Dear furs
David Cooke
I'm sorry about the state of the posts I made concerning the voting. They
were made from the depths of depression, caused partly by the less-than-
perfect nature of my life right now and partly as a side effect of my
medication (which I'm on for another month at least). My panic and fear
seemed very real at the time, but in hindsight looks rather silly, as
I guess you all thought.
Things are still far from wonderful, but I am feeling rather more rational
and I don't feel tempted to do any of the silly things that were going
though my head in the middle of the week.
There are still open issues for me, but I don't really want to go into
them now for fear of returning to that dark place.
Thanks again to those of you who tried to help me,
David.
[ Address munged: replace "indecent.SPAM" with "demon.co" to reply. ]
TM
returned from Conifur. As a fur who has never had the oppurtunity to
attend a confurence himself, I assumed he would had a wonderful time
full of long discussions, new furfriends, and of course furpiles. Well,
to my dismay he tell me he had a horible time b/c he was outcast from
hour one. He wasnt clothed in a fursuit or wore a shirt w/ some type of
furry symbol. As a result he was discriminated against and totally
alienated. He said many furs made horible remarks behind his back like
"I hate when humans try to crash our gatherings." This is really
distressing. We have enough animosity against us to have such
discrimination within out community. Please, just open your eyes. A
furry does not have to fit some mold. Just cause I choose to wear kakies
and a nice shirt or my mate desires to wear something nice to a
conferance doesnt make us any less of a fur. Im sorry for taking so much
of your time...just though it needed to be addressed.
Perro
XStallion
>to my dismay he tell me he had a horible time b/c he was outcast from
>hour one. He wasnt clothed in a fursuit or wore a shirt w/ some type of
>furry symbol. As a result he was discriminated against and totally
>alienated. He said many furs made horible remarks behind his back like
>"I hate when humans try to crash our gatherings." This is really
On the first Con I was, EuroFurence4, more then half of the furs there only
wear "normal" clothing, like shirts, T-shirts without furry prints and jeans,
and no one was slandered about that, and I can't think that any "real" fur
would ever do so.
So he maybe only had picked bad companionship, I hope that will not make you
back of from other Cons.
XStallion, wondering about that unfurry behavior
Super Jay
Con and it was lonely...there were 65 people there , thank god a few furs I
know stuck around me, but all in all no furs really came up to me and said
hi..I also got a few wierd looks as well. I guess con badges might have
helped..
-Super Jay
http://www.furnation.com/SuperJay/
Flicker
> Well, to my dismay he tell me he had a horible time b/c he was outcast
> from
> hour one. He wasnt clothed in a fursuit or wore a shirt w/ some type of
> furry symbol. As a result he was discriminated against and totally
> alienated.
These cliques of nasty stuck-up twits seem to be characteristic of
conventions of most stripe. I've tried going to some, but I got very little
out of them. The main point seems of these gatherings seems to be for
certain persons to look down their noses at the rest of the world,
generally. The art shows and dealer tables turned out to be the only
worthwhile things about the cons I went to. Sad, but true. I won't waste
my time going to any more.
-Flicker
Farlo
>TM wrote:
>
>> Well, to my dismay he tell me he had a horible time b/c he was outcast
>> from
>> hour one. He wasnt clothed in a fursuit or wore a shirt w/ some type of
>> furry symbol. As a result he was discriminated against and totally
>> alienated.
>
>These cliques of nasty stuck-up twits seem to be characteristic of
>conventions of most stripe.
This is not in keeping with our FAQ, so can we end this thread here?
-------------------
Farlo m>*_*<m
Urban Fey Dragon
-------------------
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Kimba W. Lion
>This is not in keeping with our FAQ, so can we end this thread here?
Well, I am curious about what led to such experiences. I am not
exactly a veteran con-goer, but both AACs seemed to me to be the
friendliest gatherings I could imagine. So I approach these stories
wondering what went wrong for these folks and how to avoid such
problems in the future.
Sorry, Flicker, I do think you got into overgeneralizing, and I'm
sorry you won't be at AC99. But the other two were talking about
specific incidents that don't match what most ALFers say about their
con experiences, so maybe we can help them avoid problems at their
next con?
Kimba
Airwolf
Kimba W. Lion <Kimba...@aol.com> wrote in article <35f3dc94...@news.fysh.org>...
> stan...@abac.com (Farlo) wrote:
>
> >This is not in keeping with our FAQ, so can we end this thread here?
>
> Well, I am curious about what led to such experiences. I am not
> exactly a veteran con-goer, but both AACs seemed to me to be the
> friendliest gatherings I could imagine. So I approach these stories
> wondering what went wrong for these folks and how to avoid such
> problems in the future.
I use to be one of the head staff at Confurence EAST and trish tried to keep unfurry behavior to a min. It is something that will enevitabley happen.
> Sorry, Flicker, I do think you got into overgeneralizing, and I'm
> sorry you won't be at AC99. But the other two were talking about
> specific incidents that don't match what most ALFers say about their
> con experiences, so maybe we can help them avoid problems at their
> next con?
> Kimba
Kimba you have a point their. When I hung around the ALFers, I had a great time. A rule of thum I have learned from others and my self is that NOT every furr will be friendly right away. Remember that when you take a fur in to the real world and away from his/her fur friends, they will think any one that dosen't LOOK like a fur is not because they are afrade of humans. (I know I am afrade of them a bit) But once you have gone to a few cons you will feel more at home and other furrs will know who you are and come up to you once and a while. But I have been toled that you have to mingle find/lissen in ( I know that it is rude to but it is how I learn) on other conversations and see if you like the sound of what they are talking aobut. Then add something if you can. But do it polightly.
This should help in sertan instances but it is only what I do and might be the WRONG thing to do. Remember I am still learning. I hope it helps.
Lucas
<Whaaaa! Sob sob, *snif*... *gulp*.> Oh no, my idealistic vision of life
is ruined! Hold on, get a grip, you've read enough NG posts to no longer
have such an "idealistic" view of things. <*blink blink* yeah, ok... I
guess this was just the last straw.>
<Lucas takes a few mental notes from this thread, sets aside an ideal or
two and moves on.> Don't worry though, I don't usually ever get rid of
anything permanently.
Hmm, saying a few things about furs being cautious of others if they are
not "dressed" right, hmm, that reminds me, I wonder when Felidae will have
enough interested furs to start calling those T-shirt orders in.
Rael
TM wrote in message <35F2E1...@davidson.edu>...
>I was distressed this weekend when I talked to my mate Sibe after he
>returned from Conifur. As a fur who has never had the oppurtunity to
>attend a confurence himself, I assumed he would had a wonderful time
>to my dismay he tell me he had a horible time b/c he was outcast from
>hour one. He wasnt clothed in a fursuit or wore a shirt w/ some type of
>furry symbol. As a result he was discriminated against and totally
>"I hate when humans try to crash our gatherings." This is really
>discrimination within out community. Please, just open your eyes. A
>furry does not have to fit some mold. Just cause I choose to wear kakies
>and a nice shirt or my mate desires to wear something nice to a
>conferance doesnt make us any less of a fur. Im sorry for taking so much
>of your time...just though it needed to be addressed.
>
>Perro
Well luv, I think your mate had just-cause to be upset after an experience
like that, but I don't think you may realize the reasons for it....
For starters, people are people...furry or otherwise. Some people are
friendly, other's aren't. The furs who stood there saying nasty things like
you described sound like they're terribly insecure. They'll put down
someone who doesn't "fit their mold"?? Well, what kind of people are they
for that?? A waste of time, IMO. Never overestimate anything to do with
Furry, for you'll find out there just as great a mix of snobs, jerks, and
generally unpleasant people here as anywhere else.
So, since you're going to get this _wherever_ you go, it comes down to
having to seek out friendlier people. I know they exist for a
fact...there's a gigantic amount of them here on this very NG....and they go
to cons too. I'm not sure if your mate simply went alone or not, but that
may be a big part of it too. Most people are shy in a "face-to-face"
situation. Lord knows I'm usually shy and quiet in VR...imagine what I'm
like in RL (like a statue :). Now, I'm not the only person like this, so
unfortunately maybe your mate would have had a better time if he went in
knowing he was going to meet a specific friend(s) there. This way, through
the people whom you are mutually comfortable with, you network, for lack of
a better term, and meet others. I know that if it wasn't for this very
thing happening with me at CF9, I would have most likely went there and
never met a soul....and had about the same rotten time as your mate did.
So, all I can say is that I think that _anyone_ who runs into this needs to
keep this in mind. Some people are jerks...plain and simple, and they
deserve to be ignored if they're going to conduct themselves in that manner.
They represent no-ones opinions but their own stupid ones. There's far more
good furs out there than this, believe me luv. It just takes a little while
to build up a group of friends sometimes....that's how life goes usually :)
Rael
Who's seen the same things herself in _every_ venue...and chooses to ignore
it, for they're not deserving of her's or anyone else's concern.
http://home.mci2000.com/~s...@mci2000.com/
"Look upon this life as just a picture you are painting, there is a reason
for this being"
---Jon Anderson (Yes) "That, That is"
Locandez
>I was distressed this weekend when I talked to my mate Sibe after he
>returned from Conifur. As a fur who has never had the oppurtunity to
>attend a confurence himself, I assumed he would had a wonderful time
>full of long discussions, new furfriends, and of course furpiles. Well,
>to my dismay he tell me he had a horible time b/c he was outcast from
>hour one. He wasnt clothed in a fursuit or wore a shirt w/ some type of
>furry symbol. As a result he was discriminated against and totally
>alienated. He said many furs made horible remarks behind his back like
>"I hate when humans try to crash our gatherings."
That's horrendous! *grump* That is so downright nasty, snide and snooty.
>Im sorry for taking so much of your time...just though it needed to be
>addressed.
It was a good point well made.
Locandez
--
-- Blank Furvey: http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/lyndale/furvey.txt
--
-- NOTE: The email address that I am posting from is fake!
