Dragon Magick
Balagnarok
I am looking for information on Dragon Magick, until now i only found
one book covering that topic. (For those who are interested : "Dancing
with Dragons" by D.J. Conway, ISBN 1-56718-165-1)
I have always been a believer of dragon existence, either here (that's
what i believed in my childhood) or in the astral plane (what i
believe nowadays).
If you have any info on Dragon Magick please post it.
--------------------------
I am also searching for people who have read "The Golden Dawn", i have
read an exerpt from it and i would like to hear your opinion about it
before i buy the compleet work (it's rather expensive).
---------------------------
Only serious responds please......
Balagnarok
---==> Magick rule no. 1: Every intentional act is a magical act.
Al Billings
Balagnarok (Balag...@Mazooth.com) wrote:
: I am looking for information on Dragon Magick, until now i only found
: one book covering that topic. (For those who are interested : "Dancing
: with Dragons" by D.J. Conway, ISBN 1-56718-165-1)
:
: I have always been a believer of dragon existence, either here (that's
: what i believed in my childhood) or in the astral plane (what i
: believe nowadays).
:
: If you have any info on Dragon Magick please post it.
I wouldn't take anything that D.J. Conway wrote as worth the paper it is
printed out. She is a hack writer who cranks out low end books. Sorry but
it's true.
Charla J. Williams
Hi Al!
Al Billings (mi...@speakeasy.org) wrote:
: I wouldn't take anything that D.J. Conway wrote as worth the paper it is
: printed out. She is a hack writer who cranks out low end books. Sorry but
: it's true.
I'm surprised that Conway's article on John Dee and the apocalypse
in the current issue of Gnosis hasn't come up for discussion yet.
Regards, Charla
LordDrakon
In article <4snt2v$o...@news.xs4all.nl>, Balag...@Mazooth.com
(Balagnarok) writes:
>I am looking for information on Dragon Magick, until now i only found
>one book covering that topic. (For those who are interested : "Dancing
>with Dragons" by D.J. Conway, ISBN 1-56718-165-1)
>
>I have always been a believer of dragon existence, either here (that's
>what i believed in my childhood) or in the astral plane (what i
>believe nowadays).
>
>If you have any info on Dragon Magick please post it.
>
Unfortunately, in my experience I have found that dragons do only exist on
the astral plane (what I call the "Overworld"). As children, we see into
both the mundane and the Overworld at the same time. We lose this ability
as adults, mostly. I seek to join the two into one, but that is another
story....
I would suggest dreamwork as a viable means of acquiring dragon magick
rituals, if you are tuned unto this path. Simply hold the Intent in your
mind as you fall asleep to dream of dragon magick, and to remember the
dreams upon waking. As soon as you wake up (even if it's in the middle of
the night), write down your dreams. Review them the next day, looking for
symbolic content associated with dragons. If you get into the habit of
doing this, then you will soon develop a psychic "conduit" to the dragon
world you yearn for. The subconscious is amazingly responsive to
conscious suggestions like this.
Good luck. Until the day that dragons again darken our skies,
-Lord Drakon (LordD...@aol.com) Posted and Emailed
"By burning anything to ashes you may gain its salt. If in this
dissolution the sulphur and mercury be kept apart, and restored to its
salt, you may once more obtain that form which was destroyed by the
process of combustion." - Basilius Valentinus
Charla J. Williams
Greetings:
In article <4snt2v$o...@news.xs4all.nl> you wrote:
: I am looking for information on Dragon Magick, until now i only found
: one book covering that topic. (For those who are interested : "Dancing
: with Dragons" by D.J. Conway, ISBN 1-56718-165-1)
When I lived in Albuquerque I came across several people whose magical
system involves working with dragons. These people have roots in
the Children of the Dawn, both in Albuquerque and in Tennessee. The people
I've met who work seriously with dragons don't take them lightly.
Ian Corrigan (sp.?) has a fun little book out titled something like
the Book of the Dragon or the Grimoire of the Dragon.
I've got enough friends born in the year of the Dragon to keep an eye
out for the symbol but it's not one of my personal totems.
Regards, Charla
Al Billings
Charla J. Williams (char...@netcom.com) wrote:
: Hi Al!
Uhm. That article is by Donald Tyson (another hack), not Conway. My
magazine printed a review of his last book in our last issue. This book
makes the same argument as he does in his article (that the Enochian
system is a trick to get human's to open the gates of destruction and end
the world unwittingly). It's a croc.
Balagnarok
mi...@speakeasy.org (Al Billings) wrote:
>Balagnarok (Balag...@Mazooth.com) wrote:
>: I am looking for information on Dragon Magick, until now i only found
>: one book covering that topic. (For those who are interested : "Dancing
>: with Dragons" by D.J. Conway, ISBN 1-56718-165-1)
>:
>: I have always been a believer of dragon existence, either here (that's
>: what i believed in my childhood) or in the astral plane (what i
>: believe nowadays).
>:
>: If you have any info on Dragon Magick please post it.
> I wouldn't take anything that D.J. Conway wrote as worth the paper it is
>printed out. She is a hack writer who cranks out low end books. Sorry but
>it's true.
Well, after reading the first couple of chapters I think I have to
agree :-(
Balagnarok
Balagnarok
lordd...@aol.com (LordDrakon) wrote:
>Unfortunately, in my experience I have found that dragons do only exist on
>the astral plane (what I call the "Overworld"). As children, we see into
>both the mundane and the Overworld at the same time. We lose this ability
>as adults, mostly. I seek to join the two into one, but that is another
>story....
The astral plane is a very hard place to reach, but not impossible. I
have a friend who, by means of meditation, goes into a deep trance in
which he can see into the astral plane. Unfortunately he only sees
flashes, but he believes that with practice and a deeper trance he
might be able to see more. (Another unfortunate thing, he is not at
all interested in dragons).
>I would suggest dreamwork as a viable means of acquiring dragon magick
>rituals, if you are tuned unto this path
I will certainly try, thanks.
Balagnarok
***** Their breath is like a thousand thunderstorms *****
Charla J. Williams
: : I'm surprised that Conway's article on John Dee and the apocalypse
: : in the current issue of Gnosis hasn't come up for discussion yet.
: Uhm. That article is by Donald Tyson (another hack), not Conway.
Oops. Thanks for the correction Al.
joshua geller
In article <charlajwD...@netcom.com> char...@netcom.com (Charla
J. Williams) writes:
> Hi Al!
> Al Billings (mi...@speakeasy.org) wrote:
> : I wouldn't take anything that D.J. Conway wrote as worth the
> : paper it is printed out. She is a hack writer who cranks out low
> : end books. Sorry but it's true.
> I'm surprised that Conway's article on John Dee and the apocalypse
> in the current issue of Gnosis hasn't come up for discussion yet.
gnosis: doomed?
josh
George Leake
> : Al Billings (mi...@speakeasy.org) wrote:
> : : I wouldn't take anything that D.J. Conway wrote as worth the paper it is
> : : printed out. She is a hack writer who cranks out low end books. Sorry but
> : : it's true.
> Charla J. Williams (char...@netcom.com) wrote:
> : Hi Al!
> : I'm surprised that Conway's article on John Dee and the apocalypse
> : in the current issue of Gnosis hasn't come up for discussion yet.
mi...@speakeasy.org (Al Billings) wrote:
> Uhm. That article is by Donald Tyson (another hack), not Conway. My
> magazine printed a review of his last book in our last issue. This book
> makes the same argument as he does in his article (that the Enochian
> system is a trick to get human's to open the gates of destruction and end
> the world unwittingly). It's a croc.
*lets get into this some more. I heard an argument for Tyson's article
that actually made sense--that if all the spirits held back by the gates
are simply one's internal spirits, then Tyson's article boils down to a
warning against rash would be Enochian practioners. And I have a very good
friend in fact who's a bit loopy anyhow who got into this and REALLY
started going bananas. Specially once he thought the angels were
communicating with him.
--
George Leake 512-471-9117 tali...@mail.utexas.edu
"The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine."-George Washington
"For we are instinctively all too greedy for praise, and there is no sound or song that comes sweeter to our ears; praise, like Sirens' voices, is the kind of music that causes shipwreck to the man who does not stop his ears to its deceptive harmony."-B.Castiglione, "The Courtier"
Patrick Hines
jos...@alkahest.isas.com (joshua geller) wrote:
>In article <charlajwD...@netcom.com> char...@netcom.com (Charla
>J. Williams) writes:
>> Hi Al!
>> Al Billings (mi...@speakeasy.org) wrote:
>> : I wouldn't take anything that D.J. Conway wrote as worth the
>> : paper it is printed out. She is a hack writer who cranks out low
>> : end books. Sorry but it's true.
>> I'm surprised that Conway's article on John Dee and the apocalypse
>> in the current issue of Gnosis hasn't come up for discussion yet.
>gnosis: doomed?
>josh
yes from what I see <first the manifesto [tm] & now the enochian
apocalypse> gnosis seems doomed to lose its value as a quality zine.
too bad. I used to like it
Patrick
Josh Norton
tali...@mail.utexas.edu (George Leake) wrote:
>>[re: Tyson's Enochian Apocalypse]
>>*lets get into this some more. I heard an argument for Tyson's article
>>that actually made sense--that if all the spirits held back by the gates
>>are simply one's internal spirits, then Tyson's article boils down to a
>>warning against rash would be Enochian practioners. And I have a very good
>>friend in fact who's a bit loopy anyhow who got into this and REALLY
>>started going bananas. Specially once he thought the angels were
>>communicating with him.
[re: mental effects of Enochian]
Exposure to the energies invoked by the Calls does produce a lot of mental
and physical stress, especially in inexperienced practitioners. This tends
to exacerbate existing problems of either type, and long exposure can
create temporary problems even for basically stable people. Ceasing to
invoke for a while will usually clear up such things, and setting a slower
pace will prevent them from occurring. It is also better to avoid doing
the magick entirely during times when one's mundane affairs are in a
high-stress state.
[re: Tyson's ideas]
In the biographical blurb on his book (_Tetragrammaton_, Llewellyn Pubs.)
Tyson describes himself as a "theoretical magician". I suspect this means
that he hasn't actually used the magick he talks about. In any case, his
book qualifies him for this year's Gerald Schueler Award for sensationalist
crap disguised as authoritative pronouncements.
It's clear from Tyson's book that he is talking about something more than
internal psychological problems. What he describes is standard American
"post-mil" millenialism -- _Revelations_ taken as a factual prediction --
with additions straight out of Lovecraft via Kenneth Grant: monstrous
entities living in the "spaces between the dimensions", waiting for a
chance to invade our reality and gobble up all our delicious souls.
Not only is there no evidence for this view in Dee's records, but the
little the angels did say directly contradicts it. Interested parties can
look up the entry for February 11, 1584, where the angel Nalvage appears
for the first time, and describes the purpose of the magick he will give to
Dee and Kelly later that year.
Basically, Nalvage states what is now known as the "pre-mil" version of
millenialism: I.e., that the world must be brought to a state of
perfection, and the Kingdom of God on Earth be fully established, _before_
the Christ will return. It is only after the Christ returns that the world
will end, there being nothing left to accomplish at that point.
Nalvage says that the Calls and Tablets are a tool for bringing the world
to the state of perfection necessary for the return of the Christ. The
magick purifies what it touches so that "death may be swallowed in his own
kingdom, and the enemy of righteousness [i.e. Choronzon or Satan] find no
habitation." The intent of the work is to seal off the world from evil, not
to be a gate for its entry.
I have no opinion on the Second Coming. But I can testify to the "raising"
and "purifying" effect of the Enochian powers. Repeated exposure produces a
permanent heightening and expansion of the user's perceptions. It also
tends to bring any unresolved problems to the surface, and forces the
person to deal with them and expel them from his nature. Not a very
pleasant process, but the results are worth it.
Josh
--------
To ensure a response, please cc all replies to: br...@megalinx.net
George Leake
hi...@contnet.com (Patrick Hines) wrote:
>yes from what I see <first the manifesto [tm] & now the enochian
apocalypse> gnosis seems doomed to lose its value as a quality zine. too
bad. I used to like it
as a warning--but yeah, there are many holes in its logic. However,
several other articles there are pretty good. Though the Knights of Malta
story has some large holes. And the bit on swords/hermeticism comes across
like a red herring. According to a subscriber I know, they are asking for
money, so I guess might be going out of business.
Charla J. Williams
Patrick Hines (hi...@contnet.com) wrote:
: yes from what I see <first the manifesto [tm] & now the enochian
: apocalypse> gnosis seems doomed to lose its value as a quality zine.
: too bad. I used to like it
Having seen ads for 3 different GD organizations in the current
issue of Gnosis at a quick glance, I got a chuckle out of the disclaimer
at the bottom of one ad - 'not affiliated with any other GD'.
George Leake
mi...@speakeasy.org (Al Billings) wrote:
> 2) I'm close friends and a collegue of the fellow that wrote the
"swords/hermeticism" article and I fail to see how it comes across as a
red herring. Could you please explain?
