Reality and Character of Grimoire Spirits (Verum Silence Breakage)
nocTifer
HAPPY ERIS DAY, chaos..., revelation of a long-kept secret.
hi Poke-Gnome! hey there Ka! nice thread!!
Poke/"Gnome d Plume" <Gnome...@aol.com>:
#>#* As above, so below--remember? The Goetia spirits (and demons)
#>#* are not *just in your mind.* They are a lot older, bigger and
#>#* more knowledgeable than *you* are
if I work up a new directory and call it "Evil Spirit Book",
will they necessarily be older because 'we all tie into the
forces of our deep minds'? i.e. is there some archetypal
theory that lies behind this magico-mysticalizing? "the
goetia" is the rough equivalent of "black magic". more than
one grimoire sports this sort of ascription (from "True
Black Magic" to any number of other identifications).
"As above, so below", comparably, is a somewhat ambiguous
phrase from the Emerald Tablet of Hermetica. it may give
the impression that one is 'made in the image of God', or
'subject to the movements and conjunctions of the stars',
or 'coterminus with the cosmos, despite appearances', or
yet again 'the same after another fashion'.
when Poke talks about "The Goetia spirits (and demons)"
is he necessarily referring to the same set of objects or
subjective components? if I 'tame' them will they become
tame for *everybody* thereafter? or is this some kind of
helpful psychological trick that gets me integrated, and
the temporary consideration of disparate energies truly
an artifice for some subjective effect that I achieve?
where do the "Above" and the "Below" each leave off?
this is in no wise obvious to all mages. do we contain
the same interiors, the wide world just an apparently
separate physical fabulosity our brain-minds can hardly
assimilate? if so, then said spirits may be coincident.
if not, and they extend no farther than our interiors,
then each may establish their own relationship to these
presumed spirits, with possibly to a different *set* of
them within each of us. the answer is unclear.
Ka:
#># No, they're not. They may have fooled you to believe
#># they are "older, bigger and more knowledgeable than
#># *you* are" but i now know better. I am their Creator
#># and they shall adore me or feel the fire burning from
#># my eyes.
Gnome/Poke:
#>* That's fine. You can have it that way in your universe
#>* because it is *your universe*, and by the farthest
#>* reach of Hermetic philosophy, you are God, so all your
#>* rebellious spirits are under your control and are
#>* inferior to you in knowledge, power and wisdom.
inside out? outside in? are they more knowledgeable and
older or are we more so because we're some kind of God?
the ascription of "God" is important to mysticoreligious
mages with an interest in discovering and/or becoming
said almighty; communing with or exploiting their power,
knowledge, and wisdom. when is evaluation fallacious?
Ka:
#> ...when i said i was their Creator i was not speaking
#> as "God", but as a human.
distinction. note: here human is not "God". this isn't
followed by semi-pantheist God-lovers as from India where
"I am God" (obliquely even "Thou art that") is met with
nods of approval and acknowledgement. what does the
identification of human and god (/God) warrant to those
who have "realized it"? should we all obey their command?
#> If i create a thoughtform then i am its Creator....
the philosophic conundrum of "Creation" (as ex nihilo)
is an old one. "There is nothing new under the Sun"
runs the contrary thought-train. even modern science
seems to affirm the notion that we never really *make*
anything substantially, just shift forms around and
alter appearances. did you create that thoughtform?
or did it conform to your moulding like so much
clay as it arose in your consciousness?
you ask for reflection on:
#> ...the use of the number 72 in the goetia. Apart
#> from the 72 names of God in Judaism there are also
#> the 72 virgins of heaven in Islam.
this is inspiring and gives me reason to break silence.
The Goetia 72
72 x 5 = 360. it is a pentadinal division of a circle.
as such it may be related to zodiacal (12 x 30) or other
astronomical divisions (e.g. decans(10) or faces(5)).
as it results from a sexigesimal orientation, in 6 x 12,
and participates in square numerical resonance (36 x 2:
perhaps 1x1x1x1x2x2x2x3x3 and thus a relative of 108 in
that the latter is 1x2x2x3x3x3), its generative completion
*might* take the form of 288 (being 72 x 4). this triangle
is immediately broken down (as 1^4x2^5x3^2) by the creative.
these are *not* "chaotic" numbers. the fact that there are
72 beings in any particular set indicates something other
than corrosion, entropy, and 'evil' per se. one may make
all manner of contention as to the ascription of 'evil'
to *odd* numbers, comparatively, though this merely gives
an indication of one's own biases and predilections (on
account that being able to reduce them implies their
malleability and ultimate composite form).
as such, analyzing these "goetic" spirits by said number
character I am not left with the impression that they
are by their composition dangerous or evil. it is far
more likely that they are, by this character alone, some
cosmic retinue (compare the 12 disciples of the Solar
Christ or the 64 dakini dancing around Cosmic Siva).
The True Grimoire's 83
I am afforded an understanding in this analysis of some
comparable demons whose character and names are seldom
spoken in this forum, one of whose company did I seek
out on 9/9/99 (an escalation of Satanism in numeric
resonance) for the purpose of comraderie, pact-making,
and coalescence against non-Satanic interests: that
of the demon BEELZEBUTH (/Beelzeboul/others).
while to date I have described my enterprise as being
"a goetic variant", those who are familiar with Goetic
spirits would know that Beelzebuth/Beelzeboul is not
one of the spirits contained within the Lemegeton.
instead, it is part of the True Grimoire, and today I
make it more plain, in combination with commentary that
its origins have greater *numerical* tuning with the
forces of "evil" or chaos per se (trintary, pentadinal,
and resonant with the number of magic (83:: 8+3=> 11).
