David Blaine's Lottery Trick
Tuesday's Chillun
> >Could the ticket have been bought, determined a >>winner and then fixed
so
> >that it could be re-scratched?
Maybe, but why go to all that trouble? It's not hard to print up an
acceptable facsimile of a lottery ticket. Go into any novelty shop; they
have them there.
As previously mentioned, we never do see the guy get the money from the
lottery office. We see him go in, see him count his money, see him walk
out.
The whole thing struck me more as playacting than magic.
Lee
Troy
pete wrote:
> My girlfriend who sells lottery tickets at her job, noticed that the
> proper prize winning code WAS NOT ON THE TICKET!!! Therefore, it wasn't
> a real winner!!
I missed this, since I was too busy running after my kids trying to get
them to bed, but from what I've been reading, it sounds like the winner
got $1600 cash for the ticket, since he was shown counting his money.
Is it just me, or does that seem odd to be able to walk into the lottery
office and walk out with that kind of cash. Wouldn't they have given him
a check? Maybe it's different in NY, but in CA, anything over $500 or so
involves filling out a claim form, sending to Sacramento, and waiting
for a check.
--
Troy
pathfind11
Tony, your right
anything over $500.00 you have
to go to a high tier claim office
fill out tax forms, sign them along
with two forms of ID, then they
print out a check for you along with
your W2G forms for state and Federal taxes.
Regards,
Path
Crouching Tiger- Hidden Dragon
sounds like something sigfried & Roy would do on Vacation
-Steve Martin
cor...@webtv.net
Has anyone ruled out the possiblity that producers for the show ( not
identifying themselves as such of course ) contacted the state lotto
office with this story.
There was going to be a party for some deserving person and the
requestor wanted to give as a gift a bunch of scratch off Lotto tickets.
Was it possible to obtain a few winning tickets and pay an additional
$500 above the face value of each card?
Showing up with a certified check for lets say $5000 made out to the
Lotto Fund, etc wouldn't be a bad idea. Sell the idea that it would be
a big surprise for everyone at the party who would likely be enticed to
buy some tickets in the ensuing excitement, etc.
I expect that given enough leadtime and just making a general request
for a few "intermediate big prize" winning cards the state office could
identify and pull let's say, several $1600 winners as they being
printed and deliver them for the face vale plus the premium $500 or
whatever.
It's not a bribe or anything, the state funds are enhanced, etc.
Trial and error would likely find some state lotto willing to go in on
this.
Any concerns on the part of the Lotto that for example that it might be
a newspaper or TV station trying to expose some weakness in the office
could be explained away by the lotto office that the newspaper / station
had used "entrapment" and that nobody at the lotto office had personally
gained anything financially and that the "school children" were the
benificaries.
The production costs of the show could easily absorb the $500 or even
$1000 above the face value of the card/cards.
Certainly worth that price to pull off the trick for a network tv show,
and everyone's "ass" would more or less be covered if the method was
exposed.
FreemanG12
unlikely. The lottery in any state is run pretty tightly, with a lot of
oversight and strict controls on access to tickets, etc. I don't think any
lottery office would legitimately "sell" or "donate" a winning ticket for any
reason, regardless of whether the lottery makes a profit on the deal. Not that
it couldn't happen at all, since any item can be stolen. But I think the
lottery employee who did would be risking a criminal charge just for doing
Blaine a favor, and he'd probably find it very difficult.
Makes more sense to me that it just wasn't a valid ticket at all.
-- Greg
Bob K
>Has anyone ruled out the possiblity that producers for the show ( not
>identifying themselves as such of course ) contacted the state lotto
>office with this story.
>It's not a bribe or anything, the state funds are enhanced, etc.
Maybe not. But I suspect it'd probably still be against the law in
any state having a lottery. It could also cause many other problems
when people of that state found out that it was possible to buy
guaranteed winning tickets, no matter what you were paying for them.
Bob K (remove XXX to reply by email)
pathfind11
No one in the lottery has any idea
what tickets are winners.
all they know is doing the life of
a game x number of tickets will
pay out x number of dollars with
x number of dollars net to the state.
Crash1035
Go to the lottery office where people claim the money for there ticket and hold
up a big sign saying "I will buy your winning ticket from you and give you
$500". then re-coat the ticket with the latex stuff and talk some pimple-faced
check out clerk at the 7 eleven to sell the ticket.
Now probability comes in. have someone go in and buy three tickets. they hand
two of them to you. if they keep the correct ticket then you have your
illusion, if not go find someone else and do it again. theoretically it will
work one out of every three times.
This would not be illegal and would allow the person who won the money to go to
the lottery place and claim the money.
Thanks,
Hunter
Troy
Crash1035 wrote:
That's also more work than necessary. Besides, the people standing in
line are going to remember that sign. Then, odds are, one or more of
them will see the special, remember the sign when they were in line, put
two and two together, tell a friend, and the illusion is spoiled.
