Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss

What is the "Olram Subtlety"

126 views
Skip to first unread message

Thomas Smith

unread,
Apr 23, 2001, 8:36:35 PM4/23/01
to
Just curious, ran across a reference to the Olram Subtlety and figured a
magic group would be the place to ask what that was.

"often in error, never in doubt"

Alsoran

sanscan

unread,
Apr 23, 2001, 10:28:07 PM4/23/01
to

|| Spell Bound || Blaine Levitation || Magician Bios. ||

|| Soft Rope || Quick Tricks || Learning Methods || Slip
Cut
||
|| Cane Cabinet || Olram Subtlety || Color Changes ||
Snap
Change ||
|| Die Box || Scarf and Ring || Chop Cup || Magic Career
||
|| Routining || Meisers Dream Legends ||
|| Black Magic || Rhumba Count || Muscle Pass ||
|| Ontological Predictability of Gradualism ||


Q: Dear Brad,

Who invented the effect known as "spellbound?"

Luis Ordaz

A: Dear Luis:

Spellbound is one of my favorite and signature effects. It

was originated by Dai Vernon and made it's first
appearence in the Stars of Magic Series which is now
available in a single volume for about $25.00. This is an
extrondinarily GREAT book that should be in the library of

every magician. My video #12 is devoted to the best
techniques for doing Spellbound.

For those not in the know here: You display a silver half
dollar in your Left Hand. Your R.H. makes a pass over the
coin which instantly turns into a copper English Penny!
Both
sides of the coin can be shown. This is repeated as many
times as will not bore the audience to tears and you end.
In
my own routine, I change the half dollar to a 3" jumbo
coin.

Dai Vernon was without doubt the greatest influence on my
own 'style' of performing and routining magic. His methods

always had the greatest sense of naturalness. They just
looked like magic. The Dai Vernon Book of Magic is also
available in reprint and highly recommended. In it is the
Vernon routine for Expansion of Texture. Check this out if

you have the book....it is a killer.

Regards,
Brad Burt.


Q:Dear Brad,

How did david blaine levitate?
Shawn Smith

A:Dear Shawn:

I can't really tell you that on a public forum, but I can
tell
you that the entire sequence was 'based' upon the Balducci

Levitation. This is a powerful technique that can be used
for
a small audience of 1-3 people. When 'performed' correctly

it is the best of the personal levitation methods out. A
detailed description is available on the Self-Levitation
Video
by Mike Maxwell ($12.50)

Best,
Brad Burt


Q: Hi Brad,

Can you recommend a good book on Magicians Bio's?

Thanks
Nick Morton

A: Dear Nick:

This is tough as I don't really follow these titles as I
did
when I was younger. The books I am about to recommend
are out of print, but still available for used book
sources.

First, the Complete Illustrated History of Magic by
Milbourne Christopher is wonderful. This is a book to
find.
Tons of bio material on all types of magicians!

Next, The Master Magicians and Their Greatest Tricks by
Walter Gibson is one of personal treasures. Read it as a
library edition when in High School and several years ago
did a search with the used magic book guys and came up
with a copy that I grabbed!

Finally, Houdini The Untold Story by Milbourne
Christopher is a small paperback that is my favorite
Houdini
bio. Very fun.

There are a couple of newer things out, but I was unable
to
get anything on them as this point. I have seen them and
they are o.k., but the classic and older stuff seems much
finer to me. Oh...Learned Pigs and Fireproof Women by
Ricky Jay is a terrific book on Freaks and odd-ball
performers. Look this up!

Best,
Brad Burt


Q: Dear Brad,

What kind of ropes and foam or rubber balls are best
suited
to what kind of tricks? (ie.soft foam balls for tricks
that
require the ball to be squashed so as to appear to have
dissapeared.)

Thanks
Adrian Overbury

A: Dear Adrian:

This is a very broad subject and difficult to answer
because
of the many possible variants. I will though give it a try
and
see where we go!

First, lets talk Cups and Balls and by derivation the Chop

Cup. In either case, you NEVER want to use something
like sponge that is compressible. In my own case it was
the
first thing that I checked for after being destroyed by a
performance of the Chop Cup. I personally use an old set
of very hard smooth rubber juggling balls that happen to
be
just the correct size. Anything in fact that is NOT
copressible and will not cause a noise on being loaded
into
the cups will work wonderfully. One good friend used baby
chicks for quite some time and there is always the 'fruit
and
vegys' course to go.