*sure. Basically it uses some hermetic principles, notably mathematical
ones, and really is tangential to the discussion elsewhere of hermetic
transmutation and the like
His work is verifiable
*no question bout that
>and he is hard at work translating the source material he's working with
from French. If you go down to a good University library, you can probably
get them to find a copy of the french text for you on microfilm.
*as a fencer, I've looked at most of these first editions here (I work at
a major rare books library). Clearly these books are written in the
context of Fludd, et al, but it just strikes me a bit like Enochian Chess.
Al Billings
George Leake (tali...@mail.utexas.edu) wrote:
: *I do think Tyson's enochian article has a positive angle if one takes it
: as a warning--but yeah, there are many holes in its logic. However,
: several other articles there are pretty good. Though the Knights of Malta
: story has some large holes. And the bit on swords/hermeticism comes across
: like a red herring. According to a subscriber I know, they are asking for
: money, so I guess might be going out of business.
A couple of points:
1) Gnosis has ALWAYS asked for money because they've never made enough to
cover printing the journal.
2) I'm close friends and a collegue of the fellow that wrote the
"swords/hermeticism" article and I fail to see how it comes accross as a
red herring. Could you please explain? His work is verifiable and he is
Az0th
Yo Grendel!
(does anybody still call you Grendel?)
: Given that communicating with angels is one of the main points of the
: Enochian system of magic, I fail to see how that is a source of any
: problems.
People are different; some respond badly to having their entrained
sense of reality suddenly undermined by more or less tangible evidence
that things aren't as they've always assumed. How many folks would
actually run screaming for the hills if confronted by one of the
angels in which they profess to believe, particularly if said angel
was neither as 'nice' or as supportive as they'd expected? Believe
you me, seeing those ancient, luminous orbs staring back at you
_changes_ things. Some people don't handle this very well at all.
Tyson's warnings in _Tetragrammaton_ are not quite verbatim out
of Lovecraft's 'Dunwich Horror', especially where he's describing
the probable aftermath of allowing Choronzon free reign here; it
parallels HPL's description of what Yog-Sothoth and friends are
supposed to want to do here, clearing off the planet and hauling
it away back of beyond. Heh. Smells like poorly digested Grant
to me. I subscribe to Heckethorn's thesis that the 'Apocalypse'
of John is a mangled and misapplied account of a pagan initiatic
procedure, so there is still perhaps justifiable relevance to the
Enochian material, and certainly to Crowley's initiatic use of the
system of 30 Aires recorded in Liber 418, but there seems to me
no need to carry on so about Armageddon and all the rest of it.
OTOH, Tyson's 'restored' Great Table is interesting, and I think
his reordering of the tablets has some merit, though the practical
consequences of this rearrangement are probably limited, since
few Enochian magicians (that I know or know of) use the combined
Great Table in ritual workings in a way which would reflect any
dependency on this ordering. He appears to accept Schueler's 92nd
Governor; I don't know of anyone else taking Schueler's work seriously.
I can hardly wait for _Enochian Mandalas_. Oh, boy.
Tyson chiding James for innacurate tables only shows that Tyson
is unaware of the method by which they were derived. There are in
fact very few innacuracies, those of the typographical variety, in
James' pre-Recensa tables, once it is understood that they have
been recreated from Dee's name lists in SL3191, as I showed here
several years ago. Hulse did something similar, and crows loudly
about it (in _The Key of It All, Vol. II_), when he reconstructs
the tables from a different name list, that of the Governors.
It is a source of considerable amusement that both Tyson and
Schueler (in the _Workbook_) omit the Enochian versions of the
Calls. Maybe _that's_ why we're not even now overrun by demons
from the Great Abyss... };-]
93 93/93
Az0th
George Leake
mi...@speakeasy.org (Al Billings) wrote:
>What does "hermetic transmutation and the like" have to do with this?
*have you not read this issue of GNOSIS? That is the subject of it, and
most of the articles in it are on the subject. Generally speaking on
hermetic transmutation and the like.
>John Michael was pointing out that, for those interested, a system of
swordsmanship that incorporates Hermetic principles has existed and can be
studied.
*right. How does that contradict what I said?
>Do you not believe that this system had a Hermetic basis even though the
prime texts by its exponent state as much?
*what would cause you to ask such a question?
*in any case, I stand by my original position, which I suppose I should
define better. I see, despite the presence of some hermetic principles,
none involving transmutation.
>:His work is verifiable
>:*no question bout that
>Then what is the problem?
*ask yourself that.
> : >and he is hard at work translating the source material he's working with
> : from French. If you go down to a good University library, you can probably
> : get them to find a copy of the french text for you on microfilm.
> : *as a fencer, I've looked at most of these first editions here (I work at
> : a major rare books library). Clearly these books are written in the
> : context of Fludd, et al, but it just strikes me a bit like Enochian Chess.
>What is the problem with Enochian Chess?
*(LOL) There is no problem I guess with perhaps speaking to the angels
while playing chess...I can just picture asking Michael for strategic
advice. Perhaps its a bit like Enochian Watchtower Bingo. Or gematric
back-gammon. This doesn't strike you as funny? If not, then don't ask me
to explain it to you.
>What is your issue with all of this?
*I've tried to explain it already. Let me put this spin on it: I thought
this guy was going to make this analogous to Japanese warfare--the zen
aspects of it.And the aesthetics. After reading I felt left holding the
bag thinking "so what"?
>I'm a fencer as well (french school) so I fail to see the problem
>from that angle.
*neither do I (Italian school)
Al Billings
Az0th (az...@netcom.com) wrote:
: Yo Grendel!
: (does anybody still call you Grendel?)
Oh, a few people here and there. Anyone that's known me within this
context for more than three years. I don't use it as much since I'm on the
outs with chunks of the Asatru "community" and because I work
professionally on the net these days (Webmastering).
: : Given that communicating with angels is one of the main points of the
: : Enochian system of magic, I fail to see how that is a source of any
: : problems.
:
: People are different; some respond badly to having their entrained
: sense of reality suddenly undermined by more or less tangible evidence
: that things aren't as they've always assumed. How many folks would
: actually run screaming for the hills if confronted by one of the
: angels in which they profess to believe, particularly if said angel
: was neither as 'nice' or as supportive as they'd expected? Believe
: you me, seeing those ancient, luminous orbs staring back at you
: _changes_ things. Some people don't handle this very well at all.
I understand and I'm not sure if I would find the experience enjoyable
either. I just questioned the point of the original poster who seemed to
think that because his friend had thought angels had spoken to him there
was some sort of problem. Like I said, that's the point.
Wassail,
Al aka Grendel Grettisson
Al Billings
George Leake (tali...@mail.utexas.edu) wrote:
: > : Al Billings (mi...@speakeasy.org) wrote:
: > : : I wouldn't take anything that D.J. Conway wrote as worth the paper it is
: > : : printed out. She is a hack writer who cranks out low end books. Sorry but
: > : : it's true.
: > : I'm surprised that Conway's article on John Dee and the apocalypse
: > : in the current issue of Gnosis hasn't come up for discussion yet.
:
: > Uhm. That article is by Donald Tyson (another hack), not Conway. My
: > magazine printed a review of his last book in our last issue. This book
: > makes the same argument as he does in his article (that the Enochian
: > system is a trick to get human's to open the gates of destruction and end
: > the world unwittingly). It's a croc.
: *lets get into this some more. I heard an argument for Tyson's article
: that actually made sense--that if all the spirits held back by the gates
: are simply one's internal spirits, then Tyson's article boils down to a
: warning against rash would be Enochian practioners. And I have a very good
: friend in fact who's a bit loopy anyhow who got into this and REALLY
: started going bananas. Specially once he thought the angels were
: communicating with him.
Given that communicating with angels is one of the main points of the
Scott M. Stenwick
az...@netcom.com (Az0th) wrote:
>OTOH, Tyson's 'restored' Great Table is interesting, and I think
>his reordering of the tablets has some merit, though the practical
>consequences of this rearrangement are probably limited, since
>few Enochian magicians (that I know or know of) use the combined
>Great Table in ritual workings in a way which would reflect any
>dependency on this ordering. He appears to accept Schueler's 92nd
>Governor; I don't know of anyone else taking Schueler's work seriously.
>I can hardly wait for _Enochian Mandalas_. Oh, boy.
I use the combined Great Table in workings in an arrangement derived
from several somewhat contadictory diagrams and table in James'
Enochian Evocation. I spent quite a bit of time referencing and
cross-checking it, and am conviced that it is correct. Imagine my
surprise when Tyson published the exact same thing.
The one thing Tyson does which I do not do is re-assign the elemental
attributions of three out of the four tablets. Enochian as originally
conceived just does not use the "winds" model of elemental directions
used by the Golden Dawn and other groups (Air -- East, Fire -- South,
Water -- West, and Earth -- North). It uses a zodiac arrangement
based on the cardinal signs with Libra in the East -- thus Air -- East
(Libra), Earth -- South (Capricorn), Fire -- West (Aries), and Water
-- North (Cancer). You can derive this from the Tyson arrangement
using Golden Dawn elements for each tablet. Also, if you look at one
of the only Enochian talismans we have, a golden disk that is
obviously a lamen showing how the Watchtowers are laid out (James,
page preceding preface, with account of the vision from whence it came
on pages 187-188), we see the following color attributions notated:
East -- Green, South -- Black, West -- Red, and North -- White. Black
is the standard color for Earth and red is the standard color for
Fire. The others can be found by referencing Agrippa's
_Three_Books_of_Occult_Philosophy_ (edited by Tyson, no less), with
which Dee was almost certainly familiar. Agrippa attributes white to
Water because he sees it as a lunar color, the color of moonlight, and
the moon is the primary watery planet. He attributes green to Air
because he associates Air with plants and vegetation.
If you look at the sigils rather than the wording, it is clear that
the sigil listed for "PARAOAN" in the list of Governors does not match
the name. Replacing PARAOAN with the letters appropriate to the sigil
and referring to PARAOAN as the "92nd Governor" is something I
actually first saw in Hulce's _The_Key_Of_It_All_, part II. However,
given some of the Angels' comments about PARAOAN, it is clear that (1)
PARAOAN is a Governor, and (2) that this Angel is somehow different
from the others. Hulce says he thinks that PARAOAN is the Governor
that rules over all the others, and while I first thought this was
nonsense it becomes more plausible the more I study the original
material.
>Tyson chiding James for innacurate tables only shows that Tyson
>is unaware of the method by which they were derived. There are in
>fact very few innacuracies, those of the typographical variety, in
>James' pre-Recensa tables, once it is understood that they have
>been recreated from Dee's name lists in SL3191, as I showed here
>several years ago. Hulse did something similar, and crows loudly
>about it (in _The Key of It All, Vol. II_), when he reconstructs
>the tables from a different name list, that of the Governors.
James' presentation of the Reformed Great Tablet is accurate to
_True_and_Faithful_Relation_ and to Sloane 3191 -- the version in
Dee's own handwriting.
>It is a source of considerable amusement that both Tyson and
>Schueler (in the _Workbook_) omit the Enochian versions of the
>Calls. Maybe _that's_ why we're not even now overrun by demons
>from the Great Abyss... };-]
The Schuelers included the Enochian versions in
_Enochian_Magick:_A_Practical_Manual_. They do not include them in
_The_Enochian_Workbook_, however.
>93 93/93
>Az0th
--SMS--
George Leake
mi...@speakeasy.org (Al Billings) wrote:
>Given that communicating with angels is one of the main points of the
Enochian system of magic, I fail to see how that is a source of any
problems.
messing with something like that
Al Billings
George Leake (tali...@mail.utexas.edu) wrote:
: mi...@speakeasy.org (Al Billings) wrote:
: >What does "hermetic transmutation and the like" have to do with this?
: *have you not read this issue of GNOSIS? That is the subject of it, and
: most of the articles in it are on the subject. Generally speaking on
: hermetic transmutation and the like.
I've read the issue (I have a magazine exchange with them). I fail to see
what the contents of the other articles have to do with John Michael's
article. Your expectations don't have much bearing on the article's actual
contents.
: >John Michael was pointing out that, for those interested, a system of
: swordsmanship that incorporates Hermetic principles has existed and can be
: studied.
: *right. How does that contradict what I said?
In a thread complaining about the contents of the issue, you called his
article a "red herring." That would normally be considered derogatory. I
have been trying to find out what it was about his article that was a "red
herring."
: >Do you not believe that this system had a Hermetic basis even though the
: prime texts by its exponent state as much?
: *what would cause you to ask such a question?
See above. I'm trying to figure out what your problem with the article
is.
: *in any case, I stand by my original position, which I suppose I should
: define better. I see, despite the presence of some hermetic principles,
: none involving transmutation.
So? His article isn't about transmutation, regardless of what you might
desire or expect. His article is about, as I said, a system of
swordsmanship with a basis in Hermeticism. Do you understand this?
:
: >:His work is verifiable
: >:*no question bout that
: >Then what is the problem?
: *ask yourself that.
