Love spell question.
catherine yronwode
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm new here and to magick as well, so please excuse my inexperience.
> While I believe there is more to life than we can see or science can
> explain, I am a little skeptical. I am also desperate and ready to
> take a leap of faith.
>
> I am looking for a spell to make a specific person fall in love with
> me. We are alread fiendly, but as I am a client of hers the
> relationship has been very "professional."
>
> I am looking at sites like www.magic-love-spells.com
> www.calastrology.com and www.spellmaker.com
>
> Does anybody know anything about these sites? Also, given that I do
> have some faith that this is possible, what are my chances that this
> is really going to work? I'm sort of pinning all my hopes to this.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
If i were you (but i'm not) i would try to work a love spell that
does not require so much expense. Being "desperate" as you say
you are, it is probable that you will not have great success with
your first attempts. In my experience, the best time to begin the
practice of magic is when one is relaxed, confident, and suffused
with a sense of power and strength. Of course, many folks report
that their first successful magical act was born of desperation
-- but i have heard from as many or more who fail at their first
attempts due to being over-anxious and only begin to succeed when
they start to feel confident in their abilities.
The best love spells are often quite simple -- a honey jar, a
pair of lodestones, some of your own spiritual and sexual essence
slipped into a drink offered to the one you wish to attract. I
have used such spells myself, never paying for the "secret," just
working with common herbs and minerals, using well-known
folkloric spells -- and i have had some great successes. Because
such love spells worked well for me, i long ago put together a
web page presenting dozens of such spells. The information is
completely free. The tools may be as simple as a 4" red candle or
a few herbs steeped in wine -- or there may be no "tools" per se,
as in some of the spells from the Chaos Magic and hoodoo
traditions, where a glance or a bit of sexual fluid may be the
entirety of what is needed on the physical plane.
If you want to spend a lot of money at those places, you are
welcome to do so, of course. Meanwhile, the collections of free
love spells collection i have assembled is indexed here:
http://www.luckymojo.com/lovespells.html
In the spirit of full disclosure, i will mention that i do own
and operate a small spiritual supply company, but there is no
obligation to buy from me if you use the free spells i provide at
my site, as most of the ingredients can be found in rock shops,
grocery stores, or local occult shops around the world. Even the
dressing oils mentioned in some of the spells can be home-made,
and there are free recipes online for several popular
love-drawing oils at this web page of mine:
http://www.luckymojo.com/spells.recipes.html
Of all the love spells i have tried in my 56 years, i can
sincerely recommend those performed with sexual fluids,
lodestones, and candles as the strongest in my personal
experience -- and it is safe to say that no one at any of the
companies you listed is going to work with your sexual fluids --
only you can do that.
Good luck.
Cordially,
cat yronwode
catherine yronwode
catherine yronwode wrote:
> there are free recipes online for several popular
> love-drawing oils at this web page of mine:
>
> http://www.luckymojo.com/spells.recipes.html
Should be: http://www.luckymojo.com/spells/recipes.html
Cordially,
cat yronwode
Jim
"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:4042DFD6...@luckymojo.com...
Jim
Do you have more love spells? I have a tough case here and been struggling
with no success for the apast 8 months. I need help.
Thanks.
Jim
"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:4042B7C2...@luckymojo.com...
Mary
Really?
I mean - wouldn't it make more sense to do it yourself, then to do something
someone already did?
I'm not being judgemental,
I'm just curious
:)
"Jim" <ki...@cbn.net.id> wrote in message news:4070...@news.cbn.net.id...
catherine yronwode
>
> Hi Cat,
> Do you have more love spells? I have a tough case here and been
> struggling with no success for the apast 8 months. I need help.
> Thanks.
> Jim
Set yourself a time limit for this work and if it does not
conclude satisfactorily in that allotted time, move on. If you
have had no results in 8 months, it is highly likely that the
person you are working on does not want you and is capable of
repelling both magical and physical advances. Remember, magic is
no more guaranteed than prayer or than physical effort are
guaranteed to work.
Cordially,
cat yronwode
Hoodoo in Theory and Practice - http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html
Jim
fanatic and her room has numerous religious items, this may add to the
"fortress" as one physcic told me. A coercive spell is a way to go if I were
to penerate the defenses. Any comments please?
"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:4070EDAE...@luckymojo.com...
Tom
"Jim" <ki...@hotpop.com> wrote in message news:4076948d$1...@news.cbn.net.id...
> I'm actually a sceptic and this is maybe it wont work. She's a catholic
> fanatic and her room has numerous religious items, this may add to the
> "fortress" as one physcic told me. A coercive spell is a way to go if I
were
> to penerate the defenses. Any comments please?
Fighting her defenses will get you nowhere. Coopt them. Make her defenses
work for you.
Become a fanatic catholic yourself.
Can you?
Jim
I'm a born catholic myself but far from fanatic. It is not the road I'd like
to walk now. I'm obessed for 8 months and would like to return the favour.
Out of great curiousity, I'd like to see if black magick coercive
controlling love spell will work, and I'll take the risk of a backfire.
In luckymojo.com there's several spells. I'm defenitely will NOT boil or
harm an animal as suggested in Black cat spell. But "love me or die"
http://www.luckymojo.com/lovespells.html#lovemeordiejackball spell is quite
tempting, but indicated as a spell directed for a woman to bind a man. Did I
get it wrong? I'm interested in performing a spell with graveyard
dirt/goofer dust. In fact, I happen to possess a dirt from a local ancient
sacret graveyard dirt, but currently have no idea how to use them properly.
Sprinkle in in her yard where she will step on it? What else?
"Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:oXydc.2456$k05....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Rick
> I'm defenitely will NOT boil or
> harm an animal as suggested in Black cat spell.
It's always good to set ethical boundaries before doing spells.
> But "love me or die"
> [link deleted] spell is quite
> tempting,
Just so we have this straight, if your spell can't make her love you
you're willing for the spell to kill her? But you won't boil a cat?
That's very interesting.
Rick
Brett
<psy...@iopanIsRetired.yahoo.com> muttered intensely:
>
>Just so we have this straight, if your spell can't make her love you
>you're willing for the spell to kill her? But you won't boil a cat?
>
What did the cat ever do to him?
But hey, if she's not willing to love him, then the bitch deserves to
die? Right? <rolls eyes>
(Speaks volumes about what he calls love.)
****
Brett (He's just some guy, you know?)
"Fair" is a Human Ideological Concept.
Jim
>
> But hey, if she's not willing to love him, then the bitch deserves to
> die? Right? <rolls eyes>
LOL.
Right on.