Sponge Balls. Here is a topic after my own heart. I talk
about what to use on my All About Sponge Balls video, but
it would be good to talk about the possibilities here.
First, I
DO NOT LIKE to use the Super Soft balls professionally.
Why? They simply flat out are not as powerful as the
regular ones when you are putting them into the spectators

hand. I used regular sponge balls for years and it was the

most popular item in my Cocktail Party work. As an
experiment I tried Super Soft one night and the first
comment from a spectator was, "Look they just squish up
really easy...he just hid them between his fingers!" I
NEVER got that using regular balls! Needless to say Super
Soft was OUT! Super Soft balls can be great when you
want to make a really BIG production of balls from your
hand, etc. If they are slightly damp they will open even
better.

The Super Soft versus the Regular is one of those
preferences that can be debated, but I have found over the

last 30 years in test after test with laypersons that the
regular is a more powerful sponge to use. Yes, it does
take
a little more work to use well, but not THAT much! Also,
the regular 4" and 5" jumbo ball is much better for the
'coughing up the ball' effect as it opens much faster,
etc.

Rope is a whole 'nother thing. For most purposes the
inexpensive off white pure cotton rope sold in most magic
shops is the best at about $7-10 for 50 feet. Here is a
tip
on making this rope even nicer: Soak the rope in hot water

for about 1 hour. Let it drain overnight and then put it
in the
dryer and spin dry it at a mid setting. What you will get
is a
rope that is fluffier and more pliable and feels really
great!
You can add fabric softener also.

I sell a coreless PURE white all cotten rope called Ultra
Rope for $20.00 for 50 ft. that is a dream right off the
roll.
Great stuff for doing manipulations of all kinds. Right
now it
is the best rope I have found (that I can get) for doing
the
Tabary manipulations. Perferable would be the same rope
with a core, but we haven't been able to get that yet.
Working on it.

If you can find it, there is a rope that comes out of
Italy that
is better than a 1/2" in dia. and made of cotton and silk!

This is the finest magicians rope that I have ever seen.
It is
just the most amazing stuff to work with. Very hard to get

and it is VERY expensive. Can't think of anything else,
hope it helps,

Best,
Brad


Q: Hi Brad -

What are some of the best quick tricks that only take
10-15
seconds to perform but are very effective and visual? (I
know that there are probably many good tricks that use a
French drop or false transfer.) Many times, I find myself
wanted to show magic but I only have a little time to work

with.

Thanks for your help,
John Mathai

A: Dear John:

A lot of stuff out there and I will try to give a little
sample. I
have mostly found material as I have read books and
looked at videos. Local magic clubs and conventions are
also a great place to find routines, etc. Obviously a good

solid grounding in sleight-of-hand with many objects is a
must (at least for me).

Thimble work (see my video due out first part of
November, The Basics of Expert Billiard Ball and Thimble
Manipulation) is great! Easy to do vanishes are quick and
totally magic when done well.

I like to do quick back palm vanishes of cards. I also
love
the Color Change material on my Side Steal video for quick

knock-em-dead card stuff. Wave the hand over the face of
the deck and the card changes. Killer stuff. Look in card
books for this type of material.

Sponge ball or rolled up balls of paper manipultation is
quick and effective.

Obviously any good solid, but short series of coin
manipulations are great.

You see by putting such a short period of time on your
basis of choice, you have almost narrowed it down
exclusively to slieights-of-hand of various types.

Good ring and string stuff is fun and mostly fast.
Manipulations with bottle caps, etc. I don't smoke, but a
good torn and restored cigarette routine is a killer when
done well. Which brings us to the numerous and billiant
goodies that can be done with a Thumb Tip. No magician
should be without one! Hope this helps,

Best,
Brad Burt


Q: Dear Brad,

I am a teenager and I have been interested in magic since
I
was little kid. After being interested in magic for so
many
years, I decided I would like to learn how to do magic.
I've
tried a few times to learn the basic coin sleights. But
what
happen's is I losse interest in them. The reason why is I
spend so much time learning the basic coin sleights (like
the
french drop) and in the end the coin trick is not that
great. Is
there any way for me to learn the basic coin sleight
without
losseing interest.