I am asking myself that. The only thing I can figure out is that your
expectations for the article didn't match the article's content or
purpose. I'm not sure where you received your awkward expectations.
:
: > : >and he is hard at work translating the source material he's working with
: > : from French. If you go down to a good University library, you can probably
: > : get them to find a copy of the french text for you on microfilm.
: > : *as a fencer, I've looked at most of these first editions here (I work at
: > : a major rare books library). Clearly these books are written in the
: > : context of Fludd, et al, but it just strikes me a bit like Enochian Chess.
: >What is the problem with Enochian Chess?
: *(LOL) There is no problem I guess with perhaps speaking to the angels
: while playing chess...I can just picture asking Michael for strategic
: advice. Perhaps its a bit like Enochian Watchtower Bingo. Or gematric
: back-gammon. This doesn't strike you as funny? If not, then don't ask me
: to explain it to you.
If this is all you think Enochian Chess is good for then you really are
working in the dark. I wouldn't say it is the greatest achievement of the
Golden Dawn but it has uses. If you don't understand this, then don't ask
me to explain it to you.
: >What is your issue with all of this?
: *I've tried to explain it already. Let me put this spin on it: I thought
: this guy was going to make this analogous to Japanese warfare--the zen
: aspects of it.And the aesthetics. After reading I felt left holding the
: bag thinking "so what"?
I'm sorry that you didn't like the article and that your personal
expectation (derived from somewhere) were not fulfilled but that wasn't
what the article was about and I don't think it is a legitimate reason to
label it a "red herring."
Wassail,
Al Billings
http://www.memoria.com
George Leake
mi...@speakeasy.org (Al Billings) wrote:
>I've read the issue (I have a magazine exchange with them). I fail to see
what the contents of the other articles have to do with John Michael's
article. Your expectations don't have much bearing on the article's actual
contents.
see what the article has to do with the theme of the issue, and as others
suggest, perhaps Tyson's article would have been better in the Cosmic Joke
ish
>In a thread complaining about the contents of the issue, you called his
article a "red herring." That would normally be considered derogatory. I
have been trying to find out what it was about his article that was a "red
herring."
*its inclusion was a red herring. Along with the Tyson article.
>See above. I'm trying to figure out what your problem with the article is.
*I think my point is clear
>So? His article isn't about transmutation, regardless of what you might
desire or expect. His article is about, as I said, a system of
swordsmanship with a basis in Hermeticism. Do you understand this?
*yeah. Plain from my first posting. In other words, we agree. You just
somehow think my characterizing it as out of place is somehow
"derogatory". Interesting if a bit of a letdown, which is clearly not his
fault.
>If this is all you think Enochian Chess is good for then you really are
working in the dark.
*no--I just think there's a silly aspect to it, that's all
>I'm sorry that you didn't like the article
*no--I liked it.
>and that your personal expectation (derived from somewhere) were not
fulfilled but that wasn't what the article was about and I don't think it
is a legitimate reason to label it a "red herring."
*believe it or not, there is a method to my madness--perhaps there are
works he didn't mention which actually talk about transmutation--or as he
suggests early on, perhaps thats the sword we need to take up now?
George Leake
mi...@speakeasy.org (Al Billings) wrote:
>What does "hermetic transmutation and the like" have to do with this?
*it has to do with that issue of GNOSIS and the fact that most of the
articles in it (it was the Hermetic issue, after all) spoke about the
process of transformation. However--that's probably not the author's fault
if Western swordplay did not develop into a full hermetic art as swordplay
in the far east did turn into a zen meditation, at least in the long run.
Perhaps, at someone else's suggestion, the efforts of the church and
scientific orthodoxy to discredit hermeticism in general
>John Michael was pointing out that, for those interested, a system of
swordsmanship that incorporates Hermetic principles has existed and can be
studied.
*I don't see how what I said contradicts this. In fact I said something
just like that. This is plain. We have no dispute. Its just that the
"hermetic" principles involved were not the ones generally talked about in
the rest of the magazine. Perhaps because rapier fighting never fully
developed into a hermetic discipline.
>Do you not believe that this system had a Hermetic basis even though the
prime texts by its exponent state as much?
*I've already covered this.
>:His work is verifiable
>:*no question bout that
>Then what is the problem?
*go ask yourself--you're the one bringing this up
>What is the problem with Enochian Chess?
*I suppose you can ask the Archangel Michael for hints in a game of
chess...for that matter, how bout sex magick twister, qabbalistic tiddly
winks or gematric back-gammon?
What is your issue with all of this?
*you sound like somebody who asked me once "what my agenda was".
I'm a fencer as well (french school) so I fail to see the problem from
that angle.
*I've seen 16th century fencing manuals too, and a few of these works (oh
and I'm of the Italian school; though I should admit a bit of
Hungarian)--that of course is the strong angle of the article. You tell me
how this addresses transmutation as spoken about in the other articles.
Az0th
Hi Scott,
: I use the combined Great Table in workings in an arrangement derived
If you'd care to share it, I'd be very interested in hearing more of
this type of working. Most folks I know dispose the individual tablets
around the circle/temple/altar as appropriate to their needs, and
rarely if ever use the Great Table itself.
: from several somewhat contadictory diagrams and table in James'
: Enochian Evocation. I spent quite a bit of time referencing and
: cross-checking it, and am conviced that it is correct. Imagine my
: surprise when Tyson published the exact same thing.
So, if I understand you correctly, your working table is the Recensa
lettering with the ordering of the diagram of banners on p. 119 of
James (which I believe is from SL3191)?
If you do much reconstructive/comparative work with the tables, I
expect you'd appreciate some software I wrote several years back
to facilitate this very thing. You can find it on:
http://www.magitech.com/pub/occult/Enochian/Enochian_Programs/
-and-
ftp://ftp.lysator.liu.se/pub/magick/Enochian/Enochian_pgm/
: The one thing Tyson does which I do not do is re-assign the elemental
: attributions of three out of the four tablets. Enochian as originally
: conceived just does not use the "winds" model of elemental directions
Conceived? So you are convinced, as Hulse is, that the Enochian calls
and tablets and all is a contrived, rather than an inspired, system?
Purely from a pragmatic magical perspective, I have to disagree with
Bro. Hulse on this and other points. For example, it is not at all
clear to me that reconstructing the tables from the governors names
is intrinsically superior to reconstructing the tables from the other
angelic names. As well, the upper/lower case distinctions and indeed
some of the character distinctions disappear if the tables are lettered
in Enochian script, which practically is nearly always the case. The
angels are, as many have found, remarkably forgiving of error. };-]
: used by the Golden Dawn and other groups (Air -- East, Fire -- South,
: Water -- West, and Earth -- North). It uses a zodiac arrangement
: based on the cardinal signs with Libra in the East -- thus Air -- East
: (Libra), Earth -- South (Capricorn), Fire -- West (Aries), and Water
: -- North (Cancer). You can derive this from the Tyson arrangement
: using Golden Dawn elements for each tablet. Also, if you look at one
This was a popular topic several years back on the BeastNet Enochian echo,
and as I recall the best that any of us could figure was that, depending
on the nature of the ritual, a number of different orientations were not
only possible but workable. Duquette suggests the microcosmic (winds)
orientation for invocation/evocation, and the macrocosmic (zodiacal)
orientation for 'traveling in the spirit vision'. I have no strong opinions
one way or the other, as my own practice has become highly untraditional,
and has no 'elemental' basis at all.
BTW, if you haven't already found it, there are some interesting ideas
regarding elemental orderings on John Opsopaus' Pythagorean Tarot page:
http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/OM/BA/PT/BA/PT/PT.html
(There are some other good things on the Biblioteca Arcana pages as well...)
: If you look at the sigils rather than the wording, it is clear that
: the sigil listed for "PARAOAN" in the list of Governors does not match
: the name. Replacing PARAOAN with the letters appropriate to the sigil
: and referring to PARAOAN as the "92nd Governor" is something I
: actually first saw in Hulce's _The_Key_Of_It_All_, part II. However,
Schueler's red book appeared about 9 years earlier, but I'm sure it
wasn't the first time that someone noticed the discrepancy and tried
to account for it.
: given some of the Angels' comments about PARAOAN, it is clear that (1)
: PARAOAN is a Governor, and (2) that this Angel is somehow different
: from the others. Hulce says he thinks that PARAOAN is the Governor
: that rules over all the others, and while I first thought this was
: nonsense it becomes more plausible the more I study the original
: material.
Depending which version of the tables you use to generate the names,
you can end up with two 'governors' whose names are almost the same,
such as lazdixi and laxdixi. I'm unconvinced that the adoption of
Paraoan is more than a solution to this unfortunate name collision,
but it is one imposed by the angels, and not Dee or Kelly, and I'm
not very inclined to quibble with them about this.
: James' presentation of the Reformed Great Tablet is accurate to
: _True_and_Faithful_Relation_ and to Sloane 3191 -- the version in
: Dee's own handwriting.
Yes. I was referring to his other Great Table, which is intended to
match the angels' names. I found few discrepancies, such as his
listing of Alndvod for Alndood, which conflicts with his table,
and his use of 'z' for 'x' in soaixnt/soaiznt and 'q' for 'p' in
arinnap/arrinaq. Possibly his personal inspection of SL3191 allowed
him to make these judgements more accurately than photocopies and
transcriptions allow. His Recensa does differ, very slightly, from
that used by the Aurum Solis.
: The Schuelers included the Enochian versions in
: _Enochian_Magick:_A_Practical_Manual_. They do not include them in
Yes, but only the oddly phonetic G.'.D.'. version from Chanokh. This
also was a favorite topic on the old Beastnet. Are you familiar with
the reconstruction of Dee's own Elizabethan English pronunciation of
Enochian by Christeos Pir? I've always wondered at the wisdom of
pronouncing Enochian with a Hebrew accent...
Yrs, by the Sign,
Az0th
--
We attained to be starry grains of gold dust in the sands of
a slow river. --- LIBER LIBERI VEL LAPIDIS LAZULI - V:17.
Nick Farrell
In article <4tb6f6$n...@jobe.shell.portal.com>, nagasiva
<ty...@houseofkaos.abyss.com> writes
>
>In the biographical blurb on his book (_Tetragrammaton_, Llewellyn Pubs.)
>Tyson describes himself as a "theoretical magician". I suspect this means
>that he hasn't actually used the magick he talks about. In any case, his
>book qualifies him for this year's Gerald Schueler Award for sensationalist
>crap disguised as authoritative pronouncements.
occultist but he does not want anyone to know. Agripa was another one
who said the same thing. I agree with you about Schueler tho'
Nick
Al Billings
: Enochian system of magic, I fail to see how that is a source of any
: problems.
: *the point is if you're unstable already, then you have no business
: messing with something like that
No, the point is that if you're unstable already, you have no business
messing with magic AT ALL, enochian or otherwise.
Al Billings
: what the contents of the other articles have to do with John Michael's
: article. Your expectations don't have much bearing on the article's actual
: contents.
: *here's where that thread went. That's exactly what I'm saying--I don't
: see what the article has to do with the theme of the issue, and as others
: suggest, perhaps Tyson's article would have been better in the Cosmic Joke
: ish
Perhaps you haven't been reading Gnosis for very long. In any theme
issue, there will be several articles not directly related to the theme.
This can be safely said without going through any BS to debate whether
John Michael's article was on the theme or not.
Again, you expectations are not based in reality.
: *believe it or not, there is a method to my madness--perhaps there are
: works he didn't mention which actually talk about transmutation--or as he
: suggests early on, perhaps thats the sword we need to take up now?
Perhaps you just don't get it. Transmutation was not in any way, shape,
or form, a main theme of the article. It was purely written to give people
details concerning some aspects of Hermeticism that they may not have ever
heard of.
Clay Holden
In article <4t9fi9$l...@blackice.winternet.com>, sc...@solutions.solon.com
(Scott M. Stenwick) wrote:
>...Also, if you look at one
>of the only Enochian talismans we have, a golden disk that is
>obviously a lamen showing how the Watchtowers are laid out (James,
>page preceding preface, with account of the vision from whence it came
>on pages 187-188), we see the following color attributions notated:
>East -- Green, South -- Black, West -- Red, and North -- White. Black
>is the standard color for Earth and red is the standard color for
>Fire. The others can be found by referencing Agrippa's
>_Three_Books_of_Occult_Philosophy_ (edited by Tyson, no less), with
>which Dee was almost certainly familiar. Agrippa attributes white to
>Water because he sees it as a lunar color, the color of moonlight, and
>the moon is the primary watery planet. He attributes green to Air
>because he associates Air with plants and vegetation.
Apart from considerations of which element ought to be attributed to which
quarter (which Dee does not address - the whole thing is referred to as
the "Great Tablet of the Earth"), the four directions which appear on the
golden disk are exactly backwards from Dee's original illustration as it
appears in the Cotton Appendix manuscript. This is because the
illustration published in "A True and Faithful Relation..." is also
exactly backwards. Reading the vision which Kelly is sent by Ave
(essentially the same vision is repeated on pages 168 & 171 in the "True
and Faithul Relation"), the directions are clearly East=Red, South=White,
West=Green and North=Black.