while the 72 goetics may be said to be 'radial' and
astronomical in their geometry or symbolism, the demons
of "The True Grimoire" ("Grimorium Verum") have the
following described hierarchy:
[from the Grimorium Verum or True Grimoire]
===========================================================================
SUPERIORS (3)
--------
Lucifer (2) | Beelzebuth (2) | Astaroth (2)
Satanackia (45)/ | Tarchimache/ | Sagatana/
CHIEFS (4) Agalierap (1) | Flurity | Nesbiros (2)
Serguthy Elelogap | Hael
Heramael Sergulath (8)
Trimasael Proculo
Sustugriel (teaches magic) Haristum
+41** more Brulefer
Pentagony
INFERIORS (18) Aglasis
--------- Sidragosam
Clauneck, Musisin, Bechaud, Minoson
Frimost, Klepoth, Khil, Bucon
Mersilde, Clisthert, Sirchade
Segal, Hicpacth, Humots,
Frucissiere, Guland, Surgat,
Morail, Fruitimere, Huictigaras
=========================================================================
(from Shah*)
not only are demons from the True Grimoire described as less easily
discerned in any radial symmetry, they are less well-known, and no
pictures of them are famous. their skills or strengths are given in
the grimoire itself (e.g. "teaches magic" above), and there appear
to be 83!** of them, which is the next highest prime *over* 9^2. this
is a far less easy structure to analyze as to its basis. it decidedly
is NOT astronomical in its composition, and nothing appears to be
known as to the demons that are subject to the rule of Beelzebuth,
with whom I had conference (if there are in fact any under hir).
the form is described as TRINITARIAN, ruled by well-known demons
who are associated with Cosmic Rebellion and Fall (the name of the
demon Beelzebuth actually equatable to 'Lord of the Earth' -- thus
drawing my attention as the Marshall of the Armies of Darkness;
see
http://www.luckymojo.com/avidyana/shaitan/marshalling.9909
http://www.luckymojo.com/avidyana/shaitan/marshalling.9910
which will be revised now after this 4.167 years of silence).
under Lucifer is a composite *49* (7^2) demons. often in occult
circles this number is taken as feminine, sometimes an escalation
of Venus, for whom the name Lucifer is indeed used as nickname.
under Beelzebuth are said to be two demons, one of whose sigils
(Tarchimache) is not even included for contact*. neither are
provided underlings and thus the set comprises 3 demons.
under Astaroth (who *is* #29 demon in the Lesser Key of Solomon),
there are a total of *13* demons. an additional 18 demons are
assigned to "Duke Syrach", implied as a subsidiary of Astaroth
(but as yet unclear to me where this Duke is to be situated --
corrections very welcomed as I sort through this).
ie is my suspicion that this spirit-structure is in fact inferred by
the author and may have no solid basis, being the best that could
be understood at the time. possibly the mage wasn't capable of coming
to comprehend the notion of a demonic anarchy. such implications were
certainly part of my general conclusions drawn from my encounters.
#> Do you agree
#> that this is related to the... outdated view...
#> that the Universe (or Big Mind as you put it)
#> revolves around the Earth one degree every 72 years?
it is *very* difficult not to understand these spirits as somehow
related to astronomical degrees or division (equal!) of the sky,
or the cosmic entirety (regions of dominion or domain of rule).
#> Galileo and Science has proven this belief to be in error
#> so what does that mean for these myths/beliefs that were
#> built upon this error?
once one reduces the "As above, so below" significance to a
strictly psychological mysticoreligious dissection of the
cosmos for an integration system, one may be faced with
the outmodedness of the magical tool. this is what you are
pointing out and with good cause. I look forward to reading
more and trying to figure that out. my own invocations have
not really involved goetic demons in the Lemegetonian sense.
#> The Church had to eventually give up its childish beliefs
#> but what about Goetic magicians?
this is a very good objection to the machinations of goetic
theurges. there *are* 72 5-degree divisions of the cosmic
round as seen from Terra Firma, however, so there is geometric
and astronomic resonance that pertains to this system which may
be considered important in dealing with these specific spirits.
what the character of the spirits might be and whether they are
in fact demonic is reasonably challenged. what other demnic
grimoires might be contrasted with it beyond the True Grimoire
that explain the demons as adhering to other structures and
orders of hierarchy?
#> You might say, "Ahhh but it works!", but if "making it work"
#> means having a belief in Illusions then surely this can only
#> be seen as a distraction along ones path?
this may also be said for the Planets of the Ancients and the
Music of the Spheres which were thought to surround and rotate
about Terra Firma (the 'Chaldean' set of the Greeks). the work
of Agrippa in consolidating this and others before him (I'll
have some more to add in the coming months which about planet
and kamea attributions which *preceded* Agrippa's presentation,
from an essay by JLidaka) must also be questioned as to its use.
undergoing a cosmology shift, how much of the old *can* be used
for the purposes of magic, reliably?
#> What if i don't want any "Rebellious Spirits" in "My
#> Universe", is that allowed also? Or is your (or
#> DuQettes') teaching that we are all "Hardwired" with
#> these 72 spirits correct?
are they merely known as "goetic" because they are associated
with astrocosmic function and therefore COMPETE WITH THE
COSMOLOGY OF THOSE WHO PRIMARILY REGARD THEM AS DEMONIC
(Christians?)? or is there some reason to think that they are
antagonistic to anyone save those who antagonize them? the
mandalesque composition of the spiritual ranks seem to give a
magician reason to utilize them for something mysticoreligious.
#> If so then does this mean that even people in China or
#> India have these 72 "rebellious spirits"?
they might make use of said spirits for that purpose. if the
spirits transcend human beings in some sence, perhaps they'll
be helpful in some mystical integration using the whole of the
grimoire in question (even regardless of their overall character).
perfe...@msn.com (Magickal Nature):
# perhaps there is a Kabbalistic [parallel] as well (more easily
# seen in taro.)
32 (2^5) into 72 (2^3x3^2)? sounds messy. :> I'm game.
78 it 72? 77? I don't follow your implications. 22?
