cutting vintage VW keys to code, what do i need?
Stephen White
Sorry to ask another question, but i cannot seem to figure out just what
i need to do this. It will be a Part-time business (avocation really) so
i dont want to spend a whole lot...
What i _think_ i need, correct me if im wrong.
* code book for volkswagens (anything published after 1979 would do)
* code cutter
Here is where i get confused. I know that 2 sided keys started in 1964,
so i'll need to be able to do those, but that there are ways to do those
with a 1 sided cutter (takes more time but may save me expense in the
initial purchase of a code gun)
Where i get confused is what code dials/carriages etc. are neccecary...
no sense for me to shop around for a good used cutter and end up with 10X
the stuff i want or need...
anyone here that can offer assistance?
thanks,
Steve
--
***************************************************************************
a whole gaggle of volkswagens, None for sale.
75 yamaha for sale: http://webusers.anet-stl.com/~spw/75xs650.htm
(or trade for good VW stuff or a minibike/scooter)
***************************************************************************
http://webusers.anet-stl.com/~spw
Roger Shoaf
By the time you buy all of the gear to accomplish the task, you will
probably spend more than you will save. Why don't you just make a deal with
your local locksmith to sell you the keys wholesale? You are probably
talking about at least $750 to get set up as you describe.
--
Roger Shoaf
--reply address contains a riddle to separate those who can from those who
can't.
Stephen White <s...@users.anet-stl.com> wrote in message
news:95738675...@news.accessus.net...
Stephen White
> Stephen,
> By the time you buy all of the gear to accomplish the task, you will
> probably spend more than you will save. Why don't you just make a deal with
> your local locksmith to sell you the keys wholesale? You are probably
> talking about at least $750 to get set up as you describe.
well,
I guess i was hoping to find out exactly what was needed... that way if i
run into something that will work out well, and is inexpensive, i can know
to buy it. But if i dont know what is needed, and i see something in my
price range, i will have no idea if it is money thrown away or a great
deal..
for example, a 60's vintage code cutter went for $60 on ebay recently.. if
i knew what was needed to cut vw keys, i might have bought it as it might
have done what i need it to do. (as anything pre 80 is my main focus,
newer stuff would be a bonus, but not neccecary.)
I have a few friends that have run into curtis 14 code cutters cheap, i
probably wont get the deal they did, but it cant hurt to keep my eyes
open. And if i knew which acessories were needed to cut VW keys, then i
could ask pertinent questions to see if what they are selling would work
for me.
thanks a lot,
"Keyman"
Ya might try talking to your local Locksmith and let him help you
make a list of what you will need.
Just figure out exactly which VW's you are going to make keys
for.
This link has Curtis Clipper supplies.
http://www.hawleylock.com/
If you are just going to duplicate key then all ya need is a
duplicating machine.
Ilco and Curtis make good duplicators.
--
"Keyman"
"Stephen White" <s...@users.anet-stl.com> wrote in message
news:95739944...@news.accessus.net...
"Keyman"
--
"Keyman"
"--Shiva--" <shiv...@pcis.net> wrote in message
news:8eqmjr$iab$0...@63.78.119.16...
> Hawley Lock, gets in Curtis 14 cutters now and then... he has
a
> web site, but, you would be better finding it, and emailing
him,
> as its a somewhat restricted site...
> dont have the address in front of me, but perhaps a search
would
> find it.
Stephen White
> Stephen,
> Ya might try talking to your local Locksmith and let him help you
> make a list of what you will need.
> Just figure out exactly which VW's you are going to make keys
> for.
> This link has Curtis Clipper supplies.
> http://www.hawleylock.com/
Hui keyman,
thanks for the link :)
> If you are just going to duplicate key then all ya need is a
> duplicating machine.
> Ilco and Curtis make good duplicators.
i have already purchased a duplicator. I got a good deal on a used Keil
machine. I had to adjust it as it was cutting the keys too deep, but now
it makes pretty accurate copies. (my girlfriend had a key that was cut too
much and i overadjusted the cutter to fix her key.. my copies work better
than her "wal mart" duplicate of the now lost original.)
