Firefighter rqstng slim jim instruction sheet
D411foa911
Someone threw away the original instruction sheets that explain lock attack
points and push pull techniques on vehicle model/year that came with the slim
jims on all five of our fire engines.
I would like a copy of this and I will laminate it and put it on all of the
rigs.
Kevin Bagg
Firefighter/Paramedic
NLVFD
D411f...@aol.com
Matt Bancroft
On 15 Feb 1998 18:59:13 GMT, D411foa911 <d411f...@aol.com> wrote:
>Someone threw away the original instruction sheets that explain lock attack
>points and push pull techniques on vehicle model/year that came with the slim
>jims on all five of our fire engines.
Many places like auto salvage yards/auctioneers are shying away from the
conventional metal slimjim, cuz it can cause large amounts of damage to
side airbags and other wiring that's in the door. Also many car manufacturers
have sheilds over the catch mechanism to the door so that a slim jim
won't even work. Modern car door opener kits, usually consist of conventional
slimjim plus what looks like a few peices of springgy coat hanger bent
into some kewl shapes. One junkyard d00d was telling me about some
guy that called up and wanted to sell plastic slimjim for new car doors, but
the boss was too cheap to splurge for the $110 thing..
Matt
David W Sutton
The reason slim jims have gone by the wayside is not due to shields ( whic
you are right many are using- such as Toyota ) but because the car
manufacturers started designing the door locks with a rigid paw on the back
of the lock rather than a " lazy paw" what this means is to move the back
of the lock with the rod attatched, you must bust the back of the lock or
disconnect the rod from the lock ala-slim jim. The last car manufacture to
use the lazy paw ( able to be moved with no damage) was the 1990 model
Hondas, since then slim jims are really just interior door destroyers. I
love to hear the old story- so and so opened my door and now the door
handles dont work. My advice- Yes by all means pleas purchase all the slim
jims you can, it means more work for me !
David
Affordable
Matt Bancroft <ma...@MEC.Edu> wrote in article
<slrn6effq...@gatekeeper.Matt.MEC.Edu>...
PALMBECO
INSTRUCTIONS:
FIREFIGHTERS USE OF SLIM-JIM
Remove outer protective covering. Grasp tool firmly with operators dominant
hand, and using other hand as a guide throw the damn thing as far as you can
and call a quailfied tech to open the car. If it is an emergency use the
"JAWS", otherwise it shouldn't come under your jurisdiction.
Bob De Weese
D411foa911 wrote:
>
> Someone threw away the original instruction sheets that explain lock attack
> points and push pull techniques on vehicle model/year that came with the slim
> jims on all five of our fire engines.
>
> rigs.
>
> Kevin Bagg
> Firefighter/Paramedic
> NLVFD
> D411f...@aol.com
Buy a spring-loaded center punch (about $7). If it's not enough of an
emergency to bust a $100 window, it's not an emergency. If it's not an
emergency, firefighters shouldn't be opening it in the first place.
And if nobody else wants to be straight forward enough to say it, I
will. Opening cars is part of the way I feed, clothe and shelter my
wife and kids, just like fighting fires is how you feed, clothe and
shelter yours. Thing is though, if I see a small fire and put it out
with a fire extinguisher, _you_ don't lose any of _your_ pay check.
OTOH, if I'm on my way to open a car and you get it open before I get
there, you might as well reach into my pocket, take $45 (min.) out, and
throw it away.
This is NOT my "hobbie". This is how _I_ support _my_ family. NOW can
you relate?
Bobby
--
Bob De Weese
Certified Professional Locksmith
bear...@bigfoot.com
*******************************************************************
* "The secret to effective communication is knowing what to say, *
* how to say it, and whom to say it to." *
*******************************************************************
Tom Whitehead
We always use a carpenters punch on a side window. BTW
firefighters never go out unless it is an emergency so you can save
the bullshit about taking money out of your pocket. When we opened
doors it was because life and property were in danger. NOW can you
relate?
On Mon, 16 Feb 1998 18:52:04 -0500, Bob De Weese <bear...@erols.com>
wrote:
Matthew T. Russotto
}And if nobody else wants to be straight forward enough to say it, I
}will. Opening cars is part of the way I feed, clothe and shelter my
}wife and kids, just like fighting fires is how you feed, clothe and
}shelter yours. Thing is though, if I see a small fire and put it out
}with a fire extinguisher, _you_ don't lose any of _your_ pay check.
}OTOH, if I'm on my way to open a car and you get it open before I get
}there, you might as well reach into my pocket, take $45 (min.) out, and
}throw it away.
So anyone who does anything a professional does for a living is stealing
from that professional? Seems ridiculous to me. I've opened cars on
occasion -- should I have told the people involved "Sorry, if I open
this car for you, I'm stealing from the locksmith you would otherwise
have to call?".
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."
Tom Whitehead
On 17 Feb 1998 03:43:27 GMT, russ...@wanda.pond.com (Matthew T.
Russotto) wrote:
>In article <34E8D1...@erols.com>, Bob De Weese <bear...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>}And if nobody else wants to be straight forward enough to say it, I
>}will. Opening cars is part of the way I feed, clothe and shelter my
>}wife and kids, just like fighting fires is how you feed, clothe and
>}shelter yours. Thing is though, if I see a small fire and put it out
>}with a fire extinguisher, _you_ don't lose any of _your_ pay check.
>}OTOH, if I'm on my way to open a car and you get it open before I get
>}there, you might as well reach into my pocket, take $45 (min.) out, and
>}throw it away.
Don't be sorry. Taking money out of the pocket of an asshole like
him would be a public service. Not all locksmiths are like him. I have
only been studying locksmithing for about two months now and I have
had a lot of help from many good locksmiths.
>So anyone who does anything a professional does for a living is stealing
>from that professional? Seems ridiculous to me. I've opened cars on
>occasion -- should I have told the people involved "Sorry, if I open
>this car for you, I'm stealing from the locksmith you would otherwise
>have to call?".
>--
>Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
>"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
>of justice is no virtue."
If you can't find the tools you need I can get them for your
department. E-mail me and we can work out something.
fire...@jcn1.com
Tom Whitehead
David W Sutton
Well it would appear that you dont work for every fire department in the
nation. Some go out on regular lock outs some dont. What really sucks it
when you get a call on a lockout and drive 20 to 30 minutes in a non
emergency and find that " some nice policeman or some nice fireman came
over and unlocked it. " Of course the owner didnt call back and inform you,
they just drove off. so gas, time ect were all wasted not to mention the
other calls you missed because you are on a wild goose chase. I agree with
Shiva, Let us pay firefighters ONLY when they are fighting a fire and not
for the " watching TV' or sleeping time and they might have a different
attitude about people involved in a service industry that ONLY get paid
when they deliver a service.
David
Tom Whitehead <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in article
<34e91fc...@news.dra.com>...
>
> We always use a carpenters punch on a side window. BTW
> firefighters never go out unless it is an emergency so you can save
> the bullshit about taking money out of your pocket. When we opened
> doors it was because life and property were in danger. NOW can you
> relate?
>
>
> On Mon, 16 Feb 1998 18:52:04 -0500, Bob De Weese <bear...@erols.com>
>
> wrote:
>
> >D411foa911 wrote:
> >>
> >> Someone threw away the original instruction sheets that explain lock
attack
> >> points and push pull techniques on vehicle model/year that came with
the slim
> >> jims on all five of our fire engines.
> >>
> >> I would like a copy of this and I will laminate it and put it on all
of the
> >> rigs.
> >>
> >> Kevin Bagg
> >> Firefighter/Paramedic
> >> NLVFD
> >> D411f...@aol.com
> >
> >
> >Buy a spring-loaded center punch (about $7). If it's not enough of an
> >emergency to bust a $100 window, it's not an emergency. If it's not an
> >emergency, firefighters shouldn't be opening it in the first place.
> >
> >And if nobody else wants to be straight forward enough to say it, I
> >will. Opening cars is part of the way I feed, clothe and shelter my
> >wife and kids, just like fighting fires is how you feed, clothe and
> >shelter yours. Thing is though, if I see a small fire and put it out
> >with a fire extinguisher, _you_ don't lose any of _your_ pay check.