Either the gold medallion is a forgery produced after the publication of
the book (my suspicion), or else Dee was paying very poor attention to his
order when he contracted the work. Also note that there are 25, not 24
"seniors" in the center on the medallion (drawn correctly on the
original), another error, and further suggestion of forgery.
In the original manuscript, the final version reads as follows:
[Wednesday, June 20, 1584]
---------------------------
Ave -- A Vision
---------
The signe of the Love of God toward his faithfull
-------------------------------------------------
[pointing Fowre sumptuous and belligerant Castells, out of the which
finger] sownded Trumpets thrise
The signe of Maiestie, the Cloth of passage, was cast furth
Red In the east, the cloth red; after the new smitten blud.
White In the sowth, the cloth white, lilly cullor.
Grene In the west a cloth; the skynns of many dragons, greene
Black In the North, the closh Heare |garlik bladed,
cullored, Byllbery Juyce. ---------------
The Trumpets sownd once
The gates open.
The 4 Castells are moved.
There yssueth 4 Trumpetters : whose Trumpets ate
a pyramis, six cones, wreathed
There followeth out of every Castell, 3, holding up the
banners displayed, with enseigne, the names of God
There follow Seniors six, alike from the 4 gates.
After them commeth from every part, a king : whose princes
are five, gardant, and holding up his trayne.
Next yssueth the Cross of 4 Angles, of the Maiestie of Creation
in god. attended uppon, every one, with 4: a
White Clowde, 4 Crosses, bearing the wittnesses
of the covenant of god, with the King gon oute
40 Angels, on the | before: which were confirmed, every one, with ten
4 crosses, atten= | angels, visible in cowntenaynce
ding on the Principal +|
16 Angels After every cross attendeth 16 Angels, dispositors of the
will of thow, that govern the Castells.
They procede:
And, in, and abowt the middle of the cowrt, the Ensignes
kepe theyr standings, opposite to the middle of the gate.
The rest pause.
The 24 senators [sic] mete.
They seme to consult.
I, AVE, STODE BY THE SEER:
yt vanisheth.
So I leave you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This, combined with the drawing, gives in very compressed form the entire
operation of the so-called Elemental Tablets.
To correct the illustration as it appears in James/Casaubon/Laycock to its
correct directions, simply rotate the directions above the four Castles
180 degrees, and it is virtually identical to Dee's original. (I have
scanned in the original from microfilm printout, and have it saved in GIF
format, if anyone requires proof, but would prefer to give it to one
person to put on a website.)
>If you look at the sigils rather than the wording, it is clear that
>the sigil listed for "PARAOAN" in the list of Governors does not match
>the name. Replacing PARAOAN with the letters appropriate to the sigil
>and referring to PARAOAN as the "92nd Governor" is something I
>actually first saw in Hulce's _The_Key_Of_It_All_, part II. However,
>given some of the Angels' comments about PARAOAN, it is clear that (1)
>PARAOAN is a Governor, and (2) that this Angel is somehow different
>from the others. Hulce says he thinks that PARAOAN is the Governor
>that rules over all the others, and while I first thought this was
>nonsense it becomes more plausible the more I study the original
>material.
Dee does not give a sigil for PARAOAN in Sloane 3191 or elsewhere. The
cell where the sigil should go is left blank in the manuscript. James and
Turner each give a different sigil (in "Enochian Evocation" and
"Elizabethan Magic".
Dee does place him squarely in the middle of LIN, the 22nd Aethyr. By what
rationale would you remove him from there?
If one understands there to be 92 rather than 91, I thought this was
"Laxdizi" (not to be confused with "Lazdixi"). Any opinion on where he
should go?
>James' presentation of the Reformed Great Tablet is accurate to
>_True_and_Faithful_Relation_ and to Sloane 3191 -- the version in
>Dee's own handwriting.
Sadly, this is also incorrect. On the horizontal line of the Black Cross,
James gives us "mobit aTnan nantTa bitom" rather than "motib aTnan nanTa
bitom".
***** *****
James has not corrected this even after twelve years.
Incidentally, Dee *does* connect the sigils for "Air" and "Earth" Tablets
with the Sigillum DEI Aemeth (the first square of the outer ring and the
last square of the sevenfold archangelic table respectively), and the one
for the "Water Tablet" with the first of the "Seven Ensigns of Creation"
(Sloane Ms. 3188, "Mysteriorum liber Tertius").
Best wishes,
Clay
George Leake
> George Leake (tali...@mail.utexas.edu) wrote:
> : *the point is if you're unstable already, then you have no business
> : messing with something like that
> No, the point is that if you're unstable already, you have no business
> messing with magic AT ALL, enochian or otherwise.
Clay Holden
In article <cholden-2907...@10.0.2.15>, cho...@netcom.com (Clay
Holden) wrote:
Oops, a couple of typos here, may as well pounce 'em myself:
> [snip]
>Black In the North, the closh Heare |garlik bladed,
*****
should read: In the North, the cloth Heare
cullored, Byllbery Juyce. ---------------
and:
> There yssueth 4 Trumpetters : whose Trumpets ate
***
should read: There yssueth 4 Trumpetters : whose Trumpets are
a pyramis, six cones, wreathed
Apologies for any confusion these errors may have caused.
Best,
Clay
Clay Holden
<cho...@netcom.com> ( - )
( + )
"Super caelestes roretis aquae: __:__
Et terra fructum dabit suum." |
-John Dee /^|^\
George Leake
mi...@speakeasy.org (Al Billings) wrote:
>Perhaps you haven't been reading Gnosis for very long. In any theme
issue, there will be several articles not directly related to the theme.
full run who I've house-sat for, and have noticed that. Didn't think it
was that big a deal. Having read the entire issue a week ago, and after a
weekend of studying the Cambridge Ed. of the Corpus Hermeticum, I'm still
puzzled about how the connection was made in the first place...
>Again, you expectations are not based in reality.
*yeah, you know, I should stop all this silly study of people like
Marsilio Ficino, Giordano Bruno and Pico della Mirandola--not to mention
the CH, the Emerald Tablet and Iamblichus--it really gives one a false
sense altogether about Hermeticism.
>Perhaps you just don't get it. Transmutation was not in any way, shape or
form, a main theme of the article.
*Perhaps I just don't get it.
*Makes one wonder whether anything written about Hermeticism was in any
way, shape or form, a main theme of the article.
>It was purely written to give people details concerning some aspects of
Hermeticism that they may not have ever heard of.
*got any new information? I'm still no more convinced, nor have you argued
really anything not in my original posting. Better yet, let's actually
talk about hermeticism.
Scott M. Stenwick
az...@netcom.com (Az0th) wrote:
>Hi Scott,
>: I use the combined Great Table in workings in an arrangement derived
>If you'd care to share it, I'd be very interested in hearing more of
>this type of working. Most folks I know dispose the individual tablets
>around the circle/temple/altar as appropriate to their needs, and
>rarely if ever use the Great Table itself.
I'm going to be putting the results of my own research out on the Web
one of these days. I'll post the URL when it is available.
>: from several somewhat contadictory diagrams and table in James'
>: Enochian Evocation. I spent quite a bit of time referencing and
>: cross-checking it, and am conviced that it is correct. Imagine my
>: surprise when Tyson published the exact same thing.
>So, if I understand you correctly, your working table is the Recensa
>lettering with the ordering of the diagram of banners on p. 119 of
>James (which I believe is from SL3191)?
Exactly.
>If you do much reconstructive/comparative work with the tables, I
>expect you'd appreciate some software I wrote several years back
>to facilitate this very thing. You can find it on:
> http://www.magitech.com/pub/occult/Enochian/Enochian_Programs/
>-and-
> ftp://ftp.lysator.liu.se/pub/magick/Enochian/Enochian_pgm/
I'll check it out. Thanks.
>: The one thing Tyson does which I do not do is re-assign the elemental
>: attributions of three out of the four tablets. Enochian as originally
>: conceived just does not use the "winds" model of elemental directions
>Conceived? So you are convinced, as Hulse is, that the Enochian calls
>and tablets and all is a contrived, rather than an inspired, system?
Absolutely not. I mean conceived as in originated rather than
contrived or constructed. All the Enochian Calls have the standard
hallmarks of "spirit communication" - type or "channelled" material.
In addition, for Kelly to be able to remember the Enochian and the
English and read them back at different times would have been nearly
impossible with the level of accuracy exhibited in
_True_and_Faithful_Relation_. I have heard suggestions that Kelly was
perhaps quoting from some other grimoire he had memorized at some
point, but there is no evidence for anything of the sort. Dee was
obviously somewhat paranoid about this -- he accused Kelly of reciting
Agrippa when he realized that many of the place names given for the
Governors (about 60 of them, actually) were found in
_Three_Books_of_Occult_Philosophy_.
>Purely from a pragmatic magical perspective, I have to disagree with
>Bro. Hulse on this and other points. For example, it is not at all
>clear to me that reconstructing the tables from the governors names
>is intrinsically superior to reconstructing the tables from the other
>angelic names. As well, the upper/lower case distinctions and indeed
>some of the character distinctions disappear if the tables are lettered
>in Enochian script, which practically is nearly always the case. The
>angels are, as many have found, remarkably forgiving of error. };-]
I agree completely with this. There are copying errors throughout the
material we have, so assuming that the Governor names, as given, are
flawlessly accurate without subjecting them to any sort of
cross-checking is as silly as assuming the Table is perfect and
working from there.
The upper and lower case letters are, in my opinion, simply for
convenient reference. It makes it easy to tell where the sigils
begin. My own tablet is done in completely Enochian script and does
not have those distictions, or for that matter reversed letters, which
notate the letters that for PARAOAN (or "PAOAOAN" in the corrected
Table).
>: used by the Golden Dawn and other groups (Air -- East, Fire -- South,
>: Water -- West, and Earth -- North). It uses a zodiac arrangement
>: based on the cardinal signs with Libra in the East -- thus Air -- East
>: (Libra), Earth -- South (Capricorn), Fire -- West (Aries), and Water
>: -- North (Cancer). You can derive this from the Tyson arrangement
>: using Golden Dawn elements for each tablet. Also, if you look at one
>This was a popular topic several years back on the BeastNet Enochian echo,
>and as I recall the best that any of us could figure was that, depending
>on the nature of the ritual, a number of different orientations were not
>only possible but workable. Duquette suggests the microcosmic (winds)
>orientation for invocation/evocation, and the macrocosmic (zodiacal)
>orientation for 'traveling in the spirit vision'. I have no strong opinions
>one way or the other, as my own practice has become highly untraditional,
>and has no 'elemental' basis at all.
This is taken directly from the Golden Dawn materials. It is
important to note that the "zodiac" directions in Enochian are
different than the arrangement normally used. Air starts out in the
east on the tablets, meaning Libra is, in effect, "rising."
>Depending which version of the tables you use to generate the names,
>you can end up with two 'governors' whose names are almost the same,
>such as lazdixi and laxdixi. I'm unconvinced that the adoption of
>Paraoan is more than a solution to this unfortunate name collision,
>but it is one imposed by the angels, and not Dee or Kelly, and I'm
>not very inclined to quibble with them about this.
I'm not really sure myself. I really should do some workings with
PARAOAN and see how those go.
>: James' presentation of the Reformed Great Tablet is accurate to
>: _True_and_Faithful_Relation_ and to Sloane 3191 -- the version in
>: Dee's own handwriting.
>Yes. I was referring to his other Great Table, which is intended to
>match the angels' names. I found few discrepancies, such as his
>listing of Alndvod for Alndood, which conflicts with his table,
>and his use of 'z' for 'x' in soaixnt/soaiznt and 'q' for 'p' in
>arinnap/arrinaq. Possibly his personal inspection of SL3191 allowed
>him to make these judgements more accurately than photocopies and
>transcriptions allow. His Recensa does differ, very slightly, from
>that used by the Aurum Solis.
Some of the letters in the handwritten version are difficult to
decipher. According to James, he cross-checked it with the actual
Sloane 3191 material. His other Great Table is the older version
which was acknowledged by the Angels themselves to require correction.
>: The Schuelers included the Enochian versions in
>: _Enochian_Magick:_A_Practical_Manual_. They do not include them in
>Yes, but only the oddly phonetic G.'.D.'. version from Chanokh. This
>also was a favorite topic on the old Beastnet. Are you familiar with
>the reconstruction of Dee's own Elizabethan English pronunciation of
>Enochian by Christeos Pir? I've always wondered at the wisdom of
>pronouncing Enochian with a Hebrew accent...
I have not seen this version of it. The phonetic system I use is
something of a hybrid. I normally pronounce things pretty much as
written based on Dee's original notes as shown in James, inserting a
Golden Dawn vowel only when the pronunciation is really tortured and
the word really cannot be pronounced without inserting something, even
if it is only a schwah. I prefer to insert vowel sounds rather than
shwahs -- it makes the language flow better and sound more melodic. I
do not insert anywhere near as many vowel sounds as most Golden Dawn
trained magicians, however.
