Hoodoo on Program "Oklahoma Gardening"...
LuckyH.
I was watching a PBS program called "Oklahoma Gardening" and the topic
was Garden Art/Sculptures. There is current trend for what are called
"Bottle Trees", poles with pegs in which colored glass bottles are
placed. The Host then went on to explain how they evolved from the
practices of certain African-Americans in Oklahoma and the South who
hung Blue Glass Bottles in trees to protect their home and property
from evil spirits. Of course what he was refering to are the classical
"witch bottles" and the related "Witch Balls", and other charms which
rely on the color blue to ward off the evil eye and negativity.
-Jason
Joseph Littleshoes
I wonder if there is any connection to a fad that swept through the
black neighbourhoods of Oakland Cal. some years ago.
Plastic gallon milk jugs full of water placed on lawns.
Small lawns would have only one, larger lawns more, and only front
lawns, i never saw this on back lawns.
---
JL
quim...@inquiceweb.com
been blue. Bottle trees do not derive from "Witchballs", although their
function is similar and it may be argued either way from where the
preference for blue in this regard comes. While it is impossible to say
there was no European influence to the tradition, there's no way to
prove, beyond speculation that there was. Cat weighs in in favor of a
European origin for the use of blue and glass in African practice. I am
far less certain that this is so. The existance of native faience in
ancient Africa (well distant from egypt and ample natural dye materials
leaves cause for caution.
At the very least, they represent two distinct cultural demonstrations
of the same intent. However, Bottle Trees catagorically are not derived
from "Witch Balls", and there is much to the Bottle tree origin and
symbolism that "Witch Balls" do not demonstrate. Bottle Trees are
firmly an African American phenomenon. If one is not familiar with
Bottle Trees it would be easy to make this error of conclusion.
Eoghan
jmha...@rcn.com
house was haunted as they had seen blue lights in the windows you will
have the European referant you seek.
missalice
http://www.olemiss.edu/depts/english/ms-writers/dir/welty_eudora/bottle_trees.html
missalice
http://arusticgarden.com/halwitbal.html
Witch Balls look like a good way to get rid of the over stocked
Christmas ornaments!
LuckyH.
quim...@inquiceweb.com wrote:
> No Jason, the preferred color for bottles on bottle trees have always
> been blue.
I never stated it wasn't.
> Bottle trees do not derive from "Witchballs", although their
> function is similar and it may be argued either way from where the
> preference for blue in this regard comes.
I should have clarified that tree bottles, witchballs, and the like are
used in the same "spirit", not that they are exactly the same or have
the same origin.
> While it is impossible to say
> there was no European influence to the tradition, there's no way to
> prove, beyond speculation that there was. Cat weighs in in favor of a
> European origin for the use of blue and glass in African practice. I am
> far less certain that this is so. The existance of native faience in
> ancient Africa (well distant from egypt and ample natural dye materials
> leaves cause for caution.
Although the Kongo peoples did have contact with the Eygptians, via
being captured and forced into slavery, there were truly no important
Egyptian elements that can be seen in the practice, especialy any that
don't date prior to "Eygptio-mania" of the 19th and early 20th century.
I should provide some clarification here as well. There are many
elements that are found throughout African Cultures. Some of the
things that a Egyptologist might at first think are proof of an
Egyptian influence can later be determined to be widespread among
African Cultures in General. Take for example "The Ba", the soul in
bird form is relatively widespread in Africa. What I think is
fascinating is that "blue" for protection did in fact originate in the
middle east. So how this belief managed to spread to the US is
interesting. Regardless of how this belief arrived, we do know that it
was here durring colonial life, where the practice of hanging
"WitchBalls" was popular. (I discovered in previous research that the
traditional colors of witchballs were shades ranging from blue to green
and inbetween.)
>
> At the very least, they represent two distinct cultural demonstrations
> of the same intent. However, Bottle Trees catagorically are not derived
> from "Witch Balls", and there is much to the Bottle tree origin and
> symbolism that "Witch Balls" do not demonstrate.
(I already adressed this above so I will not repeat it here for space.)
>Bottle Trees are
> firmly an African American phenomenon. If one is not familiar with
> Bottle Trees it would be easy to make this error of conclusion.
>
> Eoghan
Eoghan,
I think there is some confusion here, the modern art/sculpture called
"Bottle-Trees" were inspired from the "Hoodoo" practice of hanging
bottles in trees for protection, either of the tree itself, assuming
it's a fruit tree, or the home and property. Now it may very well have
been an African-American Artist who designed the first "Bottle-Tree"
Sculpture but the art-form is far divorced from the original meaning
and magical practice. Interestingly enough, you mentioned that blue
bottles were always used in the practice. I have seen countless
examples of both clear bottles and the classic brown "beer" bottles
used. The thing that seems to differintiate is that blue bottles are
often hung out empty, as they are, while clear, brow, and other colors
are most likely to contain objects and materials like, nails, powders,
urine, etc... Also is interesting that many of these bottles are said
to be hung for protection but just how they are supposed to protect
seems to be mysterious. I was once told by an old woman that the
bottles won't stop you from picking someone's fruit, stealing, or
vandalizing their property. Isntead, the bottles will make sure it's
the last time you are able to do such! -6ft under! So to sum of some
of the research I have done on my own time:
1.) An EMPTY blue bottle hung in a tree works along the lines of
"Witchballs", to trap evil spirits and negativity. The reasons for
this practice is often over-simplified into "For Protection" when
communicated to non-practioners.
2.) Empty Clear, Brown, or Green bottles are never hung in trees,
instead these bottles are first filled with various magical items and
then hung with the belief that they will create an "automatic revenge"
against anyone who harms the family or property. Just as in the blue
bottles above, the reasons for the use of these bottles are often
over-simplified and is often communicated as "For Protection", when in
reality "automatic revenge" sums it up quite sufficiently.
3.) Clear, Brown, or Green bottles may also be employed in trees to
curse an individual or property. The difference is that most of the
bottles are kept hidden out of clear site. These bottles may be
burried at the foot of a tree, stuffed into a hollow, etc...but never
placed out in the open.
-Jason
LuckyH.
shocked because I have not seen bottles placed for protection hung this
way. (The "Bottle Tree" appearing on the TV program did not include
real trees and very much looked like some artsy-christmas tree
interpretation). Also note that there are many "types" of bottles hung
in trees, some containing objects, others do not.
