Weslock question.
Mike C
I just recently graduated from FB and the course was way too easy but im
sure most of you know this and I don't consider myself a locksmith as yet.
But I have also been reading as many books as I can. I also subscribe to
The National Locksmith Magazine so I can learn as much stuff as I can.
I have been installing locks for a while now since I have worked with my dad
in construction and have re-keyed mostly Schlage locks in a small apartment
complex that my dad owns.
One of my mom's friends just bought a house and she wants me to re-key it
for her but all her locks are Weslocks. Key in knob and the deadbolts.
I have the TNL Guide: Door Lock Encyclopedia and Steven Young's tape Basic
Locksmithing but neither one has any information on Weslocks.
So is there anything I need to know that is special about taking these locks
apart?
Any special tools and such? Are they similar to any of the other locks that
I may have information on?
I know I can do this because I have taken locks apart before without any
info, but It would be nice to know if I'm going to run into any trouble.
Thanks!
Mike C
Roger Shoaf
might crush some springs.
You might need a shim if you don't have the right follower.
--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.
"Mike C" <no-spam@prospect1999@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:402db715$1...@127.0.0.1...
Glen Cooper
the keyway, Kwikset, Titan, Defiant, Dexter, Weiser, 50 or 60 after market
spin offs and such, then you should have no problem. Knock em out, have fun
and dont forget to charge for what you do or your family and friends will
always bug you when you get good and better at what you do. :-))
\
"Roger Shoaf" <sh...@nospamsyix.com> wrote in message
news:10767388...@jaguar.syix.com...
JOCK tec
no spam
to tighten the screw to tight. Check it BEFORE you put it back on the door.
Short top pins can be a real pain..
If I remember right you cant use a KW1 key with a #1 cut. My pin kit doesn't
have bottom pins that short. If you use westlock keys you wont have a
problem
"Mike C" <no-spam@prospect1999@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:402db715$1...@127.0.0.1...
Mike C
I got from FB right now. But I will make one the right size on my lathe
before I do the job if I have to.
Or use a plastic tube split to fit over the follower I have to make up the
difference.
Also what I did to save money to start with to just get the Lab refill kit
and put all the pins in one of those plastic drawer things. So I don't have
the pinning charts that would come with a kit. I have some charts that are
in Bill Phillips book on locksmithing but it doesn't have one on Weslock. So
I did a search on the net and found a chart but it didn't have the sizes of
the driver pins. So I kept looking and I found that out on another website.
If this info is right, It shows 2 sizes of driver pins. .187 and .219.
Since I have the Lab universal pins, the closest I can come to this is .185
or .189 for the first one. and the second one I would have to use a bottom
pin turned upside down or just use the last top pin it has which is.200. I
hope this will work out ok.
Glen thanks for the support but I feel this is a learning experience for me
and don't feel comfortable charging for my work. I will charge something to
cover my cost of parts but that's about if for now.
Also the only family members I have are my mom and dad and I can't charge
them because they paid for my FB course. LOL
Again thanks for the help!
Mike C
Mike C
if you wanted to.
But then I am just a beginner so I don't really know.
Mike C
"JOCK tec" <joc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040214022854...@mb-m22.aol.com...
Stormin Mormon
rotate the cap off the back of the plug.
The knob locks are unique, never seen anything like them on any other brand.
You have to depress the retainer, pull the inside knob off. Loosen two
screws along side the knob, and rotate (left) the inner plate. Outside door
knob comes off. In the center of the assembly (back center of the cylinder)
there is a small phillips screw. Remove the screw, and the cylinder comes
out.
Careful... there is no retaining clip on the plug, don't have the key in the
lock while taking the small screw out.
Needs a hollow tube follower, like the ones in the HPC set.
Zero cut on the key takes .155 bottom pin, which is smaller than my Lab
pinset stocks. Have to file the tumblers a bit to make them fit.
--
Christopher A. Young
Jesus: The Reason for the Season
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com
"Mike C" <no-spam@prospect1999@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:402db715$1...@127.0.0.1...
