Masturbation & Meditation
Savannah & Chase
meditation incorporating masturbation?
Thanks,
Chase
Dharmadeva
"Savannah & Chase" <Souther...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:24511-397...@storefull-141.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Savannah & Chase
meditation incorporating intercourse, leading to altered states and
Nirvana. Certainly there has to be other forms (Eastern and Western)
using masturbation.
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Luis Castillo
Anyone that has ever practice the Sahaja Maithuna or Sexual Yoga, knows that
this sacred practice has nothing to do with masturbation. What is next? That
Sexual Magic can be done in a homosexual relation?
Luis
charlie
Yes there is, but I can't say where you'd find the info if you already have
looked around and found nothing to suit you. Not something to rush into
before you've done the groundwork. If you take the basics of tantra and work
with them for at least several months (can't say really - it's a length of a
piece of string thing), you will probably find you are able to begin slowly
stimulating your genitals within your practice and experience what happens.
Best to contact a good teacher though for psychic safety.
One word of warning though, if you visit someone who offers to help you with
this be VERY careful! A friend of mine recently visited a well known teacher
(Kris Larthe - not a flame just a deserved outing...) of tantra in London
http://www.healing-tao.co.uk/ ) who offered to help her experience tantra.
After guiding her into a meditative state he soon moved her onto
masturbation (to her surprise), he masturbated too, and then came
penetration, with no protection. No discussion took place, he led, she
trusted and he abused that trust. She's still sweating on what she may have
caught. Tantamount to drug rape IMO.
charlie
Savannah & Chase <Souther...@webtv.net> wrote in message
charlie
the rest of the site too http://www.kundalini-tantra.com/mathuna.html
before you start on that section!
Papaj418
>"Savannah & Chase" <Souther...@webtv.net> wrote
>> How can it be "silly nonsense?" Rituals such as the Maithuna exist as
>> meditation incorporating intercourse, leading to altered states and
>> Nirvana. Certainly there has to be other forms (Eastern and Western)
>> using masturbation.
>Anyone that has ever practice the Sahaja Maithuna or Sexual Yoga, knows that
>this sacred practice has nothing to do with masturbation. What is next? That
>Sexual Magic can be done in a homosexual relation?
Actually, in western sex magick the
practices of masturbation *and*
homosexual relationship are very nicely
covered. Can't say I'm up on them, but
Crowley and Culling at least have covered
both to some extent. Tantra, with which I
am far less familiar however, may not admit
the validity of such techniques. If it does
not, I would tend to see that as a failing in
the Tantik system, making it incomplete.
The Tantra purists will, of course, throw a
hissy fit over that last, but hey, this ng is
for *both* tantra and sex magick, and
all opinions are (supposedly) welcome.
Live with it.
Will
Love,
Papa John
Re Oé…¬tat
papa...@aol.com (Papaj418) wrote:
> Luis sed:
> >"Savannah & Chase" <Souther...@webtv.net> wrote
>
> >> How can it be "silly nonsense?" Rituals such as the Maithuna exist as
> >> meditation incorporating intercourse, leading to altered states and
> >> Nirvana. Certainly there has to be other forms (Eastern and Western)
> >> using masturbation.
>
> >Anyone that has ever practice the Sahaja Maithuna or Sexual Yoga, knows
> >that
> >this sacred practice has nothing to do with masturbation. What is next?
> >That
> >Sexual Magic can be done in a homosexual relation?
>
> Actually, in western sex magick the
> practices of masturbation *and*
> homosexual relationship are very nicely
> covered. Can't say I'm up on them, but
> Crowley and Culling at least have covered
> both to some extent.
Where did Culling cover homosexuality?
Re
Marjolein Robbe
What you might find very usefull is the way of the superior lover from David
Deida. He has a chapter in that book concerning mastrubation, mastrubate and
still bypass ejaculation. You can find something on www.deida.com
If you are interested I can share the exercise he gave me personally,
All Love,
Arjan
charlie <sien...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8livlu$m3c$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com...
charlie
souls who go through life without connecting with their reality and so live
in avoidance and spiritual pretence. I'm pleased your so connected with your
journey. Compassion and non-judgement my friend :-)
charlie
Dharmadeva <no...@none.com> wrote in message
news:hgDf5.48215$N4.16...@ozemail.com.au...
Why don't they call prostitution tantra, next pedophiles will be tantric and
so will the selling of lucky charms
"Luis Castillo" <luis...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:lM4f5.3451$kr4....@news2.atl...
>
> "Savannah & Chase" <Souther...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:3526-397...@storefull-142.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> > How can it be "silly nonsense?" Rituals such as the Maithuna exist as
> > meditation incorporating intercourse, leading to altered states and
> > Nirvana. Certainly there has to be other forms (Eastern and Western)
> > using masturbation.
> >
>
> Anyone that has ever practice the Sahaja Maithuna or Sexual Yoga, knows
that
> this sacred practice has nothing to do with masturbation. What is next?
That
> Sexual Magic can be done in a homosexual relation?
>
> Luis
>
>
Dharmadeva
Dharmadeva
so will the selling of lucky charms
"Luis Castillo" <luis...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:lM4f5.3451$kr4....@news2.atl...
>
> "Savannah & Chase" <Souther...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:3526-397...@storefull-142.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> > How can it be "silly nonsense?" Rituals such as the Maithuna exist as
> > meditation incorporating intercourse, leading to altered states and
> > Nirvana. Certainly there has to be other forms (Eastern and Western)
> > using masturbation.
> >
>
Papaj418
>Where did Culling cover homosexuality?
My mistake, you are quite right. Culling
covered masturbation, and in my haste
I lumped it with AC's coverage of both.
Will
Love,
Papa John
Re Oé…¬tat
papa...@aol.com (Papaj418) wrote:
Whew! I thought I had missed something and was looking for more
information.
Re
Dharmadeva
etc
Usual nonsense of new age fanatics
"charlie" <sien...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8lnm0i$65n$1...@neptunium.btinternet.com...
> Hey! We all have our paths to tread and experience. Think of all the lost
> souls who go through life without connecting with their reality and so
live
> in avoidance and spiritual pretence. I'm pleased your so connected with
your
> journey. Compassion and non-judgement my friend :-)
>
> charlie
>
> Dharmadeva <no...@none.com> wrote in message
> news:hgDf5.48215$N4.16...@ozemail.com.au...
charlie
has no idea who they're communicating with, or maybe communicating wasn't
the aim? Why your need to lash out? I'll, unfortunately, miss your reaction
as I'm away for a few weeks, exploring the spirituality of decadence ;-)
charlie - knotted handkie at the ready
Dharmadeva <no...@none.com> wrote in message
news:bwUf5.49744$N4.17...@ozemail.com.au...
Joe Cosby
news:8m2pim$g...@bolt.sonic.net...
> 50000730 Vom
>
> "Luis Castillo" <luis...@bellsouth.net>:
> >What is next?
> >That Sexual Magic can be done in a homosexual relation?
>
> next with regard to what? there are neo-tantric practices that do
> involve heterosexual sex, homosexual sex, and masturbation.
>
> is there something problematic about homosexual relations
> with respect to sexual magic? what about the 11th Degree OTO?
>
OT a little, but one of, in my opinion, the best representations of
ritual magic in a printed work is in William Burrough's "Cities of the
Red Night", where he presents Sexual Magic in a homosexual relation.
The book might be difficult reading for some people; to be honest I
am too homophobic to enjoy it completely, but the episode in question
is early in the book and really brilliantly done.
--
Joe Cosby
Here at Microsoft, drive head contention is more than just our promise
to you.
It's a way of life.
http://joecosby.home.mindspring.com
nagasiva yronwode
Souther...@webtv.net (Savannah & Chase):
>Could somebody help me on this topic. Is there a ritual or guided
>meditation incorporating masturbation?
there are quite a few. many within what is called 'pornography'
which could be adopted for visualizations with intercourse with
the gods. focussed meditation upon a picture of a deity to whom
one is drawn while meditating can be a wonderful experience.
nagasiva
--
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emailed replies may be posted; cc replies if response desired
nagasiva yronwode
"Luis Castillo" <luis...@bellsouth.net>:
>Anyone that has ever practice the Sahaja Maithuna or Sexual Yoga, knows that
>this sacred practice has nothing to do with masturbation.
I've never practiced them. thanks for providing your testimony.
>What is next?
>That Sexual Magic can be done in a homosexual relation?
next with regard to what? there are neo-tantric practices that do
involve heterosexual sex, homosexual sex, and masturbation.
is there something problematic about homosexual relations
with respect to sexual magic? what about the 11th Degree OTO?
nagasiva
nagasiva yronwode
>>Where did Culling cover homosexuality?
papa...@aol.com (Papaj418) writes:
>...Culling covered masturbation, and in my
>haste I lumped it with AC's coverage of both.
where did AC cover both?
Chris
nagasiva yronwode wrote:
>
> 50000730 Vom
>
> "Luis Castillo" <luis...@bellsouth.net>:
> >Anyone that has ever practice the Sahaja Maithuna or Sexual Yoga, knows that
> >this sacred practice has nothing to do with masturbation.
>
> I've never practiced them. thanks for providing your testimony.
>
> >What is next?
> >That Sexual Magic can be done in a homosexual relation?
>
> next with regard to what? there are neo-tantric practices that do
> involve heterosexual sex, homosexual sex, and masturbation.
>
> is there something problematic about homosexual relations
> with respect to sexual magic? what about the 11th Degree OTO?
>
catherine yronwode
>
> nagasiva yronwode wrote:
> >
> > "Luis Castillo" <luis...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > What is next?
> > > That Sexual Magic can be done in a homosexual relation?
> >
> > with respect to sexual magic? what about the 11th Degree OTO?
>
Quick reply -- it is pretty well understood by various folks and held
forth by various writers in print and on usenet that the 11th degree of
the OTO involves -- depending on one's interpretation of Crowley's words
--
anal sex of any kind
[administered to both men and women by men]
[administered by men peniley and by women with dildoes],
exclusively homosexual male anal sex
[no women taking the 11th degree]
taboo-breaking or personally repulsive sex of some or any sort,
[lesbian sex for heterosexual women]
[homosexual anal sex for heterosexual men]
[heterosexual sex for homosexual people of either gender]
[taboo-breaking of any sort, at the whim of participants]
and/or that "the 11th degree doesn't exist
[at all and never did]
[anymore]
[in (c)OTO since William Breeze became head of the order]."
There is a bunch of writing on this subject -- from various conflicting
perspectives -- archived all over the web, so check it out at any of the
good search engines, such as google.com. I know that nagasiva and i have
a lot of material on the OTO and sex magic(k) in general archived at the
Lucky Mojo Esoteric Archive, and if you go to the top level page of the
Esoteric Archive
http://www.luckymojo.com/esoteric.html
and use our on-site search engine with some well-chosen key words, you
ought to be able to turn up whatever information we have on file. I seem
to recall that Josh Geller wrote a straightforward exegesis on the forms
of sex magic associated with each degree of the OTO, and so adding his
name to your key words would help you turn that document up right away.
For instance, i just used the keywords
Josh Geller OTO sex
with the instruction to select "all words" and turned up 4 documents
that looked pretty juicy.
Good luck!
cat yronwode
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Luis Castillo
>
> "Luis Castillo" <luis...@bellsouth.net>:
> >Anyone that has ever practice the Sahaja Maithuna or Sexual Yoga, knows
that
> >this sacred practice has nothing to do with masturbation.
>
> I've never practiced them. thanks for providing your testimony.
>
> >That Sexual Magic can be done in a homosexual relation?
>
> involve heterosexual sex, homosexual sex, and masturbation.
