Re: The Black Poop....
Bringer of Darkness
KoriHoughton <koriho...@gmail.com>:
>It's true! ...aka the Black Poop....
<snip>
so is it a competition for who will be called "The Black Pope"?
news reports have positioned HP Peter Gilmore in that slot when
doing stories on the CoS and their rites and holy days. is it
something the Satanic Herd vies over?
nocTifer
--------------------------------------------
satanservice.org@nocTifer
--------------------------------------------
KoriHoughton
wrote:
> Hail Satan, Kori!
>
> KoriHoughton <korihough...@gmail.com>:>It's true! ...aka the Black Poop....
>
> <snip>
>
> so is it a competition for who will be called "The Black Pope"?
> news reports have positioned HP Peter Gilmore in that slot when
> doing stories on the CoS and their rites and holy days. is it
> something the Satanic Herd vies over?
>
> nocTifer
> --------------------------------------------
> satanservice.org@nocTifer
> --------------------------------------------
Yo, Bobo! Is that you, D00d?
I don't know Mr. Gilmore, and have never interacted with him in any
way, so I am not in a position to know his thoughts or intentions on
this subject.
I can say that Blackwood has spent more words in public on the web (in
writing and on his voice blog) about the COS than COS members have on
Blackwood's Temples of Satan. In my opinion (and that's all it is) I
doubt that Gilmore or any COS higher ups want to recruit Blackwood's
followers to their org.
I think there may be some competition for Black Poop among non-COS
Satanists, and I don't mean the Theistics, like Diane Vera. I refer
to the 'flash of brimstone' groups that seem to start out with a butt
load of talking heads with exalted titles, make some noise, and then
vanish when the org rips itself apart over ego conflicts. Definitely
I see Blackwood in that light; only Blackwood keeps coming back for
more, sounding crazier all the time IMO.
I'm not a Satanist, but Blackwood's public behavior concerns me
because of his practice of drinking the blood of sickly goats. I'm
not a vegetarian or vegan or anything like that, but the use of an
animal in a stupid, risky, way that looks like little more than an
attempt to shock is not a positive image for occultists in general. I
realize that animal sacrifice is part of the traditional past of all
humans, but it seems to me that if someone felt a serious religious
need to follow this tradtion they would not be voice blogging about
it. But then I am a boring old lady...biggest excitement of an occult
nature in my life right now is a 'haunted' lock on the door of my new
condo.
Luv,
Kori
KoriHoughton
wrote:
> Hail Satan, Kori!
>
>
> <snip>
>
> so is it a competition for who will be called "The Black Pope"?
> news reports have positioned HP Peter Gilmore in that slot when
> doing stories on the CoS and their rites and holy days. is it
> something the Satanic Herd vies over?
>
> nocTifer
> --------------------------------------------
> satanservice.org@nocTifer
> --------------------------------------------
Yo, Bobo! Is that you, D00d?
nocTifer
satanservice.org@nocTifer (Bringer of Darkness):
>> so is it a competition for who will be called "The Black Pope"?
>> news reports have positioned HP Peter Gilmore in that slot when
>> doing stories on the CoS and their rites and holy days. is it
>> something the Satanic Herd vies over?
KoriHoughton <koriho...@gmail.com>:
>Yo, Bobo! Is that you, D00d?
the very! hey there, hi there, ho there!
my church abandoned me, so i let it dissolve
into its current defunct state and withdrew
my aegis around the 'bobo' mantle.
>I don't know Mr. Gilmore,
neither do i, but i do see his public expressions and have caught
a number of his media interviews, some of which are at Youtube!
I have made a neato Playlist there at:
http://www.youtube.com/user/nagasiva#grid/user/A1ED139CCBD3CD60
part of which ncludes HP Gilmore, whose expression i
generally can endorse and enjoy!
> and have never interacted with him in any way,
neither have i, only with his wife and the HPs of the church,
which in general i have enjoyed. she doesn't seem to like my
archival of the files intending to undermine contentions by
Anton LaVey about his extravagant biography.
> so I am not in a position to know his thoughts or
> intentions on this subject.
aha, well be advised then that he does allow or at least does
not protest against media interviewers dubbing him "The Black
Pope" in his interactions with them. you can see this in the
Youtube playlist i pointed out above. my aim is to cover and
understand the variety which is Satanity in all its forms,
from warty and ugly to beauteous and admirable.
> I can say that Blackwood has spent more words in public on the
> web (in writing and on his voice blog) about the COS than
> COS members have on Blackwood's Temples of Satan.
LOL well that's not surprising. the CoS is often the standard in
the Satanian world against which the rest of us are measured,
and a goodly number of Satanists have their eyes set on opposing
the CoS because it has become 'the new orthodoxy' as they see it.
> In my opinion (and that's all it is) I doubt that Gilmore
> or any COS higher ups want to recruit Blackwood's
> followers to their org.
?! indeed, i have never considered such a thing.
> I think there may be some competition for Black Poop among
> non-COS Satanists, and I don't mean the Theistics,
> like Diane Vera.
how interesting! I think this is remarkable due to the lengths
to which the CoS has gone to mimic the Roman Catholic Church.
it may be that they have also sought to eclipse the 'pope'
moniker. I know that the Discordians have done this.
> I refer to the 'flash of brimstone' groups that seem to start
> out with a butt load of talking heads with exalted titles,
> make some noise, and then vanish when the org rips itself
> apart over ego conflicts.
I completely understand. it is a kind of convention within
the Satanian and LHP community to be sure.
> Definitely I see Blackwood in that light; only Blackwood
> keeps coming back for more, sounding crazier all the time IMO.
oh i don't know. there are a scattering of them out there,
including Reverend Margolin in the Wikipedia project.
> I'm not a Satanist, but Blackwood's public behavior concerns me
> because of his practice of drinking the blood of sickly goats.
some associate with controversy to tweak others and all that you
can be sure is that they like to try to squick people with their
perverse rhetoric. did you actually SEE this practice?
> I'm not a vegetarian or vegan or anything like that, but the
> use of an animal in a stupid, risky, way that looks like
> little more than an attempt to shock is not a positive image
> for occultists in general.
hehehe, so when have Satanists sought to construct positive
images for themselves? I know LaVey did mix it up, what with
the 'No killing little children or animals' bit, but he wasn't
always Mr. Goodie-Goodie.
> I realize that animal sacrifice is part of the traditional
> past of all humans, but it seems to me that if someone felt
> a serious religious need to follow this tradtion they would
> not be voice blogging about it.
reasonable. there are lots of Satanists pushing for all kinds
of ridiculous things which are at points merely anti-Christian
and at points things whch Christians don't like about other
religions that Satanists want to expand their envelopes into.
I think we should be focussing on a narrow band (torture and
waste of food) and not focussing on what some religious do
and what others do not.
> But then I am a boring old lady...biggest excitement of an
> occult nature in my life right now is a 'haunted' lock on
> the door of my new condo.
spooky! what does it do? glow in the dark? :)
fondly,
satanservice.org@nocTifer (nocTifer)
nagasiva
Hail Satan, Kori!
>satanservice.org@nocTifer (Bringer of Darkness):
>>> so is it a competition for who will be called "The Black Pope"?
>>> news reports have positioned HP Peter Gilmore in that slot when
>>> doing stories on the CoS and their rites and holy days. is it
>>> something the Satanic Herd vies over?
KoriHoughton <koriho...@gmail.com>:
>>I don't know Mr. Gilmore,
satanservice.org@nocTifer (nocTifer):
>neither do i, but i do see his public expressions and have caught
>a number of his media interviews, some of which are at Youtube!
>> and have never interacted with him in any way,
>neither have i, only with his wife and the HPs of the church,
>which in general i have enjoyed. she doesn't seem to like my
>archival of the files intending to undermine contentions by
>Anton LaVey about his extravagant biography.
>> so I am not in a position to know his thoughts or
>> intentions on this subject.
>aha, well be advised then that he does allow or at least does
>not protest against media interviewers dubbing him "The Black
>Pope" in his interactions with them. you can see this in the
>Youtube playlist i pointed out above. my aim is to cover and
>understand the variety which is Satanity in all its forms,
>from warty and ugly to beauteous and admirable.
I was reminded that Anton LaVey also was called this.
in combination with the mimicry of the RCC's priestly
garb, it does seem that they wish to adopt this title.
therefore Blackwood is in competition with the CoS.
satanservice.org@nocTifer (nocTifer)
KoriHoughton
> Hail Satan, Kori!
>
> satanservice.org@nocTifer (Bringer of Darkness):
>
> >> so is it a competition for who will be called "The Black Pope"?
> >> news reports have positioned HP Peter Gilmore in that slot when
> >> doing stories on the CoS and their rites and holy days. is it
> >> something the Satanic Herd vies over?
>
>
> >Yo, Bobo! Is that you, D00d?
>
> the very! hey there, hi there, ho there!
> my church abandoned me, so i let it dissolve
> into its current defunct state and withdrew
> my aegis around the 'bobo' mantle.
>
> >I don't know Mr. Gilmore,
>
> neither do i, but i do see his public expressions and have caught
> a number of his media interviews, some of which are at Youtube!
> I have made a neato Playlist there at:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/user/nagasiva#grid/user/A1ED139CCBD3CD60
>
> part of which ncludes HP Gilmore, whose expression i
> generally can endorse and enjoy!
This is a bunch of slugs doing their bodily functions or something?
>
> > and have never interacted with him in any way,
>
> neither have i, only with his wife and the HPs of the church,
> which in general i have enjoyed. she doesn't seem to like my
> archival of the files intending to undermine contentions by
> Anton LaVey about his extravagant biography.
Maybe the contentions stand on their own merit, as part of the history
of how it all started back in the day. There must be some reason why
so many occultists have also been spooks...because they are comfy with
the 'facts' about their personal lives, their actions and their
motivations being mostly legendary.
>
> > so I am not in a position to know his thoughts or
> > intentions on this subject.
>
> aha, well be advised then that he does allow or at least does
> not protest against media interviewers dubbing him "The Black
> Pope" in his interactions with them. you can see this in the
> Youtube playlist i pointed out above. my aim is to cover and
> understand the variety which is Satanity in all its forms,
> from warty and ugly to beauteous and admirable.
That's a great concept to aim for, but what about the slugs LOL?
>
> > I can say that Blackwood has spent more words in public on the
> > web (in writing and on his voice blog) about the COS than
> > COS members have on Blackwood's Temples of Satan.
>
> LOL well that's not surprising. the CoS is often the standard in
> the Satanian world against which the rest of us are measured,
> and a goodly number of Satanists have their eyes set on opposing
> the CoS because it has become 'the new orthodoxy' as they see it.
I am not sure that the COS would stand as 'orthodoxy' for Blackwood's
Temples of Satan. Blackwood's org is theistic Satanism, but the COS
is not. Recently former Temple of Set High Priest Don Webb has stated
in his blog at http://edred.net/community/
that his Temple is also theistic satanism -- after the TOS spent the
last decade or so stating their group was not satanic:
------------------------------------------------
Some Thoughts on Satanism
Don Webb, posted 07/22/09 03:37:52 » Magical Writings 0
I am a member and the former High Priest of the Temple of
Set, a theistic Satanic religion. We are part of a magical and
philosophical tradition of spiritual dissent, which despite crude
images form movies and low grade rock-n-roll has nothing to do with
“evil,” cruelty or tattooing numbers on one’s forehead. I would like
to tell you about our practice, my choice to be a member and our
relationship to mainstream Christianity.
The Logos, or ruling concept of Christianity is Greek noun Agape,
Love. The Setian Logos is the Egyptian verb Xeper (pronounced
Kheffer), Become. I would describe the law of Xepera Xeper Xeperu as
a process that affects both things inside and outside of the self.
This phrase from the Bremmer-Rhind Papyrus can be translated as "I
came into being and by coming into being the way of coming into being
is established." Now this has four important meanings:
1. No god or human made me. They have made things that I have used
from good brains to diabetes, but I supplied the spark, out of seeking
self-knowledge.
2.The coming into being of all other things I understand through my
own process -- I am limited to the lens of myself. I try hard to make
that a good lens, but I view things in motion by what I went though.
For good and bad, I am the judge of meaning and value in the
Universe.
3. All things that I successfully start in the objective universe
bear my pattern -- which can be both good and bad.
4. I must choose my actions to further my self-creation. As
Aristotle said, “"Men acquire a particular quality by constantly
acting a particular way...you become just by performing just actions,
temperate by performing temperate actions, brave by performing brave
actions."
Now there are certain important ideas beyond these. We are not
solipsists; we knowt hat the objective universe is not our creation.
We believe that the “stuff” that our psyche is formed of is not a
substance that is regulated or constrained by the mechanical laws of
the objective universe, but that it represents the Will of the
archetype of the rebel against cosmic injustice, the Prince of
Darkness, whom we call Set, but for most Christians would be called
Satan. We are on the side of the knowledge-giving serpent in the
Garden of Eden myth. If our souls are made of something in essence
different than the clockwork universe, we should be able to
demonstrate this by internal creativity – art, philosophy, even
fantasy of things not to be seen or heard: and we should be able to
cause changes in the objective universe by will alone. In short the
ability to work magic is not only a philosophical notion of Satanism,
but also a requirement for membership in most organized groups.
Ability to pass to the second grade of the Temple of Set requires
proof of magical efficacy, for example.
But what of the Prince of Darkness? Isn’t this just trading the idea
of an all powerful creator god for just a guy in red tights? We don’t
see Set as a god requiring worship or obedience. Gods are human
creations, projections of parts of the psyches. It doesn’t matter if
the projection is Daddy (YHWH), Mom (Wiccan Goddesses) or Brother
(Jesus). A being that needed our adulation would be a little too
insecure. Set like us chooses not to be one with the universe, but
accepts the pains and pleasures of existence and pursues Its own
power, pleasure and knowledge. Its Gift to us enriches the
possibilities of Its perception. Free beings with a mix of carnal
desires and philosophical inclinations will create an interesting
world by ever-shifting mixes of conflict and co-operation, dreaming
and going. We do not sacrifice to Set, because that would widen the
gap between the human and divine realms, instead we do as It does – we
provide knowledge and choice to those that seek them.
In 1987 Geraldo Rivera had a sensational Halloween special wherein he
introduced the myth of Satanic Ritual Abuse. I had been working on an
essay about the Salem Witch Trials. As I watched Mr. Rivera bring
forth his “experts” with flimsier evidence than UFO cultists, I was
sadden by the lack of critical thinking in America after three years.
