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Tim Gadd

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Feb 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/3/97
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I'm aware that this may be taken the wrong way, and seen as
'preaching'. I hope it doesn't come across like that. People have to
make up their own minds about where to devote their energies, and I
would never want to try to pressure anyone into anything. This is only
my suggestion based on my experiences.

I basically haven't read alt.fan.furry for over a month - only the
odd post here and there - but last night I decided to go over, and I
spent several hours reading and catching up on things. I don't know
whether the experience here has just spoiled me, but I was shocked at
how bad things have become there now. Of course a lot of what I read
made me angry, and I was all set to jump in boots and all again. I
wrote a few posts but I didn't send them. The anger passed, and I was
astonished to find that I literally had tears in my eyes. I was
saddened because I know most of the folks there just want somewhere
they can talk about furry comics or whatever, and at the moment that
newsgroup just isn't fit for habitation by furries.

I noticed that a lot of ALF regulars are in the flames over on
alt.fan.furry. I know how tempting it is to jump in and start
defending yourself and others from things that get said there, but for
one reason or another I no longer believe that it will make very much
difference on aff. I now am forced to agree with Dr Cat that a single
Confurence is being made to house too many disparate furry groups;
especially after someone returning from their first CF wrote to me
that it was 'as if there were two seperate conferences going in the
same hotel.' 'Two conferences in the same hotel' reminds me of what
alt.lifestyle.furry was like before ALF was newgrouped.

I'm wandering way off track. All I wanted to suggest was that instead
of expending huge amounts of energy fighting a no-win fight on AFF,
albeit a very just cause IMO, why not post some articles here, where
they'll be welcomed. A lot of our people are away from home, and
they're missed here. How about next time instead of responding to a
flame, post something on ALF instead. I left AFF on new year's day to
try to devote my time to ALF, and I haven't looked back.

It's only a suggestion. I'm proud of anyone who wants to keep on
defending the principles of this group on AFF, but I'd just love to
see all that energy and passion going into making this place grow.

Having said that, I'm thinking about re-posting my 'Beaches' article
over there to give them something to read which doesn't burst into
flames, and hopefully demonstrate that we're not perverts or 'sad
individuals' as a couple of people are trying to imply. Mostly what
I've seen on ALF is people learning to feel good about themselves.

--
Tim Gadd
Hobart, Tasmania
<tjg...@southcom.com.au>


kim...@aol.com

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Feb 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/3/97
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In article <5d563s$2...@rat.org>, tjg...@southcom.com.au (Tim Gadd) writes:

>we're not perverts or 'sad
>individuals' as a couple of people are trying to imply. Mostly what
>I've seen on ALF is people learning to feel good about themselves.

I agree. The "lifestylers" seem in general to have a tremendous amount of
love in them. But it is very easy to get caught up in the mess when
someone posts something unreasonable. After killing a few posts and
calming down, you begin to realize that a lot of it is done just for the
purpose of getting people worked up, and not to advance any real point of
view. That's the only way I can explain the fact that nearly every thread
goes bad after 2 days. And responding to that stuff is just a waste of
energy, like you said.

OK, turning from reactive to proactive...I have an extremely personal note
that I shared in email with a couple of furries, and one suggested I share
it with the world. I feel strangely nervous about it, but my feelings have
been greeted kindly in the past, so....here goes...

I am no master of the mystic or anything, but...I think I've had a
spiritual experience (and by that I mean I don't think I've grasped the
full profoundness of it yet). Like I've said in the past, a little over a
month ago this lion just suddenly grabbed me. I felt his form surrounding
mine. I could picture myself _as_ him, and it gave me new confidence in
dealing with other people. It was thrilling to envision taking on his
form...my heart stopped when, for one too-brief moment, I actually looked
at my feet and saw paws. The physical nature of this union is not always
as strong now--and how I miss it!--but I feel like the lion's spirit has
been united (re-united?) with mine.

I started out thinking I was indulging in fantasy, but I don't think so
anymore. Has anybody ever felt this way?


Kimba
-----------------
FC1.2
FFL3a A C- D H++ M- P+ R T+++ W** Z Sm#
RLCT a++ cdnm++ d-- e++ f h++++ i+ p++ sm#

Brad Austin

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Feb 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/3/97
to

Tim Gadd wrote:
> I noticed that a lot of ALF regulars are in the flames over on
> alt.fan.furry. I know how tempting it is to jump in and start
> defending yourself and others from things that get said there, but for
> one reason or another I no longer believe that it will make very much
> difference on aff.

I see it differently. I actually noticed a significant change
in attitudes on a.f.f. as a result of this weekend's flames,
or at the very least a retrenchment, for the very first time
since I've been following the group.

> I now am forced to agree with Dr Cat that a single
> Confurence is being made to house too many disparate furry groups;
> especially after someone returning from their first CF wrote to me
> that it was 'as if there were two seperate conferences going in the
> same hotel.'

That was me, in fact.

> I'm wandering way off track. All I wanted to suggest was that instead
> of expending huge amounts of energy fighting a no-win fight on AFF,
> albeit a very just cause IMO, why not post some articles here, where
> they'll be welcomed. A lot of our people are away from home, and
> they're missed here. How about next time instead of responding to a
> flame, post something on ALF instead. I left AFF on new year's day to
> try to devote my time to ALF, and I haven't looked back.

I know it may seem odd that, despite the fact that the topics
discussed on alt.lifestyle.furry interest me much more than
those discussed on alt.fan.furry (Those on alt.fan.furry
interest me, just not as much.), I post to alt.fan.furry more
often than I do to alt.lifestyle.furry. I read both groups
primarily in order to learn things. I find I learn different
kinds of things by talking than I do by listening. The kinds
of things I need to learn at the moment about lifestyle topics
happen to be the ones I can best learn by listening, while the
ones I need to learn about fandom topics are the ones I can
best learn by talking. This probably won't make sense to
everyone, I realize.


