alt.magic.secrets
Steven Brooker
have posted my own messages in the past. However, recently I have wondered
what has gone wrong all of a sudden. What happened to make everyone so
negative and doubtful of the future ?
In terms of help or exposure (whatever you want to call it) it seems to me
that secrets or methods should only be passed on to those who are clearly
interested in the subject or are willing to put the hours in to practice or
develop their skill. Difficult to assess from an e-mail, I know, but isn't
this how magic dealers sell different types of magic to people ? Many web
sites have passwords or entry requirements for this reason. However,
everyone has to start somewhere.
My point is this - posting a secret or method on this newsgroup for the
whole world to see is not going to help anyone really. If you feel that the
sender deserves it - privately e-mailing them to refer them to a book or
video (which has a limited distribution) should be OK, shouldn't it ? This
newsgroup could continue to exist for that purpose. I started by reading a
thread about "the best card books", bought one from Amazon and started from
there.
Steve
Tilman Hausherr
<Steve&Li...@Herbie2.demon.co.uk> wrote in
<955269611.10423.0...@news.demon.co.uk>:
>If you feel that the
>sender deserves it - privately e-mailing them to refer them to a book or
>video (which has a limited distribution) should be OK, shouldn't it ?
No, obviously not. After all, the purpose of the usenet is that
discussions are available worldwide.
--
Tilman Hausherr [KoX]
til...@berlin.snafu.de http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/
All flames gratefully accepted: I learn new words this way!
[reib...@dma.org]
SpencyB
ride*
-Spencer
;-)
Bruce Barnett
> No, obviously not. After all, the purpose of the usenet is that
> discussions are available worldwide.
Yup. Right up there with abortion, religion, racism, homophobia, and
other topics.
--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.
rwelford
the notion of secrecy as well as anyone. That's because it's so bloody
obvious to virtually everyone except, it seems, folks like Tilman that
exposing the methods we use to do tricks to people who are not
magicians doesn't benefit anyone AT ALL!!!
Tilman - where do you draw the line, man? WHen you do an effect that
surprises someone and they ask how it's done, do you tell them? Or do
you say "Sorry can't tell you, put post a question on alt.magic.secrets
and, if I have my way, someone will be back to you within hours with an
explanation."
Best wishes
Ross W
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Tilman Hausherr
wrote in <8cshcd$od9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>:
>Yup Steve - you've ably demonstrated that a relative newcomer can grasp
>the notion of secrecy as well as anyone. That's because it's so bloody
>obvious to virtually everyone except, it seems, folks like Tilman that
>exposing the methods we use to do tricks to people who are not
>magicians doesn't benefit anyone AT ALL!!!
>
>Tilman - where do you draw the line, man? WHen you do an effect that
>surprises someone and they ask how it's done, do you tell them? Or do
>you say "Sorry can't tell you, put post a question on alt.magic.secrets
>and, if I have my way, someone will be back to you within hours with an
>explanation."
Nobody is forced to tell. My point is just that if you don't like the
exposure of secrets, don't subscribe to the group.
Steven Brooker
There is passing on of secrets onto those people who want to learn and
appreciate that certain things should be kept from general knowledge to
preserve the effect (I personally don't think that this is exposure) and
there is blatant exposure for the sake of it. The problem with a newsgroup
like this is that it is public and easily accessible. There are no rules as
such and it takes a little discipline to ensure that information goes to the
right people at the right time.
Steve
"Tilman Hausherr" <til...@berlin.snafu.de> wrote in message
news:9074fsot79eo8lblh...@4ax.com...
anon
BUT, what IS the name of this NG? If it is full of magicians, what is there to
talk about? You do NOT want to discuss your secrets. If that were true, there
would be no responses. This would be an empty NG!
Has anyone tried forming a new NG? alt.magic.discussion, alt magic.moderated,
alt.magic.techniques,etc..?
Again, this is not possible.. you would STILL be revealing your secrets! Unless
you want to compare right hand vs left hand flourishes, the best cape maker, how
to score with hot stage assistants, etc,etc..
I will now apply my flame retardant PJ's and duck under the bed. LOL!
anon
Steven Brooker wrote:
<snip>
Brian Vanderford
> So, you decide. Should YOU expose secrets here or in private? I have
> e-mail from hundreds of magicians who like to do it in private. How
> many REAL magic tricks are ever posted here? Not as many as are shared
> in PRIVATE e-mail, I assure you.
I think I've bought more dealer items after having them exposed to me
via email than those I was in the dark about. How's that for a paradox.
:)
Ray Haddad
>I am a newbie.. and granted, I understand that magicians have their secrets.
