D.L's.
Cardican
steal. I enjoyed the reading! And it was educational.
I haven't seen anything out there of late concerning D.L.'s. Heaven knows
there are a lot of technical ideas on this item listed in a far reaching number
of books/personal libraries.
Something in this area is worthy of sharing/posting. Any of your particular
favorites (sources) would be interesting topics to post on the board. Also,
any from those who may wish advice from board members in this particular field
would be welcomed as well.
One of the ones I like is the "side strick". Simple, but direct. (Just to get
things started.)
Richard (The other one!)
John LeBlanc
Cardican wrote in message <19990823132634...@ng-bh1.aol.com>...
Hello (the other) Richard. :)
Aside from the distinction between a DL and a DTO (terms most people I know
use interchangeably), I'll poke in my two cents.
The first DL/DTO I learned was from someone who believed it was absolutely
necessary to make a fancy move from it, snapping and popping to "prove" I was
only doing what I claimed I was doing. It actually looked like I was going out
of my way to prove I wasn't doing something I obviously was. Gee, how magical.
I learned the next "revision" from Frank Garcia -- bevel; get ready; pause;
then do it.
Then I read Vernon. Simple is good. It isn't easy, but it is good. Dai
Vernon's work (well, actually Vernon described by the hand and mind of Lewis
Ganson) led me to Erdnase. Which is another post for another day.
And then I found Martin Nash.
Like the majority of people chasing after the "perfect pass", for years I've
chased after the "perfect strike". Martin assured me it, and a flawless
middle, are simple a matter of practicing until I get it. (Sure. Easy for him
to say... :) I can say without hesitation that the Nash Method is worthy of
attention and practice (as is anything else I've ever read of his. Surprise of
surprises, The Charming Cheat's books I own were written by Stephen Minch.)
It's far too easy -- at least it was, and still is, to me -- to sometimes miss
the forest for the trees; concentrating on the move rather than what it is
supposed to look like to a normal person. Which is to say, it shouldn't look
like "anything". Push over a card, turn it over to display it, turn it back
over. Move on.
For me, a DL/DTO should not be a Hot Shot Cut. Which is essentially how I got
started with the move. Now it *almost* looks like I do nothing. I am so proud.
:^)
John LeBlanc
jwleblanc (at) earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~jwleblanc
Cardican
a scolding! (Strick/Strike! Ha!)
Anyway, DL's/DTO's are simply the turning over of an item(s). Correct? And I
agree, what does "snap", "crackle", "pop" afterwards prove? Overselling,
perhaps.
You mentioned the "Professor". I am not familiar with all of his work, but I
suspect his repertoire on DL/DTO was extensive.
I "think" you may have been in contact with one of his more interesting ones,
outlined in the "Stars of Magic" series.
That "push off" is very nice. However, I read an item where Darwin Ortiz uses
a "Pinky Count" as the get ready. Better, do you think?
Thank you for your comments! I most enjoyed your thoughts and ideas on this
subject.
Later, I hope!
Richard, The Cardician
KidOfKards
gnost...@my-deja.com
"John LeBlanc" <JLeB...@see.sig> wrote:
> For me, a DL/DTO should not be a Hot Shot Cut. Which is essentially
how I got
> started with the move. Now it *almost* looks like I do nothing. I am
so proud.
> :^)
John,
Thanks for a post which a lot of people need to not only read, but
frame. The purpose of most card sleights should be to look like you are
doing nothing other than simple, natural thing. Unfortunately, many
magicians want to show off their "moves" and lose any hope of being
magical. Juggling is a separate art-if someone wants to show off their
"card juggling" then take up juggling. If you want to be a magician,
don't give the spectator a chance to say "dunno what he did, but I know
when." Fancy moves gratify the performer's need to show off, but kill
the magic. Biggest compliment a performer can hear is "but you didn't DO
ANYTHING" Guess it must have been magic.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
David Lang
at the Card Table, and the card colledge books.
It was well worth the small effort. The is no apparent get ready, which
usually signals a DL.