Brad Austin
Phoenix, AZ USA
<ar...@dancris.com>
Plushophilia home page: http://www.dancris.com/~artax


Brad Austin

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Feb 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/3/97
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kimba wrote:
> I am no master of the mystic or anything, but...I think I've had a
> spiritual experience (and by that I mean I don't think I've grasped the
> full profoundness of it yet). Like I've said in the past, a little over a
> month ago this lion just suddenly grabbed me. I felt his form surrounding
> mine. I could picture myself _as_ him, and it gave me new confidence in
> dealing with other people. It was thrilling to envision taking on his
> form...my heart stopped when, for one too-brief moment, I actually looked
> at my feet and saw paws. The physical nature of this union is not always
> as strong now--and how I miss it!--but I feel like the lion's spirit has
> been united (re-united?) with mine.
>
> I started out thinking I was indulging in fantasy, but I don't think so
> anymore. Has anybody ever felt this way?

I haven't experienced that effect visually, but I frequently
experience it kinesthetically. The first time it happened I was about
12 years old and I was riding in a car in rural Colorado somewhere
between Golden and Boulder, near Rocky Flats. I happened to see a
horse grazing, and suddenly my kinesthetic sense was no longer my own,
but rather that of the horse. I think this may be somewhat similar to
the "ghost limbs" frequently reported by amputees. I've felt it many
more times since then with many different animal species, and in fact
I find I can bring it on delibrately rather easily now, at least with
mammals.

Tim Gadd

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Feb 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/3/97
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kim...@aol.com wrote:

>OK, turning from reactive to proactive...I have an extremely personal note
>that I shared in email with a couple of furries, and one suggested I share
>it with the world.

I feel lousy because I didn't answer your letter. I kept making it the
next email... next email... Well I'll answer it here then ;)

> I feel strangely nervous about it, but my feelings have
>been greeted kindly in the past, so....here goes...

>I am no master of the mystic or anything, but...I think I've had a


>spiritual experience (and by that I mean I don't think I've grasped the
>full profoundness of it yet). Like I've said in the past, a little over a
>month ago this lion just suddenly grabbed me. I felt his form surrounding
>mine. I could picture myself _as_ him, and it gave me new confidence in
>dealing with other people. It was thrilling to envision taking on his
>form...my heart stopped when, for one too-brief moment, I actually looked
>at my feet and saw paws. The physical nature of this union is not always
>as strong now--and how I miss it!--but I feel like the lion's spirit has
>been united (re-united?) with mine.

Part of the reason I've taken so long to reply to this is simply
because I didn't know how to. What you've described does seem like a
genuinely mystical experience - not that I'd really know, though :\
It's unlike anything I've ever experienced, though it seems to
_remind_ me of something someone else once described to me. I don't
remember who it was. Tirran? All I can say is it's impossible to
escape the sense of healthfullness and positiveness which seems to
glow from your description. Whatever journey you're on, it sounds like
a good one, and I'm a little jealous.

Most of all it just reminds me that there's more out there than we
know about, which always re-assures me, for some reason.

kim...@aol.com

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Feb 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/4/97
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In article <5d5lr1$8...@rat.org>, tjg...@southcom.com.au (Tim Gadd) writes:

>Whatever journey you're on, it sounds like
>a good one, and I'm a little jealous.
>
>Most of all it just reminds me that there's more out there than we
>know about, which always re-assures me, for some reason.

All I can say is it *feels* like a good journey. I am so thankful God has

blessed my like this.

And why shouldn't it be reassuring that there is more out there than we

know? If it wasn't for faith and hope, I wouldn't be here now. (And if you


read into that a meaning in addition to here in alf, you're right.)

Kimba W. L.

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Feb 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/4/97
to tjg...@southcom.com.au

Trying my first reply from news.rat.org, since Tim's note didn't show up
yet at AOL...

All I can say is it *feels* like a good journey. I am so thankful God has
blessed my like this.

And why shouldn't it be reassuring that there is more out there than we
know? If it wasn't for faith and hope, I wouldn't be here now. (And if you

read into that a meaning other than here in alf, you're right.)

--
Kimba W. L.

D.Jean Cooper

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Feb 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/4/97
to

Brad Austin wrote:

>
> kimba wrote:
> > I am no master of the mystic or anything, but...I think I've had a
> > spiritual experience (and by that I mean I don't think I've grasped the
> > full profoundness of it yet). Like I've said in the past, a little over a
> > month ago this lion just suddenly grabbed me. I felt his form surrounding
> > mine. I could picture myself _as_ him, and it gave me new confidence in
> > dealing with other people. It was thrilling to envision taking on his
> > form...my heart stopped when, for one too-brief moment, I actually looked
> > at my feet and saw paws. The physical nature of this union is not always
> > as strong now--and how I miss it!--but I feel like the lion's spirit has
> > been united (re-united?) with mine.
> >
> > I started out thinking I was indulging in fantasy, but I don't think so
> > anymore. Has anybody ever felt this way?
>
> I haven't experienced that effect visually, but I frequently
> experience it kinesthetically. The first time it happened I was about
> 12 years old and I was riding in a car in rural Colorado somewhere
> between Golden and Boulder, near Rocky Flats. I happened to see a
> horse grazing, and suddenly my kinesthetic sense was no longer my own,
> but rather that of the horse. I think this may be somewhat similar to
> the "ghost limbs" frequently reported by amputees. I've felt it many
> more times since then with many different animal species, and in fact
> I find I can bring it on delibrately rather easily now, at least with
> mammals.
>
> Brad Austin
> Phoenix, AZ USA
> <ar...@dancris.com>
> Plushophilia home page: http://www.dancris.com/~artax

Yay! to both of you. It's really different when you gain a whole new
viewpoint in another kind of body. Don't be afraid down the road,
Kimba. Such a thing can *grow* on you. The now of wolf-thought is
seldom far from me - most of the time. Now that you've experienced it,
let it ride you from time to time, in a safe environment where you won't
get hurt as you 'ken'(Scottish) the feel of lion in and around you.
A friend of mine has puma as her 'totem' and she can slip into the
mindset at the drop of a hat. I've a way to go yet to be able to do
that with wolf (big, tongue-lolling grin).
Brad, I'm envious of you. Being able to slip into various mammals is a
rarity. Unless it's a way for you to try on several different feels
until the one meant for you really hits. (Or do you have one in
particuar?) If you *do* have your true animal, then work to keep this
gift active. Like I said, it's a rare homo sap who can do the old
shamanic mind-dance and take on any animal and **be** them for a time.
Just take precautions to keep you from getting lost in that state of
mind. Sometimes it's real tempting to not come back. -Walk in Balance

Ambergold Wolfeyes
SCA: Lady Aelfreda O'Llyn Ewig
--
D.Jean Cooper
dco...@inav.net
Sig? What sig? Aaaagh! Catch it quick before it escapes onto the 'Net!

