The NLP Cult
LuckyH.
Pseudo-Scientific/New-Age form of "Mind Reformation", a.k.a. Mind
Control, which is gaining popularity amongst Corporations,
Fraternities, Societies, and Orders. Psychologists have denounced the
practice as being harmful to the psyche and have made accusations of
practioners belonging to a "Cult". When criticism began spreading
concerning the practice of NLP, many of it's popular proponents simply
re-named the practice and again began to sell such systems to
Corporations, Fraternities, Orders, etc.
This is some scary stuff folks. Many victims claim their Employer is
using such tactics to "destroy and rebuild" them in the fashion they
deem proper. Many people have come forward claiming the were forced to
convert to the religious ideals of the people operating NLP at their
places of employment, and far worse.
Neuro-Lingquistic Programming
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming
Psychotechnology Research Institue
(Bastards Selling Mind Control Systems to Corporations Specificly to be
Used on Employees. Don't believe me? Read the first page, then click
on the link for "Human Resources")
http://int.psycor.ru/main.php?smir
"BE INFORMED"
-Jason
Cyli
It's not as if it's all that effective, Jason. Read the NLP groups
some time. They're always squabbling and putting each other down.
It's a bit of use for sales people in their jobs, but that's about all
I can see.
--
r.bc: vixen
Speaker to squirrels, willow watcher, etc..
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless. Really.
johns
Depends on where you live regards how much of
it you are subjected to. Having cult religion shoved
in my face on my job is nothing new to me .. and
it comes from the highest ranking people here.
The best I can hope for in this environment is to
be ignored as an outsider who will never conform,
and be allowed to live in peace. Otherwise, it is
a Federal Crime, and can be dealt with on that
level.
johns
jackal...@hotmail.com
as a means for people to safely explore willed brain change? This guy
probably knows more about cults than anyone on the planet and as far as
I know has never labelled NLP as being such.
And come on, if you actually knew anything practically about NLP you'd
realise it's pretty much indistinguishable from magick. If magick is
willed brain change then NLP is magick. A modern, highly effective
form.
Regards,
zootsoot
LuckyH.
Cyli wrote:
> It's not as if it's all that effective, Jason. Read the NLP groups
> some time. They're always squabbling and putting each other down.
> It's a bit of use for sales people in their jobs, but that's about all
> I can see.
> --
>
> r.bc: vixen
> Speaker to squirrels, willow watcher, etc..
> Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless. Really.
>
> http://www.visi.com/~cyli
Individual succesptability to any form of "Mind Control" varries,
though usualy people labeled "Loner's", "Independant Thinkers", and
"Gifted/Genuises" show more resistance to such tactics. Nobody is 100%
immune.
"The Weapons Of Tomorrow Will Not Only Be Aimed At Hitting Your Body,
They Will Also Be Aimed At Your Mind." - Armen Victorian
-Jason
LuckyH.
Well, the whole thing *smacks* of the "brain-washing" scene in "A
Clockwork Orange" to me.
-Jason
LuckyH.
jackal...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Did you guys know that Robert Anton Wilson is a great supporter of NLP
> as a means for people to safely explore willed brain change? This guy
> probably knows more about cults than anyone on the planet and as far as
> I know has never labelled NLP as being such.
The man subscribes to many bizarre beliefs and is a practioner and
supporter of NLP. He is not a respected Psychologist, however.
Also realize that just because a man participates in something, doesn't
mean that "something" is good. Timothy Leary loved Acid. Timothy
Leary also worked for covert CIA Mind Control Studies that used LSD in
their Research.
> And come on, if you actually knew anything practically about NLP you'd
> realise it's pretty much indistinguishable from magick. If magick is
> willed brain change then NLP is magick. A modern, highly effective
> form.
>
> Regards,
>
> zootsoot
There's a huge difference between someone willingly choosing to engage
in a practice and Corporations FORCING a system designed to control
their thoughts, actions, and behaviors, upon them.
Remember, NLP has *splintered* into so many fragmented forms that
nobody can truly keep up with them.
There is one form that promotes dependance on a "Handler", though they
prefer to call them "Guardian Angel". The person is taught to always
obey the Handler, oops...Guardian Angel, and to never question their
motivations or orders as they truly have their best interest in mind.
Can You Say, MIND CONTROLLED SLAVE?
NLP, as well as it's many forms, have their origin in covert government
"Mind Control" studies carriet out under such names as Project MKULTRA,
Project MONARCH, Project BLUEBIRD, Project ARTICHOKE, etc...
The same research was simply re-packaged and tied with a "New-Age"
ribbon to make it more appealing to the massess.
It's no wonder that the remake of "The Manchurian Candidate" did not
feature a "Government Conspiracy". Instead, the evil forces behind the
Mind Control are Corporations.
-Jason
paul...@comcast.net
> Well, the whole thing *smacks* of the "brain-washing" scene in "A
> Clockwork Orange" to me.
>
> -Jason
Freude, schöner Götterfunken,
Tochter aus Elysium,
Wir betreten feuertrunken
Himmlische, Dein Heiligtum.
Lucky
Care to translate? The only part I understood was "Daughter from
Elysium (Paradise)".
Is this a poem?
-Jason
jackal...@hotmail.com
> The man subscribes to many bizarre beliefs and is a practioner and
> supporter of NLP. He is not a respected Psychologist, however.
Actually the main thing about Wilson is that he doesn't believe in
anything, so he doesn't believe in NLP but finds it useful, I'd
imagine.
> Also realize that just because a man participates in something, doesn't
> mean that "something" is good.