"Brett" <xxbw...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:fbod701jh1rvc6ijs...@4ax.com...
catherine yronwode
>
> "love me or die"
> http://www.luckymojo.com/lovespells.html#lovemeordiejackball
> spell is quite tempting, but indicated as a spell
> directed for a woman to bind a man. Did I
> get it wrong?
That is correct -- it is a spell that a woman performs to
coerce a man. To change the gender, use a Queen Elizabeth
Root instead of a John the Conqueror Root. All other gender
references may then be changed and it would be symbolically
appropriate.
> I'm interested in performing a spell with graveyard
> dirt/goofer dust. In fact, I happen to possess
> a dirt from a local ancient
> sacret graveyard dirt, but currently have
> no idea how to use them properly.
> Sprinkle in in her yard where she will step on it? What else?
No, you do not sprinkle it in her yard but on the person (or
on their clothes or in their shoes). There is a graveyard
dirt love spell online about a third of the way down the
Graveyard Dirt page at
http://www.luckymojo.com/graveyarddirt.html
along with an old blues song describing the spell -- and
another version of it using Goofer Dust (a compound made
with graveyard dirt) can be found as Hyatt spell #659 about
a third of the way down the Goofer Dust page at
http://www.luckymojo.com/gooferdust.html
Cordially,
cat yronwode
Herb and Root Magic --- http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodooherbmagic.html
Tom
"Jim" <ki...@hotpop.com> wrote in message news:4076...@news.cbn.net.id...
> No, not now. But, phycologically you're right.
> I'm a born catholic myself but far from fanatic. It is not the road
> I'd like to walk now. I'm obessed for 8 months and would like
> to return the favour.
You're obsession is a weak one, if something as small as changing your
religious habits is too much to ask of you for the hand of the fair maiden
in question. I'm not sure you can summon enough juice to fire up a really
good love spell if that's the limit of what you're willing to do to get the
girl. To make this sort of thing work, especially in tough cases, you have
to be ready to sacrifice a great deal.
> Out of great curiousity, I'd like to see if black magick coercive
> controlling love spell will work, and I'll take the risk of a backfire.
If she's the submissive type, it might work. It probably won't if she's got
a backbone. If she does, she may be stronger than you. Then you'll be the
one dancing and she'll be the one calling the tune. And if she actively
dislikes you for your attempts to bully and coerce her, a very likely
possibility, the tune could be very disagreeable. That's part of the fun of
black magick. It's dangerous. You could get your ass kicked.
> I'm interested in performing a spell with graveyard
> dirt/goofer dust. In fact, I happen to possess a dirt from a local ancient
> sacret graveyard dirt, but currently have no idea how to use them
properly.
> Sprinkle in in her yard where she will step on it? What else?
You may not need anything else. Try it and see.
Tom
"Rick" <psy...@iopanIsRetired.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c56mcg$brl$1...@daisy.noc.ucla.edu...
>
> Just so we have this straight, if your spell can't make her love you
> you're willing for the spell to kill her? But you won't boil a cat?
>
> That's very interesting.
How about this plan? He tells her, "If you don't make love to me, I'll boil
this cat!" Then, if she refuses him and he does have to boil the cat, he
can blame her.
Jim
Quote:"Use the pen knife to carve a slit-shaped hole in the root and wedge
your hair and his hair in there together." Is this potion (woman clit on the
jack the conqueror still necesarry? what to do on the substitute: Queen
Elizabeth Root ?
Regarding the dirt:
Hmm... I don't think I have the audacity to throw anything to her Cat.. :)
but I think I can sneak a tiny amount inside her shoe. Just the graveyard
dirt? What else/rituals/ingridients should I do/mix with the graveyard dirt
to bind her love? This graveyard dirt in no usual dirt. It is over 10 year
old in possesion of one of my staff taken from a really powerful spiritual
grave. (there's a magical story behind the accumulation of it) And I'd like
to be well informed on how to properly make a good use of this dirt for
love.
As an example, my staff has sprinkle some of the dirt to his enemy's shop,
and ask beforehand that the spirit on the dirt to stop any sales coming in
for 3 days. According to him, it work immediately! The shop cannot sell
anything for 3 days straight.
Cat, Do you supply most ingridients of love me or die spells?
Regards,
Jim
"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:40772618...@luckymojo.com...
catherine yronwode
>
> Thanks for the tips.
> Quote:"Use the pen knife to carve a slit-shaped hole in the root and wedge
> your hair and his hair in there together." Is this potion (woman clit on the
> Elizabeth Root ?
Well, that is an interesting question. I learned this spell, as i
explained on the web page, from a woman who told me how to use it
on a man. I would not think that carving a penis-shape on the
Queen Elizabeth root would be appropriate, though, and it would
certainly not provide a place to wedge in the hairs. So i'd go
with the slit on that one too. Remember, you are adapting an old
spell to a new use. It's up to you to work with the materials in
a way that suits your own symbological relationship to them.
> Regarding the dirt:
> Hmm... I don't think I have the audacity to throw anything to her Cat.. :)
You need not throw it -- you could put a light dusting of it on
your hand (by carrying it in your pocket) and then put your hand
on her secretly -- for instance on her shoulder or back -- as you
touch her. You don't want to make a big mess, just get some on
her.
> but I think I can sneak a tiny amount inside her shoe.
Putting such powders in the shoes is an ancient African
technique.
> Just the graveyard dirt? What else/rituals/ingridients
> should I do/mix with the graveyard dirt to bind her love?
One version of the spell, given at my site, specifies adding
Vandal Root powder. The other says just to use the graveyard dirt
plain. But there is more to this form of magical rootwork than
just pantomiming an action. You would pray over the dirt and
state your petition to the spirit whose grave it came from. You
are enlisting that spirit of the dead to help you. This is in
line with ancient African magic spells of many types, in which
the spirits of the dead are contacted through what the British
magician Aleister Crowley called a "magical link" -- the link in
this case being to them through their graveyard dirt. Likewise,
in the root spell, the woman you are working on is contacted
through the magical link of her hair.
> This graveyard dirt in no usual dirt. It is over 10 year
> old in possesion of one of my staff taken from a really powerful spiritual
> grave. (there's a magical story behind the accumulation of it) And I'd like
> to be well informed on how to properly make a good use of this dirt for
> love.
>
> As an example, my staff has sprinkle some of the dirt to his enemy's shop,
> and ask beforehand that the spirit on the dirt to stop any sales coming in
> for 3 days. According to him, it work immediately! The shop cannot sell
> anything for 3 days straight.
The spirits of the dead are said to powerful allies if petitioned
with sincerity and if they agree to do the work asked of them.