>
> with respect to sexual magic? what about the 11th Degree OTO?
>
Sahaja Maithuna: The sexual practice of creating a new man or woman (in
physical and spiritual level).
The Cosmos is made up of a dynamic harmony of opposites or complementary
forces: night and day, winter and summer, black and white, Man and Woman,
etc.........These forces through the principle of Harmonia, fit together
into the whole.
Man and woman represent the First Dyad of Creation and this Dyad is bridge
through a third factor, the Force of the Holy Spirit, the Sexual Force. That
is the mystery of the Trinity.
Onece again, the practice of Sexual Magic require the two oppsosites forces
and the action of the third one, the sexual force. Can we get light with two
possitive or two negative poles?...............
Peace
Luis
The incredible Sulk
nagasiva yronwode wrote:
> h.
>
> where did AC cover both?
>
When it came to masturbation, AC covered everything.:-)
Chris
magick thing is whats keeping me from doing it. I abhor sex magick, and
want nothing to do with it. Its fine if others do, but not me thanx.
Secondly... the oto is again a secret magical order how would we know
exactly what goes on at that high a level? I mean less is known about
the material of the OTO than the golden dawn. I mean walk into any
Chapters and you can pick up "the golden dawn" where as there is not as
much material about the OTO. It is also known that crowley would "set
traps" for certain people in order to see who was initiated.
There is only a temple of themelma and OTO in my area so Im limitied in
choices....
catherine yronwode wrote:
>
> Chris wrote:
> >
> > nagasiva yronwode wrote:
> > >
> > > "Luis Castillo" <luis...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > What is next?
> > > > That Sexual Magic can be done in a homosexual relation?
> > >
> > > is there something problematic about homosexual relations
> > > with respect to sexual magic? what about the 11th Degree OTO?
> >
Joshua O'Brien
>
> Ok well I was looking into the OTO as a magical group... but the sex
> magick thing is whats keeping me from doing it. I abhor sex magick, and
> want nothing to do with it.
Perhaps you missed the bit where the XI degree was described as
"whatever one personally has the most inhibitions built up against."
> Secondly... the oto is again a secret magical order how would we know
> exactly what goes on at that high a level? I mean less is known about
> the material of the OTO than the golden dawn. I mean walk into any
> Chapters and you can pick up "the golden dawn" where as there is not as
> much material about the OTO. It is also known that crowley would "set
> traps" for certain people in order to see who was initiated.
You're trying to convince yourself that the OTO doesn't practise sex
magick. Why?
> There is only a temple of themelma and OTO in my area so Im limitied in
> choices....
If you're not prepared to move, it can't be all that important, can it?
Re O'Stat
wrote:
> Ok well I was looking into the OTO as a magical group... but the sex
> magick thing is whats keeping me from doing it. I abhor sex magick, and
> want nothing to do with it. Its fine if others do, but not me thanx.
You are very brave to share your deep fears.
Part of the process of working with many magical groups is working
through your emotions and fears so you are free to do the magical work.
What is it that you "abhor" about sex magick?
You posted this to alt.magick.tantra (among others), and in one of the
traditions into which I was initiated the belief that abhorance of
anything is a klesha, a block toward spiritual enlightenment.
Are you looking for something other than enlightenment? Why do you want
to join any group? If you just want a place to party there are may
non-magickal places you could go to and groups you could join.
> Secondly... the oto is again a secret magical order how would we know
> exactly what goes on at that high a level? I mean less is known about
> the material of the OTO than the golden dawn. I mean walk into any
> Chapters and you can pick up "the golden dawn" where as there is not as
> much material about the OTO.
There is probably five or ten times as much material written about the
OTO as there is about the GD. The rules and which books to read are
listed in the "Blue" Equinox, which is still available. For technique
add his "Magick" "The Holy Books" and the complete "Equinox" or "Gems
from the Equinox." Look also at "The Book of Lies," "Liber Aleph" and
"Magick without Tears." There are many other great books (I Like "Konx
Om Pax," for example). You can find other stuff in the (in)famous
"Secret Rituals of the O.T.O." AFAIK, most of this is available on the
internet. Do a search.
> It is also known that crowley would "set
> traps" for certain people in order to see who was initiated.
Yeah, yeah. Anybody with a bit of logic can see through the so-called
"traps" and "blinds." About the only people who fall for it any more are
anti-occultist fundamentalist Christians.
>
> There is only a temple of themelma and OTO in my area so Im limitied in
> choices....
Then you might consider that the mind is like a parachute. It doesn't
work unless it's open.
Re
richard sprigg
>
> The Cosmos is made up of a dynamic harmony of opposites or complementary
> forces: night and day, winter and summer, black and white, Man and Woman,
> etc.........
Man and woman are not opposites, but beings containing a balance of
masculine and feminine.
> These forces through the principle of Harmonia, fit together
> into the whole.
> Man and woman represent the First Dyad of Creation and this Dyad is bridge
> through a third factor, the Force of the Holy Spirit, the Sexual Force.
And explained through dogma.
The harmonizing of opposites is not a dogmatic process, but a dynamic
one.
> That
> is the mystery of the Trinity.
>
> Onece again, the practice of Sexual Magic require the two oppsosites forces
> and the action of the third one, the sexual force. Can we get light with two
> possitive or two negative poles?...............
The polarity of the "poles" is influenced far more by the force invoked
than by the flawed nature of the first matter used.
Situations arise where the current developed by a deliberately
non-viable medium is important.
Whether this is by deliberate inversion, deliberate timing, or by
deliberate selection will depend upon the nature of the operation.
Papaj418
>where did AC cover both?
Since I can't crosspost on aol, my answer,
as you know from alt.magick.tyagi, was
de Arte Magica.
Will
Love,
Papa John
kol...@my-deja.com
sp...@luckymojo.com wrote:
> 50000730 Vom
>
> >>Where did Culling cover homosexuality?
>
> papa...@aol.com (Papaj418) writes:
> >...Culling covered masturbation, and in my
> >haste I lumped it with AC's coverage of both.
>
auto: ??
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Luis Castillo
"richard sprigg" <kt...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:398643...@sympatico.ca...
> Luis Castillo wrote:
> >
>
> > The Cosmos is made up of a dynamic harmony of opposites or complementary
> > forces: night and day, winter and summer, black and white, Man and
Woman,
> > etc.........
>
> Man and woman are not opposites, but beings containing a balance of
> masculine and feminine.
Wow! I am trying to follow you here. Eventhough male and female have sexual
aspects of the other (wich is natural according to the esoteric tradition of
the primitive Hermafrodite of the Genesis and its later sex separation), the
only being containing a balance of masculine and femenine that I know, were
a couple of ladies that I met in the gym, who at that time were taking huge
amounts of steroids in order to build up.
But, definetly, a man is one force and woman the other one. When they are in
the sexual intercouse, right in that moment they form, one more time , the
primitive hermafrodite, with the power of creation a new life (a baby) and
also the power of regenerating themselves through Sexual Magic.
You will never get a newborn through sexual intercouse between two men or
two women. The nature has an order, and the no respect of it, brigns nothing
but misery to our human kind.
Luis
xiwangmu
papa...@aol.com (Papaj418) about sex magic involving homosexuality and masturbation:
>>>...Culling covered masturbation, and in my
>>>haste I lumped it with AC's coverage of both.
mu:
>> where did AC cover both?
>homo: The Secret Garden of Abdullah
http://www.luckymojo.com/crowley/000bimuattar.txt
please do not distribute this file widely, as I have not yet completed
the translation of the Persian into apprehensible English (those who
have the interest in so doing, please contact me privately).
koldoon, could you explain how this document relates to sex magic in
any way, and what one may glean from reading its content that applies
to the subject of homosexual sex magic?
ALSO:
Papa John suggests "de Arte Magica" in another post. PJ, could you
explain what this text has to say about sex magic of any type,
particularly that concerning homosexual sex magic? do you know of
a web site which hosts a copy of this text? URL?
here are some comments about it within the Lucky Mojo Esoteric
Archive:
http://www.luckymojo.com/tantra/neo-tantra/ny199612elixir2.txt
if you're going to bring up the text as support for your assertion,
then let's look it over closely to find out what it really means.
:> mu
Tom Schuler
> > balance of masculine and feminine.
>
> Wow! I am trying to follow you here.
Good heavens. Don't do that.
> But, definetly, a man is one force and woman the other one.
On one side of you is one force, on the other side of you is another.
Pingala/Ida.
Both are you.
> You will never get a newborn through sexual intercouse
> between two men or two women.
But you can get a newborn between one female sheep and a team of geneticists
of random sexes.
> The nature has an order, and the no respect of it, brigns nothing
> but misery to our human kind.
There Are Things We Were Never Meant To Know.
Luis Castillo
"Tom Schuler" <d...@teleport.com> wrote in message
news:OHIh5.6508$1V.5...@nntp1.onemain.com...
>
> "Luis Castillo" <luis...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:5kFh5.3693$0I5....@news2.atl...
> >
> > "richard sprigg" <kt...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:398643...@sympatico.ca...
> > >
> > > Man and woman are not opposites, but beings containing a
> > > balance of masculine and feminine.
> >
> > Wow! I am trying to follow you here.
>
> Good heavens. Don't do that.
>
> > But, definetly, a man is one force and woman the other one.
>
> On one side of you is one force, on the other side of you is another.
>
> Pingala/Ida.
>
> Both are you.
>
Pingala, Buddhi and Manas, Binah and his wife Kundalini. But, just when a
Master of Major Misteries attain Self-Ilumination through Sexual magic and
elimination of the Ego, only then he/she will cristalize both forces
completely. In the meantime, we are incomplete, we are just the half of the
whole.
> > You will never get a newborn through sexual intercouse
> > between two men or two women.
>
> But you can get a newborn between one female sheep and a team of
geneticists
> of random sexes.
>
> > The nature has an order, and the no respect of it, brigns nothing
> > but misery to our human kind.
>
> There Are Things We Were Never Meant To Know.
>
> Just because the unbalance between the BEING and the KNOWING. When
knowledge is divorced of the inner spiritual work, then the knowledge will
turn against ourselves. But also we have to cultivate ourselves to attain
self-realization, wich means that we have to find the balance, in other
words, we have to learn to walk through the "path of the razor's edge"
Luis
>
Tom Schuler
>
> But, just when a Master of Major Misteries attain Self-Ilumination
> through Sexual magic and elimination of the Ego, only then he/she
> will cristalize both forces completely.
How did you arrive at that conclusion?
> Just because the unbalance between the BEING and the KNOWING.
> When knowledge is divorced of the inner spiritual work, then the
> knowledge will turn against ourselves.
Same thing. How did you arrive at that conclusion?
I'm very interested in finding out how this point of view has evolved in
you.
Odysseus
"Luis Castillo" <luis...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
[snip]
> You will never get a newborn through sexual intercouse between two men or
> two women.
Isn't that exactly the point of the type of operation under discussion, in
distinction from those that produce a "magical child"? Likewise for m-f anal
or oral intercourse, and masturbation. I believe the chapter on the ALIM
formula in _MIT&P_ makes this about as clear as Crowley ever gets on the
subject ...
__________
--Odysseus
xiwangmu
Luis Castillo:
>>> What is next?
>>> That Sexual Magic can be done in a homosexual relation?
mu:
>> next with regard to what? there are neo-tantric practices that do
>> involve heterosexual sex, homosexual sex, and masturbation.
>>
>> is there something problematic about homosexual relations
>> with respect to sexual magic? what about the 11th Degree OTO?