Thank you very much,
Ben Weil

A:Dear Ben:

This is a great question and one that I answer in one form
or
another every week here in the shop. Today is Sunday and
I in fact talked to a new walk in customer about this just
an
hour ago.

Here is the problem: The learning curve for coins is very,

very, VERY steep at first! This is the defining aspect of
learning to do GOOD coin magic that causes most people
to give up before they really get there. This is really
the truth
of the matter. It is REALLY discouraging to spend months
working on only the basic Classic Palm lets say and never
seem to really get it down pat.

There is another aspect of the difficulty also: What do
you
learn? Why? How? And, in what order? What stuff should
you save for later or skip? You see most of the products
out there that teach close-up sleight-of-hand with coins
are
NOT designed by anyone who have extensively taught the
material and so has no real idea what to teach. You can
spend a disheartening amount of time working on stuff that

is a total waste. Well, maybe not a total waste, but if
putting
time into those items causes you to lose the 'way of the
coin'
(Coin Tao) and give up....well, it was a waste, wasn't it?

I can solve one of the probelms for you, but not the
other.
Although in solving the one, it may help with the other.
Buy
my 3 coin videos and learn the stuff on them. By the time
you are done, you will have a totally kick butt repatoire
of
coin magic that will blow most magicians away. All the
junk
is left out. BUT....the first tape could take some time.
The
second tape is where your really start to see some gains
in
tricks and routines and by the time you finish the 3rd you

will be killing 'em.

BUT!!!!!!....It will take time. I have found though that
if you
have a no B.S. course to follow it is much, much, much
easier to stay with it. Coins just take a little time to
get into,
but I can GUARANTEE that if you keep with it it is much
more satisfying than almost any other form of
sleight-of-hand.

Best,
Brad


Q: Hi Brad,
I already asked a question and I hope I am not a pain. A
magic trick I learned said to "cut the deck keeping the
top
card on the top. Use which ever way is easiest." How do I
do this? Also, I am begginng magic and want to know what
the best book would be for me to get. I am a intermediate
magician and can do some sleight of hand tricks.

Thanks
Gilmore

A: Dear Gilmore:

I try as much as possible to not answer specific method
questions. First, it is really, really hard as I don't
have a clue
what the context of the trick is here. Context goes a long

way in my decision as to what to use. Hint: A simple Slip
Cut would probably work fine.

Personally if you are looking for a great 'general' book
of
magic I would buy the Mark Wilson Book of Magic (about
$30). Incredible selection of catagories.

For cards I would start with Card College Vol. 1 or my
first
two videos, Basics of Expert Card Technique vol.s 1-2.

For coins Bobo's New Modern Coin Magic in the
hardbound full edition is the best. Videos on coins you
have
my first two, Basics of Expert Coin Tech. vol.s 1-2 and
the
first Roth video for the basics. My explanations are
longer
and detailed. If you have the basics down Roth's vid is
great. It goes on and one.

Best,
Brad


Q: Dear Brad

I'm am currently building a Cane Cabinet and i was going
to
add a metamorphosis switch at the end so that i could
return and my assistant could dissapear. i was wondering
if
this would work and if you had any insight on how i could
improve or alter the effect to make it look better. please

write me back with you comments, they are greatly
appreciated.

Magically Yours,
Houdini

A: Dear Mike::

Although there are times when I might be able to offer
some
insight into illusions, this is REALLY not my area. Wish I

could offer some kind of help, but I really can't. Again,
this
might be an opportunity for the readers here to get
involved.


Anyone have an insight here?

Best,
Brad


Q: Dear Brad;

Hate to bug you twice in one month, but this wonderful art

form raises so many questions!!!

Anyway, I was looking on general tips on performing the
Olram Subtlety. I've been able to perform it as an initial

display of four cards (i.e., before anything "magic" is
supposed to have happened), but recently, while practicing

Darwin Ortiz's "Modern Jazz Aces", I don't seem to be able

to pull it off as a convincing vanish display as the trick
calls
for. And Darwin's the guy who says, "Never underestimate
the intelligence of the spectator"!!

Any thoughts on this egregiously bald-faced deception?