#> Do you think, and this is a serious question, it is
#> correct that after experiencing what is called the
#> KCHGA one needs to evoke any demons at all?
the operations of the mage will include what are necessary
the complete fulfillment of the Great Work. each Magus is
likely to follow a different trajectory and therefore give
hir methods and sequential works will vary by combination.
some commonalities ('Adventures') are sometimes drawn out
*amongst* mages, however, and the Knowledge and Conversation
of the Holy Guardian Angel (K&C/HGA) is one of these. I can
inform you that to my knowledge the *evocation of demons*
was and will probably never be a part of my activities.
this is probably in part or in whole because my HGA is
one I know Hir is The Queen of Demons. it was my task at
the appointed time (99/9/9) to marshall the Armies of
Darkness for the defense of Satan against humans.
balance (Crowley) left for review at a later date.
Hail Kali! Hail Eris! Hail Beelzebuth! Hail Satan!
nocTifer
apologies for any misattributions.
catherine yronwode
>
> 50040229 vii om -- <=============== (!) 49990909
>
> HAPPY ERIS DAY, chaos..., revelation of a long-kept secret.
Eris day -- the day Sophie learned to enjoy chewing on
nyla-bells.
I don't have a lot comments to this long post, so i shall snip to
the few points that did provoke my responses.
> hi Poke-Gnome! hey there Ka! nice thread!!
I agree, this has been an interesting thread.
> Poke/"Gnome d Plume" <Gnome...@aol.com>:
> #>#* As above, so below--remember? The Goetia spirits (and demons)
> #>#* are not *just in your mind.* They are a lot older, bigger and
> #>#* more knowledgeable than *you* are
This is a belief and as such need not be questioned.
> if I work up a new directory and call it "Evil Spirit Book",
> will they necessarily be older because 'we all tie into the
> forces of our deep minds'? i.e. is there some archetypal
> theory that lies behind this magico-mysticalizing?
Poke has openly said he is a Jungian. No need to ask him another
way if he still is a Jungian. Take it for granted.
> when Poke talks about "The Goetia spirits (and demons)"
> is he necessarily referring to the same set of objects or
> subjective components? if I 'tame' them will they become
> tame for *everybody* thereafter?
What a cool idea! This would make a nice plot for a film -- the
guy who spends his entire life taming demons for the sake of all
humanity.
But that aside, you are facing the same issue that appears in
trance possession religions -- the bilocation and inconsistency
of a spiritual entity. In Santeria these inconsistent forms are
called "roads" or "caminos" -- there are dozens of caminos for
each orisha (spirit being). We heard something today on NPR about
the historical evolution of Jesus from a suffering person to a
feminine ideal, thence to a muscular ideal, and so forth. The
same is true of demons and of the gods and spirits of pantheistic
religions. In India there are dozens of manifestations of Kali
and Durga and Ambika and Uma and Parvati. In Europe there are
dozens of manifestations of the Blessed Virgin Mary as white,
black, happy, sad, suffering, maternal, grieving, and so forth. I
assume the same is true for demons.
> Ka:
> #># No, they're not. They may have fooled you to believe
> #># they are "older, bigger and more knowledgeable than
> #># *you* are" but i now know better. I am their Creator
> #># and they shall adore me or feel the fire burning from
> #># my eyes.
>
> Gnome/Poke:
> #>* That's fine. You can have it that way in your universe
> #>* because it is *your universe*, and by the farthest
> #>* reach of Hermetic philosophy, you are God, so all your
> #>* rebellious spirits are under your control and are
> #>* inferior to you in knowledge, power and wisdom.
You see? Poke, like most pantheists, is comfortable and
non-threatened by the concept of varying caminos for his spirits.
This is brilliant. Thanks.
> The True Grimoire's 83
>
> I am afforded an understanding in this analysis of some
> comparable demons whose character and names are seldom
> spoken in this forum, one of whose company did I seek
> out on 9/9/99 (an escalation of Satanism in numeric
> resonance) for the purpose of comraderie, pact-making,
> and coalescence against non-Satanic interests: that
> of the demon BEELZEBUTH (/Beelzeboul/others).
>
> while to date I have described my enterprise as being
> "a goetic variant", those who are familiar with Goetic
> spirits would know that Beelzebuth/Beelzeboul is not
> one of the spirits contained within the Lemegeton.
> instead, it is part of the True Grimoire, and today I
> make it more plain, in combination with commentary that
> its origins have greater *numerical* tuning with the
> forces of "evil" or chaos per se (trintary, pentadinal,
> and resonant with the number of magic (83:: 8+3=> 11).
>
> while the 72 goetics may be said to be 'radial' and
> astronomical in their geometry or symbolism, the demons
> of "The True Grimoire" ("Grimorium Verum") have the
> following described hierarchy:
>
> [from the Grimorium Verum or True Grimoire]
> ========================================================================
> SUPERIORS (3)
> --------
> Lucifer (2) | Beelzebuth (2) | Astaroth (2)
> Satanackia (45)/ | Tarchimache/ | Sagatana/
> CHIEFS (4) Agalierap (1) | Flurity | Nesbiros (2)
> Serguthy Elelogap | Hael
> Heramael Sergulath (8)
> Trimasael Proculo
> Sustugriel (teaches magic) Haristum
> +41** more Brulefer
> Pentagony
> INFERIORS (18) Aglasis
> --------- Sidragosam
> Clauneck, Musisin, Bechaud, Minoson
> Frimost, Klepoth, Khil, Bucon
> Mersilde, Clisthert, Sirchade
> Segal, Hicpacth, Humots,
> Frucissiere, Guland, Surgat,
> Morail, Fruitimere, Huictigaras
> =======================================================================
> (from Shah*)
>
> not only are demons from the True Grimoire described as less easily
> discerned in any radial symmetry, they are less well-known, and no
> pictures of them are famous. their skills or strengths are given in
> the grimoire itself (e.g. "teaches magic" above), and there appear
> to be 83!** of them, which is the next highest prime *over* 9^2. this
> is a far less easy structure to analyze as to its basis. it decidedly
> is NOT astronomical in its composition, and nothing appears to be
> known as to the demons that are subject to the rule of Beelzebuth,
> with whom I had conference (if there are in fact any under hir).