-- My true email address is: lyndale [at] argonet.co.uk
"Behind every gifted woman, there's often a rather talented cat" - Rosie Nieper
WolfenRose
hmmm, ya, I don't understand why that would happen either? I dress goth or
skater(sometimes) doesn't make me any less furry ^,,^ always furry inside
HaCk (always furry)
http://members.aol.com/hackrwuif/index.htm
ICQ - 6518814
FurCode 1.3
FCW3admrw A++++ C- D? H M+ P+ R T+++ W- Z Sm?
RLA/LM/AT a? cduw++++ d e** f++++ h*** iwf+ j+ !p sm-
Chuck Melville
> I was distressed this weekend when I talked to my mate Sibe after he
> returned from Conifur. As a fur who has never had the oppurtunity to
> attend a confurence himself, I assumed he would had a wonderful time
> full of long discussions, new furfriends, and of course furpiles. Well,
> to my dismay he tell me he had a horible time b/c he was outcast from
> hour one. He wasnt clothed in a fursuit or wore a shirt w/ some type of
> furry symbol. As a result he was discriminated against and totally
> alienated. He said many furs made horible remarks behind his back like
> distressing. We have enough animosity against us to have such
> discrimination within out community. Please, just open your eyes. A
> furry does not have to fit some mold. Just cause I choose to wear kakies
> and a nice shirt or my mate desires to wear something nice to a
> of your time...just though it needed to be addressed.
>
>
Quite frankly, this is a huge surprise to me. I've only just returned
from Conifur a few hours ago, and this is the very first and, thus far,
-only- negative thing I have heard about the con throughout the entire
weekend. I heard no such comments, know of no one who made any even in
jest, and had no complaint of any such behavior. And as one of the Con
staff, I did quite a bit of walking around and observing during the four
days I was present.
If the account is true, and if the statement was meant seriously, it's a
remarkably hypocritical attitude by those who spoke it. Not every attendee
was dressed or marked with a furry symbol, other than the Con badge which
was required of all attendees; I know of several who wore plain, everyday
clothing, including several of the dealers. I wonder if the statement
wasn't meant ironically by some of the folks dressed for the costume event,
as a joke, and if it wasn't taken more seriously than intended.
I spoke and chatted with several folks duiring the con, as did our other
staffers, and the seemingly unanimous reaction we were given was that it
was not only a -great- con by their estimations, but that everybody was
eager to come and do it again next year!
I would like to hear more specifics on the incident, TM, so I can pass it
along to the Con Committee, for their information.
--
-Chuck Melville-
"We'd like to buy a cat. Preferably one with a history of mental illness."
Skytech
>
> On Sun, 06 Sep 1998 11:11:45 -0700, Flicker <fli...@desertlinc.com> wrote:
>
> > The main point seems of these gatherings seems to be for
> > certain persons to look down their noses at the rest of the world,
> > generally.
>
> think most people are this way though.
>
> > The art shows and dealer tables turned out to be the only
> > worthwhile things about the cons I went to. Sad, but true. I won't waste
> > my time going to any more.
>
> The dealer tables and masquerade were the only parts I got anything out of.
> People tended to be very rude, pushy and otherwise inconsiderate. I never
> really had the same problems at furry cons, but I know many who say that
> they have. What types of cons did you go to that turned out this bad? What
> other activities did you attempt to do besides the dealer's room and art
> shows? Did you go alone or with one or more friends? I know there is no
> excuse for anyone being made to feel left out at a con, but it helps to
> know where and when this is happening in order to figure out possible
> solutions.
>
So very true.
I don't think it's the cons in general as much as it's the attendees.
There are a few arrogant puissants who go solely to build themselves up
by putting others down. Many are like you, me, Flicker, etc., etc.;
lonely, overwhelmed, and unsure. Cons can quite be a meeting of faceless
strangers and that's often daunting. I know.
I haven't given up (completely) and hope to attend Philcon. There's
supposably a fair furry contingent and I plan to wear a Skytech T-shirt
both as ID and conversation piece. This is a prelude to Anthrocon 99. I
may yet build confidence and have some fun too!
--
La kashigada vulpo
Skytech
^^
<@@>
./
Flicker
> Sorry, Flicker, I do think you got into overgeneralizing...
If it had been a single incident, or a single place or time, I would be
inclined to agree with you. However, this was not the case. I gave it
several chances.
> But the other two were talking about
> specific incidents that don't match what most ALFers say about their
> con experiences, so maybe we can help them avoid problems at their
> next con?
I would bet a large amount of money againt it. From what I have
observed, the whole purpose of these conventions is contrary to whatever
reason I might have for attending them.
I don't hold anything against anyone who enjoys going to these things.
But I will absolutely never do so again, and I wouldn't particularly
recommend it to anyone who had never done.
-Flicker
Flicker
> This is not in keeping with our FAQ, so can we end this thread here?
You're right, that was gratuitously venemous.
True... but gratuitous. I shall endeavor to contain my anger.
-Flicker
Ron Orr... & Tirran
> Dear furs,
>
> I'm sorry about the state of the posts I made concerning the voting. They
> were made from the depths of depression, caused partly by the less-than-
> perfect nature of my life right now and partly as a side effect of my
> medication (which I'm on for another month at least).
Thought it might be something like that...
> ... My panic and fear seemed very real at the time, but in hindsight
> looks rather silly, as I guess you all thought.
No, not silly... I think we guessed _something_ was going on,
something that was to be taken seriously.
> There are still open issues for me, but I don't really want to go into
> them now for fear of returning to that dark place.
If you want to deal with them, fine; if you want to wait...
well, I'd trust my instincts, and give it time.
And if it helps, I know what it feels like to be left out when
I'm already feeling down. I don't want to go back there either...
Tir'
Felidae
>
> Hmm, saying a few things about furs being cautious of others if they are
>not "dressed" right, hmm, that reminds me, I wonder when Felidae will have
>enough interested furs to start calling those T-shirt orders in.
I will be e-mailing every fur who I have orders from some time before
wednesday night to confirm the orders and get the checks out. It will
take a while to get the shirts out though as I have to wait until I
have half the money in my hands before I can place the order. It will
take a few 3 weeks to be printed and 3 days in the mail.
-Felidae
ICQ# 10651107
ELynne
On Sun, 6 Sep 1998, TM wrote:
> I was distressed this weekend when I talked to my mate Sibe after he
> returned from Conifur. As a fur who has never had the oppurtunity to
<snip>
> to my dismay he tell me he had a horible time b/c he was outcast from
> hour one. He wasnt clothed in a fursuit or wore a shirt w/ some type of
> furry symbol. As a result he was discriminated against and totally
> alienated. He said many furs made horible remarks behind his back like
> "I hate when humans try to crash our gatherings." This is really
<blinking> I was dressed in a t-shirt and jeans for most of the con,
myself. Admittedly, most of the time my t-shirt had a dragon in it (go
figure), but there were certainly a *lot* of people there who were wearing
basically the same kind of clothing I was without even pictures of
animals, and I didn't see any kind of discrimination/harassment or
anything. I wish I had known that Sibe so that I could have kept an eye
out for him...
> distressing. We have enough animosity against us to have such
> discrimination within out community. Please, just open your eyes. A
> furry does not have to fit some mold. Just cause I choose to wear kakies
> and a nice shirt or my mate desires to wear something nice to a
> conferance doesnt make us any less of a fur. Im sorry for taking so much
> of your time...just though it needed to be addressed.
> Perro
Hi Perro... if you stuck around to read the replies, could you let me know
what it was that Sibe was wearing, so I'd have a chance of remembering if
I saw him or not? I doubt that he'd have seen me unless he was looking.
>:=8) Incidentally, I was there with a friend of mine from AFD who was
wearing even less furry-themed clothing than I was (she looked like she
might have wandered in off the street--not like a street person, duh!),
and she seemed to have a good time too.
I'll post up a full con report from my perspective... later...
The currently sigless,
-- Jia Maebashi
(who learned during Conifur that she has a new name--Elynne!!)
TM
know
> what it was that Sibe was wearing, so I'd have a chance of remembering if
> I saw him or not? I doubt that he'd have seen me unless he was looking.
> >:=8) Incidentally, I was there with a friend of mine from AFD who was
> wearing even less furry-themed clothing than I was (she looked like she
> might have wandered in off the street--not like a street person, duh!),
> and she seemed to have a good time too.
>
> I'll post up a full con report from my perspective... later...
>
> The currently sigless,
> -- Jia Maebashi
> (who learned during Conifur that she has a new name--Elynne!!)
Well, since im sort of a just a messager....Im trying to get my mate
himself to reply to posts. Unfortunately hes been having server
problems....so once he gets all fixed up Sibe will most definately
answer all questions. Im sorry if i sturred up some bad vibes...but Im
glad to see such a huge debate sparked as a result. Maybe a few furs
will realize how pety such feeling are. Well once again thanks for the
replies and hope i didnt cause too much trouble
Perro :)
Aetobatus
>
>Well, I am curious about what led to such experiences. I am not
>exactly a veteran con-goer, but both AACs seemed to me to be the
>friendliest gatherings I could imagine. So I approach these stories
>wondering what went wrong for these folks and how to avoid such
>problems in the future.
I'd concur; AAC98 was my second ever con, and I didn't feel as I was
ever excluded. Of course, perhaps there is something of a difference
from person to person; I tend not to LET myself be excluded if I don't
want to be...
Aeto, integrated
--
Aetobatus, Kelekona a'a o' O'ahu, Hawai'i. http://www.lava.net/~aetobat/
Keeper of Alfandria, THE social Dragon MUCK.
http://www.chameleon.net/alfandria/
telnet://alfandria.chameleon.net:8888
[The E-mail address is munged. Remove the spamtrap, but leave the number]
Tony Greyfox
>> furry symbol. As a result he was discriminated against and totally
>> alienated.
