The Cult
surge
rock again." - Ian Astbury on stage in Austin, Texas, March 17, 2001
Darkness and light; peace and war; sex and transcendence. These are
the corner stones of The Cult. Formed in England in 1983 by singer Ian
Astbury and guitarist Billy Duffy, the band has traversed the highs
and lows, cut a wide mark, and have again harnessed the white-hot war
horse of rock and roll.
"BEYOND GOOD AND EVIL," their first effort in 7 years, is a mission
statement of unfinished business. "When we came together again we
realized we weren't done," Astbury says. "I feel like we were exiled
to the mountain and now that things aren't working we've been called
back." He's talking about rock music - not rap-rock, not metal, but
pure, unadulterated rock and roll; a specimen last seen in Seattle in
the mid-Nineties. "This ain't nostalgic," Astbury says. "This is a
spiritual holy war. If you're going on a stage to perform, you've got
to be fucking good in contemporary terms." The lucky who saw the
band's '99 reunion tour - the blistering chemistry of a crack team
together again - can attest to that. "The energy in those rooms was
amazing," Astbury recalls. "I thought we were the best we've ever
been."
It was the first time Duffy, Astbury, and drummer Matt Sorum had been
the Cult since 1992. And it wasn't just déją vu. "When we finished I
said 'Right, now let's get on with the next phase,'" Duffy says. "The
biggest question in my mind was whether or not we could work together
again. I didn't know where he might be musically." The Cult always
mixed tradition and experimentation, the earthly and spiritual - it's
a yin-yang dichotomy personified by Duffy and Astbury. "Last night is
the perfect example," Astbury said recently at South by Southwest.
"After we played, Billy went to a titty bar and I went to see Mogwai."
After some readjustment time, Duffy and Astbury were writing again,
amassing 60 sonic ideas to be sorted through by legendary producer Bob
Rock. "At first we shyed away from using Bob because we thought it was
too obvious," Duffy says. "We didn't want to do anything the easy way.
But we realized no one else can find the common ground between Ian and
I like Bob can."
The result is as raw as "ELECTRIC," as polished as "SONIC TEMPLE" and
every inch as soulful as "LOVE." "The new album's like a cross between
Cream, Motorhead and Bauhaus," Duffy says. "Heavy and melodic, hence
Cream. A bit straight ahead, hence Motorhead. Dark and early 80s,
hence Bauhaus. And a bit of us thrown in as well." This isn't a
retread. There are plenty of those coming this year. This is brand new
Cult music. The band that rocks your body, your soul, and if you're
listening, your mind.
Astbury has long been interested in native peoples, the decay of
society, and the need for spiritual evolution. It began in earnest as
the band approached the zenith of their material success. "We were
touring in South Dakota, opening for Metallica in '89," he recalls. "I
was watching this Indian guy fixing his truck. He sort of nodded to me
and asked if I was from the Res. I said, 'No, I'm English.' He said,
'You want to come up to my house to have something to eat?'" Astbury
did and was inspired forever. "We talked about everything: music,
politics, sexuality, spirituality. He was going to college to study
resource management so he could purify his tribe's drinking water. He
asked me what I was doing in my community. The answer was nothing.
When I was first in the band I thought the power of music would change
the world. It won't."
That night after the show, Astbury began scribbling in his journal,
dreaming up a tour to bring together the best of his generation, in
the name of aiding Native Americans. It was called The Gathering of
the Tribes. It was to feature everyone from Public Enemy to
Soundgarden and like everything The Cult has done, it laid groundwork
others soon capitalized on. "There was a bit of an agency war over the
bands who wanted to be involved," Astbury says. "Oddly enough, the guy
who wouldn't let his groups be on our bill was at the forefront of
Lollapalooza when it came soon afterwards."
Astbury has long relished community. As a starving punk on the streets
of Northern England, he needed it. "Nobody asked me what my religion
was, what my family was about, what my race was," he says. "I was a
punk, I was one of them, and that was it. We stole food for each
other, we looked for shelter for each other. We shared whatever we
had. I loved that camaraderie: when you're together with a group of
people and you look in their eyes and you know you're all having the
same experience."
Growing up, Astbury took his cues from Crass, a late 70s English punk
band. "I just re-read Sibilith, by Penny Rimbaud, the drummer for
Crass," he says. "They lived a communal lifestyle and their motto was
anarchy, love, and peace. It was powerful, sexual music. They looked
like a more punk Velvet Underground. And after the show they would
share whatever they had - food, clothes, everything - with the
audience, then they'd move on. They were a big influence on me."
Astbury's recent travels in Nepal and Tibet opened the singer's eyes
even further. "I've seen a soldier take a rifle butt to the back of an
old man's head to move him along," Astbury says. "I saw a guy dragged
out of his shop and dumped into the back of a truck. But it's
everywhere in the world. If you have any kind of resistance to the
mainstream you'll quickly be shut down - either violently or you will
be absorbed by society. There's a strange, oily feeling in the world
right now. You can't quite get a grip on it, it's intangible. I think
it's due to a lack of spirituality. Rock right now is full of crying,
complaining and aggression. There's a lot of 'fuck you's' and 'I'm not
going to do what you tell me.' But what are you going to do? No one's
offering a solution. I'll offer one: read books. Find your role
model."
The Cult are a classic, massive rock and roll band - and at the same
time they're not. The music is a safe haven, a quiet, introspective
moment and a bombastic missile all at once. "We're here to say that
it's all not good, mate." Duffy says. Say it loud and say it proud.
June, 2001
Renfield
You are off topic for alt.magick
-Geist
Fraeel
>Astbury has long been interested in native peoples
Yeah, everybody think that a good idea, until you consider that they shot one
antoher with bows and arrows, and were not averse to butchery, etc. and were
pretty good at surviving at odds with their environment, if you get my drift.
Compared to which, the white man is a pink piggy.
William Tucker
their cohorts of ecology....
they prayed before and after the hunt and took direct responsibility
for life taking.....
not all Native Americans were just meat eaters, the Hopi, Navajo,
Cherokee, many others were primarily farmers....hence their worship
of the Corn Maiden....
I think it was Satsatchewan that when he died corn and pumpkin
grew from his body....
Who was it that said "The Earth does not belong to us, we borrow it
from our children"
A lot of the information and artifacts that depict Native Americans
as sophisticated have been lost or misunderstood.....I have some
pictures are so beautiful they would make you cry to know that these
peoples had their cultures nearly erased.....Northwest Native Americans
have very strong Art......
Yesterday I danced Sun Maiden.......Kachina....
Wm
"Fraeel" <fra...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020212101131...@mb-cj.aol.com...
William Edward Woody
"William Tucker" <wmft...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> one major difference is they respected their relationship with
> their cohorts of ecology....
No. Most native americans I know (and I know a whole shit-pot of 'em,
being native american myself) respect the earth in the same way you
respect the house you live in or the air you breath--not because of some
strange higher spiritual love but because it's rather gross to take a
dump in the middle of your living room and leave it there to fester for
a few days.
But this does not make Native American culture (in all of it's many and
varied forms) synomymous with the echological movement which attempted
to co-op NA culture via a philosophy of "european primitivism" in an
attempt to paint anything more sophisticated than a mud hut as the root
of all ecological evil.
> they prayed before and after the hunt and took direct responsibility
> for life taking.....
Not always, though in general many tribes did offer prayers.
On the other hand, one of my great uncles, a Salinan fisher at the turn
of the century, would have loved nothing greater than to exterminate all
of the sea lions which were fucking up his ability to put food on his
table. (The damned things would kill the fish he was going after, gut
them for their eggs, and toss the rest of the fish into the water to
rot. What made this especially a problem is that not only would these
damned sea lions ruin the river where they dumped the carcassas, and
waste perfectly good fish, but the Federal Government blaimed my great
uncle and his brothers and assorted friends and relatives for the
destruction caused by the sea lions.)
The relationship between Native Americans and the environment in which
they lived was often a hell of a lot more complex than painted by many
idealistic white "ecologists" would have you think.
> not all Native Americans were just meat eaters, the Hopi, Navajo,
> Cherokee, many others were primarily farmers....hence their worship
> of the Corn Maiden....
Most Native Americans were hunter/gatherers, using both primitive
farming techniques and hunting techniques to augment their diets.
As to the "Corn Maiden", that's a new one to me. I've never heard of any
"Corn Maiden" stories, nor of any worship, and I'm pretty versed both
from an anthroplogical point of view and from a personal point of view.
(Though I will be the first to admit not being very familiar with many
Hopi stories.) This 'Corn Maiden' strikes me as a White construct--and
the idea of "worshipping" strikes me as incompatable with the mode of
spiritual advance that most Indians I am aware of use: story telling,
some guided meditation stuff, various 'rites of passage' which were
offered primarly to the undefinable 'great spirit', vision quests and
the like.
> Who was it that said "The Earth does not belong to us, we borrow it
> from our children"
That was written by a 70's screen writer who rewrote Chief Seattle's
speech in order to turn a sorrowful story of the fall of the Washington
Indian tribe's stewardship of the land and forced turning over of that
land to the Federal Government into a tale and warning of ecological
stewardship.
In short, it's bullshit to attribute this line to a Native American.
Further, why any white person would *want* to attribute this to a Native
American is beyond me. Meaning that there is no need as far as I can
tell to reattribute a rather meaningful ecological movement to Indians
in order to give it some sort of "deeper spiritual meaning." It's
bunk--not only does it cause you to put Indians on a pedistal we cannot
live up to and frankly do not want, but it also denies the possiblity
that non-native americans may also love the earth. It also relegates all
of white society to a bunch of blond-haired polka playing squares with
no appreciation of anything but dutch chocolate and warm beer.
> A lot of the information and artifacts that depict Native Americans
> as sophisticated have been lost or misunderstood.....I have some
> pictures are so beautiful they would make you cry to know that these
> peoples had their cultures nearly erased.....Northwest Native Americans
> have very strong Art......
>
> Yesterday I danced Sun Maiden.......Kachina....
Aaarrrrggghhh....
--
William Edward Woody - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~woody
In Phase Consulting - http://www.inphase.org
The PandaWave - http://www.pandawave.com
William Tucker
"William Edward Woody" <wo...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote in message
news:woody-F7FA7C....@newssvr14-ext.news.prodigy.com...
> 'Cuse me while I ruin your day...
don't worry...perhaps I'll improve yours...
>
> "William Tucker" <wmft...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > one major difference is they respected their relationship with
> > their cohorts of ecology....
my implication is system of life forms...period..
the spirituallity is mine....or I should say coming through me,
it belongs to the orignal spirit workers that developed it...
and to the land....
> No. Most native americans I know (and I know a whole shit-pot of 'em,
> being native american myself)
> respect the earth in the same way you
> respect the house you live in or the air you breath--not because of some
we in the business call this "don't shit in the nest" I concur, it is the
essence of the way that I like to do business......
> strange higher spiritual love but because it's rather gross to take a
> dump in the middle of your living room and leave it there to fester for
> a few days.
I don't attribute some higher spirituallity to Native Americans, what
I do attribute to their ancestors is a sense of fitting in with the land....
that a lot, but not all seem to have moved away from, Walt Whitman,
Jack Lord, and some others are exceptions to this...and there's certainly
an upsurge in visiting parks and outdoor sports that seems to say that
other people are enjoying the outdoors...so would the commercials....
The old saying about the only thing an Indian didn't use of the buffalo
was nothing is sort of an example of this.....
> But this does not make Native American culture (in all of it's many and
> varied forms) synomymous with the echological movement which attempted
your words, your thougts, your projections...you don't know me
> to co-op NA culture via a philosophy of "european primitivism" in an
> attempt to paint anything more sophisticated than a mud hut as the root
> of all ecological evil.
I think that working within the system is a smart thing....
what do you think...
>
>
> > they prayed before and after the hunt and took direct responsibility
> > for life taking.....
>
> Not always, though in general many tribes did offer prayers.
Not all Indians were spiritual leaders in the tribe....just like not
all people in a community are priests...
> On the other hand, one of my great uncles, a Salinan fisher at the turn
> of the century, would have loved nothing greater than to exterminate all
> of the sea lions which were fucking up his ability to put food on his
> table. (The damned things would kill the fish he was going after, gut
> them for their eggs, and toss the rest of the fish into the water to
> rot. What made this especially a problem is that not only would these
> damned sea lions ruin the river where they dumped the carcassas, and
> waste perfectly good fish, but the Federal Government blaimed my great
> uncle and his brothers and assorted friends and relatives for the
> destruction caused by the sea lions.)
So that's around Monterey you're talking about?
My Indian relatives came from the Northern Arkansas area.
>
> The relationship between Native Americans and the environment in which
> they lived was often a hell of a lot more complex than painted by many
> idealistic white "ecologists" would have you think.
I don't know what you're talking about.....what ecologists...
and what are their theories...
> > not all Native Americans were just meat eaters, the Hopi, Navajo,
> > Cherokee, many others were primarily farmers....hence their worship
> > of the Corn Maiden....
> Most Native Americans were hunter/gatherers, using both primitive
> farming techniques and hunting techniques to augment their diets.
The Hopi legend speaks of when the Navajo came across during one
of the Ice Ages and the Hopi...."peaceful people" taught them how to
survive in the land....Book of the Hopi...translated to anthropologist
Frank Waters from Hopi elders....look it up. They were farmers,
villages look a lot like the Zuni, Anazazi and Tibetans, and Indians
of the South American mountains....their legend claims that they are
those people....they have amongst their tribal names the Parrot clan..
Mound building, Kiva, sand paintings are a few of their favorite things.
right, I remember someone telling me that a lot of the Southern California
tribes ate a lot of acorns, and actually burned the undergrowth to
facilitate
some of the nut gathering....
My dad talked a little bit about eating acorns and that you could wash the
tannic acid out of the oak acorns and eat them, but hickory nuts you could
eat just fine...
> As to the "Corn Maiden", that's a new one to me.
look it up, I had a vision of a Zuni piece that I owned about
20 years ago when I was working with Sun energy yesterday..
>I've never heard of any
> "Corn Maiden" stories, nor of any worship, and I'm pretty versed both
> from an anthroplogical point of view and from a personal point of view.
> (Though I will be the first to admit not being very familiar with many
> Hopi stories.) This 'Corn Maiden' strikes me as a White construct--and
ever heard of Indian corn?
> the idea of "worshipping" strikes me as incompatable with the mode of
> spiritual advance that most Indians I am aware of use: story telling,
> some guided meditation stuff, various 'rites of passage' which were
> offered primarly to the undefinable 'great spirit', vision quests and
> the like.
Never done any of that stuff....I was approached by spirits to show me
some Indian stuff at a museum....I thought the whole sweat lodge scene
was not my style.....I had a friend that knew Sun Bear, he did some of
that stuff including a sun dance..
>
> > Who was it that said "The Earth does not belong to us, we borrow it
> > from our children"
>
> That was written by a 70's screen writer who rewrote Chief Seattle's
> speech in order to turn a sorrowful story of the fall of the Washington
> Indian tribe's stewardship of the land and forced turning over of that
> land to the Federal Government into a tale and warning of ecological
> stewardship.
I don't know if this is true or not, I took it for truth, and it is the
truth from a reality stand point who said it is irrelevant...
> In short, it's bullshit to attribute this line to a Native American.
whatever.....who cares it still works...as an insght...
>
> Further, why any white person would *want* to attribute this to a Native
> American is beyond me.
apparently...
> Meaning that there is no need as far as I can
> tell to reattribute a rather meaningful ecological movement to Indians
> in order to give it some sort of "deeper spiritual meaning."
My position is that some stuff is very important, I do herbal stuff as
well as energy healing, some NA stuff is very close to me, I meant
what I said about the pictures in the books that I have, and the stuff
in the Portland Art Museum also include some Haida work, Tlinglit work
and Southern California gift baskets (very tiny baskets made from, fiber
and bird feathers) that would knock your hat off....not everyone is a
healer or interested in it, I am as well as art......
As a boy I went on learning walks with my Dad quite a bit, and he pointed
out the relationships of things to me, he still does.....what do you think
that's
about..........his mother walked him and told him the names of plants and
things.....I pointed out that that was a little strange that a woman would
know
those things...that her family must have had some mediicine lore/plant
lore stuff...
my grandmother saw Geronimo shackeled to a pony in Oklahoma in the
early 1900's being taken back to the reservation for the last time...
I know a few things about that period...
> It's
> bunk--not only does it cause you to put Indians on a pedistal we cannot
> live up to and frankly do not want, but it also denies the possiblity
> that non-native americans may also love the earth. It also relegates all
> of white society to a bunch of blond-haired polka playing squares with
> no appreciation of anything but dutch chocolate and warm beer.
I don't know about you but there was plenty of rascism relating to
Native Americans when I was growing up, and my father didn't
admit it until he was in his late 50's.
I agree stereotypes are not the best of tools.....
that you've read me before there can be no doubt eh?!
>
> > A lot of the information and artifacts that depict Native Americans
> > as sophisticated have been lost or misunderstood.....I have some
> > pictures are so beautiful they would make you cry to know that these
> > peoples had their cultures nearly erased.....Northwest Native Americans
> > have very strong Art......
Went to the Portland Art Musem a couple of months ago and saw some
stuff that would knock your eyes out....
> > Yesterday I danced Sun Maiden.......Kachina....
Sorry that's what came up as I was doing sun work, I had
bought a piece about a month ago, that was "The Sun Maiden"
with a blue dot on the solar plexus and the male was blue with
a white dot.....I know you know everything about Native American
because you are one, but you might be mistaken about a few things,
my specialty is world religions......Native American is just a small
piece, but an important piece, I was approached by spirit for some
reason.....several different tribes......spirit guides...you should have
seen the Ainu exhibit at the Smithsonian four years ago....that's the
indigenous population of Japan....I found out they were heavily
influenced by the Haida of the Queen Charlotte Ishands in BC
during the 40's and 50's and they have some really beautiful carvings
and fiber work....if you get a chance go to the Quintana gallery
in Portand, Oregon for some really nice, museum quality artwork,
they work directly with the artists....
> Aaarrrrggghhh....
>
cheers....
Wm
William Edward Woody
> > But this does not make Native American culture (in all of it's many and
> > varied forms) synomymous with the echological movement which attempted
>
> your words, your thougts, your projections...you don't know me
I don't know you, but the point still stands.
> > to co-op NA culture via a philosophy of "european primitivism" in an
> > attempt to paint anything more sophisticated than a mud hut as the root
> > of all ecological evil.
>
> I think that working within the system is a smart thing....
>
> what do you think...
I think co-opting NA culture in order to give ecological conservationism
(a white invention, by the way) and to give european primitivism (a
philosophy which basically denounces technology in favor of a more
'primitive' lifestyle) a more "spiritual" foundation is insulting to
both the whites who invented it and the native americans whose cultures
are being co-opted, misunderstood, and wiped out.
> > > they prayed before and after the hunt and took direct responsibility
> > > for life taking.....
> >
> > Not always, though in general many tribes did offer prayers.
>
> Not all Indians were spiritual leaders in the tribe....just like not
> all people in a community are priests...
In fact, here in California, "spiritual leaders" or shamans were
generally killed. :-)
However, that was not my point. My point was that the idea that
*anything*, including offering prayers for the fallen prey in order to
assure a good hunt in the future, cannot be considered "universal"
across all tribes. I'm talking tribes here, not individuals.
Further, my understanding is that the reason why those prayers were
offered varied, but by and large were so that future hunts would also be
prosperous. That is, it was an attempt to appease the fallen spirits so
they didn't get pissed off and take the livestock somewhere else.
> So that's around Monterey you're talking about?
Yep. And you're the first person to actually look up my tribe. (Thanks.)
> > the idea of "worshipping" strikes me as incompatable with the mode of
> > spiritual advance that most Indians I am aware of use: story telling,
> > some guided meditation stuff, various 'rites of passage' which were
> > offered primarly to the undefinable 'great spirit', vision quests and
> > the like.
>
> Never done any of that stuff....I was approached by spirits to show me
> some Indian stuff at a museum....I thought the whole sweat lodge scene
> was not my style.....I had a friend that knew Sun Bear, he did some of
> that stuff including a sun dance..
Ugh.
Look, I appreciate that you find these things work for you. I really do.
However, you just can't read a bunch of Lynn Andrews, make your own
funky little triangular-shaped bits of art with sticks lying around the
back yard, and hope that your ancient "Indian Princess" talks to you in
a dream--and think you're somehow tuned into the Native American
spiritual frequency.
Me, I'm Indian. I just don't have some damned relatives nine generations
back on my father's mother's mother's (etc) side. I'm part of a tribe
which is right now working with the Bureau of Indian Affairs to gain
recognition. Got a California Indian roll number. (69065) Hell, the BIA
paid for part of my college education. (Funny story: they had to list me
as a "business major" because the BIA didn't have a classification for
*any* science-related degrees, though they had at least a dozen
classifications for law--including "tribal law" and "international law.")
The problem is everytime someone comes along thinking they've received
some "spiritual guidance" from their "totum animal" (whatever the fuck
that is) and think their native-american inspired vision *is* native
american spiritality--a little bit of my own culture is destroyed.
And really, I couldn't give a damn about it--except that the next time I
have to explain in great detail that yes, I'm Indian; no, I am not a
"steward of the earth" or some great spiritual guru; no, I do not
worship a damned "totum pole" or make dream catchers or whatever the
fuck is the latest Indian-inspired "fad" going about--I swear to God
I'll bash someone's head in with a baseball bat!
> > > Who was it that said "The Earth does not belong to us, we borrow it
> > > from our children"
> >
> > That was written by a 70's screen writer who rewrote Chief Seattle's
> > speech in order to turn a sorrowful story of the fall of the Washington
> > Indian tribe's stewardship of the land and forced turning over of that
> > land to the Federal Government into a tale and warning of ecological
> > stewardship.
>
> I don't know if this is true or not, I took it for truth, and it is the
> truth from a reality stand point who said it is irrelevant...
My bad; I thought the quote was part of the Ted Perry "translation"
(actually, a fictional speech) of Chief Seattle's words. According to a
quick on-line search, the phrase is apparently attributed to an "ancient
Indian proverb." I'm always suspictious of anything attributed to an
"ancient Indian proverb" by the way--especially as the concept of land
ownership, while not unknown to some Indian tribes pre-contact, was not
universal.
(As a rule of thumb, any tribe which was 'stationary' or established
villages, such as those in California, developed land ownership concepts
pre-contact. Any tribe (such as the Sioux) who were primarly nomadic did
not.)
> > Meaning that there is no need as far as I can
> > tell to reattribute a rather meaningful ecological movement to Indians
> > in order to give it some sort of "deeper spiritual meaning."
>
> My position is that some stuff is very important, I do herbal stuff as
> well as energy healing, some NA stuff is very close to me, I meant
> what I said about the pictures in the books that I have, and the stuff
> in the Portland Art Museum also include some Haida work, Tlinglit work
> and Southern California gift baskets (very tiny baskets made from, fiber
> and bird feathers) that would knock your hat off....not everyone is a
> healer or interested in it, I am as well as art......