> >OTOH, if I'm on my way to open a car and you get it open before I get
> >there, you might as well reach into my pocket, take $45 (min.) out, and
> >throw it away.
> >
Tom Whitehead
I have also served as a volunteer firefighter for three years. I
was never paid for watching tv. All the guys on the volunteer
department had jobs during the day and often stayed all night on the
fire ground and I promise you they were not watching tv. So if I don't
have much sympathy for you if you miss a few minutes of beauty sleep
maybe you'll understand. Maybe you should join a volunteer department
then you might have some idea about what you are talking about. This
bullshit of accusing people of robbing you when you have no idea of
the circumstances is just evidence of greed. In my area there is only
one locksmith. He has been a locksmith for nineteen years and says he
is sick of it. He doesn't care if "some nice fireman" opens a car.
fire...@inlink.com
Tom Whitehead
On 17 Feb 1998 16:11:12 GMT, "David W Sutton" <dwsu...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
The Brass Key Shop
On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Tom Whitehead wrote:
>
> We always use a carpenters punch on a side window. BTW
> firefighters never go out unless it is an emergency so you can save
> the bullshit about taking money out of your pocket. When we opened
> doors it was because life and property were in danger. NOW can you
> relate?
>
>
We (professional locksmiths) can relate. UNFORTUNATELY there are a LOT
of towns that consider a key locked in the car an emergency and send the
firemen out to open the cars. If it is an emergency, time is critical
and you can not afford to spend twenty minutes messing around with a
slimjim to open the car. Punch the window and save the person. When ALL
firefighters quit doing routine car openings, you can get high-handed
with us.
Bill Mandlebaum, CPL
Darwin Feakes
I am a volunteer fireman and that is what I do and don't even charge the
person for the 10% of the time I am needed on the fire.
Tom Whitehead
I can get "high handed" with you any time I feel like it. Your
constant crybaby accusations of public safety officials stealing from
you is really an embarrassment to your trade even if you are too
stupid to realize it. When you can show how being a {professional
locksmith} qualifies you to evaluate what is and is not an emergency
maybe I'll take you serious.
If a police or fire department is really hurting your businesses by
doing non- emergency car openings go down and talk to them. They
are probably only trying to perform a public service and are unaware
that they are creating a problem for you. You might find that they are
not so bad if you leave the "You are robbing me" attitude outside.
Most will try to co-operate with you but some may not. If they don't
take it to the city council and the mayor. If you can show them you
have a legitimate complaint you may get positive results but if you go
in with this your robbing me your stealing me blind they are not going
to want to help you.
I don't know what this department wants with slim jims and neither
do you. People don't like it when fire personnel come on swinging axes
and destroying property and if a child can be gotten out of a locked
car reasonably fast without destroying things they are going to do it.
If there is time to call a locksmith fine but that decision is for the
people responsible for the safety of the people in there fire
protection district not yours.
fire...@jcn1.com
Tom Whitehead
Andrew Gnoza - WWWebologist©
On 15 Feb 1998 18:59:13 GMT, d411f...@aol.com (D411foa911) wrote:
Policemen should enforce laws and arrest bad guys !
Firemen should do inspections and put out fires!
Locksmiths should be given the opportunity to make a living and be
fairly compensated for it. ALL calls for public assistance in lockouts
should be referred to a locksmith. Period
As a police officer for 25 years the only time I would unlock a car
was if there was a child or pet inside and I wanted in.
I always used my Kel light as an opening tool.
ALL lockouts were referred to AAA or a locksmith.
Broken water pipes were referred to a plumber
Broken down cars were referred to a tow service.
Pediod
Andrew Gnoza
WWWebologist©
Tom Whitehead
You seem to have the impression that I advocate police and fire
doing non-emergency lockouts and I have never written anything of the
kind. No fire department that I have been associated with have ever
done so. We would not start a fire truck and rescue rolling to a
non-emergency lockout it would be absurd. This issue that has gotten
lost in this hysterical assumption that I have is wrong. My objection
was in this blanket and preposterous accusation that law enforcement
and other emergency services are trying to steal money from
locksmiths. I have worked in the fire and EMS services both as
volunteer and paid and I have never tried to steal anything from
anyone and I'm outraged by the implication that I ever have. If you
were a police officer you know full well that such accusations are
the product of a disturbed or intoxicated mind. The police in my town
have in the past opened cars but now that a locksmith is reasonable
close he is called in non-emergencies and sometimes asked to standby
while we wait for the key holder on calls with an alarm sounding with
no visible evidence of fire off fire or any other indications of
danger to life and property. I can understand the frustration of
someone who runs accross some city officials who are jerks but that
is no reason to accuse emergency services as a whole. Any one who does
is in need of psychiatric evaluation and I can promise anyone stupid
enough to go into a police or fire station and start accusing them of
it will be trying to convince a judge or psychiatrist that they are
not a danger to themselves or the community.
fire...@jcn1.com
Tom Whitehead
The Brass Key Shop
On 17 Feb 1998, David W Sutton wrote:
> Well it would appear that you dont work for every fire department in the
> nation. Some go out on regular lock outs some dont. What really sucks it
> when you get a call on a lockout and drive 20 to 30 minutes in a non
> emergency and find that " some nice policeman or some nice fireman came
> over and unlocked it. " Of course the owner didnt call back and inform you,
> they just drove off. so gas, time ect were all wasted not to mention the
> other calls you missed because you are on a wild goose chase. I agree with
> Shiva, Let us pay firefighters ONLY when they are fighting a fire and not
> for the " watching TV' or sleeping time and they might have a different
> attitude about people involved in a service industry that ONLY get paid
> when they deliver a service.
>
> David
Lets go one step further. Let us have TWO fire departments in each
town. Then people can call both and the first one that gets there is the
only one paid. The other can go home unpaid. Then they would really
know how it feels.
Bill Mandlebaum, CPL
rob...@mindless.com
In article <34ea890...@news.dra.com>,
and police depts in general should not be blamed as a wholeno one can blame
what they do in an emergency how ever in my town they do open cars as a
service to make them more popular.they do call me when they are unable to open
something with their slimjim,and we all know they cant do much with those.
If people would try to get along with their police and fire depts they would
all benifit.
Robert Duncan Locksmith
Plattsmouth NE
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Tom Whitehead
On Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:12:32 -0500, The Brass Key Shop
<bras...@wcnet.org> wrote:
>On 17 Feb 1998, David W Sutton wrote:
>
>> Well it would appear that you dont work for every fire department in the
>> nation. Some go out on regular lock outs some dont. What really sucks it
>> when you get a call on a lockout and drive 20 to 30 minutes in a non
>> emergency and find that " some nice policeman or some nice fireman came
>> over and unlocked it. " Of course the owner didnt call back and inform you,
>> they just drove off. so gas, time ect were all wasted not to mention the
>> other calls you missed because you are on a wild goose chase. I agree with
>> Shiva, Let us pay firefighters ONLY when they are fighting a fire and not
>> for the " watching TV' or sleeping time and they might have a different
>> attitude about people involved in a service industry that ONLY get paid
>> when they deliver a service.
>>
>> David
It's called mutual aid and I have been on many of them. I feel
great about doing them it's called helping fellow firefighters. You
will find that firefighters unlike your ilk are not paranoid and
selfcentered. Millions of volunteers put life on the line every day
to help fellow firefighters and their surrounding communities without
pay. You should give it a try.
In your mind everyone has stolen from you at one time or another,
lets see, the police steal from you firefighters,parametics, tow truck
drivers according to letters column in your national locksmith
magazine one of you even accuse ALOA of being in a conspiricy with
police to rob you. Is there anyone that is not stealing money from
you? I'll bet in your confused mind even other locksmiths are
plotting to steal the food off your table.
Matt Bancroft
>ALL lockouts were referred to AAA or a locksmith.
If the police could have opened the door for the poor sap that locked his
keys in the car he probably could have saved around $50
>Broken water pipes were referred to a plumber
>Broken down cars were referred to a tow service.
Ye, that's right just let the police call a tow service when they feel like it.
By the time you get your car back there's a good chance anything of value in
the car will be stolen, and your bare minimum fee for the tow/night's storage
will be in excess of $100. You'll get a much better deal if you can pick
and choose the tow service yourself. The police usually act from a list
of approved wreckers with exhorbitant fees, and in many areas its rumored
you need to give the cops the proper kickbacks to get on the list.
