Carrying Lockpicks In N.J.
Big E
and restrictions are for carrying lockpicks
in N.J.?
Thanks if you can help,
Big E
Drew Mazurek
> Does anyone out there know what the laws and
> and restrictions are for carrying lockpicks
> in N.J.?
>
>
Sorry, I don't have a reply to this, but I'd like to tack Connecticut on
the list. Does anyone know?
- Drew Mazurek
Dave The LockSmith Rible
: Does anyone out there know what the laws and
: in N.J.?
: Thanks if you can help,
: Big E
Hey Big E,
If I am not mistaken, lock picks are burglary tools. Therefore it is a
criminal act to carry them. Unless that you are a locksmith or a security
professional. B/c there would be no real reason to have them on your person,
unless you were of the fore mentioned ppl. Unless you were going to committ
a illegal act.
Dave "The Locksmith" Rible
Top Security Locksmiths, Inc.
Actionlock
writes:
>Does anyone out there know what the laws and
>and restrictions are for carrying lockpicks
>in N.J.?
>
>
>Thanks if you can help,
>Big E
I still don't understand the need to walk around with lockpicks in your
pocket at all times?
Do people need to do this to influence people and impress your freinds?
or is it, that you maybe walking around and find a fair damsel in distress
and whip out your trusty lockpicks and come to her aid. In my experience,
this does not happen very often.
Maybe I don't understand because I locksmith for a living, and I keep my
lockpicks and my other tools such as hammers, pliers, files etc. in my
tool box in my service van. many of the other locksmiths I know either do
the same or carry them in their pockets only when they are working.
I still think that walking around with lockpicks is taking a risk, even if
your just pulled over and the police officer see's the picks in your top
pocket, it would give him probable cause to search you and tear apart your
whole car looking for stolen goods, weapons etc. Why leave yourself open
for that kind of hassel.
I don't want this to sound like I'm picking on anybody especially "Big E"
but this comes up from time to time and I Still would like to know what
the facination is and why it is worth it.
Mike
John P Norman
: Hey Big E,
: If I am not mistaken, lock picks are burglary tools. Therefore it is a
: criminal act to carry them. Unless that you are a locksmith or a security
: professional. B/c there would be no real reason to have them on your person,
: unless you were of the fore mentioned ppl. Unless you were going to committ
: a illegal act.
In any case, why would you want to "carry" lock picks around
everywhere? Why not just keep them in your tool box and take them out
when you need them? If they are a part of your kit, chances are nobody is
going to look at them as being any more suspicious than your
screwdrivers, jeweler's files, or whatever.
John
______________________________________________________________________________
/\\ John Norman
// \\ jpno...@csupomona.edu Computer Science Student
~~~//~~~\\~~~ Cal Poly Pomona, CA
// \\RCLIGHT
______________________________________________________________________________
Actionlock
(Daniel Rene Juliano) writes:
>I had an absent-minded friend who kept forgetting his keys and getting
>locked out of his apartment. As a student, he usually had his bookbag
>with him. It would have been best to get a copy of his key and keep it
>in his bag, but it said DO NOT DUPLICATE so he couldn't. Instead, he
>simply carried his picks in the bag at all times, and picked his way
>back into his apartment on the occasions that he had forgotten his keys.
>
>
I sill find it hard to believe that a person could simply remember to keep
his picks in his book bag (especially after use) could not simply remember
to keep his keys in his book bag. It like instead of keeping a spare
tire, you tow a extra vehicle just in case you have a flat or in case you
forget to get gas.
Maybe if your freind explained his situation to his landlord, he could see
his way clear to set your freind up with a extra key.
Mike
aa-2@deltanet.com@deltanet.com
>Dave "The LockSmith" Rible (s012...@hawkmail.monmouth.edu) wrote:
>>This is in the FAQ, and IANAL, but most of the "burglary tools" laws
>include a clause requiring criminal intent. A screwdriver, cordless
>drill, or tire iron could also be a "burglary tool" in the same
>circumstances. So, carrying lockpicks while stooped down in front of the
>door of a jewelry store at midnight is likely to be treated differently
>than carrying lockpicks as a normal routine just as some people carry a
>Leatherman tool or pocket knife. I work in electronics and carry a
>voltmeter. If I were seen with the alarm panel open inside of a bank at
>night with that meter, it could justifiably be called a burglary tool.
>
Hammers, crowbars, and voltmeters all have legitimate purposes, and are
a lot easier to explain away than a set of picks. It's true that in most
places, your intent is important in determining whether a crime has been
committed. In other words, you'd better have a real good explanation if
a cop ever catches you with picks. "Locksmithing is my hobby!" may not
be such a good answer, since most hobbies are practiced at home. That
goes double if you're caught lurking outside someone's home.
