Teargas device on inside of Vault Door????
Doug Williams
have encountered these things in a couple of OLD bank buildings. It
consists of a cast pot metal cover about 12" long and 4" wide, mounted
to the inside of the vault door covering the change key hole. Inside the
cover are 2 glass capsules, each 1" in diameter and about 7" long and
containing a clear liquid. I suppose these are designed to break and
release something noxious during an impact attack on the dial. MY
QUESTION IS THIS......
Since device is decades old, is it something terribly toxic that may
have been banned? Arsenic, tear gas, stink bomb???? I hate to work
around something I don't understand. Should it be removed, how should it
be disposed of etc. Please email comments directly to ks...@nceye.net
Thanks
Doug Williams
Peter
>
[snip]
>
>Since device is decades old, is it something terribly toxic that may
>have been banned? Arsenic, tear gas, stink bomb???? I hate to work
>around something I don't understand. Should it be removed, how should it
>be disposed of etc. Please email comments directly to ks...@nceye.net
>
This is a qood question well worth asking. Better to ask now than end up in
serious trouble (My former employer copped a hefty fine for stinking out a city
when de-commissioning old natural gas odorisers - some of the liquid spilt and
it stinks!).
Your firm should have a policy on this sort of thing, if it is a very small
firm you may need to help develop a policy. Hopefully your firm's customer
contracts puts the financial responsibility on the client to deal with this
sort of thing, it should include asbestos etc.
Health and safety people at City Hall or at County or State or Federal level
should be able to give guidance with regard to legal requirements (I live
outside USA and hence I do not know the workplace health and safety
administration setup in the USA.
Peter
"Keyman"
news:39CE279D...@nceye.net...
> I work for a independent bank equipment company in North
Carolina and
> have encountered these things in a couple of OLD bank
buildings. It
> consists of a cast pot metal cover about 12" long and 4" wide,
mounted
> to the inside of the vault door covering the change key hole.
Inside the
> cover are 2 glass capsules, each 1" in diameter and about 7"
long and
> containing a clear liquid. I suppose these are designed to
break and
> release something noxious during an impact attack on the dial.
MY
> QUESTION IS THIS......
>
that may
> have been banned? Arsenic, tear gas, stink bomb???? I hate to
work
> around something I don't understand. Should it be removed, how
should it
> be disposed of etc. Please email comments directly to
ks...@nceye.net
>
>
> Doug Williams
>
Don't mess with it at all..
You wouldn't like it if it ruptures..
No Joking, Call Hazard Waste and maybe the Bomb Squad..
Let someone with the experience deal with it..
--
"Keyman"
Billy B. Edwards Jr.
>
> Don't mess with it at all..
> You wouldn't like it if it ruptures..
> No Joking, Call Hazard Waste and maybe the Bomb Squad..
> Let someone with the experience deal with it..
In the 80's I had a friend who had 'collected' a few of those teargas
vials from old safes and we heard of one that exploded rather
violently. He had the Virginia State Police bomb squad remove his nad
destroy them. Two of the twelve or so he had exploded with great force.
The originally clear liquid tear gas turns yellow with age and sometimes
develops a brown streak in it. When the brown streak is there, it has
turned into a powerful explosive. Be very careful.
BBE.
todd
chemically in to deadly gas or nitro but they simply are not true. i asked a
chemist and he chuckled and compared it to alchemistry turning lead into
gold. There is a patent for putting nitro in a safe but it was never sold
who would want to slam the door and get blown up? this stuff was sold and
installed until just a few years ago it is very concentrated so that it can
have an effect through the spindle hole. the only tricky part about dealing
with this stuff is some of it used modified shotgun shells or bullets to set
it off. for the most part if there is a spring loaded wire dont screw with
it call a safe tech that has dealt with it before to remove it. if it is
mounted behind the lock and set off by punching the lock just unscrew it and
take it to the toxic waste disposal of your dump. i also know guys that just
shoot it with a bb gun and let it dissipate
todd
into a fireball ?
like a bomb blowing glass particles and a huge concussion? im not making fun
of you but it seems everybody likes to exaggerate the power of tear gas. it
is very potent and will make you cry and choke and if you have a weak
stomach throw up but it wont explode otherwise we would hear of people
closing the doors on there safes only to have them blown off there hinges
and killing the users.
Billy B. Edwards Jr.