>BUT, what IS the name of this NG? If it is full of magicians, what is there to
>talk about? You do NOT want to discuss your secrets. If that were true, there
>would be no responses. This would be an empty NG!
>
Magicians do NOT expose secrets in public. Only NON magicians try and
figure out how we do something. It is a game and nothing more. The
exposure by people who buy a trick and then publish it is just plain
wrong and even the expositors know it.
>Has anyone tried forming a new NG? alt.magic.discussion, alt magic.moderated,
>alt.magic.techniques,etc..?
>Again, this is not possible.. you would STILL be revealing your secrets! Unless
>you want to compare right hand vs left hand flourishes, the best cape maker, how
>to score with hot stage assistants, etc,etc..
>
>I will now apply my flame retardant PJ's and duck under the bed. LOL!
>
The easiest way to discuss secrets is by e-mail. No one but the
originator and recipient read that, or should read that. So, the folks
talking secrets using e-mail verify that both are magicians and talk
freely by e-mail or in a chat circumstance. But, they do it privately,
not in a public forum like alt.magic.* newsgroups.
See the difference? Once a so called "secret" has been revealed or
exposed, it is no longer a secret and by the charter of this group, it
is off topic. So, don't expose the secrets, just talk about how
brilliant they are so you can stay on topic. If this all sounds
confusing, that is because it truly is an enigma of the highest order.
Magicians, like myself, take an oath not to expose magic secrets to
anyone other than another magician. Many of us try to live up to that
oath. Some don't have the moral stamina and direction to resist
showing how smart they are by revealing a secret. If you reveal
someone else's secret, you are not smart. You are very much like a
monkey imitating a human. If you reveal your own, original secret, you
are probably very smart at making up secrets but not smart in using it
wisely. Why? Because as soon as you expose it, it is no longer a
secret and therefore quite useless.
So, you decide. Should YOU expose secrets here or in private? I have
e-mail from hundreds of magicians who like to do it in private. How
many REAL magic tricks are ever posted here? Not as many as are shared
in PRIVATE e-mail, I assure you.
Best,
Ray
Adamx
Ray Haddad <rha...@iexpress.net.au> wrote in message
news:m2XyOIamhvW8nu...@4ax.com...
Adamx
Brian Vanderford <van...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:38F26A...@bellsouth.net...
> Ray Haddad wrote:
>
> > So, you decide. Should YOU expose secrets here or in private? I have
> > e-mail from hundreds of magicians who like to do it in private. How
> > many REAL magic tricks are ever posted here? Not as many as are shared
> > in PRIVATE e-mail, I assure you.
>
Tilman Hausherr
<Steve&Li...@Herbie2.demon.co.uk> wrote in
<955397404.23757.0...@news.demon.co.uk>:
>My point is that there are different types of "exposure".
>
>There is passing on of secrets onto those people who want to learn and
>appreciate that certain things should be kept from general knowledge to
>preserve the effect (I personally don't think that this is exposure) and
>there is blatant exposure for the sake of it. The problem with a newsgroup
>like this is that it is public and easily accessible. There are no rules as
>such and it takes a little discipline to ensure that information goes to the
>right people at the right time.
It is not your job to state who the "right people" are. I know what you
support.. the kind of advice where people who ask a question get
recommended a book that 1. doesn't reveal the secret but something maybe
similar, 2. that has been out-of-print for 20 years at least, OR 3. a
pseudo-answer. ("with super-magnets")
This newsgroup has existed for 5 years. all major effects have been
exposed - and I contributed quite a lot in the early days. And they are
still used.
There have been whiners and trolls since the beginning, and there will
always be. Many people believe they are something "special" and part of
a "special group" just because they had the honor of being ripped off at
a magic shop for some "self-working" effect. Ha!
Tilman
Steven Brooker
are, as you say this is not my job. A thought - do you reveal the secret to
your audience after doing a trick ? If not, why not ? Would you do the
same if a magician approached you in private ?
I see nothing wrong with maintaining a little discretion when posting (qv
the latest post from Ray Haddad which I heartily agree with).
Steve
"Tilman Hausherr" <til...@berlin.snafu.de> wrote in message
news:a0l6fssrov688up8o...@4ax.com...
Tilman Hausherr
<Steve&Li...@Herbie2.demon.co.uk> wrote in
<955481222.19361.0...@news.demon.co.uk>:
>This doesn't describe me. Nor do I want to define who the "right" people
>are, as you say this is not my job. A thought - do you reveal the secret to
>your audience after doing a trick ? If not, why not ? Would you do the
>same if a magician approached you in private ?
I am not a magician. If I was one, I would of course not reveal the
secret to the audience, since some of them don't want to know.