I don't really see why the police/firefighters shouldn't be able to open cars
using a slimjim set, after all their response time is usually a lot better than
a locksmith's. Using a slimjim set doesn't take a whole lot of know how, in
most cases just read the instruction book that lists the year/model of the
vehicle and then use the appropriate tool from the door opener set and you'll
be able to open a large number of cars.
Admitedly some cars may require other steps to get the door open. Some things
im aware of that the police probably can't do or don't have the proper
tools. But for a run of the mill mid 80's buick like i have a cop with
a slimjim would do fine. If the cop can't open it then call the locksmith.
---------------------------------------------------
= Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, =
= For you are crunchy, and good with mustard =
= =
= Matt Bancroft =
---------------------------------------------------
aa...@_no.spam.deltanet.com
A firefighter requested an instruction sheet on how to use a slim jim.
In the interests of mending fences, I thought I'd prepare one for him.
"HOW TO OPEN A LATE MODEL LEXUS WITH A SLIM JIM"
1. Insert your slim jim in the driver's side door, about 3" from the
rear edge of the window.
2. Gently rock the slim jim from side to side while moving it up
and down.
3. When your slim jim hooks onto something, quickly yank the
slim jim upwards.
4. Repeat step 3 until you no longer hook onto anything.
5. Now, go to the passenger's side door and repeat the above.
After all, it's mostly a matter of luck whether you hook onto
the linkage, and working on two doors doubles your chances!
6. Next, explain to the car owner that he'll probably have to call
a locksmith because this is one of those newfangled cars with
nonstandard door locks. Remind him there's no charge for your
best efforts to open his car; it's all part of his tax dollars at work.
7. Finally, explain to him that the fire department probably has
governmental immunity, and not to bother sending in any claims
for damage to the inside of his door. Besides, everybody knows
a slim jim is a universally accepted car opening tool and you
can't really break anything with it. If the citizen says anything, you
can always remind him:
"Hey, what do you want for nothing?"
Pro Lock
Well, I guess if Tom Whitehead can call professional locksmiths
"cry babies" and "greedy", then the professional locksmiths would be obligated
to call Mr. Whitehead a "dink".
He obviously has led a pampered life, and I pray to god he be a better
firefighter than he is a diplomat.
I do not remember when I heard a bigger load of shit that this
"pubic servant" has spewed on this newsgroup.
I do truly feel sory for him however, for he will probably never NEED to
produce , to get paid.
Just my opinion.
JV
Joe Kesselman, yclept Keshlam
Folks, can we all stop sniping at each other, please?
We seem to mostly be in agreement that firefighters,
for the most part, really have no particular need for
a slim-jim. It's unreliable at best these days (and possibly
an active safety hazard, if side-impact airbags are
present), and it's too slow for emergencies.
There may, however, be legitimate reasons for a few
individuals on the rescue squad to have some locksmithing
skills. The answer is that they should probably work
with their local locksmiths to get the training and support
they need -- especially since it's not a one-time issue;
cars keep changing and you have to be willing to invest
ongoing effort (and ongoing cash expenses) in order to
stay current.
If you _can't_ get local support, you need to work on your
local PR... and/or you don't have a decent justification, and
should probably either come up with better reasons or
concede the point. Or make a _real_ investment, and become
at least a semi-professional locksmith yourself, so you have
your own sources of education and supplies.
Is it worth that effort, or not? Up to you...
In any case, the Internet -- and in fact an Internet newsgroup
aimed at _hobbyists_, which is what this is -- isn't really a
good place to look for professional-quality advice, even
though there are a few pros participating.
Tom Whitehead
If you had any ability to comprehend what you read you would know
that I did not call professional locksmiths cry babies. You
deliberately twisted everything I wrote.These constant childish
insults and daily spewing of hatred at people is like nothing I have
ever seen anywhere else. I'm not going waste my online time trying
to make a point with people who twist my words to spew hatred. That
should make you happy. You are one pathetic piece of work.
Jeff Smith
The last late model Lexus I saw keys locked in it, they just pushed the remote
door unlock button on the keychain. The "WHIPP WHOOP" noise opens them every
time.
>
>
> "HOW TO OPEN A LATE MODEL LEXUS WITH A SLIM JIM"
With a Fire Department OSHA approved Slim Jim.
> 1. Insert your slim jim in the driver's side door, about 3" from the
> rear edge of the window.
This is a four man operation (NFPA 1500), and a safety officer. Before
approaching the car be sure to document your readings from your MSA Passport
atmospheric monitor as a non flammable area. Put decon on standby. Assume
command. Immediately set up resource and finance division to locate and procure
a ISO 9000 calibrated 12'' measuring device, with quarter inch increments.
> 2. Gently rock the slim jim from side to side while moving it up
> and down.
All side to side rocking must be done in a nonsexual and nonharrassingly way
as not offend the "customer". Be sure to place your nonslip work surface
directly below the lock as to prevent a disabilitating injury by the sudden
shifting of weight. Consult with your safety officer before attempting this
dandgerous maneuver, and verify that current operations parallel "S.O.P.'s"
("S.O.G.'s" if your from California).
> 3. When your slim jim hooks onto something, quickly yank the
> slim jim upwards.
Before "yanking" fixed object, obtain a model specific NTSB MSDS to check for
validation of effort as not to prolong exposure in said "Hot Zone" and prevent
duplication of effort. Assign a PIO to prevent the media onslaught which could
cause actions to become disrythmic.
> 4. Repeat step 3 until you no longer hook onto anything.
STOP RIGHT THERE! don't repeat until after New problem is Identified, data is
collected and analyzed, alternatives are developed and the best one selected,
then implement new solution, monitor results, and take corrective actions.
Form a committee.
> 5. Now, go to the passenger's side door and repeat the above.
> After all, it's mostly a matter of luck whether you hook onto
> the linkage, and working on two doors doubles your chances!
Report back to command and have crews report to rehab. New crews will be
assigned for passenger "sector" ("group" if you're from California). Review
pre-unlock plan before entering warm zone. Set up lights...it's getting dark by
now.
> 6. Next, explain to the car owner that he'll probably have to call
> a locksmith because this is one of those newfangled cars with
> nonstandard door locks. Remind him there's no charge for your
> best efforts to open his car; it's all part of his tax dollars at work.
When manpower is exhausted, reassign task, call in outside contractors to group
consult and provide the needed resources to complete said task. Have Incident
Commander hire overtime fire personnel for "lock watch". Advise "customer" that
you accept Mastercard® and Visa®.
> 7. Finally, explain to him that the fire department probably has
> governmental immunity, and not to bother sending in any claims
> for damage to the inside of his door. Besides, everybody knows
> a slim jim is a universally accepted car opening tool and you
> can't really break anything with it. If the citizen says anything, you
> can always remind him:
>
> "Hey, what do you want for nothing?"
The "customer" is always right, unless they void the entitled trust that
individual stupidity violates the right to free service provided by our city.
Contact City Legal Officer in anticipation that litigation will be pending and
that the news will be leading the 6:00 news with " Undercover: City Fire
Officials Caught Abusing Power By Denying Handicap Wrecker Driver's Civil
Rights to Earn Honest Days Wage, ADA Wrath to Follow".
Lastly, file a Workers Comp claim to reduce personal liability for providing
service in which you were not properly trained for and enter a CISD Debriefing
session.
I have to much time on my hands.
Jeff
FyrRsqOne
I am with an agency that responds to lock outs...we only go when a infant is
locked in a car. In Florida during the summer this is a life or death issue.
Sorry not waiting 30 minutes for a locksmith to show or not show.
I use a complete master lock set with slim jims and magic tools to perfrom
this action.
On using a Slim jim...bend bottom of slim jim about thirty degrees at a
point about eight inches from bottom...insert slim jim between window and
molding with bend inboard...manipulate tool until you see lock move slightly
then focus on that point until you get lock open...Note: all this garbage
you hear about slim jims do not work on new vehicles is garbage...over the
last two years I have had to open over 30 vehicles a majority newer cars and
trucks and have only had two that I could not get with a slim jim...practice
at local junk yard on a couple of vehicles with door panel off so you can
see what goes on will help.
