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There is something about furry.

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David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)

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May 14, 2001, 9:48:53 AM5/14/01
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And I'm not quite sure what it is. I have watched furry take broken
people and some how make them better. It doesn't happen immediately
but over time people some how become more sociable and more able to
cope with the world.

Some time ago I went threw a shift, I didn't relize it then but a
combernation of furry and Eva pushed something deep down inside me and
changed my whole world view, it woke something up.

One of the common threads in the "Vanity Fair" reports, missed in the
bruw-ha-ha about sex was the accounts from a number of people who said
the same thing.

I've seen others go threw a simmlar transformation. I wonder if my
exprence is as common as I beleave it is.

--
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See
http://dformosa.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more.
Free the Memes.

Kimba W. Lion

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May 14, 2001, 2:00:11 PM5/14/01
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dfor...@zeta.org.au (David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)) wrote:

>And I'm not quite sure what it is. I have watched furry take broken
>people and some how make them better. It doesn't happen immediately
>but over time people some how become more sociable and more able to
>cope with the world.

In the past I would have credited "furry", too. But as I sit here reeling
from the sight of one ALFer ridiculing and calling for violence against
another "lifestyler"[1], I have to say that any noted improvement in a
person's life is due to the individuals' personal character, strength, and
desire to grow. A person may embrace furry things on the path to personal
improvement, but the credit does not go to "furry"--it belongs solely to
the individual person.

Kimba
[1] No, not on ALF.
I have these funny notions about carryover into other areas.

Bartholomew Shadowalker

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May 14, 2001, 2:31:22 PM5/14/01
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"David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)" <dfor...@zeta.org.au> wrote in message
news:slrn9fvoid....@dformosa.zeta.org.au...

> And I'm not quite sure what it is. I have watched furry take broken
> people and some how make them better. It doesn't happen immediately
> but over time people some how become more sociable and more able to
> cope with the world.

> I've seen others go threw a simmlar transformation. I wonder if my


> exprence is as common as I beleave it is.

I've seen it too, a lot. But I don't think it's just 'furry'. Furry may have
more going through this, because of the high friendliness level.(For the
most part, Kimba, exceptions aside), but the cause, I think, is a sense of
community. Too often, in our daily life, we are in a situation where
community has been dismantled. I suspect the cause is a lack of tolerance.
Every 'group' in America, and in other western countries to a lesser extent,
is at war with every other 'group'. And they seem to have no room for
compramise. A kind of group insanity. So we seek our communities elsewhere.
When you find one that fits, like furry, you begin to heal.

Barth.


FlepKitsu

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May 14, 2001, 11:27:55 PM5/14/01
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David says:

>I've seen others go threw a simmlar transformation. I wonder if my
>exprence is as common as I beleave it is.

I think it is. I know thats how it was for me. Meeting Alex Rakune and the
small host of other furs I first ran into on-line is possibly the most positive
life-altering event Ive ever been through.
And as a consequence of those first meetings, I have met so many other
wonderful and caring people with whom I share this strange bond. Its wonderful
: )

flep kitsu


Curiosity is knowing that sometimes the question is just as important as the
answer.

D.Jean Cooper

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May 15, 2001, 1:52:40 AM5/15/01
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That may be so, Kimba, but I feel that we're at least
an oases, a place to get one's breath back and
regroup. It's a place where one can get one's paws under
one again before moving on or go and come back from
time to time. Not many places on the Net that you can
do that. Here and alt.callahans both have much the same
sense of community and welcoming for others and old-timers
coming back to visit. -Walk in Balance

Ambergold Wolfeyes
SCA: Lady Aelfreda O'Llyn Ewig
--
D.Jean Cooper
dcooper at inav dot net

DawnWolf

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May 15, 2001, 7:43:07 AM5/15/01
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Whurf,

"D.Jean Cooper" <dco...@inav.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3B00C428...@inav.net...


> That may be so, Kimba, but I feel that we're at least
> an oases, a place to get one's breath back and
> regroup. It's a place where one can get one's paws under
> one again before moving on or go and come back from
> time to time. Not many places on the Net that you can
> do that. Here and alt.callahans both have much the same
> sense of community and welcoming for others and old-timers
> coming back to visit. -Walk in Balance

That sense of community on alf may well be there. However, I have made an
observation over the past two years that seems to say the opposite:

Particularly young furs seem to be all a-glow with furry when they start
out, with a sense of "we are all one big loving furry family". Many, over
the course of a year or two, seem to grow disillusioned and then
disassociate themselves from "furry".

This would be a good thing, if it was not connected with a certain
bitterness over said disillusionment.

Maybe this is particular to the German side of the fandom. I don't think
that is the case, though. What seems to be the case is that the online world
(mostly chats, it seems) is taken for real, taken too seriously. And that
there is an expectation for furries to _be_ one big loving cuddly family.
Which they are not, of course. Furries are people like anyone else, meaning
there's a great many who you won't care about, a few that annoy you like a
bright-pink wool sweater on a buxom lapdog ;-), and a few that you can care
deeply about. And this degree of reality, somehow, puts those furries off
when they realize that furry is not a fantasy safe-haven.

Has anyone else seen this development, from
over-the-top-bouncy-whee-we're-all-furry to
I-was-naive-to-have-such-dreams-let's-bury-them over the course of a couple
of years?