Most cops are pretty reasonable people most of the time. If your explanation
makes sense, and you don't have an arrest record for burglary or auto theft,
you'll probably be okay.
jk...@watson.ibm.com
>I had an absent-minded friend who kept forgetting his keys and getting
>locked out of his apartment. As a student, he usually had his bookbag
>with him. It would have been best to get a copy of his key and keep it
>in his bag, but it said DO NOT DUPLICATE so he couldn't.
In that situation, the building manager will retain a key... and will usually
be happy to approve having a second key made. DO NOT DUPLICATE means
"YOU should not duplicate without appropriate approvals", not "No duplicates
may ever be made under any circumstances."
Interesting line to take if you're trying to explain the picks to a police officer,
though he's going to be _certain_ your're not a pro after you try it...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph J. Kesselman http://pages.prodigy.com/NY/keshlam/
"This note is a production of Novalabs Consulting, which is solely
responsible for its content. Opinions not necessarily those of IBM."
Jason Woodrow
themselves out of their cars or houses, or need an old padlock taken off their
shed, etc. I have come in handy to quite a few folks I know. It's not a matter
of impressing them, it's just a very practical skill to have. And I don't want
to have to run back home to get the picks, I just carry a smallish set with me.
The only person who has ever given me a curious look was an airport security
guard when I took them out to go through the metal detector, but that's it.
-Jason Woodrow
jk...@watson.ibm.com
>I carry them with me because I am continually running into friends who lock
>themselves out of their cars or houses, or need an old padlock taken off their
>shed, etc. I have come in handy to quite a few folks I know. It's not a matter
>of impressing them
I understand the appeal... but since you can always say "sure, I'll
do that next time I'm here" or "I'll run home for my tools", it's not
really sufficient answer. Fact is, being able to open a lock at the
drop of a hat with no advance warning _is_ a matter of impressing
people, even though that's hard to admit... (True even for the pros
who carry their picksets on them at all times rather than leaving
them in the "service vehicle".)
The only exception I can think of might be a locksmith who's also
a rescue worker, where the extra minute or two might be critical.
Bill Nelson
: : what the laws are in NJ specifically, but in most places in the
: : U.S. it's *not* illegal to simply be in posession of lockpicks.
: : If you should be caught in the act of burglary, criminal
: : tresspass, etc., then an additional charge of posession of
: : burglar's tools could be brought against you. But the same goes
: : for the big screwdriver, etc.
: HEy Larry,
: I spoke to my Criminology professor who was a defense attorney, he stated
: that it is illegal to carry lock picks, whether the intent is to committ a
: crime or not. Unless you are a registered security professional. I admit
: it, I carry my picks around with me. I also carry all my car openning tools
: in the trunk of my car, but I am a bonded and insured locksmith. This is why
: there is a push for Locksmith Licensing in NJ, to stop ppl from owning or
: using locksmith tools, unless they are licensed.
: Dave "The LockSmith" Rible
: Top Security Locksmiths, Inc.
It just shows that even Criminology professors can be wrong. The only place
where it is explicitly illegal for Joe Blow to possess lock picks is in the
District of Columbia.
Why shouldn't a person be able to own picks etc, as long as they do not use
them to open locks that they are not authorized to open?
You will find, if you do even minimal research, that the use of locksmithing
tools is rare by criminals. They generally take too much time, and their use
is rather obvious. The criminal would much rather break the lock, get in and
out fast, and depart the scene. Damage to the lock or container it protects
is of no consequence to them.
Bill
jk...@watson.ibm.com
>Well thank you Dr. Kesselman, I feel much better now that my TRUE feelings have
>been brought to the surface. All this time I was just reaching out for love,
>not just picking a lock. Why the Freudian imagry alone is shocking!
>
>-Jason Woodrow
>
I stand corrected. All I can validly comment on is "If I did that, it would mean...".
Your milage may vary; void where prohibited by common sense...
Armand Castelli
Jason Woodrow
>Jason Woodrow wrote:
>
>> The only person who has ever given me a curious look was an airport security
>> guard when I took them out to go through the metal detector, but that's it.
>>
>> -Jason Woodrow
>
>reason & he finds them on you, guess what: you're going to jail for
>carrying burglar tools :) you wait & see!