I use it, and like it a whole lot.
Dave
Cardican <card...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990823151147...@ng-bh1.aol.com...
KidOfKards
Ricky B
|On 23 Aug 1999 17:26:34 GMT, card...@aol.com (Cardican) wrote:
| the DL is a rather illogical move.
|
|Consider: You basically turn over the" top card" by whatever method,
|show it for a moment. and turn it back. Fine, so far. But then you
|proceed by _putting it back flush on the deck_ only to grab exactly
|"that" card again a split second later and deal it on the table or
|bury it in the deck or whatever. Which is, as I just said, absolutely
|illogical if you think about it a bit
It helps if you do something to justify putting the card face up on the back of
the deck. For example, pointing at it with your index finger as you comment on
it. That "explains" why you put down the card when you are grabbing it two
seconds later to do something with it.
--Rick
Deathsdoor
> And then I found Martin Nash.
Where can I find Martin Nash? What books/videos has he out?
>
> Like the majority of people chasing after the "perfect pass", for years
I've
> chased after the "perfect strike". Martin assured me it, and a flawless
> middle, are simple a matter of practicing until I get it. (Sure. Easy for
him
> to say... :) I can say without hesitation that the Nash Method is worthy
of
> attention and practice (as is anything else I've ever read of his.
Surprise of
> surprises, The Charming Cheat's books I own were written by Stephen
Minch.)
[Snip]
Deathsdoor
Peter Klumbach
>Nice watching the communications going back and forth over the pass and side
>steal. I enjoyed the reading! And it was educational.
>
>I haven't seen anything out there of late concerning D.L.'s. Heaven knows
>there are a lot of technical ideas on this item listed in a far reaching number
>of books/personal libraries.
>
>Something in this area is worthy of sharing/posting. Any of your particular
>favorites (sources) would be interesting topics to post on the board. Also,
>any from those who may wish advice from board members in this particular field
>would be welcomed as well.
Ok, you asked for it it :=) So here's a question which has been
puzzling me for quite a while now:
No matter how offhand or "natural" you do it (yes, I'd absolutely
agree that a good - or well performed - sleight is one the spectator
doesn't even notice) the DL is a rather illogical move.
Consider: You basically turn over the" top card" by whatever method,
show it for a moment. and turn it back. Fine, so far. But then you
proceed by _putting it back flush on the deck_ only to grab exactly
"that" card again a split second later and deal it on the table or
bury it in the deck or whatever. Which is, as I just said, absolutely
illogical if you think about it a bit - why would anybody in his sane
mind do that if he didn't have something to hide?
Probably not much of a problem if you use the move just occasionally,
but what about tricks like the numerous "Ambitious Card" variations
that are practically founded on doing lots of DLs in a row? I always
think that even the dumbest spectator will realize after the third one
or so that something fishy is going on here. Which means that you're
not doing magic any more, you're just showing people that it might be
a very bad idea to play Poker with you <g>.
Very interested in your comments
P.
Chris Ivanovich
Klumbach) wrote:
>Consider: You basically turn over the" top card" by whatever method,
>show it for a moment. and turn it back. Fine, so far. But then you
>proceed by _putting it back flush on the deck_ only to grab exactly
>"that" card again a split second later and deal it on the table or
>bury it in the deck or whatever. Which is, as I just said, absolutely
>illogical if you think about it a bit - why would anybody in his sane
>mind do that if he didn't have something to hide?
Or, you could learn the Tamariz turnover/replacement, where the top card
of the deck that you've just shown never comes flush with the deck as you
turn it down, yet you've just accomplished what you've wanted with no
illogical move.
>Probably not much of a problem if you use the move just occasionally,
>but what about tricks like the numerous "Ambitious Card" variations
>that are practically founded on doing lots of DLs in a row? I always
>think that even the dumbest spectator will realize after the third one
>or so that something fishy is going on here.