Wags
DawnWolf

Camstone Fox

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May 15, 2001, 12:47:35 PM5/15/01
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> Has anyone else seen this development, from
> over-the-top-bouncy-whee-we're-all-furry to
> I-was-naive-to-have-such-dreams-let's-bury-them over the course of a
couple
> of years?

*An anthropomorphic red fox pads out from the kitchen and takes a chair
beside the table, turns it around so his arms drape over the backrest, and
sips from his large mug of coffee, looking very interested in the
discussion*

I'd say I've witnessed this happen with many furs, and I doubt there is a
single path that any one community takes. (from my repeated discussions on
the "Fursonal Journey") But I will agree that there are some who come in
with the "all-a-glow, I've found Nervana" attitude, but also that some that
come in from other sides of the fandom with a "Oh, this is interesting,
maybe I'll stop and watch for awhile..." attitude.

And while some furs do tend to fizzle in the heat of flame wars that have
errupted here in ALF, I see quite a few that go and return at random but
regular intervals, and then other older furs do the same... all mostly
depending on either RL needs, or on emotional contentment. There are a few
who do leave the lifestyle, seeing that what it is is just not what they
wanted it to be. Either that or they get fed up with either the emotional
roller coaster ride or the fur who might have used them for one reason or
another. And don't think that there isn't a part of the fandom that doesn't
use others... because most of us can recount one specific instance or
another... that they knew first hand.

But probably the worst thing of all is the furs who I see come in, bright
and jubulint.. and want to do something to be part of it all... they come
with wild entusiasm, and gleeful hopes of "Wow, this is great, if only the
rest of the world knew about this." And then they see some part of the
fandom that doesn't quite meet with their beliefs or understanding.They then
try and take it on, full of self righteousness... claiming they want to make
the fandom better. This invaritably leads to a clash of wills and
understanding. And often those idealistic furs hopes are dashed either by
being declared as young brute outcasts, or by outright arguments for or
against some piece of "furry" that somefur holds dear and close to their own
heart - but that many others do not. The new fur recoils with the
understanding that this is NOT the all wonderful nervana, and that heaven is
indeed an illusion again.... and will sometimes search for other outlets
into the furry lifestyle. Some fall into confusion and tourment, not
understanding... and some think that maybe others outside the community are
right.. they see some furs who do go too far... and think that their
parents or family, or other authority figures are right... and that they
are/were partly insane... and they give it their fur, or "grow out of it."
From a point of veiw of preservation of self.

We too... the furs that are around... fail to see this. I know I have with a
few. And we fail to redirect their enthusiasm into something productive...
anything productive... and they then feel like they have no real connection
or feel no real attachment to the fur community, the one I call "homestead"
anyway. They feel sometimes like they have failled yet again... or worst...
feel we have failed because we have become too set in our ways... not
wanting to be the flag bearers for the fur... that our enthesuaism has
slipped... we let real life get in our way... we ourselves failed to make
"Nervana" occur.... and they feel we need to be removed as an obstacle.

In a sense, I think this is in part what happens to many in the BF
movement... that they in fact do recoil at some specific or implied
happenstance... and they find that all the previously unfettered ideas, like
that of the "group snuggle pile," now all become something sick and twisted
with hidden double meanings and innuendo. They too fall victims to the "Self
righteousness" illness, and worst yet... to their own paranoia. They find
respite in an area or another... pull away from the majority... but will
become very "violent" in their posts at some point, when their "hot button"
is pressed.

Still others, many more of late - due to the recent publicity of the fandom,
recoil that their private lives, their secret ideas... are becoming
acceptable... or open to possible public ridicule. Some have already been
reproached for various parts of their lives, some by parents who are
unthoughtful, some by friends who just don't understand... and they find
something that they want and we all desire... acceptance. And while they are
openly accepted into places like alf, they then recoil again when they are
reproached heavily for something that might have even been taken out of
context, or when they made a mistake. Part, in truth, is that we all make
mistakes over our lifetimes... even when we are part of the fur lifestyle
for some time.

And sometimes, how we ourselves react to these mistakes... either on our own
part, or as seen as the act of others... makes a whole world of difference
in how the person percieves the furry lifestyle.

*sighs, and laps up some coffee from my mug*

Guess I needed to get that off my chestruff, huh?

Oh well... I'm sure someone will rail me for something I said. *smiles
softly* Feel free... it's all part of sharing ourselves... saying what's on
our mind.

By the way... what ideas could I tell a new fur who was looking to do
something positive as a part of the fur lifestyle to do? Anyone interested
in starting some positive alf self help projects... or am I asking the wrong
thing again?

Camstone Fox

David Cooke

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May 15, 2001, 6:33:39 AM5/15/01
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David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus) <dfor...@zeta.org.au> wrote:
>
>And I'm not quite sure what it is. I have watched furry take broken
>people and some how make them better. It doesn't happen immediately
>but over time people some how become more sociable and more able to
>cope with the world.

I think we should be cautious about regarding furry as a panacea for
mental health and socialization problems. I've seen the best efforts
of this community hold someone in stasis, giving them a crutch, keeping
them from seeking and getting proper medical treatment which could
actually resolve the problem. I've watched it burn out friendships
and individuals.

Yes, I do think furry can help people alot who have minor problems,
I've seen that much in myself. But I also recognise the need to
step back from things we cannot deal with, lest we do more harm than
good.

David Cooke.