One gentleman, Dr. Michael Aquino said what most reasonable people
were thinking, “If you know about these heinous crimes, why are you
not making arrests?” Quickly they cut to a commercial as the cold
water of reason threatened the fires of TV demagoguery. I found out
that Aquino was an ex-Green Beret PSYOP (psychological warfare
officer) that had founded the Temple of Set, Inc. in 1975, and I found
out that one of my best friends Dr. Stephen E. Flowers, a gifted
linguist, not only knew him, but was on the not-for-prof’s board. I
decided to research the modern Satanic movement from its origin with
Howard Levey (aka Anton S. LaVey) who crafted a mix of Ayn Rand,
monster movie aesthetics and practical occultism into the Church of
Satan through Michael Aquino’s neo-Platonic Temple of Set. I
researched the FBI’s report on the non-existence of Satanic Ritual
Abuse and finally I wrote Aquino himself – to tell him why I would not
join a group but admired his stand against TV superstition. He wrote
back telling me in essence that he didn’t know why groups worked, but
the Temple had a lot of fun trying. Seven years later I was the High
Priest and had written my first two books on spiritual dissent, The
Seven Faces of Darkness and Uncle Setnakt’s Essential Guide to the
Left Hand Path. Now while some of you are hastening to Amazon to get
these excellent Yule gifts, I’ll talk about our relationship with
mainstream Christianity.
Teenagers revolt against their parents. In the Judeo-Christian world
this often means a period of inversion of the symbols of faith – this
can manifest itself as spray painted inverse crosses, black
fingernails and unsavory shock-rock. Many Christians make the logical
but incorrect assumption that this juvenile rebellion is a sign or
gateway to out practice. This fuels hysteria that some “experts” are
more than willing to cash in on. These flash points of profitable
hatred have lead to harassment of our homes, loss of jobs and strains
in families. Fortunately however a growing number of Christians
understand that we are not after them or their lifestyle, and often
deplore some of the same stupidity, hatred, hyper-sexuality of the
society of the spectacle that they do. The notion of a satanic
conspiracy doesn’t hold up well when we drive average cars, worry
about making an honest buck and **** and moan about taxes just like
all other Americans. Christians may find philosophically repellent –
after all we have a very different view of the nature and purpose of
life – but for the most part don’t want to burn us alive atop our
books.
Our view of Christianity varies with the individual. For the most
part we realize that humans are not able to keep ethical choices with
the fear of hell fire, and so we are glad of the “sacred lies” that
keep people in line. We are just as human as you and we understand
the idea of a loving God or Goddess could well be a comfort, and in a
universe of hazard and uncertainty it would not be kind of us to ruin
another’s comfort. As long as Christians are not spurred to attack
us, we have no quarrel with them. We don’t seek to recruit. The
psyche chooses her own companions – we could not be advocates of free
will if we manipulate minds to think like we do. Thus we will always
be a minority religion. Our spiritual dissent is not a dismissal of
Christianity, because Christianity does not rule the popular world. We
dissent from the “true gods” of the age -- namely that “money is the
form of worth”, “false equality” “advertising should determine your
sex life” and “irresponsibility and stupidity are cool.”
I do not see the desirability or the need of any formal relationship
between theistic Satanism and Christianity. Theistic Satanists
struggle against the grain of the world promoting personal freedom,
access to knowledge, increase of human potential and an increasing
belief in personal responsibility. Many Christians would promote
these values. But our motives are different. Christians seek these
things for the love of mankind, but are benefited thereby. Theistic
Satanists seek these things for themselves, but the world is benefited
thereby. Our disbelief in the myth of altruism and our belief that
Love is precious and can only be truly given to the few separates us
from the Christian. The Christian’s belief in a god that needs
obedience and worship separates the Christian from us. Let us neither
despise one another, nor be fooled into thinking there is common
ground beyond the need to live together on this spinning blue ball.
From Charles Baudelaire .Les litanies de Satan
Glory and praise to you, O Satan, in the heights
Of Heaven where you reigned and in the depths
Of Hell where vanquished you dream in silence!
Grant that my soul may someday repose near to you
Under the Tree of Knowledge, when, over your brow,
Its branches will spread like a new Temple!
(Translated in English by William Aggeler – Fresno, CA: Academy
Library Guild, 1954)
------------END COPY AND PASTE-------
I pasted this in here because the blog site has been rearranged
recently, and this post can be tricky to find now. Webb mentions that
he, and the Temple, are Satanists more than once AND a lot of his
contrasts between Satanism and Christianity pretty much lump the
beliefs and aims of Blackwood's group in with the Christians. I am
wondering if this latest Temple of Set image shift is rooted partly in
the sad circumstance that they share an abbreviation (TOS) with
Blackwood's group?
>
> > In my opinion (and that's all it is) I doubt that Gilmore
> > or any COS higher ups want to recruit Blackwood's
> > followers to their org.
>
> ?! indeed, i have never considered such a thing.
But of course! And probably the COS does their very best to maximize
all distance. I would.
>
> > I think there may be some competition for Black Poop among
> > non-COS Satanists, and I don't mean the Theistics,
> > like Diane Vera.
>
> how interesting! I think this is remarkable due to the lengths
> to which the CoS has gone to mimic the Roman Catholic Church.
> it may be that they have also sought to eclipse the 'pope'
> moniker. I know that the Discordians have done this.
I wrote my comment above before reading Webb's blog entry, and now I
have something to give an identity to my hunch. As it turned out, the
Black Pope/Poop competition really doesn't signify. Too bad, 'cause
it's so funny!
>
> > I refer to the 'flash of brimstone' groups that seem to start
> > out with a butt load of talking heads with exalted titles,
> > make some noise, and then vanish when the org rips itself
> > apart over ego conflicts.
>
> I completely understand. it is a kind of convention within
> the Satanian and LHP community to be sure.
And the RHP as well!
>
> > Definitely I see Blackwood in that light; only Blackwood
> > keeps coming back for more, sounding crazier all the time IMO.
>
> oh i don't know. there are a scattering of them out there,
> including Reverend Margolin in the Wikipedia project.
I recognize the name Margolin, but nothing about this person's views
or behavior has stuck with me...
>
> > I'm not a Satanist, but Blackwood's public behavior concerns me
> > because of his practice of drinking the blood of sickly goats.
>
> some associate with controversy to tweak others and all that you
> can be sure is that they like to try to squick people with their
> perverse rhetoric. did you actually SEE this practice?
No! I'd be happy to discover it's all a pose for shock, but I don't
think so. Blackwood's voice blog here:
http://www.snapvine.com/bp/HLXvcHsOEd6xPgAwSFxw7A
There are hundreds of these voice entries without any titles, so
finding the one where he boasts about killing only sickly goats would
be quite a project to find. Should have made a note of the date, but
didn't.
>
> > I'm not a vegetarian or vegan or anything like that, but the
> > use of an animal in a stupid, risky, way that looks like
> > little more than an attempt to shock is not a positive image
> > for occultists in general.
>
> hehehe, so when have Satanists sought to construct positive
> images for themselves? I know LaVey did mix it up, what with
> the 'No killing little children or animals' bit, but he wasn't
> always Mr. Goodie-Goodie.
I am not demanding goodie-goodieness from anyone. I think it's
stoopid to drink the blood of a sick animal. And if you didn't do
such a stoopid thing, I consider it irresponsible for a purported
leader of Satanism (ie, Blackwood) to mislead people about the his
method of 'sacrifice' or whatever.
>
> > I realize that animal sacrifice is part of the traditional
> > past of all humans, but it seems to me that if someone felt
> > a serious religious need to follow this tradtion they would
> > not be voice blogging about it.
>
> reasonable. there are lots of Satanists pushing for all kinds
> of ridiculous things which are at points merely anti-Christian
> and at points things whch Christians don't like about other
> religions that Satanists want to expand their envelopes into.
> I think we should be focussing on a narrow band (torture and
> waste of food) and not focussing on what some religious do
> and what others do not.
Agreed! Our pre-monotheistic ancestors respected Life, mostly took
what they needed for their nourishment (physical and spiritual). Not
perfectly benign or Goodie-Goodie, but not show business horror,
either.
>
> > But then I am a boring old lady...biggest excitement of an
> > occult nature in my life right now is a 'haunted' lock on
> > the door of my new condo.
>
> spooky! what does it do? glow in the dark? :)
No, it won't open for some people. The woman I bought it from had the
lock sets changed after she moved in because she was tired of fighting
the lock. Worked fine for a few months she said, but then the same
problem started up again. The dudes who put the new flooring in for
me couldn't get in, but the painter dude had no problem. I never had
an issue with getting in, but apparently the real estate agents did.
It's a geothermal subdivision, so I wonder if all the undergroud water
pipes have something to do with it? Not my spooky field of expertise.
Luv,
Kori
>
> fondly,
>
> satanservice.org@nocTifer (nocTifer)
nocTifer
you say that you're not a Satanist, but you're still posting
in alt.satanism. what's the deal? you a Setian? I recall you
had a break from the ToS or something. are you an interested
researcher on some or all of this for some reason? do tell.
>>>> so is it a competition for who will be called "The Black Pope"?
>>>> news reports have positioned HP Peter Gilmore in that slot when
>>>> doing stories on the CoS and their rites and holy days. is it
>>>> something the Satanic Herd vies over?
>> i do see his public expressions and have caught
>> a number of his media interviews, some of which are at Youtube!
>> I have made a neato Playlist there at:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/user/nagasiva#grid/user/A1ED139CCBD
>> part of which ncludes HP Gilmore, whose expression i
>> generally can endorse and enjoy!
KoriHoughton <koriho...@gmail.com>:
> This is a bunch of slugs doing their bodily functions or something?
the headline is 2 slugs mating. there's a Satanist Playlist
that incorporates LaVey and Gilmore and more. I identify
Satan as 'wild nature', and so slugsex is right in there.
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=A1ED139CCBD3CD60
> Maybe the contentions stand on their own merit, as part of
> the history of how it all started back in the day.
from a religious perspective. as someone who has studied religion,
i'm sure that you know that there's interpreter and political
bias that intrudes where it may be distinguished and separated
out by sociologists of religion doing an analysis. it's quite
interesting to know that Joseph Smith was an alcoholic who was
totally into Jupiter Square talismans. LaVey does not seem to
be the most reliable source on the origins of Satanism. did you
notice that there are few other names given by people who were
involved in the founding of the Church of Satan? yet i know
that there were co-founders, one of whom was DHegarty. I'd
like to identify all of those others, but am not sure where
this information is to be had. WHEN it actually occurred is
yet another databit that is sometimes covered over by legend.
> There must be some reason why
> so many occultists have also been spooks...because they are comfy with
> the 'facts' about their personal lives, their actions and their
> motivations being mostly legendary.
interesting idea. there's a mystique about that 'occult'
character also. how many, precisely, of these occultists
have actually been such 'spooks'. the only ones that i
can think of offhand are Aquino and Dee? others?
> That's a great concept to aim for,
Black Pope? why? isn't it totally Catholic-oriented?
are there notions of what the Black Pope is? has this,
too, been mapped by Christians in their diatribes?
> but what about the slugs LOL?
slugs and snails are my power animals, my totems.
I found this out when i was smitten with the New
Age community and helped to turn them earthward
and non-dualist. eventually i left them as not
being dirty or demonic enough for my compassion
and breadth of interest. within a decade after
that departer i was with witches and sorcerers
and self-initiating as an eco-Satanist.
>> LOL well that's not surprising. the CoS is often the standard in
>> the Satanian world against which the rest of us are measured,
>> and a goodly number of Satanists have their eyes set on opposing
>> the CoS because it has become 'the new orthodoxy' as they see it.
>
> I am not sure that the COS would stand as 'orthodoxy' for
> Blackwood's Temples of Satan.
I don't know how it can be avoided. it's like the Roman Catholics
and their orthodoxy to the Protestants. I suppose that this is
WHY the various other Catholics chose the title 'Orthodox', so
as to set themselves up as the overt competition of this type.
their compatriots had already tried to circumscribe 'universal'.
> Blackwood's org is theistic Satanism, but the COS is not.
absolutely. CoS is atheist, they try to maintain. I don't think
that they screen for specific belief litmus, so i doubt that
they say more than what is their official doctrine set, which
isn't required of membership to my knowledge. have you become
aware of the turnover in CoS with expulsions? I am occasonially
told of such things by those who are former members but i have
no data to back it up. maybe they are enforcing their atheism?
> Recently former Temple of Set High Priest Don Webb has
> stated in his blog at http://edred.net/community/
> that his Temple is also theistic satanism ...
that is amusing!! thanks, one for the files! ;)
I can see that they were theistic -- that's obvious. but
that they are (now?) Satanists is extremely funny. I've
always known that a portion of them identified as such.
to a certain extent the Temple of Set has always attracted
some portion of Satanists trying to be more than
anti-Christian atheists, a kind of hermetic strain.
> -- after the TOS spent the last decade or so stating
> their group was not satanic:
I remember Aquino doing that, he is a Setian. the old
switcheroo was only somewhat convincing, however. the
Church of Azazel, the Yezidi freaks and the alien god
Joy of Satan nazis all do something similar. some of
them acknowledge/claim they are Satanists, some of
them say that they are 'not really'. it varies and
likely depends upon how they define the term.
> I pasted this in here because the blog site has been rearranged
> recently, and this post can be tricky to find now. Webb mentions that
> he, and the Temple, are Satanists more than once AND a lot of his
> contrasts between Satanism and Christianity pretty much lump the
> beliefs and aims of Blackwood's group in with the Christians. I am
> wondering if this latest Temple of Set image shift is rooted partly in
> the sad circumstance that they share an abbreviation (TOS) with
> Blackwood's group?
VERY interesting, thanks Kori. I'll provide data on it as i
can dig it up for you. Webb's history extends back in time
into Texas, where he was doing a bit of 'selection' for the
Setian crew early on in his career through the Neopagan
(and Thelemic?) circuit. I've some contacts in Texas who
remember him fairly well by that name (and sometimes by
'Uncle Setnakt', as i first encountered him).
>>> In my opinion (and that's all it is) I doubt that Gilmore
>>> or any COS higher ups want to recruit Blackwood's
>>> followers to their org.
>>
>> ?! indeed, i have never considered such a thing.
>
> But of course! And probably the COS does their very
> best to maximize all distance. I would.
too many chefs. so what about the Temple of the Vampire?
doesn't that destroy the 'rationalist atheist' image?
I gather that they are run by one of the C9 and that
there is heavy crossover, including Ventrue/Diabolus.
is any of this true? I have only been hearing claims
by people who said that they were close to the action.
>>> I think there may be some competition for Black Poop among
>>> non-COS Satanists, and I don't mean the Theistics,
>>> like Diane Vera.
>>
>> how interesting! I think this is remarkable due to the lengths
>> to which the CoS has gone to mimic the Roman Catholic Church.
>> it may be that they have also sought to eclipse the 'pope'
>> moniker. I know that the Discordians have done this.
>
> I wrote my comment above before reading Webb's blog entry,
> and now I have something to give an identity to my hunch.