I absolutely agree but I would argue that you can never say that
something "is" good. To do so would be to be coming from the
perspective of Aristotelian essentialism, as if everything, including
NLP, had an essential nature. By this reckoning you can't therefore say
NLP is essentially "bad" either. There are some parts of the discipline
that you or I may find manipulative and immoral, such as rapport in
sales work. Equally there are many parts of it which, I for one,
morally find extremely praiseworthy, such as the ability for its
practitioners to create more advantageous choices in life, especially
when these new choices lead to a decrease in suffering in the world.
Also, you may point to the way NLP is used a lot of the time, say in
workplaces to manipulate staff, to point to it being "bad". But in this
case what "is" bad, NLP or the body employing NLP in this way. I
regard, as all practitioners as far as I know do, NLP as a tool, how
its used is the responsibilty of the craftsman. I'm sure you can see
what I'm getting at here, since magick is exactly the same, some use it
for negative purposes, some for positive ones.
> There is one form that promotes dependance on a "Handler", though they
> prefer to call them "Guardian Angel". The person is taught to always
> obey the Handler, oops...Guardian Angel, and to never question their
> motivations or orders as they truly have their best interest in mind.
>
Timothy
> Leary also worked for covert CIA Mind Control Studies that used LSD in
> their Research.
> NLP, as well as it's many forms, have their origin in covert government
> "Mind Control" studies carriet out under such names as Project MKULTRA,
> Project MONARCH, Project BLUEBIRD, Project ARTICHOKE, etc...
Do you have any evidence for these two assertions? I know less about
Leary than I do about the origins of NLP but having read bits and
pieces by RAW about Leary I find this to unlikely. He got into enough
heat about supposedly grassing on associates to get out of jail. That
would seem small potatoes compared to what you assert, if it's correct.
And I don't know where you get that bunkum about the origins of NLP
from. The origins of NLP are well known and very open, there was no
secrecy around it at the beginning. It was two University guys, Bandler
and Grinder, simple as that. Or were they government agents, instructed
to proliferate it throughout the world? Not much of a "covert
government study" if millions of people across the globe know about it,
is it?
> There is one form that promotes dependance on a "Handler", though they
> prefer to call them "Guardian Angel". The person is taught to always
> obey the Handler, oops...Guardian Angel, and to never question their
> motivations or orders as they truly have their best interest in mind.
I've never heard of this, could you please give me some info so I can
find out about it. But at the moment it seems to me that you're getting
NLP and Magick mixed up: the concept of a Guardian Angel is pure
magick. I don't know if this is some strange satire about Richard
Bandler. There is indeed some controversy as to his status in the NLP
movement, some arguing that he comes across as too much of a guru. I
personally find any unflinching devotion to any one person or thing
positively nauseating so I do find this aspect of NLP "bad". But I very
much doubt that Bandler actually encourages disciples, beyond his
somewhat distasteful, to me, self-aggrandizement. The sad fact is that
often people who say that they have the answers to some of life's
problems do attract obsequious followers, but to my mind the fault lies
with the asshole looking for a body to attach himself to.
So to summarise NLP is what you make it. It contains techniques that
you can use to change yourself and others. What you do with it is up to
you.
Regards,
zootsoot
Tom
"LuckyH." <Lucky...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1153933514.3...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
> jackal...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> Did you guys know that Robert Anton Wilson is a great supporter of NLP
>> as a means for people to safely explore willed brain change? This guy
>> probably knows more about cults than anyone on the planet and as far as
>> I know has never labelled NLP as being such.
>
> The man subscribes to many bizarre beliefs
Oh, gee. That must make him totally different from anybody in alt.magick.
> and is a practioner and
> supporter of NLP. He is not a respected Psychologist, however.
No, he's not. Then again, neither are you.
> Timothy
> Leary also worked for covert CIA Mind Control Studies that used LSD in
> their Research.
What evidence can you cite to support that claim?
This whole schick sounds more and more like the most recent outlet for your
paranoia.
> Remember, NLP has *splintered* into so many fragmented forms that
> nobody can truly keep up with them.
Which is why all the generalizing you've been doing about them is stupid.
NLP started off with a few pretty solid ideas and then took off into Newage
la-la land and corporate dog-and-pony shows. Happens all the time. They're
no more dangerous than any of the other silly asses who sell pop psych
seminars to executives looking for some excuse to take a day off without
feeling too guilty about it. Nobody really expects anybody to actually
believe any of it.
> NLP, as well as it's many forms, have their origin in covert government
> "Mind Control" studies carriet out under such names as Project MKULTRA,
> Project MONARCH, Project BLUEBIRD, Project ARTICHOKE, etc...
Cite the evidence for this claim, too, Jason.
Tom
"Lucky" <Lucky...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1153937157....@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Duh. Yah, it's a poem by Friedrich Schiller, made famous largely because it
was set to music by Ludwig Van Beethoven and comprises the fourth movement
of his 9th Symphony, which probably the best known classical piece in the
whole world. Beethoven's music was a central element in "A Clockwork
Orange", a book by Anthony Burgess which was made into a movie by Stanley
Kubrick, also widely known. (The things you *don't* know!)
Here's an English translation of the poem, entitled "Ode to Joy".
Translation by William Wertz.
Joy, thou beauteous godly lightning,
Daughter of Elysium,
Fire drunken we are ent'ring
Heavenly, thy holy home!
Thy enchantments bind together,
What did custom stern divide,
Every man becomes a brother,
Where thy gentle wings abide.
Chorus.
Be embrac'd, ye millions yonder!
Take this kiss throughout the world!
Brothers-o'er the stars unfurl'd
Must reside a loving Father.
Who the noble prize achieveth,
Good friend of a friend to be;
Who a lovely wife attaineth,
Join us in his jubilee!
Yes-he too who but {one} being
On this earth can call {his} own!
He who ne'er was able, weeping
Stealeth from this league alone!
Chorus.
He who in the great ring dwelleth,
Homage pays to sympathy!