Dave
Tom Whitehead wrote in message <34eb3f81...@news.dra.com>...
allan rich
In article <34EA3F...@mail.3rivers.net>,
Darwin Feakes <fea...@mail.3rivers.net> wrote:
>I am a volunteer fireman and that is what I do and don't even charge the
>person for the 10% of the time I am needed on the fire.
>
>
Wish I could be a volunteer locksmith but I have bills to pay and have to take my work very
seriously and also charge very seriously. Lets compare apples to apples ok.
Allan
David W Sutton
Matt Bancroft <ma...@MEC.Edu> wrote in article
> >ALL lockouts were referred to AAA or a locksmith.
>
> If the police could have opened the door for the poor sap that locked his
> keys in the car he probably could have saved around $50
So let me get this straight- I pay taxes which pay police salaries so they
can unlock cars- so I cant make money to pay taxes- ( If I did more car
opening than I do now )
>
> >Broken water pipes were referred to a plumber
> >Broken down cars were referred to a tow service.
>
> Ye, that's right just let the police call a tow service when they feel
like it.
> By the time you get your car back there's a good chance anything of value
in
> the car will be stolen, and your bare minimum fee for the tow/night's
storage
> will be in excess of $100. You'll get a much better deal if you can pick
> and choose the tow service yourself. The police usually act from a list
> of approved wreckers with exhorbitant fees, and in many areas its rumored
> you need to give the cops the proper kickbacks to get on the list
I would say this stupid statement is pretty much false. Im not sure where
you get your figures but most " schedule wreckers" are on a set fee for
most police departments. What the hell does this have to do with
locksmithing anyway?
.
>
> I don't really see why the police/firefighters shouldn't be able to open
cars
> using a slimjim set, after all their response time is usually a lot
better than
> a locksmith's.
Usually a police department will have more officers on duty getting paid by
the tax payers to protect the city, not unlock cars, fix broken plumbing,
change tires, replace broken light bulbs, cook dinner, tow cars, sweep
streets, there are services that do all of these things but the police
department is not designed to be a car unlocking service.
Using a slimjim set doesn't take a whole lot of know how,
You work around me dont you !!! You are the guy that unlocked that Toyota
Previa Van that I charged 150.00 to repair the slim jim attempted opening.
in
> most cases just read the instruction book that lists the year/model of
the
> vehicle and then use the appropriate tool from the door opener set and
you'll
> be able to open a large number of cars.
Another statement that shows what a retard you are about any car opening
procedures..... what kind of instruction booklet comes with a slim Jim ???
I bet the next thing you will do is write a book telling everyone how to
unlock cars and make thousands of dollars....
>
> Admitedly some cars may require other steps to get the door open. Some
things
> im aware of that the police probably can't do or don't have the proper
> tools. But for a run of the mill mid 80's buick like i have a cop with
> a slimjim would do fine. If the cop can't open it then call the
locksmith.
You are one of "those" arent you ! the kind of idiot that calls me in the
middle of the night to ask if you can borrow my slim jim, the something for
nothing crowd, the " your prices are too high club. Evidently you have no
concept of what it take to run a service business. My phone bill alone is
400.00 per month but you think $35.00 is too much to pay to drive a $25,000
van with 40,000 dollars worth of equiptment, $8000.00 worth of inventory,
and spend 30 to 45 minutes of my time to come out and service YOU ! To be
real honest, I hope you dont ever call me for service because you deserve
to have your door destroyed by someone with a slim jim . THIS is the reason
most Police/Fire ect departments quit trying to open cars in the first
place, because of cheap ass " get it for free " lets bother the Police (
who have plenty to do besides fixing your stupidity) and try to hold them
responsible when they do try ( for free)and damage your car, just take your
food stamp using, government cheese eating, beat the system so I dont have
to pay for anything that was my fault ass on down the road to the
government housing provided for you and shut up.
David Sutton
Affordable Locksmith
Bob De Weese
Tom Whitehead wrote:
>
> We always use a carpenters punch on a side window. BTW
> firefighters never go out unless it is an emergency so you can save
>the bullshit about taking money out of your pocket. When we opened
> doors it was because life and property were in danger. NOW can you
> relate?
Yes I _can_ relate to **emergency** openings.
Around here up until a couple of years ago fire fighters and police
opened cars on a daily basis. The only reason they stopped was the fact
that the law suits were starting to ad up. Before that they (the Fire
Dept.) would roll on a normal (non-emergency) lockout when ever someone
dialed 911 and they weren't busy. They sent a guy (or two) out in a
little jeep with a whole set of opening tools.
On three seperate occations I drove ten miles (one way) to a particular
mall to let someone into there car, only to hear, "they're gone. The
fire depatrment let them in", when I arrived. They didn't even have the
courtesy to call and cancell. BTW - On one of those occations, I turned
down another job in the oposite direction so I got screwed twice. Is
that fair?
I HAVE __NO__ PROBLEM with firefighters, police, etc., opening a car in
a _true_ emergency. I'll even buy, "My groceries are melting" as an
emergency.
However, I don't consider, "I can't afford/don't want to pay for a
locksmith", an emergency. Do you?
BTW - I too, open cars anytime - anywhere - FOR FREE - when a child is
locked inside.
Bobby
Bob De Weese
Big Jim wrote:
> Maybe they will take 30 min. to show up to your fire call next tome,
> too. You have options as a businessman - quit doing lockouts, get a
> credit card # before you roll and charge a no-show fee. Deal with it
> but don't dis emergency servicves.
Nobody's "dissin'" *emergency* services here. You must be missing the
point. We are reffering to *NON-emergency* situations _only_.
Bob De Weese
Tom Whitehead wrote:
>
> Don't be sorry. Taking money out of the pocket of an asshole like
> him would be a public service. Not all locksmiths are like him. I have
>> only been studying locksmithing for about two months now and I have
> had a lot of help from many good locksmiths.
Asshole? You have no idea what you're talking about. Anyone who knows
me will tell you that you are mistaken. I've given countless hours to
this industry. One of the things I best known for (nationally) is
helping locksmiths who are just starting out. You really shouldn't be
so quick to judge people. Or is everyone who dissagrees with you an
asshole?
Interfering with anyone's living *when it is not justified* is just
plain wrong. (And you call _me_ an asshole?)
Bob De Weese
Tom Whitehead wrote:
> You
> deliberately twisted everything I wrote.These constant childish
> insults and daily spewing of hatred at people is like nothing I have
> ever seen anywhere else.
This... from a guy that just called _me_ an asshole. :)
Bob De Weese
Tom Whitehead wrote:
> This
> bullshit of accusing people of robbing you when you have no idea of
> the circumstances is just evidence of greed.
Once again, Tommy, nobody is knocking fire fighters for opening cars *in
an emergency*.
Bob De Weese
Tom Whitehead wrote:
> My objection
> was in this blanket and preposterous accusation that law enforcement
> and other emergency services are trying to steal money from
> locksmiths.
For the record... I _never_ said anything about "stealing" the money.
Go back and check. _I said_, " take (the money) _and throw it away".
No you don't "steal" it, but we certainly lose it.
Nor did I say anything about opening cars in *true* emergency
situations.
David W Sutton
While I dont think anyone is complaing about emergency openings, The 30
minute thing- lets see I bet you CAN get to a call faster with a big red
truck with a bunch of red lights and a siren. Hmm pretty basic there, I
will say that when I have a call with a child in the car
1) I dont charge for the service in the first place,
2) I dont waste any time getting there ( yes I do speed depanding on road
conditions, traffic) I drop what Im doing in other words.
3) I have NEVER damaged a door, linkage, wires, or window track and if you
say that you have opened all these vehicle with no damage to the components
of a late model vehicle using a slim jim you are either lying or dont know
it , I fix a bunch of them due to such emergency services. You see my
friend there is a difference between getting a door open with a slim jim
and opening a car with no damage.
David Sutton
Affordable Locksmith
FyrRsqOne <fyr...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
<6chnr7$d1$1...@gte1.gte.net>...
Pro Lock
C'mon Dave, If you are unhappy about this, why didn't you say so?