> As it turned out, the Black Pope/Poop competition really
> doesn't signify. Too bad, 'cause it's so funny!
>
>>> I refer to the 'flash of brimstone' groups that seem to start
>>> out with a butt load of talking heads with exalted titles,
>>> make some noise, and then vanish when the org rips itself
>>> apart over ego conflicts.
>>
>> I completely understand. it is a kind of convention within
>> the Satanian and LHP community to be sure.
>And the RHP as well!
particularly in the Protestant reformation. I don't know
about beyond this within Christiansville (are there stray
small Catholic sects like the Gibson extremists that come
and go in whiffs of time? Greek or Russian heterodoxies??).
>>> Definitely I see Blackwood in that light; only Blackwood
>>> keeps coming back for more, sounding crazier all the time IMO.
>>
>> oh i don't know. there are a scattering of them out there,
>> including Reverend Margolin in the Wikipedia project.
>
> I recognize the name Margolin, but nothing about this
> person's views or behavior has stuck with me...
he is attempting to place his cult and person on the map
by infiltration to the Wikipedia project, but he is failing
on account of his lack of secondary information and so his
net effect is delay, disturbance, and disinformation. I'm
occasionally sticking my head in and trying to make sense
of it and lay some groundwork. unfortunately he is, like
many religious, not an intellectual/writer and so sows
more confusion/disgust than he generates interest.
>>> I'm not a Satanist, but Blackwood's public behavior concerns me
>>> because of his practice of drinking the blood of sickly goats.
>>
>> some associate with controversy to tweak others and all that you
>> can be sure is that they like to try to squick people with their
>> perverse rhetoric. did you actually SEE this practice?
>
> No! I'd be happy to discover it's all a pose for shock....
there's a trend that started, to my knowledge, with the ONA,
transverse to the CoS and LaVey and its law-abidingness. they
explain how they "really do" kill people, not just with symbols,
and they identify this as sacrifice, or 'culling', etc. proto-
Satanists like Crowley did the same thing (he did in his 'Magick
in Theory and Practice', Part Three of Liber ABA, Book Four,
"Magick"; he talked about 'sacrificing children' as a metaphor
for masturbation).
>...Blackwood's voice blog here:
>http://www.snapvine.com/bp/HLXvcHsOEd6xPgAwSFxw7A
I'll give it a listen soon. lately i've been analyzing and
transcribing the CoS Video Interview disc.
> There are hundreds of these voice entries without any titles,
> so finding the one where he boasts about killing only sickly
> goats would be quite a project to find. Should have made a
> note of the date, but didn't.
better than killing only vibrant strong goats? sounds like a
wolf/vampire motif.
>>> I'm not a vegetarian or vegan or anything like that, but the
>>> use of an animal in a stupid, risky, way that looks like
>>> little more than an attempt to shock is not a positive image
>>> for occultists in general.
>>
>> hehehe, so when have Satanists sought to construct positive
>> images for themselves? I know LaVey did mix it up, what with
>> the 'No killing little children or animals' bit, but he wasn't
>> always Mr. Goodie-Goodie.
> I am not demanding goodie-goodieness from anyone. I think it's
> stoopid to drink the blood of a sick animal.
dang, there's a bit of a history amongst the de factos and the
Satanic Christians. Crowley's Italian cult drank the blood of
a cat that apparently had distemper. Ozzy drank the blood of
a bat (and had to get rabies shots? not sure that's true).
> And if you didn't do such a stoopid thing, I consider it
> irresponsible for a purported leader of Satanism
> (ie, Blackwood) to mislead people about the his
> method of 'sacrifice' or whatever.
like i said, the ONA did that for years and to my knowledge
that was all just writings from Anton Long and friends. more
recently this was 'revived' and there's a host of Satanians
who are hot on the notion of 'humane animal sacrifice' which
sometimes includes drinking blood (ToV!) of the victims.
>>> I realize that animal sacrifice is part of the traditional
>>> past of all humans, but it seems to me that if someone felt
>>> a serious religious need to follow this tradtion they would
>>> not be voice blogging about it. =A0
>>
>> reasonable. there are lots of Satanists pushing for all kinds
>> of ridiculous things which are at points merely anti-Christian
>> and at points things whch Christians don't like about other
>> religions that Satanists want to expand their envelopes into.
>> I think we should be focussing on a narrow band (torture and
>> waste of food) and not focussing on what some religious do
>> and what others do not.
>
> Agreed! Our pre-monotheistic ancestors respected Life,
> mostly took what they needed for their nourishment
> (physical and spiritual). Not perfectly benign or
> Goodie-Goodie, but not show business horror, either.
agreed. they didn't always have the greenest practices or
outlook, but more often than not they seem to have had an
abiding respect for the animal in question.
>>> But then I am a boring old lady...biggest excitement of an
>>> occult nature in my life right now is a 'haunted' lock on
>>> the door of my new condo.
>>
>> spooky! what does it do? glow in the dark? :)
>
> No, it won't open for some people. The woman I bought
> it from had the lock sets changed after she moved in
> because she was tired of fighting the lock. Worked
> fine for a few months she said, but then the same
> problem started up again. The dudes who put the new
> flooring in for me couldn't get in, but the painter
> dude had no problem. I never had an issue with
> getting in, but apparently the real estate agents did.
> It's a geothermal subdivision, so I wonder if all the
> undergroud water pipes have something to do with it?
> Not my spooky field of expertise.
fun! could be temperature/humidity-related. I tend to
do Ghostbuster analysis until the thing is explained
away, but refrain for those who like spooky stories.
nocTifer
satanservice.org@nocTifer
--
yronwode.org@nagasiva - Gospel of Satan! http://www.gospel-of-satan.com
Dumbledore: "Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why
on earth should that mean that it is not real?" - J.K. Rowling.
KoriHoughton
> hi Kori,
>
> you say that you're not a Satanist, but you're still posting
> in alt.satanism. what's the deal? you a Setian? I recall you
> had a break from the ToS or something. are you an interested
> researcher on some or all of this for some reason? do tell.
Hi, nocTifer! I luv alt.satanism for 2 reasons: there are some very
intelligent and witty people here and I am interested in many things
occult. I've never been a Setian. I am a renegade Thelemite. I got
interested in the TOS because of some information my magickal mentor
left me just before he died. Since I couldn't ask him about the
message -- it was in his usual cryptic style LOL -- I figured I'd just
have to learn what I could and then see what it all means...or
something like that. And what a long strange trip it's been!
>
> >>>> so is it a competition for who will be called "The Black Pope"?
> >>>> news reports have positioned HP Peter Gilmore in that slot when
> >>>> doing stories on the CoS and their rites and holy days. is it
> >>>> something the Satanic Herd vies over?
> >> i do see his public expressions and have caught
> >> a number of his media interviews, some of which are at Youtube!
> >> I have made a neato Playlist there at:
>
> >>http://www.youtube.com/user/nagasiva#grid/user/A1ED139CCBD
> >> part of which ncludes HP Gilmore, whose expression i
> >> generally can endorse and enjoy!
>
> KoriHoughton <korihough...@gmail.com>:
>
> > This is a bunch of slugs doing their bodily functions or something?
>
> the headline is 2 slugs mating. there's a Satanist Playlist
> that incorporates LaVey and Gilmore and more. I identify
> Satan as 'wild nature', and so slugsex is right in there.
Okay, dude, I'll have to check out that link again. You are cracking
me up here!
>
> http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=A1ED139CCBD3CD60
>
> > Maybe the contentions stand on their own merit, as part of
> > the history of how it all started back in the day.
>
> from a religious perspective. as someone who has studied religion,
> i'm sure that you know that there's interpreter and political
> bias that intrudes where it may be distinguished and separated
> out by sociologists of religion doing an analysis. it's quite
> interesting to know that Joseph Smith was an alcoholic who was
> totally into Jupiter Square talismans. LaVey does not seem to
> be the most reliable source on the origins of Satanism. did you
> notice that there are few other names given by people who were
> involved in the founding of the Church of Satan? yet i know
> that there were co-founders, one of whom was DHegarty. I'd
> like to identify all of those others, but am not sure where
> this information is to be had. WHEN it actually occurred is
> yet another databit that is sometimes covered over by legend.
In the case of the COS founders, I think the reality would be far more
interesting than any legend. These were some very smart and creative
people. They were in school before 'new math' came into vogue, so they
knew how to think and express themselves -- my late husband's
generation.
>
> > There must be some reason why
> > so many occultists have also been spooks...because they are comfy with
> > the 'facts' about their personal lives, their actions and their
> > motivations being mostly legendary.
>
> interesting idea. there's a mystique about that 'occult'
> character also. how many, precisely, of these occultists
> have actually been such 'spooks'. the only ones that i
> can think of offhand are Aquino and Dee? others?
Crowley, McMurtry, a whole bunch of European dudes who were in the pre-
Crowley OTO and the FS, Gurdjieff, and a whole bunch of early 20th
Century racialists (aka Nazis). Ever read books by James Webb?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Webb_(historian)
>
> > That's a great concept to aim for,
>
> Black Pope? why? isn't it totally Catholic-oriented?
> are there notions of what the Black Pope is? has this,
> too, been mapped by Christians in their diatribes?
It's funny. Funny in the way that the COS is called a 'church' but is
the opposite. A COS style Black Pope would not be a pope. At least
the way I see it. Anyone who bashes LaVey or a current COS honcho for
stylin' as the Black Pope, and therefore claiming the authority of the
RC pope, just doesn't get it, I think. Neither do the blockheads from
other orgs who want to compete for the title of Black Pope as a means
of invalidating LaVey and the COS. Satanism just IS, and doesn't need
no stinkin' guy in a dress (white or black) pretending to be
infailible.
>
> > but what about the slugs LOL?
>
> slugs and snails are my power animals, my totems.
> I found this out when i was smitten with the New
> Age community and helped to turn them earthward
> and non-dualist. eventually i left them as not
> being dirty or demonic enough for my compassion
> and breadth of interest. within a decade after
> that departer i was with witches and sorcerers
> and self-initiating as an eco-Satanist.
There is a kind of power in the absence of rigidity.
>
> >> LOL well that's not surprising. the CoS is often the standard in
> >> the Satanian world against which the rest of us are measured,
> >> and a goodly number of Satanists have their eyes set on opposing
> >> the CoS because it has become 'the new orthodoxy' as they see it.
>
> > I am not sure that the COS would stand as 'orthodoxy' for
> > Blackwood's Temples of Satan.
>
> I don't know how it can be avoided. it's like the Roman Catholics
> and their orthodoxy to the Protestants. I suppose that this is
> WHY the various other Catholics chose the title 'Orthodox', so
> as to set themselves up as the overt competition of this type.
> their compatriots had already tried to circumscribe 'universal'.
The Orthodox or Eastern Catholics rejected the concept that the Roman
Church was catholic = universal when they diverged over dogma. The
Eastern Church accepted only the concepts of the earliest Councils, so
for them 'orthodoxy' was holding to an older way than the Roman
Church. By analogy, then, Blackwood is 'orthodox'. At this time, his
voice blogs are rants about his Temples of Satan having the oldest
roots of any Satanist organization and he rejects all contemporary
Satanisms, especially the COS.
>
> > Blackwood's org is theistic Satanism, but the COS is not.
>
> absolutely. CoS is atheist, they try to maintain. I don't think
> that they screen for specific belief litmus, so i doubt that
> they say more than what is their official doctrine set, which
> isn't required of membership to my knowledge. have you become
> aware of the turnover in CoS with expulsions? I am occasonially
> told of such things by those who are former members but i have
> no data to back it up. maybe they are enforcing their atheism?
I live in a very bland and conservative part of the country. Even New
Age bookstores that focus on angel magic and other white light +
bunnies stuff aren't welcome in many neighborhoods. So news out here
about the doings of occult orgs is sparse to nonexistent.
>
> > Recently former Temple of Set High Priest Don Webb has
> > stated in his blog athttp://edred.net/community/
> > that his Temple is also theistic satanism ...
>
> that is amusing!! thanks, one for the files! ;)
>
> I can see that they were theistic -- that's obvious. but
> that they are (now?) Satanists is extremely funny. I've
> always known that a portion of them identified as such.
> to a certain extent the Temple of Set has always attracted
> some portion of Satanists trying to be more than
> anti-Christian atheists, a kind of hermetic strain.
The TOS goes in cycles. When they appeared in the 1970s, they were an
apocalyptic new agey cult with strong survivalist overtones (for
realz). At some point before I discovered them, there was the 'COS
does not exist' campaign because LaVey had rejected the infernal
bandaid (ie, mandate) yadda yadda yadda. Parallel to this, Aquino had
been sending out feelers to several magical/thelemic/LHP working
groups and known individuals announcing himself as 'the second beast'
and offering them the opportunity to be assimilated. At some point
during the 90s (I believe during Don Webb's HP term) gradually the
existence of the COS was acknowldged, and the TOS distanced itself
from identifying with Satanism other than as a subject for study AND a
founding influence on the early TOS. There were other facades
errected, used for a while and then dropped. And so the wheel turns.
Could be natural growth, could be something else. I haven't a clue...
>
> > -- after the TOS spent the last decade or so stating
> > their group was not satanic:
>
> I remember Aquino doing that, he is a Setian. the old
> switcheroo was only somewhat convincing, however. the
> Church of Azazel, the Yezidi freaks and the alien god
> Joy of Satan nazis all do something similar. some of
> them acknowledge/claim they are Satanists, some of
> them say that they are 'not really'. it varies and
> likely depends upon how they define the term.
Maybe some believe the current political climate is more favorable to
open Satanism.
>
> > I pasted this in here because the blog site has been rearranged
> > recently, and this post can be tricky to find now. Webb mentions that
> > he, and the Temple, are Satanists more than once AND a lot of his
> > contrasts between Satanism and Christianity pretty much lump the
> > beliefs and aims of Blackwood's group in with the Christians. I am
> > wondering if this latest Temple of Set image shift is rooted partly in
> > the sad circumstance that they share an abbreviation (TOS) with
> > Blackwood's group?
>
> VERY interesting, thanks Kori. I'll provide data on it as i
> can dig it up for you. Webb's history extends back in time
> into Texas, where he was doing a bit of 'selection' for the
> Setian crew early on in his career through the Neopagan
> (and Thelemic?) circuit. I've some contacts in Texas who
> remember him fairly well by that name (and sometimes by
> 'Uncle Setnakt', as i first encountered him).
Wasn't Webb a drugged-out gamer geek who got into the occult to extend
a fantasy life into the consensus reality? There are thousands of
people in my generation that fit that profile. Which, of course, I do
not. I've never been into the drugs thing, never been a gamer of any
type, or viewed occultism as separate from the consensus realty. Quite
the contrary.