>I see nothing wrong with maintaining a little discretion when posting (qv
>the latest post from Ray Haddad which I heartily agree with).
"Ray Haddad" is a troll. A year or so he popped here to claim that the
group had been created by magicians for magicians, and insisted on his
viewpoint even after being proven wrong.
Brian Vanderford
> "Ray Haddad" is a troll. A year or so he popped here to claim that the
> group had been created by magicians for magicians, and insisted on his
> viewpoint even after being proven wrong.
Even if Ray is wrong in this case, and the group's charter implies he
is, the majority of people wo make on-topic post here ARE magicians. The
group is changing, and and you're a throwback. Even Mitch posts mostly
his own material.
Brian Vanderford
[SNIP history and USENET for Dummies]
>
> It really doesn't matter one whit either way. If you notice, no
> magicians are exposing here. Only wanna be magicians who feel like
> they are hot stuff among the readers here if they guess at how
Yea, but they're great for a laugh.. .
> Tilman is wrong on one major item. I have NOT just been here a year or
And anyone who doesn't mind digging through Deja's marketing BS can see
that.
> so. I was here long before Tilman showed up. He just forgot. Better
> yet, he didn't know because HE wasn't here before me. I have been a
> writer for magic magazines, model railroading magazines, radio control
> model airplane magazines, electronic technical journals, computer
> technical journals and political columns for many years now. I wrote
Anything I would have seen? I bought a copy of every Dr Dobb's Journal
from 1995 back when I first started learning C, mainly for Michael
Abrash's graphics colums.
>
> Best Regards,
> Ray
Ray Haddad
Brian,
Alt.magic.secrets was a natural progression from an earlier BBS
(Bulletin Board System) that was password protected and moved about
much like a mailing list today by using FIDONET. That BBS was a dial
up computer with only one incoming line. When it was busy, it was
unnavailable to anyone. The FIDONET mailings helped a bit but was very
slow. The folks that sponsored the board eventually spotted the USENET
and thought it was a logical next step. Technically, they were correct
but should have waited a bit until the World Wide Web was established.
Keep in mind that there is a long discussion process that must occur
before a USENET charter is written. When the charter was first started
by real magicians who didn't see this as being an exposure group, it
was much different than the one lodged by the "johnny come later" so
called founders. The folks who started the discussion were under the
mistaken impression that this group could ONLY be visited by magicians
just because they declared it so. When they found out that the real
fact was ANYONE could visit and read discussions, it was dropped by
most of the original discussion group as unworkable. Since all the
discussion and signatories were already in place, the expositors who
had signed on to the discussion had a field day setting up their
little spoiling party of a newsgroup calling it alt.magic.secrets as
was written in the original proposal. It ws a simple matter to change
the charter to suit their own needs. Today, it stands as testimony of
what happens when you don't do your homework. If you want to see the
steps taken properly, read the Deja News records for the creation of
alt.magic.marketplace which took place only last year and created that
newsgroup from scratch.
It really doesn't matter one whit either way. If you notice, no
magicians are exposing here. Only wanna be magicians who feel like
they are hot stuff among the readers here if they guess at how
something is done. Often, they adopt a writing style that makes them
seem to have credibility but they are still wrong. Real magicians
don't expose magic in public. They do all of their discussions of
deep, dark secrets in private places like e-mail or serious discussion
boards. Think about this one carefully. I have shared probably 500 or
more secrets with over 100 different people here on this very
newsgroup and not ONE has ever betrayed my trust and posted those
secrets here. Those, my friend, are REAL magicians and not just
children with a computer pretending to be something they are not.
Tilman is wrong on one major item. I have NOT just been here a year or
so. I was here long before Tilman showed up. He just forgot. Better
yet, he didn't know because HE wasn't here before me. I have been a
writer for magic magazines, model railroading magazines, radio control
model airplane magazines, electronic technical journals, computer
technical journals and political columns for many years now. I wrote
exclusively under a pen name until 1991 because I was on active duty
in the US military at the time. While on active duty, one must apply
in writing to work part time outside of the military. When I asked, my
bosses there approved but ordered me to write under another name or
stop all together. So, I adopted a nom de plume that remains with me
to this day. I still write under that name every now and again or, if
the mood strikes me, under my own name, as well.
Best Regards,
Ray
Bill Brown
alt.magic about 3 months before alt.magic.secrets was created.
til...@berlin.snafu.de was very involved in the early discussions and did
the first and only FAQ for the new group. My memory of what happened very
much matches Tilman's comments.