To the stars above leads she,
Where on high the {Unknown} reigneth.
Joy is drunk by every being
From kind nature's flowing breasts,
Every evil, every good thing
For her rosy footprint quests.
Gave she {us} both {vines} and kisses,
In the face of death a friend,
To the worm were given blisses
And the Cherubs God attend.
Chorus.
Fall before him, all ye millions?
{Know'st} thou the Creator, world?
Seek above the stars unfurl'd,
Yonder dwells He in the heavens.
Joy commands the hardy mainspring
Of the universe eterne.
Joy, oh joy the wheel is driving
Which the worlds' great clock doth turn.
Flowers from the buds she coaxes,
Suns from out the hyaline,
Spheres she rotates through expanses,
Which the seer can't divine.
Chorus.
As the suns are flying, happy
Through the heaven's glorious plane,
Travel, brothers, down your lane,
Joyful as in hero's vict'ry.
From the truth's own fiery mirror
On the searcher {doth} she smile.
Up the steep incline of honor
Guideth {she} the suff'rer's mile.
High upon faith's sunlit mountains
One can see {her} banner flies,
Through the breach of open'd coffins
{She} in angel's choir doth rise.
Chorus.
Suffer on courageous millions!
Suffer for a better world!
O'er the tent of stars unfurl'd
God rewards you from the heavens.
Gods can never be requited,
Beauteous 'tis, their like to be.
Grief and want shall be reported,
So to cheer with gaiety.
Hate and vengeance be forgotten,
Pardon'd be our mortal foe,
Not a teardrop shall him dampen,
No repentance bring him low.
Chorus.
Let our book of debts be cancell'd!
Reconcile the total world!
Brothers-o'er the stars unfurl'd
God doth judge, as we have settl'd.
Joy doth bubble from this rummer,
From the golden blood of grape
Cannibals imbibe good temper,
Weak of heart their courage take-
Brothers, fly up from thy places,
When the brimming cup doth pass,
Let the foam shoot up in spaces:
To the goodly Soul this glass!
Chorus.
Whom the crown of stars doth honor,
Whom the hymns of Seraphs bless,
To the goodly Soul this glass
O'er the tent of stars up yonder!
Courage firm in grievous trial,
Help, where innocence doth scream,
Oaths which sworn to are eternal,
Truth to friend and foe the same,
Manly pride 'fore kingly power-
Brothers, cost it life and blood,-
Honor to whom merits honor,
Ruin to the lying brood!
Chorus.
Closer draw the holy circle,
Swear it by this golden wine,
Faithful to the vow divine,
Swear it by the Judge celestial!
Rescue from the tyrant's fetters,
Mercy to the villain e'en,
Hope within the dying hours,
Pardon at the guillotine!
E'en the dead shall live in heaven!
Brothers, drink and all agree,
Every sin shall be forgiven,
Hell forever cease to be.
Chorus.
A serene departing hour!
Pleasant sleep beneath the pall!
Brothers-gentle words for all
Doth the Judge of mortals utter!
LuckyH.
Here's is but one link. Do your own websearch for more info on this
topic.:
Tinker, Tailor, Toker, Spy: Was Timothy Leary a CIA Agent?
http://www.markriebling.com/leary.html
Did you know Timothy Leary was paid to perform tests of LSD on Prison
Inmates, prior to his "LSD for Enlightenment" campaign?
>
> And I don't know where you get that bunkum about the origins of NLP
> from. The origins of NLP are well known and very open, there was no
> secrecy around it at the beginning. It was two University guys, Bandler
> and Grinder, simple as that. Or were they government agents, instructed
> to proliferate it throughout the world? Not much of a "covert
> government study" if millions of people across the globe know about it,
> is it?
When you get free time, try researching Project MKULTRA, various Mind
Control studies of the CIA, as well as the connection betwee "New-Age"
and the "CIA". I'm sure you will find material to shock and suprise
you.
>
> > There is one form that promotes dependance on a "Handler", though they
> > prefer to call them "Guardian Angel". The person is taught to always
> > obey the Handler, oops...Guardian Angel, and to never question their
> > motivations or orders as they truly have their best interest in mind.
>
> I've never heard of this, could you please give me some info so I can
> find out about it.
Yes, I believe the link I provided on NLP above mentios this.
> But at the moment it seems to me that you're getting
> NLP and Magick mixed up
LOL....You are the one claiming that NLP is Magick. You are the only
person that I am aware of to suggest this.
>: the concept of a Guardian Angel is pure
> magick. I don't know if this is some strange satire about Richard
> Bandler. There is indeed some controversy as to his status in the NLP
> movement, some arguing that he comes across as too much of a guru. I
> personally find any unflinching devotion to any one person or thing
> positively nauseating so I do find this aspect of NLP "bad". But I very
> much doubt that Bandler actually encourages disciples, beyond his
> somewhat distasteful, to me, self-aggrandizement. The sad fact is that
> often people who say that they have the answers to some of life's
> problems do attract obsequious followers, but to my mind the fault lies
> with the asshole looking for a body to attach himself to.
>
> So to summarise NLP is what you make it. It contains techniques that
> you can use to change yourself and others. What you do with it is up to
> you.
>
> Regards,
>
> zootsoot
I don't think you understand what I am refering to. Individual People
getting into NLP is one thing. However, the controversy of NLP is that
Corporations are using is against their employeees, forcing it upon
them.
When Corporations "force" NLP on their employees, it doesn't just
involve a "Pep Rally". Actual techniques are practiced which border,
if not cross over into, psychological abuse.
-Jason
LuckyH.
Tom wrote:
> "LuckyH." <Lucky...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1153933514.3...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > jackal...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >> Did you guys know that Robert Anton Wilson is a great supporter of NLP
> >> as a means for people to safely explore willed brain change? This guy
> >> probably knows more about cults than anyone on the planet and as far as
> >> I know has never labelled NLP as being such.
