DEFEATING TUBULAR LOCKS(by Freddie the wire)
Freddie...@webtv.net
on defeating greenwald--ace--and coin vault locks--the tubular kind----I
also have received several e-mails from some of the real locksmiths in
here requesting that I please not post that info---well I was divided as
what I should do--after all you people are my fans and I have promised
to share my knowledge with you--but the lock jocks that asked me not to
post that info all seem to be the REAL stand up lock jocks that frequent
billy bob boneheads NG---and although my feelings towards the real
locksmiths---who i do respect as professionals---is ok---my feelings
towards billy bob bonehead--AAAnus--J(unior) P(enis)---dennis the
cartoon character--rico the clown---and that british fairy --whatever
his name was--LOL--my feeling towards these idiots out weigh my respect
for the real lock jocks here--so to the stand up real pro lock jocks--i
apologize---but I am going to print 2 methods of attack on these types
of locks---and if you guys have a problem with it then i guess you can
either ignore it or join up with billy bob bonehead and his team of
clowns--LOL
OK--heres method #1---drill them open----you need a hole saw that is the
diameter of the face ring of the tubular lock---what you want to do is
drill out the face of the lock and once thru you will be able to "empty"
the pins out of their respective chambers and open the
lock---however--this approach obviously damages the lock---so ----
Method #2----pick them open---to make a home made pick for tubular locks
you need a tubular key---it does not have to be a blank key--it can be
one that is already cut---because you are going to file away the outside
of the key where the cuts are---file the key all the way around the
outside diameter of the key until you can insert the key into a tubular
lock and physically see the pins on the side of the key---you also want
to file enough of the blank away so that the side of the key does not
come in contact with the pin tumblers---once you have the key filed in
this manner you will have to file off the little nub--or--"tit" that is
on the outside of the front of the key----this tit should be filed level
with the key---there is an identical little "nub" on the inside of the
barrel of the key---do NOT file this tit off--this nub is the thing that
apply's the turning tension on the lock--the outside nub only guides the
key into the lock---OK---now you will need either a very thin piece of
round spring steel--or a small sewing needle----picking these types off
locks is generally the same as picking any pin tumbler lock---except the
tumblers are arranged in a circle instead of a straight line---and
generally the are 7 tumblers---sometimes 8 sometimes 6---but mostly
7----now insert the modified "pick" key into the lock ad apply medium
turning pressure to the opening position--usually clockwise---but not
always---once you apply turning pressure--slowly start "picking" the
tumblers one at a time around the lock by lightly applying downward
pressure on them with the springsteel or needle----dont get discouraged
if it takes you a while to pick open your first tubular lock--they
generally pick harder than regular locks especially the ace II
locks----by gently and carefully applying pressure to each pin you will
bring that tumbler to its shear line and because you are keeping a
constant turning tension on the "plug" of the lock you will "trap" each
tumbler at its shear line---if one tumbler will not stay at its shear
line after a couple of attempts---move on to the next pin and come back
to that tumbler after---because of the way locks are machined they are
not machined perfectly--that is the reason locks can be picked---all you
have to do is figure out which order the imperfections line up
in--also-you will have to be careful when you successfully pick the lock
open---you only want to move the plug about 1/16 of turn and trap all
the tumblers in their unlocked position--the reason is because these
locks will re-lock themselves at every 1/8th of a turn--and you really
don't want to keep picking the lock over and over---so once you have
successfully picked the lock open and turned it 1/16th of a turn what
you want to do is light a candle--and pour some melted wax into the
locks "groove" or keyway where the pins are--you want to trap the
tumblers into there unlocked position and the wax will do that when it
cools--it will also make a mess--LOL--but people will just think kids
were screwing around with them trying to "gum" them up---if you don't
want to use the wax method thats ok--most of these locks---the ones that
don't unscrew to open--only have to be turned anywhere from a quarter to
a half of a turn--so the ones that only have to turn to 90 degrees to
open have to be picked twice---the ones that have to be turned to 180
degrees to open have to be picked 4 times--but remember--if you want
this to be a black op--and no-one to know that means you have to pick
the lock in the opposite direction that many times to secure it
again!--you should buy a tubular lock to practice with--if your local
lockjock wont sell one to you just go to radio shack---they sell them
for about 10 dollars and they come with 2 keys---they sell them to go
with their alarm systems--but they also sell them
separately----remember---don't get discouraged after only a couple of
tries---learning to pick locks is a semi difficult task--and learning to
pick tubular locks is even more difficult----so be patient---and good
luck----also---if you are attempting to "pick" open the tubular locks on
the washing machines at a coin op laundry mat--these machines locks are
guarded by a hardened "box" and you must have a longer tubular key to
open it---and no-one I know of other than locksmiths and laundry machine
wholesalers have these types of locks and keys---so if you need the
longer key to modify it into your pick--you'll have to order one from a
locksmith--and you will also have to pay big for it!!-because they will
want to know the cuts--and you don't know them so you will have to
purchase an entire lock from them!!