> Cat, Do you supply most ingridients of love me or die spells?
You already have the graveyard dirt. The other goods i do carry
in my shop, yes. I sell the vandal root as chips rather than
powder, so you would need to grind it up in a coffee grinder, but
everything else would be suitable for use as it comes. The shop
catalogue is online at
http://www.luckymojo.com/catalogue.html
By the way, i am pleased to see that you are not letting the
group's typical skeptical hecklers and anti-magical nay-sayers
bother you. You seem to understand that magic is no more
guaranteed than anything else is -- and that when folks tell you
to seduce her with sweet talk or some other mundane technique,
they are also offering non-guaranteed advice.
In conclusion, i personally would not perform such a coercive
love spell myself -- i prefer willing love -- and i cannot chance
a guess on whether this work will succeed for you or not, but i
congratulate your determination. Do remember what i said about
setting a time limit for the work, though. Set it now, before you
begin the spell-craft itself. I speak from experience (mine and
that of my friends and customers) when i say that i would not
wish you to become more obsessed than you already are if the
spells fail.
Cordially,
cat yronwode
Jim
that I've learnt a lot from.
It's very unfortunate that I cannot visit or call you due that I live in
Indonesia. However, I've sent email yesterday to you regarding sales and
freight question for luckymojo.com. Please kindly advice.
"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:4077866F...@luckymojo.com...
Jim
backbone although she does still have feelings toward me as well another
relationship at hand. The good thing is that I'm not as obsessed as before,
but I got to do this to the best effort I can do. If it still fails, gee...
I've acquired lots of interesting info and new experiences in the process.
"Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:WmHdc.3781$A_4....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
~Jim
Tom
"Jim" <ki...@hotpop.com> wrote in message news:4077...@news.cbn.net.id...
> Thanks Cat, you and your work has been THE ONLY major
> source of information that I've learnt a lot from.
Some people learn from only a few sources. Others learn from many. It
depends on how closed your mind is.
The Natural Philosopher
And very few learn anything of value from Cat, and none at all from Tom.
>
Tom
"The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:4077FDC4.3000503@b.c...
As I say, it depends on how closed your mind is.
catherine yronwode
>
> Thanks Cat, you and your work has
> been THE ONLY major source of information
> that I've learnt a lot from.
Thanks.
> It's very unfortunate that I cannot
> visit or call you due that I live in
> Indonesia. However, I've sent email
> yesterday to you regarding sales and
> freight question for luckymojo.com.
> Please kindly advice.
I do not handle sales for Lucky Mojo. Address your queries
to Susie or Carin at or...@luckymojo.com. Shipping overseas
can be complicated, so be patient with the process and be
prepared to pay a significant amount for the airmail
shipping of anything heavy in weight.
cat yronwode
Lucky Mojo Curio Co. http://www.luckymojo.com/catalogue.html
Send e-mail with your street address to cata...@luckymojo.com
and receive our free catalogue of hoodoo supplies and amulets
~Jim
I'm very open to new sources, especially if it comes from you :) as you seem
to be very knowledgable in your stuff.
"Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:C_Sdc.3601$k05...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
~Jim
> your hand (by carrying it in your pocket) and then put your hand
> on her secretly -- for instance on her shoulder or back -- as you
> touch her. You don't want to make a big mess, just get some on
> her.
Cat, is this what you're talking about? (sprinkling graveyard dirt)
QUOTE:
http://www.luckymojo.com/gooferdust.html
-------------------
659. (What is goofer dust?)
Dey tell me -- now if -- goofer dust is jes' lak if yo' have loved
somebody -- this is whut they tell me, if yo' loved 'em an' they have died
an' been dead fo' a number of yeahs, then yo' goes to this graveyard where
they's been buried an' yo' dig right down underneath dis bo'd, or undah --
jes' lak it was a rock [tombstone] dere of some kind. Yo' git de dust from
there an' yo' sprinkle it on yo' jes' lak yo'd wanta go fo' somebody {just
like you'd sprinkle a love powder on yourself if you wanted to attract
somebody}. Then yo'd sprinkle it on the next person that chew wanta love.
That will make them fall in love with yo'.
{At this point in the interview, some confusion resulted as Hyatt turned his
machine off prematurely and had to re-ask questions, which seems to have
intimidated the interviewee. I have sharply condensed what follows to avoid
repetition.}
(You goofer them you say. What do you mean by goofer them?...Is that doing
them good or doing them harm?)
Well, yo'd be making them love yo'...Dat means dat chew be in love wit'
me -- jes' lak if ah would wanta make yo' love me, den ah'd have tuh
continue jes' keep it on yo'. {In other words, goofer dust from the grave of
a deceased lover produces thrall-like love, not natural love, and the dust
must be reapplied continually to keep the lover in thrall.}
--------------
To Cat and all, do you know more information on uses of graveyard dirt for
love? To be specific, a spell recipe for coercive love spell casting. Not
from your website, I read em all.
Thanks for the help.
~Jim
"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:40787DFB...@luckymojo.com...
Tom
"~Jim" <ki...@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:40780ee6$1...@news.cbn.net.id...
> So far, it is the only source I can get my hands on.
> I'm very open to new sources, especially if it comes from you :) as you
seem
> to be very knowledgable in your stuff.
The use of graveyard dust for all sorts of purposes is dealt with
extensively in the 5-volume "Hoodoo - Conjuration - Witchcraft - Rootwork",
by folklorist Harry Middleton Hyatt. Anything Cat can tell you about it is
likely to be from this set of books or from someone strongly influenced by
them. So get them for yourself and you'll have the definitive collection of
such spells.
catherine yronwode
By following a cross-post Tom has escaped my alt.magick
kill-filter, allowing me to supply some information to counter
his false assumptions about me and my work.
> "~Jim" <ki...@hotpop.com> wrote:
> > So far, it [luckymojo.com] is the only source I can get my hands on.
> > I'm very open to new sources, especially if it comes from you :)
> > as you seem to be very knowledgable in your stuff.
> The use of graveyard dust for all sorts of purposes is dealt with
> extensively in the 5-volume "Hoodoo - Conjuration - Witchcraft - Rootwork",
> by folklorist Harry Middleton Hyatt.
True. You will also find graveyard dirt spells for love,
protection, moving people, and so forth mentioned in some detail
among these books and articles:
[Anon.]. "Folklore and Ethnology" Southern Workmen and Hampton
School Record. Volume 28, March, 1899.
[Anon.]. "Folklore and Ethnology" Southern Workmen and Hampton
School Record. Volume 28, August, 1899.