--
Did her kind, partaking as they did of the nature of both beast and human,
make love as men or wolves? Or was their coupling some secret beauty denied
to both beast and man? Something unique only to themselves?
The Silver Wolf - Alice Borchardt
[ Address munged: replace "Burma.SPAM" with "demon.co" to reply. ]

Kamau

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May 15, 2001, 9:46:49 PM5/15/01
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Camstone Fox <cams...@email.com> wrote in message
news:9drmjf$jce$1...@raccoon.fur.com...
\ \snip/ /

> Oh well... I'm sure someone will rail me for something I said. *smiles
> softly* Feel free... it's all part of sharing ourselves... saying what's
on
> our mind.
>
> By the way... what ideas could I tell a new fur who was looking to do
> something positive as a part of the fur lifestyle to do? Anyone interested
> in starting some positive alf self help projects... or am I asking the
wrong
> thing again?
>
*Kamau slip into the chair near Cam, takes a sip from his Marine coffee mug
then replies.*

Well the first thing that comes to mind is research. I think anyone who
wants to learn about themselves and their furriness can benefit from
researching their phenotype. Information shared from that can enrich the
group and questions raised during the research can be good for discussions
here.

It they have the skill they could work on one of the proposed web sites or
try to help other furs who do not have the skill to build web sites.

*Takes another sip of coffee.*

Just a couple of quick thoughts, I'll have to ponder some others.

--

Kamau
}{For a Lion Pride is a strength not a weakness}{
http://www.chameleon.net/kamau/index.htm

FFL6ac A- C+ Dm++ H+ M P++ R+ T+++ W Z Sm# RLCT/GP a++ cn++ d e+++ f++h-i+j-
p* sm#


Lucius

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May 15, 2001, 10:09:50 PM5/15/01
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"David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)" wrote in message

> And I'm not quite sure what it is. I have watched furry take broken
> people and some how make them better.

I've seen it bring a few people out of "shells", and change their lives
positively. In many ways, it did something similar for me.

> One of the common threads in the "Vanity Fair" reports, missed in the
> bruw-ha-ha about sex was the accounts from a number of people who said
> the same thing.

It's too bad that they didn't include _all_ the interviews they did. Or
at least condenced versions of them. Then again, I personaly don't see
anything wrong with the sexual side of "furry".

> I've seen others go threw a simmlar transformation. I wonder if my
> exprence is as common as I beleave it is.

I can think of quite a few of my close fur-friends that would say that
"furry" has definately transformed them in some way. It has been such a
part of my life now for the last 3 years, that I wonder where I might be
now....had I never stumbled accross it. I don't think it would be as nice a
place.


--
Lucius (_) (_)
-the longeared ponyboy-
Hail Seth
Illumination through erotognosis

"The consciousness of self is the greatest hindrance to the proper execution
of all physical action"


FlepKitsu

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May 15, 2001, 10:46:19 PM5/15/01
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Kimba says:

>I have to say that any noted improvement in a
> person's life is due to the individuals' personal character, strength, and
> desire to grow.

Youre probably right. But it doesnt hurt to have contact with some good,
kind-hearted people- like yourself. : )
There will probably always be those who detract from the more positive element
by behaving derisively, but thier presence only serves to more starkly contrast
the light cast by those who are supportive, caring, and open-minded. Dont let
em get you down.

FlepKitsu

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May 15, 2001, 10:56:31 PM5/15/01
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Dawnwolf says:

>Has anyone else seen this development, from
>over-the-top-bouncy-whee-we're-all-furry to
>I-was-naive-to-have-such-dreams-let's-bury-them over the course of a >couple
of years

Oddly enough, I had my own period like that- when I felt like I had been
behaving rather unrealistically, projecting my hopes onto those I met early on,
trying to make them into ideals, when they were in fact simply people like
everyone else.
I skipped the Anthrocon in 98 and bailed from the internet for a few months as
a consequence.
But in the end I realised that the fault was largely my own- had I been more
sensible, had I taken a more responsible perspective, I think my initial
relationships here would have been longer-lasting and more fulfilling, simply
because they would have been more, shall we say, real : P
I also realised that my sense of furriness is important to me, and my
connection to other furry people is very important to me. Being able to come
here and communicate with others about those things is vital.
But my FRIENDS, furry or not, are friends because of WHO they are and not WHAT
they are.

Rainbow 'Roo

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May 16, 2001, 2:16:17 AM5/16/01
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On Mon, 14 May 2001 13:48:53 GMT, dfor...@zeta.org.au (David Formosa

(aka ? the Platypus)) wrote:

FWIW, varying social elements of the fandom have changed me completely
- and for the better, I daresay.

For a few years, I kept to myself on a furry themed muck - channeling
my emotions into various creativity via forms for characters of mine,
which I've often thought of casting into stories, and have done so, on
at least one occasion. Despite this however, I was quite the unsocial
and shy individual where rl was concerned. I still remember how shy
and afraid I had been during my first encounter with a group of furs
and or fans of the fandom. Only two conventions and a few
miscellaneous meets later - I feel as if I'm a whole new person. I
can pretty much strike up a conversation with other furs without
feeling a creeping nervousness in my heart, and I have a much more
positive outlook on life. Although there are certain elements at
conventions that I tend to shy away from - I still enjoy them greatly
if not for the simple fact that there isn't much in the way of hate
and scrutiny as there is in so much of mainstream society. Where in
society it seems there is an ever present push to make one conform to
what media and society as a mass labels as 'normal' - I've found that
at a convention, I can pretty much be myself. Granted that one should
still keep themselves proper in this environment, hygiene-wise and
what have you, and though not everyone does... It still warms my heart
that I can go about among others there, not criticized for who I am.
I tend to have the mindset(or so I prefer to believe), as well as
roleplay a female character online, despite being a male gender wise.
Funny that it would take me a little over three years of mucking
online before I would come to realize that I wouldn't be ostracized
for this self-shaping preference of mine. I whole-heartedly want and
try to understand how badly some of the elements within furrydom are
affecting some individuals - but I do take heart in knowing that it
does help some overcome barriers around their hearts that have taken a
lifetime to construct.
-Rainbow Roo