I'm happy you're happy and inspired and believe all of this is leading
you down your own spiritual path. It's important to me by and large not
to actively fuck with other people's spiritual paths.
However, the thing I was bristling at is what I perceived as yet another
case of native american cultural theft. Every time some white ecological
movement co-opt native american symbolism in order to give their
movement a "spiritual" basis; every time some white writes a book on
"true native american spirituality" as a sort of "instant salvation
cookbook; just add a dream catcher to your dashboard"--it engages in the
very sort of cultural destruction you denounced in your last post.
Oh, and as to those gift baskets; I've got one. Gift of some friends of
my parents. Size of a cantalope; really really cool looking. I've got it
sitting next to an authentic antique Spanish conquestador hat in my
living room. (Call me "ironic." It's important to remember that most
California Indians have at least a little Spanish blood.)
That's about the only benefit of being demonstrably Salinan: it is my
birthright (by California Law) to have Salinan tribal artifacts. Anyone
who is not Salinan may not own or have such artifacts unless they have
the express permission of the Tribal Council.
> my grandmother saw Geronimo shackeled to a pony in Oklahoma in the
> early 1900's being taken back to the reservation for the last time...
> I know a few things about that period...
Right around the same time my grandfather was run off the Salinan tribal
lands at gunpoint by Federal Marshals who were stealing their land.
(California law presumed that the Salinan people were "squatters" as
part of a deal to obscond with Salinan land--a deal brokered in part
with William Hurst, of the Hurst Castle fame, so he could aquire tribal
land in order to build his Castle.)
*shrug* Been there, done that, just another day in my family's life.
> > It's
> > bunk--not only does it cause you to put Indians on a pedistal we cannot
> > live up to and frankly do not want, but it also denies the possiblity
> > that non-native americans may also love the earth. It also relegates all
> > of white society to a bunch of blond-haired polka playing squares with
> > no appreciation of anything but dutch chocolate and warm beer.
>
> I don't know about you but there was plenty of rascism relating to
> Native Americans when I was growing up, and my father didn't
> admit it until he was in his late 50's.
Hey; don't look at me. My mother was not even permitted by law to drink
in Arizona when she was young (laws prohibited Indians from drinking
there up until about 25 years ago). I personally had to deal with a lot
of it.
On the other hand, I'm not sure what's worse: the racism against Indians
in the 70's, or the cultural ignorance and cultural insults being
engaged in by otherwise well-meaning "spirutally minded" white fools who
would otherwise abuse native american symbolism today.
Me; I don't like either. Especially when I'm in the middle of both.
William Tucker
> "William Tucker" <wmft...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > But this does not make Native American culture (in all of it's many
and
> > > varied forms) synomymous with the echological movement which attempted
> >
> > your words, your thougts, your projections...you don't know me
>
> I don't know you, but the point still stands.
You haven't made one....just repeated some general stuff....
>
>
> > > to co-op NA culture via a philosophy of "european primitivism" in an
> > > attempt to paint anything more sophisticated than a mud hut as the
root
> > > of all ecological evil.
> >
> > I think that working within the system is a smart thing....
> >
> > what do you think...
>
> I think co-opting NA culture in order to give ecological conservationism
> (a white invention, by the way) and to give european primitivism (a
> philosophy which basically denounces technology in favor of a more
> 'primitive' lifestyle) a more "spiritual" foundation is insulting to
> both the whites who invented it and the native americans whose cultures
> are being co-opted, misunderstood, and wiped out.
they were already wiped out, misunderstood, and some of the stuff
has been given back to the NA because some anthropologists
preserved it...
> > > > they prayed before and after the hunt and took direct responsibility
> > > > for life taking.....
> > >
> > > Not always, though in general many tribes did offer prayers.
> >
> > Not all Indians were spiritual leaders in the tribe....just like not
> > all people in a community are priests...
>
> In fact, here in California, "spiritual leaders" or shamans were
> generally killed. :-)
I don't see you having any insights of a useful nature...I don't have
any proof of your words....there's a lot of people, that post
under false pretenses...
>
> However, that was not my point. My point was that the idea that
> *anything*, including offering prayers for the fallen prey in order to
> assure a good hunt in the future, cannot be considered "universal"
> across all tribes. I'm talking tribes here, not individuals.
>
> Further, my understanding is that the reason why those prayers were
> offered varied, but by and large were so that future hunts would also be
> prosperous. That is, it was an attempt to appease the fallen spirits so
> they didn't get pissed off and take the livestock somewhere else.
>
> > So that's around Monterey you're talking about?
>
> Yep. And you're the first person to actually look up my tribe. (Thanks.)
I don't have any proof that it's your tribe, I don't feel any thing
vaguely NA coming from you....I see someone that puts some
stuff at the bottom of their post that might make them seem
vaguely "smart" and not showing it in the words you chose or
the argument you present....and I'm not going to put a whole
lot more into this....I don't generally spend my time arguing,
the old wrestling with pigs kinda thing.....
> > > the idea of "worshipping" strikes me as incompatable with the mode of
> > > spiritual advance that most Indians I am aware of use: story telling,
> > > some guided meditation stuff, various 'rites of passage' which were
> > > offered primarly to the undefinable 'great spirit', vision quests and
> > > the like.
> >
> > Never done any of that stuff....I was approached by spirits to show me
> > some Indian stuff at a museum....I thought the whole sweat lodge scene
> > was not my style.....I had a friend that knew Sun Bear, he did some of
> > that stuff including a sun dance..
>
> Ugh.
Look, you don't bum and you don't bring anything to the table...
> Look, I appreciate that you find these things work for you. I really do.
>
> However, you just can't read a bunch of Lynn Andrews, make your own
> funky little triangular-shaped bits of art with sticks lying around the
> back yard, and hope that your ancient "Indian Princess" talks to you in
> a dream--and think you're somehow tuned into the Native American
> spiritual frequency.
Well how can I talk about something you don't have, sorry, being
an Indian as you said doesn't guarantee you spirituality..
thanks for stopping by......I told you the truth, you don't want to
hear it....maybe that's why "your" people aren't approached,
you can't hear.....and certainly you aren't hearing me...
> Me, I'm Indian. I just don't have some damned relatives nine generations
> back on my father's mother's mother's (etc) side. I'm part of a tribe
> which is right now working with the Bureau of Indian Affairs to gain
> recognition. Got a California Indian roll number. (69065) Hell, the BIA
> paid for part of my college education. (Funny story: they had to list me
> as a "business major" because the BIA didn't have a classification for
> *any* science-related degrees, though they had at least a dozen
> classifications for law--including "tribal law" and "international law.")
> The problem is everytime someone comes along thinking they've received
> some "spiritual guidance" from their "totum animal" (whatever the fuck
> that is) and think their native-american inspired vision *is* native
> american spiritality--a little bit of my own culture is destroyed.
what culture....I haven't seen any yet or any semblance of insight
into my post......am I supposed to say I don't feel or see what I
see because you're of the blood.....like genetics gives you some
spiritual gifts.....I don't think so...
> And really, I couldn't give a damn about it--except that the next time I
> have to explain in great detail that yes, I'm Indian; no, I am not a
> "steward of the earth" or some great spiritual guru; no, I do not
> worship a damned "totum pole" or make dream catchers or whatever the
> fuck is the latest Indian-inspired "fad" going about--I swear to God
> I'll bash someone's head in with a baseball bat!
who cares......
The ones I saw were crab apple size....and there was a specific
detail on each one that was rather unique, can you name it?
what did I say here....you want to talk or type your shit on top of
mine......
> Hey; don't look at me. My mother was not even permitted by law to drink
> in Arizona when she was young (laws prohibited Indians from drinking
> there up until about 25 years ago). I personally had to deal with a lot
> of it.
>
> On the other hand, I'm not sure what's worse: the racism against Indians
> in the 70's, or the cultural ignorance and cultural insults being
> engaged in by otherwise well-meaning "spirutally minded" white fools who
> would otherwise abuse native american symbolism today.
>
> Me; I don't like either. Especially when I'm in the middle of both.
thanks for some insight into your condition what I said still stands
you don't know me, and you're shouting so loud you can't hear me
and as I said to other non NA posters I don't see any evidence of
insight into spirituality....sorry that's my take on it......you can post
all you want to, but I'm not in a contest with you and we're definitely
not sharing the same thought space.....want to talk about something
else.....where's the Corn Maiden stuff.....do you always delete the
stuff that shows you shoot from the hip....or my points about my
family background......want to discuss what you know about
the Hopi, or herbology, or something we share? This'll be my
last shared conversation with you I think, unless you bring some
thing besides your personal predjudices to the conversation...
Wm
Tom
"William Tucker" <wmft...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:S1ua8.4544$qt6.3...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> "William Edward Woody" <wo...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote in message
> news:woody-47CF0E....@newssvr21-ext.news.prodigy.com...
> >
> > conservationism (a white invention, by the way) and to give
> > european primitivism (a philosophy which basically
> > denounces technology in favor of a more 'primitive'
> > lifestyle) a more "spiritual" foundation is insulting to both the
> > whites who invented it and the native americans whose cultures
> > are being co-opted, misunderstood, and wiped out.
>
> they were already wiped out, misunderstood, and some of the stuff
> has been given back to the NA because some anthropologists
> preserved it...
Hopelessly lost in his whitebread New Age fictions.
> there's a lot of people, that post
> under false pretenses...
Tucker being one of them. Here he falsely poses as someone who actually
knows something about Native American culture.
William Edward Woody
> "William Edward Woody" <wo...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote in message
> news:woody-47CF0E....@newssvr21-ext.news.prodigy.com...
> > "William Tucker" <wmft...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > > But this does not make Native American culture (in all of it's many
> and
> > > > varied forms) synomymous with the echological movement which attempted
> > >
> > > your words, your thougts, your projections...you don't know me
> >
> > I don't know you, but the point still stands.
>
> You haven't made one....just repeated some general stuff....
I did. "But this does not make Native American culture...synonymous with
the ecological movement...."
Let's see. We have a noun phrase "Native American culture." We have a
verb "synonymous with", and another noun phrase, "ecological movement."
What part of that sentence fragment (which is self-contained, dispite my
abuse of a conjunction that you sliced down the middle) don't you
understand?
> > I think co-opting NA culture in order to give ecological conservationism
> > (a white invention, by the way) and to give european primitivism (a
> > philosophy which basically denounces technology in favor of a more
> > 'primitive' lifestyle) a more "spiritual" foundation is insulting to
> > both the whites who invented it and the native americans whose cultures
> > are being co-opted, misunderstood, and wiped out.
>
> they were already wiped out, misunderstood, and some of the stuff
> has been given back to the NA because some anthropologists
> preserved it...
With all due respect, "wiped out" suggests that Native American culture
was not preserved in any way, shape or form by Native Americans such as
myself.
I hope that's not what you mean to say, because if it is, there are a
few hundred existant tribes and a few thousand Indians who will have a
bone to pick with you.
> > > > > they prayed before and after the hunt and took direct responsibility
> > > > > for life taking.....
> > > >
> > > > Not always, though in general many tribes did offer prayers.
> > >
> > > Not all Indians were spiritual leaders in the tribe....just like not
> > > all people in a community are priests...
> >
> > In fact, here in California, "spiritual leaders" or shamans were
> > generally killed. :-)
>
> I don't see you having any insights of a useful nature...I don't have
> any proof of your words....there's a lot of people, that post
> under false pretenses...
Let's see. You don't believe me, so you think I'm some poser, dispite my
listing my bonifieds in the last post? *sigh*
Well, then, would you believe Heizer, R.F., et.al., "The California
Indians: A Source Book", University of California Press, p 41:
"It may be added that central and southern California are as a unit
in regarding shamanistic power as indifferently beneficient or
malevolent. Whether a given shaman causes death or prevents it is
merely a matter of his inclination. His power is equal in both
directions. Much disease, if not the greater part, is caused by
hostile or spiteful shamans. Witchcraft and the power of the doctor
are therefore indissolubly bound up together. The unsuccessful shaman,
particularly if repeatedly so, was thought to be given prima facie
evidence of evil intent, and earnest attempts to kill him almost
invariably followed. In other cases individuals in a neighboring
group were blamed. This was perhaps the most frequent cause of the
feuds or so-called wars of the central and southern California
tribes."
> > However, that was not my point. My point was that the idea that
> > *anything*, including offering prayers for the fallen prey in order to
> > assure a good hunt in the future, cannot be considered "universal"
> > across all tribes. I'm talking tribes here, not individuals.
> >
> > Further, my understanding is that the reason why those prayers were
> > offered varied, but by and large were so that future hunts would also be
> > prosperous. That is, it was an attempt to appease the fallen spirits so
> > they didn't get pissed off and take the livestock somewhere else.
> >
> > > So that's around Monterey you're talking about?
> >
> > Yep. And you're the first person to actually look up my tribe. (Thanks.)
>
> I don't have any proof that it's your tribe, I don't feel any thing
> vaguely NA coming from you....I see someone that puts some
> stuff at the bottom of their post that might make them seem
> vaguely "smart" and not showing it in the words you chose or
> the argument you present....and I'm not going to put a whole
> lot more into this....I don't generally spend my time arguing,
> the old wrestling with pigs kinda thing.....
You're a fool. Do you want me to fax you my copy of T'epot'aha'l News
which list me amongst the four hundred other of my relatives whose names
are part of the geneology report submitted to the Bureau of Indian
Affairs as part of the application for recognition of the Salinan Tribe?
Or are you going to cling to your whole "white love affair with Native
American spirutality" bullshit and continue to deny the fact that I'm a
"proper" Indian, even after I prove my bonifieds?
If you like you are welcome to write the California Indian Affairs
Bureau in Sacramento and pull my Indian Registration. My roll number is
69065; I'm on the 1968 roll as "William Edward Woody." (My brother
69064; my mother is 69066.)
Frankly, however, you are part of the problem that plagues Native
American affairs. You are a fool who thinks you can bang some drums out
in the wilderness and thinks that you have connected to the "Native
American Spiritual Channel"--and now, when an honest to goodness Injun
replies to you via the news saying "hang on a cotton pickin' second",
you deny the fact that I'm an Indian?
What next: proving your bonifieds by finding some obscure "Indian
Princess" 9 generations in the past in your family tree?
> > > > the idea of "worshipping" strikes me as incompatable with the mode of
> > > > spiritual advance that most Indians I am aware of use: story telling,
> > > > some guided meditation stuff, various 'rites of passage' which were
> > > > offered primarly to the undefinable 'great spirit', vision quests and
> > > > the like.
> > >
> > > Never done any of that stuff....I was approached by spirits to show me
> > > some Indian stuff at a museum....I thought the whole sweat lodge scene
> > > was not my style.....I had a friend that knew Sun Bear, he did some of
> > > that stuff including a sun dance..
> >
> > Ugh.
>
> Look, you don't bum and you don't bring anything to the table...
>
> > Look, I appreciate that you find these things work for you. I really do.
> >
> > However, you just can't read a bunch of Lynn Andrews, make your own
> > funky little triangular-shaped bits of art with sticks lying around the
> > back yard, and hope that your ancient "Indian Princess" talks to you in
> > a dream--and think you're somehow tuned into the Native American
> > spiritual frequency.
>
> Well how can I talk about something you don't have, sorry, being
> an Indian as you said doesn't guarantee you spirituality..
> thanks for stopping by......I told you the truth, you don't want to
> hear it....maybe that's why "your" people aren't approached,
> you can't hear.....and certainly you aren't hearing me...
Let's see. As an Indian I'm not tuned in because I didn't go "oooohhhh!
aaaaahhh!" at yet another white fellow who thinks he has plugged himself
into the "Native American current?"
I'm not here to validate; they do that at parking lots.
I'm here because frankly people like you, while perhaps well meaning,
are part of the cultural destruction that plagues the Native American
tribes nowadays. Here I am, laying down little tidbits such as
"California Indians killed shamans" (which I could back up, by the way,
from something a little more concrete than a fuzzy memory of some
ancient spiritual guide visiting me in a dream), and you're telling me
I'm a poser?
Fuck you.
The more people out there who are like you, the less likely it is that a
true red Injun is going to be able to preserve our (not your) culture.
That's because I gotta spend 10 minutes looking up some fucking book to
quote chapter and verse--not to convince you, but to convince the ten or
twenty other people reading this thread who may think you know what the
fuck you are talking about.
> > Me, I'm Indian. I just don't have some damned relatives nine generations
> > back on my father's mother's mother's (etc) side. I'm part of a tribe
> > which is right now working with the Bureau of Indian Affairs to gain
> > recognition. Got a California Indian roll number. (69065) Hell, the BIA
> > paid for part of my college education. (Funny story: they had to list me
> > as a "business major" because the BIA didn't have a classification for
> > *any* science-related degrees, though they had at least a dozen
> > classifications for law--including "tribal law" and "international law.")
>
> > The problem is everytime someone comes along thinking they've received
> > some "spiritual guidance" from their "totum animal" (whatever the fuck
> > that is) and think their native-american inspired vision *is* native
> > american spiritality--a little bit of my own culture is destroyed.
>
> what culture....I haven't seen any yet or any semblance of insight
> into my post......am I supposed to say I don't feel or see what I
> see because you're of the blood.....like genetics gives you some
> spiritual gifts.....I don't think so...
Genetics doesn't impart jack shit. I've already said that.
Further, Native American culture is not synonymous with the white
ecological and white primitivist spiritual movements which are
attempting to co-opt Native American culture. I've already said that.
Actually, what gives me the right to speak for my people is the fact
that I grew up Native American. Around native americans. Grew up with my
tribe's culture being a part of my life from the day my mother popped me
out of the womb. And the fact that I've spent a lot of time defending
myself against fools like you by reading the anthropologists, by talking
with the anthropologists, by working with the Bureau of Indian Affairs
(which as been in and out of my life in one way or another for most of
my life).
All I can talk about is my own experiences and what I know. I've
*always* asserted this.
And what I am saying is that, in my experience (which is rather
extensive given all of the above) you are a fool if you think you have
plugged yourself into a "Native American current" and know more about
"Native American culture" than I do about mine.
> > And really, I couldn't give a damn about it--except that the next time I
> > have to explain in great detail that yes, I'm Indian; no, I am not a
> > "steward of the earth" or some great spiritual guru; no, I do not
> > worship a damned "totum pole" or make dream catchers or whatever the
> > fuck is the latest Indian-inspired "fad" going about--I swear to God
> > I'll bash someone's head in with a baseball bat!
>
> who cares......
Me and a few thousand other Indians who have been subject to the sort of
cultural destruction that you are at the forefront of?
> > > > Meaning that there is no need as far as I can
> > > > tell to reattribute a rather meaningful ecological movement to Indians
> > > > in order to give it some sort of "deeper spiritual meaning."
> > >
> > > My position is that some stuff is very important, I do herbal stuff as
> > > well as energy healing, some NA stuff is very close to me, I meant
> > > what I said about the pictures in the books that I have, and the stuff
> > > in the Portland Art Museum also include some Haida work, Tlinglit work
> > > and Southern California gift baskets (very tiny baskets made from, fiber
> > > and bird feathers) that would knock your hat off....not everyone is a
> > > healer or interested in it, I am as well as art......
> >
> > I'm happy you're happy and inspired and believe all of this is leading
> > you down your own spiritual path. It's important to me by and large not
> > to actively fuck with other people's spiritual paths.
> >
> > However, the thing I was bristling at is what I perceived as yet another
> > case of native american cultural theft. Every time some white ecological
> > movement co-opt native american symbolism in order to give their
> > movement a "spiritual" basis; every time some white writes a book on
> > "true native american spirituality" as a sort of "instant salvation
> > cookbook; just add a dream catcher to your dashboard"--it engages in the
> > very sort of cultural destruction you denounced in your last post.
> >
> > Oh, and as to those gift baskets; I've got one. Gift of some friends of
> > my parents. Size of a cantalope; really really cool looking.
>
> The ones I saw were crab apple size....and there was a specific
> detail on each one that was rather unique, can you name it?
What, you want me to engage in a fucking riddle now to prove to you that
I'm not lying?
Different tribes had different styles of gift baskets, varying in size.
The one I have is about the size of a cantalop, has two pine cones woven
into it, was made almost entirely of pine needles (and I haven't the
foggiest idea how it was done--the art of pine needle basket weaving is
a dying art, and perhaps only a half-dozen people in California know how
to do it), and has several colored grasses woven into the pattern.
> thanks for some insight into your condition what I said still stands
> you don't know me, and you're shouting so loud you can't hear me
> and as I said to other non NA posters I don't see any evidence of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
So you believe I'm not native american.
> insight into spirituality....sorry that's my take on it......you can post
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You're a fool. I was commenting on the problem with coopting Native
American culture by whites who want to add a "spiritual aura" around
primarly white inventions. That you wanted me to talk about something
else is rather arrogant of you, don't you think?
> all you want to, but I'm not in a contest with you and we're definitely
> not sharing the same thought space.....want to talk about something
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Duh.
> else.....where's the Corn Maiden stuff.....do you always delete the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I have nothing to say about that, as my point has been the one made at
the top of this post and throughout. My one theme has been the co-opting
and destruction of Native American culture by otherwise well-meaning
people who think they have tapped into some sort of "current" and
believe they know more than people who were born into the culture.
--
William Tucker
Wm
ps. I told you I didn't wrestle pigs....have a nice day....
William Edward Woody
> whatever.....
Have a nice day.
> ps. I told you I didn't wrestle pigs....have a nice day....
And I see you don't suffer fools lightly, either. You should work on
that.
IllRefute
>
>> there's a lot of people, that post
>> under false pretenses...
>
>Tucker being one of them. Here he falsely poses as someone who actually
>knows something about Native American culture.
>
>
Do *you* know something about NA culture? I'd like to hear it.
Chose your next incarnation as if your life depends on it
hy
> And really, I couldn't give a damn about it--except that the next time I
> have to explain in great detail that yes, I'm Indian; no, I am not a "steward of the earth"
I don't care if you are Indian or not, you should still respect where
you are from, and what you are, and the land that feeds you and
enables your spirit to swim around in this life.
Tom
"hy" <hybi...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:3C6B9740...@shaw.ca...
I think you may be misunderstanding William. It seems to me that he is
rejecting the New Age stereotype of Indians being somehow more mystically
virtuous in matter of ecology than other people.
William Edward Woody
Oh, dear; not another one.
Let me lay it out for you. If you want to know what most Indians felt
about the earth, just strip your clothes off, go off into the wilderness
with no equipment, and try to survive for a month.
That's pretty much the situtation my grandfather and his brothers were
in, and his parents before him going all the way back to the last ice
age. They were not "spiritually enlightened"--they were <<poor>>, with
few belongings, and highly dependant on the whims of mother nature not
killing them all en-mass through starvation because the rains didn't
come when they should have.
By contrast, we live in a world where water comes out of the tap,
clothes come from the Gap, and food comes from the A&P. We are insulated
from the whims of mother nature--which is (in my opinion) a good thing
in that your entire family won't starve to death because the acorn trees
aren't yielding enough acorns this year. You won't freeze to death
because you couldn't catch a deer and make a blanket to replace the one
that was destroyed in the last flood.