"Luis Castillo" <luis...@bellsouth.net>:
> Sahaja Maithuna: The sexual practice of creating a new man or woman (in
> physical and spiritual level).
I see, so do you only believe that it happens both at once? many of us
do not, so we'll probably have different answers to these questions.
> The Cosmos is made up of a dynamic harmony of opposites or complementary
> forces: night and day, winter and summer, black and white, Man and Woman,
> etc.........
your dogma. ok. but what about:
dawn/dusk, spring/autumn, grey/clear, intersexuality, etc.?
you can't just wish these away, you know. that you do not choose to make
room for them in your dogma only shows us your limitations.
> These forces through the principle of Harmonia, fit together
> into the whole.
as do the others that I mentioned. ;>
> Man and woman represent the First Dyad of Creation and this Dyad is bridge
> through a third factor, the Force of the Holy Spirit, the Sexual Force.
> That is the mystery of the Trinity.
and what is the 'abomination' of intersexuality'? will you claim it to
be the Satan of your God-man Goddess-woman cosmology? what about the
nonsexual reproduction which preceded sexual reproduction over millenia?
why should the Dyad not be something unicellular, or primordial like
the separation of Order from KaOs, or Something from Nothing?
> ...the practice of Sexual Magic require the two [opposite] forces
> and the action of the third one, the sexual force.
this is confused. is sexuality a force? an activity? and are the
participants in sexuality always only two? why can't someone
masturbate themselves into heaven? is it offensive to some God?
> Can we get light with two possitive or two negative poles?...............
so you like the electricity model of sexual energy. ok. so have a
great many. Mesmer was fond of it too, methinks. but how far does
that model go? can the energy be 'grounded'? if we wear a rubber
will that act as insulation from sexual energy? is it possible to
'short-circuit' the sexual connection? can we make this sexual
energy do 'work' for us, comparable to lighting a light-bulb? are
there ever sexual lightning bolts? is there static sexual energy?
what are the logical differences between electricity and sexual
energy, as you see it? if there are any differences, then are you
sure that you have distinguished them properly?
to make my biases plain, I don't think that electricity is anything
more than a meager metaphor for sexual experiences including what
people call 'energy'. I think of it about like 'magic energy': as a
fantasy which explains but cannot be identified, like phlogiston or
gravitons.
this does not mean that the model is useless. Reich's orgone energy
has apparently had some successes, just as, apparently have the
ideas of Mesmer and the hypnotism into which they were integrated.
richard sprigg
> > Man and woman are not opposites, but beings containing a balance of
> > masculine and feminine.
>
> Wow! I am trying to follow you here.
Not *too* close, please.
> Eventhough male and female have sexual
> aspects of the other (wich is natural according to the esoteric tradition of
> the primitive Hermafrodite of the Genesis and its later sex separation), the
> only being containing a balance of masculine and femenine that I know, were
> a couple of ladies that I met in the gym, who at that time were taking huge
> amounts of steroids in order to build up.
That would be the East German Tradition.
Quite a different matter altogether.
Oddly enough, it is a poor indicator of gender mix, but a strong one of
competitive instinct.
> But, definetly, a man is one force and woman the other one.
I would say masculine and feminine, ying and yan, sulphur and salt, the
pairs of opposites that meet to create the one whole in harmony.
> When they are in
> the sexual intercouse, right in that moment they form, one more time , the
> primitive hermafrodite, with the power of creation a new life (a baby) and
> also the power of regenerating themselves through Sexual Magic.
Yet there is more to the process than just that.
Sexual congress is just the sign on the door.
Different doors lead to different places.
> You will never get a newborn through sexual intercouse between two men or
> two women.
I beg to differ.
The child may not be human, but child there can be.
> The nature has an order, and the no respect of it, brigns nothing
> but misery to our human kind.
"Beyond here there be Dragons"
"Menstrual blood causes venereal disease"
"Sodomy is an abomination"
Explorers seldom feel the need to blindly follow orders.
xiwangmu
"Luis Castillo" <luis...@bellsouth.net>:
>> You will never get a newborn through sexual intercouse
>> between two men or two women.
Odysseus <odysseu...@my-deja.com>:
> Isn't that exactly the point of the type of operation under discussion,
> in distinction from those that produce a "magical child"? Likewise for
> m-f anal or oral intercourse, and masturbation. I believe the chapter
> on the ALIM formula in _MIT&P_ makes this about as clear as Crowley
> ever gets on the subject ...
you mean the part where Crowley more or less defines womanhood with
respect to reproduction? and identifies "witchcraft" with the mere
rearrangement of items by faux-women in the semblance of a "burnt-out,
dead, airless satellite of earth"? I don't remember anything in it
concerning masturbation.
hell, the chapter isn't that long. here's a quote of it from
http://www.luckymojo.com/crowley/004mitap.txt
---------------------------------------------
(Copyright O.T.O., ;>)
[Part Three, Magick in Theory and Practice
Chapter IV]
THE FORMULA OF ALHIM, AND THAT OF ALIM
--------------------------------------
"ALHIM", (Elohim) is the exoteric word for Gods.
<"Gods" are the Forces of Nature; their "Names" are the Laws of
Nature. Thus They are eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent and so
on; and thus their "Wills" are immutable and absolute.>
It is the masculine plural of a feminine noun, but its
nature is principally feminine.
<{It represents Sakti, or *te*; femininity always means form,
manifestation. The masculine Siva, or *tao*, is always a
concealed force.}>
It is a perfect hieroglyph of the number 5. This should
be studied in "A Note on Genesis" (Equinox I, II).
The Elements are all represented, as in
Tetragrammaton, but there is no development from one
into the others. They are, as it were, thrown together
-- untamed, only sympathising by virtue of their wild
and stormy but elastically resistless energy. The
Central letter is "He" -- the letter of breath --
and represents Spirit. The first letter "Aleph" is the
natural letter of Air, and the Final "Mem" is the natural
letter of Water. Together, "Aleph" and "Mem" make "Am" --
the mother within whose womb the Cosmos is conceived.
But "Yod" is not the natural letter of Fire. Its
juxtaposition with "He" sanctifies that fire to the
"Yod" of Tetragrammaton. Similarly we find "Lamed"
for Earth, where we should expect Tau -- in order to
emphasize the influence of Venus, who rules Libra.
"ALHIM", therefore, represents rather the
formula of Consecration than that of a complete ceremony.
It is the breath of benediction, yet so potent that it
can give life to clay and light to darkness.
In consecrating a weapon, "Aleph" is the whirling
force of the thunderbolt, the lightning which flameth out
of the East even {24} into the West. This is the gift of
the wielding of the thunderbolt of Zeus or Indra, the
god of Air. "Lamed" is the Ox-goad, the driving force;
and it is also the Balance, representing the truth and
love of the Magician. It is the loving care which he
bestows upon perfecting his instruments, and the
equilibration of that fierce force which initiates the
ceremony.
<{The letters *aleph* and *lamed* are infinitely important in
this AEon of Horus; they are indeed the Key of "The Book of
the Law". No more can be said in this place than that *aleph*
is Harpocrates, Bacchus Diphues, the Holy Ghost, the "Pure
Fool" or Innocent Babe who is also the Wandering Singer who
impregnates the King's Daughter with Himself as her Child;
*lamed* is the King's Daughter, satisfied by Him, holding
His "Sword and Balances" in her lap. These weapons are the
Judge, armed with power to execute His Will, and the Two
Witnesses "in whom shall every Truth be satisfied" in
accordance with whose *testimony* he gives judgment.}>
"Yod" is the creative energy -- the procreative
power: and yet "Yod" is the solitude and silence of the
hermitage into which the Magician has shut himself.
"Mem" is the letter of water, and it is the Mem final,
whose long flat lines suggest the Sea at Peace
[Hebrew]:Mem-final ; not the ordinary (initial and
medial) Mem whose hieroglyph is a wave [Hebrew]:Mem.
<{In the symbolism above outlined, *yod* is the Mercurial
"Virgin Word," the Spermatozoon concealing its light under
a cloak; and *mem* is the amniotic fluid, the Flood wherein
is the Life-bearing Ark. See A. Crowley, "The Ship," "The
Equinox" I (10).}>
And then, in the Centre of all, broods Spirit, which
combines the mildness of the Lamb with the horns of
the Ram, and is the letter of Bacchus or "Christ".
<{The letter *he* is the formula of Nuit, which makes possible
the process described in the previous notes. But it is not
permissible here to explain fully the exact matter or manner
of this adjustment. I have preferred the exoteric attributions,
which are sufficiently informative for the beginner.} [HBeta
contends this relates to the tzaddi-he counterchange; cf. "The
Book of Thoth" and nagasiva's alt.magick FAQ. mu]>
After the magician has created his instrument,
and balanced it truly, and filled it with the lightnings
of his Will, then is the weapon laid away to rest; and
in this Silence, a true Consecration comes.
THE FORMULA OF ALIM
It is extremely interesting to contrast with the
above the formula of the elemental Gods deprived of the
creative spirit. One {25} might suppose that as ALIM, is
the masculine plural of the masculine noun AL, its formula
would be more virile than that of ALHIM, which is the
masculine plural of the feminine noun ALH. A moment's
investigation is sufficient to dissipate the illusion. The
word masculine has no meaning except in relation to some
feminine correlative.
The word ALIM may in fact be considered as neuter.
By a rather absurd convention, neuter objects are treated
as feminine on account of their superficial resemblance
in passivity and inertness with the unfertilized female.
But the female produces life by the intervention of the
male, while the neuter does so only when impregnated by
Spirit. Thus we find the feminine AMA, becoming AIMA
<{*AMA* is 42, the number of sterility; *AIMA*, 52, that of
fertility, of *BN*, the SON.}>
through the operation of the phallic Yod, while ALIM, the
congress of dead elements, only fructifies by the
brooding of Spirit.
This being so, how can we describe ALIM as
containing a Magical Formula? Inquiry discloses the fact
that this formula is of a very special kind.
The word adds up to 81, which is a number of the
moon. It is thus the formula of witchcraft, which is under
Hecate.
<{See A. Crowley, "Orpheus", for a superb invocation of this
Goddess.}>
It is only the romantic mediaeval perversion of science
that represents young women as partaking in witchcraft,
which is, properly speaking, restricted to the use of
such women as are no longer women in the Magical sense
of the word, because thy are no longer capable of
corresponding to the formula of the male, and are
therefore neuter rather than feminine. It is for this
reason that their method has always been referred to the
moon, in that sense of the term in which she appears,
not as the feminine correlative of the sun, but as the
burnt-out, dead, airless satellite of earth.
No true Magical operation can be performed by
the formula of ALIM. <bold>All the works of witchcraft
are illusory; and their apparent effects depend on the
idea that it is possible to alter things by the mere
rearrangement of them</bold>. One {26} must not rely upon
the false analogy of the Xylenes to rebut this argument.
It is quite true that geometrical isomers act in
different manners towards the substance to which
they are brought into relation. And it is of course
necessary sometimes to rearrange the elements of a
molecule before that molecule can form either the
masculine or the feminine element in a true Magical
combination with some other molecule.
It is therefore occasionally inevitable for a
Magician to reorganize the structure of certain elements
before proceeding to his operation proper. Although such
work is technically witchcraft, it must not be regarded
as undesirable on that ground, for all operations which
do not transmute matter fall strictly speaking under
this heading.
The real objection to this formula is not
inherent in its own nature. Witchcraft consists in
treating it as the exclusive preoccupation of Magick,
and especially in denying to the Holy Spirit his right
to indwell His Temple.