as for the flamers---bite me--LOL---you guys couldn't figure out your
birth dates let alone who I actually am---so don't exhaust all of your
brain cells---what little bit you have----cause you are not nearly
intelligent as you think you are----LOL
and billy bob bonehead---pucker up and kiss my ass,you lame brain---fake
ass locksmith----he takes a stupid home course and introduces himself as
a locksmith---just because your boyfriends AAAnus and that english fairy
like you that does not mean you are a REAL locksmith you moron!!!----and
as far as the billy bob bonehead disciples----don't forget to have your
lips surgically sewn on billy bob ass before kissing up to him---you
pathetic excuses for humans---ok--for the flamers--your dismissed---for
my fans---have fun and good luck---don't forget---post what you want to
know and if I know how to defeat it I will tell you--but remember-I am
not like billy bob and his clan of clowns--I will only tell you how to
do something I have physically done---I never give out bullshit
advice---like him and his disciples!!!!!
Freddie-(glad to be back)--the Wire
Peter
Freddie...@webtv.net pontificates...
>
>OK people--when I was away I received a ton of messages requesting info
>on defeating greenwald--ace--and coin vault locks--the tubular kind----I
>also have received several e-mails from some of the real locksmiths in
>here requesting that I please not post that info---
Thanks very much for posting this information and in doing so, undermining
the success of the thousands of mom and pop businesses who rely on these
locks to protect their revenue and property.
When you find that the local automat has closed, have to wash your clothes in
the basin and see the ex-owner scavanging aluminium cans to eke out an
existance, you might then see the need to help maintain the integrity of
locks by not publishing compromising information.
Peter
bobb...@my-deja.com
pmi...@the.net.nz wrote:
> In article <17788-39...@storefull-281.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
> Freddie...@webtv.net pontificates...
> >
info
> >on defeating greenwald--ace--and coin vault locks--the tubular kind--
--I
> >also have received several e-mails from some of the real locksmiths
in
> [snip]
>
> Thanks very much for posting this information and in doing so,
undermining
> the success of the thousands of mom and pop businesses who rely on
these
> locks to protect their revenue and property.
>
> When you find that the local automat has closed, have to wash your
clothes in
> the basin and see the ex-owner scavanging aluminium cans to eke out
an
> existance, you might then see the need to help maintain the integrity
of
> locks by not publishing compromising information.
>
> Peter
most washing machines & such are attacked with a welding torch- this is
much quicker and requires less brains. I have drilled out these locks,
and like a lot of things its easier said then done. anyone depending
entirely on locks-well if there no smarter then that... You get
insurance!!! IMO the "Ace" type locks were compromised a long time ago-
because this information is now out to the public- its a good reason
for store owners to upgrade there lock security.
I try to think of security like the safe people do- every time someone
has developed a method to break in-(because some one told them how to
do it-(or developed on there own) the SAFE companies redesign there
safes- so its a constant battle- so if what freedie and others (IMO) do
by exposing weakness- causes the lock manufactures to redesign there
locks- its part of the cycle
--
Every day above ground is a good day!!
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
JOCKTEC
If the wrong person is here to learn... Then they have a lot of time on their
hands.
I just read in our local paper that a U-DO-IT car wash had it's hamilton
changer removed with a blow torch... Ive looked at them, the only way a
"locksmith" would be able to do it would be to pick the locks on the building
door (this one had 3- a knob & 2 d/bolts) try to block the alarm, then "pick"
or somehow get the back of the changer off to get the money. ALOT of time. So
telling the public HOW to open an ACE type of lock - well they are not going
to take the time. CUTTING a changer out of the wall --- well thats a NO
brainer!!
