crossing the Abyss - that is, of suddenly experiencing an
> >onset of mystic awareness, or whatever you may wish to call it.
>
> I don't think that a sudden mystical experience is the same as crossing the
> Abyss.
>
> You can't accidentally surrender your being to the Void.
No you can't, but in special cases you can be pushed.
John...
John
LudvigPrin wrote:
> The experience titled "Crossing the Abyss" is an initiation. The actual
> consciousness of the magician is often "back down here", especially in dealing
> with day=to-day business. Each initiation places another rung on the magician's
> ladder, so that when he chooses, he may climb higher, always returning below.
> This is described in Liber Os and Liber B when "a Star is shot forth into the
> Heavens". It also is an arcanum that only a Magus can witness the birth of a
> Magus.
>
> Oh, blah blah blah.
Oh come on now, I mean their just talking about the abcense of anything, that
somehow is being summed up in words of something, even though nothing really
describes nothing, but everything is about as close as you get to nothing, but also
its about as far away as anything can be from nothing, for nothing has got be
something, right?
Oh shit!
I just accidentally crossed "it" too. As if the first three intentional times
weren't enough.
John...
John
joshua geller wrote:
> talking about the abyss.
>
> remarkable.
>
> best,
>
> josh
>
It is pretty amazing, considering what the aybss is.
John...
PStuart
93
The Pan of OC writes:
>First, thanks for the response so far, I appreciate it. Frame my inquiry
>is in the *idea* of crossing the abyss. To me 'crossing the abyss' is a
>symbolic way of describing something that language can't accurately
>express. I personally reject the idea of 'the abyss' denoting any aspect
>of objective reality.
IMO, there are abysses and abysses. The "abyss" is a metaphor to describe a
process of coming closer to consciousness of "ultimate reality," awareness
without the usual filter of mind, pure experience. There are smaller trees of
life within each sephiroth, and abysses to cross in every action or mode or
being. "THE Abyss," like "True Will," or total mystical awareness is always one
(or more) step beyond us, no matter what you do... you never reach the end of
infinity.
The map is not the territory.
A spontaneous mystical experience could certainly be considered the crossing of
AN abyss, IMO.
93 93/93
Phil
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Phil's Magick Page O'Hype -- http://members.aol.com/rbcfpstu/
Beyond Hypnosis Page O'Hype -- http://members.aol.com/rbcfpstu/beyond.htm
PStuart
93
aikeena writes:
>The Pan of OC wrote:
>
>> To me 'crossing the abyss' is a symbolic way of describing something that
>language
>> can't accurately express. I personally reject the idea of 'the abyss'
>denoting any > aspect of objective reality.
>
>That would depend upon your defintion of 'objective'.
>
>If you mean physically touch then I should point out that the abyss
>cannot be directly touched is redundant.
IMO, the Abyss, qabalistically speaking, represents the gap between the subject
and objective itself. Or, rather, that is one way of approaching it.
PStuart
93
richard sprigg writes:
>As I understand the process, when you enter the abyss, "you" do not
>return.
Strictly speaking, when you do ANYTHING, "you" do not return. Consciousness
changes all the time... every impression you take in changes "you." The more
intense the experience, the more of your consciousness changes. Again, abysses
within abysses...
Amanda Walker
Mike Estell <mes...@pantheon.yale.edu> writes:
> It's clear that I don't really understand what is meant by "crossing the
> Abyss."
What is meant probably depends a lot on who is speaking.
Many of the things people have been saying may be quite valid, but
I would not use the phrase "crossing the Abyss" to refer to what they
describe. I generally don't find it fruitful to discuss the Abyss,
though I have given it a try on occasion (and have noted at the time
that doing so is more misleading than not).
> I thought that it was to transcend ego-consciousness.
Transcending the ego is a developmental stage, just like transcending
the Terrible Twos. It is certainly worth discussing. Tom discusses
it a lot, for example.
> whereas in the case of a garden-variety
> mystical experience, you can go out by the same door you went in, and end
> up more or less unchanged?
Gardens a very pleasant places for mystical experiences. Japanese gardens
especially. If you are left unchanged, was it a mystical experience?
Can you be left unchanged by anything?
> (I here append the hideously disingenuous disclaimer, "I know that the
> less one says of such things the better, but nevertheless...")
But nevertheless what?
Amanda Walker
Amanda Walker
A most excellent observation. Quite correct.
Amanda Walker
L.Deerfield
>
>The map is not the territory.
>
>A spontaneous mystical experience could certainly be considered the crossing of
>AN abyss, IMO.
Mapping is a useful metaphor in itself. Not following maps,
but making and changing them.
And perhaps part of the problem here is distinguishing between
"spontaneous" and "accidental." St. John of the Cross--accidental or
spontaneuos entrance to the Dark Night?
-Sved
MarketIce
pst...@aol.com (PStuart), wrote in article:
<199804251442...@ladder03.news.aol.com>:
>IMO, there are abysses and abysses. The "abyss" is a metaphor >to describe a
>process of coming closer to consciousness of "ultimate reality," >awareness
>without the usual filter of mind, pure experience.
Yet reaching that point is not always on purpose, nor the goal at the time of
the experience. Yet to look back upon it, sometimes the filter of the mind
seems so distracting, but why not just live your life as it is? Even if your
mind is filtering, you can trandscend the abstraction of the concept and simply
live.