Ha Ha!
JV
MCLOCKSMTH
Gee Matt.....
I sure hope you don't think that we locksmiths just sit around waiting for a
vehicle lock out call. Most of us are usually out doing some other worthless
thing like securing an elderly persons home with deadbolts, or helping out a
vandalized or burglarized store owner get a building secured. Unfortunately,
it is a living......one that we enjoy. And those of you that DON'T understand
the pride that we have and the comraderie (for example the brainless idiots
that write here requesting lockpick sets and car opening tools that have NO
reason to possess such tools) of our business, need to look somewhere else for
sympathy. We have none for those that slash and demeanor our livelyhood. Just
my opinion.......heheheh.......but I think you are full of shit and like to
blow smoke. We locksmiths are just sitting back and laughing at you.......and
you don't even know it.
MCLOC...@aol.com
Wondering today (as always)......if you throw cats out of a car window, is it
considered kitty litter?
Jon, W4ABC
I work for a Dept. here in West Central Florida, and we respond to all.
This is coined customer service, and is part of the gig. When one is
looking for a pay raise in an atmosphere of "organized begging," with the
lack of "binding arbitration," one does not question the customer.
When we have a difficult door to open, and it is not too hot for the child,
and they seem to be in little distress, then we call the "on rotation
locksmith." They show up on scene, and make us look silly. They charge no
money and are the true professionals when it comes to doing what they do.
Self satisfaction and a sense of accomplishment, along with the fact that
their truck is a moving advertisement are their only pay.
Jon
David W Sutton wrote in message <01bd3d96$b3c590e0$1ffb2499@computername>...
FyrRsqOne
First: I dont lie its in bad taste.
Second: I always check the lock mechanism and window after removing the
infant to ensure I have not caused any damage.
Third: I never said or asked if you do charge for the service or not.
Fourth: Yes people who do not take the time and effort to train properly
can, will and do cause damage...however is the damage more or less than
using a center punch on a window to gain entry?
Fidth: Speeding is dangerous..Most Emergency service agencies only speed
when there is a life threatening situation where their prescence will make a
difference to the outcome of the scene. They use vehicles clearly
identifiable as emergency vehicles with warning lights and sirens. So in
simple terms you risk your life and the lifes of innocent citizens to go to
a scene. And you do this for free. Hmmmmm....whats wrong with this picture.
And finally...We in the Emergency Services place Priority in LIFE over
PROPERTY...that is our basic purpose, so if you get more work because we had
to do some damage to save a life...whats the problem....
Thanks,
And have a great day
Dave
Matthew T. Russotto
In article <19980221012...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
MCLOCKSMTH <mcloc...@aol.com> wrote:
}Gee Matt.....
}I sure hope you don't think that we locksmiths just sit around waiting for a
}vehicle lock out call. Most of us are usually out doing some other worthless
}thing like securing an elderly persons home with deadbolts, or helping out a
}vandalized or burglarized store owner get a building secured.
That's good, locking the barn door after the horse escapes.
} Unfortunately,
}it is a living......one that we enjoy. And those of you that DON'T understand
}the pride that we have and the comraderie (for example the brainless idiots
}that write here requesting lockpick sets and car opening tools that have NO
}reason to possess such tools) of our business
It's this guild mentality that upsets me. Even plumbers don't try to
prevent the sale of pipe wrenches.
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."
MCLOCKSMTH
Sorry Matt.......
Can't agree.......
If your teeth hurt.....do you go to a plumber?
If you break a leg.....do you go to a carpenter?
If my house is on fire.......do I call Roto Rooter?
Sorry if those of us without the proper mental intellect cannot appease your
self-effacing ego. But.....I would gather that the MAJORITY of us locksmiths
have more COMMON SENSE in our little fingers than you have in your whole self.
Just my opinion........
Bob De Weese
Jon, W4ABC wrote:
>
> I work for a Dept. here in West Central Florida, and we respond to
>all. This is coined customer service, and is part of the gig.
I'd buy this **non_emergency** car opening as "a public service", if
those same public servents would start carrying a plunger along with
that slim jim. ;)
Many of us have said this and it bears repeating. Nobody here is
knocking anyone for opening a car with a child locked inside, etc. It's
_just_ the non-emergency openings that we are talking about losing us
income. Most of us don't charge when a child is locked in the car,
anyway.
Bobby
Bob De Weese
Matthew T. Russotto wrote:
> Even plumbers don't try to
> prevent the sale of pipe wrenches.
Probably because public servants don't come to your house and do
non-emergency plumbing repairs. :)
Roger A. Cann
Funny thing happened once...
I heard on the scanner a 10-85 call (Lockout)
It seems a baby was locked in a car on a hot
summer afternoon, It was on my way to a job
so I figured what the hell right.
So As I'm Pulling up a fireman with his excavation
tool (self loading center punch) was beside the car
And before I could get out the car "snap"
and there went the window and out came the baby.
The lady was ecstatic but was happy to get her kid out.
The fireman said "If I had a slim jim I would have used it.
In cases like these it doesn't bother me to see the law or
the local Fire department use a slim jim. Cause lets face it,
There's not always a locksmith available or around when
you need one.
(just like the law)
$0.02 worth.
R. Cann
FyrRsqOne
I understand and respect your professional consideration and
generosity...and in Northern climates 20 minutes may not mean a lot however
in Florida at 90 degrees and 100 percent humidity time becomes a issue. I
have no interest in taking work from any Professional, Locksmiths included
(Note: One of my fellow Firefighters is a profesional Locksmith specializing
in safes, etc.) However as stated, in our line of work, Life Safety is the
First and utmost priority...then comes the protection of property. If I have
time I would rather wait for a Professional Locksmith who can assume the
responsibility for any damage..however in most cases between the upset child
and the very upset parent I do not have the time...
Best wishes
Be Safe,
Dave
Bob De Weese wrote in message <34EF48...@erols.com>...
>Jon, W4ABC wrote:
>>
>> I work for a Dept. here in West Central Florida, and we respond to
>>all. This is coined customer service, and is part of the gig.
>
>
>I'd buy this **non_emergency** car opening as "a public service", if
>those same public servents would start carrying a plunger along with
>that slim jim. ;)
>
>Many of us have said this and it bears repeating. Nobody here is
>knocking anyone for opening a car with a child locked inside, etc. It's
>_just_ the non-emergency openings that we are talking about losing us
>income. Most of us don't charge when a child is locked in the car,
>anyway.
>
>
>Bobby
Matthew T. Russotto
}I'd buy this **non_emergency** car opening as "a public service", if
}those same public servents would start carrying a plunger along with
}that slim jim. ;)
I hear they do in New York City.
Bob De Weese
FyrRsqOne wrote:
>..however in most cases between the upset child
> and the very upset parent I do not have the time...
> Best wishes
> Be Safe,
> Dave
I understand and whole heartedly agree. The sooner a child is let out
of a locked car the better no matter who opens it or how they do it.
Just for clarity though, let me ask you this one direct question; How
do you feel about opening a locked car with _no one_ inside?
Bob De Weese
Matthew T. Russotto wrote:
>
> In article <34EF48...@erols.com>, Bob De Weese <bear...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> }I'd buy this **non_emergency** car opening as "a public service", if
> }those same public servents would start carrying a plunger along with
> }that slim jim. ;)
>
> I hear they do in New York City.
No shit? (Pardon the pun)
FyrRsqOne
We don't end of subject.
Now me as a nice person has been known to do it but not as a FireFighter or
on a call.
We only respond to a infant in car any other problem we tell them to call
you...:)
Dave
Bob De Weese wrote in message <34F01A...@erols.com>...
>FyrRsqOne wrote:
>
>>..however in most cases between the upset child
>> and the very upset parent I do not have the time...
>> Best wishes
>> Be Safe,
>> Dave
>
>
>I understand and whole heartedly agree. The sooner a child is let out
>of a locked car the better no matter who opens it or how they do it.
>
>Just for clarity though, let me ask you this one direct question; How
>do you feel about opening a locked car with _no one_ inside?
