B.O.T.A. Course
Brian Dare and Kristie A
Jamie Kerr wrote:
>
> I've been considering signing-up for B.O.T.A.'s correspondance
> course. Does anyone have any experience with this course?
> Comments?
>
> J.K.
I had minimal experience with it, as a member of a BOTA study group,
though I did not actually ever join BOTA personally.
I think it is an excellent course, from what little I know, and is
highly respected by many students and teachers of Tarot.
BOTA has some excellent audio cassettes available, so if you're not
sure, you might want to order some and see how you feel about them at
that point. Of course, if you haven't already done so, you might want
to also check out their website at:
http://www.atanda.com/bota/default.html
In LVX,
BD
Robert Word
Jamie Kerr wrote:
>
> I've been considering signing-up for B.O.T.A.'s correspondance
> course. Does anyone have any experience with this course?
> Comments?
>
> J.K.
They are at 5105 North Figueroa St. in Los Angeles. Their present Chief
is Will Chesterman of New Zealand. Their U.S. representative is Goeff
Goble (president of the Board) who lives in San Jose in the Willow Glen
district.
Definitely sign up. The course is excellent. Stick with it.
Jamie Kerr
dark...@swbell.net
I have been a member of B.O.T.A. off and on (as finances permitted) for
several years. I highly recommend the group for at least what I have
been through so far, and my conversations with others who have
participated in the group for a lot longer (some up to 10 years) claim
that it only gets better.
If you want to study one perspective (but a highly comprehensive one) on
the tarot, take the opportunity to join this group.
Ranson
l...@barefactsbbs.com
KM>Jamie Kerr wrote:
KM>>
KM>> I've been considering signing-up for B.O.T.A.'s correspondance
KM>> course. Does anyone have any experience with this course?
KM>> Comments?
KM>>
KM>> J.K.
KM>I had minimal experience with it, as a member of a BOTA study group,
KM>though I did not actually ever join BOTA personally.
KM>I think it is an excellent course, from what little I know, and is
KM>highly respected by many students and teachers of Tarot.
KM>BOTA has some excellent audio cassettes available, so if you're not
KM>sure, you might want to order some and see how you feel about them at
KM>that point. Of course, if you haven't already done so, you might want
KM>to also check out their website at:
KM>http://www.atanda.com/bota/default.html
KM>In LVX,
KM>BD
What is BOTA?
*****************************************************************
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* Telnet: barefactsbbs.com - Email: use...@barefactsbbs.com *
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Brian Dare and Kristie A
l...@barefactsbbs.com wrote:
> What is BOTA?
> *****************************************************************
> * Sent from: The Bare Facts BBS - Fort Worth, Texas, USA *
> * Telnet: barefactsbbs.com - Email: use...@barefactsbbs.com *
> *****************************************************************
BOTA is the Builders of the Adytum, founded by Paul Foster Case, which
is an offshoot of a Golden Dawn temple in Chicago formed just after the
turn of the century. They teach home-study Tarot, and related Qabalah,
courses.
In LVX,
BD
A.Pe.S.
>BOTA is the Builders of the Adytum, founded by Paul Foster Case, which
>is an offshoot of a Golden Dawn temple in Chicago formed just after the
>turn of the century. They teach home-study Tarot, and related Qabalah,
>courses.
Yes, but the hell is an Adytum, and why would anyone want to build
one? (serious question!)
joshua geller
In article <330E4E...@ix.netcom.com>,
>> What is BOTA?
>> *****************************************************************
>> * Sent from: The Bare Facts BBS - Fort Worth, Texas, USA *
>> * Telnet: barefactsbbs.com - Email: use...@barefactsbbs.com *
>> *****************************************************************
>BOTA is the Builders of the Adytum, founded by Paul Foster Case, which
>is an offshoot of a Golden Dawn temple in Chicago formed just after the
>turn of the century. They teach home-study Tarot, and related Qabalah,
>courses.
...and they provide the information available in the regardie book
for a mere three or four times the price.
josh
Frater S.A.
A.Pe.S. <io...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<330ebc12...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
> >BOTA is the Builders of the Adytum, founded by Paul Foster Case, which
> >is an offshoot of a Golden Dawn temple in Chicago formed just after the
> >turn of the century. They teach home-study Tarot, and related Qabalah,
> >courses.
>
> Yes, but the hell is an Adytum, and why would anyone want to build
> one? (serious question!)
The word 'Builders' comes from the Hebrew 'Bonaim', a term used by the
Essenes. The Adytum was the Innermost room of the temple said to be the
dwelling place of deity. Esoterically, it refers to a structure in the
brain which is latent in homo sapiens. BOTA is a disseminator of the
Qabalah, which can be considered to be a science of the stars. Thus a
'Builder of the Adytum' is one who alters his physiology to a point where he
or she has contact with the force of the stars, and is a conscious center of
expression for Deity.
Frater S.A.
joshua geller <dcl...@best.com> wrote in article
<5emc2j$b...@shellx.best.com>...
> >BOTA is the Builders of the Adytum, founded by Paul Foster Case, which
> >is an offshoot of a Golden Dawn temple in Chicago formed just after the
> >turn of the century. They teach home-study Tarot, and related Qabalah,
> >courses.
>
> ...and they provide the information available in the regardie book
> for a mere three or four times the price.
Nope, they provide far, far more. Regardie's book does not have 5% of
the information on the Tarot available in the course. I would also venture
to say that Regardie's work doesn't compare with their alchemical content
either. Needless to say, another advantage of the BOTA work is that it is
structured in such a way to make assimilation possible. The most important
element in any spiritual study is the intensity of practice multiplied by
the time at that intensity. I've talked to many people about this, and they
feel that receiving regular graded lessons on a periodic basis has been
essential to their beginning studies.
joshua geller
In article <01bc20dd$27b70ba0$0100...@stone.diac.com>,
Frater S.A. <st...@diac.com> wrote:
>joshua geller <dcl...@best.com> wrote in article
><5emc2j$b...@shellx.best.com>...
>> >BOTA is the Builders of the Adytum, founded by Paul Foster Case, which
>> >is an offshoot of a Golden Dawn temple in Chicago formed just after the
>> >turn of the century. They teach home-study Tarot, and related Qabalah,
>> >courses.
>> ...and they provide the information available in the regardie book
>> for a mere three or four times the price.
> Nope, they provide far, far more.
whatever. so are you getting a cut for helping them with their
marketing?
if you aren't, you should.
josh
Frater S.A.
> whatever. so are you getting a cut for helping them with their
> marketing?
>
> if you aren't, you should.
:-)
dark...@swbell.net
You really should get a cut of something, however, from experience
everything you have said about BOTA is true. I haven't gone that far
into their material (only two years worth of studies) but what I have
received is worth every dime I put into it. The structure of their
courses are perfect, though I admit a bit of impatience at times since
the material was SO good that I couldn't wait until the next lesson came
in the mail. I have studied both the G.D. material as well as Crowley's
material (being an OTO member myself) and nothing compares to the BOTA
tarot information from either one. I back your observations 100% to
anyone that would suggest otherwise.
Darkfire
Gratuitous Pseudonym
>The word 'Builders' comes from the Hebrew 'Bonaim', a term used by the
>Essenes. The Adytum was the Innermost room of the temple said to be the
>dwelling place of deity. Esoterically, it refers to a structure in the
>brain which is latent in homo sapiens.
That sounds more like crypto-physiology than esotericism. Can you point out
this latent structure and what you think it is supposed to do?
>BOTA is a disseminator of the Qabalah, which can be considered to be a
>science of the stars.
There's another one you'll have to explain. Qabalah as astrophysics.
>Thus a 'Builder of the Adytum' is one who alters his physiology to a point
>where he or she has contact with the force of the stars, and is a conscious
>center of expression for Deity.
Are you sure you're not talking about Scientology?
Gratuitous Pseudonym
In article <330F8B...@swbell.net>, dark...@swbell.net wrote:
>Frater S.A. wrote:
>You really should get a cut of something, however, from experience
>everything you have said about BOTA is true. I haven't gone that far
>into their material (only two years worth of studies) but what I have
>received is worth every dime I put into it. The structure of their
>courses are perfect, though I admit a bit of impatience at times since
>the material was SO good that I couldn't wait until the next lesson came
>in the mail. I have studied both the G.D. material as well as Crowley's
>material (being an OTO member myself) and nothing compares to the BOTA
>tarot information from either one. I back your observations 100% to
>anyone that would suggest otherwise.
I have seen some of the BOTA material and I think it is a respectable course.
My only problem with it is that they use the Waite/Coleman-Smith design,
which, to my mind, is somewhat careless with its esoteric symbolism and
contains some deliberately false attributions. For example, the Fool card,
which is associated with the path from Kether to Chokmah, pictures the white
sun of Kether to the right of the card, while the path itself is positioned
with Kether to the left. A false attribution of trumps to paths is implied.
Wizard
>I have seen some of the BOTA material and I think it is a respectable course.
>My only problem with it is that they use the Waite/Coleman-Smith design,
>which, to my mind, is somewhat careless with its esoteric symbolism and
>contains some deliberately false attributions. For example, the Fool card,
>which is associated with the path from Kether to Chokmah, pictures the white
>sun of Kether to the right of the card, while the path itself is positioned
>with Kether to the left. A false attribution of trumps to paths is implied.
Although it is very similar to the Rider Waite deck, the BOTA is definiely
NOT the same.
Wizard
Robert Word
The BOTA Tarot Deck is not copyrighted. You may freely publish and sell
copies of any and all of the cards in the deck, without needing
permission from anyone.
It would be nice if some enterprising entrepreneur out there would
publish an "enlarged" version of the deck. Please note that the
proportions should be root 3 to 1 (see the Great Work).
I believe that the Waite deck IS copyrighted, and that the copyright is
currently owned by U.S. Games Systems.
Waite created a second deck for use in his private group, which has
never been published or publically disseminated. I would wager that few
readers have seen it.
Kheph Ra
Gratuitous Pseudonym <d...@e-z.net> wrote in article
<5esnb9$5...@work2.e-z.net>...
> I have seen some of the BOTA material and I think it is a respectable
course.
> My only problem with it is that they use the Waite/Coleman-Smith design,
> which, to my mind, is somewhat careless with its esoteric symbolism and
> contains some deliberately false attributions. For example, the Fool
card,
> which is associated with the path from Kether to Chokmah, pictures the
white
> sun of Kether to the right of the card, while the path itself is
positioned
> with Kether to the left. A false attribution of trumps to paths is
implied.
generic non-Thelemic "error" [IMHO] on the Tzaddi-Heh Emperor-Star issue).
The Tree of Life is not the only model which was used in determining the
trump designs.