Yup, which is why you should use different methods as you go through such
a routine. Study Vernon's "Cups and Balls." The same lesson applies
here. Use a different method for each iteration of the effect. Each
method serves to cancel out the weak spot of the other ones used. Maybe
you DL the first time and then the second time you use the depth
illusion. Each has a weak point, but together they cancel each other weak
points out, and make for a stronger illusion.
Chris
Chris Ivanovich
<knock@NO_SPAM_HEREdeathsdoor.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>[Please excuse the SNIP]
>> And then I found Martin Nash.
>
>Where can I find Martin Nash? What books/videos has he out?
Mr. Nash has a trilogy of spiral bound books written by Stephen Minch
which are just incredible. These books are now out of print, but A-1 has
bought the rights to re-publish them. Nobody knows when that might
happen, though.
He also has a set of three easily available videos which have a good
sampling of his stuff. But - by far the best thing - is a two video set
available only through Martin: Infinity and Beyond. On those he teaches
the infinity principle and it's uses (as well as his work on the tabled
faro shuffle).
If you buy Infinity and Beyond, Mr. Nash promises that if, after you've
watched it, you're not impressed and think that you've wasted your money,
just return the video and don't use the material. That's it! If you
_are_ happy, he asks you to promise not to reveal the material, not to
publish it, nor discuss it with anyone who hasn't purchased it. Cool.
Overall, Nash's technique will smoke you like a cheap cigar. And you'll
find yourself using it in your own effects rather than learning his...it's
_that_ adaptable.
Chris
gnost...@my-deja.com
ch...@megsinet.net (Chris Ivanovich) wrote:
> Mr. Nash has a trilogy of spiral bound books written by Stephen Minch
> which are just incredible. These books are now out of print, but A-1
has
> bought the rights to re-publish them. Nobody knows when that might
> happen, though.
I was able to buy all three on eBay at various times for well below the
going rate. eBay has a well-deserved reputation for ridiculously
overpriced prices on many magic items. However, it should be noted that
this primarily true for packet tricks, self-workers and slum magic stuff
and well as other things directed at the beginning (or lazy) magician. I
have found that frequently intermediate to advanced (and/or older)
material can be bought for less than its worth as the uninformed do not
bid and the informed bid only up to its value and only if they are
looking for that specific material.
LAURIE HEROLD
>
>That "push off" is very nice. However, I read an item where Darwin Ortiz
uses
>a "Pinky Count" as the get ready. Better, do you think?
>
>
>Richard, The Cardician
I've heard of the "Pinky Count" before, but I've never tried it. I'm up to
about 98% on a strike D.L., so I don't use it in actual performance yet.
Get readies really aren't that horrible, though, for most effects that don't
require more than one or two during the routine. Even when I did the
simplest of D.L.s, I was never "caught". Still, I think it's good to strive
for better technique.
Basil
John Rowley
ch...@megsinet.net (Chris Ivanovich) wrote:
> Yup, which is why you should use different methods as you go through such
> a routine. Study Vernon's "Cups and Balls." The same lesson applies
> here. Use a different method for each iteration of the effect. Each
> method serves to cancel out the weak spot of the other ones used. Maybe
> you DL the first time and then the second time you use the depth
> illusion. Each has a weak point, but together they cancel each other weak
> points out, and make for a stronger illusion.
Precisely. I wouldn't mind betting that the Ambitious Card comes near the top
of the popularity poles with both close-up workers AND spectators. Why? Because
a good routine, well presented, is so effective and immediate in its impact. And
no performer in his right mind would just do one DL after another to get the
card back to the top. The ways and means are almost endless - the "depth" move
you mention, a faced card, reversed in the deck, a double backer, dealing the
second, side steal etc., (I haven't come across the Tamariz move).
I see what Peter means by the apparent illogicality of the straightforward DL
and replacement, but after all, if you could just show a card, plunge it
straight into the middle and have it jump back to the top, we'd all be
discussing this in an entirely different news group :)
John R.
(Who after many years of heartbrake and fumbling finally mastered his own
combination get-ready/push-off).