>
> let me get this right billy when he dropped a vial of tear gas it exploded
> into a fireball ?
> like a bomb blowing glass particles and a huge concussion? im not making fun
> of you but it seems everybody likes to exaggerate the power of tear gas. it
> is very potent and will make you cry and choke and if you have a weak
> closing the doors on there safes only to have them blown off there hinges
> and killing the users.
I can undestand your incredulity, however you weren't there. From 100
yards away most of the contents simply emitted the mist consistent of
airborne teargas but two of the vials actually exploded. Caution is
warranted, no one knows excatly what was put into those vials.
BBE.
todd
postmaster. as far as the savta article you need to re read it aug.99 pg. 14 " in
conclusion tear gas is an irritant, an inert gas, and a stable gas. the 60 year
old gas does not change chemically once it is sealed in glass." go back read it
and tell me that is not what the article says.the first part af the article talks
about poison gas that is just history of gas dont get it confused with the stuff
in safes is.
--Shiva-- wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Sep 2000 06:48:37 GMT, todd <wsut...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> >it is simply tear gas there are a lot of wives tales about it changing
> >chemically in to deadly gas or nitro but they simply are not true. i asked a
> >chemist and he chuckled and compared it to alchemistry turning lead into
> >gold. There is a patent for putting nitro in a safe but it was never sold
> >who would want to slam the door and get blown up? this stuff was sold and
> >installed until just a few years ago it is very concentrated so that it can
> >have an effect through the spindle hole. the only tricky part about dealing
> >with this stuff is some of it used modified shotgun shells or bullets to set
> >it off. for the most part if there is a spring loaded wire dont screw with
> >it call a safe tech that has dealt with it before to remove it. if it is
> >mounted behind the lock and set off by punching the lock just unscrew it and
> >take it to the toxic waste disposal of your dump. i also know guys that just
> >shoot it with a bb gun and let it dissipate
> >
> Todd, we had a nice 2 part article in SAVTA recently on these
> devices.... and they disagree with your story...
>
>
>
todd
usually it is H7O1C8CL1 now if you could please tell me the chemical composition
that this formula turns into to make it explosive. be careful what you write and
be responsible for it. we do know what was put in the vials you just need to
research it. if you want i can privately email you a couple of guys that own the
distributorships to different gas devices and they have they company data sheets
on what was used.
"Billy B. Edwards Jr." wrote:
todd
go remove it.
and for your light bulb it could be a fire extinguisher i have seen many in antique
shops that look like a light bulb.
--Shiva-- wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Sep 2000 16:39:31 GMT, todd <wsut...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> >we also had a story in national locksmith where the author got his info from the
> >postmaster. as far as the savta article you need to re read it aug.99 pg. 14 " in
> >conclusion tear gas is an irritant, an inert gas, and a stable gas. the 60 year
> >old gas does not change chemically once it is sealed in glass." go back read it
> >and tell me that is not what the article says.the first part af the article talks
> >about poison gas that is just history of gas dont get it confused with the stuff
> >in safes is.
> why does my local fire department then call the haz mat boys if
> they find an OLD glass cannister inside a vault? They have an old
> looks like a light bulb shape, used to be filled with some gas,
> besides tear gas...on display, along with a notice stating.it
> wasn't tear gas.
> there are many things available besides tear gas, that was
> sometimes the nicest that was used..
> but, anyway, let the fellow break it, and once everyone gets done
> suing him, then he will have maybe wished he had not...
>
>
>
>
ghard...@my-deja.com
BBEd...@thelockman.com wrote:
> "Keyman" wrote:
> >
> > Don't mess with it at all..
> > You wouldn't like it if it ruptures..
> > No Joking, Call Hazard Waste and maybe the Bomb Squad..
> > Let someone with the experience deal with it..
>
> In the 80's I had a friend who had 'collected' a few of those teargas
> vials from old safes and we heard of one that exploded rather
> violently. He had the Virginia State Police bomb squad remove his nad
> destroy them. Two of the twelve or so he had exploded with great
force.
>
> The originally clear liquid tear gas turns yellow with age and
sometimes
> develops a brown streak in it. When the brown streak is there, it has
> turned into a powerful explosive. Be very careful.
> BBE.
>
For failure to put out a coke alert ,,,,,,, you own me a keyboard !