-Jason
catherine yronwode
>
> No Jason, the preferred color for bottles on bottle trees have always
> been blue. Bottle trees do not derive from "Witchballs", although their
> function is similar and it may be argued either way from where the
> preference for blue in this regard comes. While it is impossible to say
> there was no European influence to the tradition, there's no way to
> prove, beyond speculation that there was. Cat weighs in in favor of a
> European origin for the use of blue and glass in African practice. I am
> far less certain that this is so. The existance of native faience in
> ancient Africa (well distant from egypt and ample natural dye materials
> leaves cause for caution.
Nope. I do NOT and never have stated that i think there was a "European
origin for the use of blue and glass in African practice." The very idea
shocks me -- i can;t even imagine what i said that got you thinking
that!
To set the record straight, i think and state that the origin for the
use of blue and glass to protect against the evil eye (and hence witches
and other culturally-defined forms of "evil") is Middle Eastern and VERY
ancient -- and that this practice has been during historical times
propagated by and among (in roughly chronological order) people who are
now identified religiously, culturally, linguistically, and nationally
by group-names such as Sumerian, Akkadian, Kemetic, Egyptian, Semitic,
Mesopotamian, Jewish, Canannite, Philistine, Persian, Dari, Farsi,
Greek, Cretan, Byzantine, Turkish, Hindu, Sicilian, Christian, Moorish,
Arabic, Kurdish, and Muslim, in a broad band of territory encompassing
the Middle East, North Africa, Southern Europe (through Jewish and
Moorish influence), Eurasia, and India. The current epicenter of the use
of blue glass, blue faience, blue ceramics, and blue stones such as
lapis FOR THIS PURPOSE (in contradistinction of "for pretty") is at the
present time Israel, Palestine, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Greece, Turkey,
Crete, Iran, Iraq.
> At the very least, they represent two distinct cultural demonstrations
> of the same intent. However, Bottle Trees catagorically are not derived
> from "Witch Balls", and there is much to the Bottle tree origin and
> symbolism that "Witch Balls" do not demonstrate. Bottle Trees are
> firmly an African American phenomenon. If one is not familiar with
> Bottle Trees it would be easy to make this error of conclusion.
Here we agree; i see Witch Balls as developing independently in England
from influences that were carried there by Jews, Moors, Crusaders, and
others who had contact with the Middle East during the Renaissance era
when glass became cheap. (Prior to that, English witch bottles, such as
those found buried under doorsteps, are brown clay, not glass.) I see
the African American Bottle Trees as a development developed in North
America by Africans who either retained the blue glass / blue faience
usage from very early times (e.g. Egypt) or who had absorbed the idea
through contact with Moorish / Muslim North Africans.
cat yronwode
missalice
Here's another site for anyone who's interested.
http://homepage.mac.com/dbn58/PhotoAlbum8.html
LuckyH.
>Christmas ornaments!
Ughh! Those are some very poor examples of "WitchBalls". At least they
have the tiny tubes of glass in the center, as many items sold as
"witchballs" today, do not contain these. We know from historical
accounts that the tubes were indeed present in the earliest examples.
By the way Miss Alice, did you know that "Witch Balls" are believed to
have evolved into the "gazing balls", the popular garden accessory?
Some sholars believe that "witch" is actualy a corruption of "watch",
hence "watch balls"/Gazing balls. Also not that evil spirits were said
to be trapped by both the maze of tine tubes in the center of the orb
as well as by being entranced by the sheer beauty and reflective
surface.
-Jason
LuckyH.
trees are identical to trees I've seen in Oklahoma. (That's why I was
shocked that you had a link of pics of bottles hung upside down and
placed over the end of a limb.) The only difference that I've noticed
is that the cord is extremely small and the bottles do not dangle. I'm
sure this is due to our much beloved/hated Oklahoma wind.
-Jason
missalice
witch balls to gazing balls. These witch balls are quite new to me so
thanks everyone for the info. I've always known about using blue as a
protective color. It's been a habit of mine to make sure the front door
and window frames of my store have a fresh coat of blue paint on them.
I recommend everyone try it, works for me!
LuckyH.
BTW, if anyone is interested in creating their own version of a "Bottle
Tree". A good source of "Blue Bottles" can be found in the
international wine section of a well stocked liquor store.
-Jason
LuckyH.
>Tree". A good source of "Blue Bottles" can be found in the
>international wine section of a well stocked liquor store.
Should have added that there is a realy cool German wine called "Black
Cat" that comes in blue bottles and often includes a black cat charm
tied around the neck. It's relatively inexpensive. Check it out.
-Jason
Joseph Littleshoes
There is also a bottled water in blue, Ty Nant, im a tear drop shaped
bottle and a lovely deep cobalt blue.
Occasionally one sees a sphere made of them with a light inside.
---
JL
quim...@inquiceweb.com
a chat about this. Oh well, my apologies for the misattribution. Jason,
I'd like to know where your evidence for the Kongo, the founding of
whose society as a nation dates to somewhere between 1000 and 1300AD
(by the least conservative estimates) had contact with the ancient
Egyptians. The first wave of Bantu migration out of the contemporary
countries of Cameroon, Congo and Central African Republic is thought to
have been around 200-400 BC. The Kongo themselves, as a specific
culture cannot be spoken of as having existed earlier than about 1000
AD, and that is optomistically early for them. Even if the Egyptians
had contact with Bantu cultures, and there is no evidence that they
did, then it most certainly would not have been the Kongo peoples.
Eoghan
LuckyH.
>I'd like to know where your evidence for the Kongo, the founding of
>whose society as a nation dates to somewhere between 1000 and 1300AD
>(by the least conservative estimates) had contact with the ancient
>Egyptians.
Eoghan,
You do realize that you are contradicting your own theory that "Blue
for Protection" became incorporated into Hoodoo via the Egyptians,
right? Egyptian Slave Raids did reach into Central Africa. Technicaly
you are correct that these peoples were not officialy "Kongo" and yes,
at the same time proving your former theory incorrect. Personaly, I
would like to see you "loosen up" a bit when it comes to your obsession
with too much detail. For example, if I would have just put Kongo in
parenthesis, "Kongo", then your reply would be groundless. (Since I
didn't do just that, then here is an area where I can also improve.)