The fewer people that know anything at all about your illusion, the
better.
--
Troy
Bob K
>On 19 Apr 2001 21:34:48 GMT, in "David Blaine's Lottery Trick,"
>Crash1035 wrote:
>
>> okay, how about this.
>> Go to the lottery office where people claim the money for there ticket and hold
>> up a big sign saying "I will buy your winning ticket from you and give you
>> $500".
The first problem there is that the ticket was worth $1600. If you
can find people willing to sell you $1600 for $500 then you're a
better magician that Blaine, Copperfield and Merlin combined.
>That's also more work than necessary. Besides, the people standing in
>line are going to remember that sign. Then, odds are, one or more of
>them will see the special, remember the sign when they were in line, put
>two and two together, tell a friend, and the illusion is spoiled.
While that's true I don't think it'd be much of a consideration to
Blaine or anyone else doing a TV special. Copperfield vanishes 13
audience members in his live show (and will likely do it on TV
eventually) and all 13 know how it's done. Sure, they apparently sign
a secrecy agreement, but do you really think none of them every tell?
(For that matter, since they don't sign the agreement until after the
trick, what can he do if they refuse to sign?)
Blaine has millions of viewers to his special. Every a few hundred
who tell someone how a trick was done is not going to hurt him.
Magicians have told thousands that he used camera tricks (not to
mention FOX exposing that stunt on it's own national special). A few
hundred or thousand who find out how it's done after the fact would
not even be a minor annoyance.
(But I don't think that's what he did).
cor...@webtv.net
>Besides, the people standing in line
>are going to remember that sign.
>Then, odds are, one or more of them
>will see the special, remember the
>sign when they were in line, put two
> and two together, tell a friend,
>and the illusion is spoiled.
>The fewer people that know anything
>at all about your illusion, the better.
True. I agree but as you say it is an illusion and I doubt if many
viewers really believe that Blaine somehow made the card a winner.
Indeed if as it was suggested they actually planted the card i the 7-11,
he would have done even less. I like to think he at least substituted
the winner card for the one the guy brought out of the store. Had the
guy not picked a card with the game Blaine had the card for, they
wouldn't have used that guy.
"Coating the card with the Latex stuff" I think over simplifies things.
In my state the latex is usually two colors and has a pattern
distinctive to each game. I doubt if that can be easily done.
I still think that my scenario of making arrangements with the Lotto
office is still the likeliest. I didn't mean to suggest that the Lotto
people would be able to simply go into the back room, pull out a ream of
tickets and be able to look at code numbers and tear off the winning
tickets. I used the term "given enough lead time" to suggest that
perhaps they could put the producers in tough with the printers who
handle the tickets.
I admit that logistically this is somewhat complicated, but since this
was a trick no body had done before on TV I doubt if anyone would have
figured out what the request was for.
A resident of that state might be bugged by the notion that somebody
"bought" a winning ticket but is paying a $500 or $1000 premium for a
ticket any different than buying 250 or 500 $2 tickets and going
through them individually? Production costs of shooting all those
scenes would be astronomic, especially on film.
No, I think that if the Lotto Office believed this was just ultimately
for the purpose I described, to give to someone at a party, they would
see little difference in selling someone a ticket for $1000 above the
prize value of the ticket over insisting that they buy all of those
tickets. Lotto officials are interested in selling tickets.
I doubt if few magicians have the sort of budget to afford to duplicate
this sort of trick so I doubt that any state will be seeing any rush in
requests for $1000 unscratched winning tickets...
FreemanG12
>for the purpose I described, to give to someone at a party, they would
>see little difference in selling someone a ticket for $1000 above the
>prize value of the ticket over insisting that they buy all of those
>tickets. Lotto officials are interested in selling tickets.
Give it a try. Go to your local lotto office and tell them you want to buy a
$1,600 winning ticket for a party and you're willing to pay $2,600. (Just act
like a bigshot with lots of money. You can run away if they say yes.)
You'll find that they say no, and probably in a rather firm tone. Lotteries are
run under strict legal requirements; they're not just stores willing to hand
out winning tickets if you offer enough money. It's like walking into a casino
and offering to pay the house an extra $500 if they'll just let you win a big
roulette spin by jiggling the wheel a little -- you know, just for the thrill
of a big win. Ain't gonna happen.
-- Greg
Bob Ess
layman's observation; perhaps the bit was a setup; fake ticket, shill at the
store to pay out the 'winnings', etc...
"FreemanG12" <freem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010420102138...@ng-mp1.aol.com...