[Anon.] "The Religious Life of the Negro Slave" Harper's New
Monthly.. September, October, November, 1863.
Bacon, Miss A[lice]. M. "Folklore and Ethnology: Conjuring and
Conjure Doctors in the Southern United States" Southern Workmen
and Hampton School Record. Volume 24, December, 1895.
Chesnutt, Charles Wadell. The Conjure Woman. Houghton, Mifflin &
Co., 1899.
Cullin, Stewart. "Concerning Negro Sorcery in the United States."
Journal of American Folklore. Volume 3, 1890.
Davis, Daniel Webster. "Folklore and Ethnology: Conjuration"
Southern Workmen and Hampton School Record. Volume 27, December, 1898.
Herron, Leonora. "Folklore and Ethnology: Conjuring and Conjure
Doctors in the Southern United States," Southern Workmen and
Hampton School Record. Volume 24 [in two parts], July and
November, 1895.
Herron, Leonora and Bacon, Miss A[lice]. M. "Folklore Scrapbook"
Journal of American Folklore. Volume 9, 1896. [A "reprint in
extenso" of the 1895 three-part "Conjuring and Conjure Doctors in
the Southern United States," by Herron (two parts) and Bacon (one
part); listed here for the sake of completion only.]
Hurston, Zora Neale. Mules and Men. J. B. Lippincott, 1935.
Reprinted, Harper Collins, 1990.
---------. "Hoodoo in America" Journal of American Folklore.
Volume 44, 1931.
---------. The Federal Writers Project in Florida. The Negro in
Florida, 1528-1940. [unpublished incomplete ms.] [n.d., circa 1940.]
Moore, Ruby Andrews. "Superstitions From Georgia" Journal of
American Folklore. Volume 7, 1894.
Norris, Thaddeus. "Negro Superstitions" Lippincott's Magazine.
July 1870.
Owen, Mary Alicia. Voodoo Tales as Told Among the Negroes of the
Southwest, Collected from Original Sources. Putnam, 1893.
Park, Sallie M. "Voodooism in Tennessee" Atlantic Monthly,
September 1889.
Puckett, Newbell Niles. Folk Beliefs of the Southern Negro.
University of North Carolina Press, 1926.
Steiner, Roland. "Observations of the Practice of Conjuring in
Georgia" Journal of American Folklore. Volume 14, 1901.
> Anything Cat can tell you about it is
> likely to be from this set of books or
> from someone strongly influenced by
> them.
False. (1) See the books and magazine articles listed above that
predate (and hence are not "influenced by") Hyatt's collection,
which was first published in 1970-1978. Tom has the cart before
the horse -- by more than one hundred years, in the cases of
Thaddeus Norris and the anonymous author of "The Religious Life
of the Negro Slave."
False. (2) I have been collecting such folkloric magic spells
from practitioners and from antiquarian books since 1962, which
is about a decade before Hyatt's "Hoodoo - Conjuration -
Witchcraft - Rootwork" was published. Hyatt is well-known now --
and deservedly so -- but he was not a source during the first ten
years i spent learning the subject. Tom again has the cart before
the horse.
> So get them for yourself and you'll have the
> definitive collection of such spells.
Semi-True. You will have an astounding collection. I certainly
would call it "definitive" for rural pre-World War II hoodoo, but
it is not "definitive" for the magical system as a whole because
there are many hoodoo spells -- whole CLASSES of spells -- that
have been developed since Hyatt did his field work in the South
in 1936-1940. Hoodoo is a living tradition.
For instance, the "Love Me Or Die" spell utilizing graveyard dirt
or goofer dust that i related on the web page previously cited in
this thread is not found in Hyatt's books -- for i learned it in
Chicago in 1965, not in Mississippi in 1936.
Going beyond graveyard dirt, which represents the oldest layer of
African magic in hoodoo, an example of a major change to hoodoo
that came about after Hyatt's collection cut-off date in 1940
concerns candle spells. Before the publication of Henri Gamache's
"Master Book of Candle Burning" in 1942, there were few if any
"moving candle" spells -- after Gamache wrote about them, they
became extremely popular and new ones were added to the
repertoire rapidly. By the time i was a teenager collecting
spells in the 1960s, Gamache had revolutionized candle-burning
magic among rootwork practitioners and moving candle spells were
everywhere in the community. When Hyatt's 1930s-era research was
finally released in the mid 1970s, i was amazed at the LACK of
such spells in his collection. This led me to pinpoint the
development of the technique to Gamache's book, as "The Master
Book of Candle Burning" laid out all the elements for this type
of spell and had been in print continually since the year it was
first published.
A second major change not chronicled by Hyatt hit hoodoo in the
1970s, with the arrival in the USA of many Cuban immigrants who
brought with them their own African diasporic tradition of
burning glass-encased "novena candles" as part of their rites of
Catholic magical prayers. It was not very long before these
candles -- stripped of all references to or images of Catholic
saints -- were renamed "vigil lights" and decorated with images
taken from traditional hoodoo formulas like Fast Luck, Come To
Me, and Court Case. They then appeared all around the USA,
starting in Chicago, with the Lama Temple's introduction of
silk-screened vigil lights. Because these candles are encased in
glass, new methods for dressing them had to be developed, and a
new system of divination by reading the wax leavings was devised.
None of this existed when Hyatt undertook his massive field work
project, and you will find nothing about it in books on hoodoo
published prior to around 1980.
Hoodoo is a living tradition and can be studied first hand by
anyone willing to talk to African American practitioners about
it. As for Hyatt's "influence" on hoodoo, i will go so far as to
say that until the mid 1990s, when i put the first web page about
Harry Hyatt online, few practitioners had even heard of him and
his books, which had been published 30 years earlier in a limited
edition of 3,000 copies and distributed only among academic
libraries.
The examples given of pre-Hyatt publications and post-Hyatt
developments in hoodoo are not presented in order to dispute
Tom's statement that Hyatt's collection contains a large number
of graveyard dirt spells (for it certainly does) or to diminish
in any way the impact Hyatt has had on academic folklorists, but
simply to set aright the erroneous impression Tom has given to
the public that all of the graveyard dirt (or coercive love)
spells found at my site come from "from this set of [Hyatt's]
books or from someone strongly influenced by them."
Cordially,
Tom
> Tom wrote:
>
> By following a cross-post Tom has escaped my alt.magick
> kill-filter,
And why should this matter to anybody but you? As usual, however, you seem
to think that your private travails are big news.
> allowing me to supply some information to counter
> his false assumptions about me and my work.