>
>
>Bobby
Mark Watson
Bob De Weese <bear...@erols.com> wrote:
>>Tom Whitehead wrote:
>>>
>>> We always use a carpenters punch on a side window. BTW
>>> firefighters never go out unless it is an emergency so you can save
>>>the bullshit about taking money out of your pocket. When we opened
>>> doors it was because life and property were in danger. NOW can you
>>> relate?
>>
Do you consider it an emergency opening when the vehicle is running and the
inside is comfortable because the air or heat are on? If you damage a vehicle
who pays for the repair? Do you know which vehicles are now equipped with side
air bags? What if a vehicle you attempted to open had damage and the owner was
involved in an accident and couldn't get out? Sure there's the "jaws of life"
but it takes time to get to the accident.
I have seen emergency personnel trying to open a vehicle that was running, and
the child was very comfortable in the a/c. Oh yeah, they knocked off linkages
in the driver's door. Made life much more difficult for the owner of the
vehicle until it was fixed.
There are times to attempt to open vehicles because it is a life threatening
emergency, and there are times to consider the circumstances and wait. Yes, I
know everyone gets upset and excited, we all have families and can understand
someone's distress, who wouldn't? But I have also seen calm people who
understand when the child is not in danger, these have been both emergency
personnel and parents.
My point is this, think. Then act. Best way to handle it, don't you agree?
sw
Tech_Guy
The best case I have ever had in this subject was about 15 years ago
when I was a Volunteer Firefighter a woman locked herself out of her car
nearby where I had just fought a fire. I handed her my card and said
"this guy will respond pretty fast and he is the best Locksmith I know"
She called and I was paged. I ran to a phone got the message. Threw off
my turnout gear, jumped into my truck and returned to her location. She
looked at me and stared for a moment , said "you look very familiar" and
I smiled and went about my business. After I was finished, I looked her
right in the face, She said "I hope I never have to call you again" I
said "at least not for this circumstance" She said "I'm sorry, I didn't
mean it that way...Your friend was right" I said" 'bout what?" she said
"Your Fireman friend said to call you because you are fast and you are
good" In an effort not to embarass her, I did not admit that I was the
same guy
In response to the guy that had experienced the 20-30 minute ride to
find the lock already opened, You could tell the customer that you get
paid the sum of $xx.xx for the travel and the sum of $xx.xx for opening
the lock. This leaves you the opportunity to still charge them if they
agreed to use your services. (The Electricians, Plumbers, Heating & Air
Conditioning guys have done this for years the customer may grumble, but
will nine out of ten pay because they did agree to it)
Reminder to the cops and firemen. My lawn needs mowing and the fence
needs painting. If they have enough time to do lockouts, free for my
customers, they must have enough time for household chores, free for me.
Tech Guy
Jon W4ABC
Bob De Weese wrote in message <34F01A...@erols.com>...
>FyrRsqOne wrote:
>
>>..however in most cases between the upset child
>> and the very upset parent I do not have the time...
>> Best wishes
>> Be Safe,
>> Dave
>
>
>I understand and whole heartedly agree. The sooner a child is let out
>of a locked car the better no matter who opens it or how they do it.
>
>Just for clarity though, let me ask you this one direct question; How
>do you feel about opening a locked car with _no one_ inside?
>
>
I can't honestly say that we have ever been dispatched for that kind of
call. I believe that the 911 operators must filter that kind of response.
Jon Pearl
JDHowell
"General Motor's ON-STAR system, where they can unlock a car via satalite."
Is this for real? I havn't hear about this yet....Tell me more!
Rescue wrote:
> I imagene your just going to love General Motor's ON-STAR system, where
> they can unlock a car via satalite. I suppose you'll accuse them of
> stealing your business.
>
> --
Jesse S. Hopkins
I am curious if anybody has a slim jim that actuallyis easy to use for
newer model cars.. Also, what other entry methods besides picking are
commonly used?
I have a set of jiggler keys (10 keys) for automobiles.... I am curious as
to what key opens what car?! I can only figure out how to do my own and
many other fords (Ford Ranger 96, Escort 95, Mustang 96) but I hsvr nott
figured out which keys work on any other cars- therefore if a friend who
does not have on of these cars has locked himself out I cn not offer
help... Any info?
Thank you...
Question : Hondas and Lexus's are some of the most stolen cars in the
world- but why?
Joseph Kesselman
> I am curious if anybody has a slim jim that actuallyis easy to use for
> newer model cars.
Brief answer: No. Auto makers have deliberately made this more difficult.
Which is a good thing for all us car owners.There are tools that work on newer
cars. But no one tool that works onall cars.... and even when the same tool
opens several cars, it may be used in
very different ways on each one. It's also a lot easier to damage the door
linkages, or wiring, or even set off the side-mounted airbag if you don't know
_exactly_ what you're doing. So there's a much higher investment in
education, and in tools, now required.
> I have a set of jiggler keys (10 keys) for automobiles.... I am curious as
> to what key opens what car?!
Jiggler keys are not keys, but a kind of lockpick. They won't open most
cars "by themselves"; there's some skill involved in using them. There is no
way
to predict which one will open which car. If you have a set of 10, it doesn't
open "automobiles". It may open _some_ automobiles, on a good day, if you know
what you're doing. They're not useless, but they certainly aren't automatic.
That's about as much detail as I'm willing to go into over the net. If you've
got a legitimate reason for having these (including being a serious hobbyist),
you should have gotten instructions at the same time you got the tools.
Harry Mahan
Funny thing about cops & firefighters....I'd bet they wouldn't go to work
if they didn't get paid !
Unfortunately, I'm also paying their salary and don't like to pay for
competition. (There's actually a federal law against any municipality
charging for a business lisc and then directly competing with that
business! Too bad it dosen't have any Enforcement" behind it.) It's true,
I checked!
Anyway, I guess they're (the cops/firemen)
greedy, too. IMHO Of course, the volunteer types do it for the ego
fix...(do you realise most arson fires are set by volunteer firefighters
looking to act as heros?) The cops also (and the "friend" who knocks $
500 dollars off the resale value of the vehicle as he says "just 5 more
minutes...I think I'll be able to get it in just five more minutes" as he
jacks a slimJim off in the door....has been for 45 minutes!
If it's a REAL emergency...baby in car with engine running in garage...it's
break the window time!!! I'll even do it in a deadbolted beamer. in a
pair of seconds!!
Pro Lock
>t's this guild mentality that upsets me. Even plumbers don't try to
>prevent the sale of pipe wrenches.
Matt:
You can buy all the door knobs,screw drivers, and drill bits you want.
I don't see the relationship between plumbers and locksmiths,however.
JV
Pro Lock
>AND just for fun, what happens when the battery goes dead, besides the
>fact you just bought a $1,000 stereo? NOTHING WORKS..
Thats right Siva,
Look at the people who have the "keyless entry "systems that don't work 10
minutes after the warrantee expires!
And how can they test "on star" to see if it will work?
And who cares about newer cars that are covered by factory ERS anyway? Unless
you work for the factory ERS services, you don't have a customer there, either.
JV
Pro Lock
>You have a 800 number and a pin number and you subscribe to it.
>$30-40 a month, so I heard.
Well that sure is a savings over a locksmith, or fireman I'd say....
JV
Pro Lock
>do you realise most arson fires are set by volunteer firefighters
>looking to act as heros?)
Gotta stop you on this one Harry.
Must have been a typo, or a poor choice of words.
If not, I think you may be in for a bit of heat.
JV
Tech_Guy
Jesse S. Hopkins wrote in message ...
:Question : Hondas and Lexus's are some of the most stolen cars in the
:world- but why?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
The parts ! Many times, they are stripped down and sold off for the
individual parts (some of the parts are even shipped out of the country)
Cheap Lexus for parts (approximate street prices)
Air bag $300
Set of Wheels & Tires $ 500
Windshield Glass $100
AM/FM Radio - CDplayer $150 (add on the electric antenna $50)
Engine (whole) $1200
Transmission $1000
Body Panels from $100 to $300 ea.
Need I say more?
Tech_Guy
Great!
There was an 'Urban Rumor' that GM built a sensor into the odometer that
would cause things to start failing just after the warrantee period. Now
thay dont need to build that sesnor in anymore. The unsuspecting
customer just paid an extra $1500 to have a remote control installed to
do the same thing.