Chrisssantry
>line are going to remember that sign. Then, odds are, one or more of
>them will see the special, remember the sign when they were in line, put
>two and two together, tell a friend, and the illusion is spoiled.
yeah but then again they were proberly all in on it as well
cor...@webtv.net
>office and tell them you want to buy
>a $1,600 winning ticket for a party and
> you're willing to pay $2,600. (Just act
> like a bigshot with lots of money. You
> can run away if they say yes.)
You are eiher missing or ignoring the point. I am speculating on how he
producers of the Blaine Special might have arranged to have the trick
happen. I thought I had established that this was not a trick that the
standard magician could or would do, It was a stunt. From a economic
point of view it would be cost prohibitive to say the least. How could
you do this trick at a magic show in front f an audience?
>You'll find that they say no, and
> probably in a rather firm tone. Lotteries
> are run under strict legal requirements;
> they're not just stores willing to hand out
> winning tickets if you offer enough
> money.
True but again I was speculating on *how* the producers *might* have
arranged to have this trick happen. I'm talking Pre Nationwide TV
special. I seriously doubt if anyone with the Lotto office of any state
if approached by someone looking to pay a premium price for a winning
ticket would ever consider that a "magic trick" might be the ultimate
purpose of the request for a ticket. Do you?
Let me posit a revised scenario. The story of a high roller wanting a
winning ticket remains, however the high roller offers to pay the face
value, the $1000 premium PLUS whatever fees would be applicable to have
an EXTRA one or two winning tickets printed over and above what would be
made available to the public.
In any scratch off game there are a predetermined number of winners of
various prizes. The Public will not have been cheated in any way. No
winning cards that could have been purchased by players would be pulled
out of the batch.
Several extra cards that would NEVER HAVE EXISTED without the requst
from the "high roller" would be added to the print run. Nobody is
cheated out of anything. OK?
>It's like walking into a casino and
>offering to pay the house an extra
>$500 if they'll just let you win a big
> roulette spin by jiggling the wheel a
> little -- you know, just for the thrill
>of a big win. Ain't gonna happen.
>-- Greg
I think that is called a "strawman". I don't recall DB doing a casino
trick like you describe. So I dispute that the Lotto situation is
"like" the request for rigging a roulette spin.
If you are saying it would be likely impossible to walk into a Lotto
office TODAY, after the nationwide broadcast of the trick, and ask that
question and get a positive response, I would totally agree with you.
But I also suggest that a mention of the trick might be heard from most
Lotto officials you might speak with.
If indeed this was how the producers arranged for the trick, I don't
assume they pulled off getting the cards on the first try. A lot of it
depended on who was asking and how the question was asked. For example,
had you concieved of this trick yourself and went in to a Lotto office
to try to find out the practicality of arranging for such a trick, I
suspect your demeanor would trip you up. If you were planning to "run
away" I think that would have been telegraphed as someone who might just
be there as a joke without serious intent.
People at Lotto offices probably get a lot of the same questions from
people who figure they have a sure fire scheme.
A emissary for the producers of the show who showed up with a Cashier's
Check made out to the Lotto Commission or whatever to verify their
intent would likely have been taken somewhat more seriously than some
character who was primed to "run away" at any moment. n time they may
have found a Lotto office willing to indulge the request. If the
producers had not been able to do this, the doubt we'd have seen the
trick.
With all the talk of Lotto regulations, I think the producers would be
in potential legal trouble had they printed up their own phoney cards
and staged the selling and redemption of the card. This would likely be
viewed as fraud and misrepresentation.
I don't know which State Lotto had the game in question but I wouldn't
be surprised if there already isn't some local inquiry going on about
how Blaine obtained the winning card.
Unless this particular game exists in a couple of states and there was
no statement from Blaine that the trick took place in a specific state,
there could be some real legal problems for the producers.
FreemanG12
resist.
1. You originally used the example of some regular fellow just wanting a
winning ticket for a party and suggested that was plausible. That's why I
suggested, facetiously, that you give it a try.
2. You seem to say that the DB producers would be (or would have been before
the TV special) more successful with this plan than the average guy. I really
doubt that. Again, I cite the strict lottery regulations that don't waiver in
the face of a cashier's check and a celebrity.
3. Good point that printing an EXTRA ticket would not deprive normal players of
a winning ticket. But that is even more difficult to propose than just buying a
winner. Lottery tickets are printed under very tight controls, and again you're
talking about quite a deviation from those controls.
4. C'mon now, my casino comparison wasn't a straw man just because DB never did
a casino trick! Look a little closer. I'm making the point that lotteries and
casinos are both tightly regulated games of chance. The people who run them
don't make exceptions just because someone offers a check.
And what does it matter whether they would ever consider that a magic trick is
the ultimate purpose? I don' t think they care what the purpose is; they're not
going to sell you a winning ticket.