As a matter of fact, the details are anything BUT sloppy -- they are
incredibly subtle at times. The Cube of Space (based on attributions give
in the Sepher Yetzirah) is intimately connected to these particular trump
designs. There are other elements intentionally incorporated. For example,
the Sun is in the same corner as the Scorpio Kerub in Keys 10 and 21 --
these four Kerubim being attributed to the four quarters in a traditional
fashion replicated on many things from Tarot cards to GD charters and
warrants. It is intending to show, among other things, that the one
Creative Light of Aleph is the same force represented by the Scorpio
centers of the body.
These are, of course, just a few points taken out of context. The point
was, merely, that the designs, though not always obvious in their meanings,
are nonetheless anything but sloppy.
--
93 93/93
JAE
"It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling
exception,
is composed of others." --John Andrew Holmes
Nick Farrell
In article <5esnb9$5...@work2.e-z.net>, Gratuitous Pseudonym <duo@e-
z.net> writes
>In article <330F8B...@swbell.net>, dark...@swbell.net wrote:
>>Frater S.A. wrote:
>
>>You really should get a cut of something, however, from experience
>>everything you have said about BOTA is true. I haven't gone that far
>>into their material (only two years worth of studies) but what I have
>>received is worth every dime I put into it. The structure of their
>>courses are perfect, though I admit a bit of impatience at times since
>>the material was SO good that I couldn't wait until the next lesson came
>>in the mail. I have studied both the G.D. material as well as Crowley's
>>material (being an OTO member myself) and nothing compares to the BOTA
>>tarot information from either one. I back your observations 100% to
>>anyone that would suggest otherwise.
>
>My only problem with it is that they use the Waite/Coleman-Smith design,
>which, to my mind, is somewhat careless with its esoteric symbolism and
>contains some deliberately false attributions. For example, the Fool card,
>which is associated with the path from Kether to Chokmah, pictures the white
>sun of Kether to the right of the card, while the path itself is positioned
>with Kether to the left. A false attribution of trumps to paths is implied.
>
the attributed direction to each card rather than its position of the
tree. BOTA uses a deck that is a lot clearer than Rider/Waite and there
are some changes....
--
Nick Farrell
Gratuitous Pseudonym
>The BOTA Tarot Deck is not copyrighted. You may freely publish and sell
>copies of any and all of the cards in the deck, without needing
>permission from anyone.
One of its best features.
>Waite created a second deck for use in his private group, which has
>never been published or publically disseminated. I would wager that few
>readers have seen it.
I've never seen such a deck. How many were made, to your knowledge?
Care to describe some of the differences?
Robert Word
Kheph Ra wrote:
>
> Gratuitous Pseudonym <d...@e-z.net> wrote in article
> <5esnb9$5...@work2.e-z.net>...
> course.
> > My only problem with it is that they use the Waite/Coleman-Smith design,
> > which, to my mind, is somewhat careless with its esoteric symbolism and
> > contains some deliberately false attributions. For example, the Fool
> card,
> > which is associated with the path from Kether to Chokmah, pictures the
> white
> > sun of Kether to the right of the card, while the path itself is
> positioned
> > with Kether to the left. A false attribution of trumps to paths is
> implied.
>
> generic non-Thelemic "error" [IMHO] on the Tzaddi-Heh Emperor-Star issue).
> The Tree of Life is not the only model which was used in determining the
> trump designs.
>
> As a matter of fact, the details are anything BUT sloppy -- they are
> incredibly subtle at times. The Cube of Space (based on attributions give
> in the Sepher Yetzirah) is intimately connected to these particular trump
> designs. There are other elements intentionally incorporated. For example,
> the Sun is in the same corner as the Scorpio Kerub in Keys 10 and 21 --
> these four Kerubim being attributed to the four quarters in a traditional
> fashion replicated on many things from Tarot cards to GD charters and
> warrants. It is intending to show, among other things, that the one
> Creative Light of Aleph is the same force represented by the Scorpio
> centers of the body.
>
> These are, of course, just a few points taken out of context. The point
> was, merely, that the designs, though not always obvious in their meanings,
> are nonetheless anything but sloppy.
>
> --
> 93 93/93
> JAE
>
> "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling
> exception,
> is composed of others." --John Andrew Holmes
Dear JAE,
In general I agree with your remarks. With regard to your allusion to
GD charters, I would point out that such charters are not valid unless
issued under proper authorities, viz., the Grade of 7-4. I also point
out that Paul A. Clark never received 7-4 in BOTA, or anywhere, and that
his fabrication of such a document for Aima Lodge #1 of FLO was an
invalid production. The theory of "assumption of grade" because of
"assumption of office" is without warrent or validity in the GD
tradition.
You are also probably aware that Paul A. Clark published his "last
advancement date" in the 1970's, even though he was made a 5-6 in BOTA
little more than a year before his expulsion. The published date was
his portal advancement. Does this mean that Paul A. Clark considered
his 5-6 invalid? In any case, in terms of either GD or BOTA derived
authorities, his present claims are unsupported, as I have pointed out
to you before. I believe that a careful study of Mr. Crowley's works
will confirm my view, as Aleister Crowley knew very well the truth in
these matters.
Now I am not intending to attack Paul A. Clark, only to tell the truth
regarding these matters.
LVX,
REW, 7=4
MARGARET MARY-THERESA BROWN, SUNY BUFFALO
In article <01bc2317$534b6040$1b5b2299@default>, "Kheph Ra" <nu...@thelema.org> writes:
>Gratuitous Pseudonym <d...@e-z.net> wrote in article
><5esnb9$5...@work2.e-z.net>...
> It is intending to show, among other things, that the one
>Creative Light of Aleph is the same force represented by the Scorpio
>centers of the body.
What are the Scorpio centers of the body?
- Peggy -
Pat Zalewski
I
>The BOTA Tarot Deck is not copyrighted. You may freely publish and sell
>copies of any and all of the cards in the deck, without needing
>permission from anyone.
>
>publish an "enlarged" version of the deck. Please note that the
>proportions should be root 3 to 1 (see the Great Work).
>
>I believe that the Waite deck IS copyrighted, and that the copyright is
>currently owned by U.S. Games Systems.
>
>never been published or publically disseminated. I would wager that few
>readers have seen it.
Bob
Tell you an interesting story. When Regardie came to New Zealand he was
astonished to find out that the Golden Dawn tarot deck that I have from Whare
Ra were copyrighted years before Wang published. Wonder who owns the copyright
here?
pat
Tomas Stacewicz
Tomas Stacewicz
Robert Word <WO...@TIW.COM> wrote:
With regard to your allusion to
>GD charters, I would point out that such charters are not valid unless
>issued under proper authorities, viz., the Grade of 7-4.
Dear Robert Word,
We all know that Mathers and Westcott only was nominally 7=4:s when
they issued the charter for the Isis-Urania Temple and all the other
Temples as well. And regarding the 7=4 of Frau. Sprengle....well, we
also know fairly well that this was a fabrication made up to suite the
purpose of these gentlemen.
So the actual tradition as to what grade is suitable for chartering
Temples (or at least continuing a valid successory line) i the GD is
the 5=6. Felkin "only" was an 5=6 (if I am not mistaken) when he
chartered the first Temples in the Stella Matutina. Dion Fortune
"only" was an 5=6 when she continued the tradition (and according to
many an valid one) under the guise of the Fraternity of the Inner
Light. And again, Robert, Regardie "only" was an 5=6 ( which has been
proven thanks to you) when he established a valid successiory line of
the GD-tradition in the US.
L.V.X.
Tomas Stacewicz
Frater S.A.
> Robert Word <WO...@TIW.COM> wrote:
>
> > With regard to your allusion to
> >GD charters, I would point out that such charters are not valid unless
> >out that Paul A. Clark never received 7-4 in BOTA, or anywhere, and that
So what? BOTA doesn't give 7=4. Once one has achieved 5=6, not just in
paper or in ritual, but in consciousness, it is between them and God whether
they advance further. Beyond that, one can found an order when they choose.
They don't even need a 5=6. To my understanding, the FLO does very good
work, and I also understand that Paul Clark is a genuine channel for that
work. Although I don't know him personally, I have seen certain documents
and talked to certain people and that has been enough for me to vouch for
him.
Even beyond all that, BOTA is *not* a GD order. Yes, it does teach
certain material which was taught in the GD, but the rituals have been
rewritten ... all of the teachings are original or have been restructured,
and the contacts which have left the GD tradition have moved on into that
outer vehicle known as BOTA. The Golden Dawn served its purpose. The
teachings evolve. I have seen nothing up to this point to convince me that
the Golden Dawn is anything but dead.
Nick Farrell
In article <331469...@TIW.COM>, Robert Word <WO...@TIW.COM> writes
>Kheph Ra wrote:
>>
>> Gratuitous Pseudonym <d...@e-z.net> wrote in article
>> <5esnb9$5...@work2.e-z.net>...
>> course.
>> > My only problem with it is that they use the Waite/Coleman-Smith design,
>> > which, to my mind, is somewhat careless with its esoteric symbolism and
>> > contains some deliberately false attributions. For example, the Fool
>> card,
>> > which is associated with the path from Kether to Chokmah, pictures the
>> white
>> > sun of Kether to the right of the card, while the path itself is
>> positioned
>> > with Kether to the left. A false attribution of trumps to paths is
>> implied.
>>
>> No, there is no false attribution of trumps to paths (other than the
>> generic non-Thelemic "error" [IMHO] on the Tzaddi-Heh Emperor-Star issue).
>> The Tree of Life is not the only model which was used in determining the
>> trump designs.
>>
>> As a matter of fact, the details are anything BUT sloppy -- they are
>> incredibly subtle at times. The Cube of Space (based on attributions give
>> in the Sepher Yetzirah) is intimately connected to these particular trump
>> designs. There are other elements intentionally incorporated. For example,
>> the Sun is in the same corner as the Scorpio Kerub in Keys 10 and 21 --
>> these four Kerubim being attributed to the four quarters in a traditional
>> fashion replicated on many things from Tarot cards to GD charters and
>> Creative Light of Aleph is the same force represented by the Scorpio
>> centers of the body.
>>
>> was, merely, that the designs, though not always obvious in their meanings,
>> are nonetheless anything but sloppy.
>>
>> --
>> 93 93/93
>> JAE
>>
>> "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling
>> exception,
>> is composed of others." --John Andrew Holmes
>
>Dear JAE,
>
>issued under proper authorities, viz., the Grade of 7-4. I also point
>out that Paul A. Clark never received 7-4 in BOTA, or anywhere, and that
>invalid production. The theory of "assumption of grade" because of
>"assumption of office" is without warrent or validity in the GD
>tradition.
>
>You are also probably aware that Paul A. Clark published his "last
>advancement date" in the 1970's, even though he was made a 5-6 in BOTA
>little more than a year before his expulsion. The published date was
>his portal advancement. Does this mean that Paul A. Clark considered
>his 5-6 invalid? In any case, in terms of either GD or BOTA derived
>authorities, his present claims are unsupported, as I have pointed out
>to you before. I believe that a careful study of Mr. Crowley's works
>will confirm my view, as Aleister Crowley knew very well the truth in
>these matters.