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
todd
savta article you talked about earlier. and yes we can analyze what the compound is if
there are no data sheets.the guy who wrote the article for savta works at a university
and has access to the chemistry dept. if you have a vial that is not recorded we
could have it analyzed.
and you still did not comment on the aug. 99 quote.
--Shiva-- wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Sep 2000 16:51:45 GMT, todd <wsut...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> >if you tell me the brand of tear gas i will tell you exactly what is in the vial
> >usually it is H7O1C8CL1 now if you could please tell me the chemical composition
> >that this formula turns into to make it explosive. be careful what you write and
> >be responsible for it. we do know what was put in the vials you just need to
> >research it. if you want i can privately email you a couple of guys that own the
> >distributorships to different gas devices and they have they company data sheets
> >on what was used.
> >
> curiosity? purely curious now...
> They got data sheets from 125 years back? that nice...
> 1875 to say 1920's?
> That's what i deal with a lot of times...
>
>
>
Jay Hennigan
:it was a fire extinguisher... forget the chemical used, but if
:anyone was inside the safe, they died... that's what he told me,
:and I am not about to argue with a fire marshall.
Carbon tetrachloride. Quite deadly to breathe, and common in early fire
extinguishers.
--
Jay Hennigan - Network Administration - j...@west.net
NetLojix Communications, Inc. NASDAQ: NETX - http://www.netlojix.com/
WestNet: Connecting you to the planet. 805 884-6323
The SpellBinder
says...
>
>todd wrote:
>>
>> let me get this right billy when he dropped a vial of tear gas it exploded
>> into a fireball ?
>> like a bomb blowing glass particles and a huge concussion? im not making fun
>> of you but it seems everybody likes to exaggerate the power of tear gas. it
>> is very potent and will make you cry and choke and if you have a weak
>> stomach throw up but it wont explode. otherwise we would hear of people
>> closing the doors on there safes only to have them blown off there hinges
>> and killing the users.
>
>I can undestand your incredulity, however you weren't there. From 100
>yards away most of the contents simply emitted the mist consistent of
>airborne teargas but two of the vials actually exploded. Caution is
>warranted, no one knows excatly what was put into those vials.
>BBE.
in a rural store. They had evidently been in there some thirty years, as near
as I could trace. I ( prior to EPA guidelines, etc. ) "disposed" of them a
short distance away by throwing them to break the vial, well away from myself.
One simply released the gas, but the other quite literally exploded. Glad I
wasn't closer, but I would never do that again. To this day I don't know what
caused it, but I have a great deal of respect for those vials ever since. It
scared the bleep out of me!
Billy B. Edwards Jr.
>
> be careful what you write and
> be responsible for it.
Take a little of your own advice. When more than one person has told
you that they have seen these things explode you might be intelligent
enough to figure out that it isn't always just teargas inside those
vials. Your attribution of those kinds of events to 'wives tales' is
nothing short of irresponsible. Hopefully they are all gone by now, but
I doubt it. I for one don't want the injury of some reader here on my
conscience.
BBE.
James Brown
powdered substance) that requires heat or a chemical reaction to heat the
powder so as to transform it into a mist form.
This is the same substance used in military CS Grenades, very often are
incorrectly referred to as tear gas. The CS Grenades have an incidary
device installed in them that when the pin is pulled, the fuse is ignited
which starts the incindary action to burn the powder.
Any chemical over time can become destable as it's molecular structure
changes. It could be that this was the issue.
jb
"Billy B. Edwards Jr." wrote:
James Brown
the basics from my military days, but here's what the experts say on it. I'm
pretty sure this is what it is that you've run into, since it does require the
agent to be burned in order to work.
CS aka ortho-CHLOROBENZYLMALONONITRILE
Synonyms:
[(2-Chlorophenyl)methylene]propanedinitrile
ortho-Chlorobenzylidene Malononitrile
beta,beta-Dicyano-ortho-Chlorostyrene
ortho-Chlorobenzalmalononitrile
CS
CAS Number: 2698-41-1
CS (ortho-Chlorobenzalmalononitrile) is a white crystalline solid which has
been used for many years as an anti-riot agent. This chemical was originally
developed by B.B. Corson and R.W. Stoughton in 1928. It's use as a crowd
control chemical was originally used in the 1950's but was not seriously
considered by law enforcement for use until the mid 1960's. It is used
primarily as an incapacitating agent, both by the military and law enforcement
personnel. With the
advent of the less-than-lethal requirement needed by law enforcement, CS has
become a mainstay of riot control, alleviating hostage and barracaide
situations and prison population control. CS can be disseminated in grenades,
projectiles, aerosols, or as a powder. Burning grenades, projectiles, and the
raw powder are commercially manufactured here in the United States strictly
for law enforcement. These manufacturers provide the only true controls on
sales and who may possess this chemical. CS based aerosols are available to
the consumer from a few select retail and wholesale organizations and stores.