Thanks again. I agree with you that the 83 demons of the Grimoire
Verum seem far less rationally organized than the 72 demons of
the Lemegeton. yet both are sid to be evil.
Did you notice that 83 minus 72 equals 11?
That's about all i have to say on this except thanks again for
brining out some of the OTHER grimoires.
Happy Eris day.
(For those who don't know us, February 29th was the birthday of a
beloved Portuguese Water Dog, Eris the Doggess of Discord. You
may see her picture and read about her at
http://wwww.yronwode.com/eris.html )
Cordially,
cat yronwode
nocTifer
nocTifer:
>> when Poke talks about "The Goetia spirits (and demons)"
>> is he necessarily referring to the same set of objects or
>> subjective components? if I 'tame' them will they become
>> tame for *everybody* thereafter?
sri catyananda <c...@luckymojo.com>:
> What a cool idea! This would make a nice plot for a film -- the
> guy who spends his entire life taming demons for the sake of all
> humanity.
possibly in part the compassionate interest of Chud rites in
Vajrayana Buddhism (corrections welcomed -- the monks feed the
demons with their own bodies as I understand it). inasmuch as
this ties into psychology theories and integration within a
Transpersonal perspective, I think an examination of spirits
with a more compassionate and tolerant attitude might be best
for all species of entity (human and non).
> But that aside, you are facing the same issue that appears in
> trance possession religions -- the bilocation and inconsistency
> of a spiritual entity. In Santeria these inconsistent forms are
> called "roads" or "caminos" -- there are dozens of caminos for
> each orisha (spirit being).
you're positing different forms for the goetic spirits in the
same way that the orishas or lwa have different faces or forms.
that may make demons into more potent spirits than they are
usually supposed. I don't disagree. my impression is that the
rudimentary and simplistic understanding of demons in general
is indicative of a strained relationship with them. we may
then wonder what other relations with them are possible and
what the benefits or detriments of such relations might be.
> We heard something today on NPR about
> the historical evolution of Jesus from a suffering person to a
> feminine ideal, thence to a muscular ideal, and so forth. The
> same is true of demons and of the gods and spirits of pantheistic
> religions. In India there are dozens of manifestations of Kali
> and Durga and Ambika and Uma and Parvati. In Europe there are
> dozens of manifestations of the Blessed Virgin Mary as white,
> black, happy, sad, suffering, maternal, grieving, and so forth.
> I assume the same is true for demons.
the followup issue, then, is whether the spirits or gods appear
as they do for certain people because of who those people are
or what they do. there is a convention, for example, that the
spirits or gods will not appear if they aren't given the right
offerings (foods/smokes/sigils/etc.). some of them will not
appear unless the caller is a priest of the religion, it is
said, or performs the proper preparation or ritual activities.
in the case of demons, often the demons are described in very
strict terms as beings who wish to possess human beings (giving
religious like Christians incentive to employ their god Jesus
as a means of exorcizing or casting them out -- sometimes even
without the individual asking to be so 'remedied' -- one might
describe this god as antagonistic to other spirits therefore).
where did the term "possession" come from? is it a condemnation
term originally used to marginalize non-Christian religions as
involved with coercive and "evil" spirits? are there exorcist
orishas or lwa with similar functions as the Jesus spirit? is
the description of angels as requiring INvocation and demons
necessitating for safety purposes Evocation also constructed
from within this particular cosmological mindset?
if so, then Poke's relationship in worshipping the spirits that
were identified as gods by some and demons by Christians may be
completely understandable. one might thereafter wonder whose
task it could be to assist the goetic spirits, whether they are
just misunderstood, whether they might be valuably worshipped,
if they have forms which are not as horrendous as represented
by the grimoire describing them, etc.
in fact, the reverse might also be true. spirits understood to
be gods might have "demonic appearances". appearance ITSELF may
be a function of interface and relative friendliness content.
an inverso-Christian Satanist might be described as
best evoking the Yahweh demon taking precautions
to surround themself with goetic names fearsome
to the Yahweh cultists and the Yahweh god,
power tools inimical to the spirits of
Christianity, etc.
this is to some degree what I mean when I describe my God as
"Queen of Demons". not only is She, as depicted by Her fervent
devotees, a Protectress and Fount of Benefaction, but to those
who know Her caustic side or oppose Her, She is the Great
Beastie from the Infernal Depths, omnipotent as Time and the
Decimator of Those Who Tangle With Her What Are Not Ready.
one might speculate that the power of the spirit or god, if
not the familiarity with said being, was displayed by the
number and variety of such 'caminos' or appearances.
> ...Poke, like most pantheists, is comfortable and
> non-threatened by the concept of varying caminos
> for his spirits.
while he doesn't always put it this way, I agree.
[massive snippage, RE the True Grimoire:]
> ...I agree with you that the 83 demons of the Grimoirium
> Verum seem far less rationally organized than the 72 demons
> of the Lemegeton. yet both are said to be evil.
here's where the "evil" begins to interfere with our relation
to the beings in question. "they are said to be evil". who was
it that originated the evaluation of these beings? if we are
to take them seriously as objective spirits (rather than some
subjective energy that one might integrate into oneself), then
the attitude and perspective of the evaluator will necessarily
colour perceptions and approach to those we're encountering if
we take their report at face value without due consideration.
in part this is why I keep asking people what their experience
is when they attempt to encounter these and other spirits. if
we can't observe the interaction and record it, as it takes
place subjectively, we can at least
1) observe what the individuals do when they are in
touch with the beings in question -- whether they
delight in malevolence or beneficence, whether
they seem to like destruction or creativity,
whether they exhibit certain personality-traits
we could composite into a character-portrait
of the being as has been done for spirits
(including gods, demons, djinns, etc.) for aeons.