>
>Now I am not intending to attack Paul A. Clark, only to tell the truth
>regarding these matters.
>
>LVX,
>REW, 7=4
I can only assume that this is someone who is not really Robert Word
replying to this message. Robert Word has denied publically that he
holds the 7=4 (I have the posts) although he did admit he bought the
grade he had the humility to admit he had not truly gained what that
grade meant.
Therefore it is unlikely that the Robert Word who has posted in the past
would dare accuse someone else of not being a real 7=4, this being a
prime case of the pot calling the kettle black.
I can only assume that once again we are dealing with an imposter.
--
Nick Farrell
Robert Word
Nick Farrell: Yellow press journalist and liar.
Kheph Ra
Cute, Nick. Real cute.
--
93 93/93
JAE
"It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling
exception,
is composed of others." --John Andrew Holmes
Nick Farrell <ed...@edfu.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<OHy49CAe...@edfu.demon.co.uk>...
Robert Word
Tomas Stacewicz wrote:
>
> Robert Word <WO...@TIW.COM> wrote:
>
> With regard to your allusion to
> >GD charters, I would point out that such charters are not valid unless
> >issued under proper authorities, viz., the Grade of 7-4.
>
>
> We all know that Mathers and Westcott only was nominally 7=4:s when
> they issued the charter for the Isis-Urania Temple and all the other
> Temples as well. And regarding the 7=4 of Frau. Sprengle....well, we
> also know fairly well that this was a fabrication made up to suite the
> purpose of these gentlemen.
>
> So the actual tradition as to what grade is suitable for chartering
> Temples (or at least continuing a valid successory line) i the GD is
> the 5=6. Felkin "only" was an 5=6 (if I am not mistaken) when he
> chartered the first Temples in the Stella Matutina. Dion Fortune
> "only" was an 5=6 when she continued the tradition (and according to
> many an valid one) under the guise of the Fraternity of the Inner
> Light. And again, Robert, Regardie "only" was an 5=6 ( which has been
> proven thanks to you) when he established a valid successiory line of
> the GD-tradition in the US.
>
> L.V.X.
>
> Tomas Stacewicz
Dear Tomas,
Again, Tomas, I am only stating what was the view within the Golden Dawn
itself with respect to chartered Temples. That view was that the
authorities contained within the grade of 7-4 were required for validly
chartering Temples. All valid warrants and charters contain the
signature of a 7-4. See, for example, the charter of Temple no. 4 of
the G.D., which has been published elsewhere.
Undoubtedly, S.L. Mathers claimed the Grade of 7-4, and he conferred it
on others. For example, he conferred the 7-4 with full ceremony on the
Lockwoods, who founded the G.D. in America. Paul Case (who was never
advanced beyond 5-6) went on record as stating that he thought 7-4
conferrals to be bad magick (letter to F.I.R.).
Francis Israel Regardie was well aware of this fact, and he chided Paul
Foster Case for founding unauthorized Temples (Case was only a 5-6 from
A.O., a fact well known to Regardie.) Paul Case's reply was that he had
been authorized by someone whom he considered an Adept (although Case
did not state that he had himself acquired any authorities.)
Paul A. Clark is known to have signed documents as 7-4 (honorary). This
refers to his assumption of grade because of assumption of office.
I.e., having appointed himself Prolocutor, and later Prolocutor General,
of his own concoction, he automatically became a 7-4. However, this is
not a view which is supported within the G.D. itself. Incidentally,
Paul A. Clark expelled Grand Chiefs of the FLO who failed to support his
unconstitutional assumption of the office of Prolocutor General within
FLO. Thus, there is more than one FLO: a)The original FLO and b)the FLO
created by Paul A. Clark in order to make himself the dictatorial chief
of an Order. The FLO underwent schisms years ago. Jim Eshelman's
claims in fact stem from this schismatic FLO, and not from the AO. His
allusion to AO was to add an aura to himself which does not exist.
Mathers claimed that his authorities stemmed from valid Initiations into
the Tradition, although it is not clear that historical studies have yet
fully resolved the question of precisely the object of his claims.
Today a number of groups, such as FLO of Paul A. Clark, claim that the
authorities for the Tradition reside in the Grade of 5-6. This is
certainly not the view which was held within the Golden Dawn. It is
also a pragmatically convenient view for expelled 5-6 members from BOTA,
such as Paul A. Clark, for as you correctly point out, BOTA ritually
confers no grade above 5-6. However, there is a tradition of Higher
Grades transmitted among the Chiefs of BOTA; however, this tradition
would have been unknown to Paul A. Clark, since he was never either a
Chief, or a Steward, within BOTA.
I would like to point out that these various viewpoints constitute
sectarian differences. But I think it is useful to refer to the views
which were actually held within the Golden Dawn in order to evaluate
claims of "lineage" from the GD. As I said, the full authorities did
not exist in the 5-6 in the GD, at least according to the views which
existed within the Order itself. However, Paul A. Clark is quite at
liberty to make up whatever material of his own he wishes; I have seen
that particular 5-6 material, and I admit that some of it is good.
LVX,
REW
Al Billings
Robert Word (WO...@TIW.COM) wrote:
: Nick Farrell wrote:
: >
: > In article <331469...@TIW.COM>, Robert Word <WO...@TIW.COM> writes
: > >GD charters, I would point out that such charters are not valid unless
: > >out that Paul A. Clark never received 7-4 in BOTA, or anywhere, and that
: > >his fabrication of such a document for Aima Lodge #1 of FLO was an
: > >"assumption of office" is without warrent or validity in the GD
: Nick Farrell: Yellow press journalist and liar.
My! What a witty and informative retort!
Are you claiming the 7=4 Grade, Word?
--
====================================================================
Magic Code: MHE/MPA S++ W++ N++ PNO++ Dr+ A a+ C G QH++>+++ 666+ y
Al Billings http://www.hermetic.com/
demi...@hermetic.com http://www.memoria.com/
mi...@memoria.com Iconoclast, Net.God, Geek
====================================================================
Robert Word
Frater S.A. wrote:
>
> Even beyond all that, BOTA is *not* a GD order. Yes, it does teach
> certain material which was taught in the GD, but the rituals have been
> rewritten ...
I am in possession of the BOTA Chapter Rituals and also the original AO
Temple rituals.
Paul Foster Case extensively plagiarized the AO ritual in the 0-0 of
BOTA. Some 90 per cent of the BOTA Ritual was written by SL MacGregor
Mathers. Word after word, line after line, sentence after sentence, are
identical. BOTA got its ritual material, if not its lessons, from AO,
an Order from which Paul Foster Case was expelled. But upon his
expulsion from the Order, Case did return all materials, as required by
his Oath. His later ritual composition was accomplished by memory
alone, a remarkable feat!
Paul A. Clark took an oath before God within BOTA to return all pledged
materials in the event of his Suspension from the Order. Upon his
suspension from the Order, he refused to return said materials. Hence,
he was expelled from BOTA, according to the imprecations of having
violated his Oath of Obligation "as a perjured liar, unfit for the
Society of all upright and true persons."
Paul A. Clark used the materials stolen from BOTA to found his own
Order, and now he applies the same Oath to his own students which he
violated in BOTA. Most of FLO was stolen from BOTA, and reworked by
Grand Chiefs of FLO, later expelled by Paul A. Clark, because they would
not accept his claims to dictatorial control of FLO. Paul A. Clark did
little of the real work, that was done by others whom he expelled based
on false dictatorial claims.
Its a grey situation. And although my statements are true, I am sure
Paul A. Clark is doing some good in his own agenda. Paul A. Clark
cannot be condemned for violating his Oath of Obligation; in the final
analysis, he is responsible to his own conscience. However, Paul A.
Clark's FLO is not the only FLO; there are other surviving societies
from the schism, all equally valid.
joshua geller
>> Even beyond all that, BOTA is *not* a GD order. Yes, it does teach
>> certain material which was taught in the GD, but the rituals have been
>> rewritten ...
>I am in possession of the BOTA Chapter Rituals and also the original AO
>Temple rituals.
jesus fucking christ, robert, take an enema. think of how relieved
tou'll feel.
josh
Kheph Ra
Frater S.A. <st...@diac.com> wrote in article
<01bc253f$41a17940$0100...@stone.diac.com>...
> So what? BOTA doesn't give 7=4. Once one has achieved 5=6, not just
in
> paper or in ritual, but in consciousness, it is between them and God
whether
> they advance further.
What you have stated here is entirely consistent with what Paul Case wrote,
in many places, of the Inner Work beyond the 5=6 Grade. I could quote exact
passages from his course work, confirming this point of view, were these
papers not confidential -- but the general reader can get much the same
idea (if not the details) from reading the last half of his book, THE TRUE
& INVISIBLE ROSICRUCIAN ORDER.
> To my understanding, the FLO does very good
> work, and I also understand that Paul Clark is a genuine channel for that
> work. Although I don't know him personally, I have seen certain
documents
> and talked to certain people and that has been enough for me to vouch for
> him.
Based on personal experience and familiarity, I must agree with this.
> Even beyond all that, BOTA is *not* a GD order. Yes, it does teach
> certain material which was taught in the GD, but the rituals have been
> rewritten ... all of the teachings are original or have been
restructured,
> and the contacts which have left the GD tradition have moved on into that
> outer vehicle known as BOTA. The Golden Dawn served its purpose. The
> teachings evolve. I have seen nothing up to this point to convince me
that
> the Golden Dawn is anything but dead.
This is a very controversial paragraph (not that I mind controversy per
se), with semantics being, I think, more the issue than anything else. By
most people's practical definitions, BOTA *is* 'a GD order.' At the same
time, you are correct that when Paul Case and others founded BOTA, they
claimed (in the 'Little History') that it had no precedent in any prior
outer vehicle. The rituals, though somewhat rewritten, are not dramatically
so -- other than in small details, they conform, for example, to the Cipher
Manuscript outlines and therefore constitute expressions of the same
essential formula. To say it is '*not* a GD order' because 'the rituals
have been rewritten' is to say that the Stella Matutina is 'not a GD order'
-- because the HOGD rituals were certainly somewhat rewritten after the
schism of 1900, with a great deal of new and additional language added,
some of which significantly added new symbolic elements to the rituals. And
yet, the Stella Matutina rituals (which are the rituals originally
published by Regardie in his original Golden Dawn publication) are, in the
minds of most students of such things, usually considered to be THE G.D.
rituals. I can tell you from personal knowledge that the S.M. rituals are
MUCH more divergent from the HOGD rituals than are the BOTA rituals. So if
that is your criterion, I must conclude that you are excluding the S.M., as
well, from being 'a GD order.'
I entirely agree that 'the teachings evolve.' When people say that all or
most of the GD material has been published, they are mostly correct -- as
the Order stood in 1900! But there has been nearly another century of
growth and evolution since then.