In very minute quantities, CS has a peppery odor. At higher concentrations,
the eyes will involuntarily close, have a burning sensation with profuse
tearing. The nose will run, and moist skin will have a stinging sensation. CS
will cause severe coughing, in concurrence with a tightness in the chest and
throat. Occasionally, dizziness or swimming of the head will be experienced.
All of the above effects are produced 20 to 60 seconds after dosing, and they
will last from 10 to 30 minutes after being removed from the gas.
CS is less potentially lethal than CN, but as with all chemical agents, these
chemicals are "inherently dangerous" and should only be used at a level of
force between "Control & Restraint" and "Temporary Incapacitation".
There is a tremendous amount of information available to those who need to
know. MP Laboratories, Inc. is committed to providing law enforcement with the
most up-to-date and knowledgeable information available around the world. Feel
free to contact either Donald Peace or Scott Miller with your questions or
concerns.
todd
national laboratory here in california tell me about the chemicals used in
tear gas. and the u of penn. said tear gas is stable read the last 2
paragraphs of savta Aug. 99. what sort of research have you done? a friend
said"". i need proof.not stories of freinds..and i dont mean to piss off
"the spell binder" but i have no idea who he is or how credible. i have
broke these before to see what would happen and i would be more than happy
to video me breaking a few more and send you ..I never said the stuff was
not to be respected but with training it is not to be feared. this is the
last i have to say on the subject and probably will not continue this tread
we have went from tear gas to fire extinguishers here. but think about it
would you buy a product that explodes and would kill you and use it every
day or would you put your stuff in a safe that was contaminated with mustard
gas so when you went in the building and discovered your safe was broken
into die from the gas? you get my point ? please read the article in savta
and comment on it .
todd
was there a fireball?
The SpellBinder
>
>was the explosion caused by the gas being under pressure so it would dissipate
or
>was there a fireball?
like that. The vials were of thin glass, so I do not see how they could have
been pressurized in any way. I have also wondered if one were some sort of
accelerant to spread the gas faster, but while there were slight differences in
the color of the mixtures between the two vials, it was not so great that I
immediately did not assume them to be identical. Bear in mind that these vials
were of an age that probably put them close to WW2, not the later tear gas
cannisters that went on the market commercially ( Badger, etc.). I have no idea
of who put the tear gas vials ( or even any real knowledge that that is what
they were intended to be, though I cannot imagine anything else ) into the
safe. I discovered them on a routine combination change, and the owner of the
safe was unaware they were there at all. When I explained the purpose of tear
gas ( my assumption of their contents ) the owner stated that he would lose
more money being shut down for a day or two till the gas dissapated than he
would if the safe were burglarized, and asked me to remove/disable them.
Because there was nothing to disable - just two thin glass vials, no plunger
mechanisms, etc - I removed them and "disposed" of them. The first one just
broke like good glass with a "whuff" as the gas released, but the second one
emitted a large sound that I would call an explosion. I felt a pressure in the
air, but that could have been my body reacting to the unexpected loud sound. I
could see the shards of glass reflecting the Sun being propelled into the air
some ten to twenty feet, and I got scared. I have been over that day in my mind
many times over the years, and have nothing but questions-no answers.
--As to the question you raised of my credibility, who IS credible? Credibility
is about the ability to be believed, and belief is a personal thing. My
ex-wives will tell you that they don't believe everything I say, and I have
made mistakes, both aloud and in writing. I believe that everything and
everybody should be in question. If that is true, then no one is credible. In
this specific case, am I credible? I can only say what I believe I saw. Could I
have been mistaken in my interpretations? Much of what we see and hear every
day is influenced by what we expect, and this event was unexpected. Therefore,
my own experiences may have been influenced by the fact that it WAS unexpected.
Over the years I have wondered about things like that myself. So I would have
to say that on this I am not overly credible. But I am not lying or
exaggerating either.