ICQ the 'roo!: 93127116
Remove the rooness! in my email to email me.
Furry Code:
FMaK3acm A C++ D+++ H++ M++ P+++ R- T+++ W Z Sf+ RLLW a22 cd++ d++ e+ f++++ h* iw++ j p+ sm-

DawnWolf

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May 16, 2001, 8:24:45 AM5/16/01
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Whurf, fox!

Camstone said:
[lengthy and very good discussion/analysis snipped]

> By the way... what ideas could I tell a new fur who was looking to do
> something positive as a part of the fur lifestyle to do? Anyone interested
> in starting some positive alf self help projects... or am I asking the
wrong
> thing again?

I think that you are asking a very good question indeed. It is true, I
myself see young furs aglow and enthusiastic, and I respond with a kind of
jaded "that's nice", expecting their enthusiasm to fade. When it could
instead be directed towards creativity.

I like Kamau's answer: Provide them with projects to contribute to, such as
information sites on their phenotype.

How could we, the "established furs", help with that, then? Why, simple! We
need a list of sites that welcome additions and are looking for helpers, and
each site needs a coordinator that takes in whatever contributions trickle
in and makes them part of the site.

For example, the Deutsche Wolfsgesellschaft is always looking for furs to
find and translate news items about wolves. I am sure similar wants exists
elsewhere in the world, even where translation is not involved.

An official "alf furry philosophy" page would also be nice, organizing and
showing the diversity of thought that is "furry". The difficulty is probably
in selecting contributions and trying to make sure it doesn't begin to
sprawl. Such a site could have space for thought from the shamanistic
viewpoint and its variations over the various reincarnation ideas that were
discussed to whether furs tend to be more unstable than "normal" people and
why to why there are so many lesbigays in the furry fandom to the reasons
for, against and behind an animosity towards humans to ... well, basically a
repository for all those topics that keep popping up time and time again on
here. It is a shame that all that good thought and all these great articles
are not available in one place.

Unless they are, and I just missed it :o)

So, um, er ... now comes the hard part. Volunteers? ;-)

DawnWolf

m.copper

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May 16, 2001, 12:54:54 AM5/16/01
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DawnWolf wrote:

> An official "alf furry philosophy" page would also be nice, organizing and
> showing the diversity of thought that is "furry". The difficulty is
probably
> in selecting contributions and trying to make sure it doesn't begin to
> sprawl. Such a site could have space for thought from the shamanistic
> viewpoint and its variations over the various reincarnation ideas that
were
> discussed to whether furs tend to be more unstable than "normal" people
and
> why to why there are so many lesbigays in the furry fandom to the reasons
> for, against and behind an animosity towards humans to ... well, basically
a
> repository for all those topics that keep popping up time and time again
on
> here. It is a shame that all that good thought and all these great
articles
> are not available in one place.
>
> Unless they are, and I just missed it :o)
>
> So, um, er ... now comes the hard part. Volunteers? ;-)

I'm working on it! I'm working on it! Please be patient.
It should be operational soon.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/m.copper/essays.html

--
Sabbath


Bartholomew Shadowalker

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May 16, 2001, 1:15:20 PM5/16/01
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"DawnWolf" <dawn...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message

<Snips a good and thoughtful post>

> So, um, er ... now comes the hard part. Volunteers? ;-)
>
> DawnWolf

Hiya, DawnWolf.

Count me in.

Barth

barth...@n2trouble.com


FlepKitsu

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May 16, 2001, 10:24:12 PM5/16/01
to
Kamau says:

>I think anyone whowants to learn about themselves and their furriness >can
benefit fromresearching their phenotype.

Good idea : )
While I think the other ideas contributed so far are a lot more practical and
much easier to help people with than mine, I would also recommend to furs just
coming into this environment, that they work on thier Self-Awareness- which is
to say, not only the awareness and understanding of the connection they share
with thier phenotype, but more basically, the depth of the knowledge they have
about themselves as individuals.
This can be a good environment in which to expand that understanding, through
interaction in some of the discussions about spirituality and the like that go
on here sometimes, but its good to have some balance initially when approaching
such a large group of people with such diverse ideas.
Self-awareness, because it gives us insight into our interactions with other
people and allows us to use our own reactions and ideas as an example, can help
one not to feel offended by the opinions of others regardless of how they are
presented, and can act as a safe gaurd against tendencies which we may have
that could offend others. It can also make a good barrier against the sometimes
overwhelming inundation of ideas and beliefs that one can encounter in a forum
like this one.
Blah blah blah ::::laughs::::

David Cooke

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May 17, 2001, 10:28:57 AM5/17/01
to
DawnWolf <dawn...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>Camstone said:
>[lengthy and very good discussion/analysis snipped]
>
>> By the way... what ideas could I tell a new fur who was looking to do
>> something positive as a part of the fur lifestyle to do? Anyone interested
>> in starting some positive alf self help projects... or am I asking the
>wrong
>> thing again?
>
>I think that you are asking a very good question indeed. It is true, I
>myself see young furs aglow and enthusiastic, and I respond with a kind of
>jaded "that's nice", expecting their enthusiasm to fade. When it could
>instead be directed towards creativity.
>
>I like Kamau's answer: Provide them with projects to contribute to, such as
>information sites on their phenotype.
>
>How could we, the "established furs", help with that, then? Why, simple! We
>need a list of sites that welcome additions and are looking for helpers, and
>each site needs a coordinator that takes in whatever contributions trickle
>in and makes them part of the site.