2) obtain reports from those who claim to have had
an encounter with such beings, particularly those
going by the same name and taking note of the
differing methods used to encounter them -- does
the forced appearance and trapping of them inside
symbolic cages predispose them to be ugly and
coercively nasty to those who use this method?
perhaps the reputation and character of some demons is in
part the result of precisely these types of reports. if so,
the issue of whether different caminos or appearances of
spirits take place becomes immediately important, and the
dogmatic repetition of some anonymous report should be
considered unhelpful *except* to those of like character
or background/belief/allegiance.
> Did you notice that 83 minus 72 equals 11?
I did not! thanks for pointing this out!
and I'm the one that usually pays attention to numbers/math!
> That's about all i have to say on this except thanks again for
> bringing out some of the OTHER grimoires.
my pleasure. there's a handful that have received the attention
of Hermetic and ceremonial mages during the course of years.
I'm finding it valuable to analyze the character of spirits as
described by religious, whether they do or do not originate in
the religion in question, and come to understand how they might
indeed vary in their appearance to different means of address.
my intention is to construct a truly global demonology which
is devoid generalizations without basis.
y
r B
o l b
n e e
w s a
o s s
d e t
e d !
.com@nagasiva
nocTifer
matthewwinston
"nocTifer" <yronwode.com@nagasiva> wrote in message
news:1sJ5c.3$Fo4...@typhoon.sonic.net...
> 50040316 vii om kali
>
> nocTifer:
> >> when Poke talks about "The Goetia spirits (and demons)"
> >> is he necessarily referring to the same set of objects or
> >> subjective components? if I 'tame' them will they become
> >> tame for *everybody* thereafter?
>
> sri catyananda <c...@luckymojo.com>:
> > What a cool idea! This would make a nice plot for a film -- the
> > guy who spends his entire life taming demons for the sake of all
> > humanity.
>
> possibly in part the compassionate interest of Chud rites in
> Vajrayana Buddhism (corrections welcomed -- the monks feed the
> demons with their own bodies as I understand it). inasmuch as
> this ties into psychology theories and integration within a
> Transpersonal perspective, I think an examination of spirits
> with a more compassionate and tolerant attitude might be best
> for all species of entity (human and non).
>
an entity will show you how real this is, they do become calm, but very
warned of the dangers asscociated with them; remember they are demons,
nothing more.
Hermeticus
ftitktpatgfa
> On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 22:21:18 -0600, "matthewwinston"
> <ozzy...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"nocTifer" <yronwode.com@nagasiva> wrote in message
> >news:1sJ5c.3$Fo4...@typhoon.sonic.net...
> >> 50040316 vii om kali
> >>
> >> nocTifer:
> >> >> when Poke talks about "The Goetia spirits (and demons)"
> >> >> is he necessarily referring to the same set of objects or
> >> >> subjective components? if I 'tame' them will they become
> >> >> tame for *everybody* thereafter?
> >>
> >> sri catyananda <c...@luckymojo.com>:
> >> > What a cool idea! This would make a nice plot for a film -- the
> >> > guy who spends his entire life taming demons for the sake of all
> >> > humanity.
Nagasiva,
What possible benefits might a Vodou loa, or lwa derive from
receiving an offering of rum, or tobacco? What do spirits need
from such things?
Could it be that they merely require honor from their
worshippers, or is there something more? Perhaps an exchange of
energy between the worshipper, and the god?
Regards,
Blessed Buffalo Butt
Sus
not bring an offering is just impolite (as liable as people, i suppose, to
think you're bringing bad news). They live overtly in our rituals, covertly
in our ignorance. Beware the dead, befriend the dead - this is a basic Pagan
tenet. The Vajra-twist is, I think, a matter of teaching the dead the way
home, one must be careful not to say, go away you're bugging me, so it is
presented as relief, and this life (even Nirvana is not escaped(?)) as
suffering.
Sus
MDHJWH
An infinite number of gods becoming demons. An endless stream of the dead.
Where will you get the time or strength?
Ayn Marx
Gnome d Plume
wrote:
****They enjoy such offerings vicariously. What they really
enjoy is the opportunity to communicate with you. The physical
offerings are symbolic---much like giving flowers. You can't eat
flowers or take them to the bank, but they are pretty and it is
the thought that counts. *****
G.
angelicusrex
Crysanthrumums are used in salads and bee pollen is a good supplement,
flowers like dandelions have been used as an edible for years...once upon a
time Tulip Bulbs built the Dutch economy and were worth more than gold. Tue
Spirits of God, which are the only type which can help us do anything, need
no sacrifice, not even a Hallmark card. A simple thanks will do. Rum, dead
chickens, blood, flowers and tobacco are meaningless to them. What they want
is your Conscious acceptance of their presence in your life.
--
Namaste'
Saint 0;-)
"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a
miracle.
The other is as if everything is."
Albert Einstein
"Gnome d Plume" <Gnome...@unowhere.com> wrote in message
news:uv6g80ho6s61lbapq...@4ax.com...
catherine yronwode
> "Gnome d Plume" <Gnome...@unowhere.com> wrote
>
> > ftitkt...@yahoo.com (ftitktpatgfa) wrote:
> >
> > > What possible benefits might a Vodou loa, or lwa derive from
> > > receiving an offering of rum, or tobacco? What do spirits need
> > > from such things?
> > >
> > > Could it be that they merely require honor from their
> > > worshippers, or is there something more? Perhaps an exchange of
> > > energy between the worshipper, and the god?
> >
> > They enjoy such offerings vicariously. What they really
> > enjoy is the opportunity to communicate with you. The physical
> > offerings are symbolic [...]
>
> True Spirits of God, which are the only type which can help us do
> anything, need no sacrifice, not even a Hallmark card. A simple
> thanks will do. Rum, dead chickens, blood, flowers and tobacco
> are meaningless to them. What they want is your Conscious
> acceptance of their presence in your life.