<{The initiate of the XI' of O.T.O. will remark that there is a
totally different formula of ALIM, complementary with that
here discussed. 81 may be regarded as a number of Yesod rather
than of Luna. The actual meaning of the word may be taken as
indicating the formula. *Aleph* may be referred to Harpocrates,
with allusion to the well-known poem of Catullus. *Lamed* may
imply the exaltation of Saturn, and suggest the Three of Swords
in a particular manner. *Yod* will then recall Hermes, and
*mem* "The Hanged Man." We have thus a Tetragrammaton which
contains no female component. The initial Force is here the
Holy Spirit and its vehicle or weapon the "Sword and Balances."
Justice is then done upon the Mercurial "Virgin," with the
result that the Man is "Hanged" or extended, and is slain in
this manner. Such an operation makes creation impossible --
as in the former case; but here there is no question of
rearrangement; the creative force is employed deliberately
for destruction, and is entirely absorbed in its own sphere
(or cylinder, on Einstein's equations) of action. This Work
is to be regarded as "Holiness to the Lord." The Hebrews, in
fact, conferred the title of *Qadosh* ("holy") upon its
adepts. Its effect is to consecrate the Magicians who perform
it in a very special way. We may take note also of the
correspondence of Nine with *teth*, XI, Leo, and the Serpent.
The great merits of this formula are that it avoids contact
with the inferior planes, that it is self-sufficient, that it
involves no responsibilities, and that it leaves its masters
not only stronger in themselves, but wholly free to fulfill
their essential Natures. Its abuse is an abomination.}>
{27}
________________________________________________________________
"Liber ABA: Book Four", Aleister Crowley. text in {curly
brackets} excerpted from Weiser, 1997 ed. Hymenaeus Beta;
pp. 155-7; text in [square brackets] commentary or expansion
by xiwanmgu (naga...@luckymojo.com).
-----------------------------------------------------------------
extensive commentary? how do 'Thelmic witches' handle this?
Fabrizio Bartolomucci
For a male to attain multi-orgasmic sex a lot of training is needed as well as for a woman that wants to take mastery of her internal
muscles.
Actually I prefer to call this practices meditation, for the concentration they need, rather than masturbation as we call that solo sex
practice in which people are focused outside of themselves - like on a porno star, a past situation, or a potential one ...
Greetings,
Fabrizio
nagasiva yronwode wrote:
> 50000730 Vom
>
> Souther...@webtv.net (Savannah & Chase):
> >Could somebody help me on this topic. Is there a ritual or guided
> >meditation incorporating masturbation?
>
> there are quite a few. many within what is called 'pornography'
> which could be adopted for visualizations with intercourse with
> the gods. focussed meditation upon a picture of a deity to whom
> one is drawn while meditating can be a wonderful experience.
>
> nagasiva
> --
> FREE HOODOO CATALOGUE! send street address to: cata...@luckymojo.com
> mailto:naga...@luckymojo.com ; http://www.luckymojo.com/nagasiva.html ; mailto:bobo...@satanservice.org ; http://www.satanservice.org/
> emailed replies may be posted; cc replies if response desired
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fabrizio Bartolomucci
Centro Sviluppo Materiali s.p.a. - Information Technology
Via di Castel Romano, 100 - 00128 Rome - Italy
Phone: (+39) 065055753 Fax: (+39) 065055215
mailto:f.barto...@c-s-m.it
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joshua O'Brien
>
> Actually you seem to miss the whole subject of Tantra.
> For a male to attain multi-orgasmic sex a lot of training is needed
Only if you mean poor training.
Luis Castillo
> Luis Castillo wrote:
> >
> > "richard sprigg" <kt...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>
> > > Man and woman are not opposites, but beings containing a balance of
> > > masculine and feminine.
> >
> > Wow! I am trying to follow you here.
>
> Not *too* close, please.
>
> > Eventhough male and female have sexual
> > aspects of the other (wich is natural according to the esoteric
tradition of
> > the primitive Hermafrodite of the Genesis and its later sex separation),
the
> > only being containing a balance of masculine and femenine that I know,
were
> > a couple of ladies that I met in the gym, who at that time were taking
huge
> > amounts of steroids in order to build up.
>
> That would be the East German Tradition.
> Quite a different matter altogether.
> Oddly enough, it is a poor indicator of gender mix, but a strong one of
> competitive instinct.
>
Luis: No at all. You will find the same tradition in the Biblie Genesis,
Kabalistisc sciencie, actually for all over the planet. A couple of goods
books of the topic:
Gnostic Antropology of Samael Aun Weor
The Lost Lemuria of Elliot Scott.
> > But, definetly, a man is one force and woman the other one.
>
> I would say masculine and feminine, ying and yan, sulphur and salt, the
> pairs of opposites that meet to create the one whole in harmony.
>
Luis; right. Man and Woman, Masculine and Femenine.
> > When they are in
> > the sexual intercouse, right in that moment they form, one more time ,
the
> > primitive hermafrodite, with the power of creation a new life (a baby)
and
> > also the power of regenerating themselves through Sexual Magic.
>
> Yet there is more to the process than just that.
> Sexual congress is just the sign on the door.
> Different doors lead to different places.
>
Luis: You are right one more time: diferent doors lead us to diferent
places. Be careful when you open one.
> > You will never get a newborn through sexual intercouse between two men
or
> > two women.
>
> I beg to differ.
> The child may not be human, but child there can be.
>
Luis: We can always play games with what exist in nature, but we have to be
willing that rather sonner than later, we will get the bill......
> > The nature has an order, and the no respect of it, brigns nothing
> > but misery to our human kind.
>
> "Beyond here there be Dragons"
> "Menstrual blood causes venereal disease"
> "Sodomy is an abomination"
>
> Explorers seldom feel the need to blindly follow orders.
Luis: Open your eyes, and learn the practices that will allow you to follow
the orders of your inner Atman.
Luis Castillo
Aun Weor, the foundation of my esoteric work, in order to attain
self-realization, is based in the death of the psychological "I" (the
merchants of the temple of the NT) and the birth of the Being within, wich
is the "second birth" (the work of "carrying" the cross).
And as the first birth comes up through sex, the second birth also demands
tha action of this powerful force, but in this case, usinf the techniques of
Sexual Yoga, wich is, basically, the connection of the Lingam-Yoni without
the ejaculation of the "ens seminis"............well, talking is
cheap...............In my personal experiencie, this "the test", to learn
how to work with the evil.........how to steal the fire from our own
particular Satan.....
Peace
Luis
"Tom Schuler" <d...@teleport.com> wrote in message
news:6hOh5.8889$mt6.6...@nntp3.onemain.com...
Luis Castillo
design that try to explain the work of creation.
The Dyad represents the beggining of manifestation and hence the begining of
strife.
The ONE represents the principle of Unity and the Two, the Dyad, represents
the principle of duality, multiplicity and the movement away from divine
unity toward manifestation. That is the reason why the Dyad is called
Unlimited, Birth, Matter, Nature, etc
The Dyad, the Two, is made by the doubling of the Unity, so in the Two, we
see matter and all that is perceptible, the generation of motion,
multiplication and addition, composition and the relationship of one thing
to another (spring-autom, grey-clear, etc)
Respect of the Third Force, the Triad (Harmony), this binds together the
Two, but also, in the process, centraly reflects the nature of the One, in a
"microcosmic" and balanced fashion. And it is through this principle of
Harmony that all the things, phenomena, and forces, are miracously and
bautifully reconciled into the greater whole.
That is why we can affirm that when the two opposites and complementary
forces, Masculine-Femenine, get together through sexual intercourse , they
form a powerfully Divine Trinity, a Divine Androgenous, a male-female
Elohim, with the power of producing a tremendous physical and spiritual
transformation.
Now, about of "intersexuality", there is Suprasexuality, wich is the result
of sexual transmutation , and also Infrasexuality with all its "sexual
refinements" as homsexualism, lesbianism, pornography, hatred for sex,
disdain for sex, the fear of sex. sexual brutality, sexual sadism, etc etc
etc.......
Sexual Energy is truly the most subtled and powerful energy normally
produced through the human organism. Because of that, the control and
storage of this energy is certainly difficult but represents a source of
inmense power that can result in a true catastrophe of one does not know kow
to handle it.
Luis
"xiwangmu" <naga...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:8m7s7t$h...@bolt.sonic.net...
Whitepaw
> (Copyright O.T.O., ;>)
>
> [Part Three, Magick in Theory and Practice
> Chapter IV]
> THE FORMULA OF ALHIM, AND THAT OF ALIM
> --------------------------------------
>
> "ALHIM", (Elohim) is the exoteric word for Gods.
just a quick question, does 'Elohim' come from Aramaic? It looks like 'Eloi'
as in 'Eloi, Eloi, lamma sachthabani' ('My God, my God, why have you
forsaken me?' if u didn't already know) which was part of my GCSE RE
revision.
--
"Ask 10 Werewolves what a Werewolf is and you'll get 11 diferent answers" -
unkwn.
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kol...@my-deja.com
sp...@luckymojo.com wrote:
> 50000801 Vom
>
> papa...@aol.com (Papaj418) about sex magic involving homosexuality
and masturbation:
> >>>...Culling covered masturbation, and in my
> >>>haste I lumped it with AC's coverage of both.
>
> mu:
> >> where did AC cover both?
>
> kol...@my-deja.com:
> >homo: The Secret Garden of Abdullah
>
> http://www.luckymojo.com/crowley/000bimuattar.txt
>
> please do not distribute this file widely, as I have not yet completed
> the translation of the Persian into apprehensible English (those who
> have the interest in so doing, please contact me privately).
>
> koldoon, could you explain how this document relates to sex magic in
> any way, and what one may glean from reading its content that applies
> to the subject of homosexual sex magic?
It seems to me that you already have a clear idea of what
"homosexual sex magic" IS, and it is probably something different from
the sex magic that may occur between two people of the same sex.
You realize, that to explain how anything relates to anything, we must
first agree on the definitions. That would take centuries if not eons.
How does the "document" NOT relate to sex magic? Each poem is a
reflection of a state of consciousness touching upon love, power, the
will to power & domination and the will to submission. How is that
not Magical? And it is homosexual sex magick, because it involves 2
males, the narrator, Abdullah? and the young boy Habib.
sorry if this is too simplistic for you.
> ALSO:
> Papa John suggests "de Arte Magica" in another post. PJ, could you
> explain what this text has to say about sex magic of any type,
> particularly that concerning homosexual sex magic? do you know of
> a web site which hosts a copy of this text? URL?
>
> here are some comments about it within the Lucky Mojo Esoteric
> Archive:
>
> http://www.luckymojo.com/tantra/neo-tantra/ny199612elixir2.txt
>
> if you're going to bring up the text as support for your assertion,
> then let's look it over closely to find out what it really means.
>
> :> mu
> --
> FREE HOODOO CATALOGUE! send street address to: cata...@luckymojo.com
> mailto:naga...@luckymojo.com ; http://www.luckymojo.com/nagasiva.html
; mailto:bobo...@satanservice.org ; http://www.satanservice.org/
> emailed replies may be posted; cc replies if response desired
>
Wombat
> just a quick question, does 'Elohim' come from Aramaic? It looks like 'Eloi'
> as in 'Eloi, Eloi, lamma sachthabani' ('My God, my God, why have you
> forsaken me?' if u didn't already know) which was part of my GCSE RE
> revision.
Elohim is one of the Hebrew words for God. Not the Hebrew name for God,
Yahweh (which is not to be spoken), but a word referring to God. I'm
not surprised that they are similar, since Aramaic was around when
Hebrew was first being written down, and much of Hebrew legend seems to
have been taken from other cultures they were in contact with (Noah v
epic of Gilgamesh). It may well be that Elohim is simply the Hebrew
pronunciation of the Aramaic word Eloi.