Stormin Mormon
--
Christopher A. Young
Jesus: The Reason for the Season
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com
"Roger Shoaf" <sh...@nospamsyix.com> wrote in message
news:10767388...@jaguar.syix.com...
Stormin Mormon
only setup keys from another brand, that Weslock "can" be keyed to work on
the other brands of key? It's not a perfect match but....
--
Christopher A. Young
Jesus: The Reason for the Season
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com
"Glen Cooper" <g.e.c...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:2njXb.16835$hR.5...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Stormin Mormon
Weslock. Weiser, and some of the imports.
--
Christopher A. Young
Jesus: The Reason for the Season
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com
"JOCK tec" <joc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040214022854...@mb-m22.aol.com...
Stormin Mormon
the plug sticks out in an odd shape, and so you need a hollow end to match
up the back of the plug.
When you're selecting driver pins, key up the plug, and take the key out.
Choose top pins long enough (try them in the holes) so that they fill the
rest of the pin hole with about .060 or .070 sticking out the top of the
plug.
You're right not to charge them if they paid for your course.
--
Christopher A. Young
Jesus: The Reason for the Season
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com
"Mike C" <no-spam@prospect1999@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:402dd...@127.0.0.1...
Stormin Mormon
between where the shoulder and first Kwikky cut would be.
Titan also has a recessed (far back) lower shoulder, and the top shoulder is
a bit more skinny.
--
Christopher A. Young
Jesus: The Reason for the Season
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com
"Mike C" <no-spam@prospect1999@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:402dd3e7$1...@127.0.0.1...
'Key
in message
news:c0l9uk$188pfp$3...@ID-216852.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Glen, I am not sure what you're saying. I think you're
saying that if he has
> only setup keys from another brand, that Weslock "can" be
keyed to work on
> the other brands of key? It's not a perfect match but....
>
> --
>
> Christopher A. Young
> Jesus: The Reason for the Season
> www.lds.org
> www.mormons.com
personally,
I would (file-13) the weslock and replace with a better
brand.
my2¢
--
"Key"
'Key
a dial caliber would be a good investment.
(try harbor tool)
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=5647
or tiny url
http://tinyurl.com/2gyj6
you can insert the new key use the dial caliber to mic the
dept of the bottom pin size you need.
g'luck
--
"Key"
'Key
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61-#spamblock*-@hotmail.com> wrote
in message
news:c0l9ug$188pfp$1...@ID-216852.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Weslock deadbolts key up about the same as Schlage or
Arrow. Depress pin,
> rotate the cap off the back of the plug.
>
> The knob locks are unique, never seen anything like them
on any other brand.
> You have to depress the retainer, pull the inside knob
off. Loosen two
> screws along side the knob, and rotate (left) the inner
plate. Outside door
> knob comes off. In the center of the assembly (back center
of the cylinder)
> there is a small phillips screw. Remove the screw, and the
cylinder comes
> out.
the ones I have seen has a flat head screw instead of a
phillips.
my2
--
"Key"
Roger Shoaf
TITAN
I beg to differ here. Titan was designed to be cross compatible with
Kwikset. If you want to key a Kwikset to a Titan key all you need to do is
to ignore the first cut.
If you are keying a Titan to a Kwikset key you drop the 6th pin.
Roger Shoaf
> Roger, thanks for the help! No I don't have the right follower just the
one
> I got from FB right now. But I will make one the right size on my lathe
> before I do the job if I have to.
> Or use a plastic tube split to fit over the follower I have to make up the
> difference.
> Also what I did to save money to start with to just get the Lab refill kit
> and put all the pins in one of those plastic drawer things. So I don't
have
> the pinning charts that would come with a kit. I have some charts that are
> in Bill Phillips book on locksmithing but it doesn't have one on Weslock.
So
> I did a search on the net and found a chart but it didn't have the sizes
of
> the driver pins. So I kept looking and I found that out on another
website.
> If this info is right, It shows 2 sizes of driver pins. .187 and .219.
> Since I have the Lab universal pins, the closest I can come to this is
.185
> or .189 for the first one. and the second one I would have to use a bottom
> pin turned upside down or just use the last top pin it has which is.200. I
> hope this will work out ok.