>There are smaller trees of
>life within each sephiroth, and abysses to cross in every action or >mode or
>being. "THE Abyss," like "True Will," or total mystical awareness >is always
one
>(or more) step beyond us, no matter what you do...
Therefore, finding and following your true will is enough to master for your
own lifetime.
> you never reach the end of
>infinity.
>
>The map is not the territory.
>
>A spontaneous mystical experience could certainly be >considered the crossing
>of
>AN abyss, IMO.
>
>93 93/93
>Phil
>------Market Ice-------<
http://members.aol.com/meltdarok
This site is now another gateway to the web
"Find it, assemble it, sell it, buy it;
after that then--
salvage what you can."
Tom Schuler
In article <354119...@pacbell.net>, oh...@pacbell.net wrote:
>
>What do you do Tom?
All sorts of things. Sometimes I do very little. It depends on what is going
on at the time.
I don't have a religion and the rythyms I follow are the ones I feel rather
than those I have learned about. What I do is try to pay attention and act
when the time feels right. I try to describe experiences I've had in ways
other people can understand them. I have no idea whether this actually works
much, but I think it should, if it's done right. I like to match the
experiences I have had with the records of other people who have experienced
something that seems similar.
I know a lot of words and other symbols and I like putting them together in
unexpected ways. Sometimes they describe what I am feeling, sometimes they
induce feelings I haven't been aware of before. Many times they do neither,
but I'm stubborn and keep at it.
I occasionally visit the celebrations and ordeals of various belief systems
and try to get some hints as to what they are feeling when they attain
spiritual experiences. I try to see the underlying patterns that exist in the
world and in my mind and the minds of others.
I do a lot of checking on my perceptions. I try not to believe things.
richard sprigg
Pontius Pilot wrote:
>
> richard sprigg wrote
> >As I understand the process, when you enter the abyss,
> >"you" do not return.
>
> 1) do not return ALONE,
> 2) and if so, it is for a particular reason.
This may be valid for you.
Not dwelling in Binah, my understanding is not initiated.
It seems to me that all that is the postulant is destroyed. That which
ascends the far shore is not he.
>
> Anyone who claims to have crossed the abyss will have a clear
> and definite understanding of who and WHAT the host, dweller
> and guest really are. Any fear that remains of your own demise,
> fate, or purpose in life after the experience means that you
> didn't quite get it...
Anyone who has crossed would understand not.
Richard
richard sprigg
PStuart wrote:
>
> 93
>
> richard sprigg writes:
>
> >As I understand the process, when you enter the abyss, "you" do not
> >return.
>
> changes all the time... every impression you take in changes "you." The more
> intense the experience, the more of your consciousness changes. Again, abysses
> within abysses...
Accepted.
Richard
richard sprigg
Tom Schuler wrote:
>
>
> I occasionally visit the celebrations and ordeals of various belief systems
> and try to get some hints as to what they are feeling when they attain
> spiritual experiences. I try to see the underlying patterns that exist in the
> world and in my mind and the minds of others.
>
> I do a lot of checking on my perceptions. I try not to believe things.
Fascinating. I try and find meaning in the everyday, also.
remember the old maxim "Trust no one"?
had fun with that for months with meaning upon meaning.
John
MarketIce wrote:
> Therefore, finding and following your true will is enough to master for your
> own lifetime.
And so finally a little wisdom appears.
John...
David R. Jones
>These people are crazy.
>
> -Renfield
Yes we are, but at least we're not institutionalized
The Pan of OC
Tom Schuler wrote:
>
> In article <354119...@pacbell.net>, oh...@pacbell.net wrote:
> >
> >What do you do Tom?
>
Thank you Tom.
Pan
sy.
On Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:51:27 -0700, The Pan of OC <oh...@pacbell.net>
wrote:
>
>> http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/2113/garden.html
>
>I want to encourage everyone to go and read the wonderful poem at the
>link above.
Pan,
have you read any of Nick Herbert's poetry?
you may enjoy it.
http://www.cruzio.com/~zerocity/v1n3/16.htm
sy.
albert
neverTom Schuler wrote:
>
> In article <354119...@pacbell.net>, oh...@pacbell.net wrote:
> >
> >What do you do Tom?
>
> on at the time.
>
> I don't have a religion and the rythyms I follow are the ones I feel rather
> than those I have learned about. What I do is try to pay attention and act
> when the time feels right. I try to describe experiences I've had in ways
> other people can understand them. I have no idea whether this actually works
> much, but I think it should, if it's done right. I like to match the
> experiences I have had with the records of other people who have experienced
> something that seems similar.
>
> I know a lot of words and other symbols and I like putting them together in
> unexpected ways. Sometimes they describe what I am feeling, sometimes they
> induce feelings I haven't been aware of before. Many times they do neither,
> but I'm stubborn and keep at it.
>
> and try to get some hints as to what they are feeling when they attain
> spiritual experiences. I try to see the underlying patterns that exist in the
> world and in my mind and the minds of others.
>
> I do a lot of checking on my perceptions. I try not to believe things.
nonsense
The Amazing Renfield
Thank goodness. I am afraid of those places.
-Renfield
The Pan of OC
sy. wrote:
>
[snip]
> have you read any of Nick Herbert's poetry?
