Schlage P keyway?

[Seamus]

The distributor from which I most often buy cylinders, blanks, etc.,
recently began to offer a "Schlage restricted P keyway" blank ... it's
not a Primus keyway (e.g., CP, CEP, EP, EFP, FP, FGP, GP, HP, JP, KP,
LP), and the "P" designation doesn't fit in with the restricted
Reverse, Numbered, or Quad nomenclatures ... so what is it exactly?
(The distributor chose not to publish a keysection profile, so no
clues were to be had there either.)

I've seen in some of Schlage's recent product literature that they're
selling a keyway (not keysection) called "P," which is simply a
composite keyway designed to be operating by all Obverse keysections,
C through L ... but this doesn't fit the notion of a "restricted P
keyway" either.

Does someone out there have some idea of what exactly this might be?

[Seamus]

<a href="http://img139.imagevenue.com/img.php?
image=558689474_SchlageObverse_122_524lo.jpg" target=_blank><img
src="http://img139.imagevenue.com/loc524/
th_558689474_SchlageObverse_122_524lo.jpg" border="0"></a>

[Evan]

@Seamus:

"P" is a composite keyway for the Schlage Classic Obverse keyway
family... It allows all 11 keys in the family to enter the
cylinder...
It is useful in certain situations where a system uses multiple
keyways to accomplish some specialized keying conditions...

There are no specific cylinders made for the multi-section keys:
H, J, K and L...

You made a mistake with your list of Classic Obverse Primus keyways,
there are no GP nor KP keyways, the nature of the design of those
key blanks doesn't leave enough material on the blank to mill away
for the Primus finger pin milling...

~~ Evan

[Seamus]

Another typical Evan response ... packed with pretension, parroting
details I've already specified as if to "educate" me ... I guess the
ridiculousness is growing on me; now, I simply chuckle and roll my
eyes instead of growing irritated.

Yet again, you've failed to contribute anything of any substance or
relevance to the conversation ... I asked whether anyone was familiar
with a "restricted P keysection," and explicitly said that the P
key*WAY* is a composite for the C through L sections, ergo it doesn't
make sense that there'd be a restricted P key*SECTION* matching the P
key*WAY*.

I'm fairly certain it's a waste of keystrokes, but I'll re-type it
anyway ... PLEASE RESIST ANY FUTURE URGES TO STROKE YOUR EGO IN
RESPONSE TO ANY OF MY POSTS. I HAVE NO INTEREST WHATSOEVER IN
ANYTHING YOU MAY WISH TO CONTRIBUTE.

For everyone else, the question remains: Has anyone out there come
across a "restricted P keysection blank," or a related (presumably
restricted) keyway?

[Seamus]

> restricted) keyway?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

For what it's worth, I have no difficulty admitting I've made a
mistake ... there are, of course, no GP, JP, or KP keysections, for
exactly the reason Evan stated. I'd simply gotten caught up in the
habit of rattling off Obverse keyways, and momentarily forgot that
these three keysections dont' exist. My ego isn't so fragile that it
can't withstand a very minor and insubstantial blow.

[Evan]

@Seamus:

DUDE, there is no "P" blank... It is a multi-milled composite
cylinder keyway only... No specific P only key blanks exist...

Do you like asking stupid questions which poke holes in your
claims about "knowing things about locks"...

Seriously... Please stop asking stupid questions about
basic information which is available if you were actually
bothered enough to look for the cylinder and keying manual
available from Schlage...

~~ Evan

[Seamus]

DUDE. Fuck off an die. Yeah ... and die too.

http://img176.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=650421671_SchlagePBlank_122_31lo.jpg

[Seamus]

On Feb 7, 1:54 pm, Seamus <wry...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >http://img176.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=650421671_SchlagePBlank_12...
>
> ... and, DUDE, cylinders aren't "milled," they're "machined."  Only
> keyblanks get "milled."  You dumb spittle-lipped red-eyed incestuous
> web-footed trailer park cousinfucker.

... err ... make that "sisterfucker."

[Evan]

On Feb 7, 4:54 pm, Seamus <wry...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >http://img176.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=650421671_SchlagePBlank_12...
>
> ... and, DUDE, cylinders aren't "milled," they're "machined."  Only
> keyblanks get "milled."  You dumb spittle-lipped red-eyed incestuous
> web-footed trailer park cousinfucker.

@Seamus:

If you want to get technical, keyways in cylinders are
broached... Broaching is a milling process... The
dies used are called broaching mills...

But you clearly aren't out looking for information for
knowledge purposes, you are looking for a quick
short cut to get what you need done -- you just
aren't being honest with the people whom you are
asking...

Watch out on the forum websites you are trying
to be a part of, not cool using multiple e-mail
addresses to try and obfuscate your activities...

~~ Evan

[Seamus]

Kudos on your complete inability to acknowledge the evidence of a P-
keysection blank. Your lack of ego is humbling.