>
> >>> In my opinion (and that's all it is) I doubt that Gilmore
> >>> or any COS higher ups want to recruit Blackwood's
> >>> followers to their org.
>
> >> ?! indeed, i have never considered such a thing.
>
> > But of course! And probably the COS does their very
> > best to maximize all distance. I would.
>
> too many chefs. so what about the Temple of the Vampire?
> doesn't that destroy the 'rationalist atheist' image?
> I gather that they are run by one of the C9 and that
> there is heavy crossover, including Ventrue/Diabolus.
> is any of this true? I have only been hearing claims
> by people who said that they were close to the action.
I find any kind of fanpire stuff really boring. I will say that, like
the COS proper, any TOV behavior I've observed has been polite and
live-and-let-live. Also, I think one can identify as a 'rationalist
atheist' and still acknowledge that there are emotional experiences
outside of that framework and want to learn about them, experiment
with them.
>
>
>
>
>
> >>> I think there may be some competition for Black Poop among
> >>> non-COS Satanists, and I don't mean the Theistics,
> >>> like Diane Vera.
>
> >> how interesting! I think this is remarkable due to the lengths
> >> to which the CoS has gone to mimic the Roman Catholic Church.
> >> it may be that they have also sought to eclipse the 'pope'
> >> moniker. I know that the Discordians have done this.
>
> > I wrote my comment above before reading Webb's blog entry,
> > and now I have something to give an identity to my hunch.
> > As it turned out, the Black Pope/Poop competition really
> > doesn't signify. Too bad, 'cause it's so funny!
>
> >>> I refer to the 'flash of brimstone' groups that seem to start
> >>> out with a butt load of talking heads with exalted titles,
> >>> make some noise, and then vanish when the org rips itself
> >>> apart over ego conflicts.
>
> >> I completely understand. it is a kind of convention within
> >> the Satanian and LHP community to be sure.
> >And the RHP as well!
>
> particularly in the Protestant reformation. I don't know
> about beyond this within Christiansville (are there stray
> small Catholic sects like the Gibson extremists that come
> and go in whiffs of time? Greek or Russian heterodoxies??).
There's Opus Dei, which is not that old, and a few other small
extremist factions. Again, a combination of political intriguing,
occult-style beliefs, and bizzare physical practices. There is
actually a lot of pretty scary stuff that goes on below the surface of
the Catholic Church.
> >>> Definitely I see Blackwood in that light; only Blackwood
> >>> keeps coming back for more, sounding crazier all the time IMO.
>
> >> oh i don't know. there are a scattering of them out there,
> >> including Reverend Margolin in the Wikipedia project.
>
> > I recognize the name Margolin, but nothing about this
> > person's views or behavior has stuck with me...
>
> he is attempting to place his cult and person on the map
> by infiltration to the Wikipedia project, but he is failing
> on account of his lack of secondary information and so his
> net effect is delay, disturbance, and disinformation. I'm
> occasionally sticking my head in and trying to make sense
> of it and lay some groundwork. unfortunately he is, like
> many religious, not an intellectual/writer and so sows
> more confusion/disgust than he generates interest.
Wiki isn't always a reliable source; his behavior isn't unusual.
>
> >>> I'm not a Satanist, but Blackwood's public behavior concerns me
> >>> because of his practice of drinking the blood of sickly goats.
>
> >> some associate with controversy to tweak others and all that you
> >> can be sure is that they like to try to squick people with their
> >> perverse rhetoric. did you actually SEE this practice?
>
> > No! I'd be happy to discover it's all a pose for shock....
>
> there's a trend that started, to my knowledge, with the ONA,
> transverse to the CoS and LaVey and its law-abidingness. they
> explain how they "really do" kill people, not just with symbols,
> and they identify this as sacrifice, or 'culling', etc. proto-
> Satanists like Crowley did the same thing (he did in his 'Magick
> in Theory and Practice', Part Three of Liber ABA, Book Four,
> "Magick"; he talked about 'sacrificing children' as a metaphor
> for masturbation).
But drinking the blood of a sick animal has issues for the individual
beyond the ethical or moral or criminal or whatever. It's just plain
stoopid. Blackwood, I think, mentioned that he sacrificed sick
animals as a way to excuse his religious behavior to the uninvolved
public -- 'I'm not so evil...I killed a sickly animal that was already
at death's door and put it out of its misery.' I feel if you are
going to do an act that society frowns upon, and boast about it in
public, then you should own it without excuses.
>
> >...Blackwood's voice blog here:
> >http://www.snapvine.com/bp/HLXvcHsOEd6xPgAwSFxw7A
>
> I'll give it a listen soon. lately i've been analyzing and
> transcribing the CoS Video Interview disc.
>
>
> > There are hundreds of these voice entries without any titles,
> > so finding the one where he boasts about killing only sickly
> > goats would be quite a project to find. Should have made a
> > note of the date, but didn't.
>
> better than killing only vibrant strong goats? sounds like a
> wolf/vampire motif.
Interesting point of view, thanks.
>
> >>> I'm not a vegetarian or vegan or anything like that, but the
> >>> use of an animal in a stupid, risky, way that looks like
> >>> little more than an attempt to shock is not a positive image
> >>> for occultists in general.
>
> >> hehehe, so when have Satanists sought to construct positive
> >> images for themselves? I know LaVey did mix it up, what with
> >> the 'No killing little children or animals' bit, but he wasn't
> >> always Mr. Goodie-Goodie.
> > I am not demanding goodie-goodieness from anyone. I think it's
> > stoopid to drink the blood of a sick animal.
>
> dang, there's a bit of a history amongst the de factos and the
> Satanic Christians. Crowley's Italian cult drank the blood of
> a cat that apparently had distemper. Ozzy drank the blood of
> a bat (and had to get rabies shots? not sure that's true).
Dunno if it's true. But my father's family in Europe were petty
nobility, and their estate fed their family and the peasants who lived
on it. Supposedly there are so few animal parasites there that a huge
treat was eating a bit of raw meat from a newly killed farm animal
(yuck), and it was safe to do this. I'm thinking that if it wasn't
safe, they would have made a peasant eat it instead LOL
>
> > And if you didn't do such a stoopid thing, I consider it
> > irresponsible for a purported leader of Satanism
> > (ie, Blackwood) to mislead people about the his
> > method of 'sacrifice' or whatever.
>
> like i said, the ONA did that for years and to my knowledge
> that was all just writings from Anton Long and friends. more
> recently this was 'revived' and there's a host of Satanians
> who are hot on the notion of 'humane animal sacrifice' which
> sometimes includes drinking blood (ToV!) of the victims.
Not just ToV. Paul Valentine (what an arse!) shared a website, I
recall, with someone who was interested in human blood drinking. Had
suggestions for trying to keep your partner out of the ER (and you out
of jail) for being clumsy with a scalpel.
>
> >>> I realize that animal sacrifice is part of the traditional
> >>> past of all humans, but it seems to me that if someone felt
> >>> a serious religious need to follow this tradtion they would
> >>> not be voice blogging about it. =A0
>
> >> reasonable. there are lots of Satanists pushing for all kinds
> >> of ridiculous things which are at points merely anti-Christian
> >> and at points things whch Christians don't like about other
> >> religions that Satanists want to expand their envelopes into.
> >> I think we should be focussing on a narrow band (torture and
> >> waste of food) and not focussing on what some religious do
> >> and what others do not.
>
> > Agreed! Our pre-monotheistic ancestors respected Life,
> > mostly took what they needed for their nourishment
> > (physical and spiritual). Not perfectly benign or
> > Goodie-Goodie, but not show business horror, either.
>
> agreed. they didn't always have the greenest practices or
> outlook, but more often than not they seem to have had an
> abiding respect for the animal in question.
Brutality is not healthy for the victim or the perpetrator.
>
> >>> But then I am a boring old lady...biggest excitement of an
> >>> occult nature in my life right now is a 'haunted' lock on
> >>> the door of my new condo.
>
> >> spooky! what does it do? glow in the dark? :)
>
> > No, it won't open for some people. The woman I bought
> > it from had the lock sets changed after she moved in
> > because she was tired of fighting the lock. Worked
> > fine for a few months she said, but then the same
> > problem started up again. The dudes who put the new
> > flooring in for me couldn't get in, but the painter
> > dude had no problem. I never had an issue with
> > getting in, but apparently the real estate agents did.
> > It's a geothermal subdivision, so I wonder if all the
> > undergroud water pipes have something to do with it?
> > Not my spooky field of expertise.
>
> fun! could be temperature/humidity-related. I tend to
> do Ghostbuster analysis until the thing is explained
> away, but refrain for those who like spooky stories.
Could be weather related. Homes built on rock tend to move around
depending on the amount of moisture in the ground. A multi=home
building is long, and can flex quite a bit.
Luv,
Kori
>
> nocTifer
> satanservice.org@nocTifer
> --
> yronwode.org@nagasiva - Gospel of Satan!http://www.gospel-of-satan.com
TJ
Temple of the Vampire is run by "Nemo" George Smith of the COS. You
can simply ask him to send you their literature.
About Sacrifice. Awhile back, the city of Hialeah FL had a case about
animal sacrifice - and board of health was in on it. AMER was an org
with people in it, including Aquino and some Wiccans, set up to do
sort of what the ACLU does, but I never saw they had clout. Well, the
Jews got in on the Hialeah business and they won the right to do
animal sacrifice - and I mean where they cut the throat of the chicken
and spray the blood all over someone. They don't just kill it to eat
it. And here is more on this, more recent - another case. Aside from
that, we KNOW that some of the cults offshoot from Santeria do HUMAN
sacrifice because crimes were done and perps were caught. Matamoros I
think it was. Anyway, here
Santeria Priest Appeals Animal Sacrifice Ruling
A Texas city has won the first round in what may be an extended legal
battle over whether its ban on animal slaughter violates the First
Amendment rights of a Santeria priest who practices the ritual
sacrifice of goats.
The city of Euless has made it unlawful “to slaughter or to maintain
any property for the purpose of slaughtering any animal in the city.”
In 1993, the U.S. Supreme Court struck down a similar law, finding the
city of Hialeah, Fla., had discriminated against a Santeria church.
Church of Lukumi Babalu Aye v. City of Hialeah, 508 U.S. 520 (1993).
Jose Merced relied heavily on Lukumi in his challenge to the Euless
law. He sued the city for injunctive relief after an animal control
officer told him he could not sacrifice a goat in his home.
But after a bench trial of the case in March, U.S. District Judge John
McBryde entered judgment for the city of Euless, which had argued that
Lukumi was distinguishable because, unlike Hialeah, it did not have
any intent to discriminate against Santeria and its practitioners.
The Supreme Court “concluded that the only object of the Hialeah
ordinances was to prevent the Santerias from conducting animal
sacrifice,” the city said in a trial brief. “Nothing could be further
from the truth in Euless.”
Merced has filed an appeal with the U.S. 5th Circuit Court of Appeals.
He contends that the discriminatory effect of the ordinance makes it
unconstitutional.
“The fact of discriminatory effect, not the Defendant's intent to
discriminate, entitles the Plaintiff to the injunction he seeks,”
Merced argued in court papers.
Religious freedom cases have been particularly divisive at the Supreme
Court lately. Lukumi generated a majority opinion by Justice Anthony
M. Kennedy and three concurrences -– with only Justice John Paul
Stevens joining Kennedy in his discussion of the intent behind
Hialeah's ban on animal sacrifice.
“[T]he ordinances had as their object the suppression of religion,”
Kennedy concluded.
Justice Antonin Scalia took a different approach -– one that supports
Merced. “The First Amendment does not refer to the purposes for which
legislators enact laws, but to the effects of the laws enacted,” he
said in his concurrence, and the court should not be “in the business
of invalidating laws by reason of the evil motives of their authors.”
The Becket Fund, a public law interest firm which specializes in
religious freedom cases, is representing Merced. “The issue of
Santeria and animal sacrifice has already been decided by the United
States Supreme Court,” legal counsel Lori Windham said, referring to
Lukumi.
But Merced's case suggests the Supremes have left ample room for
disagreement in the lower courts.
On Jul 29, 1:47 pm, satanservice.org@nocTifer (nocTifer) wrote:
> hi Kori,
>
> you say that you're not a Satanist, but you're still posting
> in alt.satanism. what's the deal? you a Setian? I recall you
> had a break from the ToS or something. are you an interested
> researcher on some or all of this for some reason? do tell.
>
> >>>> so is it a competition for who will be called "The Black Pope"?
> >>>> news reports have positioned HP Peter Gilmore in that slot when
> >>>> doing stories on the CoS and their rites and holy days. is it
> >>>> something the Satanic Herd vies over?
> >> i do see his public expressions and have caught
> >> a number of his media interviews, some of which are at Youtube!
> >> I have made a neato Playlist there at:
>
> >>http://www.youtube.com/user/nagasiva#grid/user/A1ED139CCBD
> >> part of which ncludes HP Gilmore, whose expression i
> >> generally can endorse and enjoy!
>
> KoriHoughton <korihough...@gmail.com>:
> > stated in his blog athttp://edred.net/community/
> > There are hundreds of these voice entries without any- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -...
>
> read more »
KoriHoughton
>
> About Sacrifice. Awhile back, the city of Hialeah FL had a case about
> animal sacrifice - and board of health was in on it. AMER was an org
> with people in it, including Aquino and some Wiccans, set up to do
> sort of what the ACLU does, but I never saw they had clout.
What involvement did AMER have with the Hialeah case? Which side of
the case did AMER support? Link? Documentation? Anything?
> Well, the
> Jews got in on the Hialeah business and they won the right to do
> animal sacrifice - and I mean where they cut the throat of the chicken
> and spray the blood all over someone. They don't just kill it to eat
> it. And here is more on this, more recent - another case. Aside from
> that, we KNOW that some of the cults offshoot from Santeria do HUMAN
> sacrifice because crimes were done and perps were caught. Matamoros I
> think it was.
Crime is not human sacrifice. Can you provide documentation that
Santeria cults have performed religious human sacrifices in the US?
There is no mention of AMER here. How were they involved?
Luv,
Kori
TJ
forgot name. Long time ago. Don't know what side they were on. It
was a LONG time ago, when the Hialeah case was afoot.
Offshoot of Santeria I said. Read carefully. Crimes in Matamoros, I
forgot the name of the religious offshoot that was named. - Humans
sacrificed (killed) in ritual style. It's happened. Ask the Feds.
It was all over the news. NO, not part of SRA. It was real crime.
> Kori- Hide quoted text -
KoriHoughton
> Short, no time. I heard of the case from someone in Amer, a Wiccan,
> forgot name. Long time ago. Don't know what side they were on. It
> was a LONG time ago, when the Hialeah case was afoot.
I don't think AMER is even around these days.