-Jason
Joseph Littleshoes
In hard bound editions the book "The Serpent Power" by Arthur Avalon
(Sir John Wooruff) there are colour plates denoting certain centres of
the body, the "Chakras". And the colour associated with the so called
3rd eye or brow chakra is that blue colour. Though often in Hindu
documents more pastel than in the middle eastern, Mediterranean usage
where it is more often a vivid rather than a pastel blue.
Blue comes in many colours the variation of blue here i refer to as
cobalt blue and comes in various shades from light to dark. In practise
i have only seen the more pastel versions used, though i am aware of a
whole Mediterranean or perhaps adriatic small hill town painted the deep
cobalt blue.
Anecdotally: a blue glass disc is known by me to have been used by a
euro - witch at the beginning of her ritual activities and a former yoga
teacher would occasionally manifest this blue disk on his hand as he taught.
---
JL
quim...@inquiceweb.com
And I would in turn like you to get a little more accurate. No, I did
not tie the existance of feiance in Africa to the Egyptians, nor have I
ever attributed anything in Hoodoo to the Egyptians, apart from
possibly through the medium of nineteenth century English language
antiquarians. So I am not contradicting myself. And those contacts, if
they were at all with Bantu people, (the bantu were not the only
Africans outside of Egypt you know), would still not be grounds for
calling them Kongo, even if you used parenthesis. It's just plain
inaccurate. If you're going to theorize, be sure to do some scholarship
before hand. At least get your time periods and the cultures within
them correct.
Eoghan
LuckyH.
>Eoghan
O.K. here's your previous quote:
>The existance of native faience in
>ancient Africa (well distant from egypt and ample natural dye materials
>leaves cause for caution.
I interpreted your words as such:
"The use of Faience in Africa spread as a result of contact via the
Egyptians and therefore one could not rule out Egypt as an origin of
the practice of using blue glass in Hoodoo."
(Note that although I did add information, it is a plausible
interpretation of your words, none-the-less.)
Here's where I responded:
>>Although the Kongo peoples did have contact with the Eygptians, via
>>being captured and forced into slavery, there were truly no important
>>Egyptian elements that can be seen in the practice, especialy any that
>>don't date prior to "Eygptio-mania" of the 19th and early 20th century.
I wrote the above aknowledging there was a very tiny chance that this
practice could have made it's way into Hoodoo via the Egyptians, but
that I myself did not believe this to be true.
Now we come to your responce wich clarifies your position:
>And I would in turn like you to get a little more accurate. No, I did
>not tie the existance of feiance in Africa to the Egyptians, nor have I
>ever attributed anything in Hoodoo to the Egyptians, apart from
>possibly through the medium of nineteenth century English language
>antiquarians.
O.K., so now you have clarified your previous statements which led to
my original interpretation and subsequent responce. Case Closed.
On the other hand, I do have issue with this sentence:
>The existance of native faience in
>ancient Africa (well distant from egypt and ample natural dye materials
>leaves cause for caution.
I have never come across any information that the creation of "Faience"
occured prior to the Egyptian Practice. Notice that I am not saying
you are wrong, merely that I have never read or come across any such
thing. I have read about the development of Faience, from many
sources, and most scholars are of the opinion that the Faience
developed as a "Poor Man's Lapis-Lazuli or Turquoise", and only later
reached wide popularity among all Egyptian Social Classes. If indeed
any other African culture independately developed their own "blue"
glaze then it still would technicaly not be labeled as "Faience", due
to the fact that we do know the Egyptians had an official "recipe"
which was held secret under the penalty of death. In fact, scholars
today are still unsure of the offical recipe used, though many of the
componets have been identified, such as:silicon, powdered lapis &
turquoise, copper sulfate and various other metal salts.
Other than the above, I only have one other issue with your writtings:
>(the bantu were not the only
>Africans outside of Egypt you know)
I, and many others, know very well that you are college educated and
are an expert in your given field. However, please do not insult my
inteligence with statements that imply ignorance on my part, or on
anyone else whom you may be communicating with. Having a degree, PHD,
or any other title does not prevent you from making mistakes. Degrees
and Titles are also not required to engage in an intelligent exchange.
Best,
-Jason
quim...@inquiceweb.com
some unsolicited advice on my manner of writing and thought. I am
detailed oriented in my writing and observations because I have to and
want to be. I responded that I in turn would like you to be more
accurate. You need to be.
Your response now is a proof in point of what I mean. You jumped to the
conclusion that I claimed an Egyptian presence in West Africa. That was
based upon your unresearched assumption that faience by default is
Egyptian. It is not, nor does it imply a direct connection with Egypt.
Many people developed the same technology, although Egypt happens to
have been the most famous producer of that material. Nowhere did I say
or imply that Egypt had any sort of West or Central African connection.
Anyone who knows me personally knows that while I may present my views
energetically,and defend them vociferously, I am far from being an
elitist or a snob. Nor do I consider myself infallible. However, I
usually measure my words carefully and make sure I know what I am
talking about before I leap to conclusions based upon unconfirmed
assumptions.
So, no, I was not being snooty when I said I wish you'd be more
accurate. I wish you would. You have a great deal of natural curiosity
and you combine it with an admirable enthusiasm. It is a shame you
haven't gotten around to the depth of reading on a host of subjects
that would serve you, or anyone for that matter, well. You probably
read a fair bit, but I suspect you could be a bit more selective in the
materials you choose to read. But if you wish to debate with me (and I
admit to a deep seated enjoyment of debate) then do not insert
assumptions between my words. It will trip you up. If I had meant to
suggest that Egypt was in contact with west Subsaharan Africa, I would
have said so in so many words. The presence of faience only suggests
Egypt to those who do not know about the history of African material
culture.
That doesn't make me better, or even more intelligent than you, just
more careful in my choice of words, and possibly a bit more widely read
than you. I strongly encourage you to close the gap. Do you think that
if I wasn't interested in your comments, I would engage in discussion
with you? Lastly, I will be more than happy to cede a point to anyone
when it is justified. My wife and son remind me constantly that I am
not infallible.
Best,
Eoghan
catherine yronwode
Zeller Schwarze Katz! My grandfather was the Mosel trademark and
copyright lawyer! We had CASES of that wine! I loved those little black
cat charms when i was a kid!