When you get the Weslock apart you will notice that the key does not ride
flush with the bottom of the plug. Since this takes up space, the shortest
bottom pin is shorter than most locks, so if your pin set only goes down to
.160 you need to select a change key that does not use the shallowest of
cuts.
Christopher posted a good technique for selecting the drivers. I would
avoid using inverted bottom pins however as the spring will tend to slide
off and jam. This is not a good thing.
Mike C
be the smallest pin I have.
Mike C
Mike C
Thanks Key, good idea.
I am a hobby machinest and so I already have digital calipers.
Im also hopeing to make some of the tools I will need for locksmithing as
time gose on.
Mike C
Mike C
You all have been great and I really appreciate it.
Thank you all !!
Mike C
'Key
your digital calipers will take away any guessing.
sometime ya need to file the tip
so it will clear all the way down and contact the key.
g'day
--
"Key"
'Key
your welcome.
look forward to your future participation in the group.
sense you already subscribe to the national locksmith mag.
have you tried the TNL forum ?
http://thenationallocksmith.com/Natlock/adduser.cfm
you will be able to get a lot of info there too.
also
you can also google group search
http://www.google.com/grphp?hl=en&tab=wg&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=
for just about any type subject ya like.
g'luck
--
"Key"
Roger Shoaf
"--Shiva--" <no...@abuse.net> wrote in message
news:c0ltf3$ig6$2...@63.78.119.239...
> On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 10:43:53 -0800, you wrote:
>
> >TITAN
> >
> >I beg to differ here. Titan was designed to be cross compatible with
> >Kwikset. If you want to key a Kwikset to a Titan key all you need to do
is
> >to ignore the first cut.
> >
> >If you are keying a Titan to a Kwikset key you drop the 6th pin.
>
> --Shiva--
>
>
No, you don't need to. The Titan will key up to a standard 5 pin Kwikset
blank just fine. It is designed to stop the Kwikset blank on the bottom
shoulder so the first pin in the Titan plug will line up directly under the
first space on the Kwikset key. The only thing you loose is the 6th pin.
Roger Shoaf
--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.
"Mike C" <no-spam@prospect1999@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:402e7...@127.0.0.1...
Stormin Mormon
use a KW-1 blank in a Titan lock,a nd then went right ahead and told us how
to do it. Choose one -- can do it or can't, please.
BTW, I've seen a couple times Titan locks, using a Titan blank, but with the
(K) bow from KW-1. Really confused me once, cause I didn't expect to be
seeing Titan locks. They had showed me the key before I got there, and it
sure looked like a KW-1.
--
Christopher A. Young
Jesus: The Reason for the Season
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com
"--Shiva--" <no...@abuse.net> wrote in message
news:c0o8eb$ji6$0...@63.78.119.172...
> On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:29:30 -0800, you wrote:
>
> >
> >No, you don't need to. The Titan will key up to a standard 5 pin Kwikset
> >blank just fine. It is designed to stop the Kwikset blank on the bottom
> >shoulder so the first pin in the Titan plug will line up directly under
the
> >first space on the Kwikset key. The only thing you loose is the 6th pin.
>
> but you must use the titan blank...
>
> IF, you are going to use BOTH titan AND KW locks, mixed
> then you cant use the KW blank and pin the titan to IT.
>
> example.... TITAN lock pinned to 3 4 2 5 6 1
> a KW key inserted in that ' can only see the first 5 (ALL this
> assumes bow to tip)
> so it sees the 3 4 2 5 6 and ignores the tip. (due to bottom
> shoulder)
>
> a Titan key uses all 6 positions...
> BUT, insert the titan key in a KW plug and it only 'sees' and
> uses the 4 2 5 6 1
> the first position is between the bow and #1 position FOR the KW
> spacing scheme and is in the KW plug-not available. TO a KW key
> blank
>
> so, then the question begs...if you pin the titan up with a KW
> key, then you DROP the tip pin., making it the not quite equal of
> a KW plug
>
> now, insert THAT key in the KW plug... it also need to be
> pinned to a 3 4 2 5 6
>
> is this WRONG?