By all means, consider yourself allowed. I give you permission justy this
once. Afetr that, you are hereby instructed to stuff even more cotton in
your ears so that you won't have to hear any unpleasant truths.
And lest anyone else make any false assumptions about the accuracy of your
many claims, let me quote from your web site regarding graveyard dust. We
wouldn't want anyone to assume falsely that anything you sell actually does
anything special.
"We do not make any supernatural claims for graveyard dirt, and sell it as a
Curio only."
> > Anything Cat can tell you about it is
> > likely to be from this set of books or
> > from someone strongly influenced by
> > them.
>
> False. (1) See the books and magazine articles listed above that
> predate (and hence are not "influenced by") Hyatt's collection,
> which was first published in 1970-1978. Tom has the cart before
> the horse -- by more than one hundred years, in the cases of
> Thaddeus Norris and the anonymous author of "The Religious Life
> of the Negro Slave."
In your article on graveyard dust (
http://www.luckymojo.com/graveyarddirt.html ), the only academic source you
cite for your information is Harry M. Hyatt. So, despite your intellectual
pretensions, the likely source for anything you have to say about this lore
is from Hyatt. There may be a few small spells, here and there, that aren't
mentioned in Hyatt, but I suspect they're rare. We can exclude any spell
that you made up yourself or adapted because you, my dear, again despite
your intellectual pretensions, have been heavily influenced by Harry M.
Hyatt.
"In the 1930s, Harry M. Hyatt collected information about hoodoo from 1,600
African-American informants, and one of them gave him a variation of the
Graveyard Dirt Love Spell. It is simpler than Baron Blanc's version, in that
it does not include the Vandal Root, but it is also much more direct because
rather than hide the materials under your bed, as Baron Blanc suggests, you
sprinkle the graveyard dirt on yourself when you go to be near the one whom
you wish to attract. This is the way i was told to do it, too."
> False. (2) I have been collecting such folkloric magic spells
> from practitioners and from antiquarian books since 1962, which
> is about a decade before Hyatt's "Hoodoo - Conjuration -
> Witchcraft - Rootwork" was published. Hyatt is well-known now --
> and deservedly so -- but he was not a source during the first ten
> years i spent learning the subject. Tom again has the cart before
> the horse.
Bah. Quite a bit of the stuff from Hyatt's later work came from his
"Folklore From Adams County Illinois", published in 1935. So, by the time
you started your study, Hyatt's information was already available.
> > So get them for yourself and you'll have the
> > definitive collection of such spells.
>
> Semi-True.
As close to true as makes any difference to the guy I was talking to. And
definitely not a "false assumption" on my part.
> You will have an astounding collection. I certainly
> would call it "definitive" for rural pre-World War II hoodoo, but
> it is not "definitive" for the magical system as a whole because
> there are many hoodoo spells -- whole CLASSES of spells -- that
> have been developed since Hyatt did his field work in the South
> in 1936-1940. Hoodoo is a living tradition.
That's correct. You, like everybody else with an ounce of creativity, make
it up as you go along.
> For instance, the "Love Me Or Die" spell utilizing graveyard dirt
> or goofer dust that i related on the web page previously cited in
> this thread is not found in Hyatt's books -- for i learned it in
> Chicago in 1965, not in Mississippi in 1936.
Who have you killed with it? Or is that the part you made up?
> Going beyond graveyard dirt, which represents the oldest layer of
> African magic in hoodoo, an example of a major change to hoodoo
> that came about after Hyatt's collection cut-off date in 1940
> concerns candle spells.
Now, in a further effort to overload the reader with useless and irrelevant
information, you completely leave off any of those "false assumptions" you
claim I made and go blabbering about candle magic.
Go back to hiding behind your killfile, you pretentious, gossip-mongering
huckster. You've failed again.
catherine yronwode
>
> To Cat and all, do you know more information on uses of graveyard dirt for
> love? To be specific, a spell recipe for coercive love spell casting. Not
> from your website, I read em all.
>
> Thanks for the help.
I think you may be seeking complication and multiplicity where
there is no need for any. Using graveyard dirt for coercive love
spells is both simple and widespread in the African American
magical community -- so there is no need to create variations or
fancier spells. It works because of your link to the spirit from
whose grave the dirt was ritually gathered.
catherine yronwode
>
> "catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote
> >
> > Tom wrote
>
> > > Anything Cat can tell you about it is
> > > likely to be from this set of books or
> > > from someone strongly influenced by
> > > them.
> >
> > False. (1) See the books and magazine articles listed above that
> > predate (and hence are not "influenced by") Hyatt's collection,
> > which was first published in 1970-1978. Tom has the cart before
> > the horse -- by more than one hundred years, in the cases of
> > Thaddeus Norris and the anonymous author of "The Religious Life
> > of the Negro Slave."
>
> In your article on graveyard dust
> ( http://www.luckymojo.com/graveyarddirt.html ), the only academic
> source you cite for your information is Harry M. Hyatt.
All of the sources i listed in my previous post and many more,
are cited in full in the bibliography of my book "Hoodoo Herb and
Root Magic."
The table of contents page for "Hoodoo in Theory and Practice"
(of which the graveyard spells page is but one small part) is at
http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html
and there i give a brief bibliographical listing of the books
that will be most readily available through amazon.com and ebay
auctions to the practical rootworker who does not have access to
a university library, namely:
----begin web page extract----
BIBLIOGRAPHY OF PRINTED SOURCES
Albertus Magnus (ascribed), Ancient Egyptian Secrets;
Anonymous, Aunt Sally's Policy Players Dream Book;
Anonymous, 6th & 7th Books of Moses;
De Claremont, Ancient Book of Formulas,
De Claremont, Legends of Incense, Herbs, and Oil Magic;
Gamache/Moses, 8th, 9th, and 10th Books of Moses;
Gamache, Master Book of Candle Burning;
Haskins, Voodoo and Hoodoo;
Herman, Black Hermann;
Hohman, Pow Wows;
Hurston, Mules and Men;
Hyatt, Folk-Lore from Adams County Illinois;
Hyatt, Hoodoo - Conjuration - Witchcraft - Rootwork;
Puckett, Folk Beliefs of the Southern Negro;
Randolph, Eulis!;
Selig, Secrets of the Psalms;
Yronwode, Hoodoo herb and Root Magic;
plus
DeLaurence stuff to explain Hyatt's faulty "DeLong" refs, etc.
----end web page extract----
(That cryptic last entry about "DeLaurence stuff to explain
Hyatt's faulty 'DeLong' refs" is explained more fully on the page
i wrote about Harry Hyatt at
http://www.luckymojo.com/hyatt.html )
> the likely source for anything you have to say about this lore
> is from Hyatt.