It seems that angelicusrex is saying that because Voodoo loa ask
for sacrifices he believes that they are not "True Spirits of
God." In my opinion, he substitutes his religious dogma or creed
for knowledge and speaks from a propagandistic viewpoint, not
from personal experience, making him uniquely UNqualified to
reply to the original question about Voodoo.
I am not a Voodoo adherent, so i have added alt.religion.voodoo
to the crosspost list in the hope that someone from within that
religion will post a serious reply to the serious question
ftitktpatgfa asked: "What possible benefits might a Vodou loa, or
lwa derive from receiving an offering of rum, or tobacco?"
Cordially,
cat yronwode
Gnome d Plume
**** Actually he is one of those people who likes to argue
on petty side issues ("yes, some flowers can be eaten...".). The
act of providing a "sacrifice", i.e. "making" a sacrifice honors the
spirit and intensifies the invocation or evocation process by
making it more "real" to the subconscious mind, which cannot
differentiate between subjective and objective realities. Voodou
papas and mammas may not have degrees in psychology but
they know and use the theory by their own lights. ****
Gnome d Plume
angelicusrex
> It seems that angelicusrex is saying that because Voodoo loa ask
> for sacrifices he believes that they are not "True Spirits of
> God."
Actually you are conjecturing that Voudou Loa actually ask adherents for
anything. From what I understand a Voudoun priest hears from the Loa and
then tells the adherents what the Loa wants. This is not very different from
what Catholic priests do for their brand of Saints and Angels. The
Priesthood of Voudoun is very mysterious and it is very overbearing in many
cases, very few people actually hear from the Loas personally. My answer to
you is this. If a Loa needs a spiritual middleman to help it get what it
desires, it is NOT a true spirit of God or of Creator.
> In my opinion, he substitutes his religious dogma or creed
> for knowledge and speaks from a propagandistic viewpoint, not
> from personal experience, making him uniquely Unqualified to
> reply to the original question about Voodoo.
Actually this is your opinion, which is incorrect. I speak from direct
knowledge. I speak to God. God speaks to me. I speak to angels, angels speak
to me. I have spoken to them about these processes and have written a book
and several reams of material on the subject. I believe I am very qualified
to speak to any question on spirituality. So your vaunted opinion is less
than meaningless to me. You have given no indication you know anything of
spiritual matters or that you have some access to knowledge which others of
us do not.
I maintain we ALL can speak to God or the gods and the loas or spirits or
angels, or whatever you like to call them, anytime, without aid of any
middle men, without fear of "bad loas" or demons or possession, etc. I teach
this almost daily. Those religions and dogmas which use self-styled
"priests" and conjurers to deliver messages from Creator to their converts
are notorious for bilking people and for scaring the crap out of them.
> I am not a Voodoo adherent,
Then you really don't know what you are talking about, but have the audacity
to tell others that you think I do not know what I am talking about. Read
further, Cat. You might learn something.
It might "seem" like I am promoting my own religious dogma or beliefs over
and above those of Voudoun worshipers, however this is not true. People may
believe and worship as they see fit without help from me. God accepts all
form of worship. He simply does not desire it, promote it or need it.
However since I have no religion or dogmatic beliefs, rites, rituals or
focus at all, I still maintain that any True Spirit of the Creator, God, The
Great Spirit or whatever you like to call it, needs no sacrifice, asks for
no sacrifice and desires no sacrifice.
First of all sacrifice to them is pretty much of a moot point. In their
world they want for nothing. God is all, God is what fills them and makes
them peaceful and blissful. They have all the time, energy and knowledge
they need to help us. They help us not because we do things for them, or
sacrifice our good for them or to them, but simply because they LOVE us.
Those that love do not want or need to see chickens "slit up a treat," or
goats or cattle butchered, bled or burned. They don't need alcohol, as
alcohol does nothing for them. (They are higher than we can imagine, but
still in control). They do not need flowers, as our flowers wither and die,
our milk sours. They do not need our deaths, as our deaths are moot because
no one really dies. Everything here is an illusion. The cattle, the flowers,
the booze the blood, all changeable, friable, malleable.
This is not my "belief" this is TRUTH. It's what THEY told me. If you choose
not to believe it, fine. Most people live very well in illusion on a daily
basis for many thousands of life-times. Buddha knew that. Everyone arrives
at truth and enlightenment when they arrive. And it does not mean that
certain practices like Voudoun are not relevant or workable, they are. They
work. Everything we do to connect with spirit works. Every path is
acceptable to God. Everyone establishes the spiritual path they feel most
comfortable with. However if no path is doing much for you, you might
consider that I might be telling you the truth.
God loves you. God needs nothing from you. God does not need or desire
sacrifice. And no spirit which is worth its salt (so to speak) needs
anything either. Why? They know that you will arrive and be with them soon
enough and your eyes will be opened. In fact in their world you are already
there, have been there, will be there, and are arriving all at the same
time! Weird, I know. But it is the way it is.
Too long people from various NGs have fought over the Dogma and Belief
systems of others. Why? Why even mark anyone as being dogmatic or having a
strange or bad belief, unless that is what YOU believe yourself, that your
own dogma and beliefs are indeed better than mine? I am simply here to offer
the TRUTH. Mix it in with your own, or dispose of it. Voudoun might work for
you. Wicca might work for you. NeoPaganism might do the trick for you.
looking for faeries and the Elven folk might be your path to Knowledge.
Witchcraft, Ouija boards, Tarot cards, Astrology, Kabala studies, Hindu
Pantheism, any of these might be your ways, whomever is reading this. If
these things work for you, use them. Tell us about how they work. Meanwhile
I am just telling you how things work from the perspective of the Angels.