Greee...@mypeak.com
order there about a month and a half ago. My stuff never came & I
wasn't charged. Simply magic's site is still up, and the fax machine
they have listed is taking faxes. They even have voicemail service
running, but they are not responding to e-mail, US mail, fax, the
online order form, or phone calls on either the local or 800 number.
I used them about 9 months previous to this and they had fast service.
Does anyone know of any other sites with similar prices on videos?
Chris Ivanovich
jro...@cix.co.uk wrote:
>I see what Peter means by the apparent illogicality of the straightforward DL
>and replacement, but after all, if you could just show a card, plunge it
>straight into the middle and have it jump back to the top, we'd all be
>discussing this in an entirely different news group :)
Or perhaps use the DPS!
Chris
feint
> I used them about 9 months previous to this and they had fast service.
> Does anyone know of any other sites with similar prices on videos?
>
Very good prices.
Deathsdoor
--
Deathsdoor
knock@NO_SPAM_HEREdeathsdoor.freeserve.co.uk
****************************************************************
I would like to die in my sleep, just like my grandfather,
and not kicking and screaming like his passengers.
****************************************************************
Chris Ivanovich <ch...@megsinet.net> wrote in message
news:chris-24089...@tnt14c-177.focal-chi.corecomm.net...
> In article <7psma3$h6d$1...@neptunium.btinternet.com>, "Deathsdoor"
> <knock@NO_SPAM_HEREdeathsdoor.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >[Please excuse the SNIP]
> >> And then I found Martin Nash.
> >
> >Where can I find Martin Nash? What books/videos has he out?
>
> Mr. Nash has a trilogy of spiral bound books written by Stephen Minch
> which are just incredible. These books are now out of print, but A-1 has
> bought the rights to re-publish them. Nobody knows when that might
> happen, though.
>
Bill Lloyd
I recently heard that Bob Votaw was back in business after a brief
hiatus. I recently ordered something from Simply Magic and could not
get in touch with anyone there. However, I did receive my merchandise
about a week after I ordered it.
Bill
John Rowley
ch...@megsinet.net (Chris Ivanovich) wrote:
> Or perhaps use the DPS!
>
> Chris
>
Hmm, I do - in my dreams :)
John R.
David Howorth
> show it for a moment. and turn it back. Fine, so far. But then you
> proceed by _putting it back flush on the deck_ only to grab exactly
> "that" card again a split second later and deal it on the table or
> bury it in the deck or whatever. Which is, as I just said, absolutely
> illogical if you think about it a bit - why would anybody in his sane
> mind do that if he didn't have something to hide?
I think Vernon makes the point somewhere that the move is more logical if
you initially display the DL by turning it face up onto the face-down deck,
then turning it back over and dealing it onto the table. This is more
logical than displaying the face separately with the hand not holding the
deck, then replacing it on the deck, then dealing it onto the table.
David Howorth
Cardican
There are "numerous" book articles addressing this particular move, and with
descriptions of a 100 or more ways to approach it--minimum. And this has been
running at a hot pace over the last 90 years or more. (NO! I'm not that old!!)
I venture to say anyone having any degree of success at cards..and even more so
those making a living at it, use the item one way or another...bar none! (And
they would have to throw out a tremendous amount of excellent material, should
they decide ever to discontinue using it. That amounts to a whole lot of
practice hours lost, along with the thrills the "move" helped provide the
laymen as well. )
A "little more research" is required on your parts to grasp the value of this
utility move,
and the importance it has played in the history of the past, is playing now in
the history of the present, and will continue doing so in the future to come
for this particular item.
The move was never intended to be just a "turn it over/put it in the
middle/jump back to the top Jack thing." (Although each of us used it as such
when just "touching base" with the fundementals of sleight of hand card
magic...myself included. (We still fooled um, though, didn't we? (Ha!)
READ! Study. You will then learn this one simple item only "scratches the
surface" of what you really must know. Then..move on! You've got a lot of work
ahead of you.
"Richard, The Cardician