> you may enjoy it.
> http://www.cruzio.com/~zerocity/v1n3/16.htm
> sy.
I have and I do. Thank you,
Pan
The Pan of OC
albert wrote:
>
> neverTom Schuler wrote:
> >
[snip]
> >
> > I do a lot of checking on my perceptions. I try not to believe things.
>
> nonsense
Is that all you have to say?
Pan
Tom Schuler
Erwin Hessle wrote in message <3540d...@news1.mcmail.com>...
>
>>Tom Schuler wrote:
>>
>>> I don't think that a sudden mystical experience is the same as crossing
>>> the Abyss.
>
>I absolutely concur.
>
>>> You can't accidentally surrender your being to the Void.
>
>I disagree. I don't think it's possible to enter the Abyss deliberately. On
>the contrary, despite the wording of the Oath, I would say that one doesn't
>know one has been through the Abyss, until one a quite a distance past the
>other side.
>
>Erwin Hessle, 8=3
>
>
M. Kaplan
On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Mike Estell wrote:
> I'm curious to know what experience people have of momentarily
> "accidentally" crossing the Abyss - that is, of suddenly experiencing an
> onset of mystic awareness, or whatever you may wish to call it.
Whether it was crossing the Abyss or sudden mystic awareness, I must say
I've been pretty irritated coming back to the mundane world. I get so
angry that I have to live up to the knowledge I gained, yet am unequipped
to do so. I get so tired of having a spiritual awareness, a wisdom, that
in the mundane world is like a faraway liquid dream that I can't hold onto
for intellectual or emotional support in day to day reality. I often
wonder whether I'd have been better off ignorant of the nature of reality.
One of my few comforts is reading Crowley and knowing that he himself
commented on the difficulties he had in living up to the ideals he knew to
be "True".
mika
Erwin Hessle
M. Kaplan wrote in message ...
Why on earth would one *want* to live up to such ideals? Just ignore them.
Go out for a drink or something. Play some golf. Don't worry about it.
Erwin Hessle, 8=3
The Pan of OC
M. Kaplan wrote:
[snip]
> Whether it was crossing the Abyss or sudden mystic awareness, I must say
> I've been pretty irritated coming back to the mundane world. I get so
> angry that I have to live up to the knowledge I gained, yet am unequipped
> to do so. I get so tired of having a spiritual awareness, a wisdom, that
> in the mundane world is like a faraway liquid dream that I can't hold onto
> for intellectual or emotional support in day to day reality. I often
> wonder whether I'd have been better off ignorant of the nature of reality.
In my own estimation, it's not worth much if you can't apply it to your
life. I mean what's the point if not the betterment of your life. I do
daily meditative/ritual work, I apply what techniques and knowlege I
gain as a result of that work to my daily living situation. I'm not
saying I've got it all figured out, but my way is to focus on those
things I can practically use and to leave what doesn't strike me as
practically useful for another day and time. If nothing else, this saves
on frustration. And anything I gain that does not make practical sense
doesn't seem to go away, it just sits there until I'm ready for it.
> One of my few comforts is reading Crowley and knowing that he himself
> commented on the difficulties he had in living up to the ideals he knew to
> be "True".
>
> mika
I personally would be hard-pressed to be a happy person (which I
basically am) if I felt I couldn't live up to my own standards and
ideals. I would sooner lower my standards until such as time as I could
raise them without belittling my own abilities. Take the mundane as the
'important' part of it all, it cetainly occupies the most time. Then
suppliment your mundane abilities with what you learn on the astral (or
internal planes). Perhaps this small shift in focus will make life a
little less frustrating for you.
To be honest my ideals are always set just a hair beyond my reach at any
given point. This keeps me moving forward. But my point above is to not
allow my shortcomings to discourage me but spur me on. If I felt the gap
was too great, between my ideals and my abilities, I may be prone to
discouragement and inaction on all levels. That's not going to help if
you see what I mean.
Pan
M. Kaplan
On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, The Pan of OC wrote:
> M. Kaplan wrote:
>
> > to do so. I get so tired of having a spiritual awareness, a wisdom, that
> > in the mundane world is like a faraway liquid dream that I can't hold onto
> > for intellectual or emotional support in day to day reality. I often
> > wonder whether I'd have been better off ignorant of the nature of reality.
>
> In my own estimation, it's not worth much if you can't apply it to your
> life. I mean what's the point if not the betterment of your life.
It's not a matter of learning useless tools. I get irritated because I'm
faced with a vision of reality that my own fears or demons prevent me from
experiencing fully. I'm just fucking sick of it. Sick of losing to those
demons.
So is it better to taste heaven, then live a life of pain and frustration
trying to get another bite, or is it better to never know heaven to begin
with.
> but my way is to focus on those
> things I can practically use and to leave what doesn't strike me as
> practically useful for another day and time.
I can't not follow my Will because it doesn't satisfy me at the moment.
> I personally would be hard-pressed to be a happy person (which I
> basically am) if I felt I couldn't live up to my own standards and
> ideals. I would sooner lower my standards until such as time as I could
> raise them without belittling my own abilities.
See above comment...
mika
The Pan of OC
M. Kaplan wrote:
[snip]
> It's not a matter of learning useless tools. I get irritated because I'm
> faced with a vision of reality that my own fears or demons prevent me from
> experiencing fully. I'm just fucking sick of it. Sick of losing to those
> demons.