I think a big problem here is that whatever site someone wants to
contribute needs the buy-in of the community before it will thrive.
That's going to be difficult if someone new turns up with a new idea,
and it isn't supported by the existing furs.

Of course there may be good, known reasons why something would be a bad
idea.

>An official "alf furry philosophy" page would also be nice, organizing and
>showing the diversity of thought that is "furry". The difficulty is probably
>in selecting contributions and trying to make sure it doesn't begin to
>sprawl. Such a site could have space for thought from the shamanistic
>viewpoint and its variations over the various reincarnation ideas that were
>discussed to whether furs tend to be more unstable than "normal" people and
>why to why there are so many lesbigays in the furry fandom to the reasons
>for, against and behind an animosity towards humans to ... well, basically a
>repository for all those topics that keep popping up time and time again on
>here. It is a shame that all that good thought and all these great articles
>are not available in one place.

I've been thinking for a while that a wiki-wiki-web on fur lifestyle
would be a neat thing to have, though I suspect it would require some
development over the standard wiki implementation - for instance some
kind of authorization to prevent vandalism.

For everyone going "Whats a wiki?", its a site where pages are automatically
linked together, and anyone can edit and update the text.

"Official" is another problem: there isn't any way that something can
be official for alf.

For my own part I've two alf related projects on the go:

Furlife webring - this has become impossible to maintain thans to Yahoo,
but I have some PGP/mySql code written that will allow us to re-launch
the ring. I'm currently waiting on Aeto to install it on his server.
Furlife used to link up alot of the sites where furs from this group
expressed their personal furriness - I'd like to see it restored to
its former glory.

I'm also re-writing some of it for Apache/Tomcat/mySql using J2EE, part
of a larger project ...

Wayback Machine - a long standing name for the archive of all the
posts made to alf. The long term aim is to make this available online
so that the accumulated wisdom isn't lost. The big problem with getting
this done has been processing power, there's over 600M of data to
process. However, I hope to soon acquire a suitable machine.

David Cooke.

--
"So Lister, what are you telling us? You're a closet squirrel? Behind closed
doors you parade up and down with a strap on bushy tail, calling yourself
Nutkin?" -- "What I'm telling you Rimmer is that sometimes being human isn't
all its cracked up to be."
[ Address munged: replace "tinker.SPAM" with "demon.co" to reply. ]

cat

unread,
May 18, 2001, 6:54:57 PM5/18/01
to
On Tue, 15 May 2001 12:47:35 -0400, "Camstone Fox"
<cams...@email.com> purred:

>> Has anyone else seen this development, from
>> over-the-top-bouncy-whee-we're-all-furry to
>> I-was-naive-to-have-such-dreams-let's-bury-them over the course of a
>couple
>> of years?
>
>*An anthropomorphic red fox pads out from the kitchen and takes a chair
>beside the table, turns it around so his arms drape over the backrest, and
>sips from his large mug of coffee, looking very interested in the
>discussion*
>
>I'd say I've witnessed this happen with many furs, and I doubt there is a
>single path that any one community takes.

>And while some furs do tend to fizzle in the heat of flame wars that have


>errupted here in ALF, I see quite a few that go and return at random but
>regular intervals, and then other older furs do the same... all mostly
>depending on either RL needs, or on emotional contentment. There are a few
>who do leave the lifestyle, seeing that what it is is just not what they
>wanted it to be.

And yet other long timers who have "dropped off the scope"
when things here started getting too flamed and like AFF. They simply
withdrew (some may still lurk) from ALF but continued to be the fur
they al;ways were, but didn't want to participate in the trolling and
flame wars that have become all too common in the last couple of
years.
There have been times when even I almost called quit to the whole
thing but stayed, at times against my better judgement, because I had
hopes for the group.

>But probably the worst thing of all is the furs who I see come in, bright
>and jubulint.. and want to do something to be part of it all... they come
>with wild entusiasm, and gleeful hopes of "Wow, this is great, if only the
>rest of the world knew about this." And then they see some part of the
>fandom that doesn't quite meet with their beliefs or understanding.They then
>try and take it on, full of self righteousness... claiming they want to make
>the fandom better. This invaritably leads to a clash of wills and
>understanding. And often those idealistic furs hopes are dashed either by
>being declared as young brute outcasts, or by outright arguments for or
>against some piece of "furry" that somefur holds dear and close to their own
>heart - but that many others do not. The new fur recoils with the
>understanding that this is NOT the all wonderful nervana, and that heaven is
>indeed an illusion again.... and will sometimes search for other outlets
>into the furry lifestyle. Some fall into confusion and tourment, not
>understanding... and some think that maybe others outside the community are
>right.. they see some furs who do go too far... and think that their
>parents or family, or other authority figures are right... and that they
>are/were partly insane... and they give it their fur, or "grow out of it."
>From a point of veiw of preservation of self.

