"Butterfly knob" safe locks...
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
old DOD-surplus filing cabinet, which has one of the "butterfly" S&G
locks (with a secondary turnpiece in the middle of the knob that holds
the fence away from the wheel pack until the dial is turned to a neutral
position, to prevent manipulation). It's probably been 20 years since
the beast has had any maintainance or a combo change, though it hasn't
been used very intensively over that time.
I seem to remember that there were two or three models of these. I've
never worked on them, though I know my way around other safe locks. I
seem to remember that the anti-manipulation mechanism involves a
complicated cam...
I'm trying to dig out my literature... But if anyone's got tips on what
particularly needs to be done (or not done!) with these, or reemembers
when they were last covered in LL or NL, I'd appreciate the pointers.
In particular: Are replacement parts still generally available? Were
these key-change or hand-change? And -- if it turns out that it's on the
edge of catastrophic failure -- how hard is it likely to be to swap in a
modern replacement?
--
Joe Kesselman, http://www.lovesong.com/people/keshlam/
{} ASCII Ribbon Campaign | "may'ron DaroQbe'chugh vaj bIrIQbej" --
/\ Stamp out HTML mail! | "Put down the squeezebox & nobody gets hurt."
todd
purposes a 6700 will bolt right up with no modification what so ever.
todd
vertical up locks they are vd with the exception of diebold that are rh.
also a tubed 6700 will not work as the spindle holes are very small and
hardened.
Matt Blaze
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam) <kes...@attglobal.net> wrote:
>Just got a call from an old friend asking if I could take a look at his
>old DOD-surplus filing cabinet, which has one of the "butterfly" S&G
>locks (with a secondary turnpiece in the middle of the knob that holds
>the fence away from the wheel pack until the dial is turned to a neutral
>position, to prevent manipulation). It's probably been 20 years since
>the beast has had any maintainance or a combo change, though it hasn't
>been used very intensively over that time.
>
>I seem to remember that there were two or three models of these. I've
>never worked on them, though I know my way around other safe locks. I
>seem to remember that the anti-manipulation mechanism involves a
>complicated cam...
>
>I'm trying to dig out my literature... But if anyone's got tips on what
>particularly needs to be done (or not done!) with these, or reemembers
>when they were last covered in LL or NL, I'd appreciate the pointers.
>
>In particular: Are replacement parts still generally available? Were
>these key-change or hand-change? And -- if it turns out that it's on the
>edge of catastrophic failure -- how hard is it likely to be to swap in a
>modern replacement?
Just to be clear - is this a lockout or just routine maintenance?
If the former, manipulation is likely out of the question as a
practical matter, for the reasons you mention. (There's in theory
a small amount of feedback from the degree of rotation of the
butterfly, but in practice the fences and wheelpacks are sufficiently
tight that you won't be able to exploit it). For drilling,
standard procedure on GSA containers involves attacking the bolt
and replacing the drawerhead, not scoping the lock as with most safes.
Note that this isn't all that difficult on a class 6 container (and
there are no relockers on all but a very few models); see the GSA
standard procedure (available on the navy web site). What class
is it (what color is the label)? Class 5 will take you a bit longer,
and you might want to call in for specialized help. If it's a
GSA fireproof container, I'm not sure whether any of the older models
used asbestos, so beware.
If just maintenance, first of all the cam mechanism is a really
interesting design and deserves your taking advantage of the chance
to study it if you've never seen one before. Make sure everything
operates smoothly. Don't take apart or lubricate the wheel pack.
Note that there are two types of these locks: group 1, with a brass
wheelpack, and group 1R (which also resists X-ray attacks), with
a plastic wheel pack. The group 1R locks do wear faster, and after
20 years (plus however many in original service) your friend's lock
may be at the end of its service life.
These are still being made, and I'd suggest replacement if you
have any doubt. A replacement will run about $160 from, e.g.
Lockmasters. You implied that this was bought surplus, so
GSA certification is not an issue. You may find that replacing
the lock with an (easier to use, if less secure) 6730 and keeping
the 8500 for you to play with is a good deal for both of you.
If you care about the GSA certification, however, note that while
I believe EXISTING mechanical locks are still DoD legal for
classified applications (at least they are on SCIFs, not as sure
about containers), if you replace it altogether you'll need to use
an X07/X08/X09 to maintain its certification.