Ah, much clearer now. I may not have much to offer by way of *good*
advice but I do understand. The one thing that keeps comming to mind
comes straight from The Pan. Focus on the pleasures of the flesh for
awhile, indulge yourself. It couldn't hurt! Along with that, keep at it!
What's the phrase: 'The dark night of the soul' or something like that?
Maybe that's where you are right now, and if so, then the advice is
always the same: keep working at it, re-double your efforts, you must be
getting close.
> So is it better to taste heaven, then live a life of pain and frustration
> trying to get another bite, or is it better to never know heaven to begin
> with.
I've got to say that if a taste of heaven leaves you with a life of pain
and frustration then I'll take hell. I've tasted hell and it leaves me
in state of joyous celebration for the life I have to live and all the
pleasures that go with it. Of course there is pain, frustration, etc.
all of which only make those pleasures the more enjoyable.
[snip]
> I can't not follow my Will because it doesn't satisfy me at the moment.
Now there's a thought I can definately relate to. I've been skirting my
Will for years. I'm quite artful at it. I don't know if *doing* it in
its entirety would satisfy me or not. I'm still living in the 'do what
thou please' mentality. The thing that kills me is that I can only go so
far down one of my many sidetracks until my Will pulls down the curtain
and ends the show, brings me back to square 1. From there it's pretty
clear, what I *have* to do, but then there are always so many enticing
side avenues to look at. The road straight ahead seems somewhat
difficult, somber, and hard. So many of the side roads have pretty
lights, sumptuous smells, wonderous sounds... oh so many enticing
things...
Be happy, take some time to cater to your desires. It may not be the
spritual thing to do, but it sure can be fun. Then just hang in there,
keep working at it, I believe you will get what you are after, in time.
Enjoy,
Pan
L.Deerfield
M. Kaplan <lil...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>
>On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, The Pan of OC wrote:
>
>> M. Kaplan wrote:
>>
>> > to do so. I get so tired of having a spiritual awareness, a wisdom, that
>> > in the mundane world is like a faraway liquid dream that I can't hold onto
>> > for intellectual or emotional support in day to day reality. I often
>> > wonder whether I'd have been better off ignorant of the nature of reality.
>>
>> In my own estimation, it's not worth much if you can't apply it to your
>> life. I mean what's the point if not the betterment of your life.
>
>faced with a vision of reality that my own fears or demons prevent me from
>experiencing fully. I'm just fucking sick of it. Sick of losing to those
>demons.
>
>trying to get another bite, or is it better to never know heaven to begin
>with.
I for one, would never give up that taste of heaven, even if with
it would go all my pain. Besides, I don't think the pain would go, it
would just be a more grinding dull sensation. I also have given up
on striving to get another bite, and settled on enjoying what moments come
my way as much as possible. Sometimes you have to get smacked upside the
head to stop and feel the joy in taking the next breath.
>
>> but my way is to focus on those
>> things I can practically use and to leave what doesn't strike me as
>> practically useful for another day and time.
>
>I can't not follow my Will because it doesn't satisfy me at the moment.
But the nature of the journey is up to you...
The Amazing Renfield
M. Kaplan wrote:
> So is it better to taste heaven, then live a life of pain and frustration
> trying to get another bite, or is it better to never know heaven to begin
> with.
Far better to taste Heaven, then get back to work.
If you work hard, you may enter Heaven whenever you wish,
but that's not the point.
Your angel helps you 'cheat'. You do not have to go in a
straight line.
I love speaking riddles! This is the shit!
-Renfield
Tzadgiel
Erwin Hessle:
>The Pan of OC:
>>> You can't accidentally surrender your being to the Void.
From what I hear, getting in's the easy part. You can't accidentally
*cross* it.
>I disagree. I don't think it's possible to enter the Abyss deliberately. On
>the contrary, despite the wording of the Oath, I would say that one doesn't
>know one has been through the Abyss, until one a quite a distance past the
>other side.
Now that's not what I heard. Fifteen minutes breathless is sort of hard
to miss. First seven minutes are like schizophrenia, seven minutes
next are total void. The challenge: resuming breathing. That's a
crossing. Less than fifteen minutes you can come back, but you've
not crossed it.
Layo
ideo...@datasync.com
David R. Jones <jdn...@budget.net> wrote in article
<3542ce28...@news.budget.net>...
>
> >These people are crazy.
> >
> > -Renfield
>
> Yes we are, but at least we're not institutionalized
>
Are you sure? I'm still not wholly convinced that the whole planet
isn't some kind of cosmic institution. Then again maybe I'm just
being paranoid. :)})
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Nothing is true, everything is permissible.
= === + === =
Reality is in the mind of the beholder.
- MERKVRIUS THE YOUNGER
http://www.datasync.com/ideomagick/psychognosis/
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/8563/
http://members.xoom.com/ideomagi/
http://members.tripod.com/~ideomagi/ (up soon)
aikeena
The Amazing Renfield wrote:
> Far better to taste Heaven, then get back to work.
>
> If you work hard, you may enter Heaven whenever you wish,
> but that's not the point.
>
> Your angel helps you 'cheat'. You do not have to go in a
> straight line.
>
> I love speaking riddles! This is the shit!