See some great Zeller Schwarze Katz labels at
http://www.winegirl.ch/Subjects/Zeller.html
cat yronwode
quim...@inquiceweb.com
will discuss academic matters when someone engages me on the subject, I
do not go around trumpeting any presumed superiority. I am proud of my
achievements, as anyone should be of theirs. I am not however a boaster
or a braggart. Frankly, I object to the insinuation that I have done
so. I am who and what I am as you are who and what you are. The fact
that I am here sharing views should say something. If I wanted to
collect points for my academic training, I would be doing it among
academics, which is of course part of why I present papers at
conferences and lecture, etc.
It seems to me that it is of greater importance to you than it is to
me.
Eoghan
Miko Roktska (Mike Rock)
>The existance of native faience in
>ancient Africa (well distant from egypt and ample natural dye materials
>leaves cause for caution.
How does anybody get the conclusion from this that it implies that
Subsahara got faience from Egypt? It is stating very clearly that there
is good reason to doubt that ancient faience in areas of Africa distant
from Egypt was present due to Egyptian incfluence.
This is the exact kind of muzzyheadedness I was trying to penetrate
when we were discussing the role and importance of initiation in Voodoo
elsewhere. But there is no rational discussion with an "expert" such as
yourself. You make of other's statements what you want to make instead
of sticking to the word as given. It must be hot in your lap with all
that spilled tea.
Sometimes Jason I wonder if you aren't Wiccan Wade in disguise, or a
close relative. The same genus if not species.
mike
LuckyH.
catherine yronwode wrote:
> Zeller Schwarze Katz! My grandfather was the Mosel trademark and
> copyright lawyer! We had CASES of that wine! I loved those little black
> cat charms when i was a kid!
>
> See some great Zeller Schwarze Katz labels at
> http://www.winegirl.ch/Subjects/Zeller.html
>
> cat yronwode
The labels are really cool. Did you manage to save any of the labels or
charms over the years? Their is another German wine that often comes
with a "heart" charm, but I can't recall the name. Have any idea?
-Jason
LuckyH.
>>The existance of native faience in
>>ancient Africa (well distant from egypt and ample natural dye materials
>>leaves cause for caution.
>How does anybody get the conclusion from this that it implies that
>Subsahara got faience from Egypt? It is stating very clearly that there
>is good reason to doubt that ancient faience in areas of Africa distant
>from Egypt was present due to Egyptian incfluence.
The big question is why are you assuming Eoghan is correct. I for one
am not and am currently trying to track down an expert on this. (Note:
Eoghan is NOT an expert on this.)
>This is the exact kind of muzzyheadedness I was trying to penetrate
>when we were discussing the role and importance of initiation in Voodoo
>elsewhere. But there is no rational discussion with an "expert" such as
>yourself. You make of other's statements what you want to make instead
>of sticking to the word as given. It must be hot in your lap with all
>that spilled tea.
>From someone whose own status of initiation is in question. I find it
so interesting that you only began your "campaign of hate" towards me
after I voiced my opinion that so many practioners of the religion are
not initiated, have not been taught by a qualified person as to what
they can or cannot do as an uninitiated person, and are instead making
up their own rituals in their basement and then slapping a "Voodoo"
label on it. Apparantly this fits you "oh so well" that you
immediately had to lash out against me to protect yourself. The
infamously hated "Mambo Racine" has a greater claim to aunthenticity
then you will ever possess, poseur.
>Sometimes Jason I wonder if you aren't Wiccan Wade in disguise, or a
>close relative. The same genus if not species.
>mike
Mike, your nose is a brown as it will ever be. Jumping into
discussions involving Eoghan, Cat, or any other person you wish to suck
up to, cannot possibly pile up any more crap than you currently wear
with pride. If you ever decide to wipe that crap off your face, and
live a life of integrity, then all you have to do is ask me and I will
be happy to throw you a diaper wipe.
-Jason
LuckyH.
>me.
>Eoghan
Yet you had to respond twice to my single responce.
Sorry, Eoghan but I truly think I hit a nerve here.
-Jason
quim...@inquiceweb.com
Eoghan
quim...@inquiceweb.com
Knowing that technologies, especially something as widespread as glass
production, can and have developed in various cultures without thoise
cultures having direct contact with each other does not require being
an expert. It simply requires reading more diverse sources than
Reader's Digest combined with a little common sense. In fact, if you
read even Reader's Digest often enough, you might stumble across that
fact. I suppose you will think me not enough of an expert in the matter
to trust my word that the Bantu discovered iron working without access
to outside cultures. Make better use of your time.
Eoghan
Miko Roktska (Mike Rock)
<< so interesting that you only began your "campaign of hate" towards
me
after I voiced my opinion that so many practioners of the religion are
not initiated, have not been taught by a qualified person as to what
they can or cannot do as an uninitiated person, and are instead making
up their own rituals in their basement and then slapping a "Voodoo"
label on it. Apparantly this fits you "oh so well" that you
immediately had to lash out against me to protect yourself. >>
Whoa this is certainly all backwards. And plenty of folks here who saw
our exchanges on the Hrcourse list can testify to that. That is not
what you said at all for the record.
You claimed that unless one was initiated in Voodoo that one could not
serve the lwa. I may even still have those emails saved. This is not
true. I said that the majority of serviteurs are not initiated and that
they have a valid and important place in the religion. Not everyone is
called to be a priest and have a community role, but they certainly can
serve their ancestors and their personal mysteries. This is as much a
part of Voodoo as leading public ceremonies as a priest or priestess. I
also pointed out that most of these servitors are in NYC, Miami,
Montreal and other epicenters of Haitian activity in the US, in
contrast to your emphasis on places like New Orleans, which does have
Haitians but not nearly as many as these other places.
I have no need to "lash out to protect myself" as I am a legitimately
initiated hounsi of the Sevis Gine. My father is Bo Houngan Yabofe da
Gineh Menfo, also present were Manbo Marie Carmel Charles, Manbo
Michele of New Orleans, Manbo Cheche Lavi of Atlanta, Manbo Joanne of
NYC, and others. I was initiated in uptown New Orleans in
September/October of 2001. The lwa greet me in service as one of their
children.
And I have no need to gain the approbation of Eoghan, or Cat or anyone
but God, the spirits, and my godfamily. I consider Eoghan and Cat
friends, and I certainly respect them, and unlike you I tend to limit
my more intense disagreements with them to offlist activities, though
those disagreements do remain friendly. Our differences are mainly
those of opinion rather than matters relating to facts, facts being
your weakest suit. Eoghan and I definitely do not always see eye to
eye, and that is evident from occasional posts between the two of us on
the HRCourse list. And also in Usenet archives on alt.religion.orisha.