-Matt Blaze
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> Just to be clear - is this a lockout or just routine maintenance?
Just maintainance. Effort to _prevent_ a lockout. Yes, I know what'd be
involved otherwise.
I just wanted to make sure there aren't any obvious maintainance
pitfalls I needed to watch out for.
> Don't take apart or lubricate the wheel pack.
Sigh. There are always mixed opinions on that. You can't inspect flies
for developing stress cracks without taking the wheel pack apart.
While I wholeheartedly agree that the wrong lubricants are A Bad Thing,
there are appropriate lubes for safe locks. Manufacturer recommendations
vary, depending on model and materials and phase-of-moon and what was
available last time they looked at the issue.
Good to know that 1R versions of this exist. I doubt that's what I'm
dealing with here -- to be honest, I expect it predates suitable
plastics! -- but we'll see.
> These are still being made, and I'd suggest replacement if you
> have any doubt.
Checking it out is part of the goal; changing the combo is the other.
If we're forced to replace it I suspect we'd consider electronic;
preserving the cabinet as a Historic Artifact may be less of an issue
than ease of maintainance. GSA rating isn't a concern in this case.
todd
todd
head if you know how to open safes, the repair info is available on the
navy web site. second the color of the label does not tell you the
class. also gsa safes never have used asbestos. it looks like you have
read a little on the subject but never worked on one.
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> when you drill a gsa safe you do not need to replace the drawer head
Last I checked (five years ago, admittedly), the GSA officially frowned
on repairing drawer heads and would not accept a repaired one as meeting
their standards; they Officially Preferred that the entire head be
destroyed and replaced. That actually made a lot of sense given their
needs, which were not keeping people out per se but being able to detect
when intrusion/tampering has occurred. (Any one attack was of less
concern than ongoing espionage would be.)
If they've changed their policy since then, I'd appreciate a specific
pointer to the new rules.
Of course for non-GSA applications, other concerns and other practices
may be more appropriate.
Matt Blaze
todd <wsut...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>matt when you drill a gsa safe you do not need to replace the drawer
>head if you know how to open safes, the repair info is available on the
>navy web site.
Yes, I'm aware of that, which I why I suggested going to that site.
However, the opening procedure is rather different from most
other safes, and the usual procedure is to replace the drawer
head with a spare and repair the removed one later, for use
as a future spare. That's been my experience, at least.
Obviously, an individual with a single personally-owned
surplus container will likely have different circumstances
that may warrant fixing it on the spot. However, I believe
to get it up to spec involves welding (at least for the
class 5 containers), which may not be everyone's cup
of tea (and one of the reasons I suggested specialized help
especially in that particular case).
> second the color of the label does not tell you the
>class. also gsa safes never have used asbestos.
I didn't think they did, but I wasn't sure. Which I why I
said "I'm not sure" with regard to GSA FIRE safes, since I
wouldn't want someone to risk his or her health based on
an uncertain assertion about their safety. I'm glad you're
sure.
> it looks like you have
>read a little on the subject but never worked on one.
Well, you'd be mistaken about that. Perhaps for some reason
you're hoping to engage in an argument. If so, I'm sure
you'll have no trouble finding one somewhere, this being
USENET and all.
Cheers
-matt
Matt Blaze
>> when you drill a gsa safe you do not need to replace the drawer head
>
>Last I checked (five years ago, admittedly), the GSA officially frowned
>on repairing drawer heads and would not accept a repaired one as meeting
>their standards; they Officially Preferred that the entire head be
>destroyed and replaced. That actually made a lot of sense given their
>needs, which were not keeping people out per se but being able to detect
>when intrusion/tampering has occurred. (Any one attack was of less
>concern than ongoing espionage would be.)
My (imperfect) recollection here is that there are two sets of
procedures: one for how to handle lockouts of government-owned
containers (which indeed involves swapping out the drawer head and
returning it to some Official Place) and another for how to
repair and re-certify for classified storage an opened container.
Repairs are (or at least were when I took the course) allowed for
the latter purpose.
And of course you're absolutely right about the main official
purpose of these containers, which is to discourage only casual
pilfering but reliably detect even sophisticated unauthorized
entry. It's amusingly instructive to note the time ratings on
these boxes against forced entry: 0 minutes and 10 minutes,
and for almost all domestic classified applications the 0 minute
version is considered adequate. Of course, it's hard to imagine
getting one of these open in the field in anywhere near that
amount of time, and even a class 6 (0 minute) container is a
pretty formidable security device by commercial standards.