> >
> > The man subscribes to many bizarre beliefs
>
> Oh, gee. That must make him totally different from anybody in alt.magick.
Tom, it's impossible to engage in an intelligent conversation with you.
I will not fall into that trap this time. You may skim off my replies
to other people to get the answers you seek.
-Jason
catherine yronwode
I agree, Cyli. Also, to take this to a meta-discussion level, i think
that a strange set of newsgroups was selected for cross-posting, which
will result in very little light being shed on the subject. Reasons i
say this: (1) NLP is not about lucky charms or worldwide folk-magic. (2)
NLP is not a form of magic(k). (3) NLP is not a crime. (4) NLP is not a
true crime. So ... it's off-topic for all 4 groups.
Perhaps these "warnings" are instances of what i call "personal
obsession spam." I notice the same poster also recently put through a
cross-posted FAQ about gang-stalking -- to the above newsgroups, plus to
alt.religion.orisha, a newsgroup devoted to African Diasporic Religions
(e.g. Santeria, Lukumi, Palo, Vodun, etc.). Again, the post was entirely
off-topic, and it was filled with dire warnings.
Off-topic and cross-posted "warning" messages and "personal obsession
spam" are nothing new in usenet. Alt.magick, in particular, has seen
more than its share of these things over the years. Kill-filing the
originator is my rather mild initial response -- and openly
meta-discussing the issue in response to a long thread that develops is
my rather mild second response. Not replying to the spammer's off-topic
"warnings" is what i wish you all would do -- but, if you do reply to
the spammer, please break the cross-posting links, so that the stuff
will not propagate all over the known usenet landscape.
Thanks for reading this, and good luck to all in all the newsgroups in
which this appears, and best wishes for happiness.
cat yronwode
http://www.luckymojo.com/blues.html
blues lyrics and hoodoo folk magic
Tom
>
> Tom wrote:
>> "LuckyH." <Lucky...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:1153933514.3...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > jackal...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> >> Did you guys know that Robert Anton Wilson is a great supporter of NLP
>> >> as a means for people to safely explore willed brain change? This guy
>> >> probably knows more about cults than anyone on the planet and as far
>> >> as
>> >> I know has never labelled NLP as being such.
>> >
>> > The man subscribes to many bizarre beliefs
>>
>> Oh, gee. That must make him totally different from anybody in
>> alt.magick.
>
> Tom, it's impossible to engage in an intelligent conversation with you.
Actually, it's pretty easy to do that, if you happen to be capable of it.
It is not "intelligent discussion" to dismiss the testimony of a person who
knows quite a bit about quite a lot of cults and about NLP in particular
merely because you say he has "bizarre beliefs". That's called an "ad
hominem" fallacy and intelligent people avoid it in any conversation they
want to deem "intelligent".
It is also not "intelligent discussion" to denounce NLP in general as a cult
when you yourself point out that its proponents vary from one another so
widely that you can't even keep track of all the variations. That's a
fallacy called "overgeneralization".
Nor is it "intelligent discussion" to make claims based entirely on the
paranoid speculations of conspiracy mongers and to resent anyone who
disputes them. That's a fallacy called "argument from authority".
If you want to try having an intelligent discussion on this subject, you're
going to have to dispense with those fallacies and come up with some
rational arguments instead.
Perhaps you might try to make the claim that NLP, as presented by most of
the corporate dog-and-pony impresarios, is bogus and doesn't really do what
they say it does. That position could be supported (and disputed) in an
intelligent discussion. A claim that it's an evil conspiracy bent on world
domination by mind control is just not amenable to any intelligent
discussion.
LuckyH.
I met Ms. Yronwode online approximately 1999 or so, and for many years
carried on civil and interesting/enlightening conversations with her.
During this time I also spoke with her on the phone on a few occasions
and was an avid customer at her store, LuckyMojo.
In May of 2005, I began to experience Gang*Stalking at the hands of my
former employer. (See Post titled "Gang*Stalking FAQ" for more
Information) Now, why was I Gang Stalked? I can only format three
options at this time:
1. During the 4 years I was employed with said Corporation I witnessed
much corruption and possible illegal activity within Management.
2. I became aware that the majority of Management were Freemasons, or
members of similiar organizations.
3. I openly spoke about some hobby-related-research of mine that,
unexpectedly, proved a conenction to Freemasonry.
As to what I actually experienced, here's a few brief examples; tires
slashed, driver window painted, property damage, bizarre notes left on
my work desk, threatening phone calls, death threats, smear campaigns,
character assasination, co-workers inserting odd phrases into "normal"
conversation, people going out of their way to touch me on odd places
on my body (like the center of my back), Management/Co-Workers telling
me to "Kill Myself", etc..
I ended up being forced to quit my job, and even this didn't end the
harassment. I have lost my job, apartment, and vehicle as a result of
the Harassment.
In my time of need, one of the people I turned to was Catherine
Yronwode, because I knew she was knowledgeable on the topic of
Freemasonry. This was the biggest mistake of my life. I failed to
realize that as a Co-Mason, A Masonic-Like Organization which Cat
belongs to, she has taken certain vows to always protect the society at
all costs.
I actualy spoke on the phone with her for over 8 hours, during which
she down-played my experiences, told me I was "crazy", told the
witnesses who were there and who stand by me to this day that they were
also "crazy", and that the best thing I could do would be to become a
Freemason!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When I advised Ms. Yronwode that I would never join an organziation
that harrassed people, she indicated this would be the end of our
"acquaintance". From this time period on, she has treated me with
disrespect, downplayed any contribution to any forum or group we both
mutualy belong to, as well as spout lies concerning me.