And again, I do not hate you. I certainly do not respect you, and
calling it a campaign is certainly hyperbole and does nothing to
support any case for your own character or integrity. It does make you
look even more foolish. When you have already stepped in shit, why step
in it deeper? I am not perfect, but certainly have no doubts about my
character and integrity, and those who know me in person know that for
a fact. I don't doubt that you are basically a "nice guy", I don't see
your character as an issue. But the blind ignorance and stubborn
naivete that you display just makes me shake my head in distaste.
I guess you must be familiar with Wiccan Wade and I must have "struck a
nerve" as you put it. Bless your heart but you just aint seeing the
forest for the trees. I hope you do. I'm praying for you. Miss Alice or
anyone else can feel free to join me.
Manbo Kathy has nothing to do with you and me, or you and Eoghan, or
you and Miss Alice, or anybody else. When so many people seem to get
into these type discussions with you Jason, why do you overlook the
obvious common denominator?
blessings
mike
LuckyH.
Eoghan,
The reason for my disagreement with your claim that Faience is found
among many ancient African cultures is simply due to the fact that I
have actualy read about Faience, not in "Reader's Digest", and I know
how incredibly complex a material it is. For example, it is far from
being the "blue glass" you have stated above. Yes, Faience has the
appearance of glass but did you know that it is actualy classified as a
ceramic, though no clay is used in it's construction? Yes I am willing
to admit that various other African cultures have have produced
similiar items such as blue glazes, and blue glass. In my opinion I
feel that these would be similiar only along the lines of color and
cannot properly be said to be the same thing as actual "Faience".
>From reading your statements above, I also understand that you have yet
again used subtle words and phrases to downplay my level of
intelligence. If you fail to realize that you are in fact doing this
then I suggest turning your critical eye inward and performing some
well needed soul-searching. I have never replied to you with obvious
or sublte remarks with the intent of diminshing your percieved
expertise or with the implantation of false information, in this case
your percieved source of my arguement "Reader's Digest". (Note that in
your statements you never once asked me if I read such periodical, yet
you responded as if this verifiably true. For the record, I do not have
subscription but have read a few issues over the years, none of which
dealt with "Faience".) I should also tell you that none of these
little "put downs" bother me in the slightest and the only reason I am
bringing these up in the first place is that I know I am not the only
person you respond to in this manner. In the HR course & Hyatt list, I
have been privy to many a private email where the subject of your
replies was the topic of debate. I have even been contacted by lurkers
of this NG, after reading this thread, who have indicated that the
reason they stopped posting was due to intimidation from you, not
"correction" but the subtle and not so subtle remarks you make to
people. I can back up my personal claim with statements you have made
on this very thread, so let me know if you would like these and I would
be happy to gather them and list them for your conviencence.
-Jason
LuckyH.
>our exchanges on the Hrcourse list can testify to that. That is not
>what you said at all for the record.
>You claimed that unless one was initiated in Voodoo that one could not
>serve the lwa. I may even still have those emails saved.
Mike, you are what is properly refered to as a "Liar". Truth has no
special importance to you, neither does personal integrity. I never
once stated that non-iniates couldn't serve the Lwa. You made up the
lie on the list and you have repeated it here, even though I have now
corrected you in both "forums". When I corrected you the first time
you said this crap, you respond "But you think that the only thing the
unitiated can do is clap and cheer from sides". Again I responded that
this is incorrect. Mike, you are a DRAMA QUEEN. I have previously
explained to you that there is not a problem with what I wrote, merely
how it is interpretated in YOUR brain. I explained to you that there
are many things unitiated people can do as well as there are things
that the unitiated CANNOT do. You even had the nerve to take issue
with this. Now at the time, I began to have certain suspicions
concerning your motivations for lying and responding with your
"hatred". I have subsequently learned that my suspicions were
justified all along.
>And I have no need to gain the approbation of Eoghan, or Cat or anyone
>but God, the spirits, and my godfamily. I consider Eoghan and Cat
>friends, and I certainly respect them, and unlike you I tend to limit
>my more intense disagreements with them to offlist activities, though
>those disagreements do remain friendly. Our differences are mainly
>those of opinion rather than matters relating to facts, facts being
>your weakest suit. Eoghan and I definitely do not always see eye to
>eye, and that is evident from occasional posts between the two of us on
>the HRCourse list. And also in Usenet archives on alt.religion.orisha
Mike, anyone who is familiar with your posts know that you only mimick
the replies of the people you attempt to suck up to. You do not "get
the ball rolling" by tossing out a subject of debate as well as your
own personal opinions. Instead, you sit on your "high horse" and wait
for a "hot" topic to develop. Even then you don't immediately take
action. Instead, you quietly wait for Cat or Eoghan to reply so that
you can mimic their stance on the issue.
Not only are you a complete Fake and devoid of any genuine
individuality, you are also quite rude, crude, and ignorant in your
replies on this NG as well others. For example, on another NG a man
requested help because he believed his family name was cursed. Mike's
responce was to question the man's physical appearance and hygiene. On
this same NG, Mike has even replied to people that "Hoodoo" is not for
them and that they should look elsewhere! -The nerve!
>And again, I do not hate you. I certainly do not respect you
I know. You are incapeable of "respect", as it implies both honesty,
integrity, and authenticity, qualities that can be simulated but can
only be experienced by actual humans.
>I guess you must be familiar with Wiccan Wade and I must have "struck a
>nerve" as you put it. Bless your heart but you just aint seeing the
>forest for the trees. I hope you do. I'm praying for you. Miss Alice or
>anyone else can feel free to join me.
I would be shocked indeed if Miss Alice accepts your invitation, which
in itself is just a veiled "order". (You are also a control freak,
BTW). I don't harbor bad feelings toward her, even though we have
disagreed in the recent past. It's also interesting that you are
trying to bring her into the picture, when the only people that have
been discussed are Cat, Eoghan, & you and I. Truly this is only
between you and me. I am fuly capeable of standing on my own. Are
you?
You Know, I will let you know that your negativity and hatefulness is
the reason I left the HR course list. I congratulate you on your
ability to pull a fast one over Cat as she sincerely seemed ingorant of
your ulterior and obsessive motivation in attacking eveything I posted.
You chose your words well, and I can give that to you. However,
there's a difference from voluntarily leaving a private yahoogroup vs.
a public NG. You can reply as nasty as you want to here Mike but I
guarentee you that you will not succeed in your effort to run me off.