Gosh I'm scared. Someday, maybe, I might get stopped by an officer, for some
unknown reason, and not only stopped but also searched. And when they find the
picks and I'm not in the act of committing a crime, THEY HAVE NOTHING. If they
want to pursue it, that's why we have courts (and ...lawyers...). Like other
"political" issues, I refuse to cower in fear of my government. I would rather
fight it when it goes astray, that is the only way we can preserve some
semblance of freedom. And, yes, it is worth it. If I can't walk down the street
with some pieces of bent metal in my pocket without being labeled a criminal,
something is seriously wrong. I'm willing to go to court to prove it. Maybe I
will get burned, but at least I'll have tried.
-Jason Woodrow
Actionlock
<jason_...@om.cv.hp.com> writes:
>Gosh I'm scared. Someday, maybe, I might get stopped by an officer, for
some
>unknown reason, and not only stopped but also searched. And when they
find
>the
>picks and I'm not in the act of committing a crime, THEY HAVE NOTHING. If
>they
>want to pursue it, that's why we have courts (and ...lawyers...). Like
other
>"political" issues, I refuse to cower in fear of my government. I would
>rather
>fight it when it goes astray, that is the only way we can preserve some
>semblance of freedom. And, yes, it is worth it. If I can't walk down the
>street
>with some pieces of bent metal in my pocket without being labeled a
criminal,
>something is seriously wrong. I'm willing to go to court to prove it.
Maybe I
>will get burned, but at least I'll have tried.
>
>
That's right!! Power to the people. I think we should all grab our
picks, open a window and hold them out and shout "I'm mad as hell and I'm
not going to take it any more". Then we should march hand in hand on D.
C. singing we shall over come.
Whew! god I feel better, the 60's were really a bitch. It seems to me,
that if your going to make a stand for political injustice etc. you shoud
start at why the police are searching you for no paticular reason.
Of course the odds of you being searched are probably one in a million in
the normal course of your life, but if you decide you need to press the
point by walking up to a police person and tell them that you have on your
person lockpicking tools and what are they going to do about it and get
arrested and go to court, be sure that you hire your own lawyer.
Mike
Stuart Friedman
writes:
>Gosh I'm scared. Someday, maybe, I might get stopped by an officer, for some
>unknown reason, and not only stopped but also searched. And when they find the
>picks and I'm not in the act of committing a crime, THEY HAVE NOTHING. If they
>want to pursue it, that's why we have courts (and ...lawyers...). Like other
>"political" issues, I refuse to cower in fear of my government. I would rather
>fight it when it goes astray, that is the only way we can preserve some
>semblance of freedom. And, yes, it is worth it. If I can't walk down the
street
>with some pieces of bent metal in my pocket without being labeled a criminal,
>something is seriously wrong. I'm willing to go to court to prove it. Maybe I
>will get burned, but at least I'll have tried.
>
>-Jason Woodrow
>
In the situation you described, the search would have been illegal which means
that IF the police officer testified truthfully, they would have the
evidence thrown out. Therefore, most police officer's would toss in
some furitive gestures to make the search good, e.g. the officer saw
you try to hide them when he came up, that you started walking faster
(or slower) when the cop looked at you, that you met the house
breaker/car thief/cattle rustler profile, that they had a history of
bubble gum machine breakins and that area, etc. The prosecutor will
then try to bootstrap this evidence in the back door.
Remember in being honorable that your opponent is not always going to
play by the same rules as you are. If you are going to get into a
major gamble make sure that their cards come from the top of the deck.
Stu
D. Jason Penney
>: Hey Big E,
>: If I am not mistaken, lock picks are burglary tools. Therefore it is a
>: criminal act to carry them. Unless that you are a locksmith or a security
>: professional. B/c there would be no real reason to have them on your person,
>: unless you were of the fore mentioned ppl. Unless you were going to committ
>: a illegal act.
My impression has been that although lock picks are not expressly illegal,
being caught with them while trespassing, etc. is regarded by the authoriies
as prima facie evidence of premeditation. That is, you can't claim that the
only reason you were in the jewelry store at two in the morning was because
you happened to be walking by and the door was open... :-)
--
D. Jason Penney (ja...@gemstone.com), GemStone Systems, Inc., Aloha, OR. (503)690-3636. I prefer PGP encrypted mail! For my public key, mail me with "send-pgpkey" as the subject. For info, use "help-pgp" as the subject.
"Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?"
TANIS YOONG
picking.
Bill Nelson
: Jason Woodrow <jason_...@om.cv.hp.com> wrote:
: >Gosh I'm scared. Someday, maybe, I might get stopped by an officer, for some
: >unknown reason, and not only stopped but also searched. And when they find the
: >picks and I'm not in the act of committing a crime, THEY HAVE NOTHING.