? the platypus {aka David Formosa}

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Feb 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/5/97
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Brad Austin <ar...@dancris.com> writes:

[...]

>I haven't experienced that effect visually, but I frequently
>experience it kinesthetically.

I've had simmler things happen, for a few breaf sconds I feel if I have a
tail. Such moments are tresured.

--
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header.
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. /\ /\ /\
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay? ( X X )
I can't walk but I can fly. It's lucky to be ducky \/ \/ \/

kim...@aol.com

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Feb 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/5/97
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In article <32F81A...@inav.net>, "Ambergold Wolfeyes"
<dco...@inav.net> writes:

>Such a thing can *grow* on you.

You mean it gets better? :D Each day is happier, more joy-filled than the
day before!

> Now that you've experienced it,
>let it ride you from time to time, in a safe environment where you won't
>get hurt as you 'ken'(Scottish) the feel of lion in and around you.

The only thing I was afraid of was not being understood. I feel that you
understand very well what I am experiencing, and I'm thrilled to not only
be accepted but to know others have similar experiences.

I long for the chance to ken the lion--there are far too many distractions
every day. These distractions put food on the table, but it seems like a
waste of my efforts in exchange for a paycheck. I really want to commune
with the lion, talk with other furries, live, love, laugh, and be happy
(and slip into bits of old songs on occasion).

Words like yours are a marvelous source of strength.

Ron Orr...& Tirran

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Feb 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/7/97
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<The manticore bounces happily at this thread>

Yes! That's it exactly!
I can't recall if I ever posted the story of my Transformation
here; blame it on my age-calcified brain if you like. But that sudden,
all-enveloping sense of rightness and homecoming is _exactly_ what I
felt when Tirran and I stood face-to-face in my mind's eye.
That first time was about a year and a half ago; since then his
presence has grown so strong that, in all important respects other than
physically, I've _become_ him. I think of myself as Tirran; I see him in
the mirror (a very odd experience, let me tell you); sometimes I even
feel as if I'm about to Shift, to take his form for real.
Darn it, it all makes me so blasted _happy_ to be this way! But
I wish I had discovered it much earlier; it _is_ a bit disconcerting to
have one's life change so radically at 39...

Tir'

Roofus

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Feb 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/7/97
to

That first time was about a year and a half ago; since then his
> presence has grown so strong that, in all important respects other than
> physically, I've _become_ him. I think of myself as Tirran; I see him in
> the mirror (a very odd experience, let me tell you); sometimes I even
> feel as if I'm about to Shift, to take his form for real.


I think of myself more as Roofus, too...I find my self signing papers as Roofus and
even went so far as to actually forget my name when someone asked me.....I was like
...."ROoo...ummmmmmmmmmm" It was kindof embarassing:) I certainly sign all my
e-mails to friends who so much as know I'm furry as Roofus, and when I cry I always
whimper first and howl at the end...it somehow just feels right....I have a
pathetic howl, though. I've got to work on it:)

Roofus

Rainshadow

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Feb 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/8/97
to


Ron Orr...& Tirran <griz...@vianet.on.ca> wrote in article
<1997020719...@hunt73.vianet.on.ca>...


> Yes! That's it exactly!
> I can't recall if I ever posted the story of my Transformation
> here; blame it on my age-calcified brain if you like. But that sudden,
> all-enveloping sense of rightness and homecoming is _exactly_ what I
> felt when Tirran and I stood face-to-face in my mind's eye.

> That first time was about a year and a half ago; since then his
> presence has grown so strong that, in all important respects other than
> physically, I've _become_ him. I think of myself as Tirran; I see him in
> the mirror (a very odd experience, let me tell you); sometimes I even
> feel as if I'm about to Shift, to take his form for real.

> Darn it, it all makes me so blasted _happy_ to be this way! But
> I wish I had discovered it much earlier; it _is_ a bit disconcerting to
> have one's life change so radically at 39...

In the words of Tom Robbins, "It's never too late to have a happy
childhood!"
(Not that we're children...)
--
-Rainshadow
(pank...@darwin.ucsc.edu)

"Vixen in my dreams,
a great surprise to me
I never thought I'd see your face,
and how it used to be..."
-Ten Years Gone, Led Zeppelin

kim...@aol.com

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Feb 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/8/97
to

In article <1997020719...@hunt73.vianet.on.ca>,

griz...@vianet.on.ca (Ron Orr...& Tirran) writes:

> Darn it, it all makes me so blasted _happy_ to be this way! But
>I wish I had discovered it much earlier; it _is_ a bit disconcerting to
>have one's life change so radically at 39...

Hey, at least you didn't wait three more years...like I did! Oh well,
better late than never. The incredible levels of happiness and joy make up
for missed time.

Rainshadow

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Feb 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/9/97
to


Roofus <cmoe...@indiana.edu> wrote in article
<32FC23...@indiana.edu>...

> ...."ROoo...ummmmmmmmmmm" It was kindof embarassing:) I certainly sign
all my

I would have Looooved to have been ther for that!! :)

> e-mails to friends who so much as know I'm furry as Roofus, and when I
cry I always
> whimper first and howl at the end...it somehow just feels right....I have
a
> pathetic howl, though. I've got to work on it:)

I used to have a pretty good howl, back when I was like 18 or so... I
haven't really tried to howl in along time, maybe I'll practise a little,
too..
--
-Rainshadow
(pank...@darwin.ucsc.edu)

"I'm a Stardog... that's right...."
-Andrew Wood, of Mother Love Bone
R.I.P.

Electro

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Feb 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/10/97
to

tjg...@southcom.com.au (Tim Gadd) wrote:

>I noticed that a lot of ALF regulars are in the flames over on
>alt.fan.furry.