Rick
Chloropicrin as the contents of some vials. Get your chem-whiz to check on
chloropicrin. Apparently it's an irritant like tear gas, but explosive when
confined. Serious lung damage if you breathe it, too.
todd wrote in message <39CF8279...@earthlink.net>...
>if you tell me the brand of tear gas i will tell you exactly what is in
the vial
>usually it is H7O1C8CL1 now if you could please tell me the chemical
composition
write and
>be responsible for it. we do know what was put in the vials you just need
to
>research it. if you want i can privately email you a couple of guys that
own the
>distributorships to different gas devices and they have they company data
sheets
>on what was used.
>
>
Joe Kesselman
> airborne teargas but two of the vials actually exploded. Caution is
> warranted, no one knows excatly what was put into those vials.
There's sufficient experience in the trade to justify that conclusion.
The folks who were setting these up often had no idea what they were
working with, how safe or dangerous it was, or what its long-term
chemical stability might be.
There comes a point at which you turn a job over to an expert. If
there's any question whatsoever about your safety and the safety of
those around you, you've definitely reached that point.
--
------------------------------------------------------
Joe Kesselman, http://www.lovesong.com/people/keshlam/
October 14th at the Walkabout Clearwater Coffeehouse:
Odetta! http://www.WalkaboutClearwater.org
donald haarmann
todd <wsut...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:39CF9B83...@earthlink.net...
> we both know they did not have tear gas in 1875. tear gas came around 1930's
Sorry. This is incorrect by minus 27 years!
Chloropicrin (nitrochloroform) was discovered by the English chemist, Stenhouse, in 1848,
"and its chemical and physiological properties had been carefully studied many years
during the nineteenth century."
First used in WWI by the Russians August, 1916. Chloropicrin an oily liquid is a
strong lachrymator and a lethal lung-injurant.
Augustin M Prentiss
Chemicals in War
Mc Graw Hill New York 1937
"Tear gas" as the term is generally used is - chloroacetopenone (C6H5COCH2Cl) [aka "CN"].
Was discovered in 1869 by the German chemist, Graebe, "who described the powerful effects
of its vapor upon the eyes."
Others:-
bromobenzyl cyanide 1881.
etylbromacetate 1858
chloroacetone ????
xylyl bromide ????
benzyl bromide ????
bromacetone ????
brommethylethyl ketone ????
iodoactone ????
etyliodoacetate ????
benzyl iodide ????
acrolein ????
phenylcarbylamine chloride ????
Because chloroacetophenone is soluble in organic solvents e.g., carbon tetrachloride
me thinks it would be prime candidate as the prime ingredient in your device.
--
donald j haarmann - independently dubious
donald haarmann
to fill in a few more dates of discovery:-
Others:-
bromobenzyl cyanide 1881.
etylbromacetate 1858
chloroacetone 1859
xylyl bromide 1882
benzyl bromide ????
bromacetone 1863
brommethylethyl ketone ????
iodoactone ????
etyl iodoacetate 1859
benzyl iodide 1884
acrolein 1843
phenylcarbylamine chloride 1874
Ray Hearn (junk mail box)
While you are trying to dazzle us with your references to world class
scientists, and cautioning BBE to stand by hid words. You are posting as
"todd" Like that really tells us who you are! The gent you are fighting
with is known to us all and a noted expert in locks of many types. I think I
will have to put you down as a troll on this one and go with BBE on this, as
my one experience on this gas being released squares nicely with his.
Regards
Ray Hearn
"todd" <wsut...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:39D01DD4...@earthlink.net...
"Keyman"
Todd,
for your information,
BBE is very creditable and one of the leaders in our trade..
--
"Keyman"
todd
well know LOCKSMITH i have read his articles but i cant remember him
ever teaching a class for savta or being known for his safecracking
abilities. i am still waiting for him to comment on roy watters article
in savta aug.99 . all i want is to stop the myths and bs connected with
tear gas. and get facts out there. if billy wants to talk to roy and get
the facts from him thats fine or the next time anybody here does work at
a collage talk to the chemistry dept. and report what was said. by the
way keyman we dont know who you are.
\"Keyman\" wrote:
> > "todd" <wsut...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:39D01DD4...@earthlink.net...