>from Conifur a few hours ago, and this is the very first and, thus far,
>-only- negative thing I have heard about the con throughout the entire
>weekend. I heard no such comments, know of no one who made any even in
>jest, and had no complaint of any such behavior.
Agreed; I was only at Conifur myself for half of Saturday and left
Sunday, was wearing standard street clothes (and a choke chain, but
that was under my shirt mostly and hard to pick out, so I dunno if it
made a difference), and heard nothing like that myself. I chatted with
a couple of furs, bantered with a couple of dealers and artists, got
to a few panels and events, and generally enjoyed the heck out of
myself - and didn't see or hear anything resembling discrimination.
(Granted, for Sunday, I was wearing my Guardian Knights shirt, and I
_was_ there with an SO (who was wearing a Sabrina Online shirt one day
and wolves the next, and had no problems with anyone either), but I
don't think that would make that much of a difference.)
I sincerely hope that what Perro's mate heard and experienced was an
isolated incident. Everything else about Conifur was so good...
> I spoke and chatted with several folks duiring the con, as did our other
>staffers, and the seemingly unanimous reaction we were given was that it
>was not only a -great- con by their estimations, but that everybody was
>eager to come and do it again next year!
Side note: this was probably the best organized and run convention
I've been to, and I've been concom before, so I do sort of know what
I'm talking about. interesting panels, good special events, and a real
friendly, laid back feel to the whole thing that made me, a first-time
furry congoer, feel right at home. Nice job to all that worked on it.
I'll be back next year,
-- Tony, who was a little disappointed nobody came up, read his badge,
and said, 'I've read your stories!' But hey, his ego's already got
size problems. =-)
That lost in the boonies reporter/editor guy
http://www.FurNation.com/TonyFox/
tgre...@SPAMFREE.uniserve.com, tgre...@SPAMFREEvcn.bc.ca
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Please remove the CAPITALS from my address before replying.
Allen Kitchen
Flicker <fli...@desertlinc.com> wrote in article
<35F42398...@desertlinc.com>...
> Kimba W. Lion wrote:
>
> > Sorry, Flicker, I do think you got into overgeneralizing...
>
> I would bet a large amount of money againt it. From what I have
> observed, the whole purpose of these conventions is contrary to whatever
> reason I might have for attending them.
Flicker:
Try going to a con with some people you know. That, or meeting some
people there. It's a lot more fun if you don't feel completely out of the
loop when surrounded by people you don't know.
I've only been to 2 cons: CF9 and MFM98 (Hey everyone, I'm back
safe and sound) I had a blast at both cons. I fell into a happy cub
mode, and socialized as much as I wanted to. I met new furs, talked
about drawings and stories, and bought furry things and images to grace
my den.
There were a few people hiding in chairs off by themselves. They
looked angry, so I didn't go over and pounce them. Perhaps I should
have... I hope you weren't one of those people Flicker.
Cons are exactly what you want them to be. If you go expecting to
have a lousy time, you will. (Just ask my wife... long story) But if
you try to get unshy and meet some people (try asking a group that
is going out to dinner if you can tag along) you'll find lots of furs that
are quite outgoing and funloving.
I'm sorry you had such a bad experience at your con Flicker. I find
them to be a delight. At MFM, we had an ALF gettogether and
scotch-tasting meeting that went over like gangbusters! And don't
get me started on what happened when we got together for dinner...
Put me, Plonq, Mirko, and Duncan all together, and you are
guaranteeing mass chaos!
Wanna hear my "Battle between Equals" story? :)
Allen Kitchen (shockwave)
Flicker
> Try going to a con with some people you know. That, or meeting some
> people there. It's a lot more fun if you don't feel completely out of the
> loop when surrounded by people you don't know.
An interesting idea, but impossible for me.
> There were a few people hiding in chairs off by themselves. They
> looked angry, so I didn't go over and pounce them. Perhaps I should
> have... I hope you weren't one of those people Flicker.
Not at either of those Cons. I showed up at these things relatively
optimistic... but over time my mood deteriorates, and I wouldn't be surprised
to find myself leaning in a corner looking angry at one point or another.
This would generally be shortly before I left.
> Cons are exactly what you want them to be. If you go expecting to
> have a lousy time, you will. (Just ask my wife... long story) But if
> you try to get unshy and meet some people (try asking a group that
> is going out to dinner if you can tag along) you'll find lots of furs that
> are quite outgoing and funloving.
Harrumph. I've heard similar sentiments from many quarters... frankly, in
light of my past experiences they sound pretty hypocritcal. And if I sound
bitter about it... I AM! The whole business left me more bitterly
disillusioned and depressed than it had any right to. I'm not sure whence my
strong reaction springs, but it would be no exaggeration to say that I would
sooner choke on my own entrails than go to another Con.
If you had fun, more power to you. I can probably even muster enough
bigness of heart not to resent it very much :) But you would be hard-pressed
to convince of any redeeming value these gatherings might have, at least as
far as _I_ am concerned... I speak from my own experience.
-Flicker
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
> I was distressed this weekend when I talked to my mate Sibe after
> he returned from Conifur. As a fur who has never had the oppurtunity
> was outcast from hour one. He wasnt clothed in a fursuit or wore a shirt
Would it be considered flaming to say that this statement sounds like
something a member of this group might say? Slamming "Hyoomans" doesn't seem
to be a trait of Furry Fans. (We just flame people individually. :-)
> This is really distressing. We have enough animosity against us to have
> such discrimination within our community.
Aside from the hypocracy of claiming to be all-accepting and then pulling crap
like this, you must realize that this is reality. No minority group is free
of it, be it black-on-black violence or the hatred most asian nationalitites
have for other asian nationalities. But the first step to conquering a
problem is admiting that it exists.
> Please, just open your eyes.
> A furry does not have to fit some mold. Just cause I choose to wear
> kakies and a nice shirt or my mate desires to wear something nice to
> a conferance doesnt make us any less of a fur. Im sorry for taking so
> much of your time...just though it needed to be addressed.
I hope, honestly, that the jerk who uttered this remark reads this and feels
like a worm. Outreach and good PR is vital for both the Fandom and the
Lifestyle camps. Cliquishness may be attractive when those of us who may be
social outcasts bind together, but it really turns us into those we detest. I
think it would be a step in the right direction to find out who this
individual is and let him know (gently) that this is not the way things are
done.
Personally, I didn't witness or overhear any remarks like this, although that
may be because I was mostly located in the art show rooms.
--
"I don't believe in Guns."
"I Do! I've actually seen one!"
"Yeah, I hear that the Government has secret warehouses where they keep them."
--
"Yeah, I've got ADD, you wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!"
--
Spammer Warning: Washington State Law now provides civil penalties for UCE.
Kimba W. Lion
>Would it be considered flaming to say that this statement sounds like
>something a member of this group might say? Slamming "Hyoomans" doesn't seem
>to be a trait of Furry Fans. (We just flame people individually. :-)
If you would read all the responses in this thread, you would see
most folks do not hold that attitude and are trying to figure out why
this person had such an unusually bad experience. I would consider it
basically you looking for support for your pre-conceived notions.
>Aside from the hypocracy of claiming to be all-accepting and then pulling crap
>like this, you must realize that this is reality. No minority group is free
>of it, be it black-on-black violence or the hatred most asian nationalitites
>have for other asian nationalities. But the first step to conquering a
>problem is admiting that it exists.
The first step in conquering a problem is to get a realistic picture
of it. That means _not_ jumping on one incident and trying to blow it
out of proportion.
>Personally, I didn't witness or overhear any remarks like this
So why are you so eager to jump on it? Again, if you would look at
the _entire_ picture, most folks are saying the same thing.
>I hope, honestly, that the jerk who uttered this remark reads this and feels
>like a worm.
Feelings of revenge only make things worse. Yeah, I wish he would
read it and realize his mistake and make an apology. Making amends
does a whole lot of good and makes revenge and punishment
unnecessary.
>Outreach and good PR is vital for both the Fandom and the
>Lifestyle camps. Cliquishness may be attractive when those of us who may be
>social outcasts bind together, but it really turns us into those we detest. I
>think it would be a step in the right direction to find out who this
>individual is and let him know (gently) that this is not the way things are
>done.
Basically no disagreement from me, except I would watch the "social
outcast" label. Accepting that label creates a self-perpetuating
cycle. Basically, the members of this group are good-hearted folk
looking for ways to reach out to others. That's no reason to feel
like an outcast, but it does create vulnerability that in turn can
lead to feeling like an outcast.
Kimba
Artax
> Would it be considered flaming to say that this statement sounds like
> something a member of this group might say?
No, it wouldn't. Derogatory generalizations don't really count as
either value judgements or personal attacks, so they're not explicitly
off-topic.
However you are making a mistake of terminology. ALF doesn't have
"members". ALF is a newsgroup, not a club nor a group of people. ALF
has subscribers, posters, readers, and even denizens, but not "members".
> Slamming "Hyoomans" doesn't seem
> to be a trait of Furry Fans. (We just flame people individually. :-)
ALF denizens and members of the furry fan clique aren't the only
people who attend furry cons, so your implication that if it wasn't
a furry fan it must have been someone who reads ALF is false. A
large percentage of furry con attendees are non-Usenet-reading
FurryMUCKers, many of whom treat furry cons as RL gatherings of
MUCK characters. As a personal example, at CF8 someone asked me
who my MUCK character was, and I said I didn't have one and had
never been on a MUCK, and he incredulously asked "Then what are you
doing here?". After being treated to a remark like that, if I
overheard the remark about "humans crashing our gatherings" my
first assumption would be that he's referring to people without
MUCK characters or not acting in-character at the con.
> Aside from the hypocracy of claiming to be all-accepting and then pulling
crap
> like this,
You don't know who made the remark, nor what the context was or if
it was serious or meant to be a joke or what, so you certainly don't
know whether that person either "claims to be all-accepting", or
whether he's a hypocrite or not.
I also don't recall ever in my life meeting anyone who "claimed to
be all-accepting", so I think it's highly unlikely that any given
unknown person would do so.