As a result of our altercations, I have advised Ms. Yronwode that I
will not longer be recommending her shop, nor personaly shopping there
from now on.
Ms. Yronwode recently sent me a complimentary hard-cover book of the
Hoodoo Course she teaches and as an optimist, I felt Ms. Yronwode was
attempting to be friendly again. Well, I guess I was completely wrong.
What really pisses me off about Catherine Yronwode's behavior, is the
fact that she is a Jewish Woman. Gang Stalking has been carried out
against Jewish people by The KKK and other Aryan groups for a very long
time. Just how Catherine Yronwode manages to live with her own
hypocrisy, and the betrayel of her own race, is so far beyond me that I
will not even begin to speculate here.
Cat, you are filled with hatred and evil.
I'm tempted to pay the s/h to just return the damn book you sent me
just to prove a point.
-Jason
104
Didn't Richard Bandler earn a living in the 70's using NLP in
advertising? I've often wondered if some politicians are using some form
of NLP.
LuckyH.
104 wrote:
> Didn't Richard Bandler earn a living in the 70's using NLP in
> advertising? I've often wondered if some politicians are using some form
> of NLP.
It wouldn't suprise me in the slightest. What started out as NLP has
mutated into countless forms, with coutnless names. It also wouldn't
suprise me to learn that political groups/organizations are using NLP,
or another form of the practice, in order to control it's members as
well as sway the public.
-Jason
jackal...@hotmail.com
> Inmates, prior to his "LSD for Enlightenment" campaign?
I did know this, again via RAW. Although I must say you make it sound
if it was for the disadvantage of the inmates, whereas as far as I
understood it the tests were therapeutic in nature, to see if Leary
could stop them from re-offending. And he was succesfull, 80% didn't
reoffend. Hardly a piece of info to discredit Leary.
> When you get free time, try researching Project MKULTRA, various Mind
> Control studies of the CIA, as well as the connection betwee "New-Age"
> and the "CIA". I'm sure you will find material to shock and suprise
> you.
I shall do this, thanks for the info.
> Yes, I believe the link I provided on NLP above mentios this.
Sorry, couldn't find any such info from any of the links you've given.
> LOL....You are the one claiming that NLP is Magick. You are the only
> person that I am aware of to suggest this.
Fair enough but I was, I must say, being rather loose in my defintion
of NLP as magick. There are, we can say, 2 definite fields: NLP and
Magick, with their own definite histories and practices. When I say NLP
is Magick I'm not confusing the two definite backgrounds they have, eg
saying that 'evoking the Holy Guardian Angel' is part of NLP (which is
what you seemed to be saying) but rather broadening the definition of
Magick, to include what is traditionally conceived of as Magick and the
newer processes of NLP. I'm not of course being strict about this, I
don't expect anyone to adopt this new definition, but I think it offers
one a new way of looking at NLP. Anyway, Crowley couldn't have been
more broad in his definition of Magick when he said it is 'causing
change in conformity with one's will'. By this definition every action
is Magick.
> I don't think you understand what I am refering to. Individual People
> getting into NLP is one thing. However, the controversy of NLP is that
> Corporations are using is against their employeees, forcing it upon
> them.
I totally agree that NLP could be used to disastrous effect. Indeed as
a result of its usage we could end up with Clockwork Orange, 1984
scenarios, by that I mean people being changed in conformity with the
will of other people and not their own. This is a definite threat and
does need to be addressed within the field of NLP. But as I've already
said NLP is the tool not the agent. So rather than directing your
attack against NLP, which seems to me to be missing the culprit
entirely, rather attack the organisations using NLP in this way. It's
the same old argument: guns don't kill people, people kill people.
zootsoot
LuckyH.
jackal...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Did you know Timothy Leary was paid to perform tests of LSD on Prison
> > Inmates, prior to his "LSD for Enlightenment" campaign?
>
> I did know this, again via RAW. Although I must say you make it sound
> if it was for the disadvantage of the inmates,
Well, I'm sure the inmates had a blast, if that's what you mean. :)
> whereas as far as I
> understood it the tests were therapeutic in nature, to see if Leary
> could stop them from re-offending. And he was succesfull, 80% didn't
> reoffend. Hardly a piece of info to discredit Leary.
Uh...Wrong. Leary claimed an 80% success rate but never provided any
proof to validate such claim.
>
> > When you get free time, try researching Project MKULTRA, various Mind
> > Control studies of the CIA, as well as the connection betwee "New-Age"
> > and the "CIA". I'm sure you will find material to shock and suprise
> > you.
>
> I shall do this, thanks for the info.
>
> > Yes, I believe the link I provided on NLP above mentios this.
>
> Sorry, couldn't find any such info from any of the links you've given.
Try the verry first post. You will need to read/skim through the
wikipedia article on NLP.
I agree with the above, except that I don't buy into the belief that
NLP is a "tool". It's a Pseudo-Science, like Astrology, Palmistry,
etc.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not shooting down anybody who subscribes to
those beliefs, it's just that NLP is being promoted as something with a
strong scientific background, when it most definately is not.
I'm not only against the forcing of NLP "Mind Reformation" upon people,
but I am also against the Corporations who purchase such systems as
well.
-Jason
LuckyH.
> In Message-ID:<44C7CD0D...@luckymojo.com> posted on Wed, 26 Jul
> 2006 13:14:05 -0700, catherine yronwode wrote:
>
> > but, if you do reply to
> >the spammer, please break the cross-posting links, so that the stuff
> >will not propagate all over the known usenet landscape.
>
> I try to set a 'Followup To' to the one I do read. This tends to break
> the part of the thread I grabbed onto, yet not bypass someone who only
> reads one of the other groups.