"Keyman"
> keyman i do know who bill Edward's. now dont take this wrong
but he is a
> well know LOCKSMITH i have read his articles but i cant
remember him
> ever teaching a class for savta or being known for his
safecracking
> abilities. i am still waiting for him to comment on roy watters
article
> in savta aug.99 . all i want is to stop the myths and bs
connected with
> tear gas. and get facts out there. if billy wants to talk to
roy and get
> the facts from him thats fine or the next time anybody here
does work at
> a collage talk to the chemistry dept. and report what was said.
by the
> way keyman we dont know who you are.
>
That makes two of us..
I don't know who you are either...
--
"Keyman" @ ASl...@gcstation.net
"LOCK IT DON'T LOSE IT"
A & S Locksmith
http://www.gcstation.net/~aslock
Todd
use a red dye and pepper spray mixture and I don't know any scientists.
thanx, :-)
Todd
"Ray Hearn (junk mail box)" <ray_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:39d8...@news.galilei.com...
> Might I point out something to you?
>
> While you are trying to dazzle us with your references to world class
> scientists, and cautioning BBE to stand by hid words. You are posting as
> "todd" Like that really tells us who you are! The gent you are fighting
> with is known to us all and a noted expert in locks of many types. I think
I
> will have to put you down as a troll on this one and go with BBE on this,
as
> my one experience on this gas being released squares nicely with his.
> Regards
> Ray Hearn
>
> "todd" <wsut...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:39D01DD4...@earthlink.net...
Billy B. Edwards Jr.
>
> keyman i do know who bill Edward's. now dont take this wrong but he is a
> well know LOCKSMITH i have read his articles but i cant remember him
> ever teaching a class for savta or being known for his safecracking
> abilities. i am still waiting for him to comment on roy watters article
> in savta aug.99 .
And you will be waiting a long time. I haven't seen his article and
probably won't be seeing it. I was a member of Savta when I needed it
but let it go when the need went away.
I guess I will be waiting just as long for you to admit that not all of
those vials are filled with only teargas. The actual chemical
composition and properties of teargas doesn't carry much weight if it
isn't teargas in the vial.
BBE.
todd
trade. How can we achieve a higher level of professionalism when people of
your stature and reputation in the field state that they no longer need trade
organizations?
and yes i will admit there are several different chemicals in the vials "tear
gas" is a generic term. but you will never get me to admit that there is
commercial vials of nitro glycerin in safes or mustard gas. ps if you would
like i can fax you the savta article so you can see i am not the only one with
this opinion
"Billy B. Edwards Jr." wrote:
Billy B. Edwards Jr.
>
> billy your answer shocks me i had always thought you were for education in the
> trade. How can we achieve a higher level of professionalism when people of
> your stature and reputation in the field state that they no longer need trade
> organizations?
You misunderstand me Todd. I am not now, nor have I ever been, a safe
man. I had an interest in some safe things and an interest in seeing
SAVTA succeed so I joined for a few years. Once they were on the road
to success and I had learned what I wanted to know I dropped out of it.
I have no interest in working as hard as you safe guys to make my
living. I drilled more hardplate than I ever want to see again, if I
ever do safe work again it's manipulation for me.
BBE.
Steve Paris
walking around, up-side down, on the other end of the world.
--
Steve Paris Q286
Tropical Cairns
North Queensland
Australia
todd <wsut...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:39D93E39...@earthlink.net...
"Keyman"
news:newscache$e5ax1g$xt7$1...@news.iig.com.au...
> Gee Todd, even I can understand what Billy is trying to say,
.... and I'm
> walking around, up-side down, on the other end of the world.
>
> --
> Steve Paris Q286
> Tropical Cairns
> North Queensland
> Australia
>
Steve,
Ya cracked me up with that one~!!!
Its really not that hard.
We have "mastered" it over on this end of the world.
The tricky part is realizing which end is up and then forcing
ourselves to think backwards all the time:-))
--
"Keyman"
todd
Steve Paris wrote:
> Gee Todd, even I can understand what Billy is trying to say, .... and I'm
> walking around, up-side down, on the other end of the world.
>
> --
> Steve Paris Q286
> Tropical Cairns
> North Queensland
> Australia
>
> todd <wsut...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:39D93E39...@earthlink.net...
"Keyman"
Besides, you did reply..
Guess Steve is right, you really can't understand what Billy
was trying to tell ya..
--
"Keyman"
"todd" <wsut...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:39DBE7CE...@earthlink.net...