I used to enjoy the occasinal flamewar, on one or two threads any
way. But when EVERY SINGLE THREAD SEEMS TO GO UP IN FLAMES, it's too
much like trying to live on a steady diet of chocolate bars. It
rapidly sickens.

>I'm wandering way off track. All I wanted to suggest was that instead
>of expending huge amounts of energy fighting a no-win fight on AFF,
>albeit a very just cause IMO, why not post some articles here, where
>they'll be welcomed. A lot of our people are away from home, and
>they're missed here. How about next time instead of responding to a
>flame, post something on ALF instead.

I'm hoping my attemts to start a positve based local furry group for
my state will recieve SOME kind of comment here. It does seem like a
more positive ground to build somthing on.



> I left AFF on new year's day to
>try to devote my time to ALF, and I haven't looked back.

I don't know, sometimes it's nice to have a place to go and rant,
when strangling your boss seems the only alternative. But I'm glad to
see that there is an attempt to make a good , positive place to escape
from it too.

>It's only a suggestion. I'm proud of anyone who wants to keep on
>defending the principles of this group on AFF, but I'd just love to
>see all that energy and passion going into making this place grow.

It's great to see that I'm not the only one bored with "NYAH!
NYAH!" I really hope this group stays positive. It's desperatly
needed.


ele...@minn.net
*********************************************************
Midnight at the huge hotel,my head is filled with fur....
"Nate Bucklin"


Owen Godfrey

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Feb 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/11/97
to

Roofus wrote:
>
> That first time was about a year and a half ago; since then his
> > presence has grown so strong that, in all important respects other than
> > physically, I've _become_ him. I think of myself as Tirran; I see him in
> > the mirror (a very odd experience, let me tell you); sometimes I even
> > feel as if I'm about to Shift, to take his form for real.
>
> I think of myself more as Roofus, too...I find my self signing papers as Roofus and
> even went so far as to actually forget my name when someone asked me.....I was like
> ...."ROoo...ummmmmmmmmmm" It was kindof embarassing:) I certainly sign all my
> e-mails to friends who so much as know I'm furry as Roofus, and when I cry I always
> whimper first and howl at the end...it somehow just feels right....I have a
> pathetic howl, though. I've got to work on it:)
>
> Roofus

Hi! I hang out on Furry Muck as Prrow. I saw your group, and thought
I'd lurk for a while. I'm 35, and I know a bit of your feelings.

Prrow is for me kittenish and playful online. In RL, he's there for
me when I am overwhealmed by the people around me. Having grown as
a very closetted man, he is my expression of anger, joy, and .. so
on. He is still me, but as an aspect, or just a representation of
new and powerful feelings that I've only just managed to release
in recent years. I feel like a cat .. Prrow .. and move like a cat,
because that is what it is like to let lose and be free. But when
I'm with someone I love, and hold them in my arms, its just me.

I know somone on Furry who sees himself very much as his cat self.
He barely functions in RL without leaning on that cat image. Sorry,
no names. I love him for his gentle nature and passionate soul, but
I worry because it can only come out to me, and only in Furry.

I do know and appreciate the depth of .. well, identity .. that comes
with Roofus, Prrow and the others, but .. well, is it .. does it
get in the way of life, or is it an expression of life?
--
The preceding represents my personal opinions,
and as such should not be confused with consensual reality.
Owen Godfrey, 1997

Rainshadow

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Feb 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/11/97
to


Owen Godfrey <god...@adied.oz.au> wrote in article
<330012...@adied.oz.au>...


> Roofus wrote:
> in recent years. I feel like a cat .. Prrow .. and move like a cat,
> because that is what it is like to let lose and be free. But when
> I'm with someone I love, and hold them in my arms, its just me.

I have a poem that I wrote back at the end of 1993 that relates to this
idea and some of the others being discussed here, I'm going to post it
shortly...



> I know somone on Furry who sees himself very much as his cat self.
> He barely functions in RL without leaning on that cat image. Sorry,
> no names. I love him for his gentle nature and passionate soul, but
> I worry because it can only come out to me, and only in Furry.
>
> I do know and appreciate the depth of .. well, identity .. that comes
> with Roofus, Prrow and the others, but .. well, is it .. does it
> get in the way of life, or is it an expression of life?

For me it does both get in the way and register as an expression of life...
and for me, when it "gets in the way" is often when I "look the cutest" to
myself from a perspective outside of myself, and in that situation, it too
becomes an expression of life.

Urthwyse

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Feb 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/12/97
to

On 11 Feb 1997, Rainshadow wrote:
> > I do know and appreciate the depth of .. well, identity .. that comes
> > with Roofus, Prrow and the others, but .. well, is it .. does it
> > get in the way of life, or is it an expression of life?
>
> For me it does both get in the way and register as an expression of life...
> and for me, when it "gets in the way" is often when I "look the cutest" to
> myself from a perspective outside of myself, and in that situation, it too
> becomes an expression of life.

I think a lot of it has to do with your current point in life.
Until recently, furrydom- and fantasy in general- got in the way of life.
If you spend a great deal of time in fantasy, you'll wind up hindering
yourself. A lot of furries will eventually grow beyond hard-core
furrydom, just like you eventually give up action figures or something
like that. It doesn't have to completely go away, though. (I currently
have 7 of the new Star Wars figures adorning my office space.)
Now I have a much more realistic perspective on life, but
anthropomorphics still comes into it sometimes. Now that I have much more
of a balance on it, it can facilitate things. I have a few animals that I
feel I personify at times. When trying to achieve something, I can put
myself in mind of the animal that will facilitate that objective. (I'll
try and put more on this in the "Come Home" thread.) Usually it happens
unconsciously.


Urthwyse

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Feb 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/12/97
to

On 3 Feb 1997, Brad Austin wrote:
> kimba wrote:
> > I am no master of the mystic or anything, but...I think I've had a
> > spiritual experience (and by that I mean I don't think I've grasped the
> > full profoundness of it yet). Like I've said in the past, a little over a
> > month ago this lion just suddenly grabbed me. I felt his form surrounding
> > mine. I could picture myself _as_ him, and it gave me new confidence in
> > dealing with other people. It was thrilling to envision taking on his
> > form...my heart stopped when, for one too-brief moment, I actually looked
> > at my feet and saw paws. The physical nature of this union is not always
> > as strong now--and how I miss it!--but I feel like the lion's spirit has
> > been united (re-united?) with mine.
> >
> > I started out thinking I was indulging in fantasy, but I don't think so
> > anymore. Has anybody ever felt this way?