With respect to the use of graveyard dirt in love spells, Hyatt
gives just that one spell, entry #659 in "Hoodoo - Conjuration -
Witchcraft - Rootwork." The other sources for graveyard dirt
love spells mentioned at my site are the "Love Me Or Die" spell i
was taught by a woman who related it to me at a Chicago candle
shop in 1965 and a quote from an Australian reader of a book
written by "Baron Blanc." Therefore only one of the three
references is to Hyatt. I do not mention this to diminish the
major impact Hyatt has had, merely to set straight the record
concerning sources for graveyard dirt love spells at my web site
and elsewhere.
> Quite a bit of the stuff from Hyatt's later work came from his
> "Folklore From Adams County Illinois", published in 1935.
This is utterly wrong. With the exception of a couple of short
folk tales (not magical spell-craft per se), none of "the stuff
from Hyatt's later work came from his 'Folklore From Adams County
Illinois', published in 1935."
"Folklore From Adams County Illinois" (1935) consists of Hyatt's
brief synopses (in his own words) of rhymes, tales, spell-craft,
weather omens, death omens, riddles, and other folkloric material
he collected among people of British, Irish, German, and African
descent in a small county in Illinois in the upper Midwest. Hyatt
also published a revised 2nd edition of "Folklore From Adams
County Illinois" (1965) which contained an added autobiographical
account of his marriage to Alma Egan Hyatt.
"Hoodoo - Conjuration - Witchcraft - Rootwork" consists of
verbatim transcripts of interviews and excerpts from interviews
about spell-craft that Hyatt conducted with African American
people in the South-East and Gulf states.
Hyatt did not use material (and certainly not "quite a bit of the
stuff") from "Folklore From Adams County Illinois" (1935) to
create any "later work" -- which consists of "Descendants of John
Walton of Baltimore Co. Maryland and Harrison Co. Kentucky"
(1950) and "Hoodoo - Conjuration - Witchcraft - Rootwork"
(1970-178) or.
Finally, as i mentioned on my web page about Hyatt's books at
http://www.luckymojo.com/hyatt.html
i am quite open in acknowledging ...
-----web page excerpt-----
MY DEBT TO HARRY M. HYATT
Like almost everyone who has followed in Hyatt's shoes, i owe him
a debt for his dedication and perseverance in collecting so much
magical lore and making it available to all. Although i began my
own research into hoodoo in the early 1960s, before the reprint
of FACI or the first volumes of HCWR were published, i found
Hyatt's work invaluable from the time i first read it. I have
made some use of his material to bolster my own presentations,
and, for those who are interested, here is a list of Hoodoo in
Theory and Practice web pages that contain quoted passages from
Harry Hyatt's research:
[links]
Aunt Caroline Dye of Newport, Arkansas
Bluestone and Mexican Blue Anil Balls
Body Fluids: Menstrual Blood, Urine, Semen
Crossroads Rituals
Devil's Shoestring
Foot Track Magic
Goofer Dust
Hoodoo History and Definition of Terms
Hoyt's Cologne
Hyatt's African-American informants
Madam Myrtle Collins of Memphis, Tennessee
Nation Sack
Protection Spells
Salt
Secrets of the Psalms
Silver Dimes
-----end web page exceprt-----
One of the ways i am paying off this debt, by the way, is by
attempting to reconstruct and place online as much of the
biographical information that Hyatt lost when his "Numbers Books"
were misplaced as can be assembled from delving into the internal
evidence that survives in the published pages of "Hoodoo -
Conjuration - Witchcraft - Rootwork." For further details on what
the "Numbers Books" reconstruction project is about, see my web
page on Hyatt's informants at
http://www.luckymojo.com/hyattinformants.html
Cordially,
cat yronwode
This post (c) 2004 catherine yronwode. all rights reserved.
Meltdarok
"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:4079E3F5...@luckymojo.com...
> Tom wrote:
> >
> > "catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote
> > >
> > > Tom wrote
> >
> > > > Anything Cat can tell you about it is
> > > > likely to be from this set of books or
> > > > from someone strongly influenced by
> > > > them.
> > >
> > > False. (1) See the books and magazine articles listed above that
> > > predate (and hence are not "influenced by") Hyatt's collection,
> > > which was first published in 1970-1978. Tom has the cart before
> > > the horse -- by more than one hundred years, in the cases of
> > > Thaddeus Norris and the anonymous author of "The Religious Life
> > > of the Negro Slave."
> >
> > In your article on graveyard dust
> > ( http://www.luckymojo.com/graveyarddirt.html ), the only academic
> > source you cite for your information is Harry M. Hyatt.
>
> All of the sources i listed in my previous post and many more,
> are cited in full in the bibliography of my book "Hoodoo Herb and
> Root Magic."
So you messed around all day? Happy Easter.
Luke 24:41(KJV)
And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,
Have ye here any meat*?
*brosimos bro'-sim-os
from 1035; eatable:--meat.
Strong's Greek dictionary.
John 21:5(KJV)
Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat*? They answered him,
No.
*prosphagion pros-fag'-ee-on
neuter of a presumed derivative of a compound of 4314 and 5315; something
eaten in addition to bread, i.e. a relish (specially, fish; compare
3795):--meat.
Strong's Greek dictionary.
> Cordially,
>
> cat yronwode
>
> This post (c) 2004 catherine yronwode. all rights reserved.
--
meltdarok
http://hometown.aol.com/meltdarok/
catherine yronwode
>
> "catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote:
> > [stuff]
> So you messed around all day? Happy Easter.
Siva and i went to the crossroads for a little sunrise service of
our own (part of a nine-week crossroads ritual) and i did chores
and harvested rose buds and petals to dry, and our friend Don
made us a wonderful dinner of barbequed ribs, baked potatoes, and
fresh asparagus, but other than i've written only the third page
out of a four-page lesson for my students and, yeah, pretty much
messed around all day so far. The sun is just going down. Siva
has poured me some Constant Comment tea. Maybe the caffeine will
propel me into writing faster.
Happy Easter to you too. I hope you had a good time today as
well.
Cordially,
cat yronwode
Tom
> Tom wrote:
> >
> > In your article on graveyard dust
> > ( http://www.luckymojo.com/graveyarddirt.html ), the only academic
> > source you cite for your information is Harry M. Hyatt.
>
> All of the sources i listed in my previous post and many more,
> are cited in full in the bibliography of my book "Hoodoo Herb and
> Root Magic."
How many specific graveyard dust spells do you describe that are not taken
directly from, or are clearly not variants of Hyatt's work? List them.