Fortunately, all this early history is well documented, it just takes a
little work to read it. Here is how. Go to www.dejanews.com and do a power
search. Set the group to alt.magic.secrets and the dates to 6/1/95 to
6/1/96. Set the author to til...@berlin.snafu.de. You should find about 100
articles starting in Jan 1996. Read the FAQ and note that
til...@berlin.snafu.de was the author. Read some of the discussions. A lot
of strong feelings were expressed there. After reading these posts, you
will be able to decide for yourselves which of the current posts are
accurate. You may be surprised at who is fudging the story a little (or a
lot!)
Was I really there then. Set the author to bil...@teleport.com. That's me,
Same name, no aliases. (well sometimes I'm bi...@squires.com, but these are
not company related discussions) If others here claim to have been active
at that time, please tell us the name you used for posting and all can then
see your actual comments.
I am not a magician, and probably never will be one. I just like magic for
it's own sake. Have I ever reveled a secret? Yep, on occasion. Have I ever
helped magic. Yep. After becoming interested in magic by reading both
alt.magic and alt.magic.secrets I have paid for and attended Copperfield
shows, Sigfield and Roy, several Vegas shows, watched and taped most of the
magic TV shows and attended a skeptics conference where magic was used to
debunk supernatural experiences. And yes, I have purchased half a dozen
card and gimmick tricks as well. None of this would have happened without
these newsgroups.
As someone recently said, there is no way to effectively control who posts
what on an open news group, such as this. Those magicians that want to help
others need to know that neither this newsgroup, nor any other, is a place
that you should do this. It is easy to start a private list server where
you can exert any amount of influence over the contents that you wish. I am
certainly not against magicians e-mailing others with what ever information
they want. Although Tilman may rub some people the wrong way, I do believe
most of what he says is true. He is willing to take a lot of heat for his
views and I think that both this group and alt.magic is better off for
having had him as a participant.
I have tried not to be accusative in this post and would appreciate replies
to be in a similar vein. Thank you bil...@teleport.com
Bruce Barnett
> Keep in mind that there is a long discussion process that must occur
> before a USENET charter is written.
Not in the alt.* newsgroups. Thiw was a mechanism that UUNET started.
They created alt.* and set up how a new group was created.
The main newsgroups (rec.* comp.* news.* misc.* sci.* talk.* etc.) newsgroups require a VERY formal creation
process.
>When they found out that the real
> fact was ANYONE could visit and read discussions, it was dropped by
> most of the original discussion group as unworkable.
This discussion didn't occur in the newsgroups. I remember reading
alt.config when Kevin Quitt was the person who caused alt.magic to be
created.
> If you want to see the
> steps taken properly, read the Deja News records for the creation of
> alt.magic.marketplace which took place only last year and created that
> newsgroup from scratch.
A newsgroup in the "main" catagories has a call for discussion, call
for votes, a formal charter, a vote counter, etc. etc.
Tilman Hausherr
wrote in <01bfa43c$2f4f9180$LocalHost@user>:
>they want. Although Tilman may rub some people the wrong way, I do believe
>most of what he says is true. He is willing to take a lot of heat for his
>views and I think that both this group and alt.magic is better off for
>having had him as a participant.
Actually, I unsubscribed from alt.magic a year or two ago already :-)
The original idea was to have alt.magic for the professionals and
wannabe magicians, and a.m.s. for the exposure - a "live and let live"
attitude. I had hope for some sort of peace, because of the
group-whining when someone would ask for a secret on alt.magic. I don't
remember who actually proposed a.m.s. first, but I do remember that I
lobbied a lot for it, and the initial community members solved quite a
lot of difficult tricks as a group effort. It was wonderful.
Sadly even after a.m.s. was created, the wannabees found out that they
*need* newsgroups like a.m.s. to flame people and to post "you shouldn't
tell secrets" every week, instead of just unsubscribing it.
I haven't posted much to a.m.s. in the last few years, mostly because
there hasn't been much *new* good stuff on TV. David Copperfield is past
his peak, and the 2nd and 3rd class magicians from "WGM" and similar
shows often don't really have stuff that is difficult to expose.
Tilman
PS: Thanks for your support.
Mr Goat
> No one is dealing here.
Actually, I've got half a key of pure columbian flake that needs
shifting...
Mr Goat
>
> In terms of help or exposure (whatever you want to call it) it seems to me
> that secrets or methods should only be passed on to those who are clearly
> interested in the subject or are willing to put the hours in to practice or
> develop their skill. Difficult to assess from an e-mail, I know, but isn't
> this how magic dealers sell different types of magic to people ?
Shit yes. Everytime I go into Davenports, Betty asks me what Dai's
favourtie type of pasta was and whether or not english was lewis
ganson's first language.
If I want to buy anything more than a pack of cards, I am forced to go
through my entire act and demonstrate my understanding of both a
one-hand palm and a table pass. She is a bitch sometimes.