Hopefully I can make a decent contribution to this thread. My
particular take on things is probably a little more practical than that of
many here, but I do have some belief in the unseen/forgotten world.
Anyway, I've had a similar experience to that above and to those
of Brad's, which I've related below. As for the one above, I don't
believe my experience was any great union, but it was a vision or
something- maybe just a feeling of connectivity with things.
I was in Montana at field camp and out hiking at night. It was a
full moon, and cloudy. The moon was bright enough that it actually
created moonbeams where it peeked through the clouds. I came upon a
clearing where one of these moonbeams was actually illuminating the area.
As I stepped into the light, I had.. a vision... feeling... I dunno, of
being a dragon high in the clouds. I could almost see myself in the
clearing below. I heard a voice. I've forgotten the exact wording, but
it said something like "between the light and the land it lies."
Now, I don't believe dragons ever physically existed, but I do
know that the dragon in many cultures is the personification of the raw
earth energies. I feel the experience was partly generated by outside
forces, but much of the imagery might have been my own subconscious
interpreting things in a way I could understand. I've always felt a
strong connection with nature (and, hence, animals), but it has always
been stronger since that experience. I also feel fortunate in that I
think the experience gave me the opportunity to experience the sensation
of unaided flight. This has also helped with the things I recound below.

> I haven't experienced that effect visually, but I frequently

> experience it kinesthetically. The first time it happened I was about
> 12 years old and I was riding in a car in rural Colorado somewhere
> between Golden and Boulder, near Rocky Flats. I happened to see a
> horse grazing, and suddenly my kinesthetic sense was no longer my own,
> but rather that of the horse. I think this may be somewhat similar to
> the "ghost limbs" frequently reported by amputees. I've felt it many
> more times since then with many different animal species, and in fact
> I find I can bring it on delibrately rather easily now, at least with
> mammals.

I can kind of do the same thing. It might just be a really good
imagination- one that's good enough to create sensations. (I can give
myself goosebumps by creating the sensation of scratching my nails on
terra cotta in my mind.) Anyway, I can rather easily generate the
sensation of another body. I've done it with wolves, bears, raptors
(eagles, falcons, hawks). I can also generate the sensation of what is
must be like to have antlers. I've never had the sensations leap up on
me- it's always been a conscious effort. I use it sometimes in...
meditation is the only word I can think of, though that's a little too
mystical-sounding for my tastes.
I'd have to say the ghost-limb analogy is a good one. I do pretty
much chalk it up to an active imagination, though I think it may also have
something to do with my connection to nature. I don't think this
connection is any special thing- just something man has forgotten. Sort
of like the nature equivalent of Jung's collective unconscious.

Tim Gadd

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Feb 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/12/97
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Urthwyse <ere...@comp.uark.edu> wrote:

>If you spend a great deal of time in fantasy, you'll wind up hindering
>yourself. A lot of furries will eventually grow beyond hard-core
>furrydom, just like you eventually give up action figures or something
>like that.

I think it's a mistake to imply that furriness is something which
people need to 'grow beyond', in the sense of giving up childish
things. In many cases furries do not grow _into_ their sense of
furriness until way, way passed adolescence. I know furries who didn't
really recognise that aspect of themeslves until they were around 50,
and the experience seems to have been a joyous, healthful one rather
than some kind of retreat from 'reality'. I certainly agree that we
need to pay at very least an adequate amount of attention to RL, but
there are innumerable ways to be furry depending on the individual in
question, and relatively few of them, IMO, appear to involve a denial
of reality. I would be more inclined to say that they involve an
acknowledgement of aspects of self which have been supressed, or not
apparent previously, and a willingness to explore those aspects. To
me the journey is towards intergration and self-discovery, not
isolation.

I thought I'd just add something about the perils of spending too much
time on the net ;) We are each part of a community isolated from one
another, in most cases, by vast distances. We have to spend a
reltaively large amount of time using this ephemeral medium to stay in
contact. I don't think most of us would choose to do it this way if
there were an option. If we all lived in the same street, I doubt I'd
find an excuse to sit here finding someone _else_ to conduct a
cyber-relationship with. I'm lucky in that I seem to be blessed with
friends who don't panic when I tell them about furriness. I was
explaining yesterday to a friend about totemism, theriomorphosis,
alter-egos and so on, and he was quite interested in it - but it was
an abject sort of interest; there was no _understanding_ of the sort
that we get here. That's only possible with other furries. For most of
us our communion is limited to this non-physical form. I don't see
that as negative, merely necessary. I have it as a vague long-term
goal to physically move somewhere where this kind of communication
becomes less necessary (probably have to get a green card though :()
We really ought to buy up a suburb somewhere and move into it, you
know ;)

BTW, perhaps the impression that furriness = fantasy is tied up with
the idea that everything furry revolves around the fandom, and
anthropomorphic characters. It ain't, and it doesn't.

Tim Gadd

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Feb 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/12/97
to

I wrote:

>We really ought to buy up a suburb somewhere and move into it, you
>know ;)

Come to think of it, let's avoid the suburbs if at all possible ;)

Roofus

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Feb 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/12/97
to

Owen Godfrey wrote:

> Prrow is for me kittenish and playful online. In RL, he's there for
> me when I am overwhealmed by the people around me. Having grown as
> a very closetted man, he is my expression of anger, joy, and .. so
> on. He is still me, but as an aspect, or just a representation of
> new and powerful feelings that I've only just managed to release

> in recent years. I feel like a cat .. Prrow .. and move like a cat,

> because that is what it is like to let lose and be free. But when


> I'm with someone I love, and hold them in my arms, its just me.
>

> I know somone on Furry who sees himself very much as his cat self.
> He barely functions in RL without leaning on that cat image. Sorry,
> no names. I love him for his gentle nature and passionate soul, but
> I worry because it can only come out to me, and only in Furry.
>

Its strange, but I don't even see myself as leaning on Roofus
anymore...Roofus has been completely intigrated into my RL, now too...and
feels no more comfortable than my other self did. I really always have
been Roofus...there's no separation, no death of some aspect of me, only
a discovery of a special part that, now that it is free, has completely
melded with my other self to form a far better individual (IMHO) Kindof
like a trill on Star Trek:)

Rainshadow

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Feb 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/13/97
to


Tim Gadd <tjg...@southcom.com.au> wrote in article <5dsa86$r...@rat.org>...