The death or expiration of the GD depends, IMO, on whether you mean a
specific organization, or a tradition and spirit. There *are* modern
survivors, directly and authentically linked to the original; and there are
even more modern survivors *almost* directly and authentically linked to
the original. There are also entirely new organizations, of both smaller
and greater size, that have no historical linkage to the original at all.
In all three of these groups, there are those that are doing good,
progressive, honest, ethical, able Work, and those that are doing -- the
opposite. If by the GD you mean one specific organization, then almost none
of these are 'GD orders.' If, however, the GD is viewed as a formula, then
they all are -- good, bad, and indifferent.
Robert Word
Kheph Ra wrote:
>
> Cute, Nick. Real cute.
> --
> 93 93/93
> JAE
>
> "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling
> exception,
> is composed of others." --John Andrew Holmes
>
> > >> 93 93/93
> > >> JAE
> > >>
> > >> "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling
> > >> exception,
> > >> is composed of others." --John Andrew Holmes
> > >
> > >
> > >In general I agree with your remarks. With regard to your allusion to
> > >GD charters, I would point out that such charters are not valid unless
> > >issued under proper authorities, viz., the Grade of 7-4. I also point
> > >out that Paul A. Clark never received 7-4 in BOTA, or anywhere, and that
>
> > >his fabrication of such a document for Aima Lodge #1 of FLO was an
> > >invalid production. The theory of "assumption of grade" because of
> > >"assumption of office" is without warrent or validity in the GD
> > >tradition.
> > >
> > >You are also probably aware that Paul A. Clark published his "last
> > >advancement date" in the 1970's, even though he was made a 5-6 in BOTA
> > >little more than a year before his expulsion. The published date was
> > >his portal advancement. Does this mean that Paul A. Clark considered
> > >his 5-6 invalid? In any case, in terms of either GD or BOTA derived
> > >authorities, his present claims are unsupported, as I have pointed out
> > >to you before. I believe that a careful study of Mr. Crowley's works
> > >will confirm my view, as Aleister Crowley knew very well the truth in
> > >these matters.
> > >
> > >Now I am not intending to attack Paul A. Clark, only to tell the truth
> > >regarding these matters.
> > >
> > >LVX,
> >
Jim Eshelman's claim to an AO lineage is complete and utter balderdash.
Robert Word
But Case plagiarized the 0-0 of AO, not the 0-0 of HOGD.
> So if
> that is your criterion, I must conclude that you are excluding the S.M., as
> well, from being 'a GD order.'
I am not sure whether or not Richard is sufficiently informed to have
any valid judgement in these matters. But I doubt that is what he
meant, JAE.
>
> I entirely agree that 'the teachings evolve.'
Or in this "case", plagiarized.
>When people say that all or
> most of the GD material has been published, they are mostly correct -- as
> the Order stood in 1900! But there has been nearly another century of
> growth and evolution since then.
>
> The death or expiration of the GD depends, IMO, on whether you mean a
> specific organization, or a tradition and spirit. There *are* modern
> survivors, directly and authentically linked to the original;
There you go again with your illegitimate AO lineage claims.
>and there are
> even more modern survivors *almost* directly and authentically linked to
> the original. There are also entirely new organizations, of both smaller
> and greater size, that have no historical linkage to the original at all.
> In all three of these groups, there are those that are doing good,
> progressive, honest, ethical, able Work, and those that are doing -- the
> opposite. If by the GD you mean one specific organization, then almost none
> of these are 'GD orders.' If, however, the GD is viewed as a formula, then
> they all are -- good, bad, and indifferent.
>
> --
> 93 93/93
> JAE
>
> "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling
> exception,
> is composed of others." --John Andrew Holmes
Dear JAE,
In general, once again, I find your comments quite interesting, and I
agree on a number of points.
I would like to reiterate once again, though, that I consider the claims
of yourself and Paul A. Clark to an AO lineage to be complete and utter
balderdash. The AO transmitted its full authorities only in the grade
of 7-4, and these authorities you cannot have obtained from Paul A.
Clark, an expelled BOTA member. And the fact that Paul Foster Case
extensively plagiarized, word for word, an AO ritual for one of his own,
cannot lend credibility to his claim of some other and different line of
authority. For why would a Master have him copy Sam Mather's ritual
word for word, in most points. Case copy-catted Mathers with one hand,
while damning him with the other. The simple, direct, succint
phraseology of the Ritual is Mathers, not Case -- a fact of which,
lacking an authentic AO lineage, you were previously undoubtedly
unaware.
In AO terms, you haven't received the Grades. So make up your own stuff
and call it "Jim Eshelman" Order. I think you would accomplish more by
being honest up front about these things, instead of trying to
illegitimately claim a succession which you do not possess.
As you know, I have tested one of your Chiefs with a question which any
Neophyte of AO could have answered correctly, and neither he nor you
were able to provide correct answer to said question.
Now you can make up any material you please, but please stop claiming
lineage from AO. Lineage from an expelled BOTA member would be slightly
more accurate, don't you think? But even there -- you stand
unauthorized by BOTA.
LVX,
REW
Darkwolf
On Fri, 28 Feb 97 03:54:44 GMT, zi...@ramhb.co.nz (Pat Zalewski)
wrote:
>Ra were copyrighted years before Wang published. Wonder who owns the copyright
>here?
>
>pat
I believe you can order an "enlarged" version of the B.O.T.A. from the
organization itself.
Sar Draconis
A number of years ago, a fellow named Ed Steinbrecher in Santa Fe, who
had an outfit known as "D.O.M.E.", was publishing an "enlarged" version
of the BOTA Tarot deck. The BOTA lawyers called Ed and had the
operation closed down. Unfortunately, apparently, Ed's lawyers were
unaware that the deck is uncopyrighted!
There is an outfit in Santa Cruz, California, known as "artisans of
licht," which publishes its own improved version of the BOTA Tarot. It
appears that the plates for the BOTA Tarot were damaged years ago, and
what is now published by BOTA is not fully accurate or correct in all
details (think what this could be doing to your subconscious mind!).
But you can get a correct version of BOTA Tarot from Artisans! Call
them at (408)423-9892 to order a set of BOTA Tarot!
Also, a number of years ago, an outfit in North Hollywood was
manufacturing BOTA Tarot in the form of jewelry! They were entirely
within their rites in terms of copyright law. Does anyone out there
still have some of the BOTA jewelry?
Ed Steinbrecher was responsible for creating the "Inner Guide
Meditation," a system of self-exploration similar to the Path Workings
of the Golden Dawn. His books might still be in print. Some people
might still have some of the old large Steinbrecher BOTA Tarot laying
around.
Sar Draconis
Pat Zalewski wrote:
>
> In article <5f55l1$bli$1...@news.gu.se>,
> >>GD charters, I would point out that such charters are not valid unless
> >>issued under proper authorities, viz., the Grade of 7-4.
> >
> >
> >We all know that Mathers and Westcott only was nominally 7=4:s when
> >they issued the charter for the Isis-Urania Temple and all the other
> >Temples as well. And regarding the 7=4 of Frau. Sprengle....well, we
> >also know fairly well that this was a fabrication made up to suite the
> >purpose of these gentlemen.
> >
> >So the actual tradition as to what grade is suitable for chartering
> >Temples (or at least continuing a valid successory line) i the GD is
> >the 5=6. Felkin "only" was an 5=6 (if I am not mistaken) when he
> >chartered the first Temples in the Stella Matutina. Dion Fortune
> >"only" was an 5=6 when she continued the tradition (and according to
> >many an valid one) under the guise of the Fraternity of the Inner
> >Light. And again, Robert, Regardie "only" was an 5=6 ( which has been
> >proven thanks to you) when he established a valid successiory line of
> >the GD-tradition in the US.
> >
> >
> >L.V.X.
> >
> >Tomas Stacewicz
> >
>
> The reality of the situation today is that almost everyone who sets up a GD
> temple seesm to immediately claim a 7=4. Whether or not it from apostolic
> succession or not does not seem to matter much. What i have found regarding
> this matter is that if people want to claim this grade then they should have
> the knowledge and guidance that can grade people to that level. Sadly, some
> students who follow people get a more than little dissapointed when they find
> they get to 6=5 and the material given to them is nothing more than a rehash
> of published documents. They get to 7=4 and end up with virtually no
> understanding of the rituals other than what was published. Let's take a look
> at what people should get at 6-5. Full documentation for the GD tarot for a
> start. Drawings and explanations of Trumps and Minor Arcana and I am not
> talking about the minor papers already published. Full comentaries of the
> rituals and diagrams up to at least the Portal. There should be a lot more,
> but these two items should be a solid backbone of teachings at that level. If
> a person is going to claim the rank then he or she better produce the
> documentation to go with it for if no then the grades are hollow and
> meaningless. I would hasten to add that documentation is not the be and end
> al of things but the knowledge and teachings of the higher levels should be
> reflected in a more in depth study of the rituals and tarot. For me , at least
> that is a must. The GD structure was carefully designed to let the student
> cope with specific energies. I persoannly have no quarrel with people claiming
> high gradesas this is between them and their maker, but if they do they should
> have the training andf knowledge to go with it.
>
> Pat
Beyond the 5-6, there is additional magickal work to be accomplished.
This work is an extension of what is in 5-6, although one could not
necessarily deduce what it is by just knowing what is in the 5-6.
Also, the Secret Fratres of the Third Order have developed enhanced work
for the 5-6, which has never been published; today this work is in the
hands of only a few, probably less than two score, people. The
published material is part of a general project for the spiritual
education of humanity at large. Israel Regardie was doing the Great
Work. The enhanced version of the GD will become more widely known in
the coming decades, and it will supersede the preliminary magickal
variants.
Pat Zalewski
Tomas Stacewicz
zi...@ramhb.co.nz (Pat Zalewski) wrote:
>Tom
>Pat
Pat,
I was only stating that the view that the grade of 7=4 is required as
an authority for chartering Temples in the G.D. has seldom been lived
up to in practice and that it has from the start been upheld by
claiming emtpy grades that hasn't been magically substantiated. In my
opinion, the mottoes with the grade of 7=4 attached to them in the
charters which formally authorized the Temples was only a kind of
ornamentation to make them more "valid" and more "authentic".
In the early years of the G.D. there was no magical grades beyond 5=6.
The highest grade before 1900 was that of Theoricus Adeptus Minor. So,
not even all of the subgrades of the 5=6 was in use before the turn of
the century. The higher grades beyond 5=6 was only nominally or
honorary, i.e. not magically conferred.
Later the Stella Matutina and probably the Alfa and Omega created
ceremonies and initiatory grades beyond the 5=6. But these higher
grades was, at least in the S.M., watered down. If I am not mistaken
the S.M. disposed with the subgrades of the 5=6 and took the gradework
of these subgrades into the 6=5 and the 7=4 (I think you wrote it
somewhere). I don't know how the A.O. did with their higher grades,
but my hunch says that something that Paul Foster Case saw or
experienced regarding these higher grades in the A.O. must have made
him higly (and probably rightly) upset which resulted in him having
the opinion that the grades beyond the 5=6 wasn't accessible by formal
'masonic-style' initiations.