They can read your mileage, and get a data feed of the entire systems
diagnostics, determine your driving patterns and even determine where
you are located. Don't commit a crime while you own one of these cars.
You will lose your alibi the instant the DA presents the OnStar report
to the jury.
Sounds to me like a real case of what George wrote is supposed to happen
in "1984"
Needless to say, the mobsters, drug dealers and pimps are probably not
aware that the onStar system can track your car down to a 300 foot
radius. If they don't buy the DeVilles, who will?
aa...@_no.spam.deltanet.com
In <6cvcl7$m6a$7...@208.207.70.75>, shiv...@pcis.net ( --- Shiva ---) writes:
>I would have to agree, there is that OCCASIONAL story, NOT ALL, but
>the occasional fireman on an ego trip OR is paid per call that DOES
>start the fires..Seems I remember one that set 50 or so some years
>back...Finally got caught.. DERN, they 'slapped his wrist'..was all.
Like any other profession, there are occasional rotten apples in the
fire service. Out here in California, they caught a full-time city
firefighter a few years back setting fires. To top it off, he was
the city's chief arson investigator. This guy even stopped off on his
way back from a meeting of arson investigators to set a fire.
But, they also caught a locksmith a few years back breaking into
the safe at the local DMV office.
Billy B. Edwards Jr.
I don't think so. I read in a press release for it that there is an
up-front cost of $850 for the onboard phone and the same release said
the monthly subscription was nearer $120 per month. Believe I'd have to
lock out every time to justify that. :-)
BBE.
Billy B. Edwards Jr.
Harry Mahan wrote:
>
> (There's actually a federal law against any municipality
> charging for a business lisc and then directly competing with that
> business! Too bad it dosen't have any Enforcement" behind it.) It's true,
> I checked!
Harry, do you know the code on that? I'd like to look it up myself.
Thanks.
BBE.
Dave Hinz
Let's keep some perspective here.
First: Any firefighter or EMT who bothers with a slim-jim in
an emergency situation is an idiot. We all know what the $7.00
tool is which deals with the situation instantly, and in an
emergency it is just plain irresponsible to do anything but
to get in to the vehicle *RIGHT NOW*.
Second: Us firefighters and EMT's aren't on some kind of
vendetta against locksmiths, some grand conspiracy theory,
trying to keep you from feeding your children or whatever
the current accusation is.
Third: Lighten way the heck up, wouldja? On both sides!
Fourth: Any fire department that would respond to a "locked out
of my car" call deserves what it gets. Yeah, it might be good
P.R., but it's a very, very poor use of fire department resources.
Also damned hard to explain to Mrs. Smith why her house burned down
because you were off across town somewhere playing slim-jim on some
idiot's Beemer.
Now that I've vented, let me say that we do have a locksmith who
we have an "agreement" with, that if we are called to a location
with a reported problem (fire alarm or whatever), he'll come out
and get us in, *if the situation warrants the delay*. If not,
we have more physical ways of bypassing the locks. Again, it's
a judgement call, but if Mr. Locksmith going to be 1/2 hour, and
we might have a fire cooking in the house, guess how we're going
to get in? Would you want to be the one explaining the delay to
Mrs. Smith? Not me!
So - having said all this, I make a pledge:
"I won't play locksmith at fire calls. If I need to get in that badly,
they'll need more than a locksmith to fix what I do to get in."
David J. Hinz, EMT-DEA,BTLS
Asst. Fire Chief
Helenville, Wisconsin Fire Department
The Brass Key Shop
> Just out of curiousity, how many cars have you unlocked without first
> obtaining proof that the car is actually the customer's car???? If you
> have, that makes you an accessory to Grand Theft....Cops and
> Firefighters are exempt due to government immunity.
>
Answer - NONE
However you need to check your law. Cops and Firefighters are NOT exempt
due to government immunity. The courts have said that if you do not use
reasonable means to ascertain ownership that you are negligent in the
performance of your duties and are therefore liable. And unless your
insurance is written up that this is part of your duties, your insurance
company can (and will) leave you high and dry.
Bill Mandlebaum, CPL
FyrRsqOne
Exception being Emergency Situations where life/property is in Danger.
The same way a Fire Dept. can enter your house when you are not home.
Dave
The Brass Key Shop wrote in message ...
Bob De Weese
Rescue wrote:
> And without a transmiter, no one can track you down to
> 300 foot radius.
Haven't you seen the commercial where the nice On-Star lady tells the
poor lost motorist, "...turn right at the next intersection and proceed
3/4 of a mile to your destination".
Supposedly, in the near future, the the car will automaticly call for
emergency services, (police and EMTs) the moment the air bag deploys, in
the event that the occupants of the vehicle are incapasitated. Now this
may not be GM, but some other auto company. I can't remember who, off
hand. The operator will call the local 911 dispatcher and give the
exact location of the accident.
Bob De Weese
Rescue wrote:
>
> You are correct and I did not mean to imply that cops and/or
> firefighters were immune under the non-emergency situations.
And you said you don't open them in non-emergency situations. Right?
No fire department would do that.
>Our fire department will only open a locked car if a sheriff is present
>and gets it ok'd prior with his superior. The sheriff is responsible
>for ascertaining legal ownership. We just do the dirty deed.
You mean in an emergency situation, you wait to varify ownership before
you let a child out of a locked car? The seems a little silly.
Joseph Kesselman, yclept Keshlam
JDHowell wrote:
>
> "General Motor's ON-STAR system, where they can unlock a car via satalite."
>
> Is this for real? I havn't hear about this yet....Tell me more!
You haven't been watching enough TV ads... It's real. Expensive,
but real.
It's a combination of a group of satellite-modem carried
features, ranging from voice (push a button and say "I'm
lost" and someone comes on the line, picks your location off
the satellite grid and tells you where to go) to some remote
diagnostics to, yes, the ability to remotely command the
electric locks.
Obviously, the unlock signal is cryptographically
protected and has timeouts after false attempts so it can't
be spoofed, and just as obviously they're going to require
that you call in and provide sufficient identification to
prove that you are in fact the registered owner of the car
before they send out the signal.
I don't know how well it's actually selling. But it's a
cute concept.
By the way, I've set the followup for this to alt.locksmithing,
since I suspect most firefighters aren't all that interested.
danny burstein
all this talk about Slim Jims, etc., reminded me of aa small incident when
I was paramedicing in NYC.
while EMS was a separate third service, we routinely carried police
portables and listened/transmitted as needed.
police radio: (unit) 3-6 Nora to central
dispatcher: 3-6 nora, proceed
radio: can you advise if any 36-unit is avaialble with a slim-jim to
assist a locked-out motorist?
dispatcher: umm, 3-6 nora, aren't you carrying a slim jim?
[silence]
then we keyed up the mike: EMS to central, we're in the area, ask 3-6 nora
for their location and we'll come by and help them with their, umm,
motorist...
(unit designations changed to protect the klutzy)
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
aa...@_no.spam.deltanet.com
In <Pine.SOL.3.91.980225...@woody.wcnet.org>, The Brass Key Shop <bras...@wcnet.org> writes:
>> Just out of curiousity, how many cars have you unlocked without first
>> obtaining proof that the car is actually the customer's car???? If you
>> have, that makes you an accessory to Grand Theft....Cops and
>> Firefighters are exempt due to government immunity.
>>
>Answer - NONE
>However you need to check your law. Cops and Firefighters are NOT exempt
>due to government immunity.
The principle of "government immunity" is pretty much dead, except for
the federal government. It died off because the courts perceived it as
unfair, because cities can buy liability insurance, and for other reasons.
In those jurisdictions which still honor governmental immunity, there
are often severe limits on it. One limitation is to provide immunity
for discretionary acts, such as deciding whether to unlock a car (meaning,
no liability if they decide not to open the car), but not to allow
immunity once they decide to do something (meaning, once they
undertake to unlock the car, they're responsible for their own negligence).
Another limitation, where governmental immunity is still honored, is to
allow immunity for actions only a government agency can do (police
service, etc.), but not to allow immunity for activities both a government
agency and a private business could perform (like operating a hospital,
for example).