>
> -Renfield
Isn't it?
You're right. If proper preparation is taken before mounting a visionary
experience, often a great deal or all of the illumination and
enlightening experience can be taken back "home".
This requires rigorous discipline and the willingness to change, to
become different so that you don't go back to who you were. Once the
intellectual, emotional, mental, and physical supports are in place the
experience doesn't slip away as much.
As for the rest, I would hate to ruin Ren's riddle.
aikeena
Nechesh
ideomagi writes:
<<> Yes we are, but at least we're not institutionalized
>
Are you sure? I'm still not wholly convinced that the whole planet
isn't some kind of cosmic institution. Then again maybe I'm just
being paranoid. :)})>>
And it's time for your medicine and cold wrap.
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/2113/garden.html
PStuart
93
>> So is it better to taste heaven, then live a life of pain and frustration
>> trying to get another bite, or is it better to never know heaven to begin
>> with.
>
>
>Far better to taste Heaven, then get back to work.
IMO, once you have tasted heaven, it's a lot easier to locate again.
Patrick Schaaf
k...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (peter li'ir key) writes:
>>You can't accidentally surrender your being to the Void.
>can you do it deliberately?
Can you do it the same way a second time?
When I match what has been written here about the experience, with things
I experienced myself over the years (and there's a pretty clear class
of those that resonates), I find that all of mine had triggers that seem
plausible after-the-fact, but none of them worked another time.
If you don't know the book, read 'enfants terribles' by Cocteau in one
session, and then go to sleep. Maybe set up a bucket full of cold water
for later grounding...
Patrick
Tom Schuler
The Pan of OC wrote in message <354513...@pacbell.net>...
>M. Kaplan wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> It's not a matter of learning useless tools. I get irritated because I'm
>> faced with a vision of reality that my own fears or demons prevent me from
>> experiencing fully. I'm just fucking sick of it. Sick of losing to those
>> demons.
>
>What's the phrase: 'The dark night of the soul' or something like that?
>Maybe that's where you are right now, and if so, then the advice is
>always the same: keep working at it, re-double your efforts, you must be
>getting close.
Augustine called it that. The spiritual alchemists called it nigredo, the
blackness. It is a time when nothing at all seems to work. Perseverence is
key. Become discouraged, but don't stop. Lose all hope, but continue on the
path you have set for yourself.
>> I can't not follow my Will because it doesn't satisfy me at the moment.
A double negative? Interesting. Will doesn't always satisfy, The will is not
designed to please. It is designed to do.
The Pan of OC
Tom Schuler wrote:
>
[snip a more eloquent and educated version of what I was trying to say]
> ...Will doesn't always satisfy, The will is not
> designed to please. It is designed to do.
I'd like to draw a distinction between 'please' and 'satisfy.' I'm
seeing those things as very different just now.
A good friend pointed it out to me in an email response to an earlier
post. I can say I'm not very pleased with some current events in my
life, but I am satisfied that I'm moving in the right direction,
learning the things I need to learn. Doing what I must do.
Satisfaction seems a deeper thing than pleasure (oh shit did I just say
that?) Yes I believe it is.
Pan
M. Kaplan
On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, The Pan of OC wrote:
> Focus on the pleasures of the flesh for
> awhile, indulge yourself. It couldn't hurt!
See comment below
> Along with that, keep at it!
> What's the phrase: 'The dark night of the soul' or something like that?
"Oh ye dwellers of the dark night of the soul,
beware most of all every herald of the dawn"
(Crowley, Book of Lies, forgot which chapter)
> Maybe that's where you are right now, and if so, then the advice is
> always the same: keep working at it, re-double your efforts, you must be
> getting close.
Yes, very close. Which makes it harder to beware of all those heralds.
> Be happy, take some time to cater to your desires. It may not be the
> spritual thing to do, but it sure can be fun. Then just hang in there,
> keep working at it, I believe you will get what you are after, in time.
Thanks. Believe me, I take great pleasure in life. I just want it all.
mika
The Pan of OC
M. Kaplan wrote:
>
> On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, The Pan of OC wrote:
>
> > Focus on the pleasures of the flesh for
> > awhile, indulge yourself. It couldn't hurt!
>
> See comment below
>
> > Along with that, keep at it!
> > What's the phrase: 'The dark night of the soul' or something like that?
>
> "Oh ye dwellers of the dark night of the soul,
> beware most of all every herald of the dawn"
>
> (Crowley, Book of Lies, forgot which chapter)
>
> > Maybe that's where you are right now, and if so, then the advice is
> > always the same: keep working at it, re-double your efforts, you must be
> > getting close.
>
> Yes, very close. Which makes it harder to beware of all those heralds.
Well don't be afraid of Harold, he's a very nice man. Oh, sorry, you
said herald. Never mind!
>
> > Be happy, take some time to cater to your desires. It may not be the
> > spritual thing to do, but it sure can be fun. Then just hang in there,
> > keep working at it, I believe you will get what you are after, in time.
>
> Thanks. Believe me, I take great pleasure in life. I just want it all.
>
> mika
That's nice to hear from anyone, taking pleasure in life. And wanting it
all ain't so bad, but you've got to be willing to work at it, forever!
Pan
James Foster
On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, Tom Schuler wrote:
> >What's the phrase: 'The dark night of the soul' or something like that?