In such a poverty-stricken world, you have tremendous respect for the
earth. You have tremendous respect for the forces about you which could
quite literally kill you slowly at a whim. And you tell stories to your
fellow village mates in order to pass the time and try to understand why
these great, impersonal forces are playing dice with your lives. (Quite
literally: gambling with people's lives by throwing bones resembling
dice was a common theme amongst the stories of the California Indian
tribes.)
Do I respect the earth? Of course, but not in this wierd "warm fuzzy
mother Gaia" bullshit way that is used by most new agers who would rob
Native American culture in order to give some sort of "spiritual aura"
to their mostly white european philosophical system.
Do I respect my cultural heritage? Of course--and I'm insulted you would
presume otherwise. ESPECIALLY given the fact that I have done nothing in
my posts on this topic but soundly reject all attempts by others who
would project their bullshit interpretations on what is *MY* *LIFE*.
Do I resoundly reject the concept of being the "steward of the earth"?
Well, dissect the phrase. What does it mean? By "steward" there is a
presumption that I am *responsible* for the earth--but not in some sort
of local "I won't litter my candy bar wrappers by the highway" sort of
way, but in some sort of global "I am responsible for *your* *behavior*
as well as mine."
That is, by assuming that I am a "steward of the earth", there is an
inherent assumption that it is *my* *responsibility* to be a leader, a
spirtiual guru, a guidance counceler to everyone else, and that
ultimately I am some sort of native american spiritual "gateway", a
"high priest" of the earth by which whites are supposed to find their
enlightenment.
All of that because a bunch of white idiots who a hundred years ago
stole the land and fifty years ago would murder my relatives rather than
talk to them are now feeling all guilty and bad and now want to put me
on a pedistal in part to asuade their guilt, and in part to help them
clean up their own fucking spiritual, moral and ecological mess.
WHAT A CROCK OF CRAP!
And that is why I reject the white new-age concept of being some sort of
"steward of the earth."
You clean up your own fucking mess. I want nothing to do with it.
You want my advise? I'll happily give it--but not as a "steward of the
earth." My advise: don't pee in your 'fridge, don't shit on your stove.
And if you pick a cleansing product, try to pick something that doesn't
cause as much damage as it causes good. (One reason I hated recycling in
the 1980's was that most recycling centers were doing more damage than
good--given that many early recycling centers are now on the EPA
Superfund list, I suspect my early observations were true. The fact that
most recycling centers used that 'Italian-pretending-to-be-a-crying-
Indian' fellow to advocate constructing more EPA Superfund
sites^H^H^H^H^H^H^H recycling centers just irked me to no end.
Oh, and one more thing. By presuming that your projection that all
Indians are "stewards of the earth" and by concluding that I am
rejecting my own heritage and my own ancestors (many of whom I have
telephone numbers for in my PalmPilot) is quite insulting.
And in fact, such a presumption: that by rejecting the white new-age
constructed mantle "steward of the earth" I am rejecting my culture and
my heritage--that attitude of yours contributes to the destruction of
Native American culture.
I get to define my culture, not you.
To presume that you know more about the culture I was born in and raised
in is rather arrogant of you.
Sorry; I don't mean to sound harsh. But this is the exact same sort of
bullshit I have had to live with all my life. And frankly, at the age I
am, I'm not having any of it anymore.
Nightshade & Flat
I can understand your frustration, and have heard it echoed by many other
Native Americans. Yet it makes me wonder, in light of the material being
published about Native American spirituality in an apparent attempt to
spread the wisdom of the tribes, how a white person may follow Native
American spirituality or incorporate aspects of it into their practice
without being seen as "co-opting" or insulting it. I would be interested in
hearing your view on this.
Love & Laughter,
Nightshade
hy
I know, I got that. My point is, it doesn't matter who you are, just
be spiritual. Spiritualism is not defined by race although, it is
sometimes defined by class.
William Edward Woody
> I can understand your frustration, and have heard it echoed by many other
> Native Americans. Yet it makes me wonder, in light of the material being
> published about Native American spirituality in an apparent attempt to
> spread the wisdom of the tribes, how a white person may follow Native
> American spirituality or incorporate aspects of it into their practice
> without being seen as "co-opting" or insulting it. I would be interested in
> hearing your view on this.
That's a tough one.
If you are inspired by what you perceive as "native american"
spirituality and you incorporate these elements into your own practice,
I see no problem with that.
The place where I get ticked off is when someone, having done this sort
of incorporation, believe they are more entitled to speak for Native
American beliefs as people who *are* Native American. The other place I
draw the line is when people presuppose that, based on a handful of
visions or some random "inspirations" they are now the "heirs" of the
"native american path."
However, some Indians I know feel differently. They are insulted if you
even borrow elements of various tribal practices and incorporate it into
your own--as if they have sole license to sit around a campfire and tell
stories. I think this is perhaps a little too proprietary.
Keep in mind that there was no "uniform native american practice."
Belief, practices, stories and even the things done around a camp fire
varied greatly from tribe to tribe.
Take the drum circle, for example. Everytime I see a bunch of white guys
with drums sitting around a campfire claiming their drumming circle is
an expression of "native american" spirituality, I cringe. That's
because, at least here in California, drums were considered rude, noisy
and obnoxious instruments by most California Indian tribes.
I have no problem with a bunch of white guys sitting around a campfire
beating a bunch of drums. Hell; I've done the estatic dance around a
drum circle thing on a number of occassions myself. However, I do have a
problem when they consider themselves "heirs of the native american
path"--especially in light of the fact that their activities were
considered rude and obnixous by the Indians here in California. (And
when I have danced around the fire, I did it as an individual
particating in another group's ritual, and not as someone expressing my
"native american" heritage--any more than the Irish cut oatmeal I ate
this morning for breakfast would be considered a "native american" food,
or the Mazda Miata I drive would be considered a "native american" car.)
In one sense, I believe "native american spirituality" is the
spirituality of those who are native american. Specifically my
spirituality, whatever it is, is "native american spirituality" because
I'm native american--in the sense that my spirituality could also be
labeled "William Woody's spirituality."
I do not mean that the same sort of spirituality cannot be experienced
by someone who does the work unless they happen to be born with the
correct genetics. You go off into the wilderness for a week on a vision
quest with nothing but a bottle of water and some Jimson weed in your
system, and I guarentee you'll experience *something*, be you white,
black, red, yellow or whatever.
But it won't make you native american.
The flipside of that is, because "native american spirituality" is
whatever native americans believe, there is no consistency in belief
between family groups or tribes. There are some common elements--but
that has more to do with shared experience than it does with some
underlying fundamental dogma, connection or spiritual revelation.
It does mean native american spirituality is all over the map--because,
aside from shared experiences of the family group and a few shared
stories, most native americans have no underlying dogma to bind their
spiritual beliefs into any sort of homogenous whole.
And I think this frustrates whites who want to be "allowed into the
inner secret" of "native american spirituality", who are told they can
do whatever they want, but they'll never be Indian. It's not because
those Indians I know do not want to share their wisdom; it's because no
matter how much wisdom you pick up, your skin color will never change.
Just as no matter how much wisdom I pick up from you, I will never
practice "Nightshade spirituality." I may change my own spirituality to
be like yours, but I will never become you in the process.
Tom
"Nightshade & Flat" <and.e...@eatel.net> wrote in message
news:KXVa8.30827$LY3.2...@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
You can't insult a practice.
You can't insult spirituality.
You can insult a person.
As a descendant of European stock, there will always be Native Americans
who will place on you the onus of the misdeeds of other European-descended
people. To them, any attempt to incorporate their traditions and practices
into your way of life is tantamount to eating the corpse of their mother.
Can you see why they might find that objectionable?
Others will be able to detach from all that resentment (justifiable though
it is) and will approve of your attempts to understand and emulate what you
admire in their culture. But they'll tell you that what you get out of it
won't be what a born member of that culture will get out of it. You simply
don't have the same critical experiences (if you prefer nurture over
nature) or the same hardware (if you prefer nature over nurture).
Some Native American groups are willing to accept a European-descended
person as a full member of their tribe. Some in such groups may believe
that this membership means you have access to a kind of spirituality that
mere visitors could never achieve. Others may grant you only a nominal
membership, if any, until you have somehow proved yourself to them, which
may never be possible.
People all think differently. Native Americans are just people, not
mystical noble savages whose spirits flew around the drawing rooms of 19th
Century English spiritualist mediums, dispensing sugar-coated "wisdom".
Don't ever think you can please all of them.
And don't select your magical practices based solely on what you think
won't offend anyone.
hy
Hi Nightshade. I am actually glad to read Woody's posts. One thing
that I hear coming from his posts is not to claim rights to Native
American spirituality. I think that's fine, what I would like to see
is people being spiritual in their own way, and be passionate about
what they are doing and see the effects of what they are doing. If
they like drumming from one group, and talking to stones, or making
medicines from herbs, then do so. But they should be aware that it is
their own cosmology that they are taking it from.
I guess people like to have hero's and people that can inspire their
spirituality and lifestyles.. I can't fault them for it. And I
certainly do think it is a good thing that people want to be
spiritual, even though we all have our faults and do silly things in
the name of spirituality, and acting all cool like.
sorry.. tobacco products smoked around me, I had some good points when
I started to write this earlier today, but I just can't write my
thoughts down the way I want to now.
hy
>
> In article <3C6B9740...@shaw.ca>, hy <hybi...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> > William Edward Woody wrote:
> > > And really, I couldn't give a damn about it--except that the next time I
> > > have to explain in great detail that yes, I'm Indian; no, I am not a
> > > "steward of the earth"
> >
> > I don't care if you are Indian or not, you should still respect where
> > you are from, and what you are, and the land that feeds you and
> > enables your spirit to swim around in this life.
>
> Oh, dear; not another one.
I respect the Earth as a fully functioning unit, which doesn't give a
damn if we live or not. So if you want to live, you better make your
place on Earth clean enough for you to survive. So when you say to me
" Oh, dear; not another one" What exactly do you mean?
Another one, what? Another person who doesn't think that we should use
heavy chemicals, or ge foods, or abuse animals, or use terrain such as
Vegas, for something that it has no capacity to care for in a healthy
matter? Or do you mean, another white person? Oh, that's right, you
can't see me, but is that what you mean? Another fluffy? Another
caring person? Another person who wants to know how you feel so that
she doesn't use you, or treat you badly? Another what exactly?
> Let me lay it out for you. If you want to know what most Indians felt
> about the earth, just strip your clothes off, go off into the wilderness
> with no equipment, and try to survive for a month.
And you say this to me why? Because I wasn't talking about any
"Indians" here. I was talking about you, as a human being. And you
think that I don't think that the earth can freeze me, boil me, bake
me, eat me, kill me? Do I look stupid to you? I respect the Earth as a
fully functioning unit, which doesn't give a damn if we live or not.
So if you want to live, you better make your place on Earth clean
enough for you to survive.
> That's pretty much the situtation my grandfather and his brothers were
> in, and his parents before him going all the way back to the last ice
> age. They were not "spiritually enlightened"--they were <<poor>>, with
> few belongings, and highly dependant on the whims of mother nature not
> killing them all en-mass through starvation because the rains didn't
> come when they should have.
yep and the same for my family as well, where ever they came from.
Except I can't say that my family wasn't spiritually enlightened, they
probably were, and I think it is rather judgmental for you to say that
your family wasn't in their own little way somewhat enlightened. I
mean come on, get with the rest of the world, all over having some
care about being in touch with the divine, what makes your little
world of folk any different? Are you saying they aren't human, or have
any normal human traits, or needs, or wants, or beliefs? That they
weren't curious about life, and their existence, or where food came
from, or the first person? I bet they had all sorts of spiritual
questions, especially when they had time to think, as they sat there
burying their dead, or watching their children get sick, or starve, or
freeze.
> By contrast, we live in a world where water comes out of the tap,
> clothes come from the Gap, and food comes from the A&P. We are insulated
> from the whims of mother nature--which is (in my opinion) a good thing
> in that your entire family won't starve to death because the acorn trees
> aren't yielding enough acorns this year. You won't freeze to death
> because you couldn't catch a deer and make a blanket to replace the one
> that was destroyed in the last flood.
Have you never starved yourself? Gone thirsty? Not had enough money to
live in an apartment? I have. Not for long, but I didn't even need
those lessons to realize what I was not missing out on, by having what
I had. I feel very lucky. Damn, I don't even like drinking water with
chlorine, and I complain.
> In such a poverty-stricken world, you have tremendous respect for the
> earth. You have tremendous respect for the forces about you which could
> quite literally kill you slowly at a whim. And you tell stories to your
> fellow village mates in order to pass the time and try to understand why
> these great, impersonal forces are playing dice with your lives. (Quite
> literally: gambling with people's lives by throwing bones resembling
> dice was a common theme amongst the stories of the California Indian
> tribes.)
So why, can you not understand and have this same respect? That's all
I am asking, suggesting that you should do. Because if we abuse our
lives and land, we wont have what we need to live these high taxing
lives.
> Do I respect the earth? Of course, but not in this wierd "warm fuzzy
> mother Gaia" bullshit way that is used by most new agers who would rob
> Native American culture in order to give some sort of "spiritual aura"
> to their mostly white european philosophical system.
hmm AND what way is that? Mr. oh so judgmental about those that
criticize your nativeness, when really, they are criticizing your
nature as a human being, or maybe don't even give a damn. Who are you
to judge what others find spiritual? A human, just like me? ok, that
makes sense then, if only you can see it like that.
> Do I respect my cultural heritage? Of course--and I'm insulted you would
> presume otherwise. ESPECIALLY given the fact that I have done nothing in
> my posts on this topic but soundly reject all attempts by others who
> would project their bullshit interpretations on what is *MY* *LIFE*.
yet you are insulted that I would presume otherwise.. lets see here,
what was my statement? " I don't care if you are Indian or not, you
should still respect where you are from, and what you are, and the
land that feeds you and enables your spirit to swim around in this
life.".. oh yes right, and.. you see that I am presuming that you
don't respect your heritage where?
Why not be insulted that my dog is looking at you with a funny glare.
Hah, caught you, I don't have a dog, so it can't look at you funny.
But hey, you can still be insulted if you want to be. Even though
there is nothing to be insulted over.
> Do I resoundly reject the concept of being the "steward of the earth"?
>
> Well, dissect the phrase. What does it mean? By "steward" there is a
> presumption that I am *responsible* for the earth--but not in some sort
> of local "I won't litter my candy bar wrappers by the highway" sort of
> way, but in some sort of global "I am responsible for *your* *behavior*
> as well as mine."
no, being a steward means, don't litter, as much as it means, don't
pollute the rivers with toxic waste.
> That is, by assuming that I am a "steward of the earth", there is an
> inherent assumption that it is *my* *responsibility* to be a leader, a
> spirtiual guru, a guidance counceler to everyone else, and that
> ultimately I am some sort of native american spiritual "gateway", a
> "high priest" of the earth by which whites are supposed to find their
> enlightenment.
be responsible for your own backyard, as well as any other yard you
might pollute with your silliness.
> All of that because a bunch of white idiots who a hundred years ago
> stole the land and fifty years ago would murder my relatives rather than
> talk to them are now feeling all guilty and bad and now want to put me
> on a pedistal in part to asuade their guilt, and in part to help them
> clean up their own fucking spiritual, moral and ecological mess.
oh ya, right. hmm. what do they have to do with me? Granted, I do
think that natives should have the right to see their land claims
finally worked out, and the right to be self governing. But I have no
control over the idiots who came here to work this land, native or
white. No relation. Yet, I don't think it was a nice thing that
happened. Is that wrong of me to feel that way? I would like to see
the native culture preserved for all its goodness, and its stories,
and even for who they are, as much as that can ever be preserved. But
you know what, they are evolving, and what you are doesn't normally
mean holding on to the past. But I believe in pictures, and ideas and
history, to remind us of who our relations are, and what they believed
in, and what they liked to do, and live like. Just like I would like
to see pictures of my own family, and hear my own family stories of
the good times, their jokes, and tales of trials and tribulation.
> WHAT A CROCK OF CRAP!
>
> And that is why I reject the white new-age concept of being some sort of
> "steward of the earth."
blah blah blah. you can reject what you want, but you are ranting
because I thought you should be responsible for yourself and the land
that you shit on.
> You clean up your own fucking mess. I want nothing to do with it.
that's the idea, clean up your mess, instill this in your children,
and do what you can to make it a good life for yourself and others, as
if you were in some sort of community that is worth it. And you should
care if I am pissing in the water that you are about to drink.
> You want my advise? I'll happily give it--but not as a "steward of the
> earth." My advise: don't pee in your 'fridge, don't shit on your stove.
Do you need to tell me that? Isn't that common sense?
> And if you pick a cleansing product, try to pick something that doesn't
> cause as much damage as it causes good. (One reason I hated recycling in
> the 1980's was that most recycling centers were doing more damage than
> good--given that many early recycling centers are now on the EPA
> Superfund list, I suspect my early observations were true. The fact that
> most recycling centers used that 'Italian-pretending-to-be-a-crying-
> Indian' fellow to advocate constructing more EPA Superfund
> sites^H^H^H^H^H^H^H recycling centers just irked me to no end.
well, finally, something that you are saying that makes sense.
> Oh, and one more thing. By presuming that your projection that all
> Indians are "stewards of the earth" and by concluding that I am
> rejecting my own heritage and my own ancestors (many of whom I have
> telephone numbers for in my PalmPilot) is quite insulting.
Wow, you should really reread what I wrote, compared to what you think
I wrote. I say we are all responsible for what we do, not just you
because you are an indian, that's a load of crock. We all need to do
our part, and clean up our messes, or try not to make big messes in
the first place.
> And in fact, such a presumption: that by rejecting the white new-age
> constructed mantle "steward of the earth" I am rejecting my culture and
> my heritage--that attitude of yours contributes to the destruction of
> Native American culture.
>
> I get to define my culture, not you.
I am not defining your culture. I have no want to. I don't know you,
or others. I could care less in defining.
bah, you have no idea. Just because you are native, doesn't mean that
your family was any good. They could have been people who sat in their
undies watching tv all day eating chicken, and wiping it on their fat
stomachs for all I know. But they could have been good people too. I
don't care, we all have good family and bad family traits. Reject what
you don't want to be like, and embrace that which you are.
> To presume that you know more about the culture I was born in and raised
> in is rather arrogant of you.
Don't you think its rather arrogant of you, to presume that I am doing
this? All heated and irrational side of you, realized of course, I am
not mad at you, so don't take this as an insult. Sides, you probably
know dick of what your own family was like. I don't think we can ever
know and understand ourselves enough, let alone our families. And
sides, you probably have some white bread in you any ways, some evil
meanies, fighting with your native goodies. (Ok that was a joke, even
if you didn't take it that way). We all have skeletons of some sort.
Stop living them, and just be able to live who you are in a good way.
> Sorry; I don't mean to sound harsh. But this is the exact same sort of
> bullshit I have had to live with all my life. And frankly, at the age I
> am, I'm not having any of it anymore.
Your ears need a good cleaning, where did I say that you need to be a
steward because you are native? I say that we should all keep care of
the land that we need to eat, and live off of, or it wont take care of
us. I don't care if you are Japanese, Russian, or Native, if you don't
keep care of us, through taking care of our land, who will, and why
should anyone else bother to do this for you.
We all have hardships growing up. Neither my parents or my
grandparents or great grandparents had anything to do with your
culture, so grow up and quit blaming everyone else for your
grandparents rough life. They aren't the only defeated culture, or
only culture forced to live a certain way. It was a terrible thing to
do, but I cant do anything for you or especially for your family long
since dead, except maybe honor the land that they grew up on, and that
I am growing up on. I don't owe you anything, yet I like to be good to
people, and do not see any worth in being mean to people, just because
of their gene tone.
So if you want to be rude to me, because you think my spirituality is
fluffy, well that's your perogative. But realize that I am at least
trying to be a good person, and do what I can for others, even if you
don't want to.
William Edward Woody
> William Edward Woody wrote:
> >
> > In article <3C6B9740...@shaw.ca>, hy <hybi...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> >
> > > William Edward Woody wrote:
> > > > And really, I couldn't give a damn about it--except that the next time I
> > > > have to explain in great detail that yes, I'm Indian; no, I am not a
> > > > "steward of the earth"
> > >
> > > I don't care if you are Indian or not, you should still respect where
> > > you are from, and what you are, and the land that feeds you and
> > > enables your spirit to swim around in this life.
> >
> > Oh, dear; not another one.
>
> I respect the Earth as a fully functioning unit, which doesn't give a
> damn if we live or not. So if you want to live, you better make your
> place on Earth clean enough for you to survive. So when you say to me
> " Oh, dear; not another one" What exactly do you mean?
Sorry; I thought you were talking about Indian spirituality. That's what
I ment by "Oh, dear; not another one."
> > That's pretty much the situtation my grandfather and his brothers were
> > in, and his parents before him going all the way back to the last ice
> > age. They were not "spiritually enlightened"--they were <<poor>>, with
> > few belongings, and highly dependant on the whims of mother nature not
> > killing them all en-mass through starvation because the rains didn't
> > come when they should have.
>
> yep and the same for my family as well, where ever they came from.
> Except I can't say that my family wasn't spiritually enlightened, they
> probably were, and I think it is rather judgmental for you to say that
> your family wasn't in their own little way somewhat enlightened. ...
By the quotes around "spiritually enlightened", I was refering to the
various new-age stereotypes of the "spiritually enlightned warrior of
the earth" stuff that is pegged on Native Americans.
It's not that my folks are not spiritually enlightened in their own way;
it's that they are not the new-age earth warriors that some people want
native americans to be.
And, to be honest, my grandfather's generation were a touch xenophobic,
sexist, and obnoxious: a woman was thought, for example, to be primarly
good for two things--cooking and fucking. Of course my grand*mother's*
generation would pat my grandfather's on the head, give them sex when
they didn't have headaches, and go off to do their own thing anyways, in
quiet defiance.
> > In such a poverty-stricken world, you have tremendous respect for the
> > earth. You have tremendous respect for the forces about you which could
> > quite literally kill you slowly at a whim. And you tell stories to your
> > fellow village mates in order to pass the time and try to understand why
> > these great, impersonal forces are playing dice with your lives. (Quite
> > literally: gambling with people's lives by throwing bones resembling
> > dice was a common theme amongst the stories of the California Indian
> > tribes.)
>
> So why, can you not understand and have this same respect? ...
Now who the fuck said I didn't have the same respect? You?
With all due respect, as you were so quick to point out: I do not know
you.
And you do not know me.
My points were about the stereotypes that native americans (and by
extension, I) have had to live with. My points were describing the roots
of that spirituality, in an attempt to pop the new-age stereotypical
bubbles that tend to surround the spirituality.
But to suggest that my discussion implies that I do not have respect for
the earth--fuck you.
> > Do I respect the earth? Of course, but not in this wierd "warm fuzzy
> > mother Gaia" bullshit way that is used by most new agers who would rob
> > Native American culture in order to give some sort of "spiritual aura"
> > to their mostly white european philosophical system.