> Outreach and good PR is vital for both the Fandom and the
> Lifestyle camps.
Cliques that call themselves fandoms and have members and outcasts
need PR. Newsgroups that have subscribers, posters, readers, and
denizens, and that exist for diverse people to come together and
discuss shared interests and things they have in common without any
framework of affiliation do not need PR. In fact, misguided
concerns for PR is what turns the latter into the former.
> I
> think it would be a step in the right direction to find out who this
> individual is and let him know (gently) that this is not the way things
are
> done.
Cliques that call themselves fandoms tell their members the way
things are done. Newsgroup denizens do not tell other newsgroup
denizens the way things are done, except for telling them the way
things are done on the newsgroup itself if that newsgroup has
specific posting guidelines.
a res. | Artax
r p c | (Brad Austin)
t x o |
ax@i m | Oceanside, CA USA
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
writes:
> I would consider
> it basically you looking for support for your pre-conceived notions.
Nah, It was just me making a snide comment. You need to relax a bit.
> So why are you so eager to jump on it? Again, if you would look at
> the _entire_ picture, most folks are saying the same thing.
How about if I say that I said it just to poke you? :-)
> >I hope, honestly, that the jerk who uttered this remark reads this
> >and feels like a worm.
>
> Feelings of revenge only make things worse. Yeah, I wish he would read
> it and realize his mistake and make an apology. Making amends does a
> whole lot of good and makes revenge and punishment unnecessary.
There's a difference between wishing for revenge and hoping someone feels
remorse. I was hoping the person who said it feels remorse. If I'd wanted
revenge, I'd be demanding to know who it is and saying that I was plotting all
kinds of rotten stuff for him, as revenge for being both a rotten furry and a
rotten human being. I don't see your wish as being any different than mine,
except for the wording, and that you wish him to act on it.
> >Outreach and good PR is vital for both the Fandom and the Lifestyle
> >camps. Cliquishness may be attractive when those of us who may be
> >social outcasts bind together, but it really turns us into those
> >we detest. I think it would be a step in the right direction to find
> >out who this individual is and let him know (gently) that this is not
> >the way things are done.
>
> Basically no disagreement from me, except I would watch the
> "social outcast" label. Accepting that label creates a
> self-perpetuating cycle. Basically, the members of this group
> are good-hearted folk looking for ways to reach out to others. That's
> no reason to feel like an outcast, but it does create vulnerability
> that in turn can lead to feeling like an outcast.
Well, I think it's safe to consider but fans and lifestylers as far enough off
the mundane path to be at least a tad alienated.
On the other hand, one should be proud of being an individual. It's just a
harder path to take.
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
writes:
> However you are making a mistake of terminology. ALF doesn't
> have "members". ALF is a newsgroup, not a club nor a group of
> people. ALF has subscribers, posters, readers, and even denizens, but
> not "members".
All groups have members, it's the most general term. it's like being "A
Member of the General Public". You don't pay any dues or anything, you just
are. In the New Math all sets have Members. That's how I used this term.
> > Slamming "Hyoomans" doesn't seem
> > to be a trait of Furry Fans. (We just flame people individually. :-)
>
> ALF denizens and members of the furry fan clique aren't the only
> people who attend furry cons, so your implication that if it wasn't
> a furry fan it must have been someone who reads ALF is false. A
> large percentage of furry con attendees are
> non-Usenet-reading FurryMUCKers, many of whom treat furry cons as
> RL gatherings of MUCK characters. As a personal example, at CF8
> someone asked me who my MUCK character was, and I said I didn't have
> one and had never been on a MUCK, and he incredulously asked "Then
> what are you doing here?". After being treated to a remark like that,
> if I overheard the remark about "humans crashing our gatherings" my
> first assumption would be that he's referring to people without
> MUCK characters or not acting in-character at the con.
Interestingly, someone else pointed to the policy of free CF3 memberships to
FurryMuckers as the start of a downward trend in the quality of the gathering.
I'm curious about what your answer to the fellow was.
> > I think it would be a step in the right direction to find out who
> > this individual is and let him know (gently) that this is not the
> > way things are done.
>
> Cliques that call themselves fandoms tell their members the way things
> are done. Newsgroup denizens do not tell other newsgroup denizens the
> way things are done, except for telling them the way things are done
> on the newsgroup itself if that newsgroup has specific posting
> guidelines.
So, do you think a boorish and insensitive individual should not be told that
his actions are boorish and insensitive, and he should be allowed to continue
to hurt the feelings of people like our frind at the convention unimpeded?
Or if you were there, would you say "Hey, that's an awfully mean thing to
say." or something along those lines?
By the way, I find your terming furry fandom a "clique' to be demeaning and
inaccurate. Cliques are small groups of elitists. c.f. the movie Heathers.
Furry Fandom is WAY too large to be a clique. But it does HAVE cliques in it.
unavoidable in any large group.
Cerulean
WA Resident) wrote:
>By the way, I find your terming furry fandom a "clique' to be demeaning and
>inaccurate. Cliques are small groups of elitists. c.f. the movie Heathers.
>Furry Fandom is WAY too large to be a clique. But it does HAVE cliques in it.
>unavoidable in any large group.
Furry fandom (defined as the set of all fans of furry things) has a
clique in it that calls itself "The Furry Fandom" and spends a lot of
its time deciding which people "don't belong in the fandom."
This is what Artax means by "Cliques that call themselves fandoms."
It's impossible to convince the clique that they are not the whole of
the fandom, and so a lot of people have given up and stopped trying to
use the word "fandom" in its proper meaning.
--
___vvz /( Cerulean http://home.att.net/~kevinpease
<__,` Z / ( DC.D/? fs+h++ Gm CB^P a$m++d+++l*g-e!i
`~~~) )Z) ( FDDmp4adwsA+++$C*D>+HM-P-RT+++WZ?Sm#
/ (7 ( ,,'unj 6u!^ey +ou uey+ unj aJow s,+I iunj 3^eH,,
Artax
Richard Chandler wrote:
> In article <01bddc0e$7af98e30$13364bd1@home>, "Artax" <bo...@address.com>
> writes:
> > However you are making a mistake of terminology. ALF doesn't
> > have "members". ALF is a newsgroup, not a club nor a group of
> > people. ALF has subscribers, posters, readers, and even denizens, but
> > not "members".
>
> All groups have members, it's the most general term. it's like being "A
> Member of the General Public". You don't pay any dues or anything, you
just
> are. In the New Math all sets have Members. That's how I used this
term.
When you said "this group" I took it to mean this newsgroup, because I
can't think what other group you could have been referring to. A newsgroup
is a group of messages, not a group of people.
> > As a personal example, at CF8
> > someone asked me who my MUCK character was, and I said I didn't have
> > one and had never been on a MUCK, and he incredulously asked "Then
> > what are you doing here?". After being treated to a remark like that,
> > if I overheard the remark about "humans crashing our gatherings" my
> > first assumption would be that he's referring to people without
> > MUCK characters or not acting in-character at the con.
>
> I'm curious about what your answer to the fellow was.
I didn't dignify it with an answer.
> > > I think it would be a step in the right direction to find out who
> > > this individual is and let him know (gently) that this is not the
> > > way things are done.
> >
> > Cliques that call themselves fandoms tell their members the way things
> > are done. Newsgroup denizens do not tell other newsgroup denizens the
> > way things are done, except for telling them the way things are done
> > on the newsgroup itself if that newsgroup has specific posting
> > guidelines.
>
> So, do you think a boorish and insensitive individual should not be told
that
> his actions are boorish and insensitive, and he should be allowed to
continue
> to hurt the feelings of people like our frind at the convention
unimpeded?
Told by whom, and on behalf of whom?
> Or if you were there, would you say "Hey, that's an awfully mean thing to
> say." or something along those lines?
Whatever I would say, I would say it myself on behalf of myself. I
wouldn't
go to some newsgroup afterward looking for a group of people to join me in
making a collective statement.
> By the way, I find your terming furry fandom a "clique' to be demeaning
and
> inaccurate. Cliques are small groups of elitists. c.f. the movie
Heathers.
> Furry Fandom is WAY too large to be a clique.
Size has nothing to do with it. All it takes is the notion that
people are either in or out of the group, and that people who are
in the group are beholden to maintain the group's public image.
There are much larger cliques than furry fandom.
Kimba W. Lion
>In article <35f684a...@news.fysh.org>, Kimba...@aol.com (Kimba W. Lion)
>writes:
>> I would consider
>> it basically you looking for support for your pre-conceived notions.
>
>Nah, It was just me making a snide comment. You need to relax a bit.
[snip]
>How about if I say that I said it just to poke you? :-)
I would say I think I understand why you say you see so many
insincere people everywhere. I will continue to assume people are
sincere until they prove otherwise. I think I'll make fewer mistakes
that way.
Kimba
Robert Four-eyes Parish, a gentleman werewolf
I have been to cons and felt left out before too, so I can sympathize.
It's hard to know what happened. I know that I have seen guys at cons
walking nervously around like they are terrified about being there. I
saw one guy at MFM who I have seen posting on ALF, who seemed to
desperately want someone to talk to him. But when I tried to talk to
him he looked at the floor and mumbled incomprehensively. It can be
hard for some folks at conventions because they feel overwhelmed by
all of those people there that they do not know.
As far as not wearing furry clothes or whatever... well, if he wore
what he thought he felt comfortable in, and others didn't like that,
then shame on them! I used to wear certain things because I felt it
was expected of me, but after CF9 I sold my wolf tail, and decided to
no longer wear a con badge with a furry caracture of me as a wolf on
it. I still cherish that badge (by Frank Gembeck, jr.). And I don't
criticize others for wearing tails, badges, or costumes. I find I am
more comfortable without wearing such things, so that's what I do.