: >-Jason Woodrow
: In Canada, it is a criminal offence to possess B&E tools. You do not
: have to have any criminal intent. Simple possession is illegal.
If that is true, then all of the following (and more) would be illegal to
possess:
A screwdriver, pipewrench, dent puller, bolt cutter, hammer, paperclip,
credit card, hacksaw blade, ax, plastic pocket calendar, Vice grips,
pipe, prybar, knife, automobile jack, metal strips, metal strapping,
channel lock pliers etc.
Sounds like your law is as stupid as some of the laws here in the US.
Bill
Scott Pastor
illegal to carry lock picks is Washington D.C.
Rick
>acually, acording to the Alt.locksmithing FAQ, the only place where it is
>illegal to carry lock picks is Washington D.C.
Well, the FAQ is wrong. It is unlawful to carry them in Canada
without a license.
Rick Streifel
Al Scott Lock & Safe Ltd.
lock...@smartt.com
VE7ABW@VE7ROB.#VANC.BC.CAN.NOAM
Henry E Schaffer
> ...
>Well, the FAQ is wrong.
Hey - perhaps one might check what the FAQ actually says first.
>It is unlawful to carry them in Canada
>without a license.
Noted - however this doesn't contradict the statement in the last
version of the FAQ
Is it legal to carry lock picks?
This depends on where you are. In the U.S. the common case seems to
be that it is legal to carry potential "burglar tools" such as keys,
picks, crowbars, jacks, bricks, etc., but use of such tools to commit
a crime is a crime in itself. Call your local library, district
attorney, police department, or your own attorney to be sure. Posession
of potential "burglar tools" can be be used as evidence against you if
you are found in incriminating circumstances. An example of a state law
can be found in the Viginia State Code: Section 18.2-94
_Possession of burglarious tools, etc._
"If any person have in his possession any tools, implements or
outfit, with intent to commit burglary, robbery or larceny, upon
conviction thereof he shall be guilty of a Class 5 felony."<p>
Note that the prosecution has to prove "intent". However, the law
continues: "The possession of such burglarious tools, implements
or outfit by any person other than a licensed dealer, shall be
prima facie evidence of an intent to commit burglary, robbery or
larceny." This means that the possesor can have a bit of an uphill
battle and has to convince the jury that this 'prima facie evidence'
is misleading.
---------
There may be some confusion about the short section which follows the
above:
Places where it *is* illegal to carry lock picks:
The District of Columbia.
--------
This wasn't intended to be an exhaustive world-wide list, but rather
an addition to the previous section. It would be rather naive to read
it as a guarantee that carrying is legal every place in the world except
in DC.
I have some extra material, gathered from recent discussion, which
will be added to the next version.
--
--henry schaffer
h...@ncsu.edu
Michael G. Ash, CCE
mar...@watson.ibm.com (Larry Margolis) wrote:
>In <4h9h5o$m...@monmouth.edu>, s012...@hawkmail.monmouth.edu (Dave "The LockSmith" Rible) writes:
>>Larry Margolis (mar...@watson.IBM.com) wrote:
>>: In <4h6vv7$c...@monmouth.edu>, s012...@hawkmail.monmouth.edu (Dave "The LockSmith" Rible) writes:
>>: >Big E (ea...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>>: >: Does anyone out there know what the laws and
>>: >: and restrictions are for carrying lockpicks
>>: >: in N.J.?
>>: > If I am not mistaken,
>>
>>
>>: >lock picks are burglary tools.
>>
>>: So's a hammer, screwdriver, credit card, ...
>>
>>: >Therefore it is a criminal act to carry them.
>>
>>: It's a criminal act to commit a crime with them. I don't know
>>: what the laws are in NJ specifically, but in most places in the
>>: U.S. it's *not* illegal to simply be in posession of lockpicks.
>>: If you should be caught in the act of burglary, criminal
>>: tresspass, etc., then an additional charge of posession of
>>: burglar's tools could be brought against you. But the same goes
>>: for the big screwdriver, etc.
>>
>>HEy Larry,
>
>
>> I spoke to my Criminology professor who was a defense attorney,
>
>NJ. :-)
>
>>he stated
>>that it is illegal to carry lock picks, whether the intent is to committ a
>>crime or not. Unless you are a registered security professional.