>
> --Shiva--
>
>
MThomas859
>No I don't have the right follower just the one
>I got from FB right now. But I will make one the right size on my lathe
>before I do the job if I have to.
I read this somewhere, so it's not my idea but I carry one in my tool box. It's
been handy a few times.
Take a soda pop cam and remove the top an bottom. You can cut the side into
aboiut a 3x4 inch sheet. Roll it into a tube (I wrapped it around one of my
other followers to get the approximate curl). You now have an adjustable size,
hollow follower. I use mine whenever I get that rare odd size that nothing else
fits.
If the end has a gap that would allow the drivers to pop out before the
follower traps them, you can use a shim to bridge the space as was mentioned
previously in this thread.
Mike
Thomas Lock & Key
For an email list discussion of locksmith related marketing concepts join us:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/locksmith-marketing/
Glen Cooper
It requires the removal of a spring and upper pin from the Titan cylinder
for the KW1 blank to work. Not advised but not impossible.
I have been to a house before that had Titan, Defiant, Weslock, Dexter,
Kwikset, and some other junk lock all on the same house. The soulution to
key everything the same was to use a KW1 blank.
The only problem is the Weslock cylinder. You can't use the Kwikset #1 cut
blank or bottom pin in any of the locks. Remember you can use a Kwikset key
in a Weslock but you can't put a Weslock key in a Kwikset cylinder or Titan
because the key rides .015 lower in the keyway. It wont fit. You can see
this by removing the plug from a Kwikset or Titan shell and then inserting a
Weslock blank. The plug wont go back into the shell with the blank
installed because the bottom of the blank is in the way. This also effects
the top of the blank so that's why you can't use the #1 cut.
Now the spacing on the Dexter is a little tricky to get right but not
impossible either.
"--Shiva--" <no...@abuse.net> wrote in message
news:c0opcf$j8c$0...@63.78.119.173...
> On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:38:47 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >Hey, Shiva..... you didn't make much sense here. You said that you
couldn't
> >use a KW-1 blank in a Titan lock,a nd then went right ahead and told us
how
> >to do it. Choose one -- can do it or can't, please.
> >
> you can use the 'titan pattern blank in EITHER... but cannot pin
> a KW blank for both...
>
> >BTW, I've seen a couple times Titan locks, using a Titan blank, but with
the
> >(K) bow from KW-1. Really confused me once, cause I didn't expect to be
> >seeing Titan locks. They had showed me the key before I got there, and it
> >sure looked like a KW-1.
> >
> >--
> the NEW titan blank looks like -head wise, the KW HEAD, but,
> look at the BOTTOM shoulder... its a titan front end..has the off
> set shoulder.
>
>
> --Shiva--
>
>
Roger Shoaf
> On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:29:30 -0800, you wrote:
>
> >
> >blank just fine. It is designed to stop the Kwikset blank on the bottom
> >shoulder so the first pin in the Titan plug will line up directly under
the
> >first space on the Kwikset key. The only thing you loose is the 6th pin.
>
>
> IF, you are going to use BOTH titan AND KW locks, mixed
> then you cant use the KW blank and pin the titan to IT.
>
> example.... TITAN lock pinned to 3 4 2 5 6 1
> a KW key inserted in that ' can only see the first 5 (ALL this
> assumes bow to tip)
> so it sees the 3 4 2 5 6 and ignores the tip. (due to bottom
> shoulder)
>
> a Titan key uses all 6 positions...
> BUT, insert the titan key in a KW plug and it only 'sees' and
> uses the 4 2 5 6 1
> the first position is between the bow and #1 position FOR the KW
> spacing scheme and is in the KW plug-not available. TO a KW key
> blank
>
> so, then the question begs...if you pin the titan up with a KW
> key, then you DROP the tip pin., making it the not quite equal of
> a KW plug
I am not sure what you mean by "not quite equal to a KW plug" but when
Kwikset came out with the Titan, they sold it with the idea that you could
key it to an existing Kwikset key. They also sold cylinders so you could
key them to Schlage C keys and some other brands.
>
> now, insert THAT key in the KW plug... it also need to be
> pinned to a 3 4 2 5 6
>
> is this WRONG?