>
> hmm AND what way is that? Mr. oh so judgmental about those that
> criticize your nativeness, when really, they are criticizing your
> nature as a human being, or maybe don't even give a damn. Who are you
> to judge what others find spiritual? A human, just like me? ok, that
> makes sense then, if only you can see it like that.
I'm sorry I came down on you like a ton of bricks because I misread what
you originally posted, but this is something that is highly personal to
me--and something which really ticks me off no end.
Let me tell you a story.
I was once sitting around a room with a bunch of Wiccans. (Don't ask the
circumstances--long story and irrelevant here.) And they were talking
about the evils of money and living in a capitalist world.
They were under the mis-impression that Indians did not have currency of
any form, and, knowing that I was Salinan, wanted me to tell them how my
ancestors lived, so they could presumably fantasize about living in a
world without money.
Problem was, my ancestors *did* use money. They had money beads (little
shells drilled with a hole to allow one to make a neckless) which were
used to buy all sorts of goods. They had a specialized economy (meaning
different people specialized in making different things, and bought and
sold these things to each other), and they even had land ownership. (One
person would own the right to control hunting, for example, and would
sell the right to hunt on that land.)
When I pointed these things out, I was almost uniformly accused of not
being an Indian, but instead being a liar. (The discussion got rather
heated, to say the least.) I guess they wanted me to paint a picture of
a primitive communism, and not an image of budding capitalists.
This goes sort of to my comment above about a "warm fuzzy mother Gaia",
by the way, in that many people I have heard expousing a Gaia theory
also seem to believe that communism (or at least cooperative living
without money in small primitive family units) goes hand-in-hand with
the notion of an idealized relationship with Gaia. My ancestors, on the
other hand, would resoundly reject such an idea--not because they don't
respect the earth, but because they do not see the Earth in the same way
that Gaia theorists do.
In fact, one of reasons why I get so worked up when someone even hints
at the notion of the new-age concept of native americans is that this
concept is a direct descendant of the earlier concept of the "savage
Indian" which caused the BIA to postulate the "Indian Problem." For
those who do not know, the "Indian Problem" was the problem of
integrating "savage Indians" into the culture that was inevitably
brought by westward expanding white settlers which could not be stopped
by the Federal Government. (This problem was exaserbated after the Civil
War, when a war-torn economy was too devistated to support the
population--and so, uprooted families living in war-destroyed areas of
the East would pack up and move en-mass west to start over.)
The problem was that, at least in California, my pre-contact ancestors
were already living with concepts of specialized manufacturing, money,
land-ownership and all those other concepts which would allowed my
ancestors to integrate nearly seemlessly into the Spanish (and later
American) cultures without having to sacrifice their familial identity
or tribal identities at all.
Meaning there was no "Indian Problem!" My ancestors wanted to change
their money beads with printed currency. They wanted to be able to buy
the latest fashions from Europe. They wanted to learn how to build
houses intead of mud huts. And the one thing that brought my ancestors
into the Catholic Church in droves--dispite the brutal mistreatment they
received at the Spanish Catholics who first settled California--was the
singing. My ancestors *loved* to sing.
But--and this is why I get so incredibly mad--the Bureau of Indian
Affairs and the white settlers to this land decided to treat my
ancestors as "savages" anyways. That is, while the stated purposes of
the BIA's solution to the "Indian Problem" was integration, they instead
supported a program of cultural destruction and personal abuse--dispite
the fact that my ancestors wanted nothing more than to integrate
themselves!
And now, a hundred plus years later, that very same attitude of "Indian
as savages" has mutated into "Indians as ecological warriors" or
"Indians as new-age spiritual gurus." But it's the same underlying
concept ("Indians as savages") which got my ancestors abused, murdered,
our language destroyed, our culture gutted--just now, whites feel it's
in vogue to be "savages." And of course they're asuaging their guilt
over their ancestors murdering mine--without realizing for one fucking
second that their attitude (shown by the wiccans above) was exactly the
same attitude shown by whites for Four Hundred Years which lead to my
ancestor's cultural destruction. As well as the wholesale murder,
enslavement, and humiliation of my ancestors.
Especially when all we ever wanted was (a) to be left alone, and (b) to
be given a chance to continue to do what we have always done, except in
the larger economic playing field.
Do you see the irony here? And can you see why I would be pissed to the
point of irrationality here?
Another story.
A group of Indians a few years ago were given the task of figuring out
how to manage the deer population in a range of land that was ceeded
from the Bureau of Land Management to their tribal government.
New-agers, watching this, expected a "spiritual solution" which would
help the deer recover their range, and recover their numbers. And they
were actually excited (according to one article I read) to see how these
Indians would magickically create a spiritual environment which would
cause Gaia to heal herself in this little neck of the woods.
The solution the Indians came up with, needless to say, was quite
disappointing to these new-agers.
The solution the Indians came up with was to establish a system of
hunting rights and a system of fines which permitted limited hunting of
the older deer (who were beyond reproduction and doe rearing age), while
protecting reproductive-age deer and baby deer. They also allowed (to
the protest of these same new-agers, who I guess expected the Indians to
form a prayer circle instead) limited hunting rights to deer
preditators, including coyotes.
Needless to say, the deer numbers came back rather quickly--much faster
than experts at the Land Managment Bureau ever expected. The solution
was quite ingenious: the fines and licenses allowed the Indians to pay
for the management of the process, while at the same time encouraging
weeding out non-reproductive deer (and freeing up land resources they
would otherwise consume) in favor of younger deer--and, at the same
time, allowing trophy hunters to hunt.
The irony here is that they received heavy protests by otherwise
well-meaning new agers who believed that such a solution was exactly the
sort of capitalist-driven solution which they believed was destroying
the earth. (The fact that it worked was almost irrelevant to the
protesters.)
So my ancestors and their relatives are capitalists. Does that mean that
my ancestors were budding Kenneth Lays (of Enron fame)?
No.
Capitalism only describes a mode of economic interaction between people,
where a token (such as money) is used in order to allow people to
determine the value of the good they exchanged. But just because people
use money to buy things and earn money through working doesn't
necessarly mean we're all going to turn into a bunch of greedy
sons-of-bitches whose sole purpose in life is to acquire (at the
destruction of other people or of the Earth) everything we can to build
a private fifedom.
My ancestors, for example, have a notion (which I will sometimes follow
to the great irritation of my wife :-) that when one has enough, one
should then give back to the community. One way my ancestors did was
that the wealthiest person in a tribe would finance the next great
gathering (pow-wow or party) by buying or aquiring the food for the
feast or what-not.
It was considered a great expression of pride and power to be able to
provide the feast for everyone else at your party. The equivalent thing
today would be the back-yard barbaque: there is nothing happier to me
than to have twenty or thirty people over and feed them a few hundred
bucks worth of BBQ chicken, hamburgers, hotdogs, cole-slaw and potatoes.
And a few cheesecakes, pies and the like.
If everyone doesn't have the opportunity to stuff themselves to illness,
I haven't provided enough.
Of course I don't have a good place for a fire pit in my back yard;
otherwise, I'd start a fire and have people over to dance afterwards, to
work off the calories. Hell; I'd even let people drum, no matter how
irritating it can be to my ears sometimes.
The other aspect is giving back to the community. That is, once you have
enough (that is, you're comfortable, you have food on your table, a roof
over your head, etc), it is incombant on you to give back to the
community in thanks for everything the community has done to get you to
the position you are at. So, for example, as a computer programmer, I
have written a bunch of open source software and given it back to the
programming community that has allowed me to buy a house in Glendale.
(http://www.yaaf.org).
The trick is the concept of community and the concept of "enough", and
respect for both. Money is not inherently evil; in fact, you cannot give
back to others what you do not have yourself.
And to me this is the biggest crime of whites at the turn of the century
seeing my ancestors as "savages"--because my ancestors wanted nothing
more than to create a comfortable environment for themselves so they
could then throw really cool parties. (*grin*)
--
William Edward Woody - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~woody
In Phase Consulting - http://www.inphase.org
The PandaWave - http://www.pandawave.com
All things are spiritual--including the back-yard barbaque...
Peter J. Sanderson
William,
I want to thank you for these insightful and excellent rebuttal posts. It
seems however that no matter how clear your information, you are confronted
with the ignorant ravings of a cultural/spiritual carpetbagger as it were.
I am only saddened by the lack of education and cultural ignorance exhibited
by the other poster - which indeed is why I killfiled them ages ago - even
though the issue doesn't affect me directly.
Alas it is an all too common problem amongst uneducated "spiritual seekers"
to pick and choose will-he-nil-he amongst spiritual flavours of the month.
And alas, with no education about any given path (i.e. the assumption of
native cultural and spiritual uniformity - bleagh) they whip out there
"Medicine Cards(tm)" and Llewellyn's Super Sweetgrass Incense (tm) beat on a
drum (probably a bodhran discarded in their earlier "Celtic Magick phase")
and next thing ya know they are channeling Pocahontas Ghost and discovering
they are the reincarnation of Geronimo.
In a similar situation, imagine some similar individual turning up at an
Irish music session and asking the participants if they are Celtic or know
anything about Celtic or Fairy magick (Duhhhhhhh).
They need less time with the Western Over-romanticized fantasy about other
cultures spiritual traditions and more time educating themselves...of course
as one of my favorite quotes goes, to paraphrase, "they hide secrets like
that from people like them in Books."
Thanks again for your posts
PJS
hy
"Peter J. Sanderson" wrote:
Asmodeus
> Oh, dear; not another one.
Sigh.
You don't get it, do you? You're swimming in crap,
the smelliest of which are the Mother Earth/Gaia
crowd. Their minds are so full of nonsense that
they just can't let go of it. They revel in 19th
century romanticism and the Noble Savage, and
just can't understand why you're not grateful
that these superior white people just love you
to pieces.
Let them hop around and play witch. You're just
wasting your time otherwise.
--
"Favorite animal: steak."
-- Fran Lebowitz
hy
I wrote a long post to you and crashed. So here is the short version.
:)
Darn, how am I going to flame you when you are being reasonable,
dangit, foiled again. :
have a good day.
William Tucker
Wm
ps. I'll make an exception in your case.....
William Edward Woody
> Darn, how am I going to flame you when you are being reasonable,
> dangit, foiled again. :
Phfffffffffft!
Nightshade & Flat
Thank you for taking the time to respond.
The reason I asked the question was not to legitimize my own incorporation
or to pretend that I'm an "heir" to the Native American traditions. Even in
my greenie days, I never had such presumption. Yeah, I was one of those
wide-eyed Wiccans who had "The Medicine Cards", but I also have quite a few
volumes of Native American myths and have spoken to other Native Americans,
both of which cured me pretty quick of considering those cards to represent
anything but one tribe's view on those animals. Nor are those cards the
final word in that tribe's view, not by a long shot. They're pre-packaged
"instant totem generators" for people who don't want to do the work of real
vision quests.
I know quite a few drummers in the pagan community, and none of them claim
to be heirs of the Native American traditions either. It would be rather
ridiculous, considering most of them are beating on African or Celtic drums.
Hardcore drummers are the first to recognize that they are incorporating
various traditions into their own style, and they freely admit it.
You are correct that some (usually the newbies) think they're self-initiates
into Native American culture just by waving their sage bundles in the air
and chanting English translations of tribal song to a slow beat. Most of
them wouldn't know the tribal origin of the chants if you laid down the BIA
map in front of them. I use sage bundles when I can afford it or make them
too, but it's because I like the scent and they last a long time, and also
because sage is cross-culturally known to be cleansing and purifying.
I think the real question is, Why is there this Noo Agey view of Native
Americans as the sainted guardians of the Earth? Maybe it's because of the
image of the weeping chief flashed on the T.V. screen to which so many of us
were exposed during our formative years. Maybe it's because of the
awakening sense of guilt over the way Native Americans have been treated by
white culture. Maybe it's because the Native Americans lived without
electricity and plumbing yet somehow avoided living in cities that had a
trough of shit running through each street. Perhaps it's because, in
general, Native Americans were far more tolerant of other faiths and beliefs
and had nothing comparable to the Spanish Inquisition. And then there was
the flood in the 80s and 90s of books about Native American spirituality,
which gave people the (mistaken) impression that here was a path they could
claim as their own. Never mind that some of these books were written by
white people who only talked to one or two Native Americans and decided to
write a book about it. Not to mention the heavily romanticized "channelled"
books and movies like "Last of the Mohicans" and "Dances With Wolves". The
Noo Agey view is something that has been formed over a long period, and it's
just as harmful to the reality of Native American life and spirituality as
the U.S. Government's earlier attempts to destroy the cultures.
I'm not making excuses. I'm merely speculating about where this trend came
from. As I said, I incorporate some aspects of Native American spirituality
into my personal practice, but would never claim my amalgam as anything
approaching a genuine Native American tradition. Even my husband, who is
one-quarter Native American (though of a tribe not "officially" recognized
by the U.S. Govt.), would never do such a thing. Yet I have met other
Native Americans who took exception to any white person's reference of
"totems" or using anything of Native American origin if Native American
lineage was not certified. That is why I asked.
Love & Laughter,
Nightshade
William Edward Woody
> I think the real question is, Why is there this Noo Agey view of Native
Oh, that one is very easy.
Around the end of the 1800's and early part of the 1900's, several
philosophical movements started in direct reaction to the dehumanization
of the large metropolitan centers (such as London) due to the first fits
of the industrial age.
At that time, the core cities were filthy, smoke and soot-riddled
places, where the mechanization of the industrial age had pretty much
robbed people of their dignity, their humanity and even the air they
breathed.
Several reactionary movements started at that time. The roots of what
would later turn to Marxism came from the first wave of
industrialization. So did Ludditism--people reacted to the horrible
living conditions in which they lived by trying to destroy the machines
which enslaved them.
Around the end of the century, a movement which later evolved to
European Primitivism arose. The idea (which seemed pretty self-evident
at the time) was that the more technologically evolved Man got, the
worse his living condition, and the worse his spiritual and
philosophical position. So clearly, technology was at fault, and clearly
the only way people can get healthy is to revert to a more primitive
state. A complete rejection of modern society was called for.
Call it the ultimate example of trying to revive the "good ol' days."
One quick look at the heart of the great cities such as London (which
were covered in an inch of black grime and soot, where people lived in
impersonal hovels bordering on starvation and poverty, where crime was
sky high) pretty much would convince anyone that cities and technology
and civilization may not have been that great an idea.
And when you compare it to the romatic vision of the primitives that
lived there before (in their clean environment, living in hovels they
made themselves, able to feed themselves by gathering food rather than
existing at the whims of the Kings and Queens of civilization), and the
whole idea of reverting to a primitive state makes a lot of sense.
In the United States, of course the best example of the "primitive
state" was the Indians. But it wouldn't be until after World War II when
people started noticing Indians as anything but filthy savages in the
way of progress.
Offshoots of the European Primitivist movement include the Nudism
movement (which started in Germany), and the core philosophies that were
the predecesor of the NAZI movement. (The "national socialist" part, not
the "let's kill all the Jews" part.)
The European Primitivist movement was somehow tied up with the socialist
"collectivist" movement--after all, primitives don't use money, right?
(wrong), and ultimately it stuck around as a sort of a "reactionary"
philosophy to just about any group who feels repressed, downtrodden by
the "man", or otherwise disenfranchised.
Fast forward to the 1960's, when a bunch of college-age adults were
feeling repressed, downtrodden by the "man" and disenfranchised by the
United State's involvement in the Vietnam War. Around that time, a whole
bunch of philosophies which either languished or were just the idle
ponderings of a handful of college professors were lached onto with a
hell of a lot of gusto.
And around that time, "European Primtivism" met "The Nobel Indian
Savage."
But this time, European Primitivism did not revive itself to answer the
problem of inch-thick soot in London. Instead, it revived itself to
answer for the crimes of the parents of the Boomer generation and their
lack of concern for the Earth or for the peoples of the Earth. That is,
European Primitivism was revived to answer for the sins of the parents.
> ... Maybe it's because of the
> image of the weeping chief flashed on the T.V. screen to which so many of us
> were exposed during our formative years. ...
That image came around in the early 70's, around the time of the first
Earth Day. This was also around the same time that a fictional speech on
ecological conservationism was attributed to Chief Seattle.
These combination of events: the revival of European Primitivsm
(repackaged for the Boomer era), the usage of the Nobel Indian Savage,
and the birth of the ecological conservationism movements all collided.
The "crying Indian?" Turns out he was Italian.
> ... Maybe it's because of the
> awakening sense of guilt over the way Native Americans have been treated by
> white culture. ...
Well, "awaking guilt" doesn't quite explain it.
Call it more a case of the boomer generation using the image of the
mistreatment of Indians at the hands of the whites as a semaphore for
the abuse of of power by the WW II-era adults who were in power then.
The "guilt" is in part an attempt to be part of the croud who "gets it",
rather than part of the croud that is "evil" (the white power elite), or
part of the "sheep."
When some white guy says he's following native american culture due to
"white guilt for all the crimes whites did against Indians", what he
really is saying is "I'm superior." "I get it, and most people are
sheep, and a hanful of white guys who are in power now are evil, so I
ask in the name of my superior knowledge for forgiveness for the evil
white guy's crimes."
> ... Perhaps it's because, in
> general, Native Americans were far more tolerant of other faiths and beliefs
> and had nothing comparable to the Spanish Inquisition. ...
Sit and listen to my grandfather some time talk about whites and you'll
think otherwise... :-) Granted the Spainish Inquisition is something
that only the Spanish, under the guidance of the Holy See, could pull
off.
> ... And then there was
> the flood in the 80s and 90s of books about Native American spirituality,
> which gave people the (mistaken) impression that here was a path they could
> claim as their own. Never mind that some of these books were written by
> white people who only talked to one or two Native Americans and decided to
> write a book about it. ...
Or worse; they're written by some baptist minister who is *still* trying
to reinterpret the spirituality of a particular tribe in terms of a
spiritual awakening to Jesus. (This was a common theme in the late 70's.)
> ... Not to mention the heavily romanticized "channelled"
> books and movies like "Last of the Mohicans" and "Dances With Wolves". The
> Noo Agey view is something that has been formed over a long period, and it's
> just as harmful to the reality of Native American life and spirituality as
> the U.S. Government's earlier attempts to destroy the cultures.
Well, that's my whole problem with all of this. Now my understanding is
that what was portrayed in Dances With Wolves was fairly close--for
those tribes. But there are more tribes in the United States than
Navaho, Iroquis, Sioux, Hopii and Cherokee.
(A fact that was forgotten by a self-styled "Indian Expert" I once met,
a Wiccan married to a rather famous (infamous?) Wiccan author whose name
I will not diclose, who firmly asserted that I knew nothing about my
cultural heritage, as my ancestors were nomads who followed the
migration of the buffalo in California. Ummmmm--there were no buffalo in
California...)
> I'm not making excuses. I'm merely speculating about where this trend came
> from. ...
I strongly believe it's part of a larger cultural movement which is in
large part a reaction to events stemming from the 1960's, which in turn
was formulated at the turn of the century. Just like almost everything
else that goes on this newsgroup--such as Wicca, Thelema, Magick, or any
other new-agey or "alternative" religious expression.
And that's why I don't have a problem with it--just leave us Injuns out
of it... :-)
> ... Yet I have met other
> Native Americans who took exception to any white person's reference of
> "totems" or using anything of Native American origin if Native American
> lineage was not certified. That is why I asked.
I've met the type you're talking about, and to be honest, I don't get
that either--especially given how much "borrowing" went on between
different tribes.
Take the Ghost Dance movement in the 1880's. That was basically using
Christian philosphy to answer a Native problem of getting rid of whites,
and the dance itself had as many roots in Christianity as it did in
Native philosophy. Further, the Ghost Dance can be traced from it's
roots in the middle planes all the way to Southern California, where one
tribe after another incorporated the Christian spiritual message into
their own system and danced the dance hoping to get Jesus Christ/Coyote
to rid the Earth of whites. So here we have a "native" spiritual
movement which crossed tribal boundaries and was as much Christian as it
was "Native American." Lots of borrowing.
(Note: the "Ghost Dance" worked its way north in California in the
1890's, but stopped just short of the Salinan territory, where my
ancestors thought the dance was stupid.)
Granted, I'm likely to roll my eyes when someone pulls out one of those
medicine decks and start babbling about their "totum animal"--but that's
more because they're an idiot than anything else.
Nightshade & Flat
Thank you; that was a good post.
Love & Laughter,
Nightshade
"William Edward Woody" <wo...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote in message
news:woody-C5F213....@newssvr14-ext.news.prodigy.com...
William Edward Woody
> Yes, you're right. The concept did originate even earlier than I suppposed.
> Thank you; that was a good post.
Thanks; hopefully that's enough positive karma that I can revert back to
my normal obnoxious self... :-)
Taliszanna
> I think it was Satsatchewan that when he died corn and pumpkin
> grew from his body....
Sounds like the name of my province: Saskatchewan.
> A lot of the information and artifacts that depict Native Americans
> as sophisticated have been lost or misunderstood.....I have some
> pictures are so beautiful they would make you cry to know that these
> peoples had their cultures nearly erased.....Northwest Native Americans
> have very strong Art......
They certainly do. I used to do volunteer work at Wanuskewin Indian
Heritage Center here in Saskatoon and got the chance to spend as much time
as I liked with the art that was shown in the gallery area.
-Tali
Taliszanna
> "William Tucker" <wmft...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > one major difference is they respected their relationship with
> > their cohorts of ecology....
>
> > not all Native Americans were just meat eaters, the Hopi, Navajo,
> > Cherokee, many others were primarily farmers....hence their worship
> > of the Corn Maiden....
>
> As to the "Corn Maiden", that's a new one to me. I've never heard of any
> "Corn Maiden" stories, nor of any worship, and I'm pretty versed both
> from an anthroplogical point of view and from a personal point of view.
> (Though I will be the first to admit not being very familiar with many
> Hopi stories.) This 'Corn Maiden' strikes me as a White construct--and
> the idea of "worshipping" strikes me as incompatable with the mode of
> spiritual advance that most Indians I am aware of use: story telling,
> some guided meditation stuff, various 'rites of passage' which were
> offered primarly to the undefinable 'great spirit', vision quests and
> the like.
Running a quick 'net search:
1. The Corn-Mother and the Corn-Maiden in Northern Europe; Frazer, Sir
James George.
* Address: http://www.bartleby.com/196/96.html
2. Corn Maiden -> Uti Hiata is the Pawnee name for "Mother Corn," one of
the most important divinities of the Plains Indian culture. Their
neighbors, the Arikara, told the Corn Mother's story in detail.
* Address: http://www.hranajanto.com/GoddessGallery/corn.html
3. Corn Dawn Mother -> She brings the power of life to the people. Food
is a divine gift that joins spirit to earth by putting the fire of the Sun
into the human bodies, making them as the Creator designed them to
be. Thus, the Corn Maiden/Mother is a great sorceress. "Grandmother of
the Sun, Grandmother of the Light. Let us dawn, let the day come."
* Address: http://www.moonlightning.com/sevensisters/corndawnmother.html
4. Marvin Two Feathers McAllexander - Chukchansi Yokuts. [Corn Maiden on
pottery with Rainbow Spirit.]
