Reversal Value in Tarot
nagasiva
#># ...if, among all the traditional symbols you choose to accept,
#># you choose to use the pictures on the cards [to] develop
#># "insight" you may as well use the reversals in your "insight."
one might also shuffle the deck and occasionally invert one side
so that cards are "face up" and "face down" for yet another
dimension (up --> coming toward the Querent; down --> going away).
by that logic (you might as well).
#># If you find the latter arbitrary and don't use it, throw
#># the deck out. The whole thing is arbitrary in that case.
Tom:
#> The whole thing *is* arbitrary in all cases. I keep telling
#> you, there are no fixed meanings to any of this.
there are some traditional 'currents' or tendencies based at
least in part on symbolism and its cultural meanining through
time. you're of course correct that "fixed" meanings are not
to be found, in part because meaning is attributed in mind,
rather than in symbol. one might ask whether there is any
fixed meaning in anything whatever at any time (examples?).
#># If insight is what you seek, perhaps deeper insight
#># is possible with an extra dimension of divination.
how *many* added dimensions would be valuable but not too
distracting? should we roll dice or somehow choose amongst
several decks, then shuffle and cut them with eyes closed,
flip through a book of layouts to generate one randomly,
and then lay out cards and see whether they are face-up,
face-down, upright, reversed, etc., *before* even beginning
to consider how they relate the cards around them and to
the defined significance of their layout position in a
response to the Querents issue/query? what is "too deep"?
#> Insight is only a different frame of reference.
insight refers to depth of understanding or intuitive
apprehension of the unknown.
#> It can be useful or it can be useless. There is no
#> guarantee that anything you learn by laying out tarot
#> cards will be useful or true....
so how do we make this happen? it probably helps many to
surround the whole in ritual, trance-states, incense,
and specialized ceremonial extracting a glorified deck
from the Sacred Box, then consulting with the awesome
and respected Oracle.
smoking fox <nos...@sorry.com>:
# reversing cards does not provide extra insight.
it does add a dimension of significance. why this might
not broaden a commentary from the Oracle is beyond me.
# there are plenty of negative cards in the tarot.
arguably false. almost every instance of conventionally
"negative" cards are provided explanation ameliorating
the caustic or 'bad' repercussion of the conventional
understanding. the best and most hotly disputed of the
possible examples is the Trump "Death", which is often
described as "not really physical human death", although
some of us have enjoyed arguing to the contrary.
some of the Small cards (numbers, often 5s -- the GD had
W-Strife/S-Defeat/Cu-Loss_in_Pleasure/Co-Material_Trouble
for example) are less easy to explain away as 'really not
that bad or not about negative effects/outcomes. some of
it does depend upon the person perceiving the resultant
cards and layout, but as with cartomancy decks there are
numerous Tarots which feature very nasty cards and some
authors do provide significances for reversals, possibly
turning some of the negative cards into more positive
ones (*or* emphasizing the negative!).
as I understand it, this is the real issue. does reversal
invert the character of the card so reversed? or does it
emphasize a negative aspect of the card? if the latter,
then "Death-Reversed" would be really truly bad, as would
"War-Reversed".
# skill and knowledge of how to read your cards are more
# effective.
there is no necessary restriction from reversals provided
skill and knowledge. arguably the dimensionality of new
and complex valence to card layout enhances knowledge by
its added depth.
# reversing cards also reverses the bad cards, reversed
# bad cards are good cards again, so there is no difference.
your dogma, and a popular notion. some will invert 'bad'
cards as magical acts. hanging the Devil up inverted may
be a manner of punishing the wicked spirit for transgression.
y
r B
o l b
n e e
w s a
o s s
d e t
e d !
.com@nagasiva
Tom
"nagasiva" <yronwode.com@nagasiva> wrote in message
news:ck2Zd.10629$m31.1...@typhoon.sonic.net...
>
> Tom:
> #> The whole thing *is* arbitrary in all cases. I keep telling
> #> you, there are no fixed meanings to any of this.
>
> there are some traditional 'currents' or tendencies based at
> least in part on symbolism and its cultural meanining through
> time.
The symbolism of the Tarot is not fixed, either. It has been tinkered with
by virtually every card designer. That's why no two published decks are
alike. Nor is there any standard meaning to Tarot symbolism in any culture.
There might be within a particularly closed-minded cult, though.
> you're of course correct that "fixed" meanings are not
> to be found, in part because meaning is attributed in mind,
> rather than in symbol. one might ask whether there is any
> fixed meaning in anything whatever at any time (examples?).
The periodic table?
> #> Insight is only a different frame of reference.
>
> insight refers to depth of understanding or intuitive
> apprehension of the unknown.
Like I said, a different frame of reference.
> #> It can be useful or it can be useless. There is no
> #> guarantee that anything you learn by laying out tarot
> #> cards will be useful or true....
>
> so how do we make this happen?
Make what happen? A guarantee of usefulness or truth? Are you serious?
> it probably helps many to
> surround the whole in ritual, trance-states, incense,
> and specialized ceremonial extracting a glorified deck
> from the Sacred Box, then consulting with the awesome
> and respected Oracle.
This is an example of magic as the manipulation of belief.
nagasiva
#>#> The whole thing *is* arbitrary in all cases. ...
#>#> there are no fixed meanings to any of this.
nagasiva:
#> there are some traditional 'currents' or tendencies based at
#> least in part on symbolism and its cultural meaning through time.
"Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net>:
# The symbolism of the Tarot is not fixed, either. It has been tinkered with
# by virtually every card designer. That's why no two published decks are
# alike. Nor is there any standard meaning to Tarot symbolism in any culture.
# There might be within a particularly closed-minded cult, though.
'fixed' is an extreme which the category 'two published decks' abrogates.
#> you're of course correct that "fixed" meanings are not
#> to be found, in part because meaning is attributed in mind,
#> rather than in symbol. one might ask whether there is any
#> fixed meaning in anything whatever at any time (examples?).
#
# The periodic table?
even that isn't fix through time. a search on Google graphics
for periodic tables allows variation in composition and content.
Buddhists maintain that nothing is fixed, and that everything
is mutually co-arising, and for good reason. even the Pole Star
and other supposedly "fixed" objects shift at wide periods.
#>#> Insight is only a different frame of reference.
#>
#> insight refers to depth of understanding or intuitive
#> apprehension of the unknown.
#
# Like I said, a different frame of reference.
what frames of reference apply to an intuitive apprehension
of the unknown?
#>#> It can be useful or it can be useless. There is no
#>#> guarantee that anything you learn by laying out tarot
#>#> cards will be useful or true....
#>
#> so how do we make this happen?
#
# Make what happen? ...
make what is learned be useful or true. i.e. without any
kind of guarantees, what are good methods to shift toward
usefulness or truth in what is learned?
nagasiva