I don;t give a rat's ass how many works you cite in a general exposition of
hoodoo. That's irrelevant. I was speaking specifically about your spells
involving graveyard dust and here you are trying to confuse the issue, as
usual.
> The table of contents page for "Hoodoo in Theory and Practice"
> (of which the graveyard spells page is but one small part)
It doesn't matter at all what your table of contents says, either.
> > the likely source for anything you have to say about this lore
> > is from Hyatt.
>
> With respect to the use of graveyard dirt in love spells, Hyatt
> gives just that one spell, entry #659 in "Hoodoo - Conjuration -
> Witchcraft - Rootwork." The other sources for graveyard dirt
> love spells mentioned at my site are the "Love Me Or Die" spell i
> was taught by a woman who related it to me at a Chicago candle
> shop in 1965
Yes, that one is particularly heart-warming. Such fine folks practice
hoodoo. Crooks, cheats, bullies, psychopaths, and liars would seem to be
your usual clientele, to judge from the kinds of spells you recommend.
However, they're not very intelligent ones, if they have to rely on your
"curios".
> and a quote from an Australian reader of a book
> written by "Baron Blanc."
Which you sneer at.
> Therefore only one of the three references is to Hyatt.
Let's see, an anonymous person, an e-mail sender you clearly don't respect,
and Hyatt. That makes exactly one reference with any scholarly merit at
all. The other two are trash.
> I do not mention this to diminish the
> major impact Hyatt has had,
Yes you do. However, the only reason you're doing it is because I pointed
it out. Can't have that, now, can we?
~Jim
Unfortunately I cannot find it in amazon.com and are hoping that someone who
own the book willing to kindly look up for the info I'm looking for. (uses
and applications of graveyard dirt for love binding)
Thanks again in advance.
Jim
"Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:xxdec.5568$A_4....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
~Jim
"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:4079CE55...@luckymojo.com...
Tom
"Meltdarok" <melt...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:l0nec.17586$i74.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> So you messed around all day? Happy Easter.
Cat never misses an opportunity to engage in vain pretense, even if it takes
her all day.
That's how she makes her living.
Tom
> Siva and i went to the crossroads for a little sunrise service of
> our own (part of a nine-week crossroads ritual) and i did chores
> and harvested rose buds and petals to dry, and our friend Don
> made us a wonderful dinner of barbequed ribs, baked potatoes, and
> fresh asparagus,
A result of the "Feed Me or Die" spell, no doubt.
~Jim
Here, the interest for reading is SO LOW that I have to import books if I
want them.
"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:4079ACD5...@luckymojo.com...
catherine yronwode
> How many specific graveyard dust spells do you describe that are not taken
> directly from, or are clearly not variants of Hyatt's work?
"Variants of Hyatt's work" makes no sense in the context of this
question. Hyatt collected many graveyard dirt spells, and so did
Puckett, Haskins, Hurston, and even i. All of these spells fall
into a limited set of recognizable "families" (graveyard dirt for
protection, graveyard dirt for coercive love spells, graveyard
dirt to move people away, graveyard dirt to sicken someone, etc.)
because they derive from a very widespread folk tradition that
any folklorist of folk magician can tap into simply by asking
people about it.
To call Puckett's 1926 collection of hoodoo spells "variants of
Hyatt's work" is ludicrous. It is even more ludicrous to refer to
Chesnutt's 1899 text, "The Goophered Grapevine" -- which relates
a graveyard dirt spell -- as a "variant of Hyatt's work."
Likewise, if i collect a spell from someone, it is not a "variant
of Hyatt's work," it is just another example of how popular these
old African graveyard dirt spells still are in the African
American magical community.
> List them.
Attempting to list the graveyard spells i have collected which
Hyatt did not collect is, alas, an impossible task at this time,
for Hyatt published five thousand pages of spells -- with NO
INDEX.
Trying to determine what Hyatt did NOT include would necessitate
creating an index, but to this date, no one has yet produced one
and UCLA, which claims to control the copyrights to "Hoodoo -
Conjuration - Witchcraft - Rootwork," has specifically forbidden
anyone publishing such an index if they were to create it.
I *can* tell you that although i have read Hyatt's five volumes
through many times, i have not found the "Love Me or Die"
jack-ball spell or the "Graveyard Dirt to Lead Someone to Death"
spell (the latter given in my book "Hoodoo Herb and Root Magic"
on page 109) in his collection yet. But i won't be able to state
with certainty that that they are not there in some form or other
until his books are finally indexed.
> Such fine folks practice hoodoo. Crooks,
> cheats, bullies, psychopaths, and liars
Sarcasm and name-calling are an invitation to abandon rational
discourse that holds no appeal to me. Your list of practitioners
left out those who are housewives, factory workers, ministers,
laborers, artists, farmers, teens, executives, florists, cooks,
school teachers, truck drivers, athletes, retirees, lawyers, and
social workers -- basically the same cross-section of people who
practice any other system of magic you might care to name. Hoodoo
is not confined to the criminal segment of the culture in which
it was developed, nor do all hoodoo practitioners engage in
coercive spells such as the one we have been discussing. The
system of magic is larger than your efforts to belittle it, but
that you repeatedly make such attempts tells us a lot about you.
cat yronwode
news:alt.lucky.w -- discussions on folk magic, luck, amulets, charms
Meltdarok
>
> "Meltdarok" <melt...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:l0nec.17586$i74.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> >
> > So you messed around all day? Happy Easter.
>
> Cat never misses an opportunity to engage in vain pretense, even if it
takes
> her all day.
>
I see nothing wrong with being a real person.
> That's how she makes her living.
>
It seems to me that none of us are mind-numbingly wealthy.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
>
--
meltdarok
http://hometown.aol.com/meltdarok/
Tom
> Tom wrote:
>
> > How many specific graveyard dust spells do you describe that are not
taken
> > directly from, or are clearly not variants of Hyatt's work?
>
> "Variants of Hyatt's work" makes no sense in the context of this
> question. Hyatt collected many graveyard dirt spells, and so did
> Puckett, Haskins, Hurston, and even i.
The only academic source you name in your article on graveyard dust is
Hyatt.
> To call Puckett's 1926 collection of hoodoo spells "variants of
> Hyatt's work" is ludicrous.
I made no claim. You're serving up reds herrings again, liar.
> Attempting to list the graveyard spells i have collected which
> Hyatt did not collect is, alas, an impossible task at this time,
Yeah. Right.