* Address:
http://www.msstate.edu/Fineart_Online/Gallery/Trophies/marvtwo.htm
5. Kachina art.
* Address: http://www.easterncowboys.com/eastcw17.htm
6. Hopi Corn Maiden Kachina, 1890.
* Address: http://www.hmgrimmer.com/Detailed/6.html
7. Story of Blue Corn Maiden.
* Address: http://www.ilhawaii.net/~stony/996myths.html
* -->
STORY:
Blue Corn Maiden was the prettiest of the corn maiden sisters. The
Pueblo People loved her very much, and loved the delicious blue corn that
she gave them all year long. Not only was Blue Corn Maiden beautiful, but
she also had a kind and gentle spirit. She brought peace and happiness to
the People of the Pueblos.
One cold winter day, Blue Corn Maiden went out to gather
firewood. This was something she would not normally do. While she was out
of her adobe house, she saw Winter Katsina. Winter Katsina is the spirit
who brings the winter to the earth. He wore his blueand-white mask and
blew cold wind with his breath. But when Winter Katsina saw Blue Corn
Maiden, he loved her at once.
He invited her to come to his house, and she had to go with
him. Inside his house, he blocked the windows with ice and the doorway
with snow and made Blue Corn Maiden his prisoner. Although Winter Katsina
was very kind to Blue Corn Maiden and loved her very much, she was sad
living with him. She wanted to go back to her own house and make the blue
corn grow for the People of the Pueblos.
Winter Katsina went out one day to do his duties, and blow cold
wind upon the earth and scatter snow over the mesas and valleys. While he
was gone, Blue Corn Maiden pushed the snow away from the doorway, and went
out of the house to look for the plants and foods she loved to find in
summer. Under all the ice and snow, all she found was four blades of
yucca.
She took the yucca back to Winter Katsina's house and started a
fire. Winter Katsina would not allow her to start a fire when he was in
the house.
When the fire was started, the snow in the doorway fell away and
in walked Summer Katsina. Summer Katsina carried in one hand fresh corn
and in the other many blades of yucca. He came toward his friend Blue Corn
Maiden.
Just then, Winter Katsina stormed through the doorway followed by
a roar of winter wind. Winter Katsina carried an icicle in his right hand,
which he held like a flint knife, and a ball of ice in his left hand,
which he wielded like a hand-ax. It looked like Winter Katsina intended to
fight with Summer Katsina.
As Winter Katsina blew a blast of cold air, Summer Katsina blew a
warm breeze. When Winter Katsina raised his icicle-knife, Summer Katsina
raised his bundle of yucca leaves, and they caught fire. The fire melted
the icicle.
Winter Katsina saw that he needed to make peace with Summer
Katsina, not war. The two sat and talked.
They agreed that Blue Corn Maiden would live among the People of
the Pueblos and give them her blue corn for half of the year, in the time
of Summer Katsina. The other half of the year, Blue Corn Maiden would live
with Winter Katsina and the People would have no corn.
Blue Corn Maiden went away with Summer Katsina, and he was kind to
her. She became the sign of springtime, eagerly awaited by the People.
Sometimes, when spring has come already, Winter Katsina will blow
cold wind suddenly, or scatter snow when it is not the snow time. He does
this just to show how displeased he is to have to give up Blue Corn Maiden
for half of the year.
--><-- --><-- --><-- --><-- --><-- --><-- --><-- --><-- --><--
Sincerely, Her Mighty Erisian Po*piness: Pope Dances-with-Earwax
(a.k.a. Taliszanna WhiteCrow, a.k.a. Jessie Brown)-- everybody's favorite
Sanrio-loving, sushi-chewing, Libran hybrid-Victorian/Edwardwardian/Punk/
Old-school Gothic Discordian Pope and Eclectic witch obsessed with Oranges
as a Theory of Life and Post-Modernism as the dark nasal passage of Big
Brother...
* http://members.tripod.com/talis_white_crow/
* http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ASLR/
* http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FortunePostOThaDay/
~ Carpe noctem; memento mori. ~
Taliszanna
> The problem is everytime someone comes along thinking they've received
> some "spiritual guidance" from their "totum animal" (whatever the fuck
> that is) and think their native-american inspired vision *is* native
> american spiritality--a little bit of my own culture is destroyed.
Native American peoples were not the only ones to have animal spirit
guides and they therefore do not have a monopoly on the concept. As well,
the comment about some ancestor falling 9 generations back-- yeah, if the
last 100% quantum validity point is that far in the past, a person is not
Native. That person is what we call Metis here in Canada. Just the same, I
believe in honouring *all* of my ancestors-- no picking and choosing
allowed. That means Hungarian, British, French, Irish, *and*
Algonkin. The people from the Trailmix Nation have it more complicated
when trying to figure out where they belong, see... and if I happen to
identify more with my Algonkin side after spending time with Algonkin
people, then who is anyone to try to take away the significance of any of
my earlier relatives-- even if that did happen to be 5 or 9 generations
back?
I hear what you are saying about apropriation, but I think that there are
exceptions to the rule. For example: if a given non-Native person can
only learn a certain lesson through Aboriginal teaching and an Elder who
knows the right medicine chooses to take that person under his/her wing,
then I don't think that it is wrong. That person is showing some respect.
If an Indian raised in a stereotypical North American White household was
walking around Hungary and found the cure for some soul sickness in
Hungarian ways, I would not think to turn him or her away. Our pagan
religion was wiped out in the 12th century... but we still have our
dancing, songs, and cooking. So long as that person doesn't try to make
money off of a culture that isn't his/hers or pass it off as something
that it is not, I don't see a problem.
But then, that has never happened to Magyar. Hungary was just ruled for
ages by everyone but themselves...
</rant>
> However, the thing I was bristling at is what I perceived as yet another
> case of native american cultural theft. Every time some white ecological
> movement co-opt native american symbolism in order to give their
> movement a "spiritual" basis; every time some white writes a book on
> "true native american spirituality" as a sort of "instant salvation
> cookbook; just add a dream catcher to your dashboard"--it engages in the
> very sort of cultural destruction you denounced in your last post.
Why assume that everyone today who is waging cultural theft on the
Aboriginal peoples is White and not Hispanic or Black or Chinese? Or
Hungarian (who are sometimes pink-skinned and sometimes dark)?
Maybe white is no longer meaningful as a reference to skin tone when we
are talking about whom is ripping off whom. As I see it, White is the
societal culture of much of the world, not a melanin classification.
> On the other hand, I'm not sure what's worse: the racism against Indians
> in the 70's, or the cultural ignorance and cultural insults being
> engaged in by otherwise well-meaning "spirutally minded" white fools who
> would otherwise abuse native american symbolism today.
>
> Me; I don't like either. Especially when I'm in the middle of both.
Ditto.
William Edward Woody
> Maybe white is no longer meaningful as a reference to skin tone when we
> are talking about whom is ripping off whom. As I see it, White is the
> societal culture of much of the world, not a melanin classification.
That's exactly how my grandfather used the term.
Taliszanna
> I don't have any proof that it's your tribe, I don't feel any thing
> vaguely NA coming from you...
<smile> I'd like to ask you a question, if you don't mind... Do you
think that it could be that your concept of Native is 'off' and you are
expecting something else? That maybe it's possible that you don't have an
accurate picture of Indian people?
Someday, why not try living here in Saskatchewan? This place will show
you (provided you are open to learning), who today's Native people
are (in Western Canada, anyhow). My small city-- Saskatoon-- has been
dubbed (and accurately so, IMO) "The Harlem of Canada" (see: The National
Post), with Caucasian people and Aboriginal people making up most of the
population. Here, even if you're not considered Native, you familiarize
yourself with Native culture because it's always around-- in the
friendship centres, on the sides of buildings on the West side, on fences
in front of certain schools, in the paper and on T.V., at the business
centre in my neighbourhood (it's on in-city rez land), and through
Wanuskewin Indian Heritage Centre, (which is decidedly one of the most
important visiting sites for every elementary school to do business with).
Canadian film is also important when it comes to illustrating today's
typical Aboriginal person. Try to find a copy of "Smoke Signals" if you
can and "Dance Me Outside. Despite that both are based upon books written
by a White guy, I swear I know people just like the characters and the
hijinx are about right for the Canadian prairies.
The unfortunate part of things here, though, is that the
connection between being poor and being Native is so very visually
apparent. If Saskatoon did ~West Side Story~, the crinolin dresses would
be hockey jerseys, flak jackets, miniskirts, and cowboy boots. The dance
numbers would involve hoops, jingle bells, and fancy shawls then fly into
break dance and we switch up the original song numbers with hip-hop and
rap (but always keeping a drum circle going in the background). And half
of my friends would be starring-- if not cuz it would be better than
drinking at The Scuzz all of the time or dealing or stealing, then because
their social worker sucks and their little sister's baby needs food and
diapers. It's not just Red people here who know that Native folks have
got shafted. Everybody can see it... it's just typically easier for
non-Native people who live in closed-gate communities called White Swan
and Regency Lane to come up with cheap phrases like, "They choose to be
poor", "They like hooking when they're 15 and pregnant" and "Who else is
going to pump my gas?" The rest of the non-Native population either was
raised in a racist home and doesn't want to try to understand (just want
to continue blaming taxes on "injuns") or they have friends and co-workers
who are Aboriginal and see that it is everyone's responsibility to try to
level the playing board and to protect traditional Native values,
religion, and art from being buried under today's world (and all that that
implies).
It's hard to not carry Native spirituality, culture and viewpoints with
you even when your eyes are blue, (so to speak), and there is nothing
wrong with that when you respect those values and ideas... but you have to
make sure that you really understand them from the Red Road, not
from Popular Culture's. Make sure that you understand why an archeologist
taking pictures and bringing back to the museum a medicine pouch means
nothing and isn't really preserving an understanding of anything, why
spending a 'day off' fishing and drinkin' and singing country songs at the
side of a road on top of an old chevy is more real to an Indian's life
than paintings of some stoic muscle-y guy in warpaint & buckskins wearing
eaglefeathers and dancing with his pet wolf is...
Ever been to a pow-wow? They're fun. :)
> Well how can I talk about something you don't have, sorry, being
> an Indian as you said doesn't guarantee you spirituality..
> thanks for stopping by......I told you the truth, you don't want to
> hear it....maybe that's why "your" people aren't approached,
> you can't hear.....and certainly you aren't hearing me...
Hey, he said he wasn't going to get in the way of your practises; he was
just speaking his bit about the necessity of being realistic and of making
sure that you are showing respect. Also, it's not as though he claimed to
be a Medicine Man. I didn't see any horn-blowing there. Why get upset?
> what culture....I haven't seen any yet or any semblance of insight
> into my post......am I supposed to say I don't feel or see what I
> see because you're of the blood.....like genetics gives you some
> spiritual gifts.....I don't think so...
Again, what do you define in your mind as being Native culture--
traditional or modern? Just cuz he's not out shooting a deer every
morning doesn't mean he's not Native. America seems to have this
stereotype in it's mind of who Indians are-- and it's dated. Someone says
"Indian" and Custard comes to mind along with 1960's film scenes. Try to
picture being an Aboriginal person in year 2002. There's no tipi or
wigwam; instead there's probably either a crappy apartment, a rez trailer,
or a very modest 40-50 year old house. What's your job (if you can get
one)? Typically: running a video store, mining and construction, peeling
potatos, dealing smack, midnight cleaning crew, raising your babies,
flipping burgers at McDonald's, running with the Bloods, minding the desk
at the LBS off-sale downtown, running things at a bingo hall/bowling
alley/pool house, or whatever else that hardly keeps that roof over yer
head. You've been raised to believe that you will never have the chance
to really get anywhere in life. You occasionally hear mention of some
traditional beliefs, but nobody that you know follows any of that. It's
all legend to you, although the old guy down the block sitting on the
steps of Rod's 2nd-hand Clothing Store says that for a while after they
finally let him leave the Indian school he could still vaguely remember
his mother's face and what it felt like to have long hair, but he never
knew any Cree words so the teachers had to make up reasons to abuse
him. Incidentally, the old guy's name isn't Laughs Like Coyote, Wandering
Hare or Little Foot Dancing, it's Donnie Evan Pardosky and he
panhandles between social assistance cheques.
What would you, as a person under these circumstances, think when you
watch "Davey Crockett", "Gunsmoke" and "Pocahontas"? You'd sit there and
say: "Damn... what a pile of B.S. If only we had it so good!" It'd be
like having African ancestry and watching old Betty Boop where she ends up
being captured by head hunters or where she's dancing around with her
stereotyped African-american friend as if they really are friends and as
if he's not just there because inter-racial social interaction was naughty
back then and this is a cartoon for adults.
I hope you see the picture I'm trying to display for ya. I'm not meaning
any rudeness by all of this-- I'm just trying to pull back the curtain a
little. <shrug> Maybe it's all for nuthin'...
Taliszanna
In which part of any of his posts throughout this thread has he given
evidence that he does not respect his ancestors?
-talis
William Edward Woody
Joe Cosby
computer, typing feverishly;
thunder crashed, William Edward Woody <wo...@alumni.caltech.edu>
laughed madly, then wrote:
>Taliszanna <talis...@chem4823.usask.ca> wrote:
>> Running a quick 'net search:
>
>...
>
>Thanks.
>
;^)
>--
>William Edward Woody - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~woody
> In Phase Consulting - http://www.inphase.org
> The PandaWave - http://www.pandawave.com
--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.home.mindspring.com
Anybody knocks on my door at 3AM is very likely to get ventilated with .40 inch holes
in a creative shot pattern. Maybe a Donald Duck head, for instance.
I would say "thanks for the coffee, friend" afterwards though, assuming it didn't get
spilled in the process. I wonder how you say that in dutch. "Danke urg grug cafee
amigo" or something. I guess if they're dead though you can treat them as
functionally bilingual.
Sig by Kookie Jar 5.98d http://go.to/generalfrenetics/
Taliszanna
> Taliszanna <talis...@chem4823.usask.ca> wrote:
> > Maybe white is no longer meaningful as a reference to skin tone when we
> > are talking about whom is ripping off whom. As I see it, White is the
> > societal culture of much of the world, not a melanin classification.
>
> That's exactly how my grandfather used the term.
The difficulty, I think, is how different ears interpret what is
being said when such things as "White Man's law" and "White Man still
steals from us" are said. Whereas the speaker may mean to indicate an
interpretation such as was used in the far above, the listener may be
hearing talk of actual skin tone... If the listener is Caucasian, s/he
may take offense-- especially if that person has never herself[*]
intentionally oppressed a single Native citizen in her[*] life... If the
listener is non-Native and non-Caucasian, s/he may feel that only
Caucasian people are being recognized as a significant part of society
(which is not good either).
In a third scenario, if the listener is Native and does not
understand how the speaker means it when referring to "White Man" and
takes the reference as promotion of anti-Caucasian racism), the listener
may feel inclined to nod in agreement at going along with the prejudice--
especially if the listener is young, poor, and already surrounded by
anti-Caucasian racism... It is easy to be hateful when one is impov-
erished. What only makes this situation worse is if the speaker is an
Elder. Elders are the ones that are looked to for guidance and decision-
making. If an Elder seems to okay discrimination against "White Man", it
only adds to the road of damage. What healing is in that? Sadly, our
Native youth fall into racism quickly here and the response from many
non-Native youths is more anti-Native racism. ~sigh~ It goes on and
on... Which is why I am so thankful for the amount of community support
that my city carries for Native arts and cultural programs-- it provides a
positive look at our Native people when the anger is on. Unfortunately,
the police take us all two four steps back each time that we find another
Aboriginal man frozen to death outside of town, dumped off by the cops
when he was picked up drunk and told to walk back. :( Just when things
were a little better between inner-city kids and the cops, we discover
that the messengers of the law are becoming hunters. It's only heated
everything up out here for the worse. Makes it hard for the kids who want
to be cops someday because they have to consider that they might be the
only good cop they'll be sure of by then.
William Tucker
"Taliszanna" <talis...@chem4823.usask.ca> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.21.02021...@chem4823.usask.ca...
> On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, William Tucker wrote:
>
> > I don't have any proof that it's your tribe, I don't feel any thing
> > vaguely NA coming from you...
>
> <smile> I'd like to ask you a question, if you don't mind... Do you
> think that it could be that your concept of Native is 'off' and you are
> expecting something else?
I'm really talking energy signature not word choice.
Could be but I usually pick up an image of who I'm posting to. Posting to
Woody was like talking to any other Northern European. I've had contact
wtih Native Americans in the flesh and the feeling is not the same, I can
usually tell what the bent of a person is by their energy...to some extent..
especially if they are ethnic group....but not always..and there's also
spoofing....why for a minute I thought I had tom online....
> That maybe it's possible that you don't have an
> accurate picture of Indian people?
Could be, I've not had that much "real" exposure, met a few in Wyoming,
North
Carolina and Oregon and California, and with Mexican/Indian/Metizos and
Nicaraguan, Guatiemalan, etc. but I haven't lived in close contact, just met
and worked a little with other peoples a little...
>
> Someday, why not try living here in Saskatchewan?
It looks like it might be cold up there. I went to Montreal and
Quebec city last year, but Saskatchewan is a little further north
and Saskatoon....my my...it would certainly be diferent for me,
never been that far North
This place will show
> you (provided you are open to learning), who today's Native people
> are (in Western Canada, anyhow). My small city-- Saskatoon-- has been
> dubbed (and accurately so, IMO) "The Harlem of Canada" (see: The National
> Post), with Caucasian people and Aboriginal people making up most of the
> population.
If I had the time and money I'd come visit.
> Here, even if you're not considered Native, you familiarize
> yourself with Native culture because it's always around-- in the
> friendship centres, on the sides of buildings on the West side, on fences
> in front of certain schools, in the paper and on T.V., at the business
> centre in my neighbourhood (it's on in-city rez land), and through
> Wanuskewin Indian Heritage Centre, (which is decidedly one of the most
> important visiting sites for every elementary school to do business with).
> Canadian film is also important when it comes to illustrating today's
> typical Aboriginal person. Try to find a copy of "Smoke Signals"
Saw the movie..had a friend in Arizona that hung out with some NA that
talked that way....I lived in the South when I was younger, there's a
feeling
to country/rural folks in general that is somewhat shared....
I read a piece in a book on chaos theory that talked about the lack of
organization and how it can work in a NA community...one guy walking
by a lodge house decides that a few shingles need replacing and he gets
up and starts doing it and acts as a "precipatotor" for the community and
pretty soon he's joined by 5-6 others who actually end up fixing the roof
together..but not as a planned action....I don't know how typical that is,
but to me that is an example of a natural situation that might arise from
shared feelings...
> if you
> can and "Dance Me Outside. Despite that both are based upon books written
> by a White guy, I swear I know people just like the characters and the
> hijinx are about right for the Canadian prairies.
>
> The unfortunate part of things here, though, is that the
> connection between being poor and being Native is so very visually
> apparent. If Saskatoon did ~West Side Story~, the crinolin dresses would
> be hockey jerseys, flak jackets, miniskirts, and cowboy boots. The dance
> numbers would involve hoops, jingle bells, and fancy shawls then fly into
> break dance and we switch up the original song numbers with hip-hop and
> rap (but always keeping a drum circle going in the background). And half
> of my friends would be starring-- if not cuz it would be better than
> drinking at The Scuzz all of the time or dealing or stealing, then because
> their social worker sucks and their little sister's baby needs food and
> diapers.
Any different experience sounds cool to some extent...though I've been
through my kind of that experience already....I used to live in a row house
which I paid $45 a month for even though I was making $400 a week. I
thought it would be interesting to experience life at a more real level.
However,
when I had to start carrying a shotgun because of being robbed 3 times in
a week I moved and you know what....it's okay to be happy, and feel safe
and be glad that you can walk down by the river and enjoy a nice cup of
coffee if you want it....or go to Woodys barbecue...
We have had our problems here where people become dependent on a
system instead of a community....community has a 24 hr heart, the systems
heart shuts down at 5:00 PM and is only open M-F that's the problem.
Well a lot of what is put forth in cultures in general is the best of a
culture,
but I don't have a problem with being poor, my Dad's parents were farmers,
if it hadn't been for WWII, there might not be so many college educated
people in the US....the world changes....double income families,
rise of the price of things....children without parental attention,
working two jobs with no health insurance....mr grocery store
clerk used to be able to buy a house on his salary....not no
more....shifting things takes a systemic shift...not a blame shift...
that's an energy waste.
> It's not just Red people here who know that Native folks have
> got shafted. Everybody can see it... it's just typically easier for
> non-Native people who live in closed-gate communities called White Swan
> and Regency Lane to come up with cheap phrases like, "They choose to be
> poor", "They like hooking when they're 15 and pregnant" and "Who else is
> going to pump my gas?" The rest of the non-Native population either was
> raised in a racist home and doesn't want to try to understand (just want
> to continue blaming taxes on "injuns") or they have friends and co-workers
> who are Aboriginal and see that it is everyone's responsibility to try to
> level the playing board and to protect traditional Native values,
You can't level the playing field by limping in front of the lame, the
hardest
part is holding people responsible when you know that initially they
are not....but if you can't own your present situation you can't make
progress......no matter how you got there....certainly wishing or anger
don't make someone more productive...nor does using your energy
as anger when it could be the heat of passion or the beating of a
community spirit heart.....
> religion, and art from being buried under today's world (and all that that
> implies).
> It's hard to not carry Native spirituality, culture and viewpoints with
> you even when your eyes are blue, (so to speak), and there is nothing
> wrong with that when you respect those values and ideas... but you have to
> make sure that you really understand them from the Red Road,
I'm sure it's more real to you than to me...but I've done time in the land
of rednecks and inner city folks too....the only thing it gave me is a
certain feeling that being unhappy could become a "way of life," and
I think that if I had been born that way it would have been extremely
hard to leave....I know that when I tried to convince my friends to go
to college when the factory started closing that they were scared....big
time to try and make the change....leave their friends behind and what
they knew, only a few less than a handful out of thousands made the
change...
alchoholism is a potent attraction for not making the change as
well...
>not
> from Popular Culture's. Make sure that you understand why an archeologist
> taking pictures and bringing back to the museum a medicine pouch means
> nothing and isn't really preserving an understanding of anything, why
> spending a 'day off' fishing and drinkin' and singing country songs at the
> side of a road on top of an old chevy is more real to an Indian's life
> than paintings of some stoic muscle-y guy in warpaint & buckskins wearing
> eaglefeathers and dancing with his pet wolf is...
Maybe it would be good to remember that where the people are
today is not where they always were....and that is why things in
a museum may point the way home...some of the pictures I have
show a HIGH degree of sophistication and the art work
WOULD knock your hat off.....if you've ever seen Haida
art or the Ainu exhibit, you'ld know what I'm talking about
> Ever been to a pow-wow? They're fun. :)
sure...couple of times in Wyoming....
> > Well how can I talk about something you don't have, sorry, being
> > an Indian as you said doesn't guarantee you spirituality..
> > thanks for stopping by......I told you the truth, you don't want to
> > hear it....maybe that's why "your" people aren't approached,
> > you can't hear.....and certainly you aren't hearing me...