[wombat]
Re O'Stat
<wom...@geographic.net> wrote:
Ah....no.
Elohim is a fascinating Hebrew word.
Hebrew, as with many other languages, has suffixes which indicate
gender.
For example, many nouns ending in -ah or -ohare feminine singular
Yelid=boy
Yaldah=girl
El=God
Elah or Eloh=Goddess
Masculine plural is indicated by the suffix, "-im" while fem. plural is
indicated by "-oth" (or "-oht," or "-os").
This means that the plural of male gods should be "Elim" While the
plural of goddesses should be "Eloahoth."
If you take the female singular and add the male plural, you get
"Elohim."
Traditionally, this is considered to be a use of the Royal We (as in
"Let us make man in our image..."). This is a necessity since, in
Judaism, there is only one deity.
Some Christians try to say that this is a plural because it represents
the Trinity. However, most of those theorists are loathe to say that
this has any female aspect as that would equate Holy Spirit with the
Sophia of Gnosticism and they are terrified of that obvious link to
their theology, a link they vigorously deny in spite of its obvious
existence.
Finally, some Kabalists would say that it is a title of God, as God
cannot be limited and is therefore both multiple and singular, male and
female. Other might say that it represents all of the aspects of deity
on the Tree of Life. Still others might say that it shows the ancient
Hebrews were trying to subsume other deities into their One God.
Re
catherine yronwode
>
> ... when the two opposites and complementary
> forces, Masculine-Femenine, get together through sexual intercourse ,
> they form a powerfully Divine Trinity, a Divine Androgenous, a male-
>
> Now, about of "intersexuality", there is Suprasexuality, wich is the
> result of sexual transmutation , and also Infrasexuality with all
> its "sexual refinements" as homsexualism, lesbianism, pornography,
> hatred for sex, disdain for sex, the fear of sex. sexual brutality,
> sexual sadism, etc etc etc.......
That's not what nagasiva was asking your oipinion about -- he was asking
about *intersexual* individuals -- not people with unusual sexual
tatstes, but people born as actual physical menfestattions of what you
call "a Divine Androgenous, a male-female Elohim,"
Because we are talking at cross-purposes here, i am going to append part
of the ISNA FAQ i referred to in a previous post.
Remember, this was NOT a question about sadism, masochism, fear of sex,
disdain for sex sexual brutality, pornography or even "voluntary"
lesbians and homosexuality in regard to tantra. The fact that you
thought it *was* indicates that "intersexuality" is a term you are not
familiar with, and hence an area of human life you are not familiar with
as well. Again, nagasiva and i have both been asking you a question
about intersexual individuals, people born with ambiguous genitals, who
may look partially male and partially female, are treated in the
doctrine of your school of tantra.
By the way, of the various casues of intersexuality listed below, only
ONE is human-induced -- that being progestin induced virilization, which
is almost a thing of the past in terms of current births, as progestin
is no longer administered to pregnant women as it was before the
problems it caused were understood. The rest of these forms of
intersexuality are mostly genetic and NONE are the result of "lifestyle
choices" on the part of the parents of intersexuals or on the part of
intersexual people themselves.
It is my belief that any realistic system of sexual magic or mysticism
MUST provide compassionate answers to the questions raised by
intersexual individuals about what THEIR role is in the cosmic dance.
Here is the relative portion of the ISNA FAQ -- after you read it, i
would really like to hear your reply.
cat yronwode
-------
from the ISNA FAQ at http://www.isna.org/faq.html
What is intersexuality
(hermaphroditism)?
Our culture conceives sex anatomy as a dichotomy:
humans come in two sexes, conceived of as so different
as to be nearly different species. However,
developmental embryology, as well as the existence of
intersexuals, proves this to be a cultural construction.
Anatomic sex differentiation occurs on a male/female
continuum, and there are several dimensions.
Genetic sex, or the organization of the "sex
chromosomes," is commonly thought to be isomorphic to
some idea of "true sex." However, something like 1/500 of
the population have a karyotype other than XX or XY.
Since genetic testing was instituted for women in the
Olympic Games, a number of women have been
disqualified as "not women," after winning. However,
none of the disqualified women is a man; all have
atypical karyotypes, and one gave birth to a healthy child
after having been disqualified.
The sex chromosomes determine the differentiation of the
gonads into ovaries, testes, ovo-testes, or nonfunctioning
streaks. The hormones produced by the fetal gonads
determine the differentiation of the external genitalia into
male, female, or intermediate (intersexual) morphology.
Genitals develop from a common precursor, and
therefore intermediate morphology is common, but the
popular idea of "two sets" of genitals (male and female) is
not possible. Intersexual genitals may look nearly female,
with a large clitoris, or with some degree of posterior
labial fusion. They may look nearly male, with a small
penis, or with hypospadias. They may be truly "right in the
middle," with a phallus that can be considered either a
large clitoris or a small penis, with a structure that might
be a split, empty scrotum, or outer labia, and with a small
vagina that opens into the urethra rather than into the
perineum.
return to questions
What is androgen
insensitivity syndrome?
Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, or AIS, is a genetic
condition, inherited (except for occasional spontaneous
mutations), occurring in approximately 1 in 20,000
individuals. In an individual with complete AIS, the body's
cells are unable to respond to androgen, or "male"
hormones. ("Male" hormones is an unfortunate term,
since these hormones are ordinarily present and active in
both males and females.) Some individuals have partial
androgen insensitivity.
In an individual with complete AIS and karyotype 46 XY,
testes develop during gestation. The fetal testes produce
mullerian inhibiting hormone (MIH) and testosterone. As
in typical male fetuses, the MIH causes the fetal mullerian
ducts to regress, so the fetus lacks uterus, fallopian tubes,
and cervix plus upper part of vagina. However, because
cells fail to respond to testosterone, the genitals
differentiate in the female, rather than the male pattern,
and Wolffian structures (epididymis, vas deferens, and
seminal vessicles) are absent.
The newborn AIS infant has genitals of normal female
appearance, undescended or partially descended testes,
and usually a short vagina with no cervix. Occasionally
the vagina is nearly absent. AIS individuals are clearly
women. At puberty, the estrogen produced by the testes
produces breast growth, though it may be late. She does
not menstruate, and is not fertile. Most AIS women have
no pubic or underarm hair, but some have sparse hair.
When an AIS girl is diagnosed during infancy, physicians
often perform surgery to remove her undescended testes.
Although removal of testes is advisable, because of the
risk of cancer, ISNA advocates that surgery be offered
later, when the girl can choose for herself. Testicular
cancer is rare before puberty.
Vaginoplasty surgery is frequently performed on AIS
infants or girls to increase the size of the vagina, so that
she can engage in penetrative intercourse with a partner
with an average size penis. Vaginoplasty surgery is
problematic, with many failures. ISNA advocates against
vaginal surgery on infants. Such surgery should be
offered to, not imposed on, the pubertal girl, and she
should have an opportunity to speak with adult AIS
women about their sexual experience and about surgery
in order to make a fully informed decision. Not all AIS
women will choose surgery.
Some women have successfully increased the depth of
their vagina with a program of regular pressure dilation,
using aids designed for that purpose. Contact the AIS
Support Network (see our links page for more
information).
Physicians and parents have been most reluctant to be
honest with AIS girls and women about their condition,
and this secrecy and stigma has unnecessarily increased
the emotional burden of being different.
Because AIS is a genetic defect located on the X
chromosome, it runs in families. Except for spontaneous
mutations, the mother of an AIS individual is a carrier,
and her XY children have a 1/2 chance of having AIS.
Her XX children have a 1/2 chance of carrying the AIS
gene. Most AIS women should be able to locate other AIS
women among siblings or maternal relatives.
See our links page for an address for the AIS Support
Network.
return to questions
Is there a test for
androgen insensitivity
syndrome?
The answer depends upon exactly what you are looking
for--diagnostic information, or carrier status. If were born
with female genitals and testes, and have very sparse or
absent pubic hair, you most likely have complete AIS. If
you were born with ambiguous genitals and testes, there
are a number of possible etiologies, including partial AIS.
Testing for partial AIS is more problematic than the
complete form. Hormonal tests in a newborn with 46 XY
karyotype and ambiguous genitals will show normal to
elevated testosterone and LH, and a normal ratio of
testosterone to DHT. A family history of ambiguous
genitals in maternal relatives suggests partial androgen
insensitivity.
If you are wondering if you are a carrier, or if you know
that you are a carrier and are wondering about the status
of your fetus, genetic testing is possible. AIS has been
diagnosed as early as 9-12 weeks gestation by chorionic
villus sampling (sampling tissue from the fetal side of the
placenta). By the 16th week it can be detected by
ultrasound and amniocentesis. However, prenatal
diagnosis is not indicated unless there is a family history
of AIS.
Â
See the following for details of testing.
Hodgins M. B., Duke E. M., Ring D.:
Carrier detection in the testicular
feminization syndrome: deficient 5
alpha-dihydrotestosterone binding in
cultured skin fibroblasts from the mothers
of patients with complete androgen
insensitivity. J. Med. Genet. Jun 1984, 21,
(3), p178-81.
Batch J. A., Davies H. R., Evans B. A. J.,
Hughes I. A., Patterson M. N.: Phenotypic
variation and detection of carrier status in
the partial androgen insensitivity
syndrome. Arch. Dis. Childh. 1993; 68:
453-457.
return to questions
What is partial
androgen insensitivity
syndrome?
The extent of androgen insensitivity in 46 XY individuals
is quite variable, even in a single family. Partial androgen
insensitivity typically results in "ambiguous genitalia." The
clitoris is large or, alternatively, the penis is small and
hypospadic (these are two ways of labeling the same
anatomical structure). Partial androgen insensitivity may
be quite common, and has been suggested as the cause
of infertility in many men whose genitals are of typically
male appearance.
Individuals with ambiguous genitals have typically been
subjected to "corrective" surgery during infancy. Based
on our own painful experiences, ISNA believes that such
cosmetic surgery of the genitals is harmful and unethical.
Surgery is justified only when it is necessary for the
health and well-being of the child. Surgery which is
intended to make the genitals appear more male or more
female should be offered, but not imposed, only when the
child is old enough to make an informed decision for
her/himself.
return to questions
What is Adrenal
Hyperplasia?
Adrenal Hyperplasia is the most prevalent cause of
intersexuality amongst XX people with a frequency of
about 1 in 20000 births. It is caused when an anomoly of
adrenal function (usually 21-hydroxylase or
11-hydroxylase deficiency) causes the synthesis and
excretion an androgen precursor, initiating virilization of a
XX person in-utero. Because the virilization originates
metabolically, masculinizing effects continue after birth.
As in progestin induced virilization, sex phenotype varies
along the same continuum, with the possible added
complication of metabolic problems which upset serum
sodium balance. The metabolic effects of CAH can be
counteracted with cortisone. The scenario for medical
intervention for intersex is similar... but CAH people have
an increased likelihood of early detection due to
metabolic imbalances (Salt Losing Form). The long term
use of cortisone itself produces significant dependance
and other side effects, all of which need to be explained
honestly and openly.
return to questions
What is Progestin
Induced Virilization?
Caused by prenatal exposure to exogenous androgens,
most commonly progestin. Progestin is a drug which was
administered to prevent miscarriage in the 50's and 60's
and it is converted to an androgen (virilizing hormone) by
the prenatal XX persons metabolism. If the timing is right,
the genitals are virilized with effects ranging from
enlarged clitoris to the development of a complete
phallus and the fusing of the labia. In all cases ovaries
and uterus or uterine tract are present, though in extreme
cases of virilization there is no vagina or cervix, the
uterine tract being connected to the upper portion of the
urethra internally. The virilization only occurs prenatally
and the endocrinological functionality is unchanged, ie.
feminizing puberty occurs due to normally functioning
ovaries.