> that as negative, merely necessary. I have it as a vague long-term
> goal to physically move somewhere where this kind of communication
> becomes less necessary (probably have to get a green card though :()

> We really ought to buy up a suburb somewhere and move into it, you
> know ;)

Ooh! Ooh! *jumping frantically back and forth from paw to paw*
Where do I sign? Where do I sign!!?
--
-Rainshadow
(pank...@darwin.ucsc.edu)

Never get between a coyote and his Pringles.


Tim Gadd

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Feb 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/13/97
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Roofus <cmoe...@indiana.edu> wrote:

>Its strange, but I don't even see myself as leaning on Roofus
>anymore...Roofus has been completely intigrated into my RL, now too...and
>feels no more comfortable than my other self did. I really always have
>been Roofus...there's no separation, no death of some aspect of me, only
>a discovery of a special part that, now that it is free, has completely
>melded with my other self to form a far better individual (IMHO) Kindof
>like a trill on Star Trek:)

That's great to hear. The happiest furries I know are the ones who
embrace their identity rather than rejecting or supressing it. Of
course that identity may reveal itself piece by piece. I've been furry
for a long time, but in certain ways I'm only beginning to really
examine what my own individual brand of furiness _is._
I'm sure that the direction you're headed is positive and right for
you. No-one can say there won't be bumps on the way, but I'm sure the
trend is upwards :)

Rainshadow

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Feb 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/13/97
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Roofus <cmoe...@indiana.edu> wrote in article

<3302B7...@indiana.edu>...


> Owen Godfrey wrote:
>
> > Prrow is for me kittenish and playful online. In RL, he's there for
> > me when I am overwhealmed by the people around me. Having grown as
> > a very closetted man, he is my expression of anger, joy, and .. so
> > on. He is still me, but as an aspect, or just a representation of
> > new and powerful feelings that I've only just managed to release
> > in recent years. I feel like a cat .. Prrow .. and move like a cat,
> > because that is what it is like to let lose and be free. But when
> > I'm with someone I love, and hold them in my arms, its just me.
> >
> > I know somone on Furry who sees himself very much as his cat self.
> > He barely functions in RL without leaning on that cat image. Sorry,
> > no names. I love him for his gentle nature and passionate soul, but
> > I worry because it can only come out to me, and only in Furry.
> >
>

> Its strange, but I don't even see myself as leaning on Roofus
> anymore...Roofus has been completely intigrated into my RL, now too...and

> feels no more comfortable than my other self did. I really always have
> been Roofus...there's no separation, no death of some aspect of me, only
> a discovery of a special part that, now that it is free, has completely
> melded with my other self to form a far better individual (IMHO) Kindof
> like a trill on Star Trek:)

Yes, yes! This is EXACTLY what I wanted to say!! There is no separation in
my person... I am one being, a being that is both...mixed, but not totally
blended either, so that parts of me that are more distinctly "furry" and
"human" at times come to the fore...this is the kind of thing that does not
lend itself well to definition, and you need to be able to define something
to create a contradiction, so _there_is_no_contradiction_!! No
inconsistency to fret over!! YAAAY!

Eagle Dancer

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Feb 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/13/97
to

Tim Gadd wrote:

>
> I wrote:
>
> >We really ought to buy up a suburb somewhere and move into it, you
> >know ;)
>
> Come to think of it, let's avoid the suburbs if at all possible ;)


How 'bout here where I live....
1100 acres of Appaliacia in Ohio that has the possibilities for everyfur
to have it's own den SOMEWERE.

Mine is on the top of a ridge.
--
Eagle Dancer
If it moves, hug it. If it doesn't move, hug it until it does.

Kimba w l

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Feb 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/14/97
to

1100 acres? Wow! Guess it's only natural you'd be on top of a ridge.
How's the radio reception up there? ;)

Prismo

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Feb 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/14/97
to

Roofus wrote:

> Its strange, but I don't even see myself as leaning on Roofus
> anymore...Roofus has been completely intigrated into my RL, now too...and
> feels no more comfortable than my other self did. I really always have
> been Roofus...there's no separation, no death of some aspect of me, only
> a discovery of a special part that, now that it is free, has completely
> melded with my other self to form a far better individual (IMHO) Kindof
> like a trill on Star Trek:)

It's not so strange, Roofus. Myself, I never intended Prismo to be more
than just a muck character, but after I discovered that I was more than
I physically was - that I knew that there was more to me and my
personality than just this body - Prismo became a part of me, and I of
him. Why it was particularly a koala was a mystery (Until somefur told
me that according to the Australian Zodiac - Oziology - my birthday was
related to the koala. I didn't know this before Prismo came to mind.)
but I nevertheless did not just pluck him out of thin air - he was
always there, helping me to survive in a cold social wilderness. And he
still is, although its stronger and more self-confident now. I never
considered becoming a furry a loss of anything - I gained so much in
self-esteem, faith, companionship and love that I can never ever see
becoming a furry as anything less than a miracle.

THe only problem I have is my new addiction to Oreos, via Prismo.
Dammit, I'm trying to LOSE weight! :)

--
*^,^* Prismo Albee Decatur *@,@*
aka Dave Piccola
gol...@mailzone.com
http://www.olsusa.com/Users/Prismo/index.html

"When I die, I'm leaving my body to science fiction."
-Steven Wright

"Another plane crash? I hope they have a backup file somewhere."
-Prismo
___________
Furry Code 1.2
Copyright Ross Smith (al...@netlink.co.nz) 14-Jul-96

FMaOm3adm A+>++ C-/** D++ H++ M+ P R- T+++ W->+ Z Sm#
RLET*/S* a cm++ d++ e+++ f h* iwf++ p+++ sm#

Rainshadow

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Feb 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/15/97
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Prismo <pri...@olsusa.com> wrote in article <3304E2...@olsusa.com>...