The cutting wheel is a bit dull and chipped. What is the difference
between a RF cutter and an MC cutter and which would work best should i
have to cut steel blanks occasionally? (old volkswagen keys are steel, if
i have OEM blanks i will have to cut steel...)
I would like to code cut keys as many old volkswagens have only 3rd
generation copies or worse and work marginally at best. I also would love
to offer keying for people who have lost their keys altogether.
take care,
Steve
--
***************************************************************************
Roger Shoaf
> The cutting wheel is a bit dull and chipped. What is the difference
> between a RF cutter and an MC cutter and which would work best should i
> have to cut steel blanks occasionally? (old volkswagen keys are steel, if
> i have OEM blanks i will have to cut steel...)
RF stands for rotary file, cheap but slow and has a short life cycle.
MC stands for milling cutter, longer duty cycle, bigger initial expense,
long run economy better as you can have them reground.
In order to cut steel you need to adjust your machine so that the cutter is
turning at the appropriate speed (will be much slower). Or if you can find
a carbide blade (Even more expensive, but stays sharp longer, unless some
inexperienced person slips and chips the blade...) the speed might be OK.
But the first question is why do you want to use steel blanks?
Steel is harder than the brass tumblers in the lock, and it is harder than
the pot metal the lock is cast from. Do you really want to induce
additional wear just because the blanks look cool? Which is easier to
replace, the locks or the keys?
Roger Shoaf
> For about $1500, give or take, you can get a Framon #2... and
> unless you do some modifying, including a cutter, you CANNOT cut
> steel keys with it.
Sure you can, if you spring for a carbide cutter or slow down the HSS cutter
to the appropriate SFM. You drill holes in steel with a HSS drill bit dont
you?
Rick
I suggest some degree of training is needed. If you make a mistake and a
key gets stuck in someone's lock, your whole day's income may be forfiet to
pay someone to remove a key so your very upset customer can drive his
vintage car home. Local hardware stores provide me with regular business
from mis-cut keys. Also, the curtis equipment is useless if you don't have a
code #, or alternatively, the ability to sight-read a given key, which is a
learned skill and will cost many, yes, very many key blanks to acquire.
Curtis does offer a "decoder scale" to assist with this, but reliability of
this device is reduced with worn keys. The vehicle code can be found on all
VW models, I believe, but the locks may have been rekeyed, so that won't
always help, and of course some disassembly will be required. The VW code
series I recall include: xxKxxx, xxLxxx, xxMxxx, xxRxxx, VBxxxx, VHxxxx.
You will need to acquire code books for those and more. I don't think the
Curtis #14 or #15 is really designed to cut keys made of steel, so you can
expect it to wear out fast. I'm not sure, but I think the #14 was
discontinued before the VB and VH series VW locks came out on the market, so
the cam and carriage will not be available. Conversely, I don't think my #15
has cam and carriage for the K, L, M, or R series. You may have to get one
of each.
Stephen White wrote in message <95739944...@news.accessus.net>...
>Roger Shoaf <sh...@nospamsyix.com> wrote:
>> Stephen,
>
>> By the time you buy all of the gear to accomplish the task, you will
>> probably spend more than you will save. Why don't you just make a deal
with
>> your local locksmith to sell you the keys wholesale? You are probably
>> talking about at least $750 to get set up as you describe.
>
>well,
>
that way if i
>run into something that will work out well, and is inexpensive, i can know
>to buy it. But if i dont know what is needed, and i see something in my
>price range, i will have no idea if it is money thrown away or a great
>deal..
>
>for example, a 60's vintage code cutter went for $60 on ebay recently.. if
>i knew what was needed to cut vw keys, i might have bought it as it might
>have done what i need it to do. (as anything pre 80 is my main focus,
>newer stuff would be a bonus, but not neccecary.)
>
>I have a few friends that have run into curtis 14 code cutters cheap, i
>probably wont get the deal they did, but it cant hurt to keep my eyes
>open. And if i knew which acessories were needed to cut VW keys, then i
>could ask pertinent questions to see if what they are selling would work
>for me.