Of course, for a privately-owned surplus GSA safe not used
for classified storage, all of this is irrelevant, unless
one decides to follow the standard on the assumption that
it represents a prudent security practice.
Cheers
-matt
todd
spec e mail me your fax # it is 26 pages long
FED-STD-809
5.5 REPAIR PROCEDURE repair the drilled hole with either : method 1a
for all black label containers, using a tapered, hardened, tool steel
pin, a steel dowel, drill bit or bearing method 1b for all
red,blue,green label containers using a carbide center mild steel pin
Use a diameter slightly larger than the hole and such a length that
when driven into the hole there shall remain at each end of the pin a
shallow recess not less than 1/8 nor more than 3/16 in deep to permit
the acceptance of substantial welds.....
this crap about cutting bolts is for unskilled workers like when a ship
is out to sea and can not have a trained safe tech. do the job. By the
way thanks for calling me on the carpet I think more people on the
usenet need to stand behind their statements.
todd
statements dont make sense such as talking about servicing the lock you
say not to take it apart . well that is how you service it. second you
said not to lube the lock , you are suppose to lube the lock that is why
S&G has a part # for lubricant, third you said the plastic wheel
(securMax wheel) wears out faster than brass wheels, Why? the inner hub
is constructed the same on both and that is where wear occurs. and
lastly I will credit you with saying you are not sure but any classified
material for the dod must be in a safe protected by a XO lock with the
exception of single drawer field safes, this does not apply to
contractors. once again this is no to pick a fight but to stop bad info.
We need to be help to professional standards.
Matt Blaze
Todd,
Sorry, I misinterpreted your tone as being combative, when clearly
that wasn't your intent.
It's entirely possible (and increasily likely with each passing
year) that my memory is faulty, but I have this very clear memory
if the S&G service manual for that lock making very clear not to
lubricate the wheel pack, and that the lube they specify was for
other parts of the lock. Again, I could well be wrong, but what
you're saying is very surprising to me. My advice not to
disassemble the wheel pack of the Group 1 lock was simply because
this is a rather deleicate and complex mechanism (more so than a
standard Group 2 lock) and someone not already familiar with it
could easily screw it up in reassembly. So perhaps the best
advice is "don't disassemble or lubricate the wheel pack, unless
you are REALLY sure you want to."
My comment on the plastic wheels wearing faster is based
entirely on anicdotal evidence, but I've seen several badly
worn samples taken out of service from Group 1R locks
that were much worse than similarly used brass wheels.
I think we agree about the requirements for storing classified
material in GSA safes outside of SCIFs. My original comment
was that mechanical locks are still found on SCIF doors, and
I believe they remain "legal" (but if replaced, it must be with
an X0 lock).
Cheers
-matt
Ed Jasper
reservoir hole in the back cover of the lock. Just take your tri-flow
nozzle and stick it in the hole and fill the back of the lock until the lube
runs out. Then you know that the oil level is correct.
Just kidding!
Ed
Henry E Schaffer
Of course this is kidding! You're really supposed to use WD-40 and
you're not supposed to let any run out!
--
--henry schaffer
hes _AT_ ncsu _DOT_ edu
Matt Blaze
I use a paste made from graphite and WD-40 held in suspension in
a maple syrup base. I prefer Canadian grade "C" syrup, which
is hard to find here in the states but if you're serious about
wheel pack tribology, there's really nothing else like it. (It
Tastes good on pancakes, too)
-matt
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> S&G has a part # for lubricant
Do you happen to remember exactly what flavor of lube they're
recommending for this safe? In practice I've found a silicone
microsphere lube, applied lightly, is safe on almost anything -- but I'd
rather know.
(In fact, some manufacturers have shipped their safe locks not only
lubricated but OVER-lubed, to the point where opening 'em up and wiping
off most of the excess ought to be a standard part of the installation
process.)
todd
much you want to learn you never sent me an email about a fax # for the
govt spec so should i look up the lube????
todd
there are 3 lubes that s&g recommends the G322L versilube formerly made
by GE now made by Novaguard...dow corning metal paste....arrowshell 22
which is what the factory is now using, it is an aviation lube made by
shell oil. and as I understand it Timemasters stocks it.