In fact, I will swing back at you harder than any effort you may have
saw in Cat's yahoogroup. (Out of respect for Cat, I highly censored my
replies toward you.)
Yours in Christ,
-Jason
Miko Roktska (Mike Rock)
anymore. Because I don't really care about you that much. But since you
are calling my honesty and character into question, I will need to do
some digging. Because what you are representing above is the opposite
of my recollection.
And dude I don't veil anything. You may not have noticed but I am not
too subtle in my approach. Subtley is the last thing any of my close
friends would ascribe to me. An invitation is simply an invitation. You
don't know anything about me or my character. I don't know anything
about your character and I have not said anything about your character
yet you want to smear my own.
As far as the other newsgroup, alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic, folks
can read the thread and judge for themselves. If someone came up to me
at the coffeeshop for a consultation about a social issue and asked me
what I thought of their situation, I could see them and judge for
myself, and if there are factors like hygeine, low self esteem, or
possible racism that could factor in on the mundane level, it would be
irresponsible to not clue them in. We apparently have different
understandings of honesty and integrity, because I would never send
someone off to do a bunch of magic sight unseen without covering the
social basics, and what that guy reported was a social issue. And I
said " I hate to have to ask the obvious questions" because well it is
not pleasant to have to ask about those things, but on the internet it
is the responsible thing to do in my opinion. Your opinion is
different. That's great. I won't call you a liar because you disagree.
Here is the thread: http://tinyurl.com/8zdnd
And why don't I introduce more topics of my own on Usenet? Maybe
because I am busy and have a life and don't have time to post every
inane observation for global consumption? Think about it.
At any rate I have to question who is the one with the vendetta or
something to prove here?
ciao for now
mike
LuckyH.
Miko Roktska (Mike Rock) wrote:
> You know I didn't even notice you were not posting on the HRCourse list
> anymore. Because I don't really care about you that much. But since you
> are calling my honesty and character into question, I will need to do
> some digging. Because what you are representing above is the opposite
> of my recollection.
The reason you even jumped in this thread swinging at me is proof
enough that what I mentioned was truth. You don't need to do any
"digging", you need to do some major soul-searching. I could care less
whether you like or dislike me as my sence of Identity is centered
within and I have no desire to pimp my soul and individuality out for
the mere approval or recognition of anyone else here, regardless of
their expertise or social standing.
>
> And dude I don't veil anything. You may not have noticed but I am not
> too subtle in my approach. Subtley is the last thing any of my close
> friends would ascribe to me. An invitation is simply an invitation. You
> don't know anything about me or my character.
Mike I don't think even you know anything about your own "character".
> I don't know anything
> about your character and I have not said anything about your character
> yet you want to smear my own.
You are mistaken. If I claimed you were a
gasoline-huffing-homosexual-pedophile, then yes, this would have been
an attack on your "character". I have never, in what little dealings
I have had with you, accused you of something that I did not have a
basis for. Nor have I attacked you in anyway. You, on the other hand,
have consistantly held the same behavior which I have now publicly
commented on.
>
> As far as the other newsgroup, alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic, folks
> can read the thread and judge for themselves. If someone came up to me
> at the coffeeshop for a consultation about a social issue and asked me
> what I thought of their situation, I could see them and judge for
> myself, and if there are factors like hygeine, low self esteem, or
> possible racism that could factor in on the mundane level, it would be
> irresponsible to not clue them in. We apparently have different
> understandings of honesty and integrity, because I would never send
> someone off to do a bunch of magic sight unseen without covering the
> social basics, and what that guy reported was a social issue. And I
> said " I hate to have to ask the obvious questions" because well it is
> not pleasant to have to ask about those things, but on the internet it
> is the responsible thing to do in my opinion. Your opinion is
> different. That's great. I won't call you a liar because you disagree.
>
> Here is the thread: http://tinyurl.com/8zdnd
No Mike. People don't go to an NG dedicated to "magical" topics and
expect to read an incredibly offensive reply such as the one you made.
I also serious doubt you would have even said it in person, to his face
even. If he requires help with hygiene or his physical apperance, then
he would know this and would have sought the appropriate online forum.
He came there for a magical explanation as well as any recommendations.
You responded the way you did because you are simply a very rude person
who likes to pretend to be a well-mannered and educated individual in
front of the people you wish to impress while reverting to your true
hideous form when these said people are not around.
>
> And why don't I introduce more topics of my own on Usenet? Maybe
> because I am busy and have a life and don't have time to post every
> inane observation for global consumption? Think about it.
Yet you make the time to "crash" any thread which concerns me and the
possible interaction of those whom you wish to brown-nose.
>
> At any rate I have to question who is the one with the vendetta or
> something to prove here?
Good Question. You entered this thread swinging at me. I have ignored
you in various NG's after leaving the HRcourse yahoogroup yet it is you
who have attempted to provoke a reaction in me by replying to any
thread in which involves the same few individiual you attempt to
impress. Now you are trying to turn around and imply that I am the one
with "the vendetta or something to prove". Offhand, I do recal a
certain exchange that quickly turned sexually graphic as you described
to me your fantasies of wanting to insert something into my rectum.
Well, your "rape fantasies" as well as your constant "hate-filled"
replies to threads which do not involve you, are pretty much evidence
that you are a tad bit obsessed with me. Do I need to get some type of
"Internet VPO"?
>
> ciao for now
>
> mike
No, how about "Ciao" for ever. You have no need to engage me in any
subsequent conversation. I have never once attempted to initiate a
conversation with you.
-Jason
Joseph Littleshoes
>
> You claimed that unless one was initiated in Voodoo that one could not
> serve the lwa.
Given the association of catholic saints with the lwa (at lest
according to google) i wonder if the "Lwa" is but one name for a natural
phenomena that exists whether individual cultures recognize it or not.
And that, under many names and propitiated or otherwise served or
worshiped with varying rites and ceremonies?
Or are the "Lwa" a separate set of 'spirits' apart from all other
'spirits'? are they claimed to be a subset of a general set? Or are the
"Lwa" but one name and practice for a universal phenomena? Or is there
any fundamental belief that the "Lwa" are in any way the only "Truth"
like other dogmatic religions.
My limited perusal of the literature would suggest to me that it is
not, but every religion i have ever ran across has this side to it,
perhaps more pronounced in some than others but there in all of them.