[Seamus]

For clarification: I'm a member of two such websites, and I use the
same email address for both, only my handle differs. But, wow, you're
a regular Nancy Drew.

[Jay Hennigan]

It sounds like they're re-using the letter P in different contexts.

The P keyway in your picture is similar to the Schlage keyway found in
Emhart padlocks made for Schlage compatibility. The local locksmiths
call it the "slut" keyway because it will take anything you poke at it.

Emhart produces it as an aftermarket thing so locksmiths won't need to
stock a number of sections (and/or they won't have to make them).

I'm somewhat surprised to see Schlage producing it. In my opinion it's
kind of a sloppy practice to use this keyway. It reduces security by
allowing unintended keys to access the lock. There may be some obscure
need for it in an unusual large system where multiple keyways are in use
with the same bitting that need to operate a common lock, perhaps a
maison type of application. If the proper section is available one
should use it.

[Seamus]

@ Jay ...

All of my thoughts exactly ... the P keyway illustrated in the keyway-
hierarchy graphic is the same as what Ilco, GMS, et al, refer to as
the "Schlage C-K keyway," and it's exactly the same thing: a
composite cylinder milled specifically to accept all Classic Obverse
sections, C through L. I can imagine that such composite keyways can
make things infinitely easier for lazy locksmiths, facilities
personnel, and such, as the composite keyway could relieve the need to
stock the 7 Schlage Classic Observe keyways, but ... yeah. Septupling
the number of keys that could potentially (unintendedly) operate a
composite cylinder alone is a very good reason to stay the hell away
from this option. In masterkeyed systems, even in very large
multiplex ones, I can't think of a single reasonable argument for
using the composite keyway ...

If, say, the cylinders used are in the E, F, and G keyways, and change
keys are cut onto the corresponding blanks, mid-level masters cut onto
H, J, or K blanks, and high-level masters on the L blank, it'd
certainly be easier to use the P keyway for a cylinder to be
extensively cross-keyed across sections, but it seems to me that
common sense and ordinary security policy would dictate using another
keyway entirely (say, C if key duplication isn't a big concern, and
maybe FG if Walmart key duplication was to be pre-empted), key it as a
change key under a/the GM or the GGM, and issue a single key for the
operation of that cylinder.

In large facilities and institutions, on campuses and in large medical
centers, for example, which often do use multiplexing, I've most often
seen perimeter doors for a particular building keyed alike, as a
change key directly under a GM or the GGM (i.e., A1, GGM1). On
college campuses, classrooms within an academic department or within a
given building are very often all keyed alike. Still, in any of these
cases, I have some difficulty imagining how the use of a composite
keyway could be justified from a security viewpoint.

[Seamus]

I was assuming, of course, that the hypothetical facility would've
employed the "security over convenience" and "issue keys on a strictly
necessary-for-job-functions basis" principles.

In reality, convenience and ego often trump security in the issuance
of keys, particularly high-level masters. At the local university,
under the previous systems/processes for key issuance, GGM's were
routinely issued to people whose jobs did not require such high-level
access, based upon seniority, tenure, department head status, etc.
Recently they updated their policies so that masters of any given
level are issued strictly to users based upon day-to-day operational
requirements. Issuance of any key at the master level requires the
approval of the appropriate department head or director, grandmasters
require that signature along with that of the facilities manager and a
vice-president or provost, and GGM's require the University
President's signature *and* that of the campus police chief.

[Evan]

@Seamus:

Most colleges/universities these days do not issue
high level keys to individual users to keep in their
personal possession, instead persons who have high
level access generally check their keysets in and out of
a centralized key room or from the campus police so that
the master level keys can not be lost by or stolen from an
employee while in their possession off campus...

Facilities personnel generally only have the change keys
required to access their central office/work room area
assigned to them so they can check in before signing
out their duty-ring keyset for the day...

Smaller colleges are sometimes exceptions to this rule
but generally any key that can open more than one
department or building often doesn't leave the campus...

High level keysets in a large institution can represent
hundreds of thousands of dollars in re-keying expenses
and all the associated labor and record keeping which
comes along with that process of a corporate re-lock
if a missing set of campus grand master keys goes
missing... This is why access to such keys requires
obtaining coordinated permission from many various
administrators within the facilities, security and
president's office to obtain them because if they are
lost it is not like a small simple department level
maintenance expense to re-key a handful of doors
to lock out a missing change key -- replacement
of a missing master key or higher is more often
than not a capital expense and a major disruption
to normal operations until all keyholders can be
issued new replacement keys...

~~ Evan

[RS at work]

I suspect this is a typo. But if you order from this supplier all the
time, why not just order one and see what it is? When I searched the
P/N 30-101-P it seems to me that the offerings are just copies of the
original error.

If it is a legit P/N, my guess is that it would be a key blank that
will pass a P keyway but none of the rest. I have been a locksmith
Since Jimmy Carter was President, but I have never seen a "P" key from
Schlage.

[Seamus]