>
>thanks a lot,
>
Stephen White
> In order to cut steel you need to adjust your machine so that the cutter is
> turning at the appropriate speed (will be much slower). Or if you can find
> a carbide blade (Even more expensive, but stays sharp longer, unless some
> inexperienced person slips and chips the blade...) the speed might be OK.
very cool, thats what i needed to know :) will too high a speed with the
MC cutter damage the cutter or cause problems with the keys?
> But the first question is why do you want to use steel blanks?
> Steel is harder than the brass tumblers in the lock, and it is harder than
> the pot metal the lock is cast from. Do you really want to induce
> additional wear just because the blanks look cool? Which is easier to
> replace, the locks or the keys?
dunno why VW did it that way, but all their keys are steel. With vintage
car enthusiasts being the way they are, many insist on factory blanks.
I'd want to offer that service, but if it was cost-prohibitive thats okay
too.
Roger Shoaf
> very cool, thats what i needed to know :) will too high a speed with the
> MC cutter damage the cutter or cause problems with the keys?
Smoke the cutter.
>
> > But the first question is why do you want to use steel blanks?
> > Steel is harder than the brass tumblers in the lock, and it is harder
than
> > the pot metal the lock is cast from. Do you really want to induce
> > additional wear just because the blanks look cool? Which is easier to
> > replace, the locks or the keys?
>
> dunno why VW did it that way, but all their keys are steel.
Most german cars are like that sweedish cars also. Porsche is the exception
(most of the time). When I have disassembled the locks, the tumblers have
had notches worn into them.
With vintage
> car enthusiasts being the way they are, many insist on factory blanks.
> I'd want to offer that service, but if it was cost-prohibitive thats okay
> too.
>
Try the speach about a set of locks cost $XXX.xx a key cost $X.xx, which
would you rather wear out and have to replace? When they talk about German
enginering remind them about May 6, 1936 The Hindenburg went KA-BOOM!
In my experience VW "enthusiasts" are a little goofy. I had an apprentice
that thought that bugs were the worlds greatest cars, he spent all his spare
time working on them, hot rodding them etc. It appeared it was a good thing
they were easy to work on because he spent so much time doing it. I lost
count of how many motors he blew.
For simplicity I am a big fan of the Dodge Dart or Plymouth Valliant with
the slant 6. Easy to work on, but they don't give you much opportunity as
they are virtully bullet proof.
Roger Shoaf
Assume that you can get setup to cut code keys, how many will you have to
make to break even? Now compare this cost to getting setup to rebuild carbs
or starters. I think you will get a bigger bang for the buck with the
latter.
--
Roger Shoaf
--reply address contains a riddle to separate those who can from those who
can't.
Stephen White <s...@users.anet-stl.com> wrote in message
news:95750614...@news.accessus.net...
Matthew T. Russotto
Roger Shoaf <sh...@nospamsyix.com> wrote:
}
}
}For simplicity I am a big fan of the Dodge Dart or Plymouth Valliant with
}the slant 6. Easy to work on, but they don't give you much opportunity as
}they are virtully bullet proof.
You're a sick man.
I used to drive a Dodge Aspen Wagon with the slant 6. Engine was
fine... it's just that everything else around it fell apart. Not much
opportunity to work on it because it was broken by design.
ObLock:
The ignition lock never failed. The door locks were another story.
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."
Stephen White
> Steven,
> Assume that you can get setup to cut code keys, how many will you have to
> make to break even? Now compare this cost to getting setup to rebuild carbs
> or starters. I think you will get a bigger bang for the buck with the
> latter.
Oh thats true, im already setup to rebuild most anything on a volkswagen
except the transmission. (and im working on that...)
I just have always been fascinated by locks... im the only guy i know that
can pick locks and started reading books on locks when i was a kid
(fascinated with houdini..)