>
Your last statement/question is in error. If a Titan key with bittings 3 4
2 5 6 1 is used to pin a Kwikset lock, the Kwikset would only see the last
five or 4 2 5 6 1.
Personally I would tend to avoid that particular combination as having a 6
next to a 1 is bad form, especially if you use original pins and key
geometry.
Roger Shoaf
>
> The only problem is the Weslock cylinder. You can't use the Kwikset #1
cut
> blank or bottom pin in any of the locks.
You can use a 1 cut, if uou have short enough bottom pins.
Remember you can use a Kwikset key
> in a Weslock but you can't put a Weslock key in a Kwikset cylinder or
Titan
> because the key rides .015 lower in the keyway. It wont fit. You can see
> this by removing the plug from a Kwikset or Titan shell and then inserting
a
> Weslock blank. The plug wont go back into the shell with the blank
> installed because the bottom of the blank is in the way. This also
effects
> the top of the blank so that's why you can't use the #1 cut.
Glen,
You can key a Kwikset lock to a Weslock key. The Weslock bkank will ride
lower in the plug, but if you measure depth of the cut on the Weslock key
and subtract that from .5 inches, this will give you the proper theoretical
pin length. The actual pin length might be a little longer by .005 or .010
in any given lock due to the actual diameter of the cylinder.
Also when cross keying sometimes you run into the need to widen the cuts a
little if the spacing is slightly different, and if you have certain
function Weiser or Falcon locks somtimes you need to be careful how much the
key can pull out while the plug is turned or the mechanism will not turn and
on others you might need to pay attention to the lower angle on the key as
it might interere with the cap or clip.
The old National's were a real bugger to cross key. Good thing I don't see
many of those any more.
Glen Cooper
Roger you are having a brain fart. You can't key a Kwikset lock to a
Weslock key. The blank wont enter the cylinder unless you take the Weslock
blank and shave .015" off the bottom. You can key a Weslock up to a Kwikset
key but you cant use a #1 cut bottom pin unless it is very short. Both
locks are crap the Weslock being major crap. Short pins dont dont get along
well with Weslocks. You can key a Kwikset to a Weiser key. This may be
what you're thinking about. I know I always get the two mixed up. I dont
see them that often. Heck I may be getting the two mixed up now but I dont
think so.
Roger Shoaf
> Roger you are having a brain fart. You can't key a Kwikset lock to a
> Weslock key. The blank wont enter the cylinder unless you take the
Weslock
> blank and shave .015" off the bottom.
Damn it Glen,
I have only been keying up locks since Jimmy Carter was president, why
didn't you tell me this before I had done it?
> You can key a Weslock up to a Kwikset
> key but you cant use a #1 cut bottom pin unless it is very short.
Both
> locks are crap the Weslock being major crap. Short pins dont dont get
along
> well with Weslocks.
Pray tell wise sage, what is the shortest pin that Weslock uses?
> You can key a Kwikset to a Weiser key. This may be
> what you're thinking about. I know I always get the two mixed up. I dont
> see them that often. Heck I may be getting the two mixed up now but I
dont
> think so.
I have never been able to even slide a Weiser key into a Kwikset plug as it
is too thick. What is your secret?
Glen Cooper
>
> "Glen Cooper" <g.e.c...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:pF4Yb.31033$hR.7...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > Roger you are having a brain fart. You can't key a Kwikset lock to a
> > Weslock key. The blank wont enter the cylinder unless you take the
> Weslock
> > blank and shave .015" off the bottom.
>
> Damn it Glen,
>
> I have only been keying up locks since Jimmy Carter was president, why
> didn't you tell me this before I had done it?
>
>
OK Roger, I went out to the truck and got a Kwikset 660 Deadbolt, and Ilco
blanks KW1, WR5, and WK2. Let's see what happens. All parts are new.
OK we both had brain farts. The WR5 Weiser blank wont go into the plug with
it out of the shell. You are right on that one.
The WK2 Weslock blank will only go into the plug with the plug out of the
shell. I was right on that one.
I don't have OEM blanks but they should be the same as the Ilco's.