So the fact remains that the 'classical' G.D. never had any actual
grades beyond the 5=6 (only in theory). These were later developments,
which accounts for why there is so much diversity according these
higher grades. You have one opinion, Crowey had his, Case yet another,
Word has his, and Mathers.....god only knows what his real opinions
were regarding this. The standardization only goes as far as 5=6. So,
in my opinion this is the only grade that counts regarding 'apostlic
succession'.
I have the highest of admiration for the G.D-tradition. But at the
same time I cannot refuse the fact that Mathers and Westcott was
forced to use higly unorthodox methods (even for G.D. standards) to
initiate this current. And I am glad that they did!
This also shows that likewise unorthodox methods are sometimes
necessary, even today, to keep the tradition alive and receptive for
the guidence of the Third Order.
L.V.X.
Tomas Stacewicz
Robert Word
I reiterate that the statements of Nick Farrell regarding my views
are not accurate, and that he has knowingly made false statements
about me and about my views.
Individuals who wish to obtain an accurate statement of my views may
do so by contacting me directly. The posts of Nick Farrell on this
subject constitute distortion, disinformation, and misinformation,
and deliberately so.
Robert Word
Unfortunately, Paul Foster Case never had access to, nor did he ever
see, any of the A.O. work in subgrades of 5-6 above Z.A.M. Also,
Case did not even have access to all the material in Z.A.M. The
second order curriculum was in great disarray at the time of Case's
initiation, and the document fully outlining the Z.A.M. curriculum
was not available.
To this day, B.O.T.A. works only a very small segment of the Z.A.M.
curriculum, a fact which is not unrelated, I think, to Paul Case's
lack of access to the material.
I consider this a great tragedy, considering the historical
circumstance that B.O.T.A. proved to be a viable organization, and
much valuable material could have been preserved.
From the point of view of the A.O., Case was a student who was
admitted to only the elementary and introductory levels of the 5-6
curriculum, and B.O.T.A. is still stuck at that same elementary level
today.
> him higly (and probably rightly) upset which resulted in him having
> the opinion that the grades beyond the 5=6 wasn't accessible by formal
> 'masonic-style' initiations.
>
> So the fact remains that the 'classical' G.D. never had any actual
> grades beyond the 5=6 (only in theory). These were later developments,
> which accounts for why there is so much diversity according these
> higher grades. You have one opinion, Crowey had his, Case yet another,
> Word has his, and Mathers.....god only knows what his real opinions
> were regarding this. The standardization only goes as far as 5=6. So,
> in my opinion this is the only grade that counts regarding 'apostlic
> succession'.
>
> I have the highest of admiration for the G.D-tradition. But at the
> same time I cannot refuse the fact that Mathers and Westcott was
> forced to use higly unorthodox methods (even for G.D. standards) to
> initiate this current. And I am glad that they did!
>
> This also shows that likewise unorthodox methods are sometimes
> necessary, even today, to keep the tradition alive and receptive for
> the guidence of the Third Order.
>
> L.V.X.
>
> Tomas Stacewicz
Dear Tomas,
I admit that your point of view has some merit. However, you
overlook the fact that all esoteric rites and cults possess a
"controlling degree," containing the actual authorities for that
rite. The "controlling degree" is not a degree of attainment, but a
degree of authorization and transmission. One does not acquire
authority within an occult egregore by "attainment", but by
"authorization". (Nevertheless, if you are that highly realized an
initiate, you could create your own egregore, but then it would be
done under your own authorities, and not the authorities of a
previous egregore. And it would be a different egregore, which you
created yourself.)
So frankly, I think you are confusing the issue of "attainment" with
the issue of "authority" over an esoteric rite. If one works within
an egregore, one might be assisted to acquire attainments, but the
egregore itself functions according to its own rules, including the
rules by which "the authorities" are transmitted.
Each egregore has its own scale of Grades, and those utilized in the
GD are not necessarily the Grades of attainment in other schools or
egregores. For example, if you get to be "an Eagle" in the Mithraic
schools, it might by analogy be similar to 7=4 in the Golden Dawn,
but in fact, it would be functioning within a completely different
egregore.
In the G.D., you acquired the "authorities" for the Rite not through
attainment, but by virtue of the rules of the transmission of the
authorities within that Rite itself. Some members of the G.D. were
chartered in as 5-6 just so that could confer First Order Grades
validly within the structure (although they were admonished to "fit
themselves to the post as rapidly as possible.")
Many members in the various Arcane Schools in the lower grades aren't
aware of this fact of "authorities" in connection with egregore, so I
hope this post will help to clear up the matter.
Today a number of GD like groups adopt the titles of 7-4, but in
fact, they have not received the lineal transmission required by the
rules of the egregore. If they can create their own egregore, then
more power to them, but it still isn't GD 7-4.
LVX,
Robert
PS Someone within the GD possessing the 7-4, as did Mathers, was at
substantial liberty to make significant alterations in the rituals
and practices worked under those authorities.
An example is this type of thing was the complete reworking of the
Rites of Memphis-Mizraim (an esoteric Masonic system encompassing
Alchemy and other hidden secrets) by Seymore, reducing it from a rite
of 95 degrees to one of 33 degrees. Seymore could change the working
of the Arcane School in this way, because he possessed the actual
authorities of the School itself. But had a member in a lower grade,
say an 18th degree, tried to do the same thing, it wouldn't have been
considered valid. Likewise, if someone who is only a 5-6 in the GD
attempts to make changes in the structure or rituals, it is not
considered to be valid, because it is not done under the authorities
of the egregore contained in the GD grade of 7-4. Incidentally,
Benjamin Cox who worked on the 7-4 ritual with Mathers incorporated
some elements of Memphis-Misraim into the GD system. However, this
could be made GD work because GD authorities were utilized.
Robert Word
the document fully outlining the Z.A.M. curriculum was not available to
Case until just before his expulsion from A.O.
To this day, B.O.T.A. works only a very small segment of the Z.A.M.
curriculum, a fact which is not unrelated, I think, to Paul Case's lack
of access to the material.
I consider this a great tragedy, considering the historical circumstance
that B.O.T.A. proved to be a viable organization, and much valuable
material could have been preserved.
From the point of view of the A.O., Case was a student who was admitted
to only the elementary and introductory levels of the 5-6 curriculum,
and B.O.T.A. is still stuck at that same elementary level today.
This was an intensely bitter experience for Case, and he grew out of it
by developing his own latent skills as a teacher, to the benefit of all
the rest of us. Case gobbled up what AO he'd been exposed to, but there
was a lot more that never got to him and which he didn't even know
about.
> him higly (and probably rightly) upset which resulted in him having
> the opinion that the grades beyond the 5=6 wasn't accessible by formal
> 'masonic-style' initiations.
>
> So the fact remains that the 'classical' G.D. never had any actual
> grades beyond the 5=6 (only in theory). These were later developments,
> which accounts for why there is so much diversity according these
> higher grades. You have one opinion, Crowey had his, Case yet another,
> Word has his, and Mathers.....god only knows what his real opinions
> were regarding this. The standardization only goes as far as 5=6. So,
> in my opinion this is the only grade that counts regarding 'apostlic
> succession'.
As you know, I differ with you here. Putting 'apostolic succession'
into the 5-6 of the GD is like putting 'apostolic succession' into the
Priests rather than Bishops. Its simply wrong.
Furthermore, there is no standardization in the 5=6. Someone with the
authorities of the 7-4 grade can alter what is in the 5=6. Mathers did
precisely this (he moved papers back and forth between subgrades).
Furthermore, both Dr. Felkin and Arthur Waite, working under the 7-4
authorities, altered what is in the 5-6. There are ritual differences
between AO and SM in the 5-6; even the secret work is different. And by
the way, BOTA is different from either GD, AO, or SM, in certain
elements of 5-6 (including the secret work). Ditto FLO. So your
argument about standardization in 5-6 just doesn't hold water, and its
also not correct GD tradition.
>
> I have the highest of admiration for the G.D-tradition. But at the
> same time I cannot refuse the fact that Mathers and Westcott was
> forced to use higly unorthodox methods (even for G.D. standards) to
> initiate this current. And I am glad that they did!
GD was anything but orthodox in Victorian england. Nevertheless, it
most definitely worked withing the traditions of the arcane orders.
Once you've been through a dozen arcane orders, then you'll grow beyond
your GD parochialism. The truth is there are other magickal orders just
as powerful as GD and more so. And the chiefs of these other lines
wouldn't appoint themselves 7-4, because that's a GD term.
Dear Tomas,
LVX,
Robert
into the GD system. However, this could be made GD work because it was
done under GD authorities. Elements of one arcane tradition can be
snipped out of one egregore and pasted into another, and this sort of
thing goes on all the time.
Kheph Ra
Robert Word <Michael-...@msn.com> wrote in article
<00002e56...@msn.com>...
>However, you
> overlook the fact that all esoteric rites and cults possess a
> "controlling degree," containing the actual authorities for that
> rite. The "controlling degree" is not a degree of attainment, but a
> degree of authorization and transmission. One does not acquire
> authority within an occult egregore by "attainment", but by
> "authorization".
The ONLY real authority in an occult context is the result of attainment.
I agree that attainment is not, by itself, sufficient where a transmitted
authority is concerned. But, without attainment ALSO, there is no authority
except on paper.
> So frankly, I think you are confusing the issue of "attainment" with
> the issue of "authority" over an esoteric rite.
There is no real authority in the absence of actual attainment.
> Likewise, if someone who is only a 5-6 in the GD
> attempts to make changes in the structure or rituals, it is not
> considered to be valid, because it is not done under the authorities
> of the egregore contained in the GD grade of 7-4.
We are in agreement that initiation ritual alterations (at least, of more
than cosmetic details) must emanate from the Authority that originated the
actual Link of the Order.
Monkeyfarmer
Why would you have need of any grade past 5=6????
the rest are simply honorary grades....nothing more nothing less
It is utterly laughable to claim intiation/advancement beyond that
grade.Can someone please explain why these Fuddy folks need to
claim such grandiose grades??
After all,what's the point of a centalized theme around Tiphareth if
you will hit Geburah in a few years(at best) and be such the Warrior
that some seem to dream themselves of being...
since 5=6 re-starts a certain process as far as grade advancement
goes,why the need to glorify oneself??!!? Doesnt Tiphareth based grade
work supposed to rid one of such high-and-mighty notions?
Evidently Not
Kheph Ra
Robert Word <WO...@TIW.COM> wrote in article <331A53...@TIW.COM>...
> As you know, I differ with you here. Putting 'apostolic succession'
> into the 5-6 of the GD is like putting 'apostolic succession' into the
> Priests rather than Bishops. Its simply wrong.