You are VERY right... no one should have to fit a mold. At furry
conventions there are mundanes wondering around... at Memphis MFM2
there were people from a family reunion gawking at us and saying snide
things like "It must be someone's coming-out party.". It could be
that your friend came across as an outsider in an environment where
mundanes had already rubbed some furfolk the wrong way. I don't
know... I wasn't there at Conifur.
Rudeness is rude, pure and simple. Mundanes are rude when they invade
our turf and make fun of us. Furries can be rude when they "squick"
the mundanes by acting immature and or sexually promiscuous. Your
friend may have been accidentally victimized by an "us versus them"
mentality on the part of some furries. I think a plea for everyone in
the furry fandom who attends conventions to be a little less extreme
in public places would not be out of order.
--Four-eyes, a gentleman werewolf and spiritual shifter
i i i i
Home Page (on the Fur Pride Webring):
http://www.aye.net/~rdp/foureyes/
"Transcending Role Play: Therianthropy & Animal Totems" (on the Furry Lifestyle Webring)
http://www.aye.net/~rdp/foureyes/totem/
"What is a shaman?
He dreams like all men do
But he remembers"
Aetobatus
>TM, I don't know the full story behind your mate's bad con experience.
>I have been to cons and felt left out before too, so I can sympathize.
>It's hard to know what happened. I know that I have seen guys at cons
>walking nervously around like they are terrified about being there. I
>saw one guy at MFM who I have seen posting on ALF, who seemed to
>desperately want someone to talk to him. But when I tried to talk to
>him he looked at the floor and mumbled incomprehensively. It can be
>hard for some folks at conventions because they feel overwhelmed by
>all of those people there that they do not know.
*nod* We had a few of those at the AAC evening Lifestyle discussion;
I think we managed to get them talking a bit, though, after pushing a
bit. :> Of course, the people most likely not to want to talk
probably weren't there to begin with. I certainly can understand that
the cons aren't for everyone (and I can see that there are certain
"negatives" about the events which would cause some people trouble).
I guess, to a good extent, it comes down to how you do in a crowd.
Personally, crowds don't bother me, and in fact, I'll freely admit
that I *love* being the center of attention in a crowd. If that
wasn't the case, I can certainly see the cons being different.
>As far as not wearing furry clothes or whatever... well, if he wore
>what he thought he felt comfortable in, and others didn't like that,
>then shame on them! I used to wear certain things because I felt it
>was expected of me, but after CF9 I sold my wolf tail, and decided to
>no longer wear a con badge with a furry caracture of me as a wolf on
If I may ask, was there something that told you it was wrong for you
to wear them, or just not right. OK, I suppose that sounds odd to
ask, but I suppose what I am really asking is whether it is something
you specifically feel like you shouldn't do, or if it is just a case
of seeing no reason to do so. (Note that in all of the above, I
realize it is a personal decision, rather than a judgement of others
who wear furry items.)
>it. I still cherish that badge (by Frank Gembeck, jr.). And I don't
>criticize others for wearing tails, badges, or costumes. I find I am
>more comfortable without wearing such things, so that's what I do.
>
>You are VERY right... no one should have to fit a mold. At furry
>conventions there are mundanes wondering around... at Memphis MFM2
>there were people from a family reunion gawking at us and saying snide
>things like "It must be someone's coming-out party.". It could be
>that your friend came across as an outsider in an environment where
>mundanes had already rubbed some furfolk the wrong way. I don't
>know... I wasn't there at Conifur.
Actually, worth asking is whether he wore a badge *at all*. The
badges, though they often give a place for some gratutious art, ARE
largely there to identify con-goers from people just wandering
through. That being said, I still don't think you should hold it
against someone that they are wandering through; for almost all of us,
there was a time before we knew about furry. (Note, 4-eyes, I'm not
really talking to you as much as the group in general, and even at
that, am probably saying what they already know. :> )
>Rudeness is rude, pure and simple. Mundanes are rude when they invade
>our turf and make fun of us. Furries can be rude when they "squick"
>the mundanes by acting immature and or sexually promiscuous. Your
Yeah! I still remember Tirran's "Hey! I squicked Aeto" comment in
the evening spirituality meeting, as I was laughing too hard under my
breath to say anything! :>
>friend may have been accidentally victimized by an "us versus them"
>mentality on the part of some furries. I think a plea for everyone in
>the furry fandom who attends conventions to be a little less extreme
>in public places would not be out of order.
Hear hear...
Aeto, squicked and all.
Robert Four-eyes Parish, a gentleman werewolf
>*nod* We had a few of those at the AAC evening Lifestyle discussion;
>I think we managed to get them talking a bit, though, after pushing a
>bit. :> Of course, the people most likely not to want to talk
>probably weren't there to begin with. I certainly can understand that
>the cons aren't for everyone (and I can see that there are certain
>"negatives" about the events which would cause some people trouble).
>I guess, to a good extent, it comes down to how you do in a crowd.
>Personally, crowds don't bother me, and in fact, I'll freely admit
>that I *love* being the center of attention in a crowd. If that
>wasn't the case, I can certainly see the cons being different.
I'm pretty much shaped by my military experience, I guess. I am very
much goal directed, and I look at things and judge them based on
whether they achieve what they intended to achieve or not. It's a
character flaw that leaves me rubbed the wrong way by some who thrive
on spontaneity and flux. It's a lupine sort of trait... you know how
we wolves are about social hierarchies and working together to achieve
common goals! Remmember that the alpha wolf isn't a tyrant... he
subordinates himself to the common good perhaps even more than others
in the pack. While they are playing in the meadows, he is spending
his every waking moment attending to the future survival of the pack
and the integrity of it's territory. It is not an easy life.
I show up at cons taking them literally and at face value as ways to
make new friends, and to share information and ideas. I'm one of those
guys who walk around with the program in my back pocket and who's
digital watch beeps at them to remind them to attend a certain SIG at
a certain time! And I tend to get upset when others focus on what I
see as ancilliary aspects of a con, such as sex. But I am getting
better in dealing with that. My getting upset is my problem and no
one elses.
Basically, I don't like to be in the middle of everyone's attention.
I only do so when I feel I have to do so, because the discomfort of
publicity is less then the discomfort of inertia. That's why I
started the howling at M MFM2, for example.
I think that part of the strength of any group is a diversity of
differing personalities and ideas. If we were all the same there
would be no synergy, no sense that the whole is more than the mere sum
of it's parts. When people with differing strengths and weaknesses
work together you end up with a group with few weaknesses and many
strengths. Viva la difference! This is why I feel that the furry
world needs more women, for example.
>>As far as not wearing furry clothes or whatever... well, if he wore
>>what he thought he felt comfortable in, and others didn't like that,
>>then shame on them! I used to wear certain things because I felt it
>>was expected of me, but after CF9 I sold my wolf tail, and decided to
>>no longer wear a con badge with a furry caracture of me as a wolf on
>If I may ask, was there something that told you it was wrong for you
>to wear them, or just not right. OK, I suppose that sounds odd to
>ask, but I suppose what I am really asking is whether it is something
>you specifically feel like you shouldn't do, or if it is just a case
>of seeing no reason to do so. (Note that in all of the above, I
>realize it is a personal decision, rather than a judgement of others
>who wear furry items.)
There are a number of intertwined reasons why I decided to no longer
wear such things. Part of it is I am no longer uncomfortable with my
being somewhat of an outsider to furry events, so I just don't see the
need. Besides furries, I also associate with animal folk from
alt.horror.werewolves and naturalism/environmentalism movements. (I am
a member of the Sierra Club, a member of Wolf Park, and training as a
docent at the Louisville Zoo.) I don't really consider myself to be a
part of the furry fandom per se, I just share a lot of mutual
interests with some furries. My main focus is on real animals and on
what I call animal spirituality. There are others in the fandom I
share fewer interests with, and I respect that they have their own
agendas to follow.
Wearing a tail or a furry caracture for me was a way of declaring
affiliation with the furry fandom at large. (Keep in mind I have been
attending furry cons since CFE2.) But by not doing that, I feel more
at ease around some furries at cons who used to really upset me by
thier behavior, because I no longer feel guilty by association. I'm
not going to rehash some of the things that happened to me at CF9 that
upset me so very, very much. You can look up my old posts on Deja
News if you wish. I'm more interested in the future than the past.
MFM was wonderful for me in part because it reaffirmed my belief that
I had managed to leave the furry fandom without burning any bridges
behind me.
Also, I wear other things that are more oppropriate for my
philosophical approach to "furryness". I have a wolf's head pewter
necklace that I always wear even at work. It's something that I use
to focus my thinking on especially when things are going bad for me in
life. When I feel distressed by fear, sorrow, or whatever, I
sometimes reach up and touch it, or when things are going really badly
I hide somewhere for a few minutes, hold in in my right paw and
meditate on the strengths and passion of what it means to me to be a
wolf. At furry cons I wear it outside of my shirt, and I think that
that is more an appropriate icon for who I am at heart than a con
badge. There is a lot of blood, sweat and tears vested in that
necklace, as well as a lot of love, passion and joy.
As they say, your milaege may vary! Speaking of totemic fetishes, I
would like to take the opportunity here to thank a certain panterra
fur (you know who you are!) for your gift to me of the wolf paw stone
from his medicine bag during the animal spirituality SIG. I started
to have a panic attack from the noise and chaos at the "Ten Fur-Scent"
supper sunday evening, and holding the wolf paw stone in my own paw
was a big help. Because of your kindness I made it through supper and
actually was able to enjoy my meal in solitude, despite the noisy
crowd. You said something told you to buy it, and something told you
to give it to me. That something kept me from running out of the
Dixie Café that evening, and I really appreciate that.
>Actually, worth asking is whether he wore a badge *at all*. The
>badges, though they often give a place for some gratutious art, ARE
>largely there to identify con-goers from people just wandering
>through. That being said, I still don't think you should hold it
>against someone that they are wandering through; for almost all of us,
>there was a time before we knew about furry. (Note, 4-eyes, I'm not
>really talking to you as much as the group in general, and even at
>that, am probably saying what they already know. :> )
Once again, I can't answer for anyone else. I wore my M MFM2 badge,
with a pride rainbow flag with Mel Skunk's furry pride paw-print
triangle in the middle of it. No furry caracture of me, no furry art.