So, don't think for a moment that city employees can do whatever the
hell they please and thumb their noses at the public on grounds of
"governmental immunity." That was true once, but not anymore.
aa...@_no.spam.deltanet.com
In <6d1ck9$3rm$4...@gte2.gte.net>, Rescue <res...@gte.net> writes:
>And without a transmiter, no one can track you down to
>300 foot radius.
I don't know the exact capabilities of the OnStar system, but it would
be pretty easy to do a tracking system with a GPS receiver and a
cell phone. The GPS figures out where you are, and transmits the
data to a monitoring center by cell phone.
I think Lincoln was offering this sort of system with two panic buttons
on the visor: push one, and they send the cops to your location, push
the other, and they send you a tow truck. No voice contact required.
Also, the cellular companies are being required to develop systems
which will locate the source of any cell phone call within, I believe,
700 feet. That's to track down the source of an unknown 911 call.
I think that's supposed to be in place within a few years.
John & Margaret Strowe
Tech_Guy wrote:
>
> They can read your mileage, and get a data feed of the entire systems
> diagnostics, determine your driving patterns and even determine where
> you are located. Don't commit a crime while you own one of these cars.
> You will lose your alibi the instant the DA presents the OnStar report
> to the jury.
Don't have a cell phone (especially one of the new PCS phones) turned on
if you intend to be on the wrong side of the law either. They can, or
will, be able to do very much the same thing.
John
Bob De Weese
danny burstein wrote:
>
>
> dispatcher: umm, 3-6 nora, aren't you carrying a slim jim?
>
> [silence]
>
> then we keyed up the mike: EMS to central, we're in the area, ask 3-6 nora
> for their location and we'll come by and help them with their, umm,
> motorist...
>
> (unit designations changed to protect the klutzy)
I opened a Cavalier for Balto City Police once just for shits-n-giggles.
I was sitting at a light and noticed four uniformed officers (one at
each door) "churning butter". Three others in uniform and two
(presumably) detectives in plain clothes, "supervising". Typical for
Baltimore City employees ;)
When the light changed I pulled up and asked, "need any help?"
Yeah! (from several)
I walked up with one wedge and a Horz. linkage tool (didn't want to show
them my hole bag of tricks) and opened it in about ten seconds.
"Thanks!", they said. "We owe you one."
"No problem", I replied. "Just remember my truck." ;) As I drove off
they were still trying to get two of the slim-jims out of the doors.
Barry Everett McClung
Well, I guess that means I can't commit a crime while driving my
ambulance...we've got automatic vehicle locators on all the rigs... :-)
--
Barry E. McClung, FF/EMT-I
Round Mountain, Texas
bmcc...@texanet.net
John & Margaret Strowe wrote in message <34F55F...@geocities.com>...
Tech_Guy
aa-2@_no.spam.deltanet.com wrote in message
<6d2dln$4eg$6...@news01.deltanet.com>...
:In <6d1ck9$3rm$4...@gte2.gte.net>, Rescue <res...@gte.net> writes:
:>And without a transmiter, no one can track you down to
:>300 foot radius.
:
:I don't know the exact capabilities of the OnStar system, but it would
:be pretty easy to do a tracking system with a GPS receiver and a
:cell phone. The GPS figures out where you are, and transmits the
:data to a monitoring center by cell phone.
The term is "Proximate Telemetry."(a somewhat more elaborate system
including voice and inventory data is used by UPS FedEx & Airborne) The
system uses a database of all cellular site locations and with a system
that uses the signal strength recieved by all of the nearby cell sites
can be used to locate can notify a dispatcher where the vehicle is
located to a range of 300'. The system can be used to transmit all kinds
of data to a dispatch desk including the exact speed and engine fluids
and temperature and a lot more. If you are really interested visit the
page of http://www.geotek.com which manufactures the unit for industrial
applications. Their brand names for the product are MobileManifestTM
and Driver Logistics SystemsTM.
Yes as the OnStar is nothing more than a "crippled" version of a Driver
Logistics SystemsTM.
it is capable of many of the same features including opening the doors
and starting or stalling the engine, speed control etc.
Did anyone hear yet that the police are currently using electronic speed
traps and tracking the violators thru EZPass? Yes they are! The speed
traps have a detector for each lane and detects speed above the limit
and if an EZPass is installed on the dash it transmits the account#
which is cross references to the EZPass client records and then the
police mail the Speeding Ticket to the "car owners" home. The one thing
that might put an end to this practice is the fact that the owner may
not have been the driver at the time detected although there are cameras
at most of these locations to dispute this defense. A big stink being
made about it by the ACLU. Maybe the first positive thing that the ACLU
has ever done.
Billy B. Edwards Jr.
Rescue wrote:
>
> aa-2@_no.spam.deltanet.com wrote:
> >
> > In <6d1ck9$3rm$4...@gte2.gte.net>, Rescue <res...@gte.net> writes:
> > >And without a transmiter, no one can track you down to
> > >300 foot radius.
> >
> > I don't know the exact capabilities of the OnStar system, but it would
> > be pretty easy to do a tracking system with a GPS receiver and a
> > cell phone. The GPS figures out where you are, and transmits the
> > data to a monitoring center by cell phone.
> >
> > on the visor: push one, and they send the cops to your location, push
> > the other, and they send you a tow truck. No voice contact required.
> >
> > Also, the cellular companies are being required to develop systems
> > which will locate the source of any cell phone call within, I believe,
> > 700 feet. That's to track down the source of an unknown 911 call.
> > I think that's supposed to be in place within a few years.
>
> the system you are describing, it is available, but you have to activate
> it. It isn't automatic as you suggest. For if it were, you would have a
> mighty big cell phone bill.
>
> --
> ....I Love Animals
> They taste "GREAT"....
Actually it may be active now. Remember that a cell phone is in near
continuous contact with the cellular network WHENEVER it is on. That's
just so the network knows that you are active and in the area. How else
do you think the cell phone knows to tell you you are 'on' or 'roving'?
BBE.
Henry E Schaffer
In article <6db422$al1$1...@gte1.gte.net>, Rescue <res...@gte.net> wrote:
>Billy B. Edwards Jr. wrote:
>
>> Actually it may be active now. Remember that a cell phone is in near
>> continuous contact with the cellular network WHENEVER it is on. That's
>> just so the network knows that you are active and in the area. How else
>> do you think the cell phone knows to tell you you are 'on' or 'roving'?
>> BBE.
>
>active.
The cell transmitters do know where you are whenever the cell phone is
on and you aren't "scanning". But the cell equipment doesn't (yet) tell
the operator (or anyone else) where you are. This is a capability which
is being prepared for delivery. Once this is all installed, then
tracking a person via their cell phone location will become much
easier.
--
--henry schaffer
h...@ncsu.edu
Bob De Weese
Rescue wrote:
>
> It's late, and I'm a little cranky, so here it is, listen up ass wipe,
> if there is a infant or child in a locked car, I wouldn't stop to use
>a fricken slim jim, the glass is history.
Hey ASSHOLE, Get your threads straight!!!! _I_ never said ANYTHING
about you opening them when a kid's in the car!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you're "cranky" go to bed! Don't take your shit out on me. I had a
bad day too you stupid, misserable son of a bitch!
Now YOU listen up. Open _all_ the fucking cars you want. I don't give
a shit. Clear enough you piss poor excuse excuse for human being.
> End of Story,
Fuck YOU!
> who needs a
> overpriced whining locksmith, when glass is quicker, and cheaper!
Yeah. That's it. Break a $100 piece of glass in a
***___non___-emergency*** (clear enough that time?) situation. What a
morron.
>
> END OF ARGUEMENT...
I sure as fuck hope so!
Bobby
My appologies to EVERYONE else. Most of you know that I am not normally
like this. I hardly ever resort to name calling, (especially of this
magnatude), but this asshole just rattled my cage at the wrong time.
Geez! If you can't follow a tread stay out of the conversation.
BTW - S. Parker panic devices (I didn't supply it) SUCK! So do those
plastic Detexes!!!! What a freakin' day! I wish I did only have to
open cars.
Bob De Weese
I wish to apologize for my outburst last night. I was flamed, and
instead of just letting it go, I proceeded to act like as big a (if not
bigger) jerk as the person that I was replying. I was childish and out
of line.
The fact that I had a bad day is _no_ excuse. Please forgive me.
Bobby