> >Maybe that's where you are right now, and if so, then the advice is
> >always the same: keep working at it, re-double your efforts, you must be
> >getting close.
>
> Augustine called it that. The spiritual alchemists called it nigredo, the
Okay, I'm anal-retentive. Tom, I'm pretty sure it was John of the Cross,
and not Augustine who coined that phrase.
G Leake
oh...@pacbell.net wrote:
Trying to have it is counter productive as far as I can tell. So in a
way, 'accedentally' is the way it's done. Trying to recapture it
afterward, or chase it in the first place is obsessive folly in my way
of thinking.
*so do you think those who claim that they have had some success then are
basically charlatans?
*personally, I think everyone's psyche is on a different wavelength--so
its a bit hard to generalize--perhaps for you it is folly, and perhaps for
many others as well.
Free based cocaine is another good analogy, you can not reproduce the
feeling of the 'first hit,' no matter how much you put in the pipe after
that. Oh but people do try. That's how houses and families are lost.
*this is a horrible analogy. Hell I have experiences thanks to relaxation,
letting go and focus approaching samadhi sitting on my front porch every
night listening to the wind blow and birds sing and watching my garden
grow. Some things one can achieve through hard work.
--
____________________________________________________
I have noticed that people who dislike me are invariably rendered
so blind by malice that they give themselves away and make
themselves ridiculous.
-Aleister Crowley, _Confessions_
George Leake, D.H.M.
*OBLIGATORY "TRESPASSERS WILL BE VIOLATED" TYPE WARNING*
By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C), it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment. By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500, whichever is greater, for each violation.
PStuart
93
>Free based cocaine is another good analogy, you can not reproduce the
>feeling of the 'first hit,' no matter how much you put in the pipe after
>that.
I thought it was easily reproduced... it was a stupid buzz every time. Try the
same experiment with nitrous oxide, or ketamine, both of which are closer
approximations of mystical experience... the high can be reproduced, tho
perhaps not every time, and you have to be aware of the minutiae of
variables... set and setting, dudes.
Rick Laughlin
G Leake wrote:
> >
> > oh...@pacbell.net wrote:
> > Trying to have it is counter productive as far as I can tell. So in a
> > way, 'accedentally' is the way it's done. Trying to recapture it
> > afterward, or chase it in the first place is obsessive folly in my way
> > of thinking.
> *so do you think those who claim that they have had some success then are
> basically charlatans?
No, I don't think too much about them at all. I usually give people all
the space they need to believe anything they want without my influence.
I sometimes get interested in what other people believe and work to get
them to put it into words for me to look at. I lost interest in the
abyss and people's opinions about it a week ago.
> *personally, I think everyone's psyche is on a different wavelength--so
> its a bit hard to generalize--perhaps for you it is folly, and perhaps for
> many others as well.
It would be folly for me to give it any further consideration at this
time. If it were important to me I would feel it was important. I don't
so it's not.
> Free based cocaine is another good analogy, you can not reproduce the
> feeling of the 'first hit,' no matter how much you put in the pipe after
> that. Oh but people do try. That's how houses and families are lost.
> *this is a horrible analogy. Hell I have experiences thanks to relaxation,
> letting go and focus approaching samadhi sitting on my front porch every
> night listening to the wind blow and birds sing and watching my garden
> grow. Some things one can achieve through hard work.
It's a horrible anaology describing a horrible thing: Obsession for the
unattainable.
I'd rather sit silently in your garden (or mine) with you than discuss
'the abyss' anyday of the week. Do you grow gardenias?
____________________________________________________
> George Leake, D.H.M.
>
You are responding to a pretty old post. I'm flighty and not likely to
maintain the same attitude from one week to the next.
Rick
Rick Laughlin
PStuart wrote:
>
> 93
>
> >Free based cocaine is another good analogy, you can not reproduce the
> >feeling of the 'first hit,' no matter how much you put in the pipe after
> >that.
>
I'm not sure what you are refering to. If you are talking about
free-based cocaine, the closest thing I can compare it to is the peak of
orgasm lasting 3-5 minutes. That's the first hit in a session only.
After that it gets weaker and weaker.
> Try the
> same experiment with nitrous oxide, or ketamine, both of which are closer
> approximations of mystical experience... the high can be reproduced, tho
> perhaps not every time, and you have to be aware of the minutiae of
> variables... set and setting, dudes.
>
> 93 93/93
> Phil
The most significant mystical experiences I have had have been
accomplished without drugs. I've only tried nitrous oxide at the dentist
office. The experience was interesting, but nothing at all like what I
define as mysical. I've never tried the other and I'm not likely to at
this point, I've found more reliable ways (for me personally) to alter
my awareness.
Good conversation though.
Thanks,
Rick
Rick Laughlin
PStuart wrote:
> 93
> Rick Laughlin writes:
> >I'm not sure what you are refering to. If you are talking about
> >free-based cocaine, the closest thing I can compare it to is the peak of
> >orgasm lasting 3-5 minutes. That's the first hit in a session only.
> >After that it gets weaker and weaker.
> You must have very annoying orgasms... But of course everyone reacts
> differently to both drugs and orgasms. I tried freebase after years of
> experimenting with psychedelics... Cocaine of any kind, IMO, is dull compared
> to some of those.