And the denial of self is a painful and useless thing.Sooner
or later their inner self will come back out and it may not be as
easily handled this time.

>We too... the furs that are around... fail to see this. I know I have with a
>few. And we fail to redirect their enthusiasm into something productive...
>anything productive...

The problem is I haven't been able to visualize a truly
productive activity for us. Our very diversity does not lend itself to
political or social movements or activism. Our being so widespread
doesn't help us work together, either. We are not wealthy nor have
unlimited free time for organized volunteering (and even if we did,
could we ever agree on what to volunteer for?) The issue of productive
action is one that has me stumped.

>and they then feel like they have no real connection
>or feel no real attachment to the fur community, the one I call "homestead"
>anyway. They feel sometimes like they have failled yet again... or worst...
>feel we have failed because we have become too set in our ways... not
>wanting to be the flag bearers for the fur... that our enthesuaism has
>slipped... we let real life get in our way... we ourselves failed to make
>"Nervana" occur.... and they feel we need to be removed as an obstacle.
>
>In a sense, I think this is in part what happens to many in the BF
>movement... that they in fact do recoil at some specific or implied
>happenstance... and they find that all the previously unfettered ideas, like
>that of the "group snuggle pile," now all become something sick and twisted
>with hidden double meanings and innuendo. They too fall victims to the "Self
>righteousness" illness, and worst yet... to their own paranoia. They find
>respite in an area or another... pull away from the majority... but will
>become very "violent" in their posts at some point, when their "hot button"
>is pressed.

The most virulent anti smoker is one who used to smoke like a
chimney and the most raging anti alcohol activist is the former drunk.
When one feels their beliefs or innocence has been betrayed, they tend
to over react and swing to the polar opposite of the position where
they feel the betrayal happened.

>Still others, many more of late - due to the recent publicity of the fandom,
>recoil that their private lives, their secret ideas... are becoming
>acceptable...

Being acceptable scares the holy whack out of me.

>or open to possible public ridicule.

Been through that often enough that I have learned to ignore
the jibes. Besides, try going into politics if you want to see REAL
ridicule.

>Some have already been
>reproached for various parts of their lives, some by parents who are
>unthoughtful, some by friends who just don't understand... and they find
>something that they want and we all desire... acceptance. And while they are
>openly accepted into places like alf, they then recoil again when they are
>reproached heavily for something that might have even been taken out of
>context, or when they made a mistake. Part, in truth, is that we all make
>mistakes over our lifetimes... even when we are part of the fur lifestyle
>for some time.

And I could be the poster child for making mistakes. the trick
is to be able to overlook or, even, ignore, another's mistake several
times before commenting

>
>And sometimes, how we ourselves react to these mistakes... either on our own
>part, or as seen as the act of others... makes a whole world of difference
>in how the person percieves the furry lifestyle.
>
>*sighs, and laps up some coffee from my mug*
>
>Guess I needed to get that off my chestruff, huh?
>
>Oh well... I'm sure someone will rail me for something I said. *smiles
>softly* Feel free... it's all part of sharing ourselves... saying what's on
>our mind.

Agreed. That's something we all forget, from time to time, is
the real purpose of homestead. the true sharing isn't just the food or
silliness, but our inner journey and the sharing of that with our
peers.

>By the way... what ideas could I tell a new fur who was looking to do
>something positive as a part of the fur lifestyle to do? Anyone interested
>in starting some positive alf self help projects... or am I asking the wrong
>thing again?

Darned if I know of anything positive to do. suggestions would
always be welcome and is something we all should give some thought to.

cat
(worrying about his image after all these serious posts)

Skytech

unread,
May 18, 2001, 9:23:17 PM5/18/01
to
>
> >By the way... what ideas could I tell a new fur who was looking to do
> >something positive as a part of the fur lifestyle to do? Anyone
> interested in starting some positive alf self help projects... or am I
> asking the wrong thing again?
>
> Darned if I know of anything positive to do. suggestions would
> always be welcome and is something we all should give some thought to.
>

I now realize the family and I have been lurking more and more. Just
don't know what to say....

My more positive furry contribution has to be the $300 I donated to the
local Zoological Garden without claiming it for tax purposes!!!
--
La gvatantaj vulpoj (The vigilant foxes)
Skytech Lana
^^ ^^
<@@> <~~>
./ ./

Nick

unread,
May 18, 2001, 9:27:34 PM5/18/01
to
>My more positive furry contribution has to be the $300 I donated to the
>local Zoological Garden without claiming it for tax purposes!!!

Whoa! How about donating a few Benjamins to the "Nick is stuck with a shitty
P233mhz machine and needs a whole new system but is 16 without a steady
paycheck Fund?" ;)


-- Nick:

"'Controversial', as we all know, is often an euphemism for 'Interesting' and
'Intelligent'" -Kevin Smith

My Furry Code:

FFp2as A C- D+ H+ M P- R++ T++ W Z++ Sm RLCT/LW/S/AT a16 cdln++++$ d+++ e- f-
h* iw+++ j++ p++ sm

cat

unread,
May 18, 2001, 11:08:32 PM5/18/01
to
On Fri, 18 May 2001 21:23:17 -0400, "Skytech" <sky...@ix.netcom.com>
purred:

>My more positive furry contribution has to be the $300 I donated to the
>local Zoological Garden without claiming it for tax purposes!!!