In other words, XX people affected in-utero by virilizing
hormones can be born into a continuum of sex
phenotype which ranges from "female with larger clitoris"
to "male with no testes". It is noteworthy that the use of
progestin is not effective in the prevention of miscarriage.
Progestin androgenized children are subjected to the
same surgically enforced standards of cosmetic genital
normalcy as other intersexed children... meaning that
clitoridectomy and possibly more extensive procedures
are often performed early in life, most often with the effect
of loss of erotic sensation and ensueing psychological
trauma. ISNA believes that this surgery is unneccessary,
cosmetic and primarily "cultural" in its significance. It is of
no benefit to the child, who suffers even more from the
stigma and shame of having been surgically altered than
she would have had her non-standard genitals been
allowed to remain intact.
Occasionally a female neonate will be so genitally
virilized that she is given a male identity at birth and
raised as a boy. It is important not to hide the
circumstances of her biology from such a child, in order to
the avoid shame, stigma and confusion which results
from secrecy. After the onset of puberty the child may
want to explore the option, hopefully with the aid of loving
parents and peer counseling, of having surgery to allow
expression of either female or male sexuality. This is not
a choice that should be forced prematurely, it is a
personal choice to be made by a teenager about his/her
body and about her/his choice of sexual identity and
sexuality.
return to questions
What is Klinefelter syndrome?
Most men inherit a single X chromosome from their
mother, and a single Y chromosome from their father.
Men with klinefelter syndrome inherit an extra X
chromosomes from either father or mother; their
karyotype is 47 XXY. Klinefelter is quite common,
occuring in 1/500 to 1/1,000 male births.
The effects of klinefelter are quite variable, and many
men with klinefelter are never diagnosed. The only
characteristic that seems certain to be present is small,
very firm testes, and an absence of sperm in the
ejaculate, causing infertility. Except for small testes, men
with klinefelter are born with normal male genitals. But
their testes often produce lower than average quantities
of testosterone, so they don't virilize (develop facial and
body hair, muscles, deep voice, larger penis and testes)
as strongly as other boys at puberty. Many also
experience some gynecomastia (breast growth) at
puberty.
Physicians recommend that boys with klinefelter be given
testosterone at puberty, so that they will virilize in the
same way as their peers, and that men with klinefelter
continue to take testosterone thoughout their lives, in
order to maintain a more masculine appearance and
high libido. Many ISNA members, however, report that
they do not like the effects of testosterone, and prefer to
reduce their dosage, or not to take it at all.
Many ISNA members with klinefelter syndrome are
homosexual, a few are transsexual, and nearly all
experience their gender as quite different from other men.
In contrast, medical literature tends to discount any
connection between klinefelter syndrome and
homosexuality or gender issues. We suspect that
medical reassurances that "your son will not be gay" are
based more on homophobia than on an accurate
assessment of probabilities. Gay children deserve
honesty and parental love and support!
return to questions
What is hypospadias?
Hypospadias refers to a urethral meatus ("pee-hole")
which is located along the underside, rather than at the
tip of the penis. In minor, or distal hypospadias, the
meatus may be located on the underside of the penis, in
the glans. In more pronounced hypospadias, the urethra
may be open from mid-shaft out to the glans, or the
urethra may even be entirely absent, with the urine
exiting the bladder behind the penis.
See Hypospadias: A parent's guide to surgery for a
discussion of causes and treatment.
return to questions
richard sprigg
Exactly so.
Order your pleasure, and when the bill comes, stand up and pay without
complaint.
That should be pointed out more often.
>
> > > The nature has an order, and the no respect of it, brigns nothing
> > > but misery to our human kind.
> >
> > "Beyond here there be Dragons"
> > "Menstrual blood causes venereal disease"
> > "Sodomy is an abomination"
> >
> > Explorers seldom feel the need to blindly follow orders.
>
> Luis: Open your eyes, and learn the practices that will allow you to follow
> the orders of your inner Atman.
Of course.
I have a penchant for interesting byways, though.
nagasiva yronwode
nagasiva:
>> there are quite a few. many within what is called 'pornography'
>> which could be adopted for visualizations with intercourse with
>> the gods. focussed meditation upon a picture of a deity to whom
>> one is drawn while meditating can be a wonderful experience.
Fabrizio Bartolomucci <f.barto...@c-s-m.it> :
> Actually you seem to miss the whole subject of Tantra.
> For a male to attain multi-orgasmic sex
that's the subject of Tantra?
> a lot of training is needed as well as for a woman
> that wants to take mastery of her internal muscles.
I suppose if you're looking to achieve an atheletic goal
then actually doing the thing is necessary, agreed.
> Actually I prefer to call this practices meditation,
> for the concentration they need,
what gets called "meditation" these days fascinates me.
> rather than masturbation as we call that solo sex
> practice
why isn't it REALLY solo sex?
> in which people are focused outside of themselves
why do they have to be focussed outside themselves?
how about just feeling the sensations of pleasure
and being totally into the mastubation experience?
> - like on a porno star, a past situation, or a
> potential one ...
so do you think that Tantric Buddhists focussing upon
a yidam, or meditation deity are "missing the subject
of Tantra"? is it possible that there might be more
than one kind of Tantra floating around?
nagasiva
xiwangmu
mu concerning homosexuality and masturbation in sex magic:
>>>> where did AC cover both?
kol...@my-deja.com:
>>> homo: The Secret Garden of Abdullah
>>
>> http://www.luckymojo.com/crowley/000bimuattar.txt
>>
>> please do not distribute this file widely, as I have not yet completed
>> the translation of the Persian into apprehensible English (those who
>> have the interest in so doing, please contact me privately).
>>
>> koldoon, could you explain how this document relates to sex magic in
>> any way, and what one may glean from reading its content that applies
>> to the subject of homosexual sex magic?
> It seems to me that you already have a clear idea of what
> "homosexual sex magic" IS, and it is probably something
> different from the sex magic that may occur between two
> people of the same sex.
really? what idea was that? I had no preconceptions in mind.
I'd got the impression that the two were identical (i.e.
homosexual means 'same sex', doesn't it?).
> How does the "document" NOT relate to sex magic?
let's see, that it concerns homosexuality is obvious, that
it purports to be by an author different than the actual
is also clear. that it deals with love, rejection, and
even violent sexual punishment is all too evident. where
this intersects with sex magic of any kind is not very
easy for me to discern, though your comment below says
something about what you include in a study of the subject.
> Each poem is a reflection of a state of consciousness
> touching upon love, power, the will to power & domination
> and the will to submission. How is that not Magical?
there aren't any ceremonies, rituals of wand-consecration,
invocations to Priapus, no mention of magic per se anywhere
in the text. there is no manipulation of symbolic
implements which I would expect in relation to magical
instruction. could you give some examples of how you would
apply these poems to your sex magic practice?
> And it is homosexual sex magick, because it involves 2
> males, the narrator, Abdullah? and the young boy Habib.
homosexual, yes. sex magic? love, power, B&D makes magic?
I'm not so sure. what value do these "states of consciousness"
have with respect to the PRACTICE of sex magic? do you think
that these are essential or integral to sex magic practice?
>sorry if this is too simplistic for you.
too complex, I'm asking for explanation. thanks.
mu
Alexander Maclennan
>>>> homo: The Secret Garden of Abdullah
>>> http://www.luckymojo.com/crowley/000bimuattar.txt
>>> please do not distribute this file widely, as I have not yet completed
>>> the translation of the Persian into apprehensible English (those who
>>> have the interest in so doing, please contact me privately).
>>> koldoon, could you explain how this document relates to sex magic in
>>> any way, and what one may glean from reading its content that applies
>>> to the subject of homosexual sex magic?
>> It seems to me that you already have a clear idea of what "homosexual
>> sex magic" IS, and it is probably something different from the sex
>> magic that may occur between two people of the same sex.
Magically significant or not, the Bagh is Crowley as the mocking joker
at his very best. I gather that it deceived some scholars of this
recondite field in Persian literature for quite some time. It is
Crowley celebrating his relationship with the Pollit man, even
spelling out his name in the penultimate poem `Riddle`. It was
Crowley writing very shortly after the Wilde trial and cocking a most
effective snoot at society. In the Pollit relationship I believe the
podex involved had been Crowley`s. He was indeed a man of many
diverse talents.
--
Alexander MacLennan sand...@sandymac.demon.co.uk
Rev Bacchus
"Whitepaw" <us...@werewolf.in2home.co.uk> wrote in message
news:B5AE4BAA.3547%us...@werewolf.in2home.co.uk...
> >
> > (Copyright O.T.O., ;>)
> >
> > [Part Three, Magick in Theory and Practice
> > Chapter IV]
> > THE FORMULA OF ALHIM, AND THAT OF ALIM
> > --------------------------------------
> >
> > "ALHIM", (Elohim) is the exoteric word for Gods.
>
'Eloi'
> as in 'Eloi, Eloi, lamma sachthabani' ('My God, my God, why have you
> forsaken me?' if u didn't already know) which was part of my GCSE RE
> revision.
>
OmiJuba
conflictive to the natural laws of polarization UNLESS you are doing it to
reproduce.
~OmiJuba
Luis Castillo
"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:398A1B...@luckymojo.com...
> Luis Castillo wrote:
> >
> > ... when the two opposites and complementary
> > forces, Masculine-Femenine, get together through sexual intercourse ,
> > they form a powerfully Divine Trinity, a Divine Androgenous, a male-
> > female Elohim, with the power of producing a tremendous physical and
> > spiritual transformation.
> >
> > Now, about of "intersexuality", there is Suprasexuality, wich is the
> > result of sexual transmutation , and also Infrasexuality with all
> > its "sexual refinements" as homsexualism, lesbianism, pornography,
> > hatred for sex, disdain for sex, the fear of sex. sexual brutality,
> > sexual sadism, etc etc etc.......
>
> That's not what nagasiva was asking your oipinion about -- he was asking
> about *intersexual* individuals -- not people with unusual sexual
> tatstes, but people born as actual physical menfestattions of what you
> call "a Divine Androgenous, a male-female Elohim,"
>
Sorry, my mistake! English is not my first language. Now, that I understand
that part of the question I can answer you from a esoteric point of view,
and believe it or not, the infrasexualism is very close related to all that
kind of problems.
The primitive Male Female Elohim has nothing to do with it. The actual
remains of the process of sex separation can be easily observe in our own
bodies. In the male body we see the remains of a female breast.,and in the
female body the clitoris resemble very well a small pennis. Internally we
all have a mix of hormones and this can be seen when someone is taking
steroids. When a woman do that, her voice will turn really deep, she will
growth mustache, etc. Male have also problemas. Anyone that had have been
working out knows that many times, male bodybuilders that are in stereoids
need an operation to reduce the size of the growing fat in their chest.
That physical abnormality remaind me what happens with some people that come
with a normal set of sexual organs, wether masculine or femenine, but with a
very diferent psychological sexual orientation. Like someone with a male
body but thinking and feeling as a woman. I do not want even image the
suffering of that human being.
But back to the main topic and reading the apendix of your post, we can
agree, without the need of any profesional degree, that the suffering of
that person and the suffering of the parents must be terrible.
Of course the medicine try to fix the problem, in the same way that a lot of
effort aim the founding of the cure for cancer.
But........what is going on here? Why some people have a genetic tendency to
catch such abnormality? or cancer?