>
> --
>
> Bart
One of things that a person who is being cyber-stalked can do in
usenet, is to make sure to quote a stalker's post. (Most cyber-stalkers
will choose not to have their post archived when replying in Usenet, in
an attempt to destroy any evidence trails) [Note: This does not mean
that
everyone who choose not to have their post archived is a stalker. A
stalker is defined by their behavior/actions.]
It's also important for a victim of cyber-stalking to check the profile
of a stalker. Most stalkers give themselves away by constantly
creating acocunts. A search of a suspected stalker will usualy show a
recently created account.
BTW, Catherine acts as if she hasn't cross-posted in the past. She
most definitately has, and has even done the same thing she now "wags
her finger" at me for doing. Also, interesting that she now refuses to
call me by name. Notice "The Poster in Question" in her reply..
Please! I've conversed with her online since 1999.
-Jason
nagasiva
> ...(1) NLP is not about lucky charms or worldwide folk-magic.
> (2) NLP is not a form of magic(k). ...
Bandler fashioned his books so as to position it in
consideration with occult topics in his original
book format and by use of his titles, particularly
Bandler, Richard & John Grinder (1975a).
[- The Structure of Magic I: A Book About
Language and Therapy]. Palo Alto,
CA: Science & Behavior Books.. 0831400447, -.
Bandler, Richard & John Grinder (1975b).
[- The Structure of Magic II: A Book About
Communication and Change]. PaloAlto,
CA: Science & Behavior Books.. ISBN 0831400498, -.
John Grinder, Richard Bandler (1976).
[- Frogs into Princes: Neuro Linguistic
Programming]. Science and Behavior Books.. -, -.
Moab, UT: Real People Press.. ISBN 0911226192, 194pp.
in particular. all three had psychedelic covers and they
featured wizards doing things with colourful powers,
including, in the last, transforming frogs into princes.
they were based in Palo Alto, not too far from me, and
as i encountered their books in the bookshop within the
holy city of Saint Joe, i repeatedly looked it over to
find it out why it was being placed in the 'occult' or
'religiomagic' section, repeatedly deciding that it did
no fit and was a kind of bait-and-switch promotional.
I'd compare how Hermetic magicians attempt to usurp all
of magic under their umbrella to fulfill their mystical
aims and relegate the rest to 'superstition' or worse:
the NLP people were attempting to fit 'magic' into the
category of therapy and language, at least, if not
subsume all of magic to its corpusculent pride.
every time i asked an NLP advocate why they called
it magic, they didn't give me a coherent answer.
luckymojo.com@nagasiva
LuckyH.
I was google-ing NLP last night and came across a quote from a
psychologist who claimed "NLP [as used by employers] is nothing more
than Corporate Scientology". Don't you know I now can't find the site.
Does this quote ring a bell for anybody, especialy with regards to the
name of the psychologist?
-Jason
LuckyH.
catherine yronwode wrote:
> I agree, Cyli. Also, to take this to a meta-discussion level, i think
> that a strange set of newsgroups was selected for cross-posting, which
> will result in very little light being shed on the subject. Reasons i
> say this: (1) NLP is not about lucky charms or worldwide folk-magic. (2)
> NLP is not a form of magic(k). (3) NLP is not a crime. (4) NLP is not a
> true crime. So ... it's off-topic for all 4 groups.
NagaSiva & others provided the links between "magic" and NLP.
Meanwhile, I just uncovered a conenction that will make it ON-TOPIC for
alt.crime, alt.true.crime, and alt.true-crime, as I originaly intended.
It seems Richard Bandler, of "The Bandler Method" of NLP, was arrested
and tried for the murder of a prostitute in 1986. He was not
convicted, but many people are convinced he got away with murder.
-Jason
LuckyH.
FrankB wrote:
> LuckyH. wrote, a écrit, schreef, escribio in alt.magick,
> <1153870088....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> :
>
> > NLP, short for Neuro-Lingquistic Programming,
>
>
>
>
> --
> leave a message after the beep
Yay! It's Frank!
-Jason
Miko Roktska (Mike Rock)
LuckyH. wrote:
> NLP, short for Neuro-Lingquistic Programming, is a
> Pseudo-Scientific/New-Age form of "Mind Reformation", a.k.a. Mind
> Control, which is gaining popularity amongst Corporations,
> Fraternities, Societies, and Orders. Psychologists have denounced the
> practice as being harmful to the psyche and have made accusations of
> practioners belonging to a "Cult". When criticism began spreading
> concerning the practice of NLP, many of it's popular proponents simply
> re-named the practice and again began to sell such systems to
> Corporations, Fraternities, Orders, etc.
>
> This is some scary stuff folks. Many victims claim their Employer is
> using such tactics to "destroy and rebuild" them in the fashion they
> deem proper. Many people have come forward claiming the were forced to
> convert to the religious ideals of the people operating NLP at their
> places of employment, and far worse.
>
> Neuro-Lingquistic Programming
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming
>
> Psychotechnology Research Institue
> (Bastards Selling Mind Control Systems to Corporations Specificly to be
> Used on Employees. Don't believe me? Read the first page, then click
> on the link for "Human Resources")
> http://int.psycor.ru/main.php?smir
>
> "BE INFORMED"
>
> -Jason
Well. Jason. Bless Your Heart.
NLP is a fundamental basis of the Magical art of Illumination as they
call it in Chaos Magic. One of the great things about learning it is
that it exposes the manipulations that are all around us in the media
and from government etc. It is a set of tools that is self-empowering.
Of course someone as fearful and ignorant as you would never try to get
some first hand experience, but for those with more open minds I would
start with the books by Bandler and Grinder that started it all like
Frogs Into Princes, The Structure of Magic, and so forth.
All NLP is, is a set of methods for modeling excellence in any human
activity. Any human activity. They take what the top performers in a
field do and model it so that anyone else can do the same thing. It
just so happens that the early models were mostly around
communications, and they modeled people like Virginia Satir and Milton
Erickson.