Thanks, and keep up the great work,
-Tony

A: Dear Tony:

This sleight is one of those that I would not EVEN what to

describe in print, but I will try to talk you 'around' the

philosophy of the move. Note by the way that I have used
the move for 20 years or more with success.

First, I have to assume for the purpose of this writing
that
you ARE doing the move physically correct. That being
said, the Olram Sub. is one of those moves that can be
destroyed by both lack of confidence in the move itself
and/or guilt. The move must happen smoothly and with total

control and with the greatest confidence that the move
itself
WILL decieve the audience! If you project any hesitation
when the move is performed, you will get busted.

Let me know if this helps at all.
Brad


Q:Dear Mr.Burt

Firstly I would like to congratulate you on a great
question/answers page. I recently saw a guy perform a one
handed card change, which I belive is "Ed Marlo's Snap
Change", however I can't seem to find it in print, Ive
looked
in loads of card magic books but no one seems to have
published it, do you know where I can find the workings of

this?

Thanks
Chris Jowett

A: Dear Chris:

The best source that I know of is The Cardician video by
A-1 which I stock. Cost is $29.95. This is the first of
two
Marlo vids that they bought the rights too and re-issued.
Some nice stuff, but not a terrific vid in my opinion.
Very
cool to see 'The Man' himself and very well produced. I
would have like a better selection of magic. The tape
includes Marlo and the Snap Change and out takes of Ed
screwing the move up, which is delightful. Marlo was a
genius and it is nice to know he was also human!

Best,
Brad


Q: Brad,

Can you suggest any good card routines that utilize a few
different color changes. I'm not looking for a trick but
an
entire routine. And of course I would need to know what
book I can find it in.

Thanks in advance for your help.
Bill Barry

A: Dear Bill:

I am assuming that you mean by Color Changes those
moves in which one hand is waved over the face of the
deck and the card changes to another card? If so...my
heavens! The problem is that the various moves are
scattered all over the place. Some are quite good, but
many
of the moves are not particularly natural, easy or worth
doing. As self serving as this may seem, I would
recommend that you get my Side Steal Video (Normally
$40, but I will send one out for $30 to anyone mentioning
they saw the deal on the Linking Page.) I have been
totally
into the concept of Color Changes for years and have, I
believe, distilled the moves down to the best out there
for
general and continued use. There ARE some moves
available in various books, etc. that have a more narrow
application and look great, but I wanted manipulations
that
could be used not just for the change, but also as a palm,

etc.

You will stumble over various moves as you look around.
Many palming moves can substitute wonderfully.

Best Regards,
Brad


Q: Brad

I'm looking for a routine for the die box. I don't like
the one
that came with it and can't think of any off hand. I would

like to be able to work it in with my ABC blocks.

Thanks!
David M. Tinker

A: Dear David:

Dear David: This is a tough one. The routine that I have
done for years is really the basic/classic routine. Block
goes
into hat or box...wanna see it fly visibly or invisibly,
etc.
Coming up with a good solid patter idea will start the
same
way that any good solid patter or routine idea will and
that
is with a basic concept.

What I mean is this: Look at the trick and the elements
that
you are basically stuck with. A large die. Two or four
door
box. Hat or box, etc. Can the die BE somthing else? What
could it be? A large chunk of gold? A small present the is
to
be given to a child? What? What is the box with the doors?

A bank? A closet? What???

You need to tear down the effect and see what it could be
made into. In order to add the ABC Blocks by the way you
complicate the task immensley! By the way you may end up
complicating it in such a clever why that you end up with
a
really terrible routine that only seems clever until you
try and
do it. Although I have seen it done, for the most part
every
time two differnt effects are routined together the
resulting
product ends up less powerful than if you just did one or
the
other of the effects alone. Note also the the two trick
selected are in fact VERY, VERY similar. This again
compounds the problem of staying away from a possible
repetition.

Read the post a few ago that had to do with writing
patter.
Take Die Box apart and look carefully from the perspective

of your own life experience and see what you can make of
the trick that will be TRULY and UNIQUELY .... YOU.
This process will set you totally aside in your market
area.