Well they really don't compare at all. It's not like the difference
between beer and wine. It's more like the difference between pot and
speed.
My suspicion is you haven't tried free-based cocaine. You have to get
relatively high grade material and freebase it yourself. If you buy
'crack' then I think you could be getting anything. Smoking free-based
cocaine is not at all like taking cocaine it in any other form,
including injection, nasal or rectal. Really, it can't be described.
Then again, maybe you have tried it and it just doesn't effect like it
does most people. Take Amanda for example.
> >The most significant mystical experiences I have had have been
> >accomplished without drugs.
> I've had "significant" mystical experiences with or without, and have found
> repeatable methods "both" ways.
I chose to seperate the two for practical reasons, I needed to. This may
change someday; I'm not currently working to change it though.
> >I've only tried nitrous oxide at the dentist
> >office.
> Dentists mix too much oxygen into the gas... Ask him to give you some straight
> up in a balloon to take home, do a few minutes of pranayama, then suck in a
> really big hit. ;)
OK, I'm due for a cleaning. I'll ask and I'll let you know what I think.
> <<I've found more reliable ways (for me personally) to alter
> my awareness.>>
> Like I said, there are all kinds of reliable ways to do all sorts of things...
True enough.
> Party on...
Count on it!
Thanks again for the exchange,
Rick
Amanda Walker
Rick Laughlin <oh...@pacbell.net> writes:
> Then again, maybe you have tried it and it just doesn't effect like it
> does most people. Take Amanda for example.
I've never tried freebased cocaine, and I must admit I have no
inclination to. I did try a pretty healthy dose of cannabis (in two
forms) again recently, with no noticeable effect beyond slight
relaxation (which may well have been the result of the large,
quickly-consumed dose of chocolate :-)).
Amanda Walker
Rick Laughlin
Amanda Walker wrote:
>
[snip]
>
> I've never tried freebased cocaine, and I must admit I have no
> inclination to. I did try a pretty healthy dose of cannabis (in two
> forms) again recently, with no noticeable effect beyond slight
> relaxation (which may well have been the result of the large,
> quickly-consumed dose of chocolate :-)).
>
> Amanda Walker
I don't recommend it to anyone.
I'm one of those who would like to watch you not being effected by such
things.
Rick
Rick
L.Deerfield
Amanda Walker <ama...@walker.reston.va.us> wrote:
>Rick Laughlin <oh...@pacbell.net> writes:
>> I'm one of those who would like to watch you not being effected by such
>> things.
>
>Josh--they were the instigators of the most recent experiment. Though
>may I say, Svedeka makes wonderful chocolate truffles. They're
>probably illegal in Utah.
>
>
Heh...she fell asleep.
And those truffles just might be illegal in Utah, even
without the pot...chocolate, coffee, and liquor.
-Sved
PStuart
93
Rick Laughlin writes:
>I'm not sure what you are refering to. If you are talking about
>free-based cocaine, the closest thing I can compare it to is the peak of
>orgasm lasting 3-5 minutes. That's the first hit in a session only.
>After that it gets weaker and weaker.
You must have very annoying orgasms... But of course everyone reacts
differently to both drugs and orgasms. I tried freebase after years of
experimenting with psychedelics... Cocaine of any kind, IMO, is dull compared
to some of those.
>The most significant mystical experiences I have had have been
>accomplished without drugs.
I've had "significant" mystical experiences with or without, and have found
repeatable methods "both" ways.
>I've only tried nitrous oxide at the dentist
>office.
Dentists mix too much oxygen into the gas... Ask him to give you some straight
up in a balloon to take home, do a few minutes of pranayama, then suck in a
really big hit. ;)
<<I've found more reliable ways (for me personally) to alter
my awareness.>>
Like I said, there are all kinds of reliable ways to do all sorts of things...
Party on...
Amanda Walker
Rick Laughlin <oh...@pacbell.net> writes:
> I'm one of those who would like to watch you not being effected by such
> things.
I don't know that it's that interesting. Ask Svedeka, Annelise, or
Josh--they were the instigators of the most recent experiment. Though
may I say, Svedeka makes wonderful chocolate truffles. They're
probably illegal in Utah.
Amanda Walker
Amanda Walker
sve...@best.com (L.Deerfield) writes:
> Heh...she fell asleep.
After a while, that's true. I think it was jet lag. I woke up well
before you did the next morning. So there :-P.
It was a fun visit. And the Winchester house tour was *very* cool.
Amanda Walker
richard sprigg
G Leake wrote:
> letting go and focus approaching samadhi sitting on my front porch every
> night listening to the wind blow and birds sing and watching my garden
> grow.
>
NO! not another one!
Patrick Schaaf
Amanda Walker <ama...@walker.reston.va.us> writes:
>sve...@best.com (L.Deerfield) writes:
>> Heh...she fell asleep.
>After a while, that's true. I think it was jet lag. I woke up well
>before you did the next morning.
Did you notice something with your dreams that night?
I'd like some of the truffles...
Patrick
Rick Laughlin
I am at times quite easily amused. In truth, it would be little more
than a excuse to sit and talk with you face to face. I'd like that in
any event.
Truffles? I looooooove truffles!
Rick
Rick Laughlin
L.Deerfield wrote:
>
[snip]
>
> And those truffles just might be illegal in Utah, even
> without the pot...chocolate, coffee, and liquor.