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> you never sent me an email about a fax # for the govt spec
Recieving faxes is a bit complicated for me; I have to fire up the PC's
fax-modem and shut down the answering machine, so basically it only
happens for special purposes and at odd hours. (I used to have a better
solution running under OS/2, but sic transit Gloria's Monday.)
There's another fax I could have stuff sent to, but that has its own
complications -- basically a matter of who owes who a favor -- so I'm
somewhat reluctant to do it that way.
And most of that spec is sorta offtopic for my immediate needs; as I
say, I'm currently concerned with maintaining one that's basically
working despite many years of neglect, and I'm not immediately concerned
with maintaining GSA rating.
BTW, I don't think anyone happened to answer whether this thing is
key-change or hand-change. I seem to remember a change index on the
dial, but as I say, it's been a long time since I looked at one.
todd
mosler is the only gsa lock i can think of that used a hand change
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
Hm. I'm told the label says "M-6730-MP".
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> I prefer Canadian grade "C" syrup, which
> is hard to find here in the states
Tell me about it. All those people who think 1% of maple syrup added to
sugar syrup is good enough... <sigh/>
(For those who don't know: Grade-B maple syrup have less sugar, but more
maple flavor, than Grade-A. Good stuff, well worth the cost, but hard to
find unless you're in an area where sugar maples are common. I haven't
found Grade-C yet.)
The Masked Marvel
http://assist.daps.dla.mil/docimages/0003/31/92/809.PD9 might be neater &
quicker than fax.
See http://stinet.dtic.mil/str/dodiss4_fields.html to search for MIL- FED-
and QQ- DoD/Gov't standards and specifications in general.
"todd" <wsut...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4071C4E5...@earthlink.net...
The Masked Marvel
Grade C is possible. (My memory's not what it was -- or so they tell me, I
don't really recall!) Each step is darker and stronger flavored at a given
%sugar (%solids?) The lightest comes earliest in the sap run and it darkens
to the end. Grading is by comparison for color to standards in small vials.
Around here A Medium and A Dark seem to be the common ones.
For safes (and locks) graphite powder washed in with/ WD-40 w/ a little
3-in-1 added will get results you won't soon forget! <GD&R>
"Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)" <kes...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:408b2...@news1.prserv.net...
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> u could download the standard in .pdf too...
Thanks for the pointers. Yeah, for me electronic form is easier to
handle than fax.
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> dial.. in a floor safe.
Floor _sealant_ isn't any better. Nor is coke syrup. I've not dealt with
either, but I've heard tales...
I wonder if anyone makes a gasketed cover for floor safes which provides
some protection against that sort of abuse. If not, that's a Market
Opportunity for some ambitious soul...
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
website -- basic instructions for dialing and combo changing -- along
with some parts lists and so on. Plus product catalog and retail price
sheets.
Putyourspamhere
>From: "Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)" kes...@attglobal.net
>Date: 4/25/04 9:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <408c6...@news1.prserv.net>
the very top of the tube body above the dial/lift out door. Star comes to mind.
It will keep out water, contaminants etc.
The Masked Marvel
specs/standards, so I expect he got it from there.
"todd" <wsut...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4072AC6D...@earthlink.net...
todd
lock. a rare find to see one still in service
todd
sucks to spend 20 min. looking up facts and they dont seem to be
appreciated, no harm no foul he got the info he needed
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
Definitely appreciated; it's just more detail than I could easily take
advantage of.
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> the m-6730 mp is the early model of the 8400 .for the most part the same
> lock. a rare find to see one still in service
Hmmm. Maybe I ought to offer to replace it simply to add it to my
collection. <smile/>
Joe Kesselman
> you collect????
Perhaps it would be truer to say I accumulate. I'm not a serious
collector, but I pick up and hold onto interesting samples when I can do
so cheaply.
The shelf opposite my desk has a mounted Mosler MR301 (group 1R), and
another Mosler with its matching painted face-plate from circa 1884.
(Some cosmetic damage, which is why it was cheap, but it's still a nice
bit of functional artwork.) There are a few other items floating around
the place; not all of them got unboxed last time I moved.
So, no, I don't "need" a sample of the Adjusta-Loc. Would consider
adopting it if it's looking for a home, though. If you want to quote me
a price, we can take this offline.