As far as I can tell by this little experment before me we should both go
change our underware.
>
>
>
> > You can key a Weslock up to a Kwikset
> > key but you cant use a #1 cut bottom pin unless it is very short.
> Both
> > locks are crap the Weslock being major crap. Short pins dont dont get
> along
> > well with Weslocks.
>
> Pray tell wise sage, what is the shortest pin that Weslock uses?
>
.156" I think?
Roger Shoaf
> On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:46:56 -0800, you wrote:
>
> >
> >> so, then the question begs...if you pin the titan up with a KW
> >> key, then you DROP the tip pin., making it the not quite equal of
> >> a KW plug
> >
> >I am not sure what you mean by "not quite equal to a KW plug" but when
> >Kwikset came out with the Titan, they sold it with the idea that you
could
> >key it to an existing Kwikset key. They also sold cylinders so you could
> >key them to Schlage C keys and some other brands.
> >
> using the KW key, it uses the first 5 (due to bottom shoulder,
> so you got to 'lose' the tip pin)
>
> its only available IF one uses the titan blank
> now, would this be a 'good thing"? probably not...
>
> --Shiva--
>
>
Well the Kwikset only has 5 holes. If a customer wanted you to install a
Titan dead bolt and key it up to their Kwikset key would you do it?
If you buy a Schlage A lock it comes with 5 pin keys but it has six holes.
Is this a bad thing?
If you buy an 1 1/8 inch mortise cylinder it will have six holes but it
probably comes with 5 pin keys also.
I was taking issue with your contention that:
"If you are keying a Titan to a Kwikset key you drop the 6th pin.
MIXING the 2 is FINE... BUT you MUST USE the Titan key blank"
You emphatically pronounced you must use the Titan blank. This is not true.
Roger Shoaf
> On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:08:02 -0800, you wrote:
>
> >
> >Well the Kwikset only has 5 holes. If a customer wanted you to install a
> >Titan dead bolt and key it up to their Kwikset key would you do it?
> >
>
> >If you buy a Schlage A lock it comes with 5 pin keys but it has six
holes.
> >Is this a bad thing?
> I have made 5 cut Schlage locks (pinned 5, but 6 hole) as an
> addition into an existing system.. the cae there was MANY folks
> had the 6 cut key, but this lock needed access to 1 or 2 people
> IN ADDITION, and they did not want to give out a 6 cut to them..
> BUT at the same time the 6 cut key needed to be usable as well...
>
> >If you buy an 1 1/8 inch mortise cylinder it will have six holes but it
> >probably comes with 5 pin keys also.
>
> >I was taking issue with your contention that:
> >
> > "If you are keying a Titan to a Kwikset key you drop the 6th pin.
> >MIXING the 2 is FINE... BUT you MUST USE the Titan key blank"
> >
> >You emphatically pronounced you must use the Titan blank. This is not
true.
> material, I 'feel' that it will force excessive wear in a small
> location, resulting in a premature wear of THAT plug
> only...(knowing how some of what I get to repin show for a wear
> pattern) Using the titan blank gives the 2 contact points,
> thereby increasing the 'stop contact area' by 100%, making it
> last longer
>
> --Shiva--
>
>
So if I follow you correctly, when you used the word "must" with the
emphasis of capital letters, you were trying to convey a dire warning of an
uneven wear pattern.
OK, so how many times would you expect the lock could be used with it being
keyed to a Kwikset key before there was a key stop /plug wear problem?
OneGuy
"'Key" <K...@You.net> trolled nothing of value in message
<snip the troll>
'Key
news:c0ulbs$1cbsh9$1...@ID-102870.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "'Key" <K...@You.net> trolled nothing of value in message
> <snip the troll>
>
you got as problem ?
keep it in the other group.
these folks here don't care for your childish actions
troll-boy.
--
"Key"
SomeGuy
<nothing of value>
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
(This applies to BOTH sides of personal sniping. If you don't think the
other person says anything interesting, block 'em off your machine. That
way they don't bother you, and your arguing doesn't bother us.)
--
Joe Kesselman, http://www.lovesong.com/people/keshlam/
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