A Chaucer pronunciation question

[amc...@gmail.com]

In "The Knight's Tale", two main characters are Palamon and Arcite.
How is the name "Arcite" properly pronounced?

Thanks,
Alasdair

[ffoulkes]

amc...@gmail.com wrote:

> In "The Knight's Tale", two main characters
> are Palamon and Arcite. How is the name "Arcite"
> properly pronounced?

I like to remember that it derives from Boccaccio's
*Arcita e Palemone* and give it a vaguely modern-day
Eyetie pronunciation: "ah-Chee-ter".

ff

[Don Phillipson]

<amc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1137332324.0...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

> In "The Knight's Tale", two main characters are Palamon and Arcite.
> How is the name "Arcite" properly pronounced?

Scansion suggests three syllables (not two) as
Arkitay or something like that.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[rp...@hotmail.com]

The meter sometimes requires a disyllabic pronunciation (ahr-SEET) and
sometimes a trisyllabic one (ahr-SEE-tuh--in Robinson's edition, at
least, the spelling "Arcita" appears in some [but not all] of these
cases). If I were referring to the two guys in a lecture on KT, I think
I'd go with "ahr-SEET."

RPN

[rp...@hotmail.com]

Dammit, I just reread my post, and the last sentence should read "If I

were referring to the two guys in a lecture on KT, I think I'd go with

'ahr-SEE-tuh'" (which would be [approximately] the normal pronunciation
of the word [in isolation] in Middle English).

RPN

[Meg Worley]

Alasdair had asked:

>> > In "The Knight's Tale", two main characters are Palamon and Arcite.
>> > How is the name "Arcite" properly pronounced?

The Chaucer scholars on both sides of the pond generally say "AR-see-tay,"
for what that's worth.

Rage away,

meg

--

Meg Worley _._ m...@steam.stanford.edu _._ Comparatively Literate

[jadel]

Meg Worley wrote:
> Alasdair had asked:
> >> > In "The Knight's Tale", two main characters are Palamon and Arcite.
> >> > How is the name "Arcite" properly pronounced?
>
> The Chaucer scholars on both sides of the pond generally say "AR-see-tay,"
> for what that's worth.

Why, it's Ms Worley, looking as if she were alive.

"AR-see-tay" is the way I heard it eons ago in a Chaucer class

J. Del Col.

[Paul Ilechko]

And there I was hoping it was "arse 'ite", which describes how long a
Cockney's legs are ...

[Walker]

I was wondering how long that would take. :) The pronunciation (and
mischievously repeated variants) often raised a um...titter, when we
studied The Canterbury Tales at school.

--
Walker Moore
http://arty.me.uk

[rp...@hotmail.com]

Meg Worley wrote:
> Alasdair had asked:
> >> > In "The Knight's Tale", two main characters are Palamon and Arcite.
> >> > How is the name "Arcite" properly pronounced?
>
> The Chaucer scholars on both sides of the pond generally say "AR-see-tay,"
> for what that's worth.

I wonder why, when that pronunciation won't work in the poem itself,
where "Arcite" is rhymed with words like "endite" (pronounced
ehn-DEE-tuh), "quite" (pronounced KWEE-tuh), and "lite" (pronounced
LEE-tuh).

RPN

[Walker]

Although a very regular 'a b a b a c c' pattern is evident, the
off-rhyme between 'fynde' and 'bite' suggests Chaucer wasn't too
concerned with strict end-rhymes throughout. Besides: Arcite & endite,
quite & lite (with the pronunciation you suggest) and find & byte all
echo through assonance, so the general form is still rather satisfying.

[amc...@gmail.com]

Thanks folks! I was OK with the final "e": sometimes heavily
pronounced (after all, the spelling "Arcita" is used), and sometimes
swallowed, depending on the scansion of the line. But I was
particularly interested in the "c": whether it should be French
(AR-see-tay, AR-see-tuh), or Italian, from Boccaccio (AR-chee-tay).

But it seems that the scholarly opinion of this group is to go for the
French version.

Thanks again.

-Alasdair

[rp...@hotmail.com]

Walker wrote:
> Although a very regular 'a b a b a c c' pattern is evident,

You're thinking of "Anelida and Arcite"--though that's not completely
irrelevant. The Knight's Tale, which is what we were talking about, is
in rhymed couplets. (And that rhyme scheme should be a b a b *b* c c.)

RPN

[Walker]

Ah, sorry. I thought your comment about "Arcite" being rhymed with
"endite" was _Anelida and Arcite_ specific because "endite" doesn't
occur in (ahem, my copy of) _The Knight's Tale_.

[rp...@hotmail.com]

Well, unless I've miscounted, the rhyme with "endite" occurs four times
in KT in Robinson's second edition of Chaucer's works (lines 1209-10,
1379-80, 1871-72, and 2741-42 of the A fragment). But I think we've
reached the point of diminishing returns in this discussion.

RPN

[Walker]

Well yes, but I'm glad you pointed out my mistakes. I need new glasses,
or something.

Thanks.

[Shaun]

Kind of like the way Byron rhymes 'Juan' with 'new one,' which suggests
an alternate speaking of Juan: instead of 'Don Wan,' as we say it, it
sounds like 'Don Ju-one.'

Takers, anybody?

[Paul Ilechko]

Byron did not write nursery rhymes.

[Walker]

Hmm, I suppose upper-crust English speakers of the old school (like
Byron) could have been so reliant on "one" as a pronoun that other words
naturally had an assonant relationship with it.

"How does _one_ find London Mr Hu-one?"

Speaking of upper-crust English accents, I very much miss the long lost
tradition of adding Y noises near certain vowels -- best demonstrated by
Celia Johnson in _Brief Encounter_.