Jeff - jOc...@aolphuckoff.com
"Keyman"
A car wash changer is not the only thing that an ACE type of lock
is used on...
Most vending type machines that use the ACE type are not
protected by a door with three locks and an alarm.
This is a scenario that you have added to the equation and has
nothing to do with the reason that info shouldn't be posted.
ACE type locks on the others can be defeated in sort order with
the right tools and know-how and also with out any trace or
damage.
This is why its NOT good to tell everyone how to defeat that
lock.
I guess that some will NEVER understand this.
No matter how many ways its explained to them...
--
"Keyman"
"JOCKTEC" <joc...@aol.comphuckoff> wrote in message
news:20000514213836...@ng-co1.aol.com...
> I agree.
>
> If the wrong person is here to learn... Then they have a lot of
time on their
> hands.
> I just read in our local paper that a U-DO-IT car wash had it's
hamilton
> changer removed with a blow torch... Ive looked at them, the
only way a
> "locksmith" would be able to do it would be to pick the locks
on the building
> door (this one had ACE type of lock ) try to block the alarm,
Jay Hennigan
:A car wash changer is not the only thing that an ACE type of lock
:is used on...
:Most vending type machines that use the ACE type are not
:protected by a door with three locks and an alarm.
I haven't seen vending machines with ACE style locks on them still
in commercial service for the last few years. Medeco and Abloy T-handle
types are the norm. On anything outdoors a big fat American "hockey-puck"
padlock and large hasp as well, just for added measure.
About the only common use for ACE locks these days seems to be for
bicycle locks. You used to see them on alarm systems, but these are
almost always keypads now.
: ACE type locks on the others can be defeated in sort order with
:the right tools and know-how and also with out any trace or
:damage.
Yep.
:This is why its NOT good to tell everyone how to defeat that
:lock.
No, that's why it IS good to tell everyone. So they'll quit using
them where they are not suited, because as you say they can be defeated
in short order.
:I guess that some will NEVER understand this.
:No matter how many ways its explained to them...
Apparently you still don't get it. Do you say, "Yes, Mr. customer,
that ACE lock is an excellent choice for high security...?"
--
Jay Hennigan - Network Administration - j...@west.net
NetLojix Communications, Inc. NASDAQ: NETX - http://www.netlojix.com/
WestNet: Connecting you to the planet. 805 884-6323
"Keyman"
> I haven't seen vending machines with ACE style locks on them
still
> in commercial service for the last few years. Medeco and Abloy
T-handle
> types are the norm. On anything outdoors a big fat American
"hockey-puck"
> padlock and large hasp as well, just for added measure.
Yea things are changing but there are still many around in my
neck of the woods.
> About the only common use for ACE locks these days seems to be
for
> bicycle locks. You used to see them on alarm systems, but
these are
> almost always keypads now.
I was talking about Tubular type locks, like the ACE type lock.
There are many still around here on the alarm box's themselves..
> No, that's why it IS good to tell everyone. So they'll quit
using
> them where they are not suited, because as you say they can be
defeated
> in short order.
It is good to inform someone that they need a better lock
application but not necessary to show everyone how to defeat it
to prove the point..
As long as they there are any out there being used, its not a
good idea to tell undesirables how to defeat them.
Just because new technology comes on the market, it doesn't mean
that Everyone will throw away what they have and upgrade.
Many folks use an outdated Computer when they would be better off
with updated one...
> Apparently you still don't get it.
I am not the one that doesn't get it.
This whole thing has to do with the wrong in posting methods of
defeating a lock on an open forum...
> Do you say, "Yes, Mr. customer,
> that ACE lock is an excellent choice for high security...?"
No and I never said anything about using an ACE type lock for
high security.
You are wondering again:-)))
--
"Keyman"
"Jay Hennigan" <j...@west.net> wrote in message
news:slrn8hv71...@slowpoke.sb.west.net...
Edskeys
security chip. That's outdated.
If someone comes out with a new lock the old ones not only go down in price so
more people will buy them but the people that have them think they're secure,
they're not locksmiths and all they see is a lock that everyone else has so
they think it's secure so why change it. The Club is a good example of this
line of reasoning.
Excuse me for being so blunt but it is silly to think that posting information
on an open fourm on how to defeat a lock that is still in wide spread use is
O.K. These locks are everywhere.