>Yrs, by the Sign,
>Az0th
>--
> We attained to be starry grains of gold dust in the sands of
> a slow river. --- LIBER LIBERI VEL LAPIDIS LAZULI - V:17.
--SMS--
Scott M. Stenwick
cho...@netcom.com (Clay Holden) wrote:
>Apart from considerations of which element ought to be attributed to which
>quarter (which Dee does not address - the whole thing is referred to as
>the "Great Tablet of the Earth"), the four directions which appear on the
>golden disk are exactly backwards from Dee's original illustration as it
>appears in the Cotton Appendix manuscript. This is because the
>illustration published in "A True and Faithful Relation..." is also
>exactly backwards. Reading the vision which Kelly is sent by Ave
>(essentially the same vision is repeated on pages 168 & 171 in the "True
>and Faithul Relation"), the directions are clearly East=Red, South=White,
>West=Green and North=Black.
I'll have to check this. There was a convention of reversal in many
printed books from the seventeenth and eighteenth century.
>Either the gold medallion is a forgery produced after the publication of
>the book (my suspicion), or else Dee was paying very poor attention to his
>order when he contracted the work. Also note that there are 25, not 24
>"seniors" in the center on the medallion (drawn correctly on the
>original), another error, and further suggestion of forgery.
This is possible, though difficult if not impossible to prove.
>Dee does not give a sigil for PARAOAN in Sloane 3191 or elsewhere. The
>cell where the sigil should go is left blank in the manuscript. James and
>Turner each give a different sigil (in "Enochian Evocation" and
>"Elizabethan Magic".
>Dee does place him squarely in the middle of LIN, the 22nd Aethyr. By what
>rationale would you remove him from there?
I wouldn't, necessarily. I'm still working on the arrangement.
>If one understands there to be 92 rather than 91, I thought this was
>"Laxdizi" (not to be confused with "Lazdixi"). Any opinion on where he
>should go?
>>James' presentation of the Reformed Great Tablet is accurate to
>>_True_and_Faithful_Relation_ and to Sloane 3191 -- the version in
>>Dee's own handwriting.
>Sadly, this is also incorrect. On the horizontal line of the Black Cross,
>James gives us "mobit aTnan nantTa bitom" rather than "motib aTnan nanTa
>bitom".
> ***** *****
>James has not corrected this even after twelve years.
Luckily, that is obviously wrong and easily corrected. I should have
added "with the exception of reversing the letters in BITOM" to that
statement.
>Best wishes,
>Clay
--SMS--
Scott M. Stenwick
cho...@netcom.com (Clay Holden) wrote:
>Apart from considerations of which element ought to be attributed to which
>quarter (which Dee does not address - the whole thing is referred to as
>the "Great Tablet of the Earth"), the four directions which appear on the
>golden disk are exactly backwards from Dee's original illustration as it
>appears in the Cotton Appendix manuscript. This is because the
>illustration published in "A True and Faithful Relation..." is also
>exactly backwards. Reading the vision which Kelly is sent by Ave
>(essentially the same vision is repeated on pages 168 & 171 in the "True
>and Faithul Relation"), the directions are clearly East=Red, South=White,
>West=Green and North=Black.
I'll check this again in _True_and_Faithful_Relation_. This is
something to watch out for in early printed books. I have seen
research suggesting that there was a convention of diagram reversal in
printed documents from about the seventeenth to the eighteenth
century. This is obvious in many scientific books of the time.
>Either the gold medallion is a forgery produced after the publication of
>the book (my suspicion), or else Dee was paying very poor attention to his
>order when he contracted the work. Also note that there are 25, not 24
>"seniors" in the center on the medallion (drawn correctly on the
>original), another error, and further suggestion of forgery.
This is possible, though it would be very difficult to conclusively
demonstrate. I assume the book you are referring to is
_True_and_Faithful_Relation_ -- the disk they have at the British
museum is obvously not modern.
>Dee does not give a sigil for PARAOAN in Sloane 3191 or elsewhere. The
>cell where the sigil should go is left blank in the manuscript. James and
>Turner each give a different sigil (in "Enochian Evocation" and
>"Elizabethan Magic".
>Dee does place him squarely in the middle of LIN, the 22nd Aethyr. By what
>rationale would you remove him from there?
I wouldn't, necessarily. I'm still working through a lot of this
material.
>>James' presentation of the Reformed Great Tablet is accurate to
>>_True_and_Faithful_Relation_ and to Sloane 3191 -- the version in
>>Dee's own handwriting.
>Sadly, this is also incorrect. On the horizontal line of the Black Cross,
>James gives us "mobit aTnan nantTa bitom" rather than "motib aTnan nanTa
>bitom".
> ***** *****
>James has not corrected this even after twelve years.
Luckily, it is obviously wrong and easily corrected at first glance.
I should have added "aside from reversing the letters in BITOM" to
Driver Ate
In article <4tjjsc$2...@blackice.winternet.com>, sc...@solutions.solon.com
(Scott M. Stenwick) wrote:
| Path:
|
nntp.crl.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!news2.acs.oakland.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!winternet.com!news
| From: sc...@solutions.solon.com (Scott M. Stenwick)
| Newsgroups: alt.magick
| Subject: Re: D.J. Conway
| Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 02:16:27 GMT
It isn't even 1:30 UTC time yet and you already have 2:16 as the time.
what gives?!
| Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
| Lines: 60
| Message-ID: <4tjjsc$2...@blackice.winternet.com>
| References: <4snt2v$o...@news.xs4all.nl> <4sokth$f...@eve.speakeasy.org>
| <charlajwD...@netcom.com> <4sr8np$4...@eve.speakeasy.org>
| <taliesin-220...@duncan.hrc.utexas.edu>
| <4t72vh$n...@eve.speakeasy.org> <azothDv...@netcom.com>
| <4t9fi9$l...@blackice.winternet.com> <cholden-2907...@10.0.2.15>
| NNTP-Posting-Host: scott.solon.com
| X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
|
| cho...@netcom.com (Clay Holden) wrote:
|
| >Apart from considerations of which element ought to be attributed to which
| >quarter (which Dee does not address - the whole thing is referred to as
| >the "Great Tablet of the Earth"), the four directions which appear on the
| >golden disk are exactly backwards from Dee's original illustration as it
--snip--
| > ***** *****
| >James has not corrected this even after twelve years.
|
| Luckily, that is obviously wrong and easily corrected. I should have
| added "with the exception of reversing the letters in BITOM" to that
| statement.
|
| >Best wishes,
|
| >Clay
|
|
| --SMS--
--
driver ate
Another Mikey took a knife while arguing in traffic
Flipper died a natural death he caught a nasty virus
Then there was the ever - present football player rapist
They were all in love with dyin' They were doing it in Texas --bs
Jeff A Haslett
joshua geller (jos...@alkahest.isas.com) wrote:
: In article <charlajwD...@netcom.com> char...@netcom.com (Charla
: J. Williams) writes:
: > Hi Al!
: > Al Billings (mi...@speakeasy.org) wrote:
: > : I wouldn't take anything that D.J. Conway wrote as worth the
: > : paper it is printed out. She is a hack writer who cranks out low
: > : end books. Sorry but it's true.
: > I'm surprised that Conway's article on John Dee and the apocalypse
: > in the current issue of Gnosis hasn't come up for discussion yet.
: gnosis: doomed?
: josh
I personally think that you are a mother fucking cock sucking peice of
shit to actually say such a thing as that you epice of shit!!!!!!!!!!!
D.J. Conway is certainly not what you said she was you piss hole and if
you really want to say something to me go to the pagan dicussion groups
and type in or look for the number 219 titled Witchcraft by me!!!!--
Jeff A. Haslett
z005...@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
Jeff A Haslett
@blackice.winternet.com> <azothDv...@netcom.com> <4tjdos$o...@blackice.winternet.com>
Organization: SEFLIN Free-Net - Broward
Distribution:
Scott M. Stenwick (sc...@solutions.solon.com) wrote:
: az...@netcom.com (Az0th) wrote:
: >Hi Scott,
: Exactly.
: >: James' presentation of the Reformed Great Tablet is accurate to
: >: _True_and_Faithful_Relation_ and to Sloane 3191 -- the version in
: >: Dee's own handwriting.
: >Yes. I was referring to his other Great Table, which is intended to
: --SMS--
I personally think that D.J. Conway is the most wonderful athor who
writes books on witchcraft ( which is no an occult religion and most of
all IT IS NOT SUPERNATURALE) and magic you can possibly
buy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! --
Jeff A. Haslett
z005...@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
Jeff A Haslett
joshua geller (jos...@alkahest.isas.com) wrote:
: In article <charlajwD...@netcom.com> char...@netcom.com (Charla
: J. Williams) writes:
: > Hi Al!
: > Al Billings (mi...@speakeasy.org) wrote:
: > : I wouldn't take anything that D.J. Conway wrote as worth the
: > : paper it is printed out. She is a hack writer who cranks out low
: > : end books. Sorry but it's true.
: > I'm surprised that Conway's article on John Dee and the apocalypse
: > in the current issue of Gnosis hasn't come up for discussion yet.
: gnosis: doomed?
: josh
I also would like to add that DJ. Conway is the most brilliant athor who
has ever set foot on this world.--
Jeff A. Haslett
z005...@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
Scott M. Stenwick
sc...@solutions.solon.com (Scott M. Stenwick) wrote:
>cho...@netcom.com (Clay Holden) wrote:
>>Apart from considerations of which element ought to be attributed to which
>>quarter (which Dee does not address - the whole thing is referred to as
>>the "Great Tablet of the Earth"), the four directions which appear on the
>>golden disk are exactly backwards from Dee's original illustration as it
>>appears in the Cotton Appendix manuscript. This is because the
>>illustration published in "A True and Faithful Relation..." is also
>>exactly backwards. Reading the vision which Kelly is sent by Ave
>>(essentially the same vision is repeated on pages 168 & 171 in the "True
>>and Faithul Relation"), the directions are clearly East=Red, South=White,
>>West=Green and North=Black.
>I'll have to check this. There was a convention of reversal in many
>printed books from the seventeenth and eighteenth century.
I've checked it. You are absolutely correct, and this throws a whole
new element into the system. I would be tempted to say that this
simply implies an "Aries rising" zodiac arrangement, except for a
couple key points.
The order of the Angels of the Quarters is Medicine, Precious Stones,
Transformation, and Living Creatures (or the Four Elements). Precious
Stones is obviously Earth and Transformation is obviously Fire, and
given Dee's Hermetic outlook Medicine is most likely Air. Assigning
Living Creatures to Water is also reasonable, even though the
conjuration itself includes all aspects of all four elements (giving
us additional elemental attributions for each of the Angels of the
Quarters, I might add -- attributions following the EHNB order from
top to bottom for each subquadrant). This also agrees with the Great
Circle of the Quarters (James, p. 119) which shows ORO IBAH AOZPI in
the East, MOR DIAL HCTGA in the South, OIP TEAA PDOCE in the West, and
MPH ARSL GAIOL in the North. The reference to TERRA written within
the square divided into quadrants is also obviously a reference to the
Great Table itself. This gives the "Tyson" arrangement of the Great
Table, and the orientation shows that the upper left quadrant is
intended to represent east.
IMHO, Fire is unlikely to be attributed to Medicine and Air is
unlikely to be attributed to Transformation, though I suppose some
sort of alchemical argument could be made. I do not, however, see
any reasonable way to justify attributing Precious Stones to Water
rather than Earth.
Given all of this, I am uncertain what to make of Kelly's vision of
the various cloths. I have considered the construction of the twelve
Enochian banners, and it is worth noting that Air and Fire are
attributed to complementary colors, as are Water and Earth. Perhaps
the banners are intended to be designed in flashing colors, so we
would have a reversal in terms of the backdrops of the cloth banners.
This would make the banner for Air have green lettering on a red
backdrop, Earth black lettering on a white backdrop, Fire red
lettering on a green backdrop, and Water white lettering on a black
backdrop. Needless to say, this does assume that the Quadrants and
Subquadrants of the Great Table are attributed to the elements, but I
have found this to be the case in my own workings and so have many
other magicians. It is clear that they are at least attributed to the
directions.
The trouble with the whole system is that it the manuscripts we have
are mostly complete, but not totally complete. This means that any
magician working with the system has to fill in the cracks -- and in
many ways, this is a useful exercise in and of itself.
--SMS--
Jonathan A. Frater
Get in touch with me at oyap...@chelsea.ios.com
I know someone who works more extensively with dragons then possibly
anyone else alive. He'll talk to you if you want him to.
XXX-The Gris Gris Lady
oyap...@chelsea.ios.com
(Not Jon Frater.)
Nick Farrell
In article <4tgfd4$4...@eve.speakeasy.org>, Al Billings
<mi...@speakeasy.org> writes
>George Leake (tali...@mail.utexas.edu) wrote:
>
> No, the point is that if you're unstable already, you have no business
>messing with magic AT ALL, enochian or otherwise.
>
Given the fact that most occultists are by nature a little unstable, and that
occult practices do destablise the personality for a time, that would mean that
no-one would be able to do magic.