I guess its just a curiosity and fun thing as much as a business... if i
dont break even thats okay, but i think i will.. If i cant find used code
equipment cheap i'll just play with my cutter machine. Since i only have
$40 in it so far, it wont take long to break even on that.
take care,
Stephen White
> Sure you can, if you spring for a carbide cutter or slow down the HSS cutter
> to the appropriate SFM. You drill holes in steel with a HSS drill bit dont
> you?
Hello,
I am figuring this is easy to figure out... what i do is take the spindle
speed of the motor and work aout an equation to figoure out what size
pulleys i need to make the spindle at the cutter the appropriate RPM...
Would anyone have this number?
That way if a steel key needs to be cut, i can merely swap the pulley at
the motor for a smaller one and be ready to cut the steel.. (the spindle
pulley is trapped by the wire wheel... so it'd be best to do the math so
the motor one is the one that changes.)
Stephen White
> I suggest some degree of training is needed. If you make a mistake and a
> key gets stuck in someone's lock, your whole day's income may be forfiet to
> pay someone to remove a key so your very upset customer can drive his
> vintage car home. Local hardware stores provide me with regular business
well,
On 60% of old VW's you can have the lock removed and disassembled within
10 minutes or so. Why would i have to call someone to do this when i can?
(worse comes to worse i have several spare ignition cylinders i could
rekey to their profile and install instead.)
The other 40% its not too hard to do either, but not a 10 minute job... it
involves some column disassembly, drilling a small hole (specified in
shop manuals that i own. I have one for most VW's), and pushing out
the cyl. I have one of these newer columns out of a junker to practice
on. I plan to do that.
Roger Shoaf
Matthew T. Russotto <russ...@wanda.vf.pond.com> wrote in message
news:87AQ4.4672$LM4.3...@monger.newsread.com...
> I used to drive a Dodge Aspen Wagon with the slant 6. Engine was
> fine... it's just that everything else around it fell apart. Not much
> opportunity to work on it because it was broken by design.
>
I still have a 64 Valliant. No rust, paid $300 and in six years of this car
as my daily driver I put in brakes, a battery, a set of tires, a voltage
relay and a front seat I got out of a junk yard. I still own the car but
with about 300k it is down to fireing on 3 cyls, and the rear springs need
replacement. all in all I think I got my moneys worth, especially when you
compare that to car payments. <shuddering as he types>
> The ignition lock never failed. The door locks were another story.
The door locks last a lot longer if you give them a little shot of graphite
once in a while. The door locks on my 64 are getting a little tired but
what the heck they did good for there age.
DH
set of depth keys and just use your existing machine. Not quite as
easy, but very cheap. If you can't get a few sets of depth and spacing
keys easily, I am sure someone here like myself or many others
could make you some. If someone had to make them for you, I would
say around $5 per key would be fair plus shipping. By the way,
someone on e-bay is specializing in selling space and depth keys
fairly cheaply. You might want to check there and contact him. That
would probably be the cheapest.
Dennis
Rick
>On 60% of old VW's you can have the lock removed and disassembled within
>10 minutes or so. Why would i have to call someone to do this when i can?
>(worse comes to worse i have several spare ignition cylinders i could
>rekey to their profile and install instead.)
>
>The other 40% its not too hard to do either, but not a 10 minute job... it
>involves some column disassembly, drilling a small hole (specified in
>shop manuals that i own. I have one for most VW's), and pushing out
>the cyl. I have one of these newer columns out of a junker to practice
>on. I plan to do that.
>
Sounds like you have it covered. The questions you were asking seemed to
indicate some lack of knowledge of what you were undertaking. It's good that
you are able to do rekeys -that contributes a lot to your ability to read
keys if you plan to go with the Curtis equipment. Have you heard of
Pak-a-punch? Getting a reliable set of depth keys is a good option. :)
Stephen White wrote in message <95754597...@news.accessus.net>...
>Rick <ric...@home.com> wrote:
>> I suggest some degree of training is needed. If you make a mistake
and a
>> key gets stuck in someone's lock, your whole day's income may be forfiet
to
>> pay someone to remove a key so your very upset customer can drive his
>> vintage car home. Local hardware stores provide me with regular business
>
>well,