I did wear animal related t-shirts: a shirt with a werewolf under a
full moon, a Wolf Park shirt, an Exotic Feline Breeding Center shirt,
a Louisville Zoo lobo guará (maned wolf) shirt. I wear these shirts
and others like them in everyday life though. Not wearing fandom
specific items at cons to me re-enforces my sense of psychological
continuity between being at a con and not being at a con. I think
that that is one reason that I am no longer devestated with post-con
depression like I used to be. For example... when I am done writing
this post I shall be firing off an email to Ricochet and Kodian
inviting them to go hiking with me this afternoon, and whether they go
or not I shall be walking out my front door dressed pretty much like I
was a week ago at Memphis MFM2 (except for the name badge).
I suspect the gay pride stuff on my badge is why some I tried to talk
were nervous and looked at the floor. That's sad, but It's better to
know that up front. It's not like I was hitting them up for sex. Sex
isn't incompatible with being at a convention, but it's not what it's
about to me.
>>Rudeness is rude, pure and simple. Mundanes are rude when they invade
>>our turf and make fun of us. Furries can be rude when they "squick"
>>the mundanes by acting immature and or sexually promiscuous. Your
>Yeah! I still remember Tirran's "Hey! I squicked Aeto" comment in
>the evening spirituality meeting, as I was laughing too hard under my
>breath to say anything! :>
/me LOL!
Certain such games are harmless fun, and one of the great parts of
being at a con. The only thing I love more than flirting with guys
discretely is being flirted with! I still get warm fuzzies all over
thinking about that wonderful jacuzzi party sunday at the hotel! So
many handsome and scantily clad men in such close proximity! But as
soon as someone starts to be genuinely uncomfortable (including
bystanders) it's insensitive to not stop. Specifically I think it's
in poor taste to do things to squick people outside of the hotel who
CAN'T leave, such as people at their jobs. I have been accussed of
homophobia by some furs, but I think that public displays of affection
by hetero couples are just as insensitive! I remember it was when I
was so lonely I fely constantly on the verge of tears; how I felt when
I saw another guy happily groping a girl.
>>I think a plea for everyone in
>>the furry fandom who attends conventions to be a little less extreme
>>in public places would not be out of order.
>Hear hear...
Just like "friends don't let friends drive drunk", we need to have an
attitude at cons where friends discretely intervene to keep friends
from making jack-asses of themselves in public! <chuckles!> Funny...
once again an animal metaphor works the best to make a point....
Aetobatus
>
[...]
>
>I show up at cons taking them literally and at face value as ways to
>make new friends, and to share information and ideas. I'm one of those
>guys who walk around with the program in my back pocket and who's
>digital watch beeps at them to remind them to attend a certain SIG at
I was kind of like that at CF9, though that was likely due to it being
my first con where I used the SIGS to get to meet people and see just
what was going on. I think now I am starting to look at the cons more
in the sense of being there to interact on a more personal level with
folks, though.
>a certain time! And I tend to get upset when others focus on what I
>see as ancilliary aspects of a con, such as sex. But I am getting
>better in dealing with that. My getting upset is my problem and no
>one elses.
I'll agree that some things, like the sexual aspects, get to me a bit,
but that's really more because I think those aspects, as they are
probably going to more and more shape the media's view of the furry
community.
>Basically, I don't like to be in the middle of everyone's attention.
>I only do so when I feel I have to do so, because the discomfort of
>publicity is less then the discomfort of inertia. That's why I
>started the howling at M MFM2, for example.
>
>I think that part of the strength of any group is a diversity of
>differing personalities and ideas. If we were all the same there
>would be no synergy, no sense that the whole is more than the mere sum
>of it's parts. When people with differing strengths and weaknesses
>work together you end up with a group with few weaknesses and many
>strengths. Viva la difference! This is why I feel that the furry
>world needs more women, for example.
*nod* Normally I would have cut the above out, if all I had to do was
say "I agree," but I think it is worth repeating. Especially within
this group, we are very diverse, and I think it is important that we
remember that that's one of our biggest strengths.
[ Re furry clothing ]
>There are a number of intertwined reasons why I decided to no longer
>wear such things. Part of it is I am no longer uncomfortable with my
>being somewhat of an outsider to furry events, so I just don't see the
>need. Besides furries, I also associate with animal folk from
>alt.horror.werewolves and naturalism/environmentalism movements. (I am
>a member of the Sierra Club, a member of Wolf Park, and training as a
>docent at the Louisville Zoo.) I don't really consider myself to be a
>part of the furry fandom per se, I just share a lot of mutual
>interests with some furries. My main focus is on real animals and on
>what I call animal spirituality. There are others in the fandom I
>share fewer interests with, and I respect that they have their own
>agendas to follow.
*nod* I think there is a bit of a growing group who feel that way,
though few of those people are participating in the furry community at
the present. For myself, as well, I am finding that I am getting
increasingly disgruntled at the fandom and some of the folks involved.
>Wearing a tail or a furry caracture for me was a way of declaring
>affiliation with the furry fandom at large. (Keep in mind I have been
>attending furry cons since CFE2.) But by not doing that, I feel more
>at ease around some furries at cons who used to really upset me by
>thier behavior, because I no longer feel guilty by association. I'm
>not going to rehash some of the things that happened to me at CF9 that
>upset me so very, very much. You can look up my old posts on Deja
CF9 was my first con, and I suspect I can guess at some of the
things. I kept looking around, a bit in mental shock, thinking "My
god, this is REALLY happening!" On one hand, it was a bit of a shock
which to this day sits in the back of my mind, causing me to ask
myself "Is this really right?" but on the other, I probably got the
shock factor out of the way at the start, which is IMHO a Good Thing.
>News if you wish. I'm more interested in the future than the past.
>MFM was wonderful for me in part because it reaffirmed my belief that
>I had managed to leave the furry fandom without burning any bridges
>behind me.
*nod* I guess I should count myself lucky that I never really was
part of the fandom. :>
>Also, I wear other things that are more oppropriate for my
>philosophical approach to "furryness". I have a wolf's head pewter
>necklace that I always wear even at work. It's something that I use
>to focus my thinking on especially when things are going bad for me in
*nod* I think I understand, and that's a bit what I was curious
about, mainly just to satisfy my own interests. (I tend to like to
hoard information, even if it doesn't have much application. :> )
>life. When I feel distressed by fear, sorrow, or whatever, I
>sometimes reach up and touch it, or when things are going really badly
>I hide somewhere for a few minutes, hold in in my right paw and
>meditate on the strengths and passion of what it means to me to be a
>wolf. At furry cons I wear it outside of my shirt, and I think that
>that is more an appropriate icon for who I am at heart than a con
>badge. There is a lot of blood, sweat and tears vested in that
>necklace, as well as a lot of love, passion and joy.
*nod* Actually, when at events like that, I tend to notice the small
necklaces, buttons, etc... more than t-shirts (and, in truth, more
than full costumes, as odd as it seems that someone in a full wolf
suit would draw my attention less than a single pendant). I think, as
a rule, those sorts of things have more meaning in the long run.
(Though, seeing as I wear T-shirts every day to work, for me wearing
that sort of clothing is fully natural, and as often as not, the
shirts I wear to work are animal-based, so it is a small stretch to
wear more furry stuff.)
[...]
>>Actually, worth asking is whether he wore a badge *at all*. The
>>badges, though they often give a place for some gratutious art, ARE
>>largely there to identify con-goers from people just wandering
>>through. That being said, I still don't think you should hold it
>>against someone that they are wandering through; for almost all of us,
>>there was a time before we knew about furry. (Note, 4-eyes, I'm not
>>really talking to you as much as the group in general, and even at
>>that, am probably saying what they already know. :> )
>
>Once again, I can't answer for anyone else. I wore my M MFM2 badge,
>with a pride rainbow flag with Mel Skunk's furry pride paw-print
>triangle in the middle of it. No furry caracture of me, no furry art.
>I did wear animal related t-shirts: a shirt with a werewolf under a
>full moon, a Wolf Park shirt, an Exotic Feline Breeding Center shirt,
>a Louisville Zoo lobo guará (maned wolf) shirt. I wear these shirts
>and others like them in everyday life though. Not wearing fandom
>specific items at cons to me re-enforces my sense of psychological
>continuity between being at a con and not being at a con. I think
*nod* That's pretty close to how I feel. I tend to wear dragon stuff
at the cons, though at AAC I had a few t-shirts people made for me I
had to wear (and admit I wasn't at all upset to wear them; the designs
were pretty neat). I had (of course) the "Furry Forever" pins (which
are intended to show support for the Lifestylers rathet than the fans)
and the button I traded a pin for, with the word "Mundanes" crossed
out (a VERY intentional double-meaning when I saw it, seeing how much
I dislike the term "mundanes" :> ), and later the pin Kimba gave me.
I think wearing such symbols can be a Good Thing, if you select which
ones to wear with some care. :>
[...]
>I suspect the gay pride stuff on my badge is why some I tried to talk
>were nervous and looked at the floor. That's sad, but It's better to
>know that up front. It's not like I was hitting them up for sex. Sex
>isn't incompatible with being at a convention, but it's not what it's
>about to me.
*nod* When I was at AAC, I noticed someone wearing the zeta pin, and
asked them what it meant. It was obvious they were concerned about
how I would react to finding out. There does seem to be a history of
people being taken aback by folks who are differently oriented, and
that may well be part of the problem.
>>Yeah! I still remember Tirran's "Hey! I squicked Aeto" comment in
>>the evening spirituality meeting, as I was laughing too hard under my
>>breath to say anything! :>
>
>/me LOL!