Hey! That's illegal! (In 1982 the IRS prosecuted a Florida
millionaire for not declaring over $4mil in donations. up til then I
never thought it was illegal. Seems like a screwy law to me)
good for you!

cat

Skytech

unread,
May 19, 2001, 11:43:32 AM5/19/01
to
>
> Whoa! How about donating a few Benjamins to the "Nick is stuck with a
shitty
> P233mhz machine and needs a whole new system but is 16 without a
steady
> paycheck Fund?" ;)
>

Too late. My sister still owes me a grand for the system I paid for her.

233?! I thought they became part of the oil and gas layer!
--
La gvatanta vulpo (The vigilant fox)
Skytech
^^
<@@>
.]

Skytech

unread,
May 19, 2001, 11:50:29 AM5/19/01
to
>
> Hey! That's illegal! (In 1982 the IRS prosecuted a Florida
> millionaire for not declaring over $4mil in donations. up til then I
> never thought it was illegal. Seems like a screwy law to me)
> good for you!
>

Scary when you consiter the rich hide 99% of their money while declaring
all contributions for tax writeoffs! Explains why billionaires pay as
much as I do in taxes while very publically annoucing what
philantropists they are. And now Bush is giving them even more tax
relief?!!!

Ooooo, I'm dyyyyin' again!!
--
La gvatanta vulpo (The vigilant fox) <Rant off>
Skytech
^^
<99>
.U

Nick

unread,
May 19, 2001, 2:30:01 PM5/19/01
to
>Too late. My sister still owes me a grand for the system I paid for her.
>
>233?! I thought they became part of the oil and gas layer!

LOL :D

Well, I've got a 32mb TNT2 PCI in it and 80mb of system RAM, so it handles HL
and Quake III rather well, but it has problems with flight sims and other heavy
number-crunching apps like Photoshop, etc.

Ben_Raccoon

unread,
May 19, 2001, 5:08:27 PM5/19/01
to
"Skytech" <sky...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> Too late. My sister still owes me a grand for the system I paid for her.
>
> 233?! I thought they became part of the oil and gas layer!

Are you kidding? I've got my Linux box running on a p1 133 with 40 megs of
RAM. surprisingly fast, considering it's Redhat 6.2. (and still not
completely set up)


--
For a brief time I was here; and for a
brief time I mattered. - Harlan Ellison

Anyone who takes any of this seriously,
deserves to. -- Donna Barr


Website! www.furnation.com/ben_raccoon
Furnation down? www.tigerden.com/~ben


Zenwolf

unread,
May 19, 2001, 6:28:42 PM5/19/01
to

In reply to:
http://www.etin.com/article/Article.jsp?
messageID=17697314&folder=alt.lifestyle.furryMy more positive furry
contribution has to be the $300 I donated to the
>local Zoological Garden without claiming it for tax purposes!!!

Whoa! How about donating a few Benjamins to the "Nick is stuck with a

shitty
P233mhz machine and needs a whole new system but is 16 without a
steady
paycheck Fund?" ;)

Howabout you go to jobsRus.com and look for a real job?HTH,HAND
ZW
-- Nick:

"'Controversial', as we all know, is often an euphemism for 'Interesting'
and
'Intelligent'" -Kevin Smith

My Furry Code:

FFp2as A C- D+ H+ M P- R++ T++ W Z++ Sm RLCT/LW/S/AT a16
cdln++++$ d+++ e- f-
h* iw+++ j++ p++ sm


----
Posted via http://www.etin.com - the FREE public USENET portal on the Web
Complete SEARCHING, BROWSING, and POSTING of text and BINARY messages!

Ben_Raccoon

unread,
May 19, 2001, 7:40:04 PM5/19/01
to
"Kiala Dreamstalker" <ki...@lycanthrope.net> wrote in message
news:3B06EC0D...@lycanthrope.net...

> Ben_Raccoon wrote:
> > Are you kidding? I've got my Linux box running on a p1 133 with 40 megs
of
> > RAM. surprisingly fast, considering it's Redhat 6.2. (and still not
> > completely set up)
>
> RedHat?? *hisses* keep away! =P
>

Rarr! ~menaces Kiala with the Box of Satan~

What is it about Redhat that people hate? (besides the fact that they're
trying to make Linux usable for Windoze users)

Kiala Dreamstalker

unread,
May 19, 2001, 7:53:40 PM5/19/01
to
Ben_Raccoon wrote:
> What is it about Redhat that people hate? (besides the fact that they're
> trying to make Linux usable for Windoze users)

Unix was originally designed around security and actual useful
applications for large corporations, something to run those big servers.

Linux was the answer to running Unix on what was then simple desktop
machines, and to do it for free.

But liunx has maintained the security aspect, being very careful to not
leave ANY holes open for people to attack, and to allow system
administrators to actually get into the system and close holes the
designers may have overlooked

Redhat throws that out, saying "let's work to be more towards windows"
Or rather, towards the Linux community's perception of windows. First
they started by throwing massive amounts of cosmetic code in.. make it
look good as opposed to making it work.. They left security holes open..
and generally just fucked with the karma of the thing, making it..
rather distasteful to use..