>
> Hey, he said he wasn't going to get in the way of your practises; he was
> just speaking his bit about the necessity of being realistic and of making
> sure that you are showing respect. Also, it's not as though he claimed to
> be a Medicine Man. I didn't see any horn-blowing there. Why get upset?
I saw him as taking a stand on top of my stuff, I mean he started
with "Sorry cuse me while I ruin your day" what am I supposed to
do, back off because he's Aboriginal and I'm not...rude is rude...
and I am 1/4 NA, not like it has really influnenced my life except as
background....part of my heritage through actions of my Dad, that's
it...and the way it was presented there is the way I'm presenting it...
> > what culture....I haven't seen any yet or any semblance of insight
> > into my post......am I supposed to say I don't feel or see what I
> > see because you're of the blood.....like genetics gives you some
> > spiritual gifts.....I don't think so...
> Again, what do you define in your mind as being Native culture--
> traditional or modern? Just cuz he's not out shooting a deer every
> morning doesn't mean he's not Native. America seems to have this
> stereotype in it's mind of who Indians are-- and it's dated.
culture as in the way the Hopi Elder I saw in Stillwater Oklahoma,
talked...culture as in not butting in line at the ATM, culture as in
not trying to steal a parking space I'm about to pull into, culture as
in not dumping his trash out the fucking window while he drives down
the road....
> Someone says
> "Indian" and Custard comes to mind along with 1960's film scenes. Try to
> picture being an Aboriginal person in year 2002. There's no tipi or
> wigwam; instead there's probably either a crappy apartment, a rez trailer,
> or a very modest 40-50 year old house. What's your job (if you can get
> one)? Typically: running a video store, mining and construction, peeling
> potatos, dealing smack, midnight cleaning crew, raising your babies,
> flipping burgers at McDonald's, running with the Bloods, minding the desk
> at the LBS off-sale downtown, running things at a bingo hall/bowling
> alley/pool house, or whatever else that hardly keeps that roof over yer
> head.
I haven't been there or done that, my exposure is to inner city types,
winos, druggies, rednecks, old people, pensioners, black...I've worked
retail, I've walked the city streets at night by myself, I've hitchhiked
through
the black section of town while racial strife was occuring picked up by
an old black man...'what the fuck you doing man, you want to get
killed son," my response..."you picked me up, felt okay, I needed
to go through here, this is where I got dropped, thanks," I think you
underestimate the range of my experience....I don't like to wear it
on my sleeve, it's not where I'm at now...I like to have nice things,
and it would be nice for others to have them as well...nice comes
in many sizes...
I was watching a contemporary movie about Japan....couple sharing
a studio flat with mom, small plants in the window, two bicycles for
getting around, shared duties and awareness, not a lot of money but
clean, nice, affection shared and a sense of pace and fitting into the
universe....that's a nice thing I value too..
> You've been raised to believe that you will never have the chance
> to really get anywhere in life. You occasionally hear mention of some
> traditional beliefs, but nobody that you know follows any of that. It's
> all legend to you, although the old guy down the block sitting on the
> steps of Rod's 2nd-hand Clothing Store says that for a while after they
> finally let him leave the Indian school he could still vaguely remember
> his mother's face and what it felt like to have long hair, but he never
> knew any Cree words so the teachers had to make up reasons to abuse
> him. Incidentally, the old guy's name isn't Laughs Like Coyote, Wandering
> Hare or Little Foot Dancing, it's Donnie Evan Pardosky and he
> panhandles between social assistance cheques.
Wonderful sharing thank you....very well written...
I'm familiar with this from looking at some things, but more directly
from our welfare system in the US.....
>
> What would you, as a person under these circumstances, think when you
> watch "Davey Crockett", "Gunsmoke" and "Pocahontas"? You'd sit there and
> say: "Damn... what a pile of B.S. If only we had it so good!"
watching the movies from the old days....I always felt cheated, I had
done a report on NA in the third grade and read folklore and about
Black Hawk, Mandans, Cherokee natiion and whatnot back then,
French and Indian wars....scalping was started by the French as a ploy
to raise hatred and to pay bounties....haven't revisited it in years if
I'm wrong I apoligize..but...I had exposure at a very early age and
had read the folk lore/mythology/fairytales of most cultures by the
time I was 10....including some NA and aboriginals of many lands, at
least as they were available...many books I read were of British
origin..regarding overseas cultures..
> It'd be
> like having African ancestry and watching old Betty Boop where she ends up
> being captured by head hunters or where she's dancing around with her
> stereotyped African-american friend as if they really are friends and as
> if he's not just there because inter-racial social interaction was naughty
> back then and this is a cartoon for adults.
propaganda is a tool.....the problem is the pendulum swings back and
forth and the victims become the perpatrators without a damping action...
truth can sometimes be a damping action..
in Differential Equatinos this is knows as a harmonic oscillation...
> I hope you see the picture I'm trying to display for ya. I'm not meaning
> any rudeness by all of this-- I'm just trying to pull back the curtain a
> little. <shrug> Maybe it's all for nuthin'...
You've done a magnificent job of presenting a lot of difficult information
in a non blaming fashion....thank you for your good work....
Wm
William Edward Woody
> "Taliszanna" <talis...@chem4823.usask.ca> wrote in message
> >
> > > I don't have any proof that it's your tribe, I don't feel any thing
> > > vaguely NA coming from you...
> >
> > <smile> I'd like to ask you a question, if you don't mind... Do you
> > think that it could be that your concept of Native is 'off' and you are
> > expecting something else?
>
> I'm really talking energy signature not word choice.
>
> Could be but I usually pick up an image of who I'm posting to. Posting to
I'm not Indian because your E.S.P. tells you I'm not Indian.
*sigh*
> ... I've had contact
> wtih Native Americans in the flesh and the feeling is not the same, I can
> usually tell what the bent of a person is by their energy...to some extent..
> especially if they are ethnic group....but not always..and there's also
> spoofing....why for a minute I thought I had tom online....
Great. What do you want? For me to cough up a few plattitudes which
cater to your preconceptions?
Ugh.
Perhaps me speekum bad english for great white man, so he know I do not
talk with forked tongue...
> > Hey, he said he wasn't going to get in the way of your practises; he was
> > just speaking his bit about the necessity of being realistic and of making
> > sure that you are showing respect. Also, it's not as though he claimed to
> > be a Medicine Man. I didn't see any horn-blowing there. Why get upset?
>
> I saw him as taking a stand on top of my stuff, I mean he started
> with "Sorry cuse me while I ruin your day" what am I supposed to
> do, back off because he's Aboriginal and I'm not...rude is rude...
I started with "Sorry; 'cuse me while I ruin your day" because I was
about to be contrary to some of the elements of your post. It was *not*
a marker that I was about to be completely rude, or thought you were a
complete moron, or intended to completely negate everything in your post.
If my having a strong opinion is considered rude, then screw you.
However, I *do* have a very strong opinion about the very narrow set of
stuff I discussed--having had it beaten into me on a regular basis since
damn near the day of my birth.
That you took my warning at the top of the post as a sign that I was
going to completely rude; sorry about that.
But I'm not about to be all sweetness and light and warm fuzzy "let's
all sing along with Gaia" native american ecological warrior, nor am I
about to roll over and be submissive when our points of view strongly
diverge.
> > I hope you see the picture I'm trying to display for ya. I'm not meaning
> > any rudeness by all of this-- I'm just trying to pull back the curtain a
> > little. <shrug> Maybe it's all for nuthin'...
>
> You've done a magnificent job of presenting a lot of difficult information
> in a non blaming fashion....thank you for your good work....
Oh, how condesendingly kind of you, thanking another person for their
good work.
I'm sure you don't see it, but to thank another person in such a matter
implies your own superiority.
*sigh*
Well, not that it's any of your business, but I'm descendant of the
Baylon family of the Salinan familial group. The descendants of the
Baylons were fisty and contrary, tending to be a little more headstrong
and a little less patient with "Indian Time." We also tended to be a
little larger and, at least in the San Antonio area, tended to become
the familial heads or village head people.
My grandfather, until his head got smashed by a rock in a mining
accident, was the head person of the familial group that settled in
Morrow Bay. I have two cousins who are currently sitting on the Salinan
Tribal council--in large part because their contrariness and feistyness
is considered beneficial to the tribe.
I'm patient, but I rarely suffer fools gladly. Just like the rest of my
immediate familial group--as a handful of anthropologists at UCSB would
happily tell you, having studied my extended familial group like lab
mice for years.
William Tucker
> "William Tucker" <wmft...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > "Taliszanna" <talis...@chem4823.usask.ca> wrote in message
> > > On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, William Tucker wrote:
> > >
> > > > I don't have any proof that it's your tribe, I don't feel any thing
> > > > vaguely NA coming from you...
> > >
> > > <smile> I'd like to ask you a question, if you don't mind... Do you
> > > think that it could be that your concept of Native is 'off' and you
are
> > > expecting something else?
> >
> > I'm really talking energy signature not word choice.
> >
> > Could be but I usually pick up an image of who I'm posting to. Posting
to
> > Woody was like talking to any other Northern European. ...
>
> I'm not Indian because your E.S.P. tells you I'm not Indian.
I said you didn't feel like one to me.....thanks for being objective
and not twisting my words...you feel a little more NA today
if that's any consolation....;-)
>
> *sigh*
>
>
> > ... I've had contact
> > wtih Native Americans in the flesh and the feeling is not the same, I
can
> > usually tell what the bent of a person is by their energy...to some
extent..
> > especially if they are ethnic group....but not always..and there's also
> > spoofing....why for a minute I thought I had tom online....
>
> Great. What do you want? For me to cough up a few plattitudes which
> cater to your preconceptions?
I was using it as my sample set....I usually use something to reference what
I'm feeling, to make sure I'm not projecting...to someone who knows what
I'm talking about it makes perfect sense, to someone learning it gives an
example...
> Ugh.
>
> Perhaps me speekum bad english for great white man, so he know I do not
> talk with forked tongue...
I said energy signature....and I said it for those that could understand
what
I meant....
>
> > > Hey, he said he wasn't going to get in the way of your practises; he
was
> > > just speaking his bit about the necessity of being realistic and of
making
> > > sure that you are showing respect. Also, it's not as though he
claimed to
> > > be a Medicine Man. I didn't see any horn-blowing there. Why get
upset?
> >
> > I saw him as taking a stand on top of my stuff, I mean he started
> > with "Sorry cuse me while I ruin your day" what am I supposed to
> > do, back off because he's Aboriginal and I'm not...rude is rude...
>
> I started with "Sorry; 'cuse me while I ruin your day" because I was
> about to be contrary to some of the elements of your post. It was *not*
> a marker that I was about to be completely rude, or thought you were a
> complete moron, or intended to completely negate everything in your post.
I thought your posts after the one I killfiled were good, and I think that
you add a depth of information that I don't often see except in
historical accounts of Indian schools and things like that and
I appreciate it....and you are rude...
> If my having a strong opinion is considered rude, then screw you.
> However, I *do* have a very strong opinion about the very narrow set of
> stuff I discussed--having had it beaten into me on a regular basis since
> damn near the day of my birth.
Me too, but by various groups....you've not been particularly nice to
me.....
> That you took my warning at the top of the post as a sign that I was
> going to completely rude; sorry about that.
>
> But I'm not about to be all sweetness and light and warm fuzzy "let's
> all sing along with Gaia" native american ecological warrior, nor am I
> about to roll over and be submissive when our points of view strongly
> diverge.
someday you'll learn to listen as well as you speak....that will be a good
day for you...
> > > I hope you see the picture I'm trying to display for ya. I'm not
meaning
> > > any rudeness by all of this-- I'm just trying to pull back the curtain
a
> > > little. <shrug> Maybe it's all for nuthin'...
> >
> > You've done a magnificent job of presenting a lot of difficult
information
> > in a non blaming fashion....thank you for your good work....
>
> Oh, how condesendingly kind of you, thanking another person for their
> good work.
I meant it...she took the time to put together information from her personal
experiences as well as other information and in healing we call this work...
I believe that other groups do this as well...emotional healing is called
work to recognize the effort that the person puts into their process,
I saw her "work" as an attempt to heal the split between you and I,
it's a lot easier to just empty your spleen into the computer and have an
electronic equivalent of a shit...that's what a lot of people do....I
consider
an intelligent and informative post meant for dissenminating information to
the group to be work and I appreciate it.....it's not just a personal
venting...
> I'm sure you don't see it, but to thank another person in such a matter
> implies your own superiority.
whatever...it could be taken as that if you've not heard the phrase used
before...you can say it to me and I'd appreciate it...you don't have to
reply to my posts in this thread...your later posts show that you have
some good stuff to share...they were well received
> *sigh*
>
>
> Well, not that it's any of your business, but I'm descendant of the
> Baylon family of the Salinan familial group. The descendants of the
> Baylons were fisty and contrary, tending to be a little more headstrong
> and a little less patient with "Indian Time." We also tended to be a
> little larger and, at least in the San Antonio area, tended to become
> the familial heads or village head people.
>
> My grandfather, until his head got smashed by a rock in a mining
> accident, was the head person of the familial group that settled in
> Morrow Bay.
My great great grandfather was murdered because of some kinda
intertribal love affair thing...found in a creekbed..
> I have two cousins who are currently sitting on the Salinan
> Tribal council--in large part because their contrariness and feistyness
> is considered beneficial to the tribe.
>
> I'm patient, but I rarely suffer fools gladly. Just like the rest of my
> immediate familial group--as a handful of anthropologists at UCSB would
> happily tell you, having studied my extended familial group like lab
> mice for years.
Thanks for your work...
I don't suffer bullshit gladly....
in my family emotional outbursts were always considered
weakness as was fighting....my grandpa usually went to talk
with a .38 in his back pocket if he had to go that far...never
used it, but he wasn't a big man...but you know Indians...they
get grumpy....especially if they have to hide it...with no family
to back them...
Wm
William Edward Woody
> I said you didn't feel like one to me.....thanks for being objective
> and not twisting my words...you feel a little more NA today
> if that's any consolation....;-)
I *feel* to you a little more Native American today?
Or could it be that, on reflecting on the things I wrote, you realized
that native american culture is perhaps not quite what you thought it
was earlier--and that, in the additional light thrown on the subject, I
now appear at the edges of your perception?
With all due respect, THINK: I've been told all my life that I'm not a
"proper" native american by white new-age "experts" who got their
understanding of native american culture from books written by idiots.
And they've pissed me off--telling me in essence that I am not who I am
because they believe in some Disneyfied Pocohantas, and if I'm going to
demonstrate my heritage, I should put on some leather thong, strap on
some lace-up moccasins, and dance with war paint around a fire to a drum.
And now here I am, confronted by a fellow who is telling me I'm not a
"proper" native american, and who has claimed (not in so many words) to
be a white native-american "expert."
How the hell am I supposed to react?
I've been flamed by a woman who told me that my web site was an insult
to my ancestors because I didn't provide her a Salinan cultural
tutorial. I've been told by teachers in high school that I must have
made up the "Salinan" name because I was just some poor twit who wished
some native ancestory instead of just being some fat little misfit. (Do
you know what it's like to go home crying because some authority figure
tells you that your perception of yourself is incorrect because you are
an insecure little kid? I have zero respect for teachers or authority
figures to this day.) I've been told by new-agy whites how I don't
understand my culture because I'm not a liberal protesting capitalism.
And frankly, I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore.
So as long as you keep telling me that I'm not a proper Indian because I
don't "project the correct energy" or feed you the correct platitudes, I
will continue to treat you exactly as I see you: as an incredibly rude
self-centered mother-fucking asshole who really deserves a swift kick to
the ass.
tra...@pipeline.com
>And really, I couldn't give a damn about it--except that the next time I
>have to explain in great detail that yes, I'm Indian; no, I am not a
>"steward of the earth" or some great spiritual guru; no, I do not
>worship a damned "totum pole" or make dream catchers or whatever the
>fuck is the latest Indian-inspired "fad" going about--I swear to God
>I'll bash someone's head in with a baseball bat!
whew. he's real all right. Nice to meet ya - methinks.
>
>I'm happy you're happy and inspired and believe all of this is leading
>you down your own spiritual path. It's important to me by and large not
>to actively fuck with other people's spiritual paths.
>
>However, the thing I was bristling at is what I perceived as yet another
>case of native american cultural theft. Every time some white ecological
>movement co-opt native american symbolism in order to give their
>movement a "spiritual" basis; every time some white writes a book on
>"true native american spirituality" as a sort of "instant salvation
>cookbook; just add a dream catcher to your dashboard"--it engages in the
>very sort of cultural destruction you denounced in your last post.
I just stay away from it....
William Tucker
> "William Tucker" <wmft...@earthlink.net> wrote:
I just reread my post....I don't know what's with you, perhaps
I'm not hearing you, I'll try a little harder..
> > I said you didn't feel like one to me.....thanks for being objective
> > and not twisting my words...you feel a little more NA today
> > if that's any consolation....;-)
>
> I *feel* to you a little more Native American today?
>
> Or could it be that, on reflecting on the things I wrote, you realized
> that native american culture is perhaps not quite what you thought it
> was earlier--and that, in the additional light thrown on the subject, I
> now appear at the edges of your perception?
perhaps, it may also be that since you don't seem as out of synch as you
were and throwing so much energy around I can feel you better, or perhaps
I had another signal coming in masking yours that day...or maybe
_didn't_ feel like the NA's I"ve met...for whatever reason
I appreciate the things that you've added in the way of family background
and personal experience...I can say I enjoyed reading them and they
helped to flesh you out a little...but you know maybe your culture as
you said was a little closer to European culture and you also said your
family traits made you stand out from others....I take that to be
different.....and you know.....I'm a real person too...
I thank you for taking the time to add more information about
yourself and talking it out..
...I meet a lot of charged people that
_want to be heard_
I understand that and you know
I _want to be heard too_ without having to apologize for
who I am...
> With all due respect, THINK: I've been told all my life that I'm not a
> "proper" native american by white new-age "experts" who got their
> understanding of native american culture from books written by idiots.
doesn't sound like fun....I wouldn't enjoy being publically critiqued
becasue of my ethnicity/race/culture........or being stereotyped...
please don't project all of your experience with other people on to me...
....I would appreciate it if you would listen to me, if you want me to
listen
to you and treat you with respect....it's called reciprocity...I think we
speak
differently in general....I was wrestling with this last night a little bit
like it's not a
cultural thing that's going on here, but what we view as _normal_
behaviour,
and how my word choice isn't pleasing you and yours isn't pleasing me...I
don't respond well to being called a self-centered mother-fucking asshole
...
I mean that would make most people open right up wouldn't it?
I also know that it takes skill to listen...active listening is a good
technique..
> And they've pissed me off--telling me in essence that I am not who I am
> because they believe in some Disneyfied Pocohantas, and if I'm going to
> demonstrate my heritage, I should put on some leather thong, strap on
> some lace-up moccasins, and dance with war paint around a fire to a drum.
that would make me uncomfortable too, trying to live up to other
peoples expectations of proper behaviour...
> And now here I am, confronted by a fellow who is telling me I'm not a
> "proper" native american, and who has claimed (not in so many words) to
> be a white native-american "expert."
I indicated I had met a couple, worked with some and had not lived
with any unless you count my Dad....and that was never discussed
> How the hell am I supposed to react?
like you're talking to a unique individual, not some stereotypical
new age whitey...
> I've been flamed by a woman who told me that my web site was an insult
> to my ancestors because I didn't provide her a Salinan cultural
> tutorial.
that's not me..
> I've been told by teachers in high school that I must have
> made up the "Salinan" name because I was just some poor twit who wished
> some native ancestory instead of just being some fat little misfit. (Do
> you know what it's like to go home crying because some authority figure
> tells you that your perception of yourself is incorrect because you are
> an insecure little kid?
that's not reasonable behaviour, and not something I would have
done...I consider that bullying..
I certainly wouldn't like it, does that mean I'm supposed to let you
send me home crying so you can feel like you're even......take the
hate out of the circle...don't pass it on...I"ve had my share of not
fitting, of not being accepted, thanks for adding to it...
> I have zero respect for teachers or authority
> figures to this day.) I've been told by new-agy whites how I don't
> understand my culture because I'm not a liberal protesting capitalism.
the pendulum swings the other way...sterotypical response to a group..
> And frankly, I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore.
but it's okay to give it out?
> So as long as you keep telling me that I'm not a proper Indian because I
> don't "project the correct energy" or feed you the correct platitudes, I
> will continue to treat you exactly as I see you: as an incredibly rude
> self-centered mother-fucking asshole who really deserves a swift kick to
> the ass.
whatever...
...is that the fiesty thing that you guys use to get your way...
you know, I think what it is is that as you've said your family
is kind of "fiesty" and my family views that behaviour as rude
and what it really is is different from each other...I am different
from you, we will always make each other uncomfortable,
and it has nothing to do with ethnicity/culture or race. That's
my take on it...I say we move on...or not
Wm
tra...@pipeline.com
>>
>> Perhaps me speekum bad english for great white man, so he know I do not
>> talk with forked tongue...
>
>I said energy signature....and I said it for those that could understand
>what
>I meant....
percieved energy signatures can be wrong. It's not foolproof.
cyberwollf
things?
i can't respond to specific things..for the whole thread is intersting and I
enjoyed it a great deal.
I wanted to comment on a few things I have seen in my life dealing with
various topics within this
great subject.
but first just wanted to say I grew up in northern minnesota surrounded by
various "reservations" and tribes
of the annishanabe people *otherwise called Ojibway or chippewa*. I grew up
always hearing the trash talk of these
people and never once believing in it. I read up on the culture as best I
could and later even took Ojibiway language in college
and was blessed to learn facts.
anyway..
some thing really do disturb me and the point made of people "jumping into"
the native spiritualism is very common
and causes a lot of damage. But what I see as more damaging is how the
culture was destroyed along the way and then during
my college years *about 7 years ago now* a major influx of native american
cultural awareness *promted by non natives mind you*.
The problem was they started to push and badger the tribes to "educate us"
on a lot of things they could hardly recall. The traditions were
almost that successfully wiped out. Fortunetly many of the elders kept the
information and passed it on.
I guess I am saying how much it annoys me when these things pass as a "fad"
and how many (not all) but many feel that if the pretend to learn to be
aware and bs themselves into thinking they are aware. They are usually
using half facts and causing a lot of damage.
And I still live in an area where people trash talk the natives all the
time. Frustrating to say the least.
anyway i guess i rambled. Just wanted to say how i really enjoyed the
thread and how I hate seeing what is being done.
funny how you plan on lurking for a "certian" time but it never works out
that way.
cyberwollf
cyberwollf
<snipped >.
hey taliszanna where do you live?
I may of missed it in the posts.
Real curious, REAL curious.
cyberwollf
tracy
> In article <3C6D962B...@shaw.ca>, hy <hybi...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> > Darn, how am I going to flame you when you are being reasonable,
> > dangit, foiled again. :
>
> Phfffffffffft!
Oh, you speak cat! :)
William Edward Woody
> please don't project all of your experience with other people on to me...
But if you behave like other assholes I've met, I will treat you like
other assholes I've met.