Best,
Brad


Q:Brad

Long, long ago I saw a magician perform a trick in which a

large ring (maybe 5" across) was threaded on a silk scarf,

and then the magician held both ends of the scarf so that
the
ring dangled down. Then a smaller ring (maybe 3" across)
was passed over the two ends and moved down the scarf
toward the larger ring, until it visibly passed OVER the
larger ring and off the scarf. It was just a quick, flash
effect,
but I was incredibly impressed. The magician told me it
was
a proprietary effect, and later I got a hint it might have
been
by Okito. But I have not found it in any recent catalogs.
Do
you know anything about this trick, and where I might find

it?

Thanks.
Alan Meyers
-- Alan the Average, the Modest Magician

A: Dear Alan:

This one will be easy as I have not a clue! Sorry. Here is

the perfect chance for the readership of this column to
come
to the aid of a fellow reader. Anyone know of the source
or
derivation or the effect described?

Best,
Brad


Q: Dear Brad

I bought a Chop Cup two months ago on the second hand
magic market. Since I've got it, I've been working on some

manipulations I know. But in Belgium, I can't find a book
or
a video about the chop-cup so I do not know a complete
routine. Could you give me the references of a good book
or video talking of the Chop-Cup.

P.S.: We'll have Kurkova for a lecture at the end of the
month, and I've been said that he has a chop-cup routine.
So I hope...

Thanks!
Teheux Bruno

A: Dear Teheux:

The best thing that I know of is the The Chop Cup video by

Brad Burt. At $40 in PAL or NTSC format this is the video
to get. Includes a full professional routine and all the
sleights
to do it. 60 minutes in length.

Sadly, there really is very little else out there. If you
can find
the Chop Cup book published by Mark Wilson on the used
market it is a gem and well worth adding to your library,
but
very hard to find.

Best,
Brad


Q: Brad

I wanted to know how someone begins a career as a
profesional magician. What types of jobs are out there for

magicians and how would you go about getting those jobs?
What kinds of places are there to work? I know about
restaurants and birthday parties. What are some other
places? What are the types of routines you would perform
in these places?

Thank You,
Efrem

A: Dear Efrem:

This is a BIG question! Literally an entire book could be
and has been written about what, where and how of doing
magic. Here is the quicky version:

First, there are tons of ways to perform and make money
with magic. Children's shows, shows for various clubs and
groups. Trade Show work for businesses is extremely
difficult to break into, but the money is huge. You can do

seminars, etc. using magic. If you are so inclined you do
a
'Copperfield' and get into the big stuff. It goes on and
on.
Bar magic and restaurant work.

Talking about the 'what' to do is just too big. Look at
the
particular venue and the types and size of the effects
will be
obvious. Interestingly enough some stage shows are using
close-up projected on a screen, etc.

Good Luck!
Brad


Q:Brad

I am a new magician, know basically all the sleights with
coins, I am trying to put together a routine of
misdirection
(i.e. Flip coin in air and disapears) but canot find how
to put
this together smoothly. Can you offer any help?

Thanks for all your help,
Anonymous J

A: Dear Anonymous J:

I have thought about this and I don't think that I have
enough info. To be honest I am not sure what you mean.
Can you be a little more specific with what you want to do

before I attempt a real answer. Best,

Best,
Brad


Q:Brad

>Dennis Loomis Since you're brainstorming on the Miser's
Dream... who do you think of as the greats in this
Department?

I can think of Norm Nielsen, Dick Oslund, Neil Foster,
Geoffrey Buckingham, Dale Salwak, Jeff McBride, Ed
"Manipo" Harris, etc. Who did I miss?

Thanks,
>Dennis Loomis

A: Dear Dennis:

You seem to have hit the high points except for: T. Nelson

Downs; Robert Houdin and in modern times my good
friend Terry Godfrey. Terry is a terrific magician who
does
a superlative classic Miser's Dream. Watch for him at
fairs
around the country.

Best,
Brad


Q:Brad

Have you ever done white, gray, or black magic?

Are there any magic words in to bringing a friend back
from
an all girls school?

Are there words to get me straight "A's"? I mean in
magical
terms?

Is there a way of magic to have someone fall in love with
them?

Thanks
Joei

A: Dear Joei:

No. Also, the fact is that, and I quote Anton LeVey the
high
priest of the Church of Satan, "All witchcraft or occult
magic is 'black'....since God has nothing to do with it it
is by
definition done by the power of Satan."

I suggest you stay as far away from the stuff as you can
get.
The power involved is a sham and dangerous because of
that.