EXACTLY so. The 5=6 -- specifically, the ordained Hierophant -- is the
priest. The 7=4 is the Bishop. (There is more than an amethyst ring at
stake here!)
Actually, in Waite's order the pattern was even MORE conservative. It was
the 7=4 that was considered the full priest -- according to the 7=4
ritual.
> Furthermore, there is no standardization in the 5=6. Someone with the
> authorities of the 7-4 grade can alter what is in the 5=6. Mathers did
> precisely this (he moved papers back and forth between subgrades).
> Furthermore, both Dr. Felkin and Arthur Waite, working under the 7-4
> authorities, altered what is in the 5-6. There are ritual differences
> between AO and SM in the 5-6; even the secret work is different. And by
> the way, BOTA is different from either GD, AO, or SM, in certain
> elements of 5-6 (including the secret work). Ditto FLO. So your
> argument about standardization in 5-6 just doesn't hold water, and its
> also not correct GD tradition.
"Standardization" may have been too strong a word for the young man to use
-- but one must admit (mustn't one?) that there is a strong commonality of
the rituals, and even an identity of their formula, even when the details
have been changed. (BTW, you could as well have added "Ditto TOT" to your
list.)
Nick Farrell
In article <00002e56...@msn.com>, Robert Word <Michael-
Hart...@msn.com> writes
I can only suggest that once again we are not dealing with the *real*
Robert Word. Either that or an evil nasty person calling himself Robert
Word who claims a 7=4 in the Golden Dawn while slandering hard working
fellow masons and other occultists has been making posts under RW's
name.
I am sure that such postings must be to slur the real Robert Word's
name. I have a series of posts both made publically and privately by
someone calling himself Mr Robert Word, although someone using the same
style seems also to be using the name Sar Dragonis and there are several
others.
I suggest that until the matter is cleared up that no-one listens to
anything posted under the handle Sar Dragonis or Robert Word. It is
liable to be inconsistant slander.
--
Nick Farrell
Robert Word
> > overlook the fact that all esoteric rites and cults possess a
> > "controlling degree," containing the actual authorities for that
> > rite. The "controlling degree" is not a degree of attainment, but a
> > degree of authorization and transmission. One does not acquire
> > authority within an occult egregore by "attainment", but by
> > "authorization".
>
>
> I agree that attainment is not, by itself, sufficient where a transmitted
> authority is concerned. But, without attainment ALSO, there is no authority
> except on paper.
And I agree with you, Jim Eshelman.
>
>
> --
> 93 93/93
> JAE
>
> "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling
> exception,
> is composed of others." --John Andrew Holmes
REW
Robert Word
Pat Zalewski wrote:
>
> In article <331722...@TIW.COM>, Robert Word <WO...@TIW.COM> wrote:
> >Frater S.A. wrote:
> >>
> >
> >> certain material which was taught in the GD, but the rituals have been
> >> rewritten ...
> >
> >
> >Temple rituals.
> >
> >BOTA. Some 90 per cent of the BOTA Ritual was written by SL MacGregor
> >Mathers. Word after word, line after line, sentence after sentence, are
> >identical. BOTA got its ritual material, if not its lessons, from AO,
> >an Order from which Paul Foster Case was expelled. But upon his
> >expulsion from the Order, Case did return all materials, as required by
> >his Oath. His later ritual composition was accomplished by memory
> >alone, a remarkable feat!
> >
>
The "R" was Master Rackozi, whom Case identified with the Count of Saint
Germain. In spite of the debunking book written in the 20's which you
alluded to in a previous post, Pat, there is substantial historical
evidence of the actual existance of the "Count of Saint Germain."
Whether or not Case did or did not meet the 400 year old Count, and
obtain the much needed authorization to make use of an AO ritual,
remains a matter of historical speculation and interpretation. It is
not a matter speculation, however, that Case, in collaboration with Ann
Davies, would come to make use of an "Ouija Board" in order to obtain
additional instructions from the same Count of Saint Germain.
After her accession to the position of Prolocutor General of BOTA, Ann
Davies ceased referring to the Master as the "Count of Saint Germain,"
and thereafter referred to him publically as "Master R." or "Master
Rackozi."
Individuals such as Paul A. Clark today like to hint or claim that they
are in contact with Master R., as a cover for their lack of
authorization in the use of BOTA Rituals. For example, Jim Eshelman,
who at the time was only a 2-9 in FLO, claimed in 1988 to have received
a phone call on a private OTO line from a stranger claiming to be
"Master R." Of course, no one in FLO ever questioned the exciting news
contained within Eshelman's claim to have received a phone call from
Master R., although I think I probably would, as we only have Eshelman's
word that such a phone call ever took place.
Incidentally, further information regarding putative phone calls from
"Master R." might be posted in the future.
>I would have thought that the master would
> have supplied rituals as well. Ah! one day a kind soul will post those BOTA
> versions of the Enochian tablets and we can see how much Case did or did not
> take from the Enochian system
Case's system is a mathematical "isomorph" of the Enochian system, a
fact of which BOTA has made little magickal use of to date.
Case claimed in a letter to Dion Fortune that the Enochian system was a
perversion of the "true" system. Presumably by "true" system he was
referring to his own. Unfortunately, no historical evidence has yet
surfaced of an alternative isomorph to the Enochian system in the time
of Dee from which according to Case Dee obtained his "perverted"
version. This is true even though substantial records still exist of
the functioning of arcane orders in that era, although these records
will, I expect, remain little known to the public at large and
historians in general.
Robert Word
Monkeyfarmer wrote:
>
> Why would you have need of any grade past 5=6????
>
Dear "Monkeyfarmer":
There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your
philosophy.
LVX,
REW
Kheph Ra
Monkeyfarmer wrote in article <337cd$7392...@news.lsumc.edu>...
> Why would you have need of any grade past 5=6????
I'm sorry, but I must disagree with you on this. There certainly *are*
other ACTUAL grades beyond this. But, BY BEING BEYOND THIS, they are
certainly of a different character.
It would be a mistake to believe that there is ever an end to spiritual
growth; and there are very definite thresholds and distinctive steps beyond
that specific point marked by the 5=6 -- especially the 5=6 as understood
in the HOGD.
Admittedly, these details are much more exactingly worked out and charted
in the A.'.A.'. than they ever were in the G.D. I don't think, though, that
this changes the basic premise.
> It is utterly laughable to claim intiation/advancement beyond that
> grade.Can someone please explain why these Fuddy folks need to
> claim such grandiose grades??
Now HERE, I have to agree with you! And I think the key word is "claim."
The ego-needs to CLAIM higher levels of attainment are, themselves, quite
questionable. (Within a given organization, there may, sometimes, be
administrative necessities; and these may carry some sort of title or
office designation. But that, after all, is, well, administrative. It's
different from claiming attainment.) There ARE higher grades -- but why
would one usually have the need to go around telling people one had
attained to them?
> After all,what's the point of a centalized theme around Tiphareth if
> you will hit Geburah in a few years(at best) and be such the Warrior
> that some seem to dream themselves of being...
There is a difference between Mars below, and Mars above, Tiphereth. What
many think of as Geburah is really a falling back to the Path of Peh, I
think. This doesn't change the fact that a 6=5 Grade exists. Most people
just don't realize that the Adeptus Major is "Adept" first and foremost,
and "Major" last. Most power needs are just ego needs enflamed and
unbalanced.
I have found it most useful to regard 6=5 and 7=4 as subsets, as it were,
of 5=6. Not "subgrades" in the GD's RR et AC sense, but full grades
recognizing that their "foundation" is no longer Yesod, but Tiphereth. They
are grounding in the experiences, or attainment, which characterizes the
original adepthood. But they are also stages of aspiration to that which
lies beyond the Middle Triad.
> since 5=6 re-starts a certain process as far as grade advancement
> goes,why the need to glorify oneself??!!? Doesnt Tiphareth based grade
> work supposed to rid one of such high-and-mighty notions?
> Evidently Not
Of the ego needs, one would hope. Of the soul's necessity to continue its
eternal, silent Going, absolutely not.
Your letter does, however, implicitly address those that haven't taken the
Tiphereth stage itself very seriously; and on this point I can agree with
you quite a lot. It is certainly far more -- far FAR more -- than just a
number falling somewhere between 4 and 6.
Pat Zalewski
In article <331722...@TIW.COM>, Robert Word <WO...@TIW.COM> wrote:
>Frater S.A. wrote:
>>
>
>> Even beyond all that, BOTA is *not* a GD order. Yes, it does teach
>> certain material which was taught in the GD, but the rituals have been
>> rewritten ...
>
>
>I am in possession of the BOTA Chapter Rituals and also the original AO
>Temple rituals.
>
>Paul Foster Case extensively plagiarized the AO ritual in the 0-0 of
>BOTA. Some 90 per cent of the BOTA Ritual was written by SL MacGregor
>Mathers. Word after word, line after line, sentence after sentence, are
>identical. BOTA got its ritual material, if not its lessons, from AO,
>an Order from which Paul Foster Case was expelled. But upon his
>expulsion from the Order, Case did return all materials, as required by
>his Oath. His later ritual composition was accomplished by memory
>alone, a remarkable feat!
>
With Case's contact with Master R, I would have thought that the master would
jake stratton-kent
In article <eximerE6...@netcom.com>, Xahara
<end...@enantio.dromia.com> writes
>Robert Word wrote:
>>(Nevertheless, if you are that highly realized an initiate, you could
>>create your own egregore, but then it would be done under your own
>>authorities, and not the authorities of a previous egregore. And it
>>would be a different egregore, which you created yourself.)
>>If one works within an
>>egregore, one might be assisted to acquire attainments, but the egregore
>>itself functions according to its own rules, including the rules by
>>which "the authorities" are transmitted.
>
>your discourse in the presence and purpose of archi-form
>in an egregore is fascinating and perhaps bears elaboration
>for those who continue to read this newsgroup.
>
>What exactly does one bring to, or feed, an egregore?
>and what exactly does it do for you in return?
93. Greetings Xahara, and all posters to this thread,
I also found this egregore exposition interesting, it clarified some
things for me (some Order related stuff I'd taken for sectarianism now
appears to be part of a genuinely occult process of 'alignment') - how
about it _all_ you B.O.T.A. Course poster guys, want to develop on the
subject of eregores.
We could sure use another occult oriented thread on this spam laden
newsgroup. ;-)
93 93/93
Jake
Robert Word
> > into the 5-6 of the GD is like putting 'apostolic succession' into the
> > Priests rather than Bishops. Its simply wrong.
>
> stake here!)
Dear JAE,
We agree precisely on this point; I wanted to bring out an accurate
expression of the authentic tradition, among other things.
Now at last we can come out publically with a joint declaration of our
understanding of the structure of the authorities of the GD, in order to
clarify a point that has sometimes been misrepresented in North America
in the past.