Hell, why don't we all just give Freddie and everyone like him all of our keys
if it is O.K. to post this kind of info here and save them the trouble of
bypassing our locks.
Ed
Jay Hennigan
:
:... its a regional thing.... I got a lot of them in use here
:still, EXCEPT on the money changers...
A fair percentage of the money changers around here have the oversized
UL style tubular locks, with the "pin-within-a-pin" scheme. Better than
the regular ACE style. Brute-force still seems to be the method of
choice for crooks.
And no one has taken me up on the challenge to find one crime anywhere
in the world the commission of which was facilitated by information found
here.
Jay Hennigan
:Maybe I should give someone the key to my truck because it's a 5 cut without a
:security chip. That's outdated.
That's not the issue. You know its weaknesses and make an _informed_
choice to continue relying on it for security. Your customers, if you
are a for-hire locksmith, are making an _uninformed_ choice. At least
it is an uninformed choice until the weaknesses become common knowledge,
at which time either their choice will now be an informed one or they
will upgrade their security.
If they upgrade their security, there are two benefits. They have a more
secure lock, and the locksmithing industry profits. I would think that you
would _endorse_ this. If they choose not to upgrade their locks, now that
they know better they may not leave valuables in that "locked" truck.
:If someone comes out with a new lock the old ones not only go down in price so
:more people will buy them but the people that have them think they're secure,
:they're not locksmiths and all they see is a lock that everyone else has so
:they think it's secure so why change it. The Club is a good example of this
:line of reasoning.
So educate them. And sell them a more secure, more expensive lock.
:Excuse me for being so blunt but it is silly to think that posting information
:on an open fourm on how to defeat a lock that is still in wide spread use is
:O.K. These locks are everywhere.
Exactly the point. These locks are everywhere because people don't know
any better. Freddy is doing the public and the paid locksmiths a service.
He is pointing out that most people have their heads in the sand when it
comes to common methods of lockpicking and are living under a very false
sense of security. By pointing out this folly, he is encouraging the
public to upgrade and enabling the locksmithing community to sell better,
more secure (and more profitable) hardware.
:Hell, why don't we all just give Freddie and everyone like him all of our keys
:if it is O.K. to post this kind of info here and save them the trouble of
:bypassing our locks.
If you are using Kwikset, you might as well. The time it takes a knowlegable
person to open one is about the same, key or no key.
Or you could just get better locks to slow the Freddies down.
"Keyman"
> That's not the issue. You know its weaknesses and make an
_informed_
> choice to continue relying on it for security. Your customers,
if you
> are a for-hire locksmith, are making an _uninformed_ choice.
At least
> it is an uninformed choice until the weaknesses become common
knowledge,
> at which time either their choice will now be an informed one
or they
> will upgrade their security.
Jay,
Read the subject of the thread.
"DEFEATING TUBULAR LOCKS"
The issue is about giving out that type of info on an open
forum...
> Freddy is doing the public and the paid locksmiths a service.
> He is pointing out that most people have their heads in the
sand when it
> comes to common methods of lockpicking and are living under a
very false
> sense of security. By pointing out this folly, he is
encouraging the
> public to upgrade and enabling the locksmithing community to
sell better,
> more secure (and more profitable) hardware.
Thats bull....
Freddie is doing this on purpose because he is mad at some on
this group.
And everyone that is on his side also has no clue about ethics or
the understanding of why this type of info should NOT be posted
on an open forum.
If someone wanted this type of info, they can get it somewhere
else on the WWW
its out there...
True Professionals will not give it and thats the bottom line..
--
"Keyman"
"Jay Hennigan" <j...@west.net> wrote in message
news:slrn8i093...@slowpoke.sb.west.net...
"Keyman"
> And no one has taken me up on the challenge to find one crime
anywhere
> in the world the commission of which was facilitated by
information found
> here.
Like I stated before, Jay.
There would be no way to tell where one learned how to defeat any
given lock.
The thief sure is not going to say that he learned it on
alt.locksmithing..
Why would he tell anyone where he learned it ??
You are being very close minded to think that everyone that comes
to this or any open forum are good honest people.
Wake up, this is the real world...
--
"Keyman"
news:slrn8i07u...@slowpoke.sb.west.net...