>
> Offshoot of Santeria I said. Read carefully. Crimes in Matamoros, I
> forgot the name of the religious offshoot that was named. - Humans
> sacrificed (killed) in ritual style. It's happened. Ask the Feds.
> It was all over the news. NO, not part of SRA. It was real crime.
Exactly. Matamoros was mass killings by a drug gang, criminal
behavior dressed up with some spooky props to give them more power
over the minds of the superstitious. I wanted to know if there were
actual religious human sacrifices related to Santeria in the USA. I'm
pretty sure there are no known cases of this. The only case of actual
human sacrifice I've heard of in the Western Hemisphere in modern
times was in Chile during a massive earthquake. Even for that the
documentation is pretty weak. If there is religious human sacrifice
happening, it's probably infanticide. Until fairly recently, very
easy to get away with because for people who truly love their
children, killing them is unthinkable.
Luv,
Kori
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
TJ
> On Jul 30, 12:36 am, TJ <t...@post.com> wrote:
>
> > Short, no time. I heard of the case from someone in Amer, a Wiccan,
> > forgot name. Long time ago. Don't know what side they were on. It
> > was a LONG time ago, when the Hialeah case was afoot.
>
> I don't think AMER is even around these days.
Remember when Zeena wrote the letter to her father calling him
unfather? Amer was around. It was one of them that showed me a copy
of her letter. They were around. I don't remember WHEN that was -
none of this communication was computer. It was snail mail. I heard
about Hialeah from them. If I remember right, they were more focused
on some Wiccan that was mistreated in a hospital by a Xian nurse.
>
>
>
> > Offshoot of Santeria I said. Read carefully. Crimes in Matamoros, I
> > forgot the name of the religious offshoot that was named. - Humans
> > sacrificed (killed) in ritual style. It's happened. Ask the Feds.
> > It was all over the news. NO, not part of SRA. It was real crime.
>
> Exactly. Matamoros was mass killings by a drug gang, criminal
> behavior dressed up with some spooky props to give them more power
> over the minds of the superstitious. I wanted to know if there were
> actual religious human sacrifices related to Santeria in the USA. I'm
> pretty sure there are no known cases of this. The only case of actual
> human sacrifice I've heard of in the Western Hemisphere in modern
> times was in Chile during a massive earthquake. Even for that the
> documentation is pretty weak. If there is religious human sacrifice
> happening, it's probably infanticide. Until fairly recently, very
> easy to get away with because for people who truly love their
> children, killing them is unthinkable.
Then you're asking the wrong person. I don't keep up with this. If
someone showed me something, well - whatever. I LIVE in FL and I'd
not have been aware of the Hialeah animal sacrifice big court case if
someone didn't tell me. I usually don't (that doesn't mean never)
watch the news or read the papers. Not interested. You'd have to ask
the Feds or whoever keeps track of such religious groups.
Of course, there was that movie - Believers or whatever? Not sure
that's the title either.
KoriHoughton
> On Jul 30, 1:03 am, KoriHoughton <korihough...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 30, 12:36 am, TJ <t...@post.com> wrote:
>
> > > Short, no time. I heard of the case from someone in Amer, a Wiccan,
> > > forgot name. Long time ago. Don't know what side they were on. It
> > > was a LONG time ago, when the Hialeah case was afoot.
>
> > I don't think AMER is even around these days.
>
> Remember when Zeena wrote the letter to her father calling him
> unfather? Amer was around. It was one of them that showed me a copy
> of her letter. They were around. I don't remember WHEN that was -
> none of this communication was computer. It was snail mail. I heard
> about Hialeah from them. If I remember right, they were more focused
> on some Wiccan that was mistreated in a hospital by a Xian nurse.
I discovered FIDOnet in the late 1980s. Not many people had modems at
home, but we did. This was before Zeena's letter, even before she
appeared on Geraldo's Halloweeen special.
There is a huge FIDOnet archive on an old computer I have, and much
much more on floppy disk. Dunno how I would access it all right now,
but there were lots of threads about AMER in there.
I never joined AMER. Whatever good intentions the founders may have
had, once the Aquinos were involved there was no way I was going to
put myself on that mailing list. And, yes, I'm sure most of the
contact was snail mail because the internet was mostly limited to
government offices and academic libraries at that point.
I don't think AMER ever had much 'clout', otherwise they would have
had some lasting influence and even be visible today. As far as I
know, AMER is long gone and was never much more than a mailing list.
A great way to collect names and addresses of non-mainstream religious
bodies and practitioners...cough, cough. Probably one of the last
chances to do that, because much more anonymous internet technology
for home use was on the horizon.
> > > Offshoot of Santeria I said. Read carefully. Crimes in Matamoros, I
> > > forgot the name of the religious offshoot that was named. - Humans
> > > sacrificed (killed) in ritual style. It's happened. Ask the Feds.
> > > It was all over the news. NO, not part of SRA. It was real crime.
>
> > Exactly. Matamoros was mass killings by a drug gang, criminal
> > behavior dressed up with some spooky props to give them more power
> > over the minds of the superstitious. I wanted to know if there were
> > actual religious human sacrifices related to Santeria in the USA. I'm
> > pretty sure there are no known cases of this. The only case of actual
> > human sacrifice I've heard of in the Western Hemisphere in modern
> > times was in Chile during a massive earthquake. Even for that the
> > documentation is pretty weak. If there is religious human sacrifice
> > happening, it's probably infanticide. Until fairly recently, very
> > easy to get away with because for people who truly love their
> > children, killing them is unthinkable.
>
> Then you're asking the wrong person. I don't keep up with this. If
> someone showed me something, well - whatever. I LIVE in FL and I'd
> not have been aware of the Hialeah animal sacrifice big court case if
> someone didn't tell me. I usually don't (that doesn't mean never)
> watch the news or read the papers. Not interested. You'd have to ask
> the Feds or whoever keeps track of such religious groups.
I remember reading some articles about the Hialeah case in the NYT in
the 90s, but it didn't concern me. Animal sacrifice is something all
of our ancestors did, not that long ago. The house I was living in at
that time was surrounded by farms, and all my neighbors hunted -- on
their property and on state game land. I think that a bunch of bubbas
getting all hot and bothered about the first day of antlered deer
season has a less harmful influence on society than their families
going to church twice a week to contemplate the supposed son of a
deity being tortured to death for his philosophy -- and how this
benefits them. But that's just me. Besides, deer balogna is pretty
tasty stuff.
>
> Of course, there was that movie - Believers or whatever? Not sure
> that's the title either.
I wouldn't know. I doubt that a film, especially if it was made for
teevee, would be factual.
Luv,
Kori
nocTifer
KoriHoughton <koriho...@gmail.com>:
> Hi, nocTifer! I luv alt.satanism for 2 reasons:
> there are some very intelligent and witty people here
I've noticed this. who are your favourites and why?
> and I am interested in many things occult.
that's neat. what strikes the 'occult' bell for you?
does it primarily revolve around organizations and
initiations and ceremonies?
does it include spellcrafting and talismans construction?
> I've never been a Setian. I am a renegade Thelemite.
> I got interested in the TOS because of some information
> my magickal mentor left me just before he died.
ah yes i remember when you told me this before and some
of what that included. it was private/secret as i
remember and since then i have obtained copies of the
ToS publications and have sufficient apprehension of the
ToS as to glean its Thelemic slant. Aquino was decidedly
taken by Crowley where LaVey was not so much. the
differential is an important part of Satanian analysis.
> Since I couldn't ask him about the message -- it was
> in his usual cryptic style LOL -- I figured I'd just
> have to learn what I could and then see what it all
> means...or something like that.
I suppose that's another aspect of the occult:
its penchance for secrecy and tethering around data
with either silence or restrictions. I've negotiated
that within various communities primarily by opposing
it (i.e. not allowing myself to be restrained to such
secrecy as a gating mechanism for information/data or
entry into some societal structure). it's fascinating
to me how that all plays out, and while i don't myself
engage it much i do pay a lot of attention to it and
how and who does what with secrecy.
> And what a long strange trip it's been!
thanks for your reflections. I like the newsgroup
myself and have found it valuable to fly through
occasionally and at times focus lots of attention
here. since our interests overlap it isn't too
surprising that we repeatedly cross paths. your
scrutinizing questions are admirable and your
humour a definite bonus. :)
nocTifer
--------------------------------------------
satanservice.org@nocTifer
--------------------------------------------
- Consider the HISS - Independent Satanity -
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/infernal-horde
nocTifer
KoriHoughton <koriho...@gmail.com>:
>>> Maybe the contentions stand on their own merit, as part of
>>> the history of how it all started back in the day.
nocTifer:
>> from a religious perspective. as someone who has studied religion,
>> i'm sure that you know that there's interpreter and political
>> bias that intrudes where it may be distinguished and separated
>> out by sociologists of religion doing an analysis. it's quite
>> interesting to know that Joseph Smith was an alcoholic who was
>> totally into Jupiter Square talismans. LaVey does not seem to
>> be the most reliable source on the origins of Satanism. did you
>> notice that there are few other names given by people who were
>> involved in the founding of the Church of Satan? yet i know
>> that there were co-founders, one of whom was DHegarty. I'd
>> like to identify all of those others, but am not sure where
>> this information is to be had. WHEN it actually occurred is
>> yet another databit that is sometimes covered over by legend.
KoriHoughton <koriho...@gmail.com>:
>In the case of the COS founders, I think the reality would be far more
>interesting than any legend. These were some very smart and creative
>people. They were in school before 'new math' came into vogue, so they
>knew how to think and express themselves -- my late husband's
>generation.
so who do you think were involved with this? I know that
there was a certain Count in SF who promoted the church
in his newspaper column, and Diane Hegarty was supposed
by some (and denied by others) to be part of it. when
did Aquino get into the picture? Bonewits was apparently
a hanger-on a little later. should you have an actual
interest in the thread i will cite some hard copy on
the matter, however reliable (Lewis, maybe Lyons).
nagasiva
KoriHoughton <koriho...@gmail.com>:
>>> There must be some reason why
>>> so many occultists have also been spooks...because they are comfy with
>>> the 'facts' about their personal lives, their actions and their
>>> motivations being mostly legendary.
dictionary.com:
spook: 2. Slang A secret agent; a spy.
nagasiva:
>> interesting idea. there's a mystique about that 'occult'
>> character also. how many, precisely, of these occultists
>> have actually been such 'spooks'. the only ones that i
>> can think of offhand are Aquino and Dee? others?
KoriHoughton <koriho...@gmail.com>:
>Crowley,
not a secret agent or spy. he got caught fraternizig with
The Fatherland and portrayed himself in the wake of that
embarrassment as a spy.
>McMurtry,
I did not recall that he was more than a military man.
surfing google on McMurtry Grady spy i find that Motta
(in a court case attempting to *discredit* the man)
accused McMurtry of being a CIA agent. there are those
who are (c)OTO opponents who accept this accusation as
a fact. I have no substantiation for it. I'll keep my
eye open and post to this thread if i find it though.
btw this should be noted in terms of accusation motives:
Findings of Fact (etc.) McMurtry vs. Motta
http://www.skepticfiles.org/mys4/findings.htm
>a whole bunch of European dudes who were in the pre-
>Crowley OTO and the FS,
OTO (Ordo Templi Orientis) Kellner? Reuss? Traenker?
Fr. Koenig has a page at:
Theodor Reuss as Spy
A Letter from Francis King to John Symonds
http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/sunrise/francis.htm
"In 1884 Reuss was expelled from the [Socialist]
League as being a spy for the German Secret
Service -- full details are in the "Commonweal"
for, I think, May 1884 (this is at Colindale if
you want to look up the details)."
FS (Fraternitas Saturni): Grosche? Grau? Spiesberger? Tegtmeier/UD?
I find no data indicating that any of these others were
so described or accused as the case might have been.
>Gurdjieff,
this sums up what i understand about him, from Wikipedia:
"It was speculated by many authors that Gurdjieff
was a spy, most likely of the Tzar, during the
wars. This claim had never been proven, or widely
dismissed due to the fact that Gurdjieff had
access to most places in Asia. Gurdjieff
personally commented indirectly on this claim
in his book Beelzebub's Tales when he said that
"during a war every person that is somewhat
awake is considered a spy because of his
seriousness and alertness."
-- http://www.wildmanwildfood.com/pages/G._I._Gurdjieff.htm
(accessed 8/1/09)
Wiki?! LOL
> and a whole bunch of early 20th Century racialists
> (aka Nazis).
the Nazis weren't just racists, they were also
totalitarianists and in a general sense fasists.
I'm curious who you mean here.
> Ever read books by James Webb?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Webb_(historian)
no, is he reliable? I gather his work was ignored. he had
something of a name for himself in the occult community,
especially in Chicago as i recall. his works from Wiki
included:
Flight from Reason (1971) MacDonald & Co.,
London ISBN 0-356-03634-0
The Occult Underground (1988) Open Court
Publishing. ISBN 0-8126-9073-7
The Occult Establishment: The Dawn of the
New Age and The Occult Establishment
(1976) Open Court Publishing. ISBN 0-87548-434-4
The Harmonious Circle: The Lives and Work of
G. I. Gurdjieff, P.D. Ouspensky, and Their Followers
(1980) Putnam Publishing. ISBN 0-399-11465-3
so you may be following out the Webb assertions, then,
in your claims about spooks? does it matter that the
page to which you point mentions his controversy?
"His theories of Gurdjieff's identity as a
foreign agent, and theories on where he
actually travelled before 1917, are the
controversial points in this book. It is
considered to be the most comprehensive
Gurdjieff biography."
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Webb_(historian)
(accessed 8/1/09)
do you consider Webb to be a valuable contribution
to either occultism or to history? if so, why?
did you know him prior to his death in 1980?
nagasiva
--
yronwode.org@nagasiva - Gospel of Satan! http://www.gospel-of-satan.com
KoriHoughton
> E6
>
> KoriHoughton <korihough...@gmail.com>:
>
> >>> There must be some reason why
> >>> so many occultists have also been spooks...because they are comfy with
> >>> the 'facts' about their personal lives, their actions and their
> >>> motivations being mostly legendary.
>
> dictionary.com:
> spook: 2. Slang A secret agent; a spy.
Hi, nagasiva! Yes, this is a pretty standard simple definition.
However, I am going to complicate things a bit now, by stating that I
think a lot of occultist-spooks were not James Bond with magick
powers, but really men (mostly) who knew people in, and traveled to, a
lot of countries foreign to them either for business, occult work, or
both. As many European upper glass dudes also had some military
background (and hence connections) it would not be unusual if they
were asked to observe and report after their travels, being debriefed
by colleagues from their past military service or university days.
All in the name of patriotism, of course.