Taoism and Zen being two of the least offensive in this respect, but
much of animism, recognizing the infinite diversity of the world, finds
it relatively easy to incorporate the new into the belief patterns with
out sacrificing the old, most often merging the new in an understanding
of similarities rather than an emphasis on difference, which more often
than not is almost purely semantic. Once we get past arguing about the
proper name of the spirit of the rock it is still the spirit of the rock.
It seems to me, in my very scanty reading of voodoo articles on the net
that the divisions of the "Lwa" are more similar than different to that
of various polytheistic cultures acknowledgement of distinct and
individual "gods" or "spirits" for major and important phenomena. A god
or lwa of Love for example. As well as elements and natural phenomena
and human concepts such as justice or revenge.
I wish i could remember the Latin terms for cultures that while
polytheistic recognize a 'supreme' often times creator "God" as head of
a pantheon and cultures that while pantheistic do not have a 'supreme'
God. Animism in one form or another seems almost universal.
The more i read the less i am inclined to favour any one system and more
inclined to make, or at least attempt to make, an intimate contact with
these "Spirits" in the hope of establishing a relationship with them
dependent only on myself. To date i have not tried to 'communicate' or
propitiate as much as i have invoked and evoked for specific purposes,
treating them more as an energy to be used than personalities or being
to form relationships with.
Servicing or working with various minor 'spirits' as in evocation seems
a relatively easy task for me. But one cant help but wonder about
'group think' or the idea of numbers of people focused on the same
actions, words, 'spirits' as defined by their culture having a more
powerful effect than an individual evoking these same 'spirits' under
different names, especially secret names known only to the individual
and communicated to the individual by the 'spirit'.
I tend ultimately to come down on the side of any 'spirit' being but a
part of a greater whole in a hierarchic sense that culminates in a
creator god where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, but
could not exist without all the parts.
Even aside form the simple bigness of the universe it is thought by some
to be but one eternity lost in an infinity of eternity's and by itself
insignificant & meaningless.
But if that insignificant part of the whole exists in everything, it
should be but a matter of will to exercise it. Or in some way become
more at one with it. Which it is surmised could be the first step on a
ladder of ascending awareness. We are linked to our individual spirit,
which is linked to it's over soul, which is a part of the local deity
that sits at the right hand of THE deity, and there the relationship
gets problematical, to ascend the ladder of awareness to be in the
presence of "God" well..then what?
I tend to think there is an organic, "hard wired" route to this
ascending hierarchy, i also think it is closer in nature to a literal
child's play than it is the most esoteric religious practices but that's
another post altogether.
If nothing else the ability to access this 'higher awareness' is, IMO,
inherent to the human animal.
---
Joseph Littleshoes
Miko Roktska (Mike Rock)
person
who likes to pretend to be a well-mannered and educated individual in
front of the people you wish to impress while reverting to your true
hideous form when these said people are not around. >>
Umm you do realize that all the people whom you are referring to read
and post to all the same groups that I do right? Including the one
where you are so offended?
And you are also forgetting that I defended you when Miss Alice called
you out for posting about that Edenbolake chick and that list owner. I
even did some Googling for you. Such little gratitude you show. My
interest is in fairness. If someone is unfair to you I will back you
up, even though your gutter language hardly qualifies you to deserve
it. You were unfair to Eoghan so I backed him up. That is just the way
it is.
Oh and rape fantasies? Sorry I don't make sexual offers sight unseen.
Especially to guys with a paranoid delusion of grandiose persecution.
Does your self-absorption have any limit? I have no idea what you are
talking about here. Feel free to post a link to whatever the hell you
are talking about. On second thought don't bother.
regards
Mike
quim...@inquiceweb.com
and offer some encouragement. I don't intend to belittle anyone, but
neither am I to blame for those who take offense where none is
intended, or those individuals like yourself, who harangue others for
the sake of it. I am happy to debate with strongly opinionated people
over subjects of interest, but when it devolves into pointless
ramblings where personality is the only issue I will bow out. There are
simply more interesting conversations to have.
Eoghan
LuckyH.
>Eoghan
Well apparantly Eoghan cannot take criticism, even when this criticism
is leveled against his use of small subtle phrases and words to
put-down people he is engaging in discussion or debate in. Eoghan, if
you ever come back to this thread I hope you read this reply because I
will list every small put-down you have made to let you know that you
do actualy do this, whether consciously or not.
1. "(the bantu were not the only
Africans outside of Egypt you know), "
Most people are quite aware that Africa is a culturaly diverse
continent.
2. "but I suspect you could be a bit more selective in the
materials you choose to read. But if you wish to debate with me (and I
admit to a deep seated enjoyment of debate) then do not insert
assumptions between my words. It will trip you up."
a.) notice the subtle jab at intelligence in the first sentence.
b.) notice that he later stated not to "insert assumptions between his
words" yet his first sentence was clearly a jab.
3. " The presence of faience only suggests
Egypt to those who do not know about the history of African material
culture. "
Again Eoghan implies I am ingorant, or at the very least"uneducated",
in this case, on the subject of "African Material Culture".
4.) "That doesn't make me better, or even more intelligent than you,
just
more careful in my choice of words, and possibly a bit more widely read
than you."
One of my favorites! "I'm not better than you, just more articulated
and more knowledgable on many a diverse topic."
5.) "Knowing that technologies, especially something as widespread as
glass
production, can and have developed in various cultures without thoise
cultures having direct contact with each other does not require being
an expert. It simply requires reading more diverse sources than
Reader's Digest combined with a little common sense."
Again, Eoghan repeats his subtle jabs and even attributes false
information (Reader's Digest) to me and presents it as if it is
verifiable fact. Also note that not only is this a jab at me, but also
of the periodical in question.
So you see Eoghan, you do have a history of doing exactly what I have
just informed you of. I will give you the benefit of the doubt as to
whether you were consciously aware or not. In the future, please be
more aware of this when communicating with people. You realy didn't so
much as offend me, rather just annoy, but I know that you have offended
other people in the past and this is the main reason I am even bringing
this to your attention in the first place. Also be aware that I hold
no grudges toward you and wold be happy to engage in conversation at a
future time.
-Jason
LuckyH.
>and post to all the same groups that I do right? Including the one
>where you are so offended?
My replies are directed at you Mike. You assume you have the support
of many a person here. Why is that? Don't look for back-up, this
concerns you and me.