--
Nick Farrell
Charla J. Williams
Hi Scott,
Scott M. Stenwick (sc...@solutions.solon.com) wrote:
: I've checked it. You are absolutely correct, and this throws a whole
: new element into the system. I would be tempted to say that this
: simply implies an "Aries rising" zodiac arrangement, except for a
: couple key points.
This idea of ordering of the directions and elements is something
that keeps bothering me about Dee's and Kelly's work. I haven't resolved
it yet but I keep at it.
A friend once told me that he read in an older German Rosicrucian
book about a different ordering of the elements, 12 orderings in all,
assigned to different disciplines. Astrology has one, Tarot has one,
Alchemy has another, etc. I'd love to have the specifics on this.
Dee being an astrologer, I've been playing with the idea of East
to the left for 6:00 A.M., South at the top for noon, West at the
right for 6:00 P.M. and North at the bottom for the Nadir or midnight.
This is in relation to the Sigillum Dei Aemeth and also to the Great
Table.
I'm also interesting in looking at Dee's astrological chart (given
in Robert Turner's _Elizabethan Magic_) and how it relates to
Kelly's chart (given in Ashmole's _Theatrum Chemicum Britannicum_).
My 1/2 cents worth.
Regards, Charla
char...@netcom.com
Nick Farrell
In article <4tmip2$k...@blackice.winternet.com>, "Scott M. Stenwick"
<sc...@solutions.solon.com> writes
>sc...@solutions.solon.com (Scott M. Stenwick) wrote:
>
>>cho...@netcom.com (Clay Holden) wrote:
>
>>>Apart from considerations of which element ought to be attributed to which
>>>quarter (which Dee does not address - the whole thing is referred to as
>>>the "Great Tablet of the Earth"), the four directions which appear on the
>>>golden disk are exactly backwards from Dee's original illustration as it
>>>appears in the Cotton Appendix manuscript. This is because the
>>>illustration published in "A True and Faithful Relation..." is also
>>>exactly backwards. Reading the vision which Kelly is sent by Ave
>>>(essentially the same vision is repeated on pages 168 & 171 in the "True
>>>and Faithul Relation"), the directions are clearly East=Red, South=White,
>>>West=Green and North=Black.
>
>>I'll have to check this. There was a convention of reversal in many
>>printed books from the seventeenth and eighteenth century.
>
>new element into the system. I would be tempted to say that this
>simply implies an "Aries rising" zodiac arrangement, except for a
>couple key points.
>
Or maybe, as the learned discourse above hints, the elemental attribution to the
tablets is bogus. Coming as it does from a 17th century manuscript, which is
clrearly someone sitting down with a copy of Causabon and trying to contruct a
system. This document - I think it is called Sloane 306 was incorporated into
the GD teaching and remained "Enochian law" ever since
--
Nick Farrell
Clay Holden
In article <axZLdGACU9$xE...@edfu.demon.co.uk>, Nick Farrell
<ed...@edfu.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>..maybe, as the learned discourse above hints, the elemental attribution to the
>tablets is bogus. Coming as it does from a 17th century manuscript, which is
>clrearly someone sitting down with a copy of Causabon and trying to contruct a
>system. This document - I think it is called Sloane 306 was incorporated into
>the GD teaching and remained "Enochian law" ever since
The manuscript you are referring to is Sloane MS. 307, with another copy
in Sloane MS. 3821 being almost identical, save without the image of the
"Great Tablet of the Earth" at the front.
This image follows the orthography of the 1587 "reformed" Tablet, but
contrary to the suggestion above, does *not* attribute elements to the
Tables. The whole is referred to as "The Practice of the Tables", and then
is further divided into "The Practice of the East Table", etc. All of the
instructions concern operations of various "quadrangles" and "angles",
with no reference to elements.
Also, neither manuscript copy features the Golden Dawn's trademark use of
multiple characters in individual cells. As with the elemental
attributions, this would also appear to be an addition of Westcott (who
acknowledge using Sloane 307 in handwritten notes to a copy of Flying Roll
XVI, according to Robert Turner in "Elizabethan Magic", pg. 89) or another
member of the Order.
In order to correlate the various versions of letter attributions to
various cells, Westcott (or whoever) must have had access not only to
Casaubon's book and Sloane MS. 307, but must also to either Sloane MS.
3191 or Ashmole's copy of the same, Sloane MS. 3678, which is where Dee
fills various squares with strike-out corrections in an attempt to bring
the 1584 and 1587 Tables into agreement, and also to bring the whole into
agreement with the names he had recorded in "Liber Scientiae, Auxilii et
Victoria Terrestris".
Sloane MS. 307 is done in two colors, with the Angelic names and images of
sections of the Tables being done in what appears to have been red ink.
In Sloane MS. 3821, by the way, some of the folios and numerous
corrections of scribal errors (indicating that this was not the original)
are in the hand of Elias Ashmole, which indicates that he at least had it
in his possession at some time. This puts the whole thing into the late
16th century, though whether before or after Ashmole obtained what are now
Sloane MSS. 3188 and 3191 is not clear. I do not find Ashmole's
handwriting in Sloane MS. 307.
The whole is exhaustive and turgid, with the operations of every square on
every Table covered in full, replete with obsequious prayers to God, the
Angels, and the ruling intelligences of every quarter and sub-quarter.
Of particular note is a horrid prayer called "Enoch's Prayer", which
certainly does not originate with Dee, and which I will post as an
immediate followup.
In an additional followup, I will post a transcription I did a few years
ago of the first section of Sloane MS. 307.
Hoping this is of some interest,
Clay Holden
What follows is the text of "Enoch's Prayer", transcribed from Sloane MSS.
307 and 3821.
Transcribed by Clay Holden <cho...@netcom.com>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ENOCH'S PRAYER
O Almighty, Immortall, Immense, Incomprehensible, & most high God & Lord
of Hosts, Jehovah, the only Creator of Heaven & Earth, & all things
conteyned therein, who in thy wonderfull & great works of the Creation,
hast miraculously pointed out many Hierarchies, of sacred Caelestiall
Angells & blessed Intelligences, and placed them in a most admirable order
above the fiery Region; and also many other Hierarchies & Orders
dignified, Elementall Ministring Spirits, or Angelicall powers of Light,
under the same &c: and hast appointed them all to serve thee, & obey thy
commands, in every & each of their severall & respective places, natures,
orders & offices; & by thy gracious & divine permission, to move, descend
& visibly appeare unto the Sons of men dwelling on Earth, whensoever they
shall Invocate or call them forth, to their conduct, comfort & benefit, O
thou omnipotent & perpetuate full flowing fountaine of eternall life,
light, majesty, power, glory, goodness, clemency & paternall bounty, & of
all wisdome & true knowledge, both Caelestiall & Terrestriall, descending
by certaine Rivolets of mercy, immediately by the holy Ghost, unto more
choice & peculiar vessels of honour, & by emmanations of divine Grace,
mediately by the sacred Caelestiall Angells or blessed Intelligences &
other ministering Angells, or spirituall Messagers, and mediums of Light,
not by thee rejected but dignified, both Caelestiall & Elementall, of
severall & respective degrees, names, natures, orders & offices, by whose
Angelicall Inspiration & instruction, thou doest fatherly and freely, open
the secrets of thy owne selfe unto Man, thereby shewing forth, the mistery
of true Science & sapience, with its benifits & comforts, to be obteyned &
received in mundaine affaires, & temporall Concernes, &c:
O most high God & father of heaven, thou knowest the foundation of our
fragility, our imperfections, & the darkness & weakness of our inward
parts, how can we therefore speake unto them, that speake not after the
voice of Man; or worthily call on thy name, considering that our
imagination is variable & fruiteless, & unknowne to our selves, shall the
Sands seeme to invite the Mountains, or can the small rivers, entertaine
the wonderfull & unknowne waies, can the vessells of feare, fragility, or
that is of a determinate proportion, lyft up themselves, heave up their
hands, or gather the Sun into their Bosomes? O Lord it cannot be.
Our imaginations are great, we are less than sand; Lord thy good Angells
excell us far, our proportions are not alike, our sences agreeth not, yet
notwithstanding we are comforted for that we have all one God, all one
beginning from thee, that we respect thee a Creator; therefore will we
call upon thy name, & in thee will we become mighty; thou shalt light us,
& we shall become seers; we will see thy Creatures, & we will magnify thee
amongst them; those that come unto thee have the same gate, and through
the same gate, descendeth such as thou sendest: we therefore humbly
beseech thee, O Almighty & most mercifull God, graciously to permit thy
Caelestiall ministring Angells, & alsoe the Elementall dignified Powers,
or Messagers spirituall of Light, to dwell with us & we with them, to
rejoyce with us, that we may magnify thy great & glorious name, & by thy
most gracious, mercifull & divine permission, that as thou art their Light
& comfortest them, soe they in thee wilbe our Light & Comfort.
Lord, they prescribe not Lawes unto thee, so it is not meete that we
should prescribe Lawes unto them. What it pleaseth thee to offer, they
receive; soe what it pleaseth them to offer unto us, will we alsoe
thankfully receive. Behold, Lord, if we shall call upon them in thy Name,
be it unto us in mercy as unto thy Servants.
O Lord, is there any that measureth the Heavens that is mortall? How
therefore can the Heavens enter into mans Imagination, thy Creatures are
the glory of thy Countenance, whereby thou glorifiest all things, which
glory excelleth, & is far above our understanding. Behold, O Lord, how
shall we therefore ascend into the Heavens? The Aire will not carry us,
but resisteth our Folly; we fall downe, because we are of the Earth.
Therefore O thou very light & true comfort, that canst and mayest and
doest command the Heavens, heare us, & have mercy upon us, & grant our
requests, which we humbly make unto thee, & that thou wouldst be
graciously pleased (By thy divine permission) to send all those
Caelestiall & Elementall dignified Angelicall powers of Light, that we
shall call upon by Orders, Names & Offices, to appeare visibly unto us in
this C:S: or G:R: standing heere before us, & that in and through the
same, they may transmit their true and real presence in appearance unto
the sight of our Eyes, & their voices unto our Eares, that we may plainely
see them & audibly heare them speake unto us, & verbally to converse &
commune with us, & to informe, instruct, shew forth & teach us all such
knowledge & Arcanums in nature, as shalbe required by us, & necessary for
us, & to be frendly unto us, & doe for us as for thy servants, both now at
this tyme present, & at all other tymes, whensoever, & wheresoever we
shall move & call them forth, for instruction, relief, comfort &
assistance, in whatsoever shalbe necessary for us, &c:
Enlighten therefore our Eyes O heavenly God, & open thou our Eares, that
we may see thy spirituall Creatures, & heare them speake unto us, quicken,
illuminate & confirme in us, & unto us, our reasons discretions,
judgments, understandings, memoreies, & utterances, that we may be true &
perfect Seers, Hearers & Witnesses of such things which mediately by the
ministry of thy sacred Caelestiall Angells & blessed Intelligences, &
other Elementall dignified Spirits or Messagers spirituall of Light;
shalbe manifested declared & shewed forth unto us, both now & at all tymes
whensoever necessity shall require their favourable & familiar society
comunity and assistance.
And now O all you sacred Caelestiall Angells & blessed Intelligences
Ministers and true Lights of understanding, & O you all dignified
Elementall Ministring Spirits or Angelicall Powers of Light, governing
this earthly fabrick, & the Elements wherein we live, be friendly unto us,
& doe for us, as for the Servants of the highest.
And we further humbly beseech thee (O God) herewith to guide our tongues,
Reasons, Sences & Judgments, & give us eloquent utterances, gravity of
speech, quickness of understanding, prudence in mannaging, temperance in
pursuing, thankefulness in receiving, & grace in using all such
Instructions, Institutions, matters, things or affaires, of what concerne
soever, that shall be revealed, shewed forth or given by Angelicall
Minestry unto us, that all may be converted O Lord, to thy honor & glory,
& to our worldly comforte & benifits.
Make us O Lord humble & obedient without contradiction, poore without
quariling, chast without corruption, patient without murmering, merry
without dissolution, sad withour dejection, ripe without unpleasantness,
fearefull without desperation, true without doublenes of heart, doeing
good things without presumption.
Give us O Lord watchfull hearts, that noe envious or evill cogitations may
lead us away from thee, give us noble & upright hearts, that noe unworthy
affection nor sinister intention may draw us downewards, give us
invincible hearts, that noe tribulation may overcome us, give us
understanding truly to know thee, diligence to seeke thee, wisdome to
finde thee, conversation to please thee, perseverence faithfully to expect
thee, & assured confidence to imbrace thee, & after this lyfe to live with
thee, in thy everlasting Kingdome, where there is certaine security,
secure Eternity, eternall felicity, & most happy tranquility.
O mercifull God, we humbly beseech thee to grant these our humble
Supplications & petitions, which we unfainedly make unto thee. Behold O
Lord, be it unto us, as in mercy it pleaseth thee, & thy holy ministring
Angells; we require nothing but thee & through thee & to thy honor, &
glory.