What is in fact the genetic information that an individual brings from
conception? Why such genetic information and not another
one?..............bud luck? It is our genetic pool a kind of lottery?
I believe , according with some esoteric traditions, that our genetic
information is a vehicle of the Law of Karma. In other words , what we are
at the moment of conception is not randomly. Our present life is the
consequences of what what we were before.............
And intersexuality as many other physical and psychological diseases are
increasing exponentially, and all we see around us is a human race dying
slowly without hope. Those who have study seriously White Tantrism and
practice it, know that sexual abuse is the source of the decadence of our
race, and that is why I do not have personal problems of talking openly
about infrasexualism, because if the word can be use wrongly, also the
silence can make us accomplice of a crime.
When we talk of the primitive Elohim, we are talking in fact of a human race
that was not even entirely physical, a race of Super-Men, a race of
conscious people. The separation of sexes mark the begining of the
materialization of the physical world, event that happens according with all
the great occultists, millions of years ago in the third root race Lemur.
Peace
Luis
The fact that someone, man or woman comes to life with an abnormal physical
sexuality
catherine yronwode
>
> "richard sprigg" <kt...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >
> > Luis Castillo wrote:
>
> > > But, definetly, a man is one force and woman the other one.
> >
> > I would say masculine and feminine, ying and yan, sulphur and salt,
> > the pairs of opposites that meet to create the one whole in
> > harmony.
> >
Luis, what does your tradition say about intersexual people? I do not
mean homosexuals or transgenedered people here, but true intersexuals.
About one human live birth out of every 2,000 results in a child with
more or less ambiguous genitals.
Prior to WW II, these people usually lived somewhat secretive lives, but
they generally were fully functionally in terms of having sexual
pleasure, although many are sterile (for a variety of reasons).
After WW II the concept of "gender reassignment surgery" on infants was
introduced, and intersex children were often "assigned" a gender on the
basis of which sex the doctor thought it would be easiset to "scult"
their genitaila to resemble!
Later, when chromosome testing became cheaper and easier, the idea was
usually to "assign" a physical-appearance gender that was the same as
the chromosome gender -- but this is not always possible.
In any case, whether the surgery was performed for ease-of-results or to
match the chromosomes, the result was almost always to destroy the
individual's ability to enjoy sex, by cutting vital nerves or even
eliminating entire genital structures such as the clitoris if they were
deemed to be "too big" for the assigned gender.
As recently as four years ago intersex people were powerless to prevent
this non-consensual surgery -=- but through the work of angry, and often
orgasmically "de-sexed" survivors of this mutilating surgery who simply
refuse to accept their intersexuality as a shameful thing and hide it
away -- the tide is now turning and intersexuals are being invited to
work with pediatric surgeons to change the way society looks at
intersexuality. That change is coming -- and very soon, i believe.
What does your religio-mystical tradition have to say about it? Is there
room for intersexuals in your male / female polaity paradigm?
If you want more information about intersexuality and the many varieties
of biological conditions classified as such, you can read a web page at
my site:
http://www.luckymojo.com/tkintersex.html
Or check out the Intersex Society of North Amera (ISNA) FAQ at
http://www.isna.org/faq.html
I really look forward to your reply, Luis. I am not trying to bait you
or cause a fight. I recognize that you personally do not think that
homosexual intercourse is capable of producing spiritual union of a
valuable sort (i disagree, but i shall not argue the issues) -- however,
i seriously wonder what your all-or-nothing approach to male-female
sexual-mystical practices would say about the 1 out of 2,000 people of
ambiquous gender, not sufficiently "male" or "female" to be seen as such
by you, based on the appearance of their genitals.
Remember, most of these people, unless surgically mutilated in the name
of "normalizing their appearance" are perfectly capable of sexual
feelings, sexual arousal, and sexual orgasm.
So what do you say? Are they allowed to participate in your spiritual
system as equals?
cat yronwode
Karezza and Sacred Sex ------ http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredsex.html
kol...@my-deja.com
sp...@luckymojo.com wrote:
> 50000801 Vom
>
> mu concerning homosexuality and masturbation in sex magic:
> >>>> where did AC cover both?
>
> >>> homo: The Secret Garden of Abdullah
> >>
> >> http://www.luckymojo.com/crowley/000bimuattar.txt
> >>
> >> please do not distribute this file widely, as I have not yet
completed
> >> the translation of the Persian into apprehensible English (those
who
> >> have the interest in so doing, please contact me privately).
> >>
> >> koldoon, could you explain how this document relates to sex magic
in
> >> any way, and what one may glean from reading its content that
applies
> >> to the subject of homosexual sex magic?
>
> kol...@my-deja.com:
> > It seems to me that you already have a clear idea of what
> > "homosexual sex magic" IS, and it is probably something
> > different from the sex magic that may occur between two
> > people of the same sex.
>
> I'd got the impression that the two were identical (i.e.
> homosexual means 'same sex', doesn't it?).
> > How does the "document" NOT relate to sex magic?
>
> let's see, that it concerns homosexuality is obvious, that
> it purports to be by an author different than the actual
> is also clear. that it deals with love, rejection, and
> even violent sexual punishment is all too evident. where
> this intersects with sex magic of any kind is not very
> easy for me to discern, though your comment below says
> something about what you include in a study of the subject.
Maybe mysticism is a better term than magic here for most people,
but I tend to not differentiate between them.
> > Each poem is a reflection of a state of consciousness
> > touching upon love, power, the will to power & domination
> > and the will to submission. How is that not Magical?
>
> there aren't any ceremonies, rituals of wand-consecration,
> invocations to Priapus, no mention of magic per se anywhere
> in the text. there is no manipulation of symbolic
> implements which I would expect in relation to magical
> instruction. could you give some examples of how you would
> apply these poems to your sex magic practice?
True, there are no ceremonies resembling those of Golden Dawn or OTO.
However a does a ritual or a ceremony have to be confined to a temple
setting? The author describes the relationship as truly cosmic, the
act of sodomy as symbolic of creativity (writing) and attainment, in
the mystical sense of the word:
Chapter I: "The Abyss" sets the foundation of the rest of the document:
As I placed the rigid pen of my thought within the inkstand of my
imagination, I tasted the bliss of Allah; and withdrawing beheld the
Night and the Void like an hollow vortical shell. But it was only
Habib's podex; and EL QAHAR would rather possess Habib's podex than the
universe.
Chapter II, further elaborates:
I plunged my stamen shapen spud
Into a pool of crimson mud.
.
.
.
It does not take a completely self-aware homosexual to see what this
resembles.
> > And it is homosexual sex magick, because it involves 2
> > males, the narrator, Abdullah? and the young boy Habib.
>
> homosexual, yes. sex magic? love, power, B&D makes magic?
> I'm not so sure. what value do these "states of consciousness"
> have with respect to the PRACTICE of sex magic? do you think
> that these are essential or integral to sex magic practice?
Yes, if not explicitly, then symbolically. What happens in the mind
of a person engaged in homosexual activity, and energies released are
very different from heterosexual activity, but it can be a path that
leads to the same spiritual attainment.
> >sorry if this is too simplistic for you.
>
> too complex, I'm asking for explanation. thanks.
The practice of sodomy can be seen as symbolic of a union with one who
is greater than yourself (symbolic of the HGA). The sodomer is playing
the role of the HGA while the sodomee submits.
xiwangmu
mu concerning homosexuality and masturbation in sex magic:
>>>>>> where did [Crowley] cover both?
kol...@my-deja.com:
>>>>> homo: The Secret Garden of Abdullah
mu:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.luckymojo.com/crowley/000bimuattar.txt
>>>>
>>>> please do not distribute this file widely, as I have
>>>> not yet completed the translation of the Persian into
>>>> apprehensible English (those who have the interest in
>>>> so doing, please contact me privately).
>>>>
>>>> koldoon, could you explain how this document relates
>>>> to sex magic in any way, and what one may glean from
>>>> reading its content that applies to the subject of
>>>> homosexual sex magic?
mu:
>> ...that it concerns homosexuality is obvious, that
>> it purports to be by an author different than the actual
>> is also clear. that it deals with love, rejection, and
>> even violent sexual punishment is all too evident....
> Maybe mysticism is a better term than magic here
> for most people, but I tend to not differentiate
> between them.
apparently Crowley's "magick" was mystical as well as
magical, and yet in his "Magick in Theory and Practice"
we have a more concise and rational elaboration on what
he thinks ought be included in it than may be at all
discerned in "Bagh-i-Muattar", which is merely, at best,
mystical poetry.
>>> Each poem is a reflection of a state of consciousness
>>> touching upon love, power, the will to power & domination
>>> and the will to submission. How is that not Magical?
>>
>> there aren't any ceremonies, rituals of wand-consecration,
>> invocations to Priapus, no mention of magic per se anywhere
>> in the text. there is no manipulation of symbolic
>> implements which I would expect in relation to magical
>> instruction. could you give some examples of how you would
>> apply these poems to your sex magic practice?
> True, there are no ceremonies resembling those of Golden
> Dawn or OTO.
where are there ceremonies of any type which may be called
either mysticism or magic contained or implied within it?
> However a does a ritual or a ceremony have to be confined
> to a temple setting?
usually in material that *covers* the subject the rituals or
ceremonies are identified as such, wherever they are so
conducted.
here are the mentions of possible instructions on magic or
mysticism in which homosexuality is obviously related
which *I* could find within this text (there are other
ordinary and general references which I have here omitted
on account of what you are claiming -- all the authors
are pseudonyms for Crowley as I understand it):
# The First Joy of Union.
#
# XVI. The Jasmine-Jar
#
# I am a bearded and a turbaned sar; [106]
# Thou art a boy more lovely than a star.
# Thou art mine own; I beat thee sore indeed:
# More than thy beauty do I love the scar.
# I mocked thee, shamed thee. Men despise thee now.
# Well, it is well! they come no more to mar
# Our loves; we'll wing through universal space,
# Borne in the moon's chryselephantine car.
# Nor shall the bounds of heaven nor the walls
# Of Allah's house to love be bond or bar. [107]
#
# [editor's note]
# 107
# [Persian] the temple at Mecca. But I think
# here it means the House not made with hands.
# The letter [Persian] itself (*O)
#
# [editor's note on other pseudonymous editor's notes]
# O Not [Persian] but the Hebrew [beth].
#
# means house, and connotes (says Mahbub)
# a great Magus -- "The Magus of Power". The
# passage means therefore that mystic Union
# is the key to Practical Magic.
could you please interpret how this passage and its notes
constitutes a realistic instruction on homosexual magick?
# Ecstasy overcometh Individuality.
#
# XXIV. The Blasphemer
#
# Hast thou never thought, O Habib of the athletic
# body, that when thou wrigglest thy velvet buttocks
# with immense vigour, and bitest hard with thy
# podex-muscle upon the member of El Qahar, that
# thou hast no remembrance of any circumstance
# connected with my personality or thine, but art
# completely absorbed by the act?
#
# It causes me to remember an antient folly and
# blasphemy spoken to me -- Allah purify mine ears!
# -- by a certain Sufi, who, being excessively drunk,
# had lost control over his tongue. For he said that in
# a certain holy meditation both Allah and himself
# were destroyed, and that nought remained, but [154]
# only the consciousness of bliss. This is contrary
# to reason, for how can bliss exist, except as the
# quality of some person or sensible thing?
# Nevertheless, these experiments which I have
# performed upon thy podex, solely with a view to
# investigating these statements, make for a similar [155]
# conclusion.
#
# It is excessively annoying to the pious that any
# analogy in Nature to their follies should seem to
# supply a base for these wild and irrational theories.
# It is the call of the Muezzin; but I must purify myself,
# for during these reflections thy podex hath been
# active upon the member of thine happy El Qahar. [156]
this seems to be a mention of "mystical experiments"
associated with homosexual mysticism, but there is no
mention of what they included. did I miss that part?