The techniques are incredibly suble and powerful for self-change.. that
some individuals don't really "get it" or try to use it for clumsy or
misguided aims is too bad, but doesn't make it a "cult".. go look up
"cult" please Jason, and resources like the Advanced Bonewits Cult
Danger Evaluation Frame http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html
There is no hierarchy of priests lording over the masses in NLP, and
driving Caddies while the peons walk barefoot, just a lot of dedicated
pioneers seeking to improve the individual human condition. Nobody
profits at anyone else's expense. There is no religious ideal or aspect
to NLP in any way. None. The very notion is laughable. While I can see
where some thoughtful people might react this way to Landmark Education
and the Forum (of which I am also a graduate) -- the very notion that
NLP, which is nothing but a collection of techniques and not an
organization, could be a "religion" is so laughable I don't think I'm
going to be able to get up from laughing for days.
I've been through NLP training myself and it gave me some of the most
powerful tools I've ever experienced. One of the first principles of
magic is if you want change to occur, you first must change in some
way. I've used this stuff to deliver superior customer service on the
phone and in writing, to move past the past, to negotiate with inner
"demons" (only they get called "parts" per Satir) to create win-win
solutions.. and that is the the entire philosophy behind NLP in a
nutshell is win-win. If there is no win-win occurring it is not NLP, it
is a sloppy imitation. Every person brings their own ethic ultimately
to whatever they do however.
The best primer on NLP ever written for a popular audience IMO is
Unlimited Power by Tony Robbins (the rest can be a little more
esoteric) -- and the power described in the title is the classic Power
>From Within -- the same PFW that Starhawk discusses in Spiral Dance and
other works.
Of course some "psychologists" would denounce what they don't
understand, never studied, only know about from hearsay, and what seems
to get excellent results in minutes where their "talk therapy" and
other crap just talks people in circles and in and out of their office
paying fees for years. Seems like they would be the high priests
protecting their own turf from the more effective sorcerers and magi in
this scenario. (not to say I've never benefitted from verbal talking
out with a counselor, but each thing has a place.)
Seriously your ignorant raving here just makes you into a sheepish
shill for the Establishment.. yeah and marijuana makes people go crazy,
it has no medical value and must be destroyed, there were WMD in Iraq
and Saddam was an ally of Osama bin Laden, blah blah..
And what else have They been lying about:
Mystic mushrooms spawn magic event
Findings could lead to treatments for addiction, depression
http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/07/10/psychedelic.research.ap/index.html
Oh actually this is much much better:
Mark Morford - God Is In The Magic Mushrooms
This just in: Psychedelic drugs could be very good for your mind,
heart, soul. Can you believe?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2006/08/04/notes080406.DTL
NLP teaches the subjective structure of consciousness.. and the one
thing it gives is choices.. one of the fundamental "working
assumptions" of NLP is "Choice is better than no choice." (you see
there are no dogmas in NLP, only practical presuppositions that are
stated and known as such).
This makes NLP as a body of knowledge, a friend of humanity, a gift
from Prometheus the Lightbringer.
Those who seek to remove or obscure or turn people away from more
choices are the servants of the False God.
Are you on the side of Humanity, Jason?
If we are going to quote Wikipedia (ahem -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmHm0rGns4I ) here is a really good
article IMO:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principles_of_NLP
"NLP does not recognize any ultimate mediator in the structure and
organization of subjective human thought except the senses, sensory
representations, and human neurology and physiology."
"...core NLP, as originally formulated, consists of strategies for
information gathering, flexibility, and problem finding, problem
shaping and problem solving in the realm of human life and living."
"NLP is sometimes described as an empirical epistemology. That is, it
is a way of knowing whose evidence is experiment and observation,
rather than results derived from some overall theory. It is eclectic,
that is, it draws heavily on results from other fields if felt useful,
and acts as a "toolbox" [REF] in the sense that it is silent as to any
pre-specified purpose or application, leaving that ultimately to the
end user(s) to decide. As such, it studies processes (or form), rather
than content.
Its approach and philosophy have also been described as closer to a
technology than a science, and often identified as similar to
engineering, in the sense that its question is "what works" rather than
"what is true". Its ultimate end products are, ideally, systematized
models and utilizable approaches, rather than beliefs or facts."
A listing of some of the core presuppositions of NLP (most mentioned in
the article and described):
The map is not the territory
Behind every behavior is a positive intention
Rapport
There is no failure, only feedback
Choice is better than no choice (and flexibility is the way one gets
choice)
The meaning of your communication is the response you get
People already have all the resources they need to succeed
Multiple descriptions are better than one
**
So the question one might ask oneself could be something like:
Will I, in knowledge and at choice, structure my own consciousness
consciously?
Or will I, in ignorance and therefore passively, be structured by my
environment and other people? Other people who may know more than I do
about my own mind?
Will I be a sheep nuzzling the grass and the dirt with the herd waiting
to be fleeced and slaughtered to feed the Fat Man and his
(profits/prophets), or will I be an eagle climbing above the Earth with
the horizon as the only limit to vision and flight?
A recent article in ARTHUR magazine (
http://www.arthurmag.com/store/index.php?ID=29 ) highlights the
importance of this question:
SIGILS, LOGOS & LUCKY CHARMS: how to recognize them and use them. By
the Center for Tactical Magic (http://www.tacticalmagic.org/).
I imagine this question is also closely tied up (vincula - get it?) in
courses such as Chris Warnock's Mass Magic Course:
http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/massmagiccourse.html
And I'd be very remiss if I did not mention Noam Chomsky and his work
in Manufacturing Consent:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0375714499/
Although I know its one thing to say "Fly! Be Free!" when holding a
feathery bird in the hand and another when, like in the Mork and Mindy
show, what's being tossed up is still but an egg.