They think we are a little funny and kind of go overboard with our beliefs,
when they are RIGHT HERE WITH US now. But if youneed to twirl, dance, rock
back and forth, meditate, produce a mantra, slaughter a chicken, rub beads
or go to High Mass, by all means do so... but BELIEVE that there is someone
out there, invisible to you, who is going to help you. Otherwise it is all
useless.
--
Namaste'
Saint 0;-)
"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a
miracle.
The other is as if everything is."
Albert Einstein
"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:4088B704...@luckymojo.com...
> angelicusrex <whispe...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > "Gnome d Plume" <Gnome...@unowhere.com> wrote
> >
> > > ftitkt...@yahoo.com (ftitktpatgfa) wrote:
> > >
> > > > What possible benefits might a Vodou loa, or lwa derive from
> > > > receiving an offering of rum, or tobacco? What do spirits need
> > > > from such things?
> > > >
> > > > Could it be that they merely require honor from their
> > > > worshippers, or is there something more? Perhaps an exchange of
> > > > energy between the worshipper, and the god?
> > >
> > > They enjoy such offerings vicariously. What they really
> > > enjoy is the opportunity to communicate with you. The physical
> > > offerings are symbolic [...]
> >
> > True Spirits of God, which are the only type which can help us do
> > anything, need no sacrifice, not even a Hallmark card. A simple
> > thanks will do. Rum, dead chickens, blood, flowers and tobacco
> > are meaningless to them. What they want is your Conscious
> > acceptance of their presence in your life.
>
> cat yronwode
angelicusrex
simply informative. We can eat flowers. And in some places you can take
flowers to the bank in a manner of speaking. You can eat gold and silver
too. So what? The point was that these things mean something to us. Not to
Spirit. Why? Spirit created it all for us. So us sacrificing it for
Spiritual contact is moot. You are not giving anything to Spirit that it
doesn't already have.
But if you want to give spirits flowers, be my guest. In my opinion, they
are better off fed to other animals who might get a benefit from them.
--
Namaste'
Saint 0;-)
"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a
miracle.
The other is as if everything is."
Albert Einstein
"Gnome d Plume" <Gnome...@unowhere.com> wrote in message
news:qqoi801av42ifs8th...@4ax.com...
catherine yronwode
>
> Cat Yronwode wrote in:
>
> > It seems that angelicusrex is saying that because Voodoo loa ask
> > for sacrifices he believes that they are not "True Spirits of
> > God."
>
> Actually you are conjecturing that Voudou Loa actually ask adherents for
> anything. From what I understand a Voudoun priest hears from the Loa and
> then tells the adherents what the Loa wants. This is not very different from
> what Catholic priests do for their brand of Saints and Angels. The
> Priesthood of Voudoun is very mysterious and it is very overbearing in many
> cases, very few people actually hear from the Loas personally. My answer to
> you is this. If a Loa needs a spiritual middleman to help it get what it
> desires, it is NOT a true spirit of God or of Creator.
I do not agree with what you wrote here. The mounting of
congregants by Loa is not "very mysterious" for it takes place in
public ceremonies where all can see it, and rather than "very few
people actually hear[ing] from the Loas personally" the opposite
is the case, for the loa are speaking in public ceremonies, using
the bodies of congregants to form audible speech -- in fact the
only person who does NOT hear the loa speak is the person being
mounted, who is in a state of absent consciousness at the time.
See any reputable work on Voodoo for further details. A good
online site with many pages of basic information is The Vodou
Page at
http://members.aol.com/racine125/index1.html.
Cordially,
cat yronwode
Free Online Book
Hoodoo in Theory and Practice
http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html
MDHJWH
My answer to
> you is this. If a Loa needs a spiritual middleman to help it get what it
> desires, it is NOT a true spirit of God or of Creator.
By what criteria do you define any manifestation a 'true spirit of God
or of the Creator'
What would constitute prood of any such claim?
Some Toaists assert that everything in creation is a manifestation of
such.
Ayn Marx
angelicusrex
"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:4089F7ED...@luckymojo.com...
> I do not agree with what you wrote here.
You do not agree with me much on what I write anywhere. 0:-)
> The mounting of
> congregants by Loa is not "very mysterious" for it takes place in
> public ceremonies where all can see it,
What is seen by observers is people dancing like mad, frothing at the mouth,
having fits, pretending to have sexual congress, making passes at the crowd,
uttering prophecies, curses, songs, and sometimes nonsense and other things
which don't seem very inviting to me personally. But I thought you said you
didn't know anything about Voudoun?
> and rather than "very few
> people actually hear[ing] from the Loas personally" the opposite
> is the case, for the loa are speaking in public ceremonies, using
> the bodies of congregants to form audible speech -- in fact the
> only person who does NOT hear the loa speak is the person being
> mounted, who is in a state of absent consciousness at the time.
Seems like you knew a bit more than you let on. However, if one is mounted
personally by a Loa and gets no benefit, what is the point? Beings that need
to possess bodies in order to talk or perform acts are not True Spiritual
beings in my estimation. So what is your point here? You are not convincing
me I am wrong by telling me what your perceptions of a Voudoun ceremony are.
I have seen several. I have my own impressions and perceptions.
> See any reputable work on Voodoo for further details.
I have read more reputable works on Voudoun Religion than you have had hot
lunches. But thanks for the tip.
> A good
> online site with many pages of basic information is The Vodou
> Page at
> http://members.aol.com/racine125/index1.html.
because a Voudoun adherent has a website with information does not make it
applicable as a religion that I would either join or approve of. I respect
those who have true Voudoun beliefs. But I do not consider your telling me
what site to go to as being very important or in earnest.
It seems like just another post of yours that is trying desperately to make
me look like I don't know as much as you do. But since you said you knew
nothing, then all you really seem to know is a web address. Well, I can give
you web addresses for Catholics, for Buddhists, Hindus, or my own web
address. Does this make any or all of us suddenly reputable or worthy of
your consideration? No. You have your own leanings. Your own beliefs. And
dare I say it, your own dogmas. Yet here you are arguing with me about a
subject you claim to know nothing about because somehow you saw my name on a
post and just had to make a comment. The comment of course had to be
negative. (Because arguments we've had in the past have not gone all your
way).