Information is also shared this way within the business community --
you know, at the country club or cocktail party...and also by
industrial espionage. When I worked for a company that got its start
in the 1980s after some deregulation was permitted by the courts,
documents were stolen by competitors from the data center, and images
captured by security cameras apparently moved the head honchos to
require us to keep the blinds drawn at all times over the windows (it
was on the ground floor).
This is not the way I think, or the way I run my life, but plenty of
well-connected people feel differently.
>
> nagasiva:
>
> >> interesting idea. there's a mystique about that 'occult'
> >> character also. how many, precisely, of these occultists
> >> have actually been such 'spooks'. the only ones that i
> >> can think of offhand are Aquino and Dee? others?
>
> KoriHoughton <korihough...@gmail.com>:
>
> >Crowley,
>
> not a secret agent or spy. he got caught fraternizig with
> The Fatherland and portrayed himself in the wake of that
> embarrassment as a spy.
I find it a surprise that Crowley could have traveled all over the
globe in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries, had contacts on every
inhabited continent, and was never considered anything more than a
weirdo and public spectacle -- with no information to share worth
bothing with? Maybe...
>
> >McMurtry,
>
> I did not recall that he was more than a military man.
> surfing google on McMurtry Grady spy i find that Motta
> (in a court case attempting to *discredit* the man)
> accused McMurtry of being a CIA agent. there are those
> who are (c)OTO opponents who accept this accusation as
> a fact. I have no substantiation for it. I'll keep my
> eye open and post to this thread if i find it though.
Again, I wasn't suggesting that McMurtry was a surfer d00d James
Bond. To me it makes sense that being an associate of Crowley's would
have triggered some interest.
>
> btw this should be noted in terms of accusation motives:
>
> Findings of Fact (etc.) McMurtry vs. Motta
> http://www.skepticfiles.org/mys4/findings.htm
Yes, I am aware of this case, and have a nearly complete set of
hardcopy documents related to it.
>
> >a whole bunch of European dudes who were in the pre-
> >Crowley OTO and the FS,
>
> OTO (Ordo Templi Orientis) Kellner? Reuss? Traenker?
> Fr. Koenig has a page at:
>
> Theodor Reuss as Spy
> A Letter from Francis King to John Symonds
> http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/sunrise/francis.htm
>
> "In 1884 Reuss was expelled from the [Socialist]
> League as being a spy for the German Secret
> Service -- full details are in the "Commonweal"
> for, I think, May 1884 (this is at Colindale if
> you want to look up the details)."
>
> FS (Fraternitas Saturni): Grosche? Grau? Spiesberger? Tegtmeier/UD?
>
> I find no data indicating that any of these others were
> so described or accused as the case might have been.
I am not 'accusing' anyone of criminal activity, or being a 'bad'
person. Members of subsets of societies exchange information all the
time, much of which is considered private or protected when passed on
the first time from the principal party. As in gossip, for example.
A lot of spookiness in my view is simply gossip about what goes on in
a competitor business or rival nation. It's not all rocket science
secret formulas. But I forgot to mention Jack Parsons, then, didn't I?
>
> >Gurdjieff,
>
> this sums up what i understand about him, from Wikipedia:
>
> "It was speculated by many authors that Gurdjieff
> was a spy, most likely of the Tzar, during the
> wars. This claim had never been proven, or widely
> dismissed due to the fact that Gurdjieff had
> access to most places in Asia. Gurdjieff
> personally commented indirectly on this claim
> in his book Beelzebub's Tales when he said that
> "during a war every person that is somewhat
> awake is considered a spy because of his
> seriousness and alertness."
> --http://www.wildmanwildfood.com/pages/G._I._Gurdjieff.htm
> (accessed 8/1/09)
>
> Wiki?! LOL
And LMAO as well.
>
> > and a whole bunch of early 20th Century racialists
> > (aka Nazis).
>
> the Nazis weren't just racists, they were also
> totalitarianists and in a general sense fasists.
> I'm curious who you mean here.
Proto totalitarian groups in Europe from both Left and Right operated
at times as secret societies. Maybe not occult per se, but I don't
think it's unlikely that underground philosophical streams never mix.
>
> > Ever read books by James Webb?
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Webb_(historian)
>
> no, is he reliable? I gather his work was ignored.
Webb's view was that irrational ideas from the occult and pseudo-
science had influenced the course of modern history to the detriment
of society. He was not an occultist. The circumstances of his death
were unusual.
http://www.forteantimes.com/features/articles/264/the_damned_the_strange_death_of_james_webb.html
Had Webb lived, I think it would have been likely for him to continue
writing about the cross-connections among political (including
racialist) movements and the occult that persist into the present.
And there were people who did not want those books to be written by
Webb when they could be done more to their taste by Nicholas Goodrick-
Clarke.
I've read THE HARMONIOUS CIRCLE (own it in hard copy) and there is
nothing in that book that in my view suggests that Gurdjieff did
anything unethical/criminal. But I'm not one of his followers, and
apparently some of them found the book objectionable. Eh.
>
> do you consider Webb to be a valuable contribution
> to either occultism or to history? if so, why?
> did you know him prior to his death in 1980?
I did not know Webb. In fact, I only found out he was dead a few
years ago. I've been pretty much pre-occupied caring for my husband
during the years of his prolonged illness (he passed away this past
November) to be engaging in much serious study and work of my own.
I feel Webb's contribution to be a good splash of cold water in the
face of contemporary mindless religious faiths (of all kinds,
traditional and mew age) by suggesting that religion (or spirituality)
never strays very far from the influence of politics, and vice versa.
Something I think bears keeping in mind.
Luv,
Kori
>
> nagasiva
> --
> yronwode.org@nagasiva - Gospel of Satan!http://www.gospel-of-satan.com
nocTifer
[removing large portions and moving them away from this
thread, consolidating Blackwood/Pope strands; hoping
to draw others into the discussion; identifying
everything that i can about GM Blackwood in the
post below; hard data download, watch out; i saved
out some good portion and made a file on Blackwood.]
KoriHoughton <koriho...@gmail.com>:
>>> That's a great concept to aim for,
nocTifer:
>> Black Pope? why? isn't it totally Catholic-oriented?
>> are there notions of what the Black Pope is? has this,
>> too, been mapped by Christians in their diatribes?
LaVey was claiming it early on. the Satanic marriage
of John Raymond and Judith Case as covered by Calif
newspapers on 2/1/67 trumpeted him as such.
KoriHoughton <koriho...@gmail.com> writes:
> It's funny. Funny in the way that the COS is
> called a 'church' but is the opposite.
there's a big batch of mischaracterization here:
Church of Satan -- not a church
Satanic Bible -- not a bible
Black Pope -- not a pope
Satanism -- not a religion worshipping Satan
Satan -- not an entity called Satan
next we ought ask whether Satanist priests are
really priests. I know that the CoS made a big
deal out of marrying and baptising and burying
with LaVeyan media events. that doesn't mean
that this 'church' is really running this way.
does anyone know if these "priests" are doing
anything priestly at this time? I don't often
hear about such things. there are outreach
services into prisons for CoS members
(I presume, rather than 'Satanists', not sure).
i.e. chaplaincy. this inroad was made with the
help of Aquino presumably (Chaplain's Handbook)
and capitalized on the fact that a naval officer
by the name of Edward Olsen received a Satanic
funeral. but have there been other such events,
or was the interest gleaning notoriety and then
moving on to lives of indulgent atheism without
religous ceremony of any real and lasting kind?
i.e. was it all for show?
> A COS style Black Pope would not be a pope.
not likely explained in the media coverage.
that is, it isn't something that is out front
on the CoS professions of their org that
another name for the HP (and what of the HPs?
is she the Black Popette or Black Papess??)
is 'The Black Pope'.
> At least the way I see it.
it seems obvious that they do not mean it in
this way and that it reflects importantly on
their chosen style of raiment to mock the
Roman Catholic Church fairly consistently.
> Anyone who bashes LaVey or a current COS
> honcho for stylin' as the Black Pope,
it's a decided weakness.
> and therefore claiming the authority of
> the RC pope, just doesn't get it, I think.
Blackwood or someone else is stating that
this claim of being the Black Pope makes
them have the authority of the RC Pope??
I doubt that, unless they're very dumb.
> Neither do the blockheads from other orgs
> who want to compete for the title of
> Black Pope as a means of invalidating
> LaVey and the COS.
that's wrong. this is in line with the
previous activities by Discordians who
sought to make *every single one of their
(informal, by handing out business cards)
membership a pope!*. Satanism has strong
currents of adversarialism, and it is easy
to understand why, with the egotism involved
and the inversion-properties of such a current
that not only would they compete as a gaggle
but they would seek to disrupt the Black Pope
in the same exact way that the Black Pope is
likely trying to disrupt the Roman Catholics.
that is, it IS important that the CoS and its
LaVeyan dynastic be invalidated as a *stand-
alone authority*, repudiating the notion of
an organization and priesthood symbolizing
something important about authority whatever.
I think you might find a connection to this
in association with the Wandering Bishops of
the Thelemic community and their interests in
establishing a Gnostic Catholic Church and
any number of variants.
> Satanism just IS,
easy for you to say. :)
I would agree with you if you said that
each Satanism concretizes. in that we may
find that a variety of Satanisms come into
being and form part of the constellation
which is Satanity.
> and doesn't need no stinkin' guy in a
> dress (white or black) pretending to
> be infailible.
apparently it does need a guy in a dress
(black) pretending to be a pope. this is
part of the pretense which opposes, and
insofar as the organization which sports
it can get away with fooling the culture
in which it floats this, so it is believed
(as by the fundie Prot Christians who are
already anti-papal as well as anti-satanist).
i.e. it is like dressing up nazi uniforms,
but on a religious plane. the further (and
the more radical version of this would be
dressing up as Imperial Wizards from the KKK).
what distinguishes the Black from the White?
kindly detail it, if you like. :)
>>>> LOL well that's not surprising. the CoS
>>>> is often the standard in the Satanian
>>>> world against which the rest of us are
>>>> measured, and a goodly number of
>>>> Satanists have their eyes set on
>>>> opposing the CoS because it has become
>>>> 'the new orthodoxy' as they see it.
>>>
>>> I am not sure that the COS would stand
>>> as 'orthodoxy' for Blackwood's Temples
>>> of Satan.
>>
>> I don't know how it can be avoided. it's
>> like the Roman Catholics and their
>> orthodoxy to the Protestants. I suppose
>> that this is WHY the various other
>> Catholics chose the title 'Orthodox',
>> so as to set themselves up as the overt
>> competition of this type. their
>> compatriots had already tried to
>> circumscribe 'universal'.
>
> The Orthodox or Eastern Catholics
now you're using it as a name. the two are
*different valences of usage*. one instance
is 'an orthodoxy against which to rally'
and is a Protestant struggle. the other
instance is 'the Orthodox church' which is
an establishment of a correctness standard.
I can agree that these are very different.
> rejected the concept that the Roman
> Church was catholic universal when
> they diverged over dogma.
correct. the selection of the name
'Catholic' was made before the split of
these churches. they had to add the
'Orthodox' in *addition* to the 'Catholic'
in order to distinguish themsleves from
Rome's pontiff and the previous regime.
> The Eastern [Orthodox] Church accepted
> only the concepts of the earliest Councils,
> so for them 'orthodoxy' was holding to an
> older way than the Roman Church.
all agreed. the 'Great Schism' established
the divergence of catholicism into major
differentiated religious sects.
> By analogy, then, Blackwood is 'orthodox'.
only if you give him that much prestige. :)
I do not do so, after a search on his data.
my usage was Protestant (as i am living in
a Protestant zone populated by RC churches
which had previously established hegemony
(California)). 'to struggle against an
orthodoxy' is more consonant with the CoS
and its nuveaureligious/Wiccan/New Ageist
rebellion against established authorities.
important:
there weren't any 'councils' prior to LaVey.
> At this time, his voice blogs are rants
> about his Temples of Satan having the
> oldest roots of any Satanist organization
how amusing. the argument that 'I was the
first Satanist' don't require much in the
way of substantiation, but few can offer it.
the contenders that i have seen established
by any reliable sources do not include
anyone by the name of Blackwood to my read,
though i am curious about all such claims
(they are Sloane OH/1948! and Blythe CA/1962?).
> and he rejects all contemporary Satanisms,
> especially the COS.
that's indicative that he is DERIVED from
and struggling with the CoS. it's part of
all Satanisms (what i term, as an aggregate,
'Satanity') that they tend to struggle with
one another and put the others down as
somehow inferior. if they didn't or don't
do that then from my vantage point they
would be UNUSUAL.
>>> Blackwood's org is theistic Satanism,
that puts him down as a later construction
in the wake of the Black Goat/Azazel/Vera
crew after the Temple of Set (whose acronym
ToS Blackwood is mimicking here) and Aquino's
or (especially) Vera's exposition on these
notions. one may find Ms. Vera on the web
at the proper central location for that
type of Satanity:
Theistic Satanism
http://www.theistic-satanism.org
Diane explains it well at this page, though
she doesn't exactly detail it with respect
to history so much as org-affiliation and
persons associated with those orgs. she
is reasonably interested in churches as
compared to individuals. Vera's website at
this location is recorded by archive.org
as far back as 2004 (and she was around a
long time before that espousing theistic
Satanism by my recall).
Blackwood's name does not appear on her
page. the only 'temple' mentioned here is
the Temple of Set. Blackwood may wish to
claim all manner of previous theistic
Satanic activity, but it has escaped the
notice of some of the main proponents.
his templesofsatan.org has no record at
archive.org. and he appears to be trying
to grab up key terms for internet search
by "having established" the Church of
Theistic Satanism
C.O.T.S. Temples of Satan
Church of Theistic Satanism
http://churchofsatanism.ning.com/
and he's not substantiating his dates
except to say that he started 'when he
was (at least) 13 years old'. since he
doesn't seem to provide us with his birth
date, such a claim is difficult to either
evaluate or test. the important issue is
when he started doing *tracked social
stuff* whcih intersected with society.
typically religious and occultists make
pedigree claims back to the Stone Age,
but cannot provide one whiff of support.
Melton (1989), upon whom Lews and Newton
both rely, has:
1257 Brotherhood of the Ram (Blythe)
"early 1960s into the 1970s"
1258 Church of Satan (LaVey)
"...April 30... 1966[-present]"
1259 Church of Satanic Brotherhood (West/De Haven)
"March 1973 [to] 1974"
1260 Order of the Black Ram ('Rev. Seth Klippoth')
n.d.; Detroit, MI
1261 Ordo Templi Satanas (Clifford Amos/Joseph Daniels)
n.d.; associated with 1259 above, "lasted a few years"
1262 Our Lady of Endor Coven (Herbert Arthur Sloane)
"1948[!]... dissolved ... in the early 1980s"
1263 Temple of Set (Michael Aquino +)
"1975[-present]"
1264 Thee Satanic Church (Dr. Evelyn Paglini)
"1974 [to 1980?]"; fostered after 1265 below
1265 Thee Satanic Orthodox Church of Nethilium Rite (Terry Taylor)
"...went public in 1971 [to ?]"