If you could kindly transmit to me in some form documentation
substantiating your 7-4 claims about Aleister Crowley, I would be much
obliged. I will reciprocate Crowley information with more Crowley
information in kind.
>
> Actually, in Waite's order the pattern was even MORE conservative. It was
> the 7=4 that was considered the full priest -- according to the 7=4
> ritual.
>
> > Furthermore, there is no standardization in the 5=6. Someone with the
> > authorities of the 7-4 grade can alter what is in the 5=6. Mathers did
> > precisely this (he moved papers back and forth between subgrades).
> > Furthermore, both Dr. Felkin and Arthur Waite, working under the 7-4
> > authorities, altered what is in the 5-6. There are ritual differences
> > between AO and SM in the 5-6; even the secret work is different. And by
> > the way, BOTA is different from either GD, AO, or SM, in certain
> > elements of 5-6 (including the secret work). Ditto FLO. So your
> > argument about standardization in 5-6 just doesn't hold water, and its
> > also not correct GD tradition.
>
> "Standardization" may have been too strong a word for the young man to use
> -- but one must admit (mustn't one?) that there is a strong commonality of
> the rituals, and even an identity of their formula, even when the details
> have been changed. (BTW, you could as well have added "Ditto TOT" to your
> list.)
I know. Ditto TOT.
>
>
> --
> 93 93/93
> JAE
>
> "It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling
> exception,
> is composed of others." --John Andrew Holmes
LVX,
REW
Robert Word
Pat Zalewski wrote:
>
> In article <337cd$7392...@news.lsumc.edu>, Monkeyfarmer wrote:
> >Why would you have need of any grade past 5=6????
> >the rest are simply honorary grades....nothing more nothing less
> >grade.Can someone please explain why these Fuddy folks need to
> >claim such grandiose grades??
> >you will hit Geburah in a few years(at best) and be such the Warrior
> >that some seem to dream themselves of being...
> >goes,why the need to glorify oneself??!!? Doesnt Tiphareth based grade
> >work supposed to rid one of such high-and-mighty notions?
> >Evidently Not
> >
> >
> Carnegi Dickson and other former AO members who reached 7=4. Pity about some
> of the papers given out for 6-=5 and 7=4 by the AO considering they were
> honourary grades,. You got a point there. Why would they want Mathers papers
> for the higher grades. Beats me! The nerve of some people claiming to go
> beyond the 5=6 UGH! it makes my blood boil. And all that A.O. sexual teachings
> that goes with it. Fancy all that just for an honourary position. They were
> mad all right. Okay guys everyone claiming 7=4 is now demoted to 5=6.That'll
> fix them!
>
> Pat
Dear Pat,
I would still like to see proof that Aleister Crowley got his 7-4
through an A.O. lineage. Did you mean to demote Aleister Crowley to 5-6
also? Are you sure you could get away with doing something like that to
someone who MIGHT have crossed the abyss?
LVX,
REW
Robert Word
Nick Farrell wrote:
>
> In article <00002e56...@msn.com>, Robert Word <Michael-
> Hart...@msn.com> writes
> >
> >I reiterate that the statements of Nick Farrell regarding my views
> >are not accurate, and that he has knowingly made false statements
> >about me and about my views.
> >
>
>
> anything posted under the handle Sar Dragonis or Robert Word. It is
> liable to be inconsistant slander.
>
> --
> Nick Farrell
I am pleased that Nick Farrell has ceased posting the same libelous and
unproven statements against certain individuals and organizations that
he has in the past.
Nick, has your change in behavior in that particular regard resulted
from your own serious and mature reflection? If so, I approve the
change. Just don't post those false and libelous charges against those
individuals once again, or you know very well there could be quite
serious consequences for yourself.
Now I wish that you would also cease and desist from distorting my own
views in your posts? Would you kindly allow me to expound my views and
ideas myself? I reiterate that your accounts have been pure distortion,
disinformation, and misinformation.
Nick Farrell has frequently misrepresented my ideas and views on the
internet, and here, he has done so once again in this latest post.
The correct exposition of my views can only be obtained by contacting me
directly, instead of relying on the yellow press journalistic abilities
of Nick Farrell.
Anyone seriously interested in obtaining a correct exposition of my
views from me directly could also easily obtain proof of identity.
Proof of identity is something which Nick Farrell, in his zeal for
yellow press journalism and distortion, states that he could not obtain;
but in fact any seriously interested member of the public could easily
obtain proof of identity by contacting me directly.
Nick Farrell is a simple liar.
LVX,
REW
Pat Zalewski
Nick Farrell
In article <331CB3...@TIW.COM>, Robert Word <WO...@TIW.COM> writes
>Nick Farrell wrote:
>I am pleased that Nick Farrell has ceased posting the same libelous and
>unproven statements against certain individuals and organizations that
>he has in the past.
>
Hmmm this must be the false Robert Word again. A real 7=4 would not
bother with the likes of me, being far too lowly to bother with.
However the false Robert Word who has so far libelled several
individuals and prominant freemasons and the leaders of other groups
seems totally obsessed with what I have to say.
I wonder when the real Robert will step in and attempt to close down
this false Robert Word's account? Clearly if he does not soon he will
find his good name questioned.
>Nick, has your change in behavior in that particular regard resulted
>from your own serious and mature reflection?
>If so, I approve the
>change.
A blessing ! All my life I have looked for a blessing from the inner
and now obviously my action accords with the forces of nature. What a
pity it is the false Robert Word talking. The real Robert Word who hold
the grade of 7=4 would have picked up on the astral that I have a life
and don't look at alt.magick every day to make a pronouncement on
everything.
>Just don't post those false and libelous charges against those
>individuals once again, or you know very well there could be quite
>serious consequences for yourself.
LOL it is very kind of you to be concerned about my well being. However
I am still gathering more information on the false Robert Word, his good
friend Mr Zink and Mr Griffin which in time will be posted and forwarded
to the relavant authorities. Of course such information will be
presented to these people for their comment before it is published. In
fact I have just received a bundle of very interesting information from
a very senior member of the HOGDI about his chief that I am in the
process of checking.
>
>Now I wish that you would also cease and desist from distorting my own
>views in your posts?
This is a standard complaint from the false Robert Word, whose image of
truth is distorted. The real Mr Word would have a point of view and
stick to it. The false Mr Word changes his mind faster than he changes
his underpants. The posts and emails he makes have been filed and his
libels, which he later denies, have been forwarded onto those he
slanders on the same day he makes them. There is no need for
distortion, the evidence is obvious to readers of alt.magick
> Would you kindly allow me to expound my views and
>ideas myself?
>I reiterate that your accounts have been pure distortion,
>disinformation, and misinformation.
Repeating yourself does not make it truth either. The false Mr Word
will constantly repeat himself, often over several posts or threads. In
journalism we recognise this technique among those who have been caught
with their hands in the cookie jar. To lie effectively, the person
responsible loudly denies the truth countless times until they believe
it themselves. Often they will even take their allegations to press
complaints authorities or courts only to be laughed out.
>
>
>Nick Farrell has frequently misrepresented my ideas and views on the
>internet, and here, he has done so once again in this latest post.
>
See reader, here we have another example...
>The correct exposition of my views can only be obtained by contacting me
>directly, instead of relying on the yellow press journalistic abilities
>of Nick Farrell.
This is another technique, which is very popular with politicians and
those religious cults. That is instead of dealing with the issues they
choose to blame the media, or in this case the person who reported the
statements rather than accepting the truth. Such organisations and
individuals attack the media for refusing to stick to the official
public relations line. In this case the false Robert Word made
statements about Bob Gilbert taking bribes from a member of Chic
Cicero's temple to smear Bob Griffin in a recent court action. The
person using Mr Word's name expected me to quietly accept this, however
I sent a copy of his letter to Mr Gilbert, who is a friend of mine, and
posted a copy if it on the Internet. Mr Word's 'misrepresentation'
claim against me is that as it was a private letter I had no right to
a.post his slanderous letter or hand it on to the person he was
smearing.
In actual fact this is untrue I have every right to defend a friend who
is being smeared by a lesser individual, just as he has chosen to defend
his friend Robert Zink.
>
>Anyone seriously interested in obtaining a correct exposition of my
>views from me directly could also easily obtain proof of identity.
>
No, I can't believe that this is the correct Robert Word. The Robert
Word who wrote to me in a private post said that although he had the 7=4
from a man called Hyatt, he did not believe he have the spiritual
development to hold such a grade. Such modesty is in actual keeping
with a real seeker and I accept this. I cannot accept that this is the
same person who signs himself as a 7=4 and blasts another person for
claiming the same thing. This is not the action of a seeker.
>Nick Farrell is a simple liar.
As opposed to an acomplished liar such as the false Mr Word. I was not
aware that the Golden Dawn ever gave grades out in falsehood.
Obviously I have not been initiated in such a tradition, a simple liar
is below a 0=0 while the false Mr Word is claiming a 7=4.
--
Nick Farrell
Josef Jaroslaw Kalicun
In article <337cd$7392...@news.lsumc.edu>, Monkeyfarmer (Monkeyfarmer) writes:
>Why would you have need of any grade past 5=6????
>the rest are simply honorary grades....nothing more nothing less
>It is utterly laughable to claim intiation/advancement beyond that
>grade.Can someone please explain why these Fuddy folks need to
>claim such grandiose grades??
Could an explanation of this be found by reference to the Masonic
Order. The 5=6 could be paralled with the 3rd degree of the masons.
The central character of both systems deal with the initiates
confrontation with symbols of death & resurrection. The Holy Royal
Arch degree ( Tiphareth ??) completes the drama of that which was
lost by the central figure. Other higher degrees deal with other
facets of the initiates personality development. Thre is nothing
honoury about these side orders in the York Rite or the Scotish
Rite.
>After all,what's the point of a centalized theme around Tiphareth if
>you will hit Geburah in a few years(at best) and be such the Warrior
>that some seem to dream themselves of being...
Equally with reference to the masonic system, there are higher
orders or rites, some which have a templar/chivarly (Geburah???)
emphasis. Would this be seen as invalid just because the lower
degree have already disclosed their 'highest secret teachings'. I
argue not, instead these 'higher degrees' show a different slant on
the very same secrets of death and resurrection.
Since I don't posess rituals of the Soc. Ros. in Anglia (not being
a member) it's hard for me to draw any parallels with Mathers
masonic/rosicrucian thinking processes. There must be plenty of
millage in this area. If there are any Soc. Ros. members who would
like to describe how there higher degrees are viewed or worked
(without violating any pledges) it may broaden this discussion. I
recall from the text of the German Golden and Rosy Cross Order that
there were grades beyond 5=6. I guess that these were important
then, so it may still be important now.
>since 5=6 re-starts a certain process as far as grade advancement
>goes,why the need to glorify oneself??!!? Doesnt Tiphareth based grade
>work supposed to rid one of such high-and-mighty notions?