Best,
Brad


Q: Dear Brad

I'm looking for a good source to learn the Rhumba count
(book, video, etc) to use as an alternate handling for the

"Caterpillar Love" effect.

Thanks in advance for any pointers!.
Matt Curtiss

A: Dear Matt:

Looked everywhere and the only source I found was in a
packet effect by John Bannon called Call Of The Wild!
Explains the count, etc. Best,

Best,
Brad


Q: Dear Brad

I'm trying to learn the muscle pass (to make coins fly up)

but when I try it, nothing happens. In The GAGS video, Jim

Pace teaches it, but all he says is to put the coin in a
classic
palm position and squeeze. When I squeeze the coin, it
just
falls to the side. Do you have any tips or advice?

Thanks!
John Mathai

A: Dear John:

This move is one that some guys get right away and some
don't. I was one who did not. You MUST be willing to
spend time developing the muscles of the hand you will be
using. It is also helpful to build up a callus on the palm
the
coin will 'pop' off of during the execution of the move.

I know that this has been said before, but the only way to

really learn it is to try and try again. Look at it
logically and
look at what is supposed to be happening. Your hand
squeezes and applies pressure to the sides of the coin.
The
coin wants out. As the pressure escalates you move the
hand in such a manner that it allows the coin to escape in

one direction causeing it to POP up and out of the hand.
Go
for it!

Best Regards,
Brad


Q:Brad

IF THE AWAKENING OF THE INTEGRAL FORCES
OF THE UNIVERSE HAD THE EFFECT THAT I
PREDICT,WILL SLOW INHUMANE MORTALS BE
DEVOURED BY THE PESTILENCE

Jacob Loftin Harrison

A: Dear Jacob:

No and yes.

The ontological predictability of gradualism as expressed
in
general and specific existential and quantum physics is
almost sure to add a variable that you have not taken into

account. See Hume's discourses on predictability and
unstable pre-theoretical systems. Also Kant's writings on
same.

Best Regards,
Brad


| This Month's Questions and Answers |
| What is “The Magic Word” | Ask Your Question |The
Archive|

Want more traffic on your Magic Site?
Have Your Site Added to White Rabbit "The Linking Page"
for
free!
Please email information or feedback to me at:
White...@linkingpage.com THANKS!


Internet Services Provided by:

NetDepot

Mitchell Leary

unread,
Apr 23, 2001, 10:29:27 PM4/23/01
to
Ever hear of Ed Marlo? Its Marlo spelled backwards. Look there.

World Litho

unread,
Apr 24, 2001, 2:56:28 PM4/24/01
to
It is a method of displaying the cards to promote in the spectator the
assumption that they have seen something they haven't. It was invented by Ed
Marlo (Olram is Marlo sdrawkcab), who saw it as more of a finesse intended
for occasional displays. Nick Trost took it and created the Eight Card
Brainwave, an effect that relies almost entirely on the Olram Subtlety. You
can find Trost's routine in his excellent book, The Card Magic of Nick
Trost. Many other routines have sprung up from this basic idea.

Jim

Jack Poulter

unread,
Apr 24, 2001, 10:02:53 PM4/24/01
to

World Litho <worl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message ...

> It is a method of displaying the cards to promote in the spectator the
> assumption that they have seen something they haven't.

A description of this subterfuge and various others may be found in the
inexpensive "Counts, Cuts, Moves and Subtlety" by Jerry Mentzer.
Most dealers can supply it.


Joe Morris

unread,
Apr 25, 2001, 12:51:15 AM4/25/01
to
"World Litho" <worl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:B70B1A6C.4A40%worl...@pacbell.net...

> It is a method of displaying the cards to promote in the spectator the
> assumption that they have seen something they haven't. It was invented by
Ed
> Marlo (Olram is Marlo sdrawkcab), who saw it as more of a finesse intended
> for occasional displays. Nick Trost took it and created the Eight Card
> Brainwave, an effect that relies almost entirely on the Olram Subtlety.
You
> can find Trost's routine in his excellent book, The Card Magic of Nick
> Trost. Many other routines have sprung up from this basic idea.

The Eight Card Brainwave inlucding the Olram Subtlety is also illustrated
with all credits by Michael Ammar in Volume 1 of Easy to Master Card
Miracles. Highly recommended.

Joe Morris

0 new messages