> I *can* tell you that although i have read Hyatt's five volumes
> through many times, i have not found the "Love Me or Die"
> jack-ball spell or the "Graveyard Dirt to Lead Someone to Death"
> spell (the latter given in my book "Hoodoo Herb and Root Magic"
> on page 109) in his collection yet.
It's probable that he wasn't the morally bereft jackass you are.
> > Such fine folks practice hoodoo. Crooks,
> > cheats, bullies, psychopaths, and liars
>
> Sarcasm and name-calling are an invitation to abandon rational
> discourse that holds no appeal to me.
Yes, by all means, let's have a rational discussion of "Love Me of Die"
spell. I'll go first. Have you any evidence at all that the result of
performing this spell will be that the victim will be forced to have sex
with you or die? Or is it only a "curio" for which you claim no
supernatural powers? Is it a loving thing to threaten a person with death
if they don't have sex with you? Isn't that rape? Come, let's be rational.
> Your list of practitioners
> left out those who are housewives, factory workers, ministers,
> laborers, artists, farmers, teens, executives, florists, cooks,
> school teachers, truck drivers, athletes, retirees, lawyers, and
> social workers --
There are repulsive and amoral people in many professions. You're trying to
claim that "housewives, factory workers, ministers, laborers, artists,
farmers, teens, executives, florists, cooks, school teachers, truck drivers,
athletes, retirees, lawyers, and social workers" cannot be crooks, cheats,
bullies, psychopaths, and liars, which is absurd. Is that what you consider
"rational discourse"? If so, you're no good at it.
> Hoodoo
> is not confined to the criminal segment of the culture in which
> it was developed, nor do all hoodoo practitioners engage in
> coercive spells such as the one we have been discussing.
But you do. And it's your customers in particular that we're discussing,
despite your attempt to snip that little bit of information from our
"rational discourse". Let's quote my statement in full once more, so that I
can rub your nose in it.
"Crooks, cheats, bullies, psychopaths, and liars would seem to be
your usual clientele, to judge from the kinds of spells you recommend."
Despite your attempt at misrepresentation by cutting out the clear reference
to yourself and the trash you offer, I have not called all hoodoo
practitioners these names. I am commenting on the lack of regard for human
rights and common decency that *you* display and which *your* customers are
supporting by buying your products. I have no doubt that there are good
and decent people who pratice hoodoo. You're not one of them, though.
> The system of magic is larger than your efforts to belittle it, but
> that you repeatedly make such attempts tells us a lot about you.
You can't hide your lack of social responsibility behind a "system of magic"
any more than a Catholic priest can hide his boy-rape behind Mother Church.
Tom
> "Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:YPoec.6454$A_4....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > even if it takes her all day.
>
> I see nothing wrong with being a real person.
Is "vain pretense" a necessary condition of being a "real person"?
> > That's how she makes her living.
>
> It seems to me that none of us are mind-numbingly wealthy.
> Correct me if I'm wrong.
One needn't be wealthy to be contemptible.
catherine yronwode
>
> Have you any evidence at all that the result of
I cannot provide "evidence" that a coercive magic spell i
personally have never used can produce desired results. If
you are trying to drive this conversation toward the Randy
Challenge, i suggest you seek another partner in debate.
> Or is it only a "curio" for which you claim no
> supernatural powers?
Asking whether a Jack rite is a "curio" is about as
meaningful is asking if the Abramelin operation is a curio.
The Jack rite is generally called "working the Jack ball" or
"operating the Jack" -- and during it, one swings the Jack
back and forth or around and around while enchanting the
object of one's desires.
There is no curio per se, unless the Jack itself is
considered a curio, but it is, more properly speaking, a
tool constructed for use and then used in working a ritual.
The making of the "Love Me Or Die" Jack Ball is a small
ceremony during which one winds a full spool of red thread
around a hard, woody John the Conquer root, in which are
embedded objects symbolic of oneself and the object of one's
desire. Once the root is thus prepared, it is used in a
ritual of spiritual coercion.
What we have been discussing is the rite or spell itself,
not a curio. Perhaps if i explain that there are different
types of Jack spells you will understand the distinction.
For example, another Jack spell, used in a rite of
divination to determine whether an absent person is safe and
healthy, is described in the 19th century Mary Alicia Owens
book i cited earlier -- and the Owens account of this Jack
Ball is also quoted in Charles Leland's "Etruscan Magic"
compilation of the 1890s, because he (Leland) was the
subject upon whom Owens worked the Jack Ball which she had
hired a conjure doctor to make.
A third Jack spell is loosely described in song form at my
"Blues Lyrics and Hoodoo" web site -- the URL is
http://www.luckymojo.com/bluesmojolenoir.html
and the relevant verse, by J. B. Lenoir, is:
I got one Jack, sure is crazy
My aunt forgot to teach me, just how to operate it
I went to a night club, I was squeezing it tight
I believe that's the cause of them people's start to
fight
The cultural in-joke here (the song is a funny one) is that
by operating the Jack improperly -- squeezing it rather than
swinging it -- the singer caused people to fight rather than
to have a good time.
> Is it a loving thing to threaten a person with death
> if they don't have sex with you? Isn't that rape?
> Come, let's be rational.
I personally do not use or advocate coercive spells in love
matters. They seem unloving to me. I make that clear on the
web page in question. However, in writing a book about a
system of traditional magic, i have chosen not to elide
coercive or harmful spells.
> > Hoodoo is not
> > confined to the criminal segment of the culture in which
> > it was developed, nor do all hoodoo practitioners engage in
> > coercive spells such as the one we have been discussing.
>
> But you do.
No, actually i do not engage in coercive spells such as the
one we have been discussing. You've jumped the gun here,
making an assumption that can easily be checked against what
i have written and published on the subject.
> And it's your customers
> in particular that we're discussing,
You are stating that people who buy spiritual supplies from
me are de facto "crooks, cheats, bullies, psychopaths, and
liars". Where's your "evidence" of this, Tom?
And by the way, your impugning my customers' reputations is
not the same as our "discussing" my clients. Name-calling is
not discussion; it is just a form of careless verbal
aggression.
> Let's quote my statement in full once more,
> so that I can rub your nose in it.
>
> "Crooks, cheats, bullies, psychopaths,
> and liars would seem to be your usual
> clientele, to judge from the kinds
> of spells you recommend."
I did not recommend the spell. My only published comments
about it, beyond describing it, are as follows:
"I have never tried such coercive love
spells myself. I am too tender-hearted
and also have had too many offers of
love from willing men to bother to mess
with men who were recalcitrant."
(
http://www.luckymojo.com/lovespells.html#lovemeordiejackball )
-- also in "Hoodoo Herb and Root Magic" on page 106.