>
> Two different New Jersey Statutes apply to that question,
> N.J.S. 2C:5-5 and 2C:5-6. The former is a statute regarding
> burglary tools and for a violation requires an intent to use
> it in an unlawful manner (ie. to commit a burglary). If the
> State were unable to prove an unlawful purpose, no charges
> would be able to stand. The second statute regards motor
> vehicle master keys; with regard to that statute it is illegal
> for any person to "knowingly possess a motor vehicle master
> key or device designed to operate a lock or locks on motor
> vehicles or to start a motor vehicle without an ignition key
A statute which references "Locksmiths" is vague, unless your state actually license
locksmiths. All laws have to contain definitons. If the law doesn't contain such a
definition, and there is no licensing, what constitutes a locksmith?
Name: Michael G. Ash, CCE "The World's best warranty is an unpaid bill."
Occupation: Credit Manager, United Plumbing Technologies - Newington, CT
E-Mail: ma...@nai.net "College doesn't make fools; It educates them."
Michael G. Ash, CCE
Michael G. Ash, CCE
>bi...@PEAK.ORG (Bill Nelson) wrote:
>>: In Canada, it is a criminal offence to possess B&E tools. You do not
>>: have to have any criminal intent. Simple possession is illegal.
>
>>If that is true, then all of the following (and more) would be illegal to
>>possess:
>
>>A screwdriver, pipewrench, dent puller, bolt cutter, hammer, paperclip,
>>credit card, hacksaw blade, ax, plastic pocket calendar, Vice grips,
>>pipe, prybar, knife, automobile jack, metal strips, metal strapping,
>>channel lock pliers etc.
>
>>Sounds like your law is as stupid as some of the laws here in the US.
>
>>Bill
>
>stupidity. We here in Canada work pretty hard at it too.
>
>I used to have the particular law because I had an argument with a
>policeman friend of mine regarding the intent part. The Canadian law
>doesn't require intend, but it does specify lawful purpose. So, if
>you are a body man, you can have a dent puller (or if you do your own
>body work). Anyone can have a screw driver. Lockpicks and slim jims
>are designed for a distinctive purpose. In order to have a lawful
>purpose [THIS IS INTENT!!] If you make a living as a locksmith, and have such tools
you have lawful purpose. If you have such tools, but DO NOT make a living as a
locksmith, you DON'T have lawful purpose.
Misha J. Burnett
>Of course the odds of you being searched are probably one in a million in
>the normal course of your life, but if you decide you need to press the
>point by walking up to a police person and tell them that you have on your
>person lockpicking tools and what are they going to do about it and get
>arrested and go to court, be sure that you hire your own lawyer.
>Mike
You know, I've had a number of police officers who've asked me to
teach them how to use their new set of lockpicks. While there may not
be a law against carrying picks, I suspect they they are quite likely
to get lost somewhere in the station house if you get picked up for
something else. One could always sue for recovery, I suppose, but in
my experience there is the Law, and then there is the Real World, and
it's not a good idea to confuse the two.
Misha
Bill Nelson
: >: In Canada, it is a criminal offence to possess B&E tools. You do not
: >: have to have any criminal intent. Simple possession is illegal.
: >
: >If that is true, then all of the following (and more) would be illegal to
: >possess:
: >
: >A screwdriver, pipewrench, dent puller, bolt cutter, hammer, paperclip,
: >credit card, hacksaw blade, ax, plastic pocket calendar, Vice grips,
: >pipe, prybar, knife, automobile jack, metal strips, metal strapping,
: >channel lock pliers etc.
: >
: >Sounds like your law is as stupid as some of the laws here in the US.
: >
: >Bill
No, many of us are better.
So, what's the problem? Does it not bother you that our respective
governments can write, enact and enforce such stupid laws?
Bill
miachl...@gmail.com
> Does anyone out there know what the laws and
> and restrictions are for carrying lockpicks
> in N.J.?
>
>
> Big E
gall...@mcvts.net
> : Does anyone out there know what the laws and
> : and restrictions are for carrying lockpicks
> : in N.J.?
>
>
> : Thanks if you can help,
> : Big E
>
> If I am not mistaken, lock picks are burglary tools. Therefore it is a
> professional. B/c there would be no real reason to have them on your person,
> unless you were of the fore mentioned ppl. Unless you were going to committ
> a illegal act.
> Top Security Locksmiths, Inc.
In NJ they are only considered burglary tools if intent to use them as such can be proven. Otherwise they are legal to carry in NJ. It is used as sort of an add-on offense in theft cases.
https://toool.us/laws.html#NJ
gall...@mcvts.net
> Does anyone out there know what the laws and
> and restrictions are for carrying lockpicks
> in N.J.?
>
>
> Thanks if you can help,
> Big E