>
>Certain such games are harmless fun, and one of the great parts of
>being at a con. The only thing I love more than flirting with guys
>discretely is being flirted with! I still get warm fuzzies all over
*grin* I was one of those weird folks who actually had the little
"straight" button on, and was REALLY close to accidentally getting a
fur pride one also (not knowing what it meant). In hindsight, I
should have; my understanding is that that symbol really indicates
support of different orientations rather that actually having one, and
I certainly consider myself open and supporting others.
Now I just find myself wishing I could remember what Tirran said in
that meeting which left me unable to speak for a good 30 or 45
seconds. :>
Aeto, speachless???
Plonq
>get me started on what happened when we got together for dinner...
>Put me, Plonq, Mirko, and Duncan all together, and you are
>guaranteeing mass chaos!
Put a few drinks into Plonq and you get some REAL chaos happening. I was on
my best behavior at this con... :)
* Plonq
Duncan da Husky
Hmm....This could be fun...
-Duncan da Husky, who couldn't possibly be wearing an evil grin right now
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Brady tab...@mindspring.com http://www.technomancer.com/~duncan
Furry: Duncan da Husky SCA: Duncan MacKinnon of Tobermory
"There is more to life than the avoidance of death." - Paul Asente
Locandez
Parish, a gentleman werewolf) wrote:
>Certain such games are harmless fun, and one of the great parts of
>being at a con. The only thing I love more than flirting with guys
>discretely is being flirted with! I still get warm fuzzies all over
>thinking about that wonderful jacuzzi party sunday at the hotel! So
>many handsome and scantily clad men in such close proximity! But as
>soon as someone starts to be genuinely uncomfortable (including
>bystanders) it's insensitive to not stop. Specifically I think it's
>in poor taste to do things to squick people outside of the hotel who
>CAN'T leave, such as people at their jobs. I have been accussed of
>homophobia by some furs,
Don't you mean 'in-your-face homosexuality'?
>but I think that public displays of affection by hetero couples are just
>as insensitive!
I'm not sure about insensitive, but there does appear to be a degree of
hypocrisy regarding the fact that whilst two men holding hands might be seen
as some as 'in your face', all manner of heterosexual imagery in pop musics,
adverts, soaps and other pop culture items is not. *shrug*
Locandez
--
-- Blank Furvey: http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/lyndale/furvey.txt
--
-- NOTE: The email address that I am posting from is fake!
-- My true email address is: lyndale [at] argonet.co.uk
"...or you could project porn onto the wall, and the burglar would just stand there slack-jawed until the police arrive."
Allen Kitchen
Locandez wrote in message ...
> I'm not sure about insensitive, but there does appear to be a degree of
>hypocrisy regarding the fact that whilst two men holding hands might be
seen
>as some as 'in your face', all manner of heterosexual imagery in pop
musics,
>adverts, soaps and other pop culture items is not. *shrug*
>
Well, guys holding hands doesn't bug me. Neither does two guys
giving each other quick pecks (that's common in South America
and Europe.) I do get uncomfortable when two men tongue-wrestle,
but I likewise get bothered by hetero couples engaged in such
activity (hey, get a room!) There's a place and time for everything.
I don't know what's shown on soaps and music videos these days...
If not for the 6 times a year video rental and the weather, I'd have
no use for my TV.
Allen Kitchen (shockwave)
Sidhain
>
>I don't know what's shown on soaps and music videos these days...
>If not for the 6 times a year video rental and the weather, I'd have
>no use for my TV.
>
>Allen Kitchen (shockwave)
>
>
Only use for TV! big paperweight...*L* I watch two shows a week and read or
surf the net when not at school...So beleive me the TV is nto my friend
either.
Farlo
>I don't know what's shown on soaps and music videos these days...
>If not for the 6 times a year video rental and the weather, I'd have
>no use for my TV.
I am very nearsighted and leave my glasses on the tv when I go to bed
- the large size and shape of the TV make it easy to locate my
spectacles in the morning.
-------------------
Farlo m>*_*<m
Urban Fey Dragon
-------------------
*Never* send e-mail to these addresses:
postmaster@localhost
postmaster@[127.0.0.1]
abuse@localhost
abuse@[127.0.0.1]
Michael-San
Sidhain wrote:
> >
> >I don't know what's shown on soaps and music videos these days...
> >If not for the 6 times a year video rental and the weather, I'd have
> >no use for my TV.
I frequently use my TV...as a monitor for my playstation!
GothTiger (tig...@execpc.com)
((Is patiently waiting for TAIL CONCERTO to make it's way to the US...))
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
pdg...@argonet.co.uk> writes:
> I'm not sure about insensitive, but there does appear to be a degree
> of hypocrisy regarding the fact that whilst two men holding hands might
> be seen as some as 'in your face', all manner of heterosexual imagery
> in pop musics, adverts, soaps and other pop culture items is not. *
> shrug*
Not to be confrontational, but do you recall the two young men at CF8 who
waited near the lobby door for family-types coming to the hotel (obviously
visiting Knott's Berry Farm) at which point they would launch into a deep
tongue-kissing session?
To me, that qualifies as "in your face". And yes, I do think it would be just
as offensive for a het couple to do, but these two get extra points for
deliberate shock tactics. I don't think a het couple could get the same sort
of shock reaction.
D. Jean Cooper
>
> >
> >I don't know what's shown on soaps and music videos these days...
> >If not for the 6 times a year video rental and the weather, I'd have
> >no use for my TV.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Only use for TV! big paperweight...*L* I watch two shows a week and read or
> surf the net when not at school...So beleive me the TV is nto my friend
> either.
Tttthhhhppppppptthh! I don't even *own* a TV, let alone a VCR. What few
shows I watch, I go downstairs and watch my dad's set. He and I usually
have much the same tastes in shows. Public Broadcast, Discovery, Animal
Planet, History, some Nat'l Geographic shows.
Now, anime, on the other paw.... <VBG> My friend, Ed, has me hooked real
bad. I go over to his place and we watch what he gets in on his delivery
from his comic shop back in Illinois. Or what we order in. And if I were
to own a TV, I'd be watching B5 virtually on a religious basis.
*Chuckle* This weekend, he and I go to the next town south of here and
endulge ourselves in an anime convention. They started here last year and
had a pretty good turn-out. Next month, about the same timeframe, we go
back down and hit the local SF/F con. Charles de Lint is GOH this year.
I'm getting his 'Moonhart' book signed. (If *I* have anything to say in the
matter, that is... <G>) -Walk in Balance
Ambergold Wolfeyes (starting to bounce off the walls, waiting for Fri.)
SCA: Lady Aelfreda O'Llyn Ewig
--
D.Jean Cooper
dcooperatinavdotnet
Allen Kitchen
D. Jean Cooper wrote in message <35FF672C...@inav.net>...
>
>Now, anime, on the other paw.... <VBG> My friend, Ed, has me hooked real
>bad. I go over to his place and we watch what he gets in on his delivery
>from his comic shop back in Illinois. Or what we order in. And if I were
>to own a TV, I'd be watching B5 virtually on a religious basis.
You'd need cable around here. TNT isn't broadcast,
and you have to pay the ridiculous sums to the cable
cabal to watch it.
As for anime, well, I was hooked on it for awhile myself.
In Austin, they had an anime club that gathered once a
month to watch the latest stuff out of japan. It was a blast!
But I don't live there anymore, so I haven't seen any anime
in ages.
>*Chuckle* This weekend, he and I go to the next town south of here and
>endulge ourselves in an anime convention. They started here last year and
>had a pretty good turn-out. Next month, about the same timeframe, we go
>back down and hit the local SF/F con. Charles de Lint is GOH this year.
>I'm getting his 'Moonhart' book signed. (If *I* have anything to say in the
>matter, that is... <G>) -Walk in Balance
Sounds like a real fun time milady Ambergold :) Wish Houston
had a con worth attending. Any kind of con! Odd, considering
we have Rice University and NASA, that the con scene here is
so poor. But you go and have a wonderful time sweety. Let me
know if you hear about a new Mercedes Lackey book (serrated
edge series prefered :)
*hug*
Allen Kitchen (shockwave)
http://www.blkbox.com/~osprey/
MegaDog the Nettweiler
<sid...@earthlink.net> writes
>Only use for TV! big paperweight...*L* I watch two shows a week and read or
>surf the net when not at school...So beleive me the TV is nto my friend
>either.
Must admit, i'm only a TV-watcher when there is something
special on (usually involving wolves or other cute canines...)
Though having recently been re-introduced to MST3K, the
underlying temptation to subscribe to cable is growing... :+)
--
!Raised Tails! -:MegaDog:-
http://www.canismajor.demon.co.uk/index.html
"There are times when a man needs the touch of a llama" -Crow T. Robot
Kit an Amaideach Sionnach
(Aetobatus) wrote:
>I was kind of like that at CF9, though that was likely due to it being
>my first con where I used the SIGS to get to meet people and see just
>what was going on. I think now I am starting to look at the cons more
>in the sense of being there to interact on a more personal level with
>folks, though.
*nod* .. *G* .. both are ways, though. My first furcon, I was staff,
and worked a *large* amount of sigs ... Quite intresting, to view it
that way. :)
After all, SIGs stimulate discussion ... no? At least, as a sig-host,
that's what *I* used a sig for.
*low chuckle* ... For instance... "So .. I've always wondered.. How is
it like being a prey animal? I've never been one, and ... etc" .. *G*
(to the rabbit sig, of course) ...
>I'll agree that some things, like the sexual aspects, get to me a bit,
>but that's really more because I think those aspects, as they are
>probably going to more and more shape the media's view of the furry
>community.
*nods* .. bothers me a *teensy* bit, at least... the open necking and
stuff. ;) Of course, I'm prolly hypocritical. *G* ...
>*nod* Normally I would have cut the above out, if all I had to do was
>say "I agree," but I think it is worth repeating. Especially within
>this group, we are very diverse, and I think it is important that we
>remember that that's one of our biggest strengths.
Quite. And it is, as long as you remember to ACCEPT other people's
opinions, and consider them, no matter if they are disagreeable or
not.