------------------------------------------------
-- J. Gordon Melton, "Encyclopedia of American
Religions: a Comprehensive Study of the Major
Religious Groups in the United States",
Triumph Books, 1989; ISBN 0-8007-3025-9,
0-8007-3026-78, 0-8007-3027-5.
=================================================
neither Lewis or Newton bother to analyze the detail on
Melton's entries. they fail to note that little to no
corroboration is provided for claims about origins.
neither is Blythe's name mentioned nor is Sloane's
contention that his childhood experience that
supposedly established the beginning of his
coven isn't explained as initiating anythng social.
there are too many details left out, and the books
which Sloane mentions (Murray's, Jonas') had quite
significant republications in the late 60s/early 70s.
both of these instances could have been post-LaVeyan.
>>> but the COS is not.
>>
>> absolutely. CoS is atheist, they try to
>> maintain. I don't think that they screen
>> for specific belief litmus, so i doubt
>> that they say more than what is their
>> official doctrine set, which isn't
>> required of membership to my knowledge.
the CoS didn't initially *bill themselves*
as atheists. this was a slow evolution as
theists such as Michael Aquino and others
vacated from the organization. LaVeyan
philosophy was ambiguous on this point in
its notion of 'atheism' and its hardening.
it was opposed to the Christian God and it
sought to recognize Satan as a 'natural
principle (of darkness)' but not as a god.
that (god) was reserved for "the Satanist"
and was often claimed as the focus of worship
(though how this worship was supposed to be
carried out was conveniently overlooked
except possibly as a mere function of
indulgence; seldom the focus of attention
in writings within the church to my knowledge).
>>> Recently former Temple of Set High Priest Don Webb has
>>> stated in his blog at http://edred.net/community/
>>> that his Temple is also theistic satanism ...
>>
>> that is amusing!! thanks, one for the files! ;)
>>
>> I can see that they were theistic -- that's obvious. but
>> that they are (now?) Satanists is extremely funny. I've
>> always known that a portion of them identified as such.
>> to a certain extent the Temple of Set has always attracted
>> some portion of Satanists trying to be more than
>> anti-Christian atheists, a kind of hermetic strain.
> The TOS goes in cycles. When they appeared in the
> 1970s, they were an apocalyptic new agey cult with
> strong survivalist overtones (for realz). At some
> point before I discovered them, there was the 'COS
> does not exist' campaign because LaVey had rejected
> the infernal bandaid (ie, mandate) yadda yadda yadda.
> Parallel to this, Aquino had been sending out feelers
> to several magical/thelemic/LHP working groups and
> known individuals announcing himself as 'the second
> beast' and offering them the opportunity to be
> assimilated. At some point during the 90s
> (I believe during Don Webb's HP term) gradually
> the existence of the COS was acknowldged, and the
> TOS distanced itself from identifying with Satanism
> other than as a subject for study AND a founding
> influence on the early TOS.
all this makes sense. their signing on as theistic
Satanists is likely after Vera promoted it and
popularized it. it may be that they didn't want
to identify as Satanists as long as the CoS was
setting the standards of terminology and noted
that they were 'atheists'.
> There were other facades [erected], used for a
> while and then dropped. And so the wheel turns.
> Could be natural growth, could be something else.
> I haven't a clue...
your reflections are valuable.
>>> -- after the TOS spent the last decade or so
>>> stating their group was not satanic:
>>
>> I remember Aquino doing that, he is a Setian. the old
>> switcheroo was only somewhat convincing, however. the
>> Church of Azazel, the Yezidi freaks and the alien god
>> Joy of Satan nazis all do something similar. some of
>> them acknowledge/claim they are Satanists, some of
>> them say that they are 'not really'. it varies and
>> likely depends upon how they define the term.
>
> Maybe some believe the current political climate
> is more favorable to open Satanism.
yes, i would say so now that the SRA (Satanic Panic)
has died down in the wake of authority investigation.
don't forget that Aquinos got tied up in the SRA
panic rather directly (1986-7 Presidio Child
Development Center daycare allegations). there were
recriminations about LaVey effectively letting
Aquino and Co. hang out to dry, and the actuality
seems to be that there were no alliances within
the Satanic community whatever, perhaps with the
occasional exceptions of family ties (LaVeyan).
>>> ...Webb mentions that he, and the Temple,
>>> are Satanists more than once AND a lot of his
>>> contrasts between Satanism and Christianity
>>> pretty much lump the beliefs and aims of
>>> Blackwood's group in with the Christians.
it is very odd that he would bother to pay any
attention to Blackwood *unless* there was some
kind of serious competition there. you offer a
good explanation:
>>> I am wondering if this latest Temple of Set
>>> image shift is rooted partly in the sad
>>> circumstance that they share an abbreviation
>>> (TOS) with Blackwood's group?
absolutely, that fits with his interest in owning
netspace for 'Church of Theistic Satanism' too.
> Wasn't Webb a drugged-out gamer geek who got
> into the occult to extend a fantasy life into
> the consensus reality? There are thousands of
> people in my generation that fit that profile.
that's amusing. apparently you don't think of
him as a reliable source then? :)
> Which, of course, I do not. I've never been
> into the drugs thing, never been a gamer of
> any type, or viewed occultism as separate
> from the consensus realty. Quite the contrary.
this is somewhat set about with extremities of
contention. there is a zone in between wherein
i might fit nicely.
>>>>> In my opinion (and that's all it is) I
>>>>> doubt that Gilmore or any COS higher ups
>>>>> want to recruit Blackwood's followers
>>>>> to their org.
>>> ...And probably the COS does their very
>>> best to maximize all distance. I would.
agreed. I never meant to suggest this, should
you have picked this up from something i wrote
on the idea of 'orthodoxy'. see above.
>>>>> I think there may be some competition
>>>>> for Black Poop among non-COS Satanists,
>>>>> and I don't mean the Theistics,
>>>>> like Diane Vera.
yet Blackwood is trying to position himself
(or struggle with) the theistics. perhaps he
is just competing with the lot of them in a
variety of ways inclusive of doctrinally and
extension into the past. that would be quite
common activity amongst Satanians.
>>>> ...I think this is remarkable due to the
>>>> lengths to which the CoS has gone to
>>>> mimic the Roman Catholic Church. it may
>>>> be that they have also sought to eclipse the
>>>> 'pope' moniker. I know that the Discordians
>>>> have done this.
>>
>>> I wrote my comment above before reading Webb's blog entry,
>>> and now I have something to give an identity to my hunch.
>>> As it turned out, the Black Pope/Poop competition really
>>> doesn't signify. Too bad, 'cause it's so funny!
I don't know what 'really doesn't signify' here means.
>>>>> Definitely I see Blackwood in that light;
>>>>> only Blackwood keeps coming back for more,
>>>>> sounding crazier all the time IMO.
>>>>> I'm not a Satanist, but Blackwood's public behavior
>>>>> concerns me because of his practice of drinking the
>>>>> blood of sickly goats.
>>>>
>>>> some associate with controversy to tweak others and
>>>> all that you can be sure is that they like to try
>>>> to squick people with their perverse rhetoric. did
>>>> you actually SEE this practice?
>>
>>> No! I'd be happy to discover it's all a pose for
>>> shock....
>>
>> there's a trend that started, to my knowledge, with the ONA,
>> transverse to the CoS and LaVey and its law-abidingness. they
>> explain how they "really do" kill people, not just with symbols,
>> and they identify this as sacrifice, or 'culling', etc. proto-
>> Satanists like Crowley did the same thing (he did in his 'Magick
>> in Theory and Practice', Part Three of Liber ABA, Book Four,
>> "Magick"; he talked about 'sacrificing children' as a metaphor
>> for masturbation).
>
> But drinking the blood of a sick animal has issues for the
> individual beyond the ethical or moral or criminal or
> whatever. It's just plain stoopid. ....
as i have mentioned elsewhere, Crowley and Ozzy did it too.
>>> ...Blackwood's voice blog here:
>>> http://www.snapvine.com/bp/HLXvcHsOEd6xPgAwSFxw7A
that's the 240th vlog in a series. here's
transcription from it:
"...I do help the law enforcement
officials quite often on occult
investigations. And they are very
aware of sacrificial rites that I
have done, because i have performed
them in a humane way...."
"I've been around since 2000. Most
of my members have been around
since 2000, 2001...."
"I actually live in Chicago. ...
I have a residence in Chicago,
I have a mailing address in Michigan
and a mailing address in Chicago...."
he talks about the Shelby Township Police
because that's the identity of the spoofed
phone call that he received (apparently due
to his having a mailing address in MI). he
he says that he lives in Chicago (Illinois) so
therefore the law enforcement officials that
would presumably know about him would be that
of the Chicago police. his address in Chicago is
now in:
http://www.snapvine.com/bp/NKEIwH30Ed6NJwAwSFxw7A
he says, contrasting the ONA human sacrifices (243rd):
"... and for them, in the ONA, to claim
that me sacrificing animals versus
sacrificing people is a sign of weakness
is so contradictorary [sic], because if
they are truly sacrificing people, which
they claim, then they need to go to
prison. We replaced humans with animals.
There's a reason for such. We destroy
the carcasses afterwards, so that way
there's no legal ramifications."
more info about and from Blackwood can be found at:
http://blackwood666.wordpress.com/
http://www.snapvine.com/blog/show/942a96121f7c11dd835e0030485c72b2
http://realsatanism.ning.com
http://www.templesofsatan.com/
http://churchofsatanism.ning.com
http://knol.google.com/k/tom-raspotnik/-/189yvl4xrz2sy/0#
http://www.free-press-release.com/news/200812/1230324250.html
http://www.churchofsatanism.org/
he gives his phone number in multiple locations. he
takes phone calls apparently and likes blogs/vlogs.
he explains his background in Vlog 242:
* prior to 1994 Blackwood was in the CoS
* 1994 established Worldwide Order of
Satanists with him and a number of
people apparently including his
partner Grand Mage Wynter
transitional archive
http://web.archive.org/web/20040605200617/www.realsatanism.com/clergy.htm
* 2000 established Temples of Satan with
his former partner Wynter
Vlog describing his background
-- http://www.snapvine.com/bp/yueIqHunEd6mSAAwSFxyrg
he talks about his "links" (conceptual, fantasy)
to 'traditional' Satanist(s), but these are not
supported by his rhetoric. his archive.org doesn't
appear to establish his 2000 transition to ToS,
these pages appearing in 2001?
now he signs himself as:
Grand Magister Blackwood
Founder Temples of Satan
Founder Church of Theistic Satanism
http://darkimperium.wordpress.com/category/satanic-critiques/
identifies him as Tom Erik Raspotnik. searching on this
string primarily reveals someone within 'ONA' contexts
seeking to identify Blackwood with the name. yet this:
http://blackwood666.livejournal.com/tag/grand+magister+blackwood
and with additional searches it is very obviously confirmed
that his social name is Tom Raspotnik. he isn't hiding this,
as he did an interview with the Detroit Metro Times in which
he gives both street and initiate names.
>> I'll give it a listen soon. lately i've been analyzing
>> and transcribing the CoS Video Interview disc.
I'm tired of slogging through these, Kori. I have waded
backwards from his latest 244 back to 235 and he's too
tedious for words. a pseudo-intellectual trying to rally
people against pseudo-intellectuals! I'll consider doing
this another day.
>>> There are hundreds of these voice entries without
>>> any titles, so finding the one where he boasts
>>> about killing only sickly goats would be quite
>>> a project to find. Should have made a
>>> note of the date, but didn't.
that would have been very helpful! ;) maybe we can
ask Blackwood himself.
>> better than killing only vibrant strong goats?
>> sounds like a wolf/vampire motif.
> Interesting point of view, thanks.
I saw no vampire/wolf motifs in his expression,
primarily an obsession with the ONA 'opfer'.
>>> And if you didn't do such a stoopid thing, I consider it
>>> irresponsible for a purported leader of Satanism
>>> (ie, Blackwood) to mislead people about the his
>>> method of 'sacrifice' or whatever.
>>
>> like i said, the ONA did that for years and to my knowledge
>> that was all just writings from Anton Long and friends. more
>> recently this was 'revived' and there's a host of Satanians
>> who are hot on the notion of 'humane animal sacrifice' which
>> sometimes includes drinking blood ...of the victims.
I pegged Blackwood. he's massively obsessed with the ONA
text, from what i can tell, and pretended to be ONA for
some time prior to 'coming out' as fake.
> ...Paul Valentine (what an arse!) shared a website,
> I recall, with someone who was interested in human
> blood drinking. Had suggestions for trying to keep
> your partner out of the ER (and you out of jail)
> for being clumsy with a scalpel.
that's interesting. did you know that Blackwood and PDV
both were formerly members of the CoS and that both of
them both had 'Worldwide' Satanic orgs? perhaps there
is more to this than meets the eye.
>>>>> I realize that animal sacrifice is part of the traditional
>>>>> past of all humans, but it seems to me that if someone felt
>>>>> a serious religious need to follow this tradition they would
>>>>> not be voice blogging about it.
>>>>
>>>> reasonable. there are lots of Satanists pushing for all kinds
>>>> of ridiculous things which are at points merely anti-Christian
>>>> and at points things whch Christians don't like about other
>>>> religions that Satanists want to expand their envelopes into.
>>>> I think we should be focussing on a narrow band (torture and
>>>> waste of food) and not focussing on what some religious do
>>>> and what others do not.
>>>
>>> Agreed! Our pre-monotheistic ancestors respected Life,
>>> mostly took what they needed for their nourishment
>>> (physical and spiritual). Not perfectly benign or
>>> Goodie-Goodie, but not show business horror, either.
>>
>> agreed. they didn't always have the greenest practices or
>> outlook, but more often than not they seem to have had an
>> abiding respect for the animal in question.
>
> Brutality is not healthy for the victim or the perpetrator.
I do NOT get the sense from what i have seen and heard
today from GM Blackwood / Tom Raspotnik that he has any
interest in ecology or respecting the animal slain, so
much as avoiding detection by possibly interested
authorities (see above) and obsession with the ONA.
VenusSatanas
I've been watching the conversation and I would like to add a few
things to this discussion about tom raspotnik [aka, GM Blackwood].
What interests me is GM's ideas about sacrifice.
From the Temples of Satan Q&A file.
http://www.templesofsatan.com/Q_and_A.pdf
"Q. When was the Temples of Satan founded?
A. The Temples of Satan was founded in 2000 and in 2009 became the
first legal Theistic Satanic Church, unlike most organization which
rely on Universal Life Church ordainments. The Church of Theistic
Satanism is a project of The Temples of Satan and shares the abilities
to ordain legally Priests and Priestesses, for a fee.