5. Don't read so much into my "run away" comment. It was meant as a joke, a
lighthearted way to acknowledge that neither of us can probably spare the
$2,100 or whatever to test this. Besides, I think the lottery officials'
response would be the same no matter how serious they thought you were. But I
guess that's the crux of our disagreement.
6. Actually, I think there would be an investigation if DB had gotten the
lottery to collude with him on the trick. ("You can buy a winning ticket?
That's not right! Let's investigate this...")
Printing up your own dummy for entertainment purposes probably wouldn't draw
any attention, UNLESS you actually tried to redeem it for cash. Note that we
never saw the person actually redeem the ticket for cash. Very important point
there.
7. And remember, this whole collusion-with-lottery-officials scenario is much
more complicated than some other posssibilities, such as making a fake ticket
(doesn't even have to be a great fake) and buying the man's cooperation.
cor...@webtv.net
> an investigation if DB had gotten
> the lottery to collude with him on
>the trick. ("You can buy a winning
> ticket? That's not right! Let's
> investigate this...") Printing up
> your own dummy for entertainment
> purposes probably wouldn't draw
> any attention, UNLESS you actually
> tried to redeem it for cash. Note
>that we never saw the person
> actually redeem the ticket for
> cash. Very important point there.
Could be. I'm working from memory here as I do not have the show on
tape. I recall the purchase of the tickets, Blaine taking and the cards
and selecting the one to scratch off, uncovering the winner, following
the guy to the redemption office and getting in line, maybe even
approachng the window and the counting of the money.
It's my recollection that we saw the money being counted out by the
"cashier" person, but could I swear to that? No.
Nor could I say for certainty that for example the "cashier" was a
woman. I think so but was she white or black even?
I could not tell you that detail either. Just didn't notice or do I
recall.
MY recollection of the events is that they followed a logical order but
if the producers had edited the events cleverly I MIGHT have missed the
fact that the counting out of the money that I do recall ($100 bills...
well I think they were $100 bills) WASN'T by the cashier. Could have
been by the guy who scratched the ticket. Did he fan out the bills? I
think so, but again...
I would LIKE to think that little detail of the cashier not counting out
the bills and for the guy would have jumped out at me since I am familar
with the editing process but I could have been fooled I guess... grrr
While I watched, and probably recorded the original Blaine special, I
didn't think enough of the idea of the rerun to go out of my way to
watch or record it. The Lotto trick was something I came into when I
changed the channel and my recollection was that after it, the show went
back to the frozen in ice aftermath in the ambulance. I had no interest
in that and changed the channel back to whatever I had been watching I
suppose. I just remember seeing the Lotto trick.
This is a good example of how different people remember events
differently. The stuff that Defense Attorneys live off of, huh?
You didn't refer to watching a video playback so I assume you are
working from memory too. I don't suggest my recollection is any better
than yours though... Maybe someone can come along with a page of freeze
frames ala the DC special. Ideally an image of the money being counted
out on the counter which I do seem to recall, or some other image in the
sequence that I could look at and say "Damn I forgot about this shot
completely!" which could make me realize how faulty my memory really is.
I doubt if the show will be rerun on ABC since it was essentially a
rerun already. Perhaps the Fox Family Channel may eventually run it and
this may settle the question in my mind someday...
I am surprised however that somebody in whatever state that particular
Lotto Game card was available hasn't complained about the apparent
tampering of he system. I live in a state where the class action suits
would be flying already. Who knows, maybe the producers printed up not
only a dummy card but invented a game that doesn't really exist.
I was never really that impressed with the trick itself. When he took
the cards from the guy and gave him back the one to scratch off was the
only point I remember that might have involved any "magic" where he
presumably substituted the prepared card for the real one.
People suggesting that the entire thing was staged might be right, but
geeze if that was true... What fun is there in trying to figure out how
a trick is done if there is no "trick"?
If that is the case, perhaps someday we'll see an entire "Magic" Special
presenting all original tricks that seem impossible. None of the basic
principles of Magic will be used, just editing, image manipulation via
computer , etc. The discussion groups could then talk about what
computer CGI program was utilized to present each "trick".
Could that day be far away?
FreemanG12
has been confirmed by others here, we only see the guy go through the lottery
office line and then see him count the money. No cashier.
And I totally agree with you that even the slightest video editing ruins the
fun.
-- Greg
Bill Page
DC dd a lot of video editing so no one will figure how he dos his
illusions any more or magician duplaction hisillusions and that
the plat forn for the portal illusion is a a tad thicker live
then TV that DC SLDES DOWN IT AND THEGUY STayS IN IT
snap...@hotmail.com is rezas email adresss
and his web page is
http://www.magicreza.com
or is it?
http://www.rezamagic.com
http://community.webtv.net/magic-bill/illusionideas
http://community.webtv.net/magic-bill/DCNewillusions