> Roofus wrote:
> him. Why it was particularly a koala was a mystery (Until somefur told
> me that according to the Australian Zodiac - Oziology - my birthday was
> related to the koala. I didn't know this before Prismo came to mind.)

It also "just so happens" that, according to the zodiac of of the Native
American religious specialist Sun Bear (I forget what he calls it and
himself), I was born at the tail end of the quarter-year "ruled" by
Shawnodese...a coyote. Kinda neat, huh. And here I thought for all these
years I was just another stoopid Virgo.. :)

Ron Orr...& Tirran

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Feb 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/19/97
to

Eagle Dancer <eagle...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Tim Gadd wrote:
> >
> > I wrote:
> >
> > >We really ought to buy up a suburb somewhere and move into it, you
> > >know ;)
> >
> > Come to think of it, let's avoid the suburbs if at all possible ;)
>
> How 'bout here where I live....
> 1100 acres of Appaliacia in Ohio that has the possibilities for everyfur
> to have it's own den SOMEWERE.
>
> Mine is on the top of a ridge.

Got half-ownership of 100 acres of land-locked (water-only
access) forest in Northern Ontario; gotta get a few furrys up there some
time to confuse the heck outta the other owners...<g>

Tir'

Ron Orr...& Tirran

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Feb 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/19/97
to

Tim Gadd <tjg...@southcom.com.au> wrote:

> Part of the reason I've taken so long to reply to this is simply
> because I didn't know how to. What you've described does seem like a
> genuinely mystical experience - not that I'd really know, though :\
> It's unlike anything I've ever experienced, though it seems to
> _remind_ me of something someone else once described to me. I don't
> remember who it was. Tirran?

Sounds like me...;)
Yeah, that's just about exactly the way it was for me; a
relevatory experience that somewhere crosses into the mystical or
religious. You end up sitting around, grinning a lot, because the
thing's so damned wonderful when it happens...

> Most of all it just reminds me that there's more out there than we
> know about, which always re-assures me, for some reason.

Same here, actually. When IT happened to me, I was under the
impression that it was some thing kinda unique (and, because of my
innate rationalism, therefore suspect); but lately, there've been a lot
of posts from furrys who've undergone the same kind of experience, and
that really does assure me that what happened was really real.

> ... Whatever journey you're on, it sounds like
> a good one, and I'm a little jealous.

Tim, it's not something to get jealous over. Finding the key,
the trigger, however you see it, isn't impossible, and I doubt there's
any one particular way to do it. Indeed, I believe that it's something
you find by chance when the circumstances are right.
_Not_ very reassuring, I know...

Tir'

Ron Orr...& Tirran

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Feb 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/19/97
to

Owen Godfrey <god...@adied.oz.au> wondered:

> I do know and appreciate the depth of .. well, identity .. that comes
> with Roofus, Prrow and the others, but .. well, is it .. does it
> get in the way of life, or is it an expression of life?

It _can_ get in the way if you let it, but after a bit I've
found that it _enhanced_ my life. On one level Tirran is an expression,
a compilation of the best in me. I can use that to make my life better,
more interesting, and to improve the way I interact with others, furry
or not.
OTOH, my search for more knowledge about the changes in me has
gotten in the way of a few things. I expect it'll be a while before I
can settle down again...

Tir'

? the platypus {aka David Formosa}

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Feb 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/20/97
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"Rainshadow" <pank...@darwin.ucsc.edu> writes:

[...]

>I used to have a pretty good howl, back when I was like 18 or so... I
>haven't really tried to howl in along time, maybe I'll practise a little,
>too..

I live in a suburerbe where there is a good number of dog, mean of wich
know how to howl. Every so often a siren will set them off, and I'll
join them. Howling with dogs is fun, You let your voice carry and
listen to the outher dogs (or possably humans like you) replie.

Barbarian

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Feb 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/20/97
to

In article <dformosa....@lancelot.st.nepean.uws.edu.au>,

? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <dfor...@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> wrote:

>I live in a suburerbe where there is a good number of dog, mean of wich
>know how to howl. Every so often a siren will set them off, and I'll
>join them. Howling with dogs is fun, You let your voice carry and
>listen to the outher dogs (or possably humans like you) replie.

I have a proclivity to barking, myself. When I come home, I announce my
return to my mate by proclaiming a loud 'Woof!'. My barking runs the full
range of appropriate versions from what has become the tradional 'barking
at the returning family member' on over to low, muffled 'woof' barkings
when slightly disturbed or discontented.

I've even found myself barking when startled.

The odd thing is, my mate has come to understand the different inflections
in my bark such that she can correctly interperate my replies to various
questions when I'm not feeling particularly (human) vocal.

In conclussion, Woof!


Barbarian - Minister / For a true education in the meaning of
of Barbarism for the / the word "futile", try to educate a cat
Nation of Marvin. / in the meaning of the concept "not yours".
brba...@tezcat.com http://www.tezcat.com/~brbarian/index.html


Electro

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Feb 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/20/97
to

>>I live in a suburerbe where there is a good number of dog, mean of wich
>>know how to howl. Every so often a siren will set them off, and I'll
>>join them. Howling with dogs is fun, You let your voice carry and
>>listen to the outher dogs (or possably humans like you) replie.


My dog has to howl with me every day at least once or he gets
crabby. He gets up in my lap "all 65 pounds of him" puts his head next
to mine and howls loud enough to give ear aches.

Ricochet

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Feb 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/20/97
to

I woof in the strangest moments. A sigh is also a time I usually bark a
bit. Don't howl much, except for a full moon. (I'm not a wolf, but feel
close..and love the full moon for it's sheer beauty/feeling of freedom
in the wild) What I have been doing more of lately is Murrrrr! I guess
they're mostly "goofy" murrs. Uptone for happy ...question for
upset...ect. I actually heard a dog "murrr" finally in RL (when I
actually knew what that noise was)...so I know we can do it :) -Ric

Rainshadow

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Feb 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/20/97
to


Ron Orr...& Tirran <griz...@vianet.on.ca> wrote in article

<1997021922...@nor190.vianet.on.ca>...