This is a very important note. I recall from a masonic ritual of
initiation '... what you are about to do now in symbol,hereafter you
will have to do in fact'. Grades no matter how grandiose are
symbolic titles which have to be carried and fully applied for them
to be true grades.
Josef
Robert Word
Roger Kessinger has published an 'expose' of Societas Rosicruciana
Rituals. Although the book he publishes does not for the most part
reflect the rituals actually worked in that Society, it may be useful to
study the symbolism of those published rituals.
The S.R.I.A. in england was founded in the 1800's by Robert Wentworth
Little, who received the Rosicrucian degrees from a previously existing
Scottish society (which was non-masonic in membership). The Scottish
society became defunct shortly after issuing Little the degrees and
charter. Robert Wentworth Little imposed the masonic requirement on
membership in his newly created english order, which he initially worked
in connection with the Red Cross of Constantine.
Arthur Edward Waite wrote about the Societas Rosicruciana in his book
"Real History of the Rosicrucians," and for the most part, his
description of the society is fully accurate as it was worked then and
now.
The english Founders of the Golden Dawn were schooled in the S.R.I.A.
(in fact, they were its Chiefs), and hence the symbolism of the G.D. is
concordant with that of the S.R.I.A. Nevertheless, in spite of the
similar grade titles and concordant symbolism, it was not considered
that S.R.I.A. grades were actually equivalent to G.D. Grades. However,
it is significant that at one time the library of the High Council of
the S.R.I.A. and the esoteric collection of the second order of the G.D.
were synonomous, and S.R.I.A. members would visit the location of the
G.D. Vault in order to access those materials! (They had their own
visiting hours, however.) That was when Wynn Westcott was Chief Adept
in Anglia.
Today the S.R.I.A. in england is numerically large, and it is not
difficult to join. Were you to join it, you would undoubtedly be
joining a society composed of people with many of the same interests as
yourself. There are Rosicrucian colleges all over England. To gain
admission, you must
a). Fulfill the masonic requirement by virtue of membership in a
recognized lodge (i.e., one which is either chartered or recognized by
the United Grand Lodge of England).
b) Profess the Christian faith.
c) Obtain the recommendation of a member of the Third Order.
Unlike the G.D., the S.R.I.A. is a fairly stable and placid society.
Nevertheless, its interests are primarily mystical rather than magical
in nature.
The high grades of S.R.I.A. (including the Third Order Grades of
Magister and Magus) are S.R.I.A. Grades, and not G.D. Grades. The
eighth degree of S.R.I.A. however recounts the legend of Christian
Rosencreutz, and in that respect, it is somewhat reminiscent of the 5-6
Grade of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn.
Nick Farrell
In article <332088...@TIW.COM>, Robert Word <WO...@TIW.COM> writes
>
>The high grades of S.R.I.A. (including the Third Order Grades of
>Magister and Magus) are S.R.I.A. Grades, and not G.D. Grades. The
>eighth degree of S.R.I.A. however recounts the legend of Christian
>Rosencreutz, and in that respect, it is somewhat reminiscent of the 5-6
>Grade of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn.
How could they be? They are a different organisation.
--
Nick Farrell
jake stratton-kent
In article <ESaq4EAK$8Iz...@edfu.demon.co.uk>, Nick Farrell
<ed...@edfu.demon.co.uk> writes
93 Nick et al.
PMFJI this very interesting discussion, but IMHO they were not so very
different in structure at least at the time of the 'Mathers' GD. They
had the same grade names (derived originally as I'm sure you know, from
the Stricte Observance), with the same personnel (Westcott for example)
occupying high grades in both organisations simultaneously. Not only
this but the elemental grades of the GD derives from similar emphasis in
the equivalent grades of SRIA; I have seen the relevant SRIA grade
certificates each in the appropriate elemental colour....
I know Orders like to distinguish their rites from those of other
systems - OTO V' / G.'.D.'. 5=6 / A&A 18' for example - but might I
suggest the regular posters to this thread discuss 'Egregores'
-dispassionately -
so more of us can appreciate these distinctions!
93 93/93
Jake Stratton-Kent
Robert Word
Nick Farrell wrote:
>
> In article <332088...@TIW.COM>, Robert Word <WO...@TIW.COM> writes
> >
> >The high grades of S.R.I.A. (including the Third Order Grades of
> >Magister and Magus) are S.R.I.A. Grades, and not G.D. Grades. The
> >eighth degree of S.R.I.A. however recounts the legend of Christian
> >Rosencreutz, and in that respect, it is somewhat reminiscent of the 5-6
> >Grade of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn.
>
> How could they be? They are a different organisation.
This is a very foolish comment for you to make, Nick Farrell. There are
a number of examples of Grades in different organizations being equated.
For example, Papus (Dr. Gerard Encausse) stated that the 18th degree of
Scottish Rite Freemasonry was equivalent to the Third Degree of the
Martinist Order. But the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry and the Martinist
Order are different organisations.
Had he wished to do so, Wynn Westcott could have set up equivalences
between the Golden Dawn Grades and the S.R.I.A. Grades. Alternatively,
had Albert Pike accepted Wynn Westcott's offer to appoint him Supreme
Chief of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn in the United States of
America, Pike could have set up equivalences between Golden Dawn Grades
and Scottish Rite degrees. And given the equivalences stated by Papus
(who became a member of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn), we would
have a resultant equivalence between Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn
Grades and Martinist Order degrees.
And of course Sister Lucea of the American S.R.I.A. is known to hold
that "the Holy Apostolic Office of Bishop is equivalent to the ninth
degree of Rosicrucianism." Ask Bob Gilbert, who got involved in the
American court trial involving S.R.I.A. at the behest of M- B- of B-,
New Jersey. (I presume a fee of some sort was collected, by Bob
Gilbert, for his services in the case.)
Incidentally, Seymore and Yarker had an equivalence between degrees of
the Rite of Memphis-Misraim, and the Ancient and Primitive Rite. The
33rd degree of one was equivalent to the 95th of the other.
So, Nick, for someone who is "not working along GD lines," your
statement betrays a remarkable ignorance of modern occultism.
REW
> --
> Nick Farrell
Nick Farrell
In article <332481...@TIW.COM>, Robert Word <WO...@TIW.COM> writes
>>
>> How could they be? They are a different organisation.
>
>This is a very foolish comment for you to make, Nick Farrell. There are
>a number of examples of Grades in different organizations being equated.
>For example, Papus (Dr. Gerard Encausse) stated that the 18th degree of
>Scottish Rite Freemasonry was equivalent to the Third Degree of the
>Martinist Order. But the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry and the Martinist
>Order are different organisations.
Oh sorry I was talking in terms of real life. The assumption that the
golden dawn had set a standard for grade accreditation and represented a
yard stick by which other organisations measured their members is just
as silly. In fact if it had not been for Israel Regardie popularising
the GD and making its rituals and grade system known to the public I
doubt that there would be so many people keen to run around claiming
they were 7=4, or 5=6.
>
>And of course Sister Lucea of the American S.R.I.A. is known to hold
>that "the Holy Apostolic Office of Bishop is equivalent to the ninth
>degree of Rosicrucianism." Ask Bob Gilbert, who got involved in the
>American court trial involving S.R.I.A. at the behest of M- B- of B-,
>New Jersey. (I presume a fee of some sort was collected, by Bob
>Gilbert, for his services in the case.)
>
Oh shit I am caught out again replying rationally to the false Robert
Word. The real Robert Word has taken oaths against defaming his fellow
masons, this false Robert Word is keen to bring up this issue again and
again to keep reminding the public (falsely) that Bob Gilbert took money
to testify in a court case against one of his friends.
However before the false Robert Word denies that he ever said this I
have faxed a copy of his statement to Bob Gilbert.
>So, Nick, for someone who is "not working along GD lines," your
>statement betrays a remarkable ignorance of modern occultism.
>
If modern occultism is knowing a lot about the masonic system, (which I
believes trades under the handle that is is very old) then I must admit
that I know nothing! It means that the people who wear dinner suits and
drink and talk business a lot at the local Masonic lodge every month
must be very high level modern magicians indeed! This could explain
why so many 'modern magicians' scramble over themselves for bits of
paper that say they are this degree or have this authorisation (which
come from the masonic system).
If this is modern occultism I am glad I am not a modern occultist...
thanks for point that out.
--
Nick Farrell
Robert Word
>
> >
> >And of course Sister Lucea of the American S.R.I.A. is known to hold
> >that "the Holy Apostolic Office of Bishop is equivalent to the ninth
> >degree of Rosicrucianism." Ask Bob Gilbert, who got involved in the
> >American court trial involving S.R.I.A. at the behest of M- B- of B-,
> >New Jersey. (I presume a fee of some sort was collected, by Bob
> >Gilbert, for his services in the case.)
> >
> Oh shit I am caught out again replying rationally to the false Robert
> Word. The real Robert Word has taken oaths against defaming his fellow
> masons, this false Robert Word is keen to bring up this issue again and
> again to keep reminding the public (falsely) that Bob Gilbert took money
> to testify in a court case against one of his friends.
> However before the false Robert Word denies that he ever said this I
> have faxed a copy of his statement to Bob Gilbert.
>
There is no impropriety in someone testifying as an "expert witness" in
a case, and collecting an appropriate fee for professional services
rendered. This statement applies to the testimony of Bob Gilbert in the
American S.R.I.A. court trial, solicited by M- B- of B- New Jersey on
behalf of the defendant in the case.
Also, I am under no oath of obligation to keep secret from anyone the
fact of Bob Gilbert's expert testimony in a case, the records of which
are in the public domain. Neither is Bob Gilbert under any obligation
to reveal to the public his precise fee structure for rendering such
expert testimony.
The statements of Nick Farrell, however, constitute Yellow Press
Journalism ad nauseum.
REW
> --
> Nick Farrell
Nick Farrell
In article <33258B...@TIW.COM>, Robert Word <WO...@TIW.COM> writes
This is a standard technique of the person who calls himself Robert
Word. In fact it shows that it cannot be the real man himself. As we
have shown already the real Robert Word is a balanced man of integrety,
who is a respected free mason and scholar who would not stoop to
attacking fellow masons, or esoteric orders.
This 'false' Robert Word is clearly very insecure in any titles that he
takes for himself and believes that repeating himself until the person
goes away somehow constitutes a victory.
The false Robert Word also believes, like many cults, that the best
form of defence against allegations he can't defend is to attack the
person who states them.
It is interesting that he places the words 'Yellow Journalism' in
capital letters as if it were a company or institution. Perhaps he feels
that such an institution is watching him, waiting to catch him out. In
which case anyone who disagrees will be a member of such an institution.
Clearly I hope that the real Robert Word moves fast to remove this
imposter quickly
--
Nick Farrell
nap...@central.co.nz
>How could they be? They are a different organisation.
>--
>Nick Farrell
Nick, Nick, Nick .... when will you ever learn.
G.W.B.
(N.Z.)--
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