> > So as long as you keep telling me that I'm not a proper Indian because I
> > don't "project the correct energy" or feed you the correct platitudes, I
> > will continue to treat you exactly as I see you: as an incredibly rude
> > self-centered mother-fucking asshole who really deserves a swift kick to
> > the ass.
>
> whatever...
>
> ...is that the fiesty thing that you guys use to get your way...
No; you still don't get it.
You are an asshole. You don't realize you are an asshole. You are
pissing me off, and I've elaborated why--as well as the history behind
why I get so fucking mad when someone like you comes along and tells me
I'm not a proper indian.
I am not trying to get my way, by the way--there is nothing I want,
except perhaps for you to stop being such a fucking asshole towards me.
No; that's not right--I do not expect you to change. But so long as you
continue to be an asshole to me, I will continue to treat you as such.
> you know, I think what it is is that as you've said your family
> is kind of "fiesty" and my family views that behaviour as rude
> and what it really is is different from each other...I am different
> from you, we will always make each other uncomfortable,
> and it has nothing to do with ethnicity/culture or race. That's
> my take on it...I say we move on...or not
I can deal with "uncomfortable." I can deal with other cultural
expectations.
I do not suffer assholes lightly.
tracy
I thought it was much earlier than that.
>
> --><-- --><-- --><-- --><-- --><-- --><-- --><-- --><-- --><--
> Sincerely, Her Mighty Erisian Po*piness: Pope Dances-with-Earwax
> (a.k.a. Taliszanna WhiteCrow, a.k.a. Jessie Brown)-- everybody's favorite
> Sanrio-loving, sushi-chewing, Libran hybrid-Victorian/Edwardwardian/Punk/
> Old-school Gothic Discordian Pope and Eclectic witch obsessed with Oranges
> as a Theory of Life and Post-Modernism as the dark nasal passage of Big
> Brother...
Hey.....that's a great line...hehe, I love it! Dark nasal passage of
big brother....
Taliszanna
> Thanks.
You are welcome, it was my pleasure.
-Talis
William Tucker
> "William Tucker" <wmft...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > please don't project all of your experience with other people on to
me...
>
> But if you behave like other assholes I've met, I will treat you like
> other assholes I've met.
If you try to pass your pain off as my pain, I will return it to you....
until you understand...and the cycle is broken.
Wm
> William Edward Woody
tra...@pipeline.com
>If you try to pass your pain off as my pain, I will return it to you....
>until you understand...and the cycle is broken.
Do you teach?
Tom
"William Tucker" <wmft...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:vDsd8.8111$ZC3.6...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> "William Edward Woody" <wo...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote in message
> news:woody-E56C14....@newssvr14-ext.news.prodigy.com...
> >
> > other assholes I've met.
>
> If you try to pass your pain off as my pain, I will return it to you....
> until you understand...and the cycle is broken.
What an asshole.
William Edward Woody
will repeat here.
I have no problems per se with the "fluffy bunny" path--hell, I have no
problems with any path that anyone may choose. We all have our paths to
walk, and for me to presume that I know the path you need to walk in
your life is the ultimate arrogance.
The only problem I have with the fluffy bunny type is that many, in
presuming that their way is "right" (by being "proper" or "white light"
or "environmentally friendly" or "sanitized for your protection"), they
often show great arrogance towards anyone who doesn't fit in their
preconceived notion of what is "right" and "proper."
Of course this sort of "my way is the only right way" arrogance is not
limited to the fluffy bunny types. But what makes fluffy bunnies
especially annoying (at least to me) is the incidiousness of their
arrogance. By being all about "goodness and light" they often aren't
aware of the fact that they are being incredibly arrogant in their
interactions.
Something about pushing all the negative aspects of their personality
into the "shadow" subconscious where it erupts in all sorts of horrible,
passive-agressive ways.
Ah, well. Just talking out of my ass and reserving the right to be
wrong...
- Bill Woody
William Tucker
Wm
William Tucker
<tra...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:3c766d38...@news.lvcablemodem.com...
life is the lesson and the teacher....I was just talking with my teacher...
Wm
William Tucker
"Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Alwd8.59$PG.6...@news.uswest.net...
> What an asshole.
Thank you...
Wm
Asiya
You hit the nail on the head. It is ironic that fluff bunnies often
react with hostility whenever someone challenges their fluffy ideas.
Asiya
**********
www.geocities.com/shadowsofasiya/
Eat the meatballs to email me.
William Tucker
"Asiya" <asiya_...@MEATBALLSmindspring.com> wrote in message
news:a56kd5$rk4$1...@slb4.atl.mindspring.net...
feeling testy eh? Did you finish the exercise?
It's not about being embarrased in public and getting snippy
You think I haven't been embarrased, life is about burning
off the capacity to be embarrassed...when that happens
your coffee and pumpkin bread will sing in your hands...
I've been put through Woodys going through with me
it's called Pathwork, most of it I did on my own by reading
the books and knowing people that practiced it, and it is
uncomfortable....I"ve been uncomfortable with Woody,
I've also been nice and blunt and a few other things...
read the posts....Pathwork is not for sissies...
I've done shadow work,
it's part of my training...and the biggest part of transformation...not
to be avoided by intellectuallism...the point is to own your shadow...
your pain, your anger and your fear without passing it on....you learn
to eat it, NOT repress it....if you're good at it you can eat bad karma,
and if you're really good at it you can do healing...
It has a lot to do with energy
Wm
Asiya
> "Asiya" <asiya_...@MEATBALLSmindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:a56kd5$rk4$1...@slb4.atl.mindspring.net...
> >
often
> > react with hostility whenever someone challenges their fluffy
ideas.
>
Not at all; are you?
> Did you finish the exercise?
No, it was not necessary to do it.
> It's not about being embarrased in public and getting snippy
What reason do you think I have to be embarrassed?
How is making an accurate observation being snippy?
> You think I haven't been embarrased, life is about burning
> off the capacity to be embarrassed...
That is a part of it, sure. And I lost the ability to be embarrassed
on this ng quite a ways back.
Bruce Burhans
"Asiya" <asiya_...@MEATBALLSmindspring.com> wrote in message
That is more than obvious...............
Bruce<+>
William Edward Woody
> it's not a matter of right or wrong asshole...
Nope; it's all relative. Everything is relative. No absolutes. Nothing.
Got straight C's in high school, huh?
tra...@pipeline.com
>feeling testy eh? Did you finish the exercise?
>It's not about being embarrased in public and getting snippy
>You think I haven't been embarrased, life is about burning
>off the capacity to be embarrassed...when that happens
>your coffee and pumpkin bread will sing in your hands...
>
>
>I've been put through Woodys going through with me
>it's called Pathwork, most of it I did on my own by reading
>the books and knowing people that practiced it, and it is
>uncomfortable....I"ve been uncomfortable with Woody,
>I've also been nice and blunt and a few other things...
>read the posts....Pathwork is not for sissies...
I thought pathworking was a kabbalah technique.
>
>I've done shadow work,
>it's part of my training...and the biggest part of transformation...not
>to be avoided by intellectuallism...the point is to own your shadow...
>your pain, your anger and your fear without passing it on....you learn
>to eat it, NOT repress it....if you're good at it you can eat bad karma,
>and if you're really good at it you can do healing...
>It has a lot to do with energy
Are you attempting to teach something through Usenet?
A difficult proposition, even assuming the person wants it.
Tom
"William Tucker" <wmft...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:MaBd8.9712$ZC3.7...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> You think I haven't been embarrased, life is about burning
> off the capacity to be embarrassed...
Those who lack the capacity to think also have no capacity for being
embarassed. So be like Bill, dumb yourself down until you lose the
capacity to even realize what an asshole you are.
> Pathwork is not for sissies...
Sure it is. Plenty of sissies do pathwork. In fact, it's mainly sissies
who do pathwork.
William Tucker
and California...Donovan and Susan Thesenga wrote some
books and Eva Pierrakos and her husband wrote some
books as well...John Pierrakos used to do work with
Wilhelm Reich, who worked with Freund and Jung before
thier split...Reich went on to explore energy and how it related
to manifestations of mental illness...who knows what happened
to the other two...;-)
the work with shadow is healing related...using who I am
in relation to the lessons I've learned in life is called
"being myself"
I can win, lose, manipulate or be myself
one of my favorites books is called "Fear No Evil"
these series of works are the only books and teachers
that work with the concept of evil as a "thing" that can
be effectively healed....that I'm aware of.
Wm
<tra...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:3c77df10...@news.lvcablemodem.com...
> On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 00:15:40 GMT, "William Tucker"
<wmft...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
> >feeling testy eh? Did you finish the exercise?
> >It's not about being embarrased in public and getting snippy
> >You think I haven't been embarrased, life is about burning
> >off the capacity to be embarrassed...when that happens
> >your coffee and pumpkin bread will sing in your hands...
> >
> >
> >I've been put through Woodys going through with me
> >it's called Pathwork, most of it I did on my own by reading
> >the books and knowing people that practiced it, and it is
> >uncomfortable....I"ve been uncomfortable with Woody,
> >I've also been nice and blunt and a few other things...
> >read the posts....Pathwork is not for sissies...
>
> I thought pathworking was a kabbalah technique.
I don't know anything about the kabbalah, except that some of
the entities that I work with use some of the symbolism....but I've
not studied it.....you'd have to ask Colin or Josh to comment...or
mr nagasiva...
> >
> >I've done shadow work,
> >it's part of my training...and the biggest part of transformation...not
> >to be avoided by intellectuallism...the point is to own your shadow...
> >your pain, your anger and your fear without passing it on....you learn
> >to eat it, NOT repress it....if you're good at it you can eat bad karma,
> >and if you're really good at it you can do healing...
> >It has a lot to do with energy
>
> Are you attempting to teach something through Usenet?
Teaching assumes that I'm not getting anything from the conversation...
and that I'm myself not learning...to work from the core invites growth
for both parties....I prefer the term dance....that's what I'm doing...
William Tucker
you're an evil evil man...
Wm
Asiya
> news:MaBd8.9712$ZC3.7...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
>
> Sure it is. Plenty of sissies do pathwork. In fact, it's mainly
sissies
> who do pathwork.
Why do you say that?
Tom
>
> you're an evil evil man...
If I'm an evil man, I do what men shouldn't do. If I'm an evil evil man, I
do what evil men shouldn't do.
Tom
"Asiya" <asiya_...@MEATBALLSmindspring.com> wrote in message
> "Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:TDTd8.73$Bn2....@news.uswest.net...
> > "William Tucker" <wmft...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:MaBd8.9712$ZC3.7...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >
> > > Pathwork is not for sissies...
> >
> > Sure it is. Plenty of sissies do pathwork. In fact, it's mainly
> > sissies who do pathwork.
>
> Why do you say that?
Because pathwork is an imaginary exercise. It entails no real risk. It's
similar to the excitement of going to a scary movie. Vivid imagery, but
nobody's really going to get hurt.
So sissies prefer it to taking on real challenges.
cyberwollf
so anyone willing to give birth isn't a sissy..right?
cyberwollf
who has had 2 kids.......and it still hurts..(grin)
Taliszanna
Country: Canada
Province: Saskatchewan
City: Saskatoon
You might notice that my e-mail address includes "chem4823.usask.ca"--
meaning the chemistry dept. at the University of Saskatchewan in Canada.
- Tali
Taliszanna
> Taliszanna <talis...@chem4823.usask.ca> wrote in message news:<Pine.LNX.4.21.02021...@chem4823.usask.ca>...
>
> > If an Indian raised in a stereotypical North American White household was
> > walking around Hungary and found the cure for some soul sickness in
> > Hungarian ways, I would not think to turn him or her away. Our pagan
> > religion was wiped out in the 12th century...
>
> I thought it was much earlier than that.
As far as I can recall, that was when Hungary had last been ruled by
pagan Hungarians. I may be wrong, however. It is hard to know exactly
the history of Magyar [*Hungary] because the records pertaining to our
early history were for the most part destroyed by the R.C. Church when it
moved in and took over.
> > Sincerely, Her Mighty Erisian Po*piness: Pope Dances-with-Earwax
> > (a.k.a. Taliszanna WhiteCrow, a.k.a. Jessie Brown)-- everybody's favorite
> > Sanrio-loving, sushi-chewing, Libran hybrid-Victorian/Edwardwardian/Punk/
> > Old-school Gothic Discordian Pope and Eclectic witch obsessed with Oranges
> > as a Theory of Life and Post-Modernism as the dark nasal passage of Big
> > Brother...
>
> Hey.....that's a great line...hehe, I love it! Dark nasal passage of
> big brother....
Heh, glad ya like it. :) Just a bit of Discordian ranting verging on
punk rebellion. (Go Old School Goth!)
-Tali
Taliszanna
> Do you teach?
Everyone teaches.
And, in some sense, everyone leeches.
-Talis
Taliszanna
>
> "Taliszanna" <talis...@chem4823.usask.ca> wrote in message
> news:Pine.LNX.4.21.02021...@chem4823.usask.ca...
> >
>
> It looks like it might be cold up there.
Heh, it is... but if ya can survive Saskatchewan, you can survive nearly
anywhere. We have desertland, prairieland, harsh winters, sweltering
summers, and when it rains it rains forever.
> I went to Montreal and Quebec city last year, but Saskatchewan is a
> little further north and Saskatoon....my my...it would certainly be
> diferent for me, never been that far North
It *would* be an adventure, though. :)
> > Try to find a copy of "Smoke Signals"
>
> Saw the movie..had a friend in Arizona that hung out with some NA that
> talked that way....I lived in the South when I was younger, there's a
> feeling to country/rural folks in general that is somewhat shared....
>
> I read a piece in a book on chaos theory that talked about the lack of
> organization and how it can work in a NA community...one guy walking
> by a lodge house decides that a few shingles need replacing and he gets
> up and starts doing it and acts as a "precipatotor" for the community and
> pretty soon he's joined by 5-6 others who actually end up fixing the roof
> together..but not as a planned action....I don't know how typical that is,
> but to me that is an example of a natural situation that might arise from
> shared feelings...
<nods> I can see how that would work. One person actually takes
initiative, others witness it and ask themselves why they don't do the
same, people actually start caring about taking action. It's a good
thing.
> Any different experience sounds cool to some extent...though I've been
> through my kind of that experience already....I used to live in a row house
> which I paid $45 a month for even though I was making $400 a week. I
> thought it would be interesting to experience life at a more real level.
> However, when I had to start carrying a shotgun because of being robbed
> 3 times in a week I moved and you know what....it's okay to be happy,
> and feel safe and be glad that you can walk down by the river and enjoy
> a nice cup of coffee if you want it....or go to Woodys barbecue...
Yeah. Living at a real level doesn't need to mean choosing the underbelly
of the city. But it was an experience for ya and taught you something
valuable.
Say, did that place have a communal washroom by chance? <g>
> We have had our problems here where people become dependent on a
> system instead of a community....community has a 24 hr heart, the systems
> heart shuts down at 5:00 PM and is only open M-F that's the problem.
That's no good. Monday morning must be a mad time for corner stores,
money marts, and social workers.
> Well a lot of what is put forth in cultures in general is the best of a
> culture,
> but I don't have a problem with being poor, my Dad's parents were farmers,
Heh, we have LOTS of those here.
> if it hadn't been for WWII, there might not be so many college educated
> people in the US....the world changes....double income families,
> rise of the price of things....children without parental attention,
> working two jobs with no health insurance....
At least we have guaranteed public health care. That trend was started
for Canada here in my province, too. :)
> mr grocery store clerk used to be able to buy a house on his salary...
> not no more... shifting things takes a systemic shift...not a blame
> shift... that's an energy waste.
You're right, it's an utter waste.
> > The rest of the non-Native population either were
> > raised in a racist home and don't want to try to understand (just want
> > to continue blaming taxes on "injuns") or they have friends and co-workers
> > who are Aboriginal and see that it is everyone's responsibility to try to
> > level the playing board and to protect traditional Native values,
>
> You can't level the playing field by limping in front of the lame, the
> hardest part is holding people responsible when you know that initially
> they are not... but if you can't own your present situation you can't
> make progress... no matter how you got there... certainly wishing or
> anger don't make someone more productive...nor does using your energy
> as anger when it could be the heat of passion or the beating of a
> community spirit heart.....
Quite!
> > It's hard to not carry Native spirituality, culture and viewpoints with
> > you even when your eyes are blue, (so to speak), and there is nothing
> > wrong with that when you respect those values and ideas... but you have to
> > make sure that you really understand them from the Red Road,
>
> I'm sure it's more real to you than to me...but I've done time in the land
> of rednecks and inner city folks too....the only thing it gave me is a
> certain feeling that being unhappy could become a "way of life,"
God, I know enough goths to tell ya it does get used by some that way. I
don't choose to, however. 'Visual' goths also tend to be poor,
incidentally.
> and
> I think that if I had been born that way it would have been extremely
> hard to leave....I know that when I tried to convince my friends to go
> to college when the factory started closing that they were scared....big
> time to try and make the change....leave their friends behind and what
> they knew, only a few less than a handful out of thousands made the
> change...
Damn, that's really unfortunate... but at least some of them left. That's
better than nothin'.
> alchoholism is a potent attraction for not making the change as
> well...
Don't I know it!
> Maybe it would be good to remember that where the people are
> today is not where they always were....
Oh, I know that. Trust me, I never forget. Hard to here, when that is
continually brought up.
> and that is why things in a museum may point the way home...
<wince> I think that artifacts being preserved in a Native museum has some
value, but being preserved in a common museum it won't mean much. But
that's me.
> some of the pictures I have show a HIGH degree of sophistication and the
> art work WOULD knock your hat off.....if you've ever seen Haida
> art or the Ainu exhibit, you'ld know what I'm talking about
I've seen a lot of Haida art. Beautiful stuff, just gorgeous. I've also
seen a lot of artwork done by Emily Carr. While she was no Native, she
spent a lot of time with certain bands in the areas where she would paint
and captured so eerily their spirit in her paintings. But that is not the
same as if a Native man or woman had done the paintings.
> > Hey, he said he wasn't going to get in the way of your practises; he was
> > just speaking his bit about the necessity of being realistic and of making
> > sure that you are showing respect. Also, it's not as though he claimed to
> > be a Medicine Man. I didn't see any horn-blowing there. Why get upset?
>
> I saw him as taking a stand on top of my stuff, I mean he started
> with "Sorry cuse me while I ruin your day" what am I supposed to
> do, back off because he's Aboriginal and I'm not...rude is rude...
Who knows if he actually meant to be rude with that, but yes, it might
have been phrased better. I think that he might have just meant that he
thought that your views were not quite realistic to Native
spirituality. Me, I hold no judgment either way.
> and I am 1/4 NA, not like it has really influnenced my life except as
> background....part of my heritage through actions of my Dad, that's
> it...and the way it was presented there is the way I'm presenting it...
Good for you for taking an interest. Here in Canada, you'd be a part of
the Aboriginal scene under the term "Metis"-- part Native and part
non-Native. What tribe were your Native ancestors from, if you don't
mind? I'm just curious. I have been a recreational student of many
tribes for years. :) Perhaps it would be good for your spirit to learn
about your ancestors' tribe as I do the tribe of mine (Algonkin).
> > Again, what do you define in your mind as being Native culture--
> > traditional or modern? Just cuz he's not out shooting a deer every
> > morning doesn't mean he's not Native. America seems to have this
> > stereotype in it's mind of who Indians are-- and it's dated.
>
> culture as in the way the Hopi Elder I saw in Stillwater Oklahoma,
> talked...culture as in not butting in line at the ATM, culture as in
> not trying to steal a parking space I'm about to pull into, culture as
> in not dumping his trash out the fucking window while he drives down
> the road....
I think you are talking about 'class', not culture.
> > Someone says
> > "Indian" and Custard comes to mind along with 1960's film scenes. Try to
> > picture being an Aboriginal person in year 2002. There's no tipi or
> > wigwam; instead there's probably either a crappy apartment, a rez trailer,
> > or a very modest 40-50 year old house. What's your job (if you can get
> > one)? Typically: running a video store, mining and construction, peeling
> > potatos, dealing smack, midnight cleaning crew, raising your babies,
> > flipping burgers at McDonald's, running with the Bloods, minding the desk
> > at the LBS off-sale downtown, running things at a bingo hall/bowling
> > alley/pool house, or whatever else that hardly keeps that roof over yer
> > head.
>
> I haven't been there or done that, my exposure is to inner city types,
> winos, druggies, rednecks, old people, pensioners, black...I've worked
> retail, I've walked the city streets at night by myself, I've hitchhiked
> through the black section of town while racial strife was occuring
> picked up by an old black man...'what the fuck you doing man, you want
> to get killed son," my response..."you picked me up, felt okay, I
> needed to go through here, this is where I got dropped, thanks," I think
> you underestimate the range of my experience...
Because you didn't mention it before. Thanks for giving me a picture now
to see through. Helps to know that you know a bit about inner city
culture. But I think that it would be good to try to find out some more
about Native culture as it is today, aside from that. Hell, I'm learnin'
as I go along about what being Native is like for those who don't live on
the West Side. Good to see the Red Road from all sides.
> I don't like to wear it
> on my sleeve, it's not where I'm at now...I like to have nice things,
> and it would be nice for others to have them as well...nice comes
> in many sizes...
(Amen.*)
> I was watching a contemporary movie about Japan....couple sharing
> a studio flat with mom, small plants in the window, two bicycles for
> getting around, shared duties and awareness, not a lot of money but
> clean, nice, affection shared and a sense of pace and fitting into the
> universe....that's a nice thing I value too..
That's something that I'd like to have some day-- that basic environment,
not cluttered by this that or the other unimportancy, a place that is safe
and where I can stretch out at the end of the day, kiss my man and prepare
supper with him, have a friend or two over once in a while, know that
there is love in my house. :) I don't need a flashy house... maybe a few
nice things that symbolise something greater, but I don't so much. I
don't understand people who buy Monster Homes with 18 garages and the
horse stables in the backyard when there is only them and their two or
three kids. And what 12 year old really needs a cell phone? Gawd...
> > You've been raised to believe that you will never have the chance
> > to really get anywhere in life. You occasionally hear mention of some
> > traditional beliefs, but nobody that you know follows any of that. It's
> > all legend to you, although the old guy down the block sitting on the
> > steps of Rod's 2nd-hand Clothing Store says that for a while after they
> > finally let him leave the Indian school he could still vaguely remember
> > his mother's face and what it felt like to have long hair, but he never
> > knew any Cree words so the teachers had to make up reasons to abuse
> > him. Incidentally, the old guy's name isn't Laughs Like Coyote, Wandering
> > Hare or Little Foot Dancing, it's Donnie Evan Pardosky and he
> > panhandles between social assistance cheques.
>
> Wonderful sharing thank you....very well written...
Thank you. :)
> I'm familiar with this from looking at some things, but more directly
> from our welfare system in the US.....
America's wellfare system I have no experience with outside of witnessing
it's effects (or lack of effectiveness?) on t.v. I've only been outside
of Canada once when driving back from Newfoundland through Buffalo and
back up into Canada at 7 years of age. I'd like to get down to AZ some
day to visit my Brother...