"I went eybsolutely myad and bought a new hyat."

But I digress. ;-)

[Paul Ilechko]

Walker wrote:

> Speaking of upper-crust English accents, I very much miss the long lost
> tradition of adding Y noises near certain vowels -- best demonstrated by
> Celia Johnson in _Brief Encounter_.
>
> "I went eybsolutely myad and bought a new hyat."
>
> But I digress. ;-)

Digression is good ;-)

Currently reading The Towers of Trebizond, and it's interesting to read
about Father Chantry-Pigg's upper crust habit of never pronouncing an
"l" before a consonant. So Wolf becomes Woof, Golf is Gof, an Elm tree
is an Em and so on.

[ffoulkes]

The same persons would probably also drop the "g" in "ing" so:

"Currently readin' The Towers of Trebizond, and it's interestin' to read
about Father Chantry-Pigg's upper crust habit of never pronouncin' an

"l" before a consonant. So Wolf becomes Woof, Golf is Gof, an Elm tree
is an Em and so on."

This stuff is neither "U" nor "RP", but just a fashionable lazy way of
talkin'. Carmichael's "Wimsey" is an exemplar, but Sayers was Not Amused.

ffoulkes

[jadel]

ffoulkes wrote:

And down there in Baja Kentucky "golf" is pronounced "Gawf" or "NASCAR"

J. Del Col.

[Paul Ilechko]

ffoulkes wrote:

> The same persons would probably also drop the "g" in "ing" so:
>
> "Currently readin' The Towers of Trebizond, and it's interestin' to read
> about Father Chantry-Pigg's upper crust habit of never pronouncin' an
> "l" before a consonant. So Wolf becomes Woof, Golf is Gof, an Elm tree
> is an Em and so on."
>
> This stuff is neither "U" nor "RP", but just a fashionable lazy way of
> talkin'. Carmichael's "Wimsey" is an exemplar, but Sayers was Not Amused.

Would you like your camel now ?

[Walker]

That's the accent used by Tim Nice But Dim
(http://www.geocities.com/harryenf/tim.html) -- a Harry Enfield
character. It sounds rather half-soaked when you hear it, but I suppose
that's what happens when families are bred like pedigree dogs. ;)

[John W. Kennedy]

It would have been difficult, seeing that she had been dead for 15
years, but, in fact, Sayers' original Wimsey does the same thing.

--
John W. Kennedy
"But now is a new thing which is very old--
that the rich make themselves richer and not poorer,
which is the true Gospel, for the poor's sake."
-- Charles Williams. "Judgement at Chelmsford"

[Paul Ilechko]

Walker wrote:

>
> That's the accent used by Tim Nice But Dim
> (http://www.geocities.com/harryenf/tim.html) -- a Harry Enfield
> character. It sounds rather half-soaked when you hear it, but I suppose
> that's what happens when families are bred like pedigree dogs. ;)
>

Yes, one of Kate Atkinson's characters in the excellent "Case Histories"
has an amusing take on British Upper Class inbreeding. Actually, the
dogs are generally smarter, and have better coats.

[Alan Hope]

Paul Ilechko goes:

>Currently reading The Towers of Trebizond, and it's interesting to read
>about Father Chantry-Pigg's upper crust habit of never pronouncing an
>"l" before a consonant. So Wolf becomes Woof, Golf is Gof, an Elm tree
>is an Em and so on.

Presumably why Ralphie Vaughan-Williams is known to his friends as
Rafe.

--
AH

[Paul Ilechko]

As is Mr. Fiennes, apparently. Pretentious twat.

[Alan Hope]

Paul Ilechko goes:

I suspect it's possibly not his fault, entirely. He was probably being
called Rafe before he got any say in the matter.

There's a polar explorer guy called Fiennes with a forename of
Ranulph. Wonder if they're related? And is he called Ranafe?

--
AH

[David Matthews]

>>> Presumably why Ralphie Vaughan-Williams is known to his friends as
>>> Rafe.
>
>>As is Mr. Fiennes, apparently. Pretentious twat.
>
> I suspect it's possibly not his fault, entirely. He was probably being
> called Rafe before he got any say in the matter.
>
> There's a polar explorer guy called Fiennes with a forename of
> Ranulph. Wonder if they're related? And is he called Ranafe?
>
>
> --
> AH
>
>

That's Sir Ranulph Twistleton-Wykeham-Fiennes if you don't mind. Arctic
explorer, ex-SAS man and teller of tall stories. No idea whether he's
related to the other Fiennes.

Dave in Toronto

[Tim Cole]

I have an orthodox Jewish brother-in-law whose name, Ralph, is pronounced
"Rafe" with a long 'a'.
I was beginning to assume a Hebrew connection to the inflection.

"Alan Hope" <not.al...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:d445u1pd6459s2vup...@4ax.com...

[David Matthews]

>>>As is Mr. Fiennes, apparently. Pretentious twat.
>>
>> I suspect it's possibly not his fault, entirely. He was probably being
>> called Rafe before he got any say in the matter.
>>
>> There's a polar explorer guy called Fiennes with a forename of
>> Ranulph. Wonder if they're related? And is he called Ranafe?
>>
>>
>> --
>> AH

Ranulph Fiennes - Artic explorer, ex SAS member and teller of tall stories
is not related to the actor- His full name and title is Sir Ranulph
Twistleton-Wykeham-Fiennes (which sounds like something out of
P.G.Wodehouse)

Dave in Toronto

[shady lady]

They are related, they are 2nd cousins. Ralph's full name is Ralph
Nathaniel Twistleton-Wykeham-Fiennes. He, and most of his family, just
use the Fiennes bit of the name. To much of a mouthful and it wouldn't
fit on the credits!!