Nanu nanu Jason.
- mike
Miko Roktska (Mike Rock)
LuckyH. wrote:
>
> LOL....You are the one claiming that NLP is Magick. You are the only
> person that I am aware of to suggest this.
>
And that tells us... that you don't know anything about NLP and how
little you are actually "aware" of in that hermetically sealed little
world of yours (I swear reading your stuff is like watching Bill
O'Reilly and other FOX NEWS trash).. because one of the very first
books in print on the topic was titled:
The Structure of Magic: A Book About Language and Therapy
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0831400447/
This title is not an accident.
Mike
Miko Roktska (Mike Rock)
jackal...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I totally agree that NLP could be used to disastrous effect. Indeed as
> a result of its usage we could end up with Clockwork Orange, 1984
> scenarios, by that I mean people being changed in conformity with the
> will of other people and not their own. This is a definite threat and
> does need to be addressed within the field of NLP.
GNOTHI SEAUTON
The best defense is for everyone to know and have competence its
content, which is why pro-establishment types might want it suppressed.
"Choice is better than no choice."
"The most flexible element in a system governs the system."
Mike
Miko Roktska (Mike Rock)
Great post nagasiva.. some of the techniques have made their way into
Reclaiming via Starhawk and others, although Star did not get them via
NLP (I asked her), she got them from her psychotherapy training.. a la
Virginia Satir and Milton Erickson as I mentioned up above as a main
source for Bandler and Grinder's original modeling.
If one definition of magic is "change in conformity with will", by
understanding the structure of experience, one is able to experience
choices about that experience, which leads to flexibility, which leads
to change, directed with will. This is not absolute, some changes
require inner negotiation and compromises, but still change occurs that
can be for the better, in terms of the overall subjective experience of
the subject.
Hmm this may still be muddy, but it's 5 in the morning.
- Mike
LuckyH.
You don't get it and you never will. RE-READ Shiva's post. He does
not subscribe to the belief that NLP is magick.
-Jason
LuckyH.
Miko Roktska (Mike Rock) wrote:
Thanks mike for the reminder of your level of ignorance.
-Jason
LuckyH.
Miko Roktska (Mike Rock) wrote:
No need for false pretences, especialy sense you repeat the above
phrase in nearly every post you direct at me.
>
> NLP is a fundamental basis of the Magical art of Illumination as they
> call it in Chaos Magic. One of the great things about learning it is
> that it exposes the manipulations that are all around us in the media
> and from government etc. It is a set of tools that is self-empowering.
> Of course someone as fearful and ignorant as you would never try to get
> some first hand experience, but for those with more open minds I would
> start with the books by Bandler and Grinder that started it all like
> Frogs Into Princes, The Structure of Magic, and so forth.
Wow, let us bask in the light of Mike!
>
> All NLP is, is a set of methods for modeling excellence in any human
> activity. Any human activity. They take what the top performers in a
> field do and model it so that anyone else can do the same thing. It
> just so happens that the early models were mostly around
> communications, and they modeled people like Virginia Satir and Milton
> Erickson.
>
> The techniques are incredibly suble and powerful for self-change.. that
> some individuals don't really "get it" or try to use it for clumsy or
> misguided aims is too bad, but doesn't make it a "cult".. go look up
> "cult" please Jason, and resources like the Advanced Bonewits Cult
> Danger Evaluation Frame http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html
Dumbass, it wasn't I who called NLP a cult, it was the psychologists
who are critical of the practice.
>
> There is no hierarchy of priests lording over the masses in NLP, and
> driving Caddies while the peons walk barefoot, just a lot of dedicated
> pioneers seeking to improve the individual human condition. Nobody
> profits at anyone else's expense. There is no religious ideal or aspect
> to NLP in any way. None. The very notion is laughable. While I can see
> where some thoughtful people might react this way to Landmark Education
> and the Forum (of which I am also a graduate) -- the very notion that
> NLP, which is nothing but a collection of techniques and not an
> organization, could be a "religion" is so laughable I don't think I'm
> going to be able to get up from laughing for days.
Are you on meds? -There might be an explanation to your insane
laughter.
(Splash!) The sound of Mike jumping off the deep end.
>
> And what else have They been lying about:
>
> Mystic mushrooms spawn magic event
> Findings could lead to treatments for addiction, depression
> http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/07/10/psychedelic.research.ap/index.html
LOL....What next? Gonna make a connection involving the Queen of
England?
>
>
> Oh actually this is much much better:
>
> Mark Morford - God Is In The Magic Mushrooms
> This just in: Psychedelic drugs could be very good for your mind,
> heart, soul. Can you believe?
> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2006/08/04/notes080406.DTL
>
>
> NLP teaches the subjective structure of consciousness.. and the one
> thing it gives is choices.. one of the fundamental "working
> assumptions" of NLP is "Choice is better than no choice." (you see
> there are no dogmas in NLP, only practical presuppositions that are
> stated and known as such).
>
> This makes NLP as a body of knowledge, a friend of humanity, a gift
> from Prometheus the Lightbringer.
>
> Those who seek to remove or obscure or turn people away from more
> choices are the servants of the False God.
>
> Are you on the side of Humanity, Jason?
ROTFLMAO....... I will answer that question when I am convinced you are
human.
>
> If we are going to quote Wikipedia (ahem -
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmHm0rGns4I ) here is a really good
> article IMO:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principles_of_NLP
>
> "NLP does not recognize any ultimate mediator in the structure and
> organization of subjective human thought except the senses, sensory
> representations, and human neurology and physiology."
Who cares?
That's you language, not mine. I must warn you. I have pepper-spray.
-Jason
>
> - mike