>
> -Sved
I may be in your neighborhood around mid-June. Any chance of me getting
some of those truffles?
Rick
Amanda Walker
Nope. Mostly, I noticed that Svedeka has a quite impressive snore :-).
> I'd like some of the truffles...
They were extremely tasty. Chocolate is a very important food group.
Amanda Walker
-ZZ
On Tue, 05 May 1998 07:09:49 -0700, Rick Laughlin <oh...@pacbell.net>
wrote:
>I am at times quite easily amused. In truth, it would be little more
>than a excuse to sit and talk with you face to face. I'd like that in
>any event.
At some point I intend to visit the former colonies and try and meet
up with some of you fine individuals.
Especially the ones who've offered to buy me drinks.
-ZZ
Rick Laughlin
As the designated represetative of the United States of America I would
like to extend an open invitation to visit my country any time you wish.
Be sure to let me know when you are comming. And I tell you what, to
keep you from getting bored by the same ol' same ol' when you get here
I'll let you buy me drinks!
Rick
Rick Laughlin
(dennes longoria) wrote:
[snip]
> maybe both drugs and sex should just be experienced once and that's it.
> ok, move on, you've had the experience, it was nice, you can't reproduce
> the feeling of that first time no matter how hard you try, so just stop
> both drugs and sex. then you won't have a family to worry about losing,
> and you can buy a house with all the money you'll save not doing drugs.
>
> --dennes
> ___________________________________________________________________
Lets' not let this idea get out of hand. We were drawing analogies for
mystical expreince here. I advocate sex and drugs for all. Everyone
knows that. Sheesh! (Rock n' Roll has it's place two but it's no where
near the other two)
8-)>
Rick
-ZZ
On Tue, 05 May 1998 08:36:05 -0700, Rick Laughlin <oh...@pacbell.net>
wrote:
>> At some point I intend to visit the former colonies and try and meet
>> up with some of you fine individuals.
>>
>> Especially the ones who've offered to buy me drinks.
>As the designated represetative of the United States of America I would
>like to extend an open invitation to visit my country any time you wish.
>Be sure to let me know when you are comming. And I tell you what, to
>keep you from getting bored by the same ol' same ol' when you get here
>I'll let you buy me drinks!
I cannot tell you how honoured I am.
-ZZ
Charles Klein
*****
What with the current noise about a possible chocolate shortage, you
chocolaholics should be doing ceaseless workings for bumper cacao crops.
Chuck
Amanda Walker
Charles Klein <charles...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> What with the current noise about a possible chocolate shortage, you
> chocolaholics should be doing ceaseless workings for bumper cacao crops.
I maintain a strategic chocolate reserve for just such occasions.
Amanda Walker
L.Deerfield
Amanda Walker <ama...@walker.reston.va.us> wrote:
>mailer...@bof.de (Patrick Schaaf) writes:
>> Did you notice something with your dreams that night?
>
>Nope. Mostly, I noticed that Svedeka has a quite impressive snore :-).
Heh. Ahem. Yes. I have been told this. Sometimes I wake myself
up with it.
>
>> I'd like some of the truffles...
>
>They were extremely tasty. Chocolate is a very important food group.
>
The recipie was in Joy of Cooking (older version)--sub O'Carolan's for the
cream, and increase the chocolate (I used Ghirardelli bittersweet) a bit...
rolled in a combo of finely ground coffee, powdered sugar, and cinnamon.
-Sved
L.Deerfield
Rick Laughlin <oh...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>L.Deerfield wrote:
>>
>[snip]
>>
>> And those truffles just might be illegal in Utah, even
>> without the pot...chocolate, coffee, and liquor.
>>
>
>some of those truffles?
>
-Sved
sy.
On Tue, 05 May 1998 14:32:33 GMT, -z...@mailcity.SPAMAWAY.com (-ZZ)
wrote:
>On Tue, 05 May 1998 07:09:49 -0700, Rick Laughlin <oh...@pacbell.net>
>wrote:
>
>>I am at times quite easily amused. In truth, it would be little more
>>than a excuse to sit and talk with you face to face. I'd like that in
>>any event.
>
>At some point I intend to visit the former colonies and try and meet
>up with some of you fine individuals.
>
>Especially the ones who've offered to buy me drinks.
heh. If you're ever on safari ZZ I'd like to buy you a drink.
Sy.
-ZZ
On Wed, 06 May 1998 04:30:50 GMT, s...@icon.co.za (sy.) wrote:
>heh. If you're ever on safari ZZ I'd like to buy you a drink.
.za = South Africa?
I have relatives there.
It's not out of the question.
Where abouts do you buy people drinks?
-ZZ
sy.
On Wed, 06 May 1998 08:10:12 GMT, -z...@mailcity.SPAMAWAY.com (-ZZ)
wrote:
>On Wed, 06 May 1998 04:30:50 GMT, s...@icon.co.za (sy.) wrote:
>
>>heh. If you're ever on safari ZZ I'd like to buy you a drink.
>
>.za = South Africa?
yes
>I have relatives there.
My I congratulate you on the sensible gene's in your family.
>It's not out of the question.
>
>Where abouts do you buy people drinks?
I live in Durban, but am often in Johannesburg and occasionally in
Cape Town.
sy.