Yet the argument here in NOT who knows more about Voudoun, but whether True
Spiritual Entities actually need any sort of sacrifice given to them. I say
they do not. Others here agree, that the sacrifice is nothing more than a
symbol of appreciation. "Like giving flowers." I agree with them. I do not
agree with your lambasting me as some sort of dogmatist for some religion
which you don't seem to like but cannot even name.
In short, I ask you this: Why do I not have the right to believe as I like
and to make comment as I see fit? Because I am a dogmatist or a believer in
something other than Voudoun? Or is it really because you don't like
anything I say, ever?
Now. I said a lot of things about Voudoun working for those who adhere to
it. I said that Paganism and Wicca and other paths were entirely valid. Yet
I did not hear one word from you about any of that. You simply have to make
sure that everyone knows that you think I do not know what I am talking
about. Even when what you are talking about you got from a web site which
may or may not be giving correct information about Voudoun from ALL sides.
angelicusrex
Ayn Marx "MDHJWH" <mdh...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
> My answer to
> > you is this. If a Loa needs a spiritual middleman to help it get what it
> > desires, it is NOT a true spirit of God or of Creator.
>
> By what criteria do you define any manifestation a 'true spirit of God
> or of the Creator'
The manifestation of any spirit that comes to give aid, respite, peace,
goodwill, love, or help to a human entity is a True Spirit of God. They seek
nothing from us. They desire nothing we have. They neither possess, nor do
they even need the use of a human body. If they appear to have a human body
it is an illusion, for our benefit. They are beings composed of the energy
of God, whatever that is, call it Light, or Force, or Power or whatever.
They have personalities and they have free will. However they never use
these things for any ill purpose against any person. Any beings not meeting
these criteria are not manifestations of True Spirits of God.
Being of God means being One with God. God is wholly good, eternally alive
and has no beginning nor end. God cannot be defined. God is not a being as
we think of beings. Parts or aspects of God are Truth, Life, Light,
Intelligence, Reason and Creativity. God and God's Spiritual Entities are
neither dogmatic, nor adhering to any man made religious belief or doctrine.
They are previous to all such things. They desire only that everyone find
and connect with God and become as they are. Any other motivation would
prove them to be Not of God, but of their own Ego.
> What would constitute prood of any such claim?
The proof (I accept you meant the word proof here, not prood...I get words
messed up too), is in the manifestation of the entity. If it asks you to do
something for it because it cannot do it for itself, then the Power of God
is not indwelling it. It would then be better to avoid it. If it says it
will give you something, authority, powers, knowledge, or anything in
exchange for a sacrifice, for blood, for use of your body, or others bodies;
if it says it will harm others for you, or curse others for you, or perform
tricks or miracles in exchange for anything, it simply is NOT a True Spirit
of God.
> Some Toaists assert that everything in creation is a manifestation of
> such.
I believe here you mean Taoists? Taoists do not have a "religious" dogma.
They are rather those who are on personal spiritual paths. Those on a true
spiritual path see everything and everyone as being One with God, as I do.
However 99.99999 percent of the human race has no concept of what this
means. Therefore they see God, Spirits, Angels and other things, like demons
and devils and monsters, elves, faeries, sprites, gnomes and what have you,
as being separate from God and from us. I would be more of a Taoist than a
typical Voudoun prtactitioner would be. I believe that the entities they
deal with are far from being True Spirits of God. I believe them to be Lost
Souls of human beings posing as "gods" in order to keep tasting things of
the flesh. For this boon, they give secrets and prophecies and curses or
lift curses which they themselves have implemented in people's lives. To me
it is not a True Spiritual Path. (It is rather a "Ghost Religion" based
pretty much in ancestor worship from Ghana and other African states and
mixed up with European Sorcery, Catholicism and some ancient Carib Indian
practices). But that is because I also believe I already found mine. However
I have yet to hear one word from one Voudoun practitioner that would make me
change my viewpoint on that particular belief system. I am sure I will get
some hostile reactions from other people though, even though I have said
outright that Voudoun WORKS for Voudoun believers. Everything is relative.
For my own part, I do not want to be possessed by inhabitants of the Kingdom
of God. I want to possess the keys to the kingdom.
MDHJWH
> Being of God means being One with God. God is wholly good, eternally alive
> and has no beginning nor end. God cannot be defined.
Cannot be defined? You just did.
Ayn Marx.
Anatid Bonecki
Excuse me. But in the English Language a definition is of the WHOLE,
not of parts. I described various aspects or parts of God. But since
God's aspects are infintite they are as such, unlistable, indefinable,
and too vast for the human mind to even consider. So no, I have not
defined God. Those specific parts which can be of use to or are
necessary to us are miniscule when you consider how vast the Universe
is. I described only three of these parts. One of which is that God
has no beginning nor an end. Please define for me something which has
no beiginning or end and cannot be defined. One can only say such a
thing would be infinite, eternal, and in the end unknowable to those
of us who are finite and knowable.
So what is your point? My point, which I maintain: is that if the
aspects of God which humans deal with are those of God being wholly
good, eternally alive (that is never dying and not having been born,
i.e. non-physical and non-created)and endless then any other thing,
which is not wholly good, has been created and or has a life-span of
some sort, (i.e. sprites, gods, faeries, etc. which though have
seemeingly extended lives are often reported to be beings which can be
destroyed, unmade or which may die after hundreds of centuries) are
NOT True Spirits of God. Whatever they are is moot since our intention
is not to define what a True Spirit is, but simply to recognize a True
Spirit from one which is not True. In other words, I do not have to
define what "level" means when I build a home. I just need to know
what level IS.
Saint
>
> Ayn Marx.