# The Mystic the true support of all religion.
#
# XXIII. Mirrikh
#
# [...]
#
# In every caravanserai the boys,
# As to their lords they fierce or languorous cling,
# Cry: "Lov'st thou me, dear master, as Habib
# Is loved by El Qahar the conquering?"
# So, seeing man beloved of Allah, jinn
# Aim at that bliss; their crowns and jewels fling
# From star to star before the crystal throne,
# And El Islam goes ever widening. [153]
#
# [editor's note]
# 153
# This is a very profane jest. Ostensibly,
# of course, the verse means that mystics
# are the salt of the faith. But Islam
# means "resignation" or "submission". In
# wooing a lover your conquest is his
# submission, and your penis widens out his
# anus. The old sodomite is as keen to
# promulgate his vice as his religion, the dog!
perhaps you might also explain why here and in the above
sodomy is referred to as a 'vice' and 'requiring
purification'? if you might also interpret for us how
this particular selection is an instruction on homosexual
sex magick that would be helpful, thanks.
> The author describes the relationship as truly cosmic,
> the act of sodomy as symbolic of creativity (writing)
> and attainment, in the mystical sense of the word....
ok, I agree that it is poetry describing anal intercourse
(and other homosexual activities) as mystical in some way,
but is there some INSTRUCTION to be had in this text? I
asked where Crowley *covered* the subject, not where he
obliquely referred to it in poetry.
> Chapter II, further elaborates:
>
> I plunged my stamen shapen spud
> Into a pool of crimson mud.
> .
> .
> .
>
> It does not take a completely self-aware homosexual to see
> what this resembles.
a simultaneous attraction to and repulsion from anal sex?
please explain!
>>> And it is homosexual sex magick, because it involves 2
>>> males, the narrator, Abdullah? and the young boy Habib.
>>
>> homosexual, yes. sex magic? love, power, B&D makes magic?
>> I'm not so sure. what value do these "states of consciousness"
>> have with respect to the PRACTICE of sex magic? do you think
>> that these are essential or integral to sex magic practice?
>
> Yes, if not explicitly, then symbolically.
ah, so you're saying he alludes to it in this work. with respect
to his magicK, agreed, but he does not 'cover' it in the sense
of describing it, its content, practice, etc., at least not here.
> What happens in the mind of a person engaged in homosexual
> activity, and energies released are very different from
> heterosexual activity,
upon what do you base this assessment?
> but it can be a path that leads to the same spiritual attainment.
why do you posit completely different "categories" of sexuality?
what gives you the impression that it constitues some different
'path' from heterosexuality? is all sex magical? what makes it
a different "energy", as you see it? does it matter if the sex
engaged is seen in a particularly way (e.g. it is repulsive to
them or seems normal to them) by the individual involved?
> The practice of sodomy can be seen as symbolic of a union
> with one who is greater than yourself (symbolic of the HGA).
> The sodomer is playing the role of the HGA while the sodomee submits.
ok, but I didn't see mention of an "HGA" in the work. what do
you take as a symbol, within the poems, for the HGA? why?
do you know of something more precise and descriptive by Crowley
which actually deals with the subject directly rather than
(maybe) referring to an experience of it, and symbolically at that?
nagasiva yronwode
"Luis Castillo" <luis...@bellsouth.net>:
>>> Man and woman represent the First Dyad of Creation and this
>>> Dyad is bridge through a third factor, the Force of the Holy
>>> Spirit, the Sexual Force. That is the mystery of the Trinity.
nagasiva:
>> and what is the 'abomination' of intersexuality'? will you
>> claim it to be the Satan of your God-man Goddess-woman
>> cosmology?
Luis Castillo, before being illuminated as to the meaning
of 'intersexuality' (see http://WWW.ISNA.ORG/ for more):
> Now, about of "intersexuality", there is Suprasexuality, which
> is the result of sexual transmutation, and also Infrasexuality
> with all its "sexual refinements" as homsexualism, lesbianism,
> pornography, hatred for sex, disdain for sex, the fear of sex.
> sexual brutality, sexual sadism, etc etc etc.......
so you do not agree with modern ideas that homosexuality
(male-male/female-female love and sex, found in many
species) is a natural and ordinary phenonmenon? to you
it is to be associated with violence, hatred and fear?
what brings you to this understanding? is it possible
that traditional prejudices about this are misguided?
Luis Castilo, after so understanding (typos/spelling corrected):
> ...the infrasexualism is very close related to all that
> kind of problems.
so to you "intersexuality" is a "problem" which you agree
should be 'fixed'? you agree with the various physicians
who surgically change the ambiguous genitals of babies so
as to resemble what they call 'normal', deciding for the
individual whether they will be 'male' or 'female'? why?
what brings you to this understanding? is it possible that
traditional prejudices about this are misguided?
> The primitive Male Female Elohim has nothing to do with it.
perhaps because the "primitive Male Female Elohim" is a
fiction designed to reflect stereotypes of physical birth
which are not accurately reflected in the biological
reality (this reality being a kind of spectrum from one
genital type ('penis') to another ('vagina').
you aren't really explaining why the stereotypes should be
considered 'healthy' and 'good' other than to assert this.
> The actual remains of the process of sex separation can be
> easily observe in our own bodies....
very true, and the degree of genital identity varies with
each individual and their specific chemical balance. some
children don't get physically distinguished into the
stereotypes you seem to be advocating. how you reconcile
this with your 'primitive Dyad' is indicative of how you
regard the NATURAL WORLD, since it doesn't fit neatly into
your tidy conceptual categories (constructed by society).
> That physical abnormality remind me what happens with some
> people that come with a normal set of sexual organs....
but this is the point, Luis: 'normal' is just an idea. the
reality is that there is a spectrum, and there is no reason
that 'average' should be equated with 'optimum' except in
the minds of the biased and ignorant.
the type of surgery you are supporting here should be
associated with GENITAL MUTILATION, which occurs within
many misguided religious cultures whose backwards moral
attitude includes the physical violation of infants for
their own perverted and sad conceptual agenda. where it
isn't warranted for continued healthy function, it is
SEXUAL ABUSE and should be prevented by strict laws.
let adults do what they WANT with their genitals. to
modify the bodies of children, especially infants who will
not play any part in the decision, is CRUELTY, and this
isn't about 'normality' except in the minds of those
who have helped to MAKE bodily variety a stigma.
I'm not just speaking about something I don't understand.
I was "circumcised" by 'helpful doctors' when I was an
infant, and it is well-known that there is now and was
then NO MEDICAL JUSTIFICATION FOR THIS PRACTICE. the same
is true with most cases of intersexual genital modification.
> ...we can agree, without the need of any profesional degree,
> that the suffering of that person and the suffering of the
> parents must be terrible.
but this "suffering" is typically not physical, and it is
COMPOUNDED by the ignorant stigma associated with not having
"normal" genitals. YOU are perpetuating this ignorance,
through your repetition of it, and the mythology you are
perpetuating in association with sexual mysticism adds
fuel to prejudicial fires.
> Of course the medicine try to fix the problem, in the same
> way that a lot of effort aim the founding of the cure for cancer.
> But........what is going on here? Why some people have a
> genetic tendency to catch such abnormality? or cancer?
the ability to distinguish between "healthy function with
unusual form" and "functional problems" seems to be one
with which humans are having difficulty. judging a book
by its cover (PREJUDICE) is one of the more difficult
ethical errors we seem to be facing.
with the condition of intersexuality we are not talking
about something which is "catching" or even in many cases
a (physical) "problem". the 'problem' is in the minds of
the parents and the community which cannot accept the fact
that their gender roles are stereotyped beyond the naturally-
occurring birth forms.
that is, your exalted tidy "dyad" is a FICTION, organically,
where human beings are concerned, and those babies born with
ambiguous genitalia are EXCEPTIONS to your dogmas,
symbolically representing something for which you cannot
account, except to adjust your theology (thus my admittedly
facetious suggestion that they constitute your 'Satan' --
I tend to think of Satan as an Hermaphrodite and server
Hir as my religion, so I'm a bit biased in this area ;>).
> What is in fact the genetic information that an individual
> brings from conception? Why such genetic information and
> not another one?..............bud luck? It is our genetic
> pool a kind of lottery?
no, it is a spectrum of combination influenced by what we,
in our ignorance, regard as 'random events'.
> I believe , according with some esoteric traditions, that
> our genetic information is a vehicle of the Law of Karma.
> In other words , what we are at the moment of conception
> is not randomly. Our present life is the consequences of
> what what we were before.............
and here is one of the real problems of this karma ideology:
it can lead to people blaming someone THEY consider to be a
'victim' of something which they don't understand. it can
lead to a moral condemnation due to ignorance of a phenomenon
which surpasses their biological knowledge. here is a CLEAR
example of xenophobia and the amplification of it which the
ideas about "karmic influences from previous births" can
promote. it is very sad and I oppose it.
> And intersexuality as many other physical and psychological
> diseases are increasing exponentially....
please substantiate your claim that
1) intersexuality is a disease
2) it is increasing exponentially
> and all we see around us is a human race dying slowly
> without hope.
please explain how many people have died from intersexuality.
also contrast and compare the number of deaths related to
the 'fixing' of this 'problem' (including suicides of those
whose forced sexual reassignment has inspired serious
depression).
> Those who have study seriously White Tantrism and
> practice it, know that sexual abuse is the source of
> the decadence of our race,
unfortunately those who make claims about White Tantrism
don't seem to know much about biology, even while also
making claims about biology, combining it with fantasy
speculation about 'the karmic justification of travesty'.
> and that is why I do not have personal problems of
> talking openly about infrasexualism, because if the
> word can be use wrongly, also the silence can make us
> accomplice of a crime.
you may well talk openly about it, but you are associating
a jumble of different human social behaviours, physical
atypicalitions, diseases, and forms of violence. your
association is based on ignorance and prejudice, apparently
derived from outdated and disproven biological standards.
all in the support of your favoured mythology.
> When we talk of the primitive Elohim, we are talking in
> fact of a human race that was not even entirely physical,
> a race of Super-Men, a race of conscious people. The
> separation of sexes mark the begining of the
> materialization of the physical world, event that happens
> according with all the great occultists, millions of years
> ago in the third root race Lemur.
there is no evidence for these 'root races'. they were
perpetuated by Blavatsky and her Theosophical Society. they
are examples of bigotry, are associated with Hitlerian ideas
of racial supremacy, and Neitzschean elitist concepts quite
probably extending beyond his original intention (in the
realm of genetics).
"all the great occultists" do not agree on this point. if
you'd like to substantiate at least this last claim with a
quote from the occultists you consider "great" who DID
agree with your assertion I'd like to see it. thanks.
nagasiva
austrianatheist
Souther...@webtv.net (Savannah & Chase) wrote:
> How can it be "silly nonsense?" Rituals such as the Maithuna exist as
> meditation incorporating intercourse, leading to altered states and
> Nirvana. Certainly there has to be other forms (Eastern and Western)
> using masturbation.
>
meditation incorporating intercourse? is there really such a hing?
cool! but only one thing: i only want the intercourse, not the
meditation! hehehehehehehehehehe!
jones.ii...@gmail.com
Try studying Baba Dez's book "Sacred Sexual Healing: The SHAMAN Method of Sex Magic". http://www.amazon.com/Sacred-Sexual-Healing-SHAMAN-Method/dp/B002B3AOR8
It has a few in there.