>And you are also forgetting that I defended you when Miss Alice called
>you out for posting about that Edenbolake chick and that list owner. I
>even did some Googling for you. Such little gratitude you show.
1. You only "weighed-in" after Cat Yronwode had already spoken her
piece, so that you could mimick her reply. (The same as you always do,
either for her or the few other people you attempt to suck up to. Now
I have stated this several times already......How many more times will
I be forced to respond in this fashion?)
2. Please re-read your reply to me on that thread. Notice how your
gleefuly weave your trade-mark put-downs and nastiness into a reply
that reportedly "supported and defended" me. You are a Joke, Mike.
> My
>interest is in fairness. If someone is unfair to you I will back you
>up, even though your gutter language hardly qualifies you to deserve
>it. You were unfair to Eoghan so I backed him up. That is just the way
>it is.
Again you are incorrect. Eoghan and I were participating in a
discussion. You jumped in swinging at me simply because it is part of
your obsession and harassment of me.
>Oh and rape fantasies? Sorry I don't make sexual offers sight unseen.
>Especially to guys with a paranoid delusion of grandiose persecution.
>Does your self-absorption have any limit? I have no idea what you are
>talking about here. Feel free to post a link to whatever the hell you
>are talking about. On second thought don't bother.
Did you save the emails that you sent to me after Cat didn't approve
your comments on the HRcourse list? If so, I believe you will find
them there.
-Jason
quim...@inquiceweb.com
reason to bear a grudge. I do have strong, informed opinions, and have
done the research to back them up. It's also true that I am not afraid
to express them. However, that neither makes me divisive nor rude. If
people do not like my opinions they are welcome to disagree or ignore
me. It does not however justify the sort of vitreol that you are
constantly sprouting, and not only toward me.
As for the details of your remarks, if you actually believe that I
attributed your remarks as having come from the Reader's digest, you
clearly have a problem interpreting even the most basic forms of
conversation. It was an example, not an attribution. It occurs to me
that you have some serious problem interpreting written material and
people's intent. Either you are a young teenager, which I doubt, or you
have a neurological problem that you should have investigated. And that
is not a putdown, I'm serious.
This will be my last post attempting to discuss anything with you
Jason. I will reiterate one fact which must be obvious to everyone but
yourself. If I were the only person with whom you were embroiled in
battles, it might be reasonable to ask if I were in some way a
contributor to the fracas. However, you seem to have almost no other
sort of interaction with people. Well yes, I did contribute; I made the
mistake of actually talking with you. Don't worry, it won't happen
again.
As I said before, you have both energy and enthusiasm, both of which
are admirable qualities. It is a pity that you so thoroughly misdirect
them.
Eoghan
LuckyH.
quim...@inquiceweb.com wrote:
> Well, that's only appropriate. After all I wrote nothing which gave you
> reason to bear a grudge. I do have strong, informed opinions, and have
> done the research to back them up. It's also true that I am not afraid
> to express them. However, that neither makes me divisive nor rude. If
> people do not like my opinions they are welcome to disagree or ignore
> me. It does not however justify the sort of vitreol that you are
> constantly sprouting, and not only toward me.
!.) Eoghan, I was not refering to your "opinions". Instead, I was
refering to the slight and subtle methodology you imploy, whether with
conscious intent or not, to undermine, and demean individuals of whom
you are engaged in discussion.
> As for the details of your remarks, if you actually believe that I
> attributed your remarks as having come from the Reader's digest, you
> clearly have a problem interpreting even the most basic forms of
> conversation. It was an example, not an attribution. It occurs to me
> that you have some serious problem interpreting written material and
> people's intent. Either you are a young teenager, which I doubt, or you
> have a neurological problem that you should have investigated. And that
> is not a putdown, I'm serious.
1.) Eoghan, Like most people you are blind to your dark-side. Do not
think for one instance that I am the only person who feels this way.
2.) I never stated or implied that you were attributing my commentary
as having it's origin in "Reader's Digest". I have clearly accused you
of using that reference as an attempt to insult my intelligience.
Please re-read your replies with "fresh eyes".
3.) Yet again you have responded to lame insults.
A.) "Either you are a young teenager, which I doubt,"
This comment you wrote above is indicative of internal power
issues. You are attempting to once again, devalue and trivialize my
input.
B.) "...or you have a neurolgoical problem that you should have
investigated, and that is not a pud down, I'm serious."
This comment you wrote above is indicative of internal power
issues. You are attempting to once again, devalue and trivialize my
input.
>
> This will be my last post attempting to discuss anything with you
> Jason. I will reiterate one fact which must be obvious to everyone but
> yourself. If I were the only person with whom you were embroiled in
> battles, it might be reasonable to ask if I were in some way a
> contributor to the fracas. However, you seem to have almost no other
> sort of interaction with people. Well yes, I did contribute; I made the
> mistake of actually talking with you. Don't worry, it won't happen
> again.
The fact that you are "running away" from my confrontation is most
sufficient
proof that there is indeed truth to the issue. I also find it amusing
that you are
uncomfortable when faced with said confrontation. You must be so use
to having those who dare question you on any subject, crumble under the
constant pressure of your "passive-agressive" insults, attacks, and
veiled threats. You also have the esteemed position for personaly
driving off many would-be-contributors to this NG, HR Course, Hyatt
List, and several other places formerly regarded as places of learning.
-All because you demand others to hold your words, thoughts, opinions,
and Ideas at such an exagerated and enourmous height, far removed from
the everyday man and woman. Wake up Eoghan, You are not a God.
To top it off, you have the nerve to identify yourself with the scum
that has jumped into this thread, attacking me. I have gone to
considerable lengths to make lurkers aware that I did not hold you to
be in the same catogory as I held "The scum". You have simply amazed
me with your choice to voluntarily identify yourself with said person.
Good for you. At least any doubt as to what type of person you are can
now be casualy disgarded.
> As I said before, you have both energy and enthusiasm, both of which
> are admirable qualities. It is a pity that you so thoroughly misdirect
> them.
>
> Eoghan
No, Eoghan. The pitty is that you lack such depth and clarity to be
able to see that I was not responding to you out of anger, hatred, or
attempt to diminsh any possible input. I chose to confront you because
this is a problem you currently have. You can chose to insult me
further or ignore me all-together, none of this will matter as long as
you continue to treat people the way you do.
-Jason