Amen.
Clay Holden
In article <cholden-3107...@10.0.2.15>, cho...@netcom.com (Clay
Holden) wrote:
> What follows is the text of "Enoch's Prayer", transcribed from Sloane MSS.
> 307 and 3821.
>[...]
> ENOCH'S PRAYER
>
I forgot to mention that the above "prayer" was in the hand of Elias
Ashmole (near the end of Sloane MS. 3821). Whether Ashmole was guilty of
authorship or merely an innocent scribe I do not know...
All weird spellings are those of Ashmole.
All glaring typos are mine.
Cheers,
Clay
--
Clay Holden
> In Sloane MS. 3821, by the way, some of the folios and numerous
> corrections of scribal errors (indicating that this was not the original)
> are in the hand of Elias Ashmole, which indicates that he at least had it
> in his possession at some time. This puts the whole thing into the late
> 16th century,...
****
This should, of course, read "17th century". Sorry for any confusion.
****
Al Billings
Nick Farrell (ed...@edfu.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: In article <4tgfd4$4...@eve.speakeasy.org>, Al Billings
I would disagree that most occultists are unstable or least, most GOOD
ones.
A lot of people are attracted to the occult that shouldn't get involved
with it. I'm talking about people who are already unstable, not people who
go through an unstable period as their work progresses. That can happen to
everyone. If you are unstable to start with and you go through one of
these periods, it could be fairly disastorous. It is bad enough when
you're fairly stable.
Clay Holden
What follows is the first part of one of the documents W.Wynn Westcott
used to create the Golden Dawn's Enochian material. It dates from the late
17th century, and was at one time in the possession of Elias Ashmole.
Transcription by Clay Holden <cho...@netcom.com>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Practice of the Tables
[Being an extract from the beginning of Sloane MSS. 307 & 3821]
_____________________________________________
A Brief Introduction, Unfolding and Explaining the Use of the foregoing
Table or Tables, of the Earth; as it standeth divided, into four parts:
East, West, North & South.
_____________________________________________
Man in his creation being made an Innocent, was also Authorized and made
partaker, of the power, presence, & spirit of God, and a Speaker of His
Mysteries, and the Society of His Blessed Angels, whereby he knew all
things, under his creation, naming them as they were; so that in his
Innocency, he became holy in the sight of God, until that Mighty Devil
Choronzon, (for so is his true name,) Envying his felicity, & perceiving
that the Substance of his Lesser part was frail & Imperfect, in Respect of
his pure Esse, began to assail him, & so prevailed.
_______________________________________________
Then man, thus offending, became accursed in the Sight of God, and so lost
the Garden of Felicity [the true judgment of his understanding,] but not
utterly the favor of God, and was Driven forth into the Earth; which,
being accursed also, for his sake, was Covered with briars & brambles, and
Such Like things, being little profitable to him for food, unless he Daily
Scratched and tore his Skin off his back, to thrust through the thickets
for a few plums, etc.; or hazarding his life, among the Devouring Tigers &
other wild beasts of prey, being a measuring Cast, which of the two (in a
probable sense,) should Devour the Other. But this subject being handled
by Du: Bartas, in his Divine works, we shall say no more thereof.
Now if Adam after his fall, had continued in the Garden of Eden, his
wickedness would have altered the Innocency of the place; therefore is
Paradise Distinguished from the Earth, in respect of her purity, because
the Earth is said, & known to be Corrupted, in Respect of man's Sin. Yet
although the Earth was accursed, for Adam's sake, by reason of his fall,
the Garden of Eden, was not therefore accursed, too, for that remaineth
still, where it was first Erected, & ordained by the Mighty Creator, in
the Vale of Jehosaphat, wherein Liveth Eli, Enoch, and John; who shall
never die, &c:
_______________________________________________
Adam, for his transgression, being cast out of Paradise, & driven a great
distance from thence, into that Depraved World, being there as Dumb, & not
able to speak, (for during the time of his being in Paradise, he spake the
Angelicall & Cælestiall Language, of which he also lost the benefit, & was
deprived of in his fall, and was never since heard of, or known to any,
but some such particular persons, whence God hath been pleased to permit
the same to be Revealed, by his Converse, Society, and oft-time familiar
Community, between them and the Cælestiall Angels,) he began of necessity
to speak the Language, which we call Hebrew, (yet not the same Hebrew
which is amongst us now,) In which Language he Declared & Delivered, to
his posterity, the nearest Knowledge he had of God, his Creatures, & other
his manifold & beautiful mercies, and justice, and from his own self
Divided his Speech, into three parts, Viz.: twelve, three, and seven, the
number whereof remaineth, but the true forms & pronounciations are
wanting, and therefore is not of that force & goodness, that it was
originally in its own Dignity, much less to be Compared, with that
Angelicall, & Cælestiall Language, which Adam verily Spake during his
Innocency; & wherein (by Divine permission,) great Secrets & all
Mysteries, have been Revealed, to several holy, pious, reserved & Studious
men of Old, but we in this latter age, being (in a manner) ever deprived,
of so great, & inestimable a Benefit and blessing as to converse with
Cælestiall Angells; as not being worthy so to do; are left also as
Depraved, in our judgment and reasons, &c.: thus when Adam offended, he
received punishment therefore, that he was turned out into the Earth, for
if he had been turned out into a blessed place, then it could not be said
that he was turned out, for he that is turned out, goeth to Dishonour,
(for God Knowing he would offend, Knew also how to Dishonour him,) so from
Innocency, through his fall, he was turned out to Corruption, into a
prison, prepared for him before; Adam being thus Cast out, & the Earth
cursed for his transgression, thereby bringing all misery, and
Wretchedness into the world, which also befell all posterity and shall
Even so continue to the End of time, for then Did God Suffer & permit the
spirit of malice, to Enter into & have power in the world, and Ever since,
is Perfect Love taken away, from amongst men, who are always at variance,
striving to weed & Destroy one another, & so it must be, and will be to
the End.
And in the same Instant that Adam was Expelled, and the Earth accursed for
his Sake, yet the Infinite mercies of God, were such, that he Also put a
restraint to the wicked Spirits, that by their Envy & malice, they should
not quite Extinguish & Destroy, the Admirable works of his creation,
Neither by their Subtill temptations, and Illusions, for Lô, then said the
Lord of Hosts, Let the world have its time, and let there be Keepers,
Watchmen & Princes, placed over her, for Years, Months, and Days, &c: -----
From hence it plainly appeareth, that the world was not Commited to their
charge with their creation, but afterwards in diverse times & offices,
both to God & man -----------------------------
_______________________________________________
Now we are to understand, thet there are 4 Angels as Overseers thereof,
whom the Eternall God in his providence hath placed against the Usurping
Blasphemy, misuse & stealth of the wicked, and great Enemy or tempter of
man, the Devil, to the end he being put out into the Earth, & permitted to
tempt, and ensnare the Sons of Men, to all manner of wickedness and
Disobedience, to almighty God, their Creator & Protector; yet this way as
a restriction, that his Envious Will might be bridled, the Determinations
of God fulfilled, and his Creatures kept & preserved within the Compass,
and measure of order; what the Evill spirits doth, the good Angels permit,
and what they wink at, the Evil Spirit Wasteth; and mostly when the think
themselves Assured, then they feel the Bit. Thus doth God & the good
Angels, put a Snaffle to the wicked.
Each one of these 4 Angels is a mighty Prince, a mighty Angel of the Lord,
and are by him according to his Divine Order, and Decree, as Chief
Watchmen and Overseers, set over several & Respective parts of the world,
Viz: East, West, North and South, (as under the Almighty) their Governor
Protector & Defender, and his Seals & authorities of whom, are Confirmed
in the Beginning of the World, & to every of them belong 4 Characters,
being tokens of the Presence of the Son Of God, by whom all things were
made in Creation & are the natural marks of holiness, & unto which belong
4 Angels Severally & before Each one of these great Angelical Princes, are
borne 3 Banners, wherein are Displayed 3 Great Names of God, Comprehending
3: 4 & five, which in all are twelve, & these Twelve Great Names of God,
govern all Creatures upon the Earth, both Visible & Invisible. - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - -
_______________________________________________
Each one of these 4 great Angelical Princes, hath 5 Presidential Angels,
or Guardian Princes, attending him; under whom are 6 Angels, called
Seniors, which St. John remembreth (who, as their offices are, &c.) Judge
the government of their mighty Angelical King, & fulfill the Will of God,
as it is written, &c. - - - - -
_______________________________________________
Under which Seniors are 4 Presidential Good Angels, who are Dispositors of
the Commands of those that are the Superiour Governours of the four
principal Angles or Quarters, East, West, North & South, over the which
they are Severally & Respectively Constituted & set over, &c. - - - -
_______________________________________________
Under whom again are many & numberless of Aerial, ministering, Subservient
Spirits, of several offices, both good and bad; all which shall be further
explained, in the opening & Exemplifying the following Tables, &c. - -
_______________________________________________
Which is as followeth: Here we have 4 Tables, or Quadrangles, which are
but One General Table, only Divided into 4 parts: East, West, North &
South. In the Center, between those 4 Quadrangles, is another little
Table joined Cornerly to them all, & serveth to Unite, the several parts
of them together, according as they are to be diversely referred, as shall
be shown hereafter, &c. - - - - - - - - -
_______________________________________________
Each Single Qadrangle Table containeth 12 Squares athwart, and 13
Downwards, the two middle lines downwards [of which] are of Black Letters,
enclosed also within Black ruled lines, and the middle line goeth athwart
that again, composed also of Black Letters, enclosed between two Black
Ruled Lines, and standing crosswise, in the middle of the two
perpendicular or upright lines, make up the name of the mighty Angelical
King, & the 3 Names of God, displayed in the Regal Banner, borne before
him, being the Arms of the Ensigne, and the names of 6 Angelical Seniors,
governing in that Angle or Quarter of the compass, which they are set
over. In every lesser Angle of every Quadrangular Table, standeth also
Black letters, enclosed within black ruled lines crosswise, in form of a
Crucifix thus: Ý Out of which are collected, the names of God that
Calleth Forth & Constraineth those Angels & Spirits, both good & bad, that
are to be gathered, out of that particular lesser Angle, belonging &
serving to that Quarterly Angle, or Table. The particular Exemplification
of all is as followeth, Viz: As in the East Quadrangle or Quarterly
Table, which is the first Quadrangle, on the top towards the left hand,
the two middle upward or perpendicular Black Lines, the first of them,
from the top downwards to the bottom, hath these thirteen letters, Viz:
f.i.a.x.o.a.A.v.T.o.T.a.r.; the second, which is the next upright or
perpendicular Black Line to it, from the top down, to the bottom, hath
these thirteen letters: A.d.r.o.m.T.h.i.P.o.t.g.a.; the middle Black Line
standing crosswise, athwart these two upright or perpendicular Black
Lines, hath these 12 letters: o.r.o.i.b.a.A.h.a.o.z.p.i.; being all added
together, & set Crosswise in Order as they stand in the Quadrangular
Table, stand thus, as in the annexed form is represented, & so make the
similitude of a Cross:
_______________________________________________
f A
i d
a r
x o
o m
a T
o r o i b A h a o z p e
V i
T p
o o
T t
a g
r a
In the Center of this cross-like example, is contained the Name of the
great and mighty Angelical King , set as a Governor, Overseer or Watchman
over the East Angle, & is thus collected.
_______________________________________________
There is (B) the fifth letter, in the middle Black Line athwart, and (A)
the sixth letter, in the perpendicular line, accounting from the top
downwards, and (T) the sixth letter, in the second perpendicular, from the
top downwards, and (A) the fifth letter, from the right-hand to the left,
in the said middle, overthwart line, and (I) the sixth letter, ascending
from the lowermost part of the second perpendicular line upwards, and (V)
the sixth letter ascending from the lowermost part of the first upright
line, standing
A T
B A
V I
thus unto which six letters, being added together, put the letter
(A) or (H), which two letters are concentrated with the aforesaid six
letters, either of them serveth, and these seven or eight letters make up
the neme BATAIVA or BATAIVH or BATAIVAH, which letters set together, as
they stand in the Table, & they stand Hetrecomaces or Centrally
A T
B A H A
V I
therein thus: And this is the true name of the mighty Angelicall
King, Watchman and Overseer of the East Angle, or Quarter of the World,
&c. Moreover, divide the middle cross line into 3 parts, from the
left-hand to the right, and divide it into 3:4: or five letters and they
will make up these 3 words: Oro, Ibah, Aozpi, which are the 3 Great Names
of God, borne in the 3 Banners, or the Arms of the Ensigns, belonging to
the great and mighty Angel bataiva, King & Governor of the East Angle.
- - - - -
_______________________________________________
The names of the six Angelicall Seniors, ruling in the East Angle, under
this great Prince, BATAIVA, which are thus collected, the sixth letter of
the middle transverse or Cross-line going athwart, & the two upright Black
lines is A and the letters from the right hand to the left following it,
as it were, backwards, are b.i.o.r.o., which maketh the name of Abioro, &
it is the name of the First Angelicall Senior, made up of six letters, and
if the letter H which followeth the letter A and is the seventh letter of
the said transverseline, be added to and set before the other six letters,
it maketh the name Habioro and is the name of the said First Angelicall
Senior, comprehended of seven letters.