> On 15 May 2000 14:20:28 GMT, --Shiva-- <shiv...@pcis.net>
wrote:
> :
> :... its a regional thing.... I got a lot of them in use here
> :still, EXCEPT on the money changers...
>
> A fair percentage of the money changers around here have the
oversized
> UL style tubular locks, with the "pin-within-a-pin" scheme.
Better than
> the regular ACE style. Brute-force still seems to be the
method of
> choice for crooks.
>
> And no one has taken me up on the challenge to find one crime
anywhere
> in the world the commission of which was facilitated by
information found
> here.
>
Rick
>in the world the commission of which was facilitated by information found
>here
I recall reading something a couple of weeks ago on this news group.
The writer was thanking Freddie for the info regarding opening a supra box.
The writer _claimed_ to have removed some cash and a stereo from a home for
sale with a key in a realtor's box. Of course that may have been untrue, and
the source is not open to verification, and I still haven't tried the
technique for myself. Still, it may be true...
On the other topic, I don't understand your stance against "security
through obscurity". When it comes down to it, that's really all there is to
any security. If you sold a state -of-the-art top priced most recommended
lock or safe to Freddie and he took it home and took it apart he could
publish all the weak points so your products would have to be down-graded.
Re-design and retool takes a lot more time and effort than disassemble and
shoot your mouth off. It takes ages just to get all vehicles involved in a
Mfg. recall through the service-and that's free. Imagine what it will take
to get everybody who needs it up to date. Linus Yale's night latch is still
on a lot of doors and still at your local hardware store. We can't help
everyone, but we have as part of our profession a responsibility to maintain
some degree of obscurity about things like drill-points and opening
techniques. One thing all locks have in common is a weak spot. Tickling it
is SUPPOSED to be difficult. Granted in the case of a master padlock you
don't have much more than an illusion of security. But giving out info on
drilling a G.M. ignition is insupportable. And the sad part is if the sick
little fuck can succeed in getting the high security goods he bought from
you all back together, he will bring them back for a refund(more likely he
won't be capable of building anything, and he'll hand you a bag full of
parts and claim it was defective and _still_ expect his money back).
Jay Hennigan wrote in message ...
>On 15 May 2000 14:20:28 GMT, --Shiva-- <shiv...@pcis.net> wrote:
>:
>:... its a regional thing.... I got a lot of them in use here
>:still, EXCEPT on the money changers...
>
>A fair percentage of the money changers around here have the oversized
>UL style tubular locks, with the "pin-within-a-pin" scheme. Better than
>the regular ACE style. Brute-force still seems to be the method of
>choice for crooks.
>
bobb...@my-deja.com
now have to face the fact that, for what ever reason- more "freedies"
will be posting information on locks that we would rather not see in a
public form..but... even making it illegal will not stop it- So we
have to change--the "genie" is not going back in the bottle. By
accepting this fact- I dont get upset about what is being posted, but
rather try to adjust to it and move on.
> > Jay Hennigan - Network Administration - j...@west.net
> > NetLojix Communications, Inc. NASDAQ: NETX -
> http://www.netlojix.com/
> > WestNet: Connecting you to the planet. 805 884-6323
>
>
--
Locksmith Charley
NO KEYHOLE? probably a magnetic device????
\"Keyman\" wrote:
> "JOCKTEC",
>
> A car wash changer is not the only thing that an ACE type of lock
> is used on...
> Most vending type machines that use the ACE type are not
> protected by a door with three locks and an alarm.
> This is a scenario that you have added to the equation and has
> nothing to do with the reason that info shouldn't be posted.
>
> ACE type locks on the others can be defeated in sort order with
> the right tools and know-how and also with out any trace or
> damage.
> This is why its NOT good to tell everyone how to defeat that
> lock.
>
> I guess that some will NEVER understand this.
> No matter how many ways its explained to them...
>
pops...@gmail.com
You talk about your respect for legitimate locksmiths, yet you say your respect for the "clowns" outweighs that respect. It makes you no better than those "clowns", who are, by the way, criminals.
Someone in this thread mentioned it's no big deal...apartment complexes and laundromats have insurance. Yes...yes we do...and that insurance is very expensive. Additionally, the deductible for our complex is so high, we still have to eat all this damage "out of pocket". The conservative estimate at this point is that last year alone, between lost monies and damages, we lost nearly $5000. Thanks....thanks a whole lot for nothing!