>*nod* I think there is a bit of a growing group who feel that way,
>though few of those people are participating in the furry community at
>the present. For myself, as well, I am finding that I am getting
>increasingly disgruntled at the fandom and some of the folks involved.
*grin* .. Take what you like, don't worry about the rest. Unless it
intrudes, of course. Then, take appropiate measures.
>CF9 was my first con, and I suspect I can guess at some of the
>things. I kept looking around, a bit in mental shock, thinking "My
>god, this is REALLY happening!" On one hand, it was a bit of a shock
>which to this day sits in the back of my mind, causing me to ask
>myself "Is this really right?" but on the other, I probably got the
>shock factor out of the way at the start, which is IMHO a Good Thing.
Mm.. is it good or bad not to have ever been shocked?
>*nod* I guess I should count myself lucky that I never really was
>part of the fandom. :>
*pictures the Aetodwaggie as a drooling fandragon* .. *shakes head in
puzzlement* .. Nah. :)
>*nod* I think I understand, and that's a bit what I was curious
>about, mainly just to satisfy my own interests. (I tend to like to
>hoard information, even if it doesn't have much application. :> )
*lol* .. Join the club. :) And as a note... *g* .. there's a pendant I
wear .. with a chinese dragon on one side ... and the serpent eating
it's own tail (celtic) in another... :) Mmm.. kinda sorta similar to a
certain 'furry forever' emblem, perhaps? ;) although, idependently
arrived at.
>*nod* Actually, when at events like that, I tend to notice the small
>necklaces, buttons, etc... more than t-shirts (and, in truth, more
>than full costumes, as odd as it seems that someone in a full wolf
>suit would draw my attention less than a single pendant). I think, as
>a rule, those sorts of things have more meaning in the long run.
>(Though, seeing as I wear T-shirts every day to work, for me wearing
>that sort of clothing is fully natural, and as often as not, the
>shirts I wear to work are animal-based, so it is a small stretch to
>wear more furry stuff.)
Mmm. 'full costume' .. You mean, everything you wear *ISN'T* a
costume? Whether it be buttoned shirt, starched collars, and a trench,
or ... t-shirt and shorts? :)
Mmm.. single items also have meaning, though, of a diffent nature..
they're sort of 'emphasis' points, you choose to wear, and you realize
when you see them, that their choice was deliberate, unless,
*perhaps*, the clothing.
>*grin* I was one of those weird folks who actually had the little
>"straight" button on, and was REALLY close to accidentally getting a
>fur pride one also (not knowing what it meant). In hindsight, I
>should have; my understanding is that that symbol really indicates
>support of different orientations rather that actually having one, and
>I certainly consider myself open and supporting others.
I *LIKE* that straight button. :) *grins*... considering it next time.
Of course... *lols* .. I have no problem with friendly *whatever*s,
from friends of either gender. *smile* .... *lol* ...
Kits (and the Wyattdragon)
Aetobatus
[...]
>
>After all, SIGs stimulate discussion ... no? At least, as a sig-host,
>that's what *I* used a sig for.
>
>*low chuckle* ... For instance... "So .. I've always wondered.. How is
>it like being a prey animal? I've never been one, and ... etc" .. *G*
>(to the rabbit sig, of course) ...
This is as good of a time as any to mention what's in store for
Further Confusion, actually...
There is, on the schedule, a SIG named "Animal Totems: Past and
Present," which is what they ended up titling the SIG I asked for on
the schedule. I'll admit, when I first saw it, I though "eep! `furry
spiritualaty' became this?" but, as I think about it, it is actually
probably a good focus for a meeting, and better in title than the
(overly vague) "Furry spirituality." We tentatively have a room for
at least 2 or 3 hours in the evening (starting around 9PM). I'm
currently listed as the moderator, but have been talking to Arden, who
I suspect will be listed also. We're working up a paragraph or so to
appear in the schedule in regards to the SIG. I'd love to hear
suggestions from folks here, especially in comparison to other recent
events (like the evening AAC meeting).
There were also a couple of other SIGs at AAC I attended which could
be interesting to incorporate to some extent into this; in particular,
"Everlasting Stories" (which the book described as "Beauty and the
Beast, Call of the Wild, [...]: How did these and other timeless
stories inspire and influence the `animal' inside of us?"[1] Some of
the discussions therein could easily be handled in something like
"Totems: Past and Present." Also, assumign we're the last meeting of
the day (and if we start at 9PM, and have at least 2 hours, I would
guess that's the case), I think we could work into something like what
we did in the evening at AAC...
[...]
>Quite. And it is, as long as you remember to ACCEPT other people's
>opinions, and consider them, no matter if they are disagreeable or
>not.
My view exactly...
[...]
>>CF9 was my first con, and I suspect I can guess at some of the
>>things. I kept looking around, a bit in mental shock, thinking "My
>>god, this is REALLY happening!" On one hand, it was a bit of a shock
>>which to this day sits in the back of my mind, causing me to ask
>>myself "Is this really right?" but on the other, I probably got the
>>shock factor out of the way at the start, which is IMHO a Good Thing.
>
>Mm.. is it good or bad not to have ever been shocked?
I think it is good to be shocked now and then. I've mentioned this
term before, and you may have heard it (I think it appears in the
military on a regular basis): "Stress Loading." The idea is that you
keep stressing yourself just beyond what you are comfortable with (but
not enough that you start to shut down). As the shock we are talking
is just another form of stress, I think being shocked that way is not
unlike stress loading, so yes, I think being shocked now and then is a
Good Thing.
>>*nod* I guess I should count myself lucky that I never really was
>>part of the fandom. :>
>
>*pictures the Aetodwaggie as a drooling fandragon* .. *shakes head in
>puzzlement* .. Nah. :)
Well, I'll drool, if you set the correct food in front of me! :>
[...]
>*lol* .. Join the club. :) And as a note... *g* .. there's a pendant I
>wear .. with a chinese dragon on one side ... and the serpent eating
>it's own tail (celtic) in another... :) Mmm.. kinda sorta similar to a
>certain 'furry forever' emblem, perhaps? ;) although, idependently
>arrived at.
Well, the "infinity" in the furry-forever symbol may well have some
common origin with the serpent eating its tail. I'm not sure, and am
really just guessing, but the similarity in meaning and design of the
math infinity and the serpent eating its tail is too strong to be a
pure accident.
[...]
>Mmm. 'full costume' .. You mean, everything you wear *ISN'T* a
>costume? Whether it be buttoned shirt, starched collars, and a trench,
>or ... t-shirt and shorts? :)
Yes and no... I'd certainly be lying if I didn't say that on some
days I didn't pick out clothes for some (often trivial) reason...
[...]
>I *LIKE* that straight button. :) *grins*... considering it next time.
>Of course... *lols* .. I have no problem with friendly *whatever*s,
>from friends of either gender. *smile* .... *lol* ...
Yeah, I noticed. :>
Aeto, the pounced
[1] Hmmm... They came up with a neat "lifestyler" topic independant
of the "lifestylers." :>
Robert Four-eyes Parish, a gentleman werewolf
>Parish, a gentleman werewolf) wrote:
>>homophobia by some furs,
> Don't you mean 'in-your-face homosexuality'?
No... I think others such as Duncan da Huskey will back me up on
this: I am not at all "in your face" about being Gay. My back ground
is pretty conservative, including a stint in the US Navy, where I
worked my way up to Petty Officer First Class. I may sometimes dress
as a S&M leather "top" at cons with biker jacket, chains and a
werewolf t-shirt. I may even wear cut-off blue-jeans or tan-through
bikini swim trunks. But I am always a gentleman and conduct my public
affairs (even when they involve male to male eroticism) with tact and
decorum. No only do I feel more comfortable with this sort of subdued
eroticism, I think it is actually sexier. I like to flirt in quiet,
subtle ways. It's like foreplay before foreplay, and as such it makes
me feel very alive, and very glad to be a gay man. When someone at a
con says something horribly tacky like "My asshole is hungry!" I wanna
just BARF. (And yes, this has been said at furry cons.) That is a
major turn-off.
It's this that led to my being criticized... it was alledged that my
distaste for flambouyant "queen" behavior was because I was
uncomfortable with being Gay... you know, the old concept of Gay self
hatred making someone want to act more macho. Well... I don't buy
that. I like being a guy very much, thank you. I don't see any need
for me to embrace a the stereotype of the flamboyant and promiscuous
"queer" to be be a self-affirming Gay man.
>>but I think that public displays of affection by hetero couples are just
>>as insensitive!
> I'm not sure about insensitive, but there does appear to be a degree of
>hypocrisy regarding the fact that whilst two men holding hands might be seen
>as some as 'in your face', all manner of heterosexual imagery in pop musics,
>adverts, soaps and other pop culture items is not. *shrug*
I agree with you here. I am hoping though that this shall change in
time as the media becomes more open to presenting positive images of
Gay folk. Of course, we shall have to take a lot of lumps from the
Right in the interim. Now those people are a bunch of hypocrits!
Robert Four-eyes Parish, a gentleman werewolf
>"Four-eyes" Parish, a gentleman werewol<6uf1ho$am6$2...@supernews.com> wrote:
>>con says something horribly tacky like "My asshole is hungry!" I wanna
>>just BARF. (And yes, this has been said at furry cons.) That is a
>>major turn-off.
> *giggle* Just the kind of thing that someone from South Park might say ;)
ARGH! What an APPALLING thought... Cartman as a furry fanboy who
plays a "yiffy fox" character on furrymuck! Oh man... I wish I hadn't
spaghetti for supper now... *urp!* Almost to true to be funny!
<LOL!>
Alexander Bluebyrd
maybe in 1998 cons were ruled by people which did not want "hyoomans" and posers, now, 23 years later (yeah, lots of time have passed) cons welcome everyone, furries and non furries, fursuiters and non fursuiters, everything can change into good.
From what I know after being ostracised, sibe started hating the fandom and lifestylers in particular.