> > What would you, as a person under these circumstances, think when you
> > watch "Davey Crockett", "Gunsmoke" and "Pocahontas"? You'd sit there and
> > say: "Damn... what a pile of B.S. If only we had it so good!"
>
> watching the movies from the old days....I always felt cheated, I had
> done a report on NA in the third grade and read folklore and about
> Black Hawk, Mandans, Cherokee natiion and whatnot back then,
> French and Indian wars....scalping was started by the French as a ploy
> to raise hatred and to pay bounties....haven't revisited it in years if
> I'm wrong I apoligize..but...I had exposure at a very early age and
> had read the folk lore/mythology/fairytales of most cultures by the
> time I was 10....including some NA and aboriginals of many lands, at
> least as they were available...many books I read were of British
> origin..regarding overseas cultures..
I meant how would it seem to those who were raised Native. Unless you were
and were not raised in 'White' culture (in which case, i apologise for not
having been aware).
> > It'd be
> > like having African ancestry and watching old Betty Boop where she ends up
> > being captured by head hunters or where she's dancing around with her
> > stereotyped African-american friend as if they really are friends and as
> > if he's not just there because inter-racial social interaction was naughty
> > back then and this is a cartoon for adults.
>
> propaganda is a tool.....the problem is the pendulum swings back and
> forth and the victims become the perpatrators without a damping action...
> truth can sometimes be a damping action..
This is... true. Heh...
> > I hope you see the picture I'm trying to display for ya. I'm not meaning
> > any rudeness by all of this-- I'm just trying to pull back the curtain a
> > little. <shrug> Maybe it's all for nuthin'...
>
> You've done a magnificent job of presenting a lot of difficult information
> in a non blaming fashion....thank you for your good work....
>
> Wm
And thank you for not getting upset with me at any point (which I kind of
feared happening). :)
This has been an enjoyable thread!
-Talis
Taliszanna
> "William Tucker" <wmft...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > "Taliszanna" <talis...@chem4823.usask.ca> wrote in message
> > >
> > > I hope you see the picture I'm trying to display for ya. I'm not meaning
> > > any rudeness by all of this-- I'm just trying to pull back the curtain a
> > > little. <shrug> Maybe it's all for nuthin'...
> >
> > You've done a magnificent job of presenting a lot of difficult information
> > in a non blaming fashion....thank you for your good work....
>
> Oh, how condesendingly kind of you, thanking another person for their
> good work.
>
> I'm sure you don't see it, but to thank another person in such a matter
> implies your own superiority.
>
> *sigh*
Um, maybe you could explain for me how it was condescending because I
don't see it. It saw it as politeness. But how is kindness bad, anyhow?
> Well, not that it's any of your business, but I'm descendant of the
> Baylon family of the Salinan familial group. The descendants of the
> Baylons were fisty and contrary, tending to be a little more headstrong
> and a little less patient with "Indian Time."
Heh, you have that saying down there, too, eh?
> We also tended to be a little larger and, at least in the San Antonio
> area, tended to become the familial heads or village head people.
>
> My grandfather, until his head got smashed by a rock in a mining
> accident, was the head person of the familial group that settled in
> Morrow Bay. I have two cousins who are currently sitting on the Salinan
> Tribal council--in large part because their contrariness and feistyness
> is considered beneficial to the tribe.
>
> I'm patient, but I rarely suffer fools gladly. Just like the rest of my
> immediate familial group--as a handful of anthropologists at UCSB would
> happily tell you, having studied my extended familial group like lab
> mice for years.
--><-- --><-- --><-- --><-- --><-- --><-- --><-- --><-- --><--
Sincerely, Her Mighty Erisian Po*piness: Pope Dances-with-Earwax
(a.k.a. Taliszanna WhiteCrow, a.k.a. Jessie Brown)-- everybody's favorite
Sanrio-loving, sushi-chewing, Libran hybrid-Victorian/Edwardwardian/Punk/
Old-school Gothic Discordian Pope and Eclectic witch obsessed with Oranges
as a Theory of Life and Post-Modernism as the dark nasal passage of Big
Brother...
* http://members.tripod.com/talis_white_crow/
* http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ASLR/
* http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FortunePostOThaDay/
~ Carpe noctem; memento mori. ~
Taliszanna
> "William Tucker" <wmft...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > I said you didn't feel like one to me.....thanks for being objective
> > and not twisting my words...you feel a little more NA today
> > if that's any consolation....;-)
>
> I *feel* [you to be?] a little more Native American today?
-----< brevity snip >-----
> With all due respect, THINK:
But do you honestly mean any respect here, W.E.W.? I understand to an
extent where you are coming from because you have shared much with us on
what you were raised with in terms of-- (see next part):
> I've been told all my life that I'm not a
> "proper" native american by white new-age "experts" who got their
> understanding of native american culture from books written by idiots.
> And they've pissed me off--telling me in essence that I am not who I am
> because they believe in some Disneyfied Pocohantas, and if I'm going to
> demonstrate my heritage, I should put on some leather thong, strap on
> some lace-up moccasins, and dance with war paint around a fire to a drum.
...and I respect your right to you feelings, but I also think that it has
made you hyper-sensitive. WmFT wasn't trying to offend anyone, he was
trying to get in touch with some of his own roots as a [Metis] raised in
"white" culture, and it seems that you both took each other's words too
harshly and returned those words with harshness before understanding
completely where the other was coming from.
It is obvious that you care very much about Native issues and about your
roots, but it does not do better to replace a potential fluffy image that
someone may have of Native folks with an altogether aggressive one.
Diplomacy usually does a better job, it seems to me.
And yes, I am trying to lessen the rift between you two based upon
different personalities, different backgrounds, and the misunderstandings
of one another's intentions that you both carry. I want to see some
productivity, not just anger. There has been enough anger in this world
to rip it apart. Keeping a cool head can clear away many clouds in
judgment and help one to say without rudeness what is meant and to work
with others towards solutions and a greater understanding.
> And now here I am, confronted by a fellow who is telling me I'm not a
> "proper" native american, and who has claimed (not in so many words) to
> be a white native-american "expert."
When did he say that he was an expert (in "not so many words")? Please
quote the posts or give me links to the posts saved on Google.
> How the hell am I supposed to react?
Try to be calm. It can be hard when a person feels discriminated against,
but calmness will both make a good impression, show class, and help you to
not discriminate against others. I fail sometimes at this, admittedly...
usually when I'm dealing with people being idiots... but I try to keep
my cool.
When I'm angry for similar reasons to yours (usually due to a person
waving a Treaty card under my nose and telling me that I'm a wannabe
Indian cuz my skin is rosy-peach), I stay calm, reply that no lack of an
'Indian card' in my wallet can change who my ancestors are or what I
respect and am proud of-- and that I hope that person has a nice day.
Because my fullblood was several generations ago, I get picked on-- get
told that I have no right to even be interested in it, to know where I
came from. The Hungarians love me, but not as much as if I'd been 100%
so they don't count me fully as Hungarian either. The Irish side wants to
hear ya say yer Irish and nothin' else, the Brit side wants to flip the
bird at the "Mics", and the Quebec French side would meanwhile like to
give the Upper Canadians (Ontarians) a good kick in the seat of the
pants. So they all claim *and* reject me, and then I've gotta deal with
people waving treaty cards and flashing mirrors in front of my face. I
*get* how you are angry. But spitting won't do no good.
> I've been flamed by a woman who told me that my web site was an insult
> to my ancestors because I didn't provide her a Salinan cultural
> tutorial.
Huh???
> I've been told by teachers in high school that I must have
> made up the "Salinan" name because I was just some poor twit who wished
> some native ancestory instead of just being some fat little misfit. (Do
> you know what it's like to go home crying because some authority figure
> tells you that your perception of yourself is incorrect because you are
> an insecure little kid? I have zero respect for teachers or authority
> figures to this day.) I've been told by new-agy whites how I don't
> understand my culture because I'm not a liberal protesting capitalis[t].
>
> And frankly, I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore.
So you instead decide to lash out at the first person who comes
along? There are better ways to fix it. If you start shouting, no one
will hear you. Make a good impression and people keep listening.
Diplomacy is the key.
> So as long as you keep telling me that I'm not a proper Indian because I
> don't "project the correct energy" or feed you the correct platitudes, I
> will continue to treat you exactly as I see you: as an incredibly rude
> self-centered mother-fucking asshole who really deserves a swift kick to
> the ass.
Wm.F.Tucker was simply saying that his ability to get some image of the
cultural background of a person wasn't working with you. He didn't say
that you weren't Native, as far as I can recall.
Tom
"cyberwollf" <cyber...@ndak.net> wrote in message
news:u7jeag9...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> so anyone willing to give birth isn't a sissy..right?
Usually. Then again, for some, having children is a way to avoid other
challenges.
I used to work in a school for "at-risk" teens, many of whom were mothers.
I recall one of them tellling me that she had her baby because that
guaranteed that there'd be someone in the world who'd love her.
Pain isn't always as big a challenge as other risks. One of the
attractions of masochism is that you're the center of attention. Some
people prefer being in pain to being ignored.
Each of us has a demon more terrifying than all the others. For each of
us, it may be a different demon.
William Edward Woody
> > How the hell am I supposed to react?
>
> Try to be calm.
Keep in mind that the thread that you were replying to was the third
loop of the same fellow saying that perhaps, as he didn't sense any
"Native Energy" from me, that I was a poser or a faker.
> ... It can be hard when a person feels discriminated against,
> but calmness will both make a good impression, show class, and help you to
> not discriminate against others. ...
In general, you are preaching to the choir.
However, if you are suggesting that one should never get angry, upset,
annoyed, and that one should never reply as such when someone has
basically went after you *three* times, I think you are expecting
unreasonably polite behavior. That is, if you expect someone never to
get upset and show it, never to reply to stupidity or never to state
one's position or one's desires in a forceful manner when people
overstep their bounds and fail to respond to reason, then you are
advocating that one be a doormat.
Dignity does not come from always being polite.
Quite honestly I believe I was being reasonably calm given the
circumstances. Unfortunately the nature of those circumstances was not
being reflected completely in the post that you were replying to.
> When I'm angry for similar reasons to yours (usually due to a person
> waving a Treaty card under my nose and telling me that I'm a wannabe
> Indian cuz my skin is rosy-peach), I stay calm, reply that no lack of an
> 'Indian card' in my wallet can change who my ancestors are or what I
> respect and am proud of-- and that I hope that person has a nice day.
> Because my fullblood was several generations ago, I get picked on-- get
> told that I have no right to even be interested in it, to know where I
> came from. The Hungarians love me, but not as much as if I'd been 100%
> so they don't count me fully as Hungarian either. The Irish side wants to
> hear ya say yer Irish and nothin' else, the Brit side wants to flip the
> bird at the "Mics", and the Quebec French side would meanwhile like to
> give the Upper Canadians (Ontarians) a good kick in the seat of the
> pants. ...
I have never encountered any of this from any of these quarters.
I also have Spanish, British, Irish, Cherokee and French Basque blood in
me (in increasingly smaller and smaller amounts, mostly from my father's
side fo the family--the Spanish and Basque from my mother's side), and
while there are definititely squabbles in the world between different
factions of people, when you say you can trace part of your ancestory
here, I've never seen people not want to treat you as blood.
> ... So they all claim *and* reject me, and then I've gotta deal with
> people waving treaty cards and flashing mirrors in front of my face. I
> *get* how you are angry. But spitting won't do no good.
I'm not angry because I'm being rejected by relatives on any side of the
family for not being blood. I'm not angry because I don't belong to a
federally recognized tribe. Nor am I really angry because I got my
father's skin complection and my mothers' skull shape--though I will
admit, it's a bitch shopping for a size 8 1/4 hat size and had to
special order a bike helmet because the "X-Large" bike helmets fit up to
size 7 7/8. (I've been told by an anthropologist at UC Santa Barbara
that the Salinan people have larger skulls than average, and is more of
a defining trait than is skin color. But damn it; I wanted my brother's
built-in tan! (*smile*)
> > I've been flamed by a woman who told me that my web site was an insult
> > to my ancestors because I didn't provide her a Salinan cultural
> > tutorial.
>
> Huh???
I'm angry because people who are not Indian and who don't know or
understand where I came from or the culture of the tribe I belong to
tell me I'm being a poor Indian because I don't live up to their
expectations.
I used to post on alt.native a while ago, and when I told people there
that I was Salinan, one woman went to my web site to find more
information about the tribe.
And when she didn't find the information she wrote me and told me at
great length (something like 300 lines) how that if I were truely
Salinan, I would have put up at least a dozen pages on Salinan culture,
language, and stories, along with pictures of my relatives and of the
traditional tribal lands, cave paintings and the like.
She concluded by saying that as I hadn't done this, I was wasting
valuable Internet resources, and that I must be a poser or a liar, and
how dare me that I should pretend to be what I am clearly not.
Not the first nutcase I ever met, but certainly a memorable one.
> > I've been told by teachers in high school that I must have
> > made up the "Salinan" name because I was just some poor twit who wished
> > some native ancestory instead of just being some fat little misfit. (Do
> > you know what it's like to go home crying because some authority figure
> > tells you that your perception of yourself is incorrect because you are
> > an insecure little kid? I have zero respect for teachers or authority
> > figures to this day.) I've been told by new-agy whites how I don't
> > understand my culture because I'm not a liberal protesting capitalis[t].
> >
> > And frankly, I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore.
>
> So you instead decide to lash out at the first person who comes
> along? ...
Reality check: this guy is definitely *NOT* the first person to come
along. He's about the 50th. If he were the first person to come along, I
wouldn't be saying "I'm not going to take it anymore." "Anymore"
suggests that I've been there and done that, and done it enough that I
know I don't want to do it again.
By the way, the only way I can completely avoid having the 51st person
come along and tell me I'm not being a proper native american is to
completely avoid all human interaction. Because inevitably, with the
dominant culture's closet fascination with spirituality, the subject of
Native Americans will come up. And when I start talking about something
I'm intimiately familiar with, there is a chance someone will go haywire
and tell me I'm lying because the spirit of Sitting Bull came to them in
their sleep and told them otherwise.
I'm not about to lock myself in a closet and avoid all human interaction
because I don't want to deal with the 51st fellow to think I'm a liar
because I won't play the Native American part they expect me to.
> ... There are better ways to fix it. If you start shouting, no one
> will hear you. Make a good impression and people keep listening.
> Diplomacy is the key.
Sometimes, though, diplomacy is *not* the key.
Expecting diplomacy with another person who refuses to change, and all
you are expecting is that I change while the other person gets his way.
That's not being a diplomat; that's being a doormat.
Further, changing who I am (even if it's just changing the tone of my
words to suit you) costs me. It costs me time, mindfulness while I check
my words to make sure they are "diplomatic", and it costs me to some
degree who I am--because I have to change my sharp reaction to this sort
of attack by either unlearning or negating the experiences I listed
above, or changing how I feel about those experiences.
And sometimes paying that price is not worth it for the person I'm
dealing with.
While we do not have consensus, it is clear that a number of people feel
as I do that the fellow I was replying to was being a jerk. (Remember:
this was the third go around, not the first.)
Should I pay a price to this person and change who I am, because he was
being a jerk, and because after two other posts where I tried to
patiently explain what was going on, he still didn't get it?
> > So as long as you keep telling me that I'm not a proper Indian because I
> > don't "project the correct energy" or feed you the correct platitudes, I
> > will continue to treat you exactly as I see you: as an incredibly rude
> > self-centered mother-fucking asshole who really deserves a swift kick to
> > the ass.
>
> Wm.F.Tucker was simply saying that his ability to get some image of the
> cultural background of a person wasn't working with you. He didn't say
> that you weren't Native, as far as I can recall.
Look; I don't mean to beat a dead horse here; what Mr. Tucker thinks of
me is sort of irrelevant here, except to say that we didn't have just
the one exchange where he said he couldn't get a "vibe" off of me.
But for you to suggest that I didn't reply within the bounds of reason,
or that I should change and become a doormat for all the William Tuckers
out there (of whom he is just the latest in a long line), well, let's
just say I think I will pass on your suggestion.
If you wish to practice being a doormat^H^H^H^H^H^H^H diplomat, be my
guest.
We all have our paths, and I think I will continue to walk mine.
That's what this whole reply of mine is about, by the way: I have my
path. I'm walking my path. I do not tolerate fools who tell me that my
path is wrong, or who try to convince me--either in the name of "being a
proper Native American" or in the name of "diplomacy"--that I must alter
my path to suit their expectations.
cyberwollf
>
> "cyberwollf" <cyber...@ndak.net> wrote in message
> news:u7jeag9...@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > "Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:fs9e8.25$Bp4....@news.uswest.net...
> > >
> > > So sissies prefer it to taking on real challenges.
> >
> > so anyone willing to give birth isn't a sissy..right?
>
> Usually. Then again, for some, having children is a way to avoid other
> challenges.
>
> I used to work in a school for "at-risk" teens, many of whom were mothers.
> I recall one of them tellling me that she had her baby because that
> guaranteed that there'd be someone in the world who'd love her.
>
aye I heard this a lot from females in my school, while growing up
> Pain isn't always as big a challenge as other risks. One of the
> attractions of masochism is that you're the center of attention. Some
> people prefer being in pain to being ignored.
aye, <ditto marks>
>
> Each of us has a demon more terrifying than all the others. For each of
> us, it may be a different demon.
mine is Pepsi.
I banish it daily.
they still make it though.
cyberwollf
cyberwollf
then again I might not have.
*checks her map*
ah ok.
thank you.
cyberwollf
tracy
thought you did comport yourself with dignity, even diplomacy.
(imho)
Tracy
tracy
> Pathwork is related to the groups in Virginia, New York
> and California...Donovan and Susan Thesenga wrote some
> books and Eva Pierrakos and her husband wrote some
> books as well...John Pierrakos used to do work with
> Wilhelm Reich, who worked with Freund and Jung before
> thier split...Reich went on to explore energy and how it related
> to manifestations of mental illness...who knows what happened
> to the other two...;-)
Then I suspect the term orginated with the Kabbalah. They
probably just lifted it and applied it to thei system.
> >
> > I thought pathworking was a kabbalah technique.
>
> I don't know anything about the kabbalah, except that some of
> the entities that I work with use some of the symbolism....but I've
> not studied it.....you'd have to ask Colin or Josh to comment...or
> mr nagasiva...
That's ok, I know what it is.
> Teaching assumes that I'm not getting anything from the conversation...
> and that I'm myself not learning...to work from the core invites growth
> for both parties....I prefer the term dance....that's what I'm doing...
No, you are not dancing. Dancing has more joy to it.
Dancing minds its own business more. It can be synchronized,
but it cannot control and still be what it is.
Dancing is purely celebration. What you have been
doing is *not*.
So you want to "invite growth for both parties." That
sounds like a euphemism for trying to teach somebody
something.
Just my uninvited opinion.
Tracy
(doing an uninvited opinion dance)
oh, the irony.
William Tucker
"tracy" <tra...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:e0458ec1.02022...@posting.google.com...
how ironic....
Wm
William Edward Woody
*blush*
Thanks,
tra...@pipeline.com
>> No, you are not dancing. Dancing has more joy to it.
>> Dancing minds its own business more. It can be synchronized,
>> but it cannot control and still be what it is.
>> Dancing is purely celebration. What you have been
>> doing is *not*.
>>
>> So you want to "invite growth for both parties." That
>> sounds like a euphemism for trying to teach somebody
>> something.
>
>how ironic....
>
> Wm
But I don't think you got my point
tra...@pipeline.com
What is your opinion about Kabbalistic pathworking?
Tom
<tra...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:3c7b06cd...@news.lvcablemodem.com...
sissies
> >who do pathwork.
>
> What is your opinion about Kabbalistic pathworking?
It's good for sissies. Low risk, high entertainment value, easy to learn,
and even has socially redeemable content. Risk-takers may find it a bit
tame, but learning to tolerate a certain amount of quiet reflection and
introspection is good for adrenalin junkies anyway.
Great for learning Kabbalistic symbolism.
Excellent visualization practice, especially if you want to do any scrying.
Versatile and convenient. Can be done in both group and individual
settings with very little paraphernalia.
But don't get your expectations too high. It's only a Yesodic mind-game.
Asiya
By that, I assume you mean that there is usually no real growth
involved?
Quant_OM
"Asiya"
> > > > sissies who do pathwork.
> > >
> > > Why do you say that?
> >
> > Because pathwork is an imaginary exercise. It entails no real risk.
It's similar to the excitement of going to a scary movie. Vivid imagery,
but nobody's really going to get hurt.
>
> By that, I assume you mean that there is usually no real growth involved?
Alloted to Yetzirah, illusions, imagery, emotional
sphere of Luna. Most people never advance past
it. The demons of self to be confronted to advance
to the Briatic are painstakingly to real for the dreamer.
You could then see how quickly the lie can build
upon itslef, couldn't you, Dixie? Illusion upon Illusion
upon Illusion. Sound familiar?
William Tucker
<tra...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:3c7b067f...@news.lvcablemodem.com...
yes that's true...
Wm
William Tucker
Wm
tra...@pipeline.com
On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 21:08:44 -0800, "Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
><tra...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
>news:3c7b06cd...@news.lvcablemodem.com...
>> On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:18:51 -0800, "Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net>
>wrote:
>> >
>> >Sure it is. Plenty of sissies do pathwork. In fact, it's mainly
>sissies
>> >who do pathwork.
>>
>> What is your opinion about Kabbalistic pathworking?
>
>It's good for sissies. Low risk, high entertainment value, easy to learn,
>and even has socially redeemable content. Risk-takers may find it a bit
>tame, but learning to tolerate a certain amount of quiet reflection and
>introspection is good for adrenalin junkies anyway.
heh. I suspect you're right - as in zen-type contemplation?
What types of risks do you mean? Like summoning things?
>
>Great for learning Kabbalistic symbolism.
>
>Excellent visualization practice, especially if you want to do any scrying.
>
>Versatile and convenient. Can be done in both group and individual
>settings with very little paraphernalia.
>
>But don't get your expectations too high. It's only a Yesodic mind-game.
Interesting.
Tom
"Asiya" <asiya_...@MEATBALLSmindspring.com> wrote in message
> > real risk. It's similar to the excitement of going to a scary
> > movie. Vivid imagery, but nobody's really going to get hurt.
>
> By that, I assume you mean that there is usually no real growth
> involved?
No, I don't mean that. There are things to be gained from pathworking. It
helps develop skills that are used in many magical operations. It gives
one an opportunity to get a better feel for kabbalistic symbolism as a
dynamic system in the mind of the magician.
By saying that pathworking is for sissies, I'm pointing out that one
needn't be especially courageous to do it. It's no more dangerous than
seeing a movie.
Tom
<tra...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:3c7ba66...@news.lvcablemodem.com...
>
> heh. I suspect you're right - as in zen-type contemplation?
> What types of risks do you mean? Like summoning things?
Naw. There's not much real risk to that either, though it does appear
scarier.
The real risks in magick are those operations in which you actually have to
change your life.
Quant_OM
Comfort, the demon of stasis. Very well put.