> Eagle Dancer <eagle...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Mine is on the top of a ridge.
>
> Got half-ownership of 100 acres of land-locked (water-only
> access) forest in Northern Ontario; gotta get a few furrys up there some
> time to confuse the heck outta the other owners...<g>
>
> Tir'

I just gotta real cool picture of a pack o' fursuiters paddling canoes down
some foggy waterway in the early morning mists... hooo hah!

Rainshadow

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Feb 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/20/97
to


Ricochet <Bl...@glasscity.net> wrote in article
<330CAF...@glasscity.net>...

Yeah, now that y'furs mention it, I do a lot o' subvocalizing myself...
while i don't really notice it much myself, my ex-girlfriend used to
continuously tease me about my "little noises"... I make several which are
variants on a woof... more expelling of air than anything else... and they
often tell me more about the mood I'm in than my own thoughts do!!

Ron Orr...& Tirran

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Feb 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/21/97
to

Rainshadow <pank...@darwin.ucsc.edu> wrote:

> I just gotta real cool picture of a pack o' fursuiters paddling canoes down
> some foggy waterway in the early morning mists... hooo hah!

<The manticore bounces up and down in great happiness>
Share! Share! <g> Now why didn't I think of doing that? ("Cuz
canoeing is already hot, sweaty work; who needs the extra warmth?" says
my practical side...)

Tir'

Malcolm McMahon

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Feb 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/22/97
to

Also better be _damn_ sure you can swim in your suit.

---------------------------------+----------------------------------
I was born weird: This terrible | Like Pavlov's dogs we are trained
compulsion to behave normally is | to salivate at the sound of the
the result of childhood trauma. | liberty bell.
---------------------------------+----------------------------------
Malcolm

Ron Orr...& Tirran

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Feb 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/22/97
to

Malcolm McMahon <mal...@pigsty.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> On Fri, 21 Feb 1997 Tirran <griz...@vianet.on.ca> wrote:
>
> >Rainshadow <pank...@darwin.ucsc.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> I just gotta real cool picture of a pack o' fursuiters paddling canoes down
> >> some foggy waterway in the early morning mists... hooo hah!
> >
> > <The manticore bounces up and down in great happiness>
> > Share! Share! <g> Now why didn't I think of doing that? ("Cuz
> >canoeing is already hot, sweaty work; who needs the extra warmth?" says
> >my practical side...)
>
> Also better be _damn_ sure you can swim in your suit.

I already can; for CF7 I designed a half-length 'otter suit' for
swimming. Gets heavy after a bit, but not so much that I can't deal with
it for a few hours. It's pretty neat, and even has a nice tail, and when
it's wet it feels _exactly_ like a wet otter!
If anyone has access to the KARE-11 news segment on CF8, that's
me in the otter suit cannonballing into the pool.

Tir'

Kimba W. L.

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Feb 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/22/97
to

griz...@vianet.on.ca (Ron Orr...& Tirran) wrote:
>for CF7 I designed a half-length 'otter suit' for
>swimming. Gets heavy after a bit, but not so much that I can't deal with
>it for a few hours. It's pretty neat, and even has a nice tail, and when
>it's wet it feels _exactly_ like a wet otter!
>Tir'

That is too much! I would love to see it! :D

--
Kimba W. L.

Roofus

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Feb 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/22/97
to

Ricochet wrote:
>
> I woof in the strangest moments. A sigh is also a time I usually bark a
> bit. Don't howl much, except for a full moon. (I'm not a wolf, but feel
> close..and love the full moon for it's sheer beauty/feeling of freedom
> in the wild) What I have been doing more of lately is Murrrrr! I guess
> they're mostly "goofy" murrs. Uptone for happy ...question for
> upset...ect. I actually heard a dog "murrr" finally in RL (when I
> actually knew what that noise was)...so I know we can do it :) -Ric


That's good to know...I'll assume wolves can too:)...I've always felt
uncomfortable murring because I didn't know if I should be able to do it,
but now I'll be murring up a storm:)

Roofus

Roofus

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Feb 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/22/97
to

> If anyone has access to the KARE-11 news segment on CF8, that's
> me in the otter suit cannonballing into the pool.
>
> Tir'

DOes anyone have a tape of this? Like I said I've lived in Minnesota for
9 years and never before has KARE-11 ever done any stories on
furridom...I really wish they had cause I could have found out who I was
a lot sooner....well no sooner do I go off to Indiana for college than
boom...big segment devoted to furries. *sigh* why is life so cruel:(
I'd really like to see it, though....any Minnesota furs got a tape they'd
be willing to let me come by and copy? I'm quite sure my parents didn't
tape it.

I feel like fate is tormenting me. Right when I get a job
somewhere I bet there will be a big fur meet in Indianapolis or
something. Just my luck.

Roofus

Ron Orr...& Tirran

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Feb 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/23/97
to

Kimba W. L. <kim...@aol.com> wrote:

> griz...@vianet.on.ca (Ron Orr...& Tirran) wrote:

> >for CF7 I designed a half-length 'otter suit' for swimming...


>
> That is too much! I would love to see it! :D

Just hit any furry con with a swimming pool. <g>
Failing that, it can be seen most hot summer days in its native
environment, the Lions' beach on the Magnetawan River between Ahmic Lake
and Lake Cecebe, where it will be splashing clumsily about in the cool
water...

Tir'

Ron Orr...& Tirran

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Feb 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/23/97
to

Roofus <cmoe...@indiana.edu> wrote:

> > If anyone has access to the KARE-11 news segment on CF8, that's
> > me in the otter suit cannonballing into the pool.
> >
> > Tir'
>
> DOes anyone have a tape of this?

I know a furry who says he has a slightly fuzzy copy of it; I'll
pass this along in case he wants to make some copies and let y'all know
what he says.

> I feel like fate is tormenting me. Right when I get a job
> somewhere I bet there will be a big fur meet in Indianapolis or
> something.

I doubt either MFC or DucKon will be moving anytime soon, but
I'll suggest it to the con chairs if you like. Just let me know when you
_won't_ be there, OK? ;D

Tir'
using his influence for good, not evil (yeah, right)

Rainshadow

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Feb 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/24/97