Q. How does the Temples of Satan view other groups?
A. We only recognize legal Satanic Churches as valid organizations we
do cooperate with Diane Vera's groups due in part to her contribution
to Theistic Satanism.
Q. Do you sacrifice people or animals?
A. We believe that most “quote-unquote” Satanic Organizations are
spawned in the minds of people who are not strong of mind we are and
we do condone animal sacrifice, provided you do it without cruel
intentions to torture, we also understand the criminal aspect of
killing human and do not recommend such behaviors however do feel as
Satanist's we are “Supreme Rulers” or the Earth sharing its content
with Satan and serving him, so we deem it acceptable to kill if for
ones safety. We are strong advocates for the Constitution and honor
the rights it provides.
We do also think that being a Satanist requires more than a desire to
be evil or be the “center of attention” we think it requires the
ability to kill if required for ones revenge and or betterment of the
deity however due to laws we can only support the concept and not
condone the act. In rituals we do supplement the use of human by using
a goat acquired and used completely by the ritual."
***Temples of Satan webpages at www.realsatanism.com were not in
existence until late 2001 when the groups name was changed to the
temples of Satan. This fact seems to be in conflict with the claim
that the temples of satan were founded in 2000.
I know for certain that Diane Vera does not condone sacrifices. She
supports the legal right for others to do so but she does not claim to
do this practice, herself. She says this at her website.
Blackwood says here that sacrifices should be done 'without the cruel
intent to torture', but what does that mean? He doesn't explain how
this is done or what it really means in his view. He doesn't explain
how he does this sacrifice, what tools he uses, and how the animal is
consumed after ritual. He also does not explain why this practice is
necessary, or what it achieves, or why it is sacred..
More Sacrificial Statements:
http://blackwood666.wordpress.com/about/dangerous-days-ahead-satanic-priest-recieves-message-from-satan-again/
blackwood blog press about 'slain goat'
"His [Satan's] image came to Satanic Priests in a circle that was used
along with several icons of power including a slain goat, this message
was interpreted by Grand Magister Blackwood a famous Satanic
Conservative and Satanic Priest."
http://blackwood666.wordpress.com/2008/07/13/temples-of-satan-sacrafice/
"I have never personally had to slay a person, however many of goat
and sheep have been slain to perform various rituals to The Lord and
Master Satan."
Satanism, Sacrifice and Crime
http://grandmagisterblackwood.wordpress.com/2009/08/02/satanism-sacrifice-and-crime/
This was the most revealing item of all, on the topic of sacrifice.
When i read this i began to understand his ideas on why he feels
satanists should sacrifice. What i got from reading this was that
Blackwood actually condones criminal activity in this blog post,
saying that Satanists should live a criminal life but they should do
it in a smart way, without being caught.
From this blog post, Satanism, Sacrifice, and Crime:
"Furthermore, this ‘realness’ is important – genuine Satanists involve
themselves with the real world, in real situations with real people
and real danger. The imitation Satanists play mental and intellectual
and ’safe’ games. The difference is that a real Satanist will actually
be an assassin, for example, while the imitation Satanist will dream
of being one and will probably obtain a moronic pleasure from watching
some fictional story and ‘identifying’ with a fictionalized assassin –
or, more likely, will `act out’ such a role in some pathetic pseudo-
magickal ceremony and believe he/she has attained something."
Most interesting! In the temple of satanism Q&A file he says that
"we think it requires the ability to kill if required for ones revenge
and or betterment of the deity however due to laws we can only support
the concept and not condone the act."
and in this later posting at his wordpress blog:
"The imitation Satanists play mental and intellectual and ’safe’
games".. "a real Satanist will actually be an assassin.."
His christian roots are showing through. In the satanic panic era,
wasn't it a common misconception that satanists were criminals, animal
killers and murderers? At Blackwood's blog, he suggests that a 'real
satanist' should live a life of crime and murder and sacrifice.
Here is another Blackwood's Blogs to add to nocTifer's list
'blackwood666'
http://blackwood666.xanga.com
Venus
KoriHoughton
> Greetings
> I've been watching the conversation and I would like to add a few
> things to this discussion about tom raspotnik [aka, GM Blackwood].
> What interests me is GM's ideas about sacrifice.
>
> existence until late 2001 when the groups name was changed to the
> temples of Satan. This fact seems to be in conflict with the claim
> that the temples of satan were founded in 2000.
>
> I know for certain that Diane Vera does not condone sacrifices. She
> supports the legal right for others to do so but she does not claim to
> do this practice, herself. She says this at her website.
>
> Blackwood says here that sacrifices should be done 'without the cruel
> intent to torture', but what does that mean? He doesn't explain how
> this is done or what it really means in his view. He doesn't explain
> how he does this sacrifice, what tools he uses, and how the animal is
> consumed after ritual. He also does not explain why this practice is
> necessary, or what it achieves, or why it is sacred..
>
> More Sacrificial Statements:
>
> blackwood blog press about 'slain goat'
>
> "His [Satan's] image came to Satanic Priests in a circle that was used
> along with several icons of power including a slain goat, this message
> was interpreted by Grand Magister Blackwood a famous Satanic
> Conservative and Satanic Priest."
>
> http://blackwood666.wordpress.com/2008/07/13/temples-of-satan-sacrafice/
> "I have never personally had to slay a person, however many of goat
> and sheep have been slain to perform various rituals to The Lord and
> Master Satan."
>
Thanks, Venus!
These links support a lot of what Blackwood says in his voice blogs.
Have you ever seen the documentation for Blackwood being denied
Priesthood in the Church of Satan because he was deemed 'too
fanatical' by LaVey, or something to that effect? Blackwood has
promised to make a letter about this public, but I've yet to see it.
I think it would be very helpful in understanding more about the
development of Blackwood's brand of Satanism.
Luv,
Kori
565
> On Aug 1, 1:57 pm, nagasiva <yronwode.org@nagasiva> wrote:
>
> > E6
>
> > KoriHoughton <korihough...@gmail.com>:
>
> > >>> There must be some reason why
> > >>> so many occultists have also been spooks...because they are comfy with
> > >>> the 'facts' about their personal lives, their actions and their
> > >>> motivations being mostly legendary.
>
> > dictionary.com:
> > spook: 2. Slang A secret agent; a spy.
>
> Hi, nagasiva! Yes, this is a pretty standard simple definition.
> However, I am going to complicate things a bit now, by stating that I
> think a lot of occultist-spooks were not James Bond with magick
> powers,
Robert Bruce ( www.astraldynamics.com ) in his book "Practical Psychic
Self Defense" claims to be able to go OOBE and to enter other humans
as a kind of ghost and sift through their memories for information and
also to slightly influence their actions as though he is partially
possessing them. He says he only did this for research. He is one of
the few who have spoke about this openly, most others keep silent.
Absorbed
THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOUR BRAIN.
KoriHoughton
> On Aug 1, 11:35 pm, KoriHoughton <korihough...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 1, 1:57 pm, nagasiva <yronwode.org@nagasiva> wrote:
>
> > > E6
>
> > > KoriHoughton <korihough...@gmail.com>:
>
> > > >>> There must be some reason why
> > > >>> so many occultists have also been spooks...because they are comfy with
> > > >>> the 'facts' about their personal lives, their actions and their
> > > >>> motivations being mostly legendary.
>
> > > dictionary.com:
> > > spook: 2. Slang A secret agent; a spy.
>
> > Hi, nagasiva! Yes, this is a pretty standard simple definition.
> > However, I am going to complicate things a bit now, by stating that I
> > think a lot of occultist-spooks were not James Bond with magick
> > powers,
>
> Self Defense" claims to be able to go OOBE and to enter other humans
> as a kind of ghost and sift through their memories for information and
> also to slightly influence their actions as though he is partially
> possessing them. He says he only did this for research. He is one of
> the few who have spoke about this openly, most others keep silent.
Who are the 'others' who keep silent? I mean, how do you know about
them if they don't talk about their (ahem) ablilities? LMAO
Mr. Bruce sounds a bit (not the same) like some occultnik lore I read
from Don Webb. I see both Bruce and Webb offer their teachings to the
public for a price. Be the first on your block?
Seriously, I rate this kind of claim with the Catch-WooWoo (cf
Catch-22): if someone is stoopid enough to make this kind of a claim
on the internet, obviously they don't have the power as claimed.
Maybe Mr. Bruce would like to purchase my copy of the uber-seekrit
BOOK OF ZONKS?
Luv,
Kori
VenusSatanas
Kori, we all would love to see info like this. Surprised he doesn't
use his letter as a badge of honor or something.
nocTifer and I looked up the tax exempt information at the IRS site
where the info is available for public viewing.. and the TOS is not
listed, anywhere in the tax exempt org lists. Therefore the TOS is not
a 'legal tax exempt organization' .. So funny!!
Venus
KoriHoughton
Hi, Venus! Actually he voice blogs about his rejection by LaVey as if
it was an honor, but so far no proof to the general public (people
like me) that he ever had any contact at all with LaVey or the COS.
Maybe the tax exemption is for the Church of Theistic Satanism or
whatever he calls the religious part of the Temples of Satan. It may
not be under his name. Or he might just be full of blustery hot air.
Dunno.
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
be occultists. It's to do with knowing and keeping secrets, acquiring
and using hidden knowledge and the satisfaction of being part of
something "big and powerful". Also more interesting than working in an
insurance company.
Also some intelligence services use infiltration of "secret societies"
as training grounds for their agents. The benefit is that if they get
caught they don't get their head cut off and shown on the Net.
FFF
Dirk
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.theconsensus.org/ - A UK political party
http://www.onetribe.me.uk/wordpress/?cat=5 - Our podcasts on weird stuff
KoriHoughton
wrote:
> The kind of people who want to be spies are the same types who want to
> be occultists.
Not necessarily. The spy career description often involves pretending
to be someone you are not, or tricking/coercing others into revealing
impersonal information. An occultist, on the other hand, is seeking
information to enable them to better know and understand themselves.
The so-called 'hidden knowledge' is actually quite useless to someone
without the background (as in initiatic experience) to interpret it.
> It's to do with knowing and keeping secrets,
Yeah? Well, I think it's messed up to keep secrets from youself.
> acquiring
> and using hidden knowledge
Yes. Finding stuff out about yourself, and using what you've learned
to learn more, and do more, with what you have.
> and the satisfaction of being part of
> something "big and powerful".
Ah, right. The 'big and powerful' secret society of Me, Myself and
I.
> Also more interesting than working in an
> insurance company.
Actually, insurance companies (all kinds) are often big and powerful,
and collect all sorts of information about their clients. But
insurance companies are a stuffy, conservative, working environment.
I interviewed with one once aeons ago (the early 80s). A woman
interviewed the female applicants, and I was told point blank by this
old bat that I was foolish to be training to change my career to IT --
her company would offer me a clerical position on the spot.
Pffffftttt!
>
> Also some intelligence services use infiltration of "secret societies"
> as training grounds for their agents. The benefit is that if they get
> caught they don't get their head cut off and shown on the Net.
>
> FFF
> Dirk
No one can infiltrate a real occult secret society. Initiates want to
give their knowledge away. The candidate only has to get themselves
to a place where they can use what is being offered to them, which is
somewhere a spy-in-training will not reach.
Luv,
Kori
>
> http://www.transcendence.me.uk/- Transcendence UKhttp://www.theconsensus.org/- A UK political partyhttp://www.onetribe.me.uk/wordpress/?cat=5- Our podcasts on weird stuff
Tom
>
> No one can infiltrate a real occult secret society.
That's because there aren't any occult secret societies. Nobody is
worse at keeping secrets than an occultist.
KoriHoughton
You're right! Their knowledge isn't 'occult' or 'hidden' because
someone is keeping it a secret.
Luv,
Kori
TJ
On Sep 24, 12:49 am, Dirk Bruere at NeoPax <dirk.bru...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> The kind of people who want to be spies are the same types who want to
> be occultists.
Not true. We know about quite a few spies in history, and quite a few
of them right now, recently. In the past, 20s, 30s, Communist spies
were idealists, real believers in a system that they thought would be
better. Capitalism was a failure at the time (heh, still is,
harumph). So.
Next, we know about spies that did it for money - they got caught.
Recently, Israeli spies, or Jews spying for Isreal, have been caught
by the FBI - and even within the FBI. And I'll bet that the FBI is
pretty pissed that they are being let loose.
In examples in paragraphs 1 and 3, the spies really HATED America and
everything it stood for - despite their being citizens of this
country. One might say that they pretend to be good Americans - but
imo, only a moron with no street savvy would believe that.
These are not the same types of people that want to be occultists.
And not all occultists are the same. Some want to learn secret things
(not apparent things) for power of some kind. Others just want to
know things that lie beneath the reality we all see everyday. The
second type, imo, are scientists. They really find out what is
beneath the reality we see everyday. See why Farraday sought out and
understood electromagmetism. He was a religious Christian, but he
wanted to know HOW God actually made the stuff we see everyday. He
figured it out, too. But nobody ever called Farraday an occultist.
He was. He was a master, imo. Without his understanding and clarity,
we'd not today have technology.
It's to do with knowing and keeping secrets, acquiring
> and using hidden knowledge and the satisfaction of being part of
> something "big and powerful". Also more interesting than working in an
> insurance company.
>
> Also some intelligence services use infiltration of "secret societies"
> as training grounds for their agents. The benefit is that if they get
> caught they don't get their head cut off and shown on the Net.
>
> FFF
> Dirk
>
> http://www.transcendence.me.uk/- Transcendence UKhttp://www.theconsensus.org/- A UK political partyhttp://www.onetribe.me.uk/wordpress/?cat=5- Our podcasts on weird stuff
TJ
> On Sep 24, 4:40 pm, Tom <danto...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > On Sep 24, 1:43 am, KoriHoughton <korihough...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > No one can infiltrate a real occult secret society.
>
> > That's because there aren't any occult secret societies. Nobody is
> > worse at keeping secrets than an occultist.
Think: the atomic bomb. That secret got out fast enough.
>
> You're right! Their knowledge isn't 'occult' or 'hidden' because
> someone is keeping it a secret.
How to make an atomic bomb IS hidden, not apparent - it involves a
"realer" reality that underlies the big reality we see everyday.
I.e., you can't just SEE atoms. You don't see that the desk is made
of atoms, held together by electromagnetism. You see the desk is made
of wood and held together by glue and nails or screws. First, someone
has to have the intuition that there IS such a thing. Next, one has
to figure out how to SEE these things (atoms). Then someone gets
other ideas and well - welcome to the nuke age where we can now all
blow each other to pieces. Lol. Black magic?
>
> Luv,
> Kori