_______________________________________________
Then take the aforesaid letter A again, (being the sixth letter in the
middle transverse Black line as aforesaid) & ascend upward, from thence to
the top or uppermost letter of the first upright Black line, and they are
A.a.o.x.a.i.f., making the word Aaoxaif, which is the name of the Second
Angelicall Senior.
_______________________________________________
Then again take the letter H which is the seventh letter in the said
Middle transverse Black line, from the left to the right, and ascend from
thece, to the uppermost letter in the second perpendicular line, and the
letters are H.T.m.o.r.d.A., which maketh the word Hetemorda, and is the
name of the Third Angelicall Senior.
_______________________________________________
Then again take the letter H which is the seventh letter in the said
Middle transverse Black line, from the left to the right, and the letters
following it forwards, and they are H.a.o.z.p.i., which maketh the word
Haozpi, and is the name of the Fourth Angelicall Senior, composed of six
letters, and if the letter A that standeth just next before the letter h
be added thereto, and set before the other six letters, then it maketh the
name Ahaozpi, which is the name of the Fourth Angelicall Senior, composed
of seven letters.
_______________________________________________
Againe take the said letter H, the seventh letter of the middle transverse
line, and descend from thence Downwards, to the bottom or last letter in
the second perpendicular line, and the letters are H.i.p.o.t.g.a., making
the word Hipotga, which is the name of the Fifth Angelicall Senior.
_______________________________________________
And then again, take the letter A, being the sixth letter in the middle
transverse line, from the left to the right, and from thence also descend
downwards, to the lowermost letter in the first Upright line, which are
these: A.u.T.oT.a.r., which maketh the word Autotar, & is the name of the
Sixth & last Angelicall Senior, ruling in the East Angle.
_______________________________________________
The name of this great Angelicall and Mighty Angel, or King of the East
BATAIVA, upon whom all the Angels and Spirits of the four Lesser Angles in
the Quadrangle of the East attend and give Obedience, calleth out the
fore-recited Six Seniors, whose Offices are to give Scientiam Rerum,
Humanarum & judicium, according to the nature of their parts, as in the
East after one manner, in the West after another, and so of the rest,
according to their several gubernations.
_______________________________________________
Now for the sixteen Servient Angels, next in order, under the six
Angelicall Seniors, in this Eastern Quadrangle, their namesxto be
collected, & composed, out of each Lesser Angle, attendant on the Greater
Angle; thus in the Uppermost Lesser Angle, on the left hand of this
Quadrangular Table, there is a small crosslike forme of black letters,
whose perpendicular ur upright line reacheth from the top of the said
Lesser Angle to the Middle Black transverse line, that goeth athwart that
Quadrangle, and containeth six leters, from the top downwards, which are
i.d.i.o.g.i.o. , making the name Idoigo, the which is one name of God,
which is used to call forth the Subservient Good Angels, who are Attendant
next in Order, under those Sixteen Angels, next succeeding the Six
Seniors, according to their graduation.
_______________________________________________
The transverse line, going athwart that upright line in this Lesser Angle,
being the uppermost line but one, is of five letters, & are these
A.r.d.z.a., making the nameArdza, which is another name of God; now as the
Benevolent Angels serving in this said Lesser Angle, under the afore said
sixteen, are ruled by and called forth by this name, Idoigo, so byu the
name Ardza, they do what they are commanded; all which shall be further
explained, in exemplification, hereafter following, in their proper
places.
_______________________________________________
i r Z i l a
a r d Z a a r d Z a
o c z o n s
i T o i T t
g S i g a s
o f m o n d
This annexed Example is the form of the Black letters, as they stand
crosswise, in the uppermost lesser Angle of the Quadrangle. Over this
lesser transverse, are 4 Red letters, which are r.z.l.a., setting aside or
leaving out the Black letter i standing in the middle between them, and it
maketh the name Urzla, and this is the substance of the first of those
Sixteen Angels before spoken of, Bearing Rule, next under the Six Seniors,
in the East Quadrangle. Then take away the first of these Red letters,
which is r, and make it the last, & it maketh the name Zlar, or Zodelar,
(for Z, extended is to be pronounced Zod) which maketh the name of the
second of the aforesaid Sixteen Angels. Again, make the first letter of
the second name, which is Z, the last letter of the third name, and it
makes up the name Larzod which is the name of the third of the Sixteen
Angels aforesaid. Then again by making the first of these 4 letters of
the last name, the last letter thereof, then will the letters be a.r.z.l.,
which makes the name Arzel, and is the fourth of the aforesaid Sixteen
Angels, and the last are the four Superiour Angels, bearing Rule under the
Six Seniors, in this first Lesser Angle, serving to the Greater Eastern
Quadrangle, or East Quarterm of the Table, and thus collected, and
gathered together. So are the names of the other twelve Angels set as
Governors, and Superiours, over the 3 other lesser Angles, subservient to
this Quadrangle.
_______________________________________________
l u t l p a
P a L a m P a L a m
a o Y a u b
c P a c o C
z r b z n h
a d i a r i
As for example, the Second Lesser Succeeding Angle of this Eastern
Quaterne, is that on the Right hand above, next to this here above
explained, & hath in its upright, or perpendicular Black line these six
letters l.L.a.c.z.a.making the name Lelacza, which is also a Great Name
of God; the transverse Black line whereof hath these letters p.a.L.a.m.,
which being set together, as they are in the Quadrangular Table, stand as
in this Annexed Exemplification is hereunto affixed.
The four Red letters, over the Black transverse line, of this Second
Lesser Angle of this Eastern Quadrangle, are u.t.p.a., making the name
Utepa, which is the name of the fifth of the aforesaid sixteen Angels, and
the first of the four superiour Angels, set over the Second Lesser Angle,
and governing therein, next under the Six Seniors.
Then as before, in the Example of the First Lesser Angle, take away the
first letter of these four, & make it the last of the name, then it will
be Tepau, which is the name of the sixth of the Sixteen Angels aforesaid,
and the second of the Great Benevolent Angels, governing in this Second
Lesser Angle.
Again, take away the first letter of the second name, and make it the
last, then it will be Paut, which is the name of the seventh of these
forementioned Angels, and of the third, Benevolent Great Angel set over
the Second Lesser Angle.
Likewise, take away the first letter, of this last name, and make it the
last, then it will make the name Autep, which is the name of the Eighth of
the fore-Recited Sixteen Angels, set over this Second Lesser Angle.
The other eight Angels names are to be collected after the same manner,
out of the other two Lesser Angles serving in the Eastern Quadrangle, that
one on the left hand, underneath, being the Third Lesser Angle,
successively next following to the Second, being the Lesser Angle on the
Right-hand, underneath is the Fourth and last of the Lesser Angles,
serving to this Quarterly Great Angle.
Every of the aforesaid Four Angles, whose names are thus gathered out of
every Lesser Angle of the Greater Quadrangle wherein they are contained,
are Great and Benevolent Angels, & bear Rule & Govern over those several
Angles, successively under whom also are several Benevolent Angels, but
far more Inferiour in Power, yet of the same nature, as their Superiours
are; under whom again are many Angels and Spirits of various & different
natures, both good and bad, whose Offices are also manifold & various,
gradually in their Orders, according as Divine Authority hath decreed and
appointed, both as to good & bad effects & purposes
As for example, those Benevolent Angels whose offices are of Physick, as
they by their temperence & Benevolence Cure Diseases, and by their
Splendidness and Cælestial Irradiations, preserve the Elemental Vigour and
Radical humidity of things, to the prolongation of life & health,
according to the nature of their parts, &c.
So the Malevolent & Evil Spirits, whose names are collected out ot the
same Lesser Angle, from whence the good Angels names are gathered of the
aforesaid office, are opposite in nature to them, as to their Malignity
and Envy to the prosperity of theings; for instead of curing Diseases,
they bring them in, and when permitted, by the Superiour Powers, do
thereby Mortify and Destroy things, and by their more gross, Evil,
Terrestrial and poisonous rays (being comparitively the same as the Airial
Vapours of the Earth), weaken, in fact, Mortify and Destroy the Elemental
Vigor & Radical moisture of things; so that if their Envious Will were not
bridled and Restrained, nothing in this world could be preserved. But of
this matter, more shall be said & explained in its proper place.
Al Billings
Nick Farrell (ed...@edfu.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: In article <4tb6f6$n...@jobe.shell.portal.com>, nagasiva
Tyson has made plenty of comments in the past that made it clear that he
considers most of magic to be an intellectual exercise. He isn't much of a
practicing magician.
William G. Parke IV
z005...@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us (Jeff A Haslett) wrote:
(huge text of interesting and informative Enochian debate and
constructive conversation snipped)
>I personally think that D.J. Conway is the most wonderful athor who
>writes books on witchcraft ( which is no an occult religion and most of
>all IT IS NOT SUPERNATURALE) and magic you can possibly
>buy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! --
>
>Jeff A. Haslett
>z005...@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
response to an entirely unrelated discussion), and why would you be this
strongly for the most bigoted Wiccan author(ess/ette) that I ever got
stuck owning?
-That Damn Kid
& His Overstated Bias
William G. Parke IV
Care to tell us why? All I've ever seen her do is take the usual scraps
of paganry that most armchair occultists do, stitch them together under
some broad theme ("shamanic" paganry, moon magic, or god knows what
else), talk about Xians as narrowminded buffons (at best), and then claim
to have found some deep wonderful secret of the pagan world. Starhawk is
better than this stuff . . .
George Leake
mi...@speakeasy.org (Al Billings) wrote:
>I would disagree that most occultists are unstable or least, most GOOD ones.
>A lot of people are attracted to the occult that shouldn't get involved
> with it. I'm talking about people who are already unstable, not people who
> go through an unstable period as their work progresses. That can happen to
> everyone. If you are unstable to start with and you go through one of
> these periods, it could be fairly disastorous. It is bad enough when
> you're fairly stable.
*Al is entirely right here. Also some people become unstable due to
external forces. Too much drug use. Stresses from family and work. From
mundane to supernatural forces--shouldn't the adept be unassailable before
attempting the Great Work?
George Leake
>>George Leake (tali...@mail.utexas.edu) wrote:
>>No, the point is that if you're unstable already, you have no business
messing with magic AT ALL, enochian or otherwise.
Nick Farrell <ed...@edfu.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Given the fact that most occultists are by nature a little unstable, and
that occult practices do destablise the personality for a time, that
would mean that no-one would be able to do magic.
*I'd like to see the evidence. I just think this kind of assertion is a
bit broad.
Paul Hume
t> external forces. Too much drug use. Stresses from family and work. From
t> mundane to supernatural forces--shouldn't the adept
t> be unassailable before
t> attempting the Great Work?
Um - you don't know you are unassailable until you are assailed (g). Dealing
with nine tons of personal shit and deciding to take the Oath ofthe Abyss in
the midst of it is one kind of error. Putting off the work
because youmight still be vulnerable, with vulnerability an unknowable
factor until you tackle the work,is another.
Somewhere in the middle (again? boring! (g)) lies the answer, I suspect.
Paul
Cat Tambling & Jim Buttitta
On 30 Jul 1996 22:19:11 GMT, z005...@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us (Jeff
A Haslett) wrote in response to others referring to D.J. Conway as a
hack writer::
>
>
>I personally think that you are a mother fucking cock sucking peice of
>shit to actually say such a thing as that you epice of shit!!!!!!!!!!!
>D.J. Conway is certainly not what you said she was you piss hole and if
>you really want to say something to me go to the pagan dicussion groups
>and type in or look for the number 219 titled Witchcraft by me!!!!--
>
>Jeff A. Haslett
>z005...@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
>
Sarcastic mode on:
My what a brilliant statement in support of Conway.
Mode off
Unfortunately Conway's books are mostly awful. Your idiotic
profanity does nothing to dissuade my opinion that she is a hack,
and I doubt if changed the opinion of the original poster either.
Az0th
93 Paul!
: Um - you don't know you are unassailable until you are assailed (g). Dealing
: with nine tons of personal shit and deciding to take the Oath ofthe Abyss in
: the midst of it is one kind of error. Putting off the work
: because youmight still be vulnerable, with vulnerability an unknowable
: factor until you tackle the work,is another.
:
: Somewhere in the middle (again? boring! (g)) lies the answer, I suspect.
The middle, or the Center? };-] I think stability per se is vastly
overrated, and is more properly to be applied to potted plants and
shrubberies. Balance in motion, in the martial sense, is a better
value for people, though this might be putting the horse behind the
cart; it's dreadfully hard to be centered when you still don't know
who you are, but probably not impossible.
I also think 'unassailability' is usually an illusion, and anybody
depending on such an illusion deserves what he gets. The only way I
know to be truly unassailable is to not be there to be assailed, and
that _is_ tricky.
93 93/93