That's my beef with Redhat =P

-Kiala, Webmaster, Draconic Networks
=====-===-==-=--=-----.---.--.-..-..... ... .. . . . |
|.8.8.888.|Kiala Dreamstalker |"For centuries, we were the |
|.8.8..8..|ki...@dreamchaos.net |watchers. Now we awake -- and|
|.88...8..|www.dreamchaos.org |your world can never go back."|
|.8.8..8..|Author, Mage, Theri |-Dennis Redwing, Tomorrowlands|
|.8.8.888.| ICQ: 17611893 | IRC: Kiala | Member of FurBuy.com |
| . . . .. ... .....-..-.--.---.-----=--=-==-===-=====

Nick

unread,
May 19, 2001, 9:18:58 PM5/19/01
to
I use Linux Mandrake when I have enough space on my puny 2.1G hard drive.
Mandrake is really easy to use and is still very secure.

FlepKitsu

unread,
May 19, 2001, 10:52:39 PM5/19/01
to
Skytech says:

>233?! I thought they became part of the oil and gas layer!

:::laughs:::: mine is at 75 Mhz
DOH!

Kiala Dreamstalker

unread,
May 19, 2001, 9:23:48 PM5/19/01
to
Nick wrote:
> I use Linux Mandrake when I have enough space on my puny 2.1G hard drive.
> Mandrake is really easy to use and is still very secure.

Hello.. HELLO!! *pokepoke* Mandrake=Redhat=Security holes =P

Linux wasn't designed to be user-friendly, that's what windows is for.
Linux is meant for server and stability applications.

Kiala Dreamstalker

unread,
May 19, 2001, 5:56:29 PM5/19/01
to
Ben_Raccoon wrote:
> Are you kidding? I've got my Linux box running on a p1 133 with 40 megs of
> RAM. surprisingly fast, considering it's Redhat 6.2. (and still not
> completely set up)

RedHat?? *hisses* keep away! =P

-Kiala, Webmaster, Draconic Networks

Skipai Da Otter

unread,
May 19, 2001, 3:23:48 PM5/19/01
to
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Nick" <n52p...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010519143001...@ng-fy1.aol.com...


> >Too late. My sister still owes me a grand for the system I paid
> >for her.
> >
> >233?! I thought they became part of the oil and gas layer!

Erm, no. I was using a P233 only last year :o) Now using a K6
2/500.

> LOL :D
>
> Well, I've got a 32mb TNT2 PCI in it and 80mb of system RAM, so it
> handles HL and Quake III rather well, but it has problems with
> flight sims and other heavy number-crunching apps like Photoshop,
> etc.

Hmm. I have a 16Mb Voodoo 3 2000 PCI and it handles HL and Quake III
nicely on 1260x1024 nicely. No slow downs or anything. Not had much
problems with flight sims but then I give credit to glide than d3d..
Glide's a bit better at doing stuff 3D wise... ;o) However, I stick
to my card until I have to upgrade anyway. My mobo don't like AGP
cards...


- --
Skipai Da Otter
Take out mudslide to reply to me
FZp4m A+ C- D++++ H+++ M++ P+ R+ T++++ W- Z Sp+ RLU a24 cadlnw++++ d+
e+++

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David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)

unread,
May 21, 2001, 3:36:29 PM5/21/01
to
On Mon, 14 May 2001 11:31:22 -0700, Bartholomew Shadowalker
<barth...@n2trouble.com> wrote:

[...]

> the cause, I think, is a sense of
> community. Too often, in our daily life, we are in a situation where
> community has been dismantled. I suspect the cause is a lack of tolerance.
> Every 'group' in America, and in other western countries to a lesser extent,
> is at war with every other 'group'. And they seem to have no room for
> compramise. A kind of group insanity. So we seek our communities elsewhere.
> When you find one that fits, like furry, you begin to heal.

Thats an interesting idea. While my contention was that the people
where broken[1], your argument is that socity is the broken one.

[1] Need better word then this.

OnzaQueen

unread,
May 21, 2001, 7:10:48 PM5/21/01
to
Lucius and Baloo said

>> It's too bad that they didn't include _all_ the interviews they did. Or
>> at least condenced versions of them. Then again, I personaly don't see
>> anything wrong with the sexual side of "furry".

>It doesn't exactly need to be splashed everywhere, though. Just a public
>decency thing. That's what got people up in arms about the article. 8:o)

~~
I agree with Lucuis. For some of us, Furry is a sexual thing. I also agree
with Baloo that VF was trying to be Jerry Springer-ish in its presentation of
sexual material. Outside of print media, however, I realize that I have been
Furry since childhood, and I now realize that it is strongly linked to my
sexuality. I am not a zoophile, but I have to admit that I think that big cats
have very yiffy style to them.

Now if I dare mention Vanity Fair again, my opinion is that the article was
mainly just offensive in its selectivity. This selectivity, I feel, caused
George Gurley to miss the mark. If he hadn't been barraged with complaint mail
(or at least I hope he was), he'd probably still think that the definition of a
Furry is a gay white male who enjoys fursuit sex and plushie sex, and
occasionally jacks off to Warner Brothers cartoons on the side.
It was this ridiculously narrow scope that I found offensive. I still disturbs
me that thousands of people who read that article now think that that's what
all Furries are.
I don't know how many Furrs I speak for when I say this, but I use Furry to
contact my inner beast, whose true likeness can be found in the wild, not in
cartoons and toystores.

~ Onza

>~<*>=============================ooo
FFJ6adrsw/DSm5sA+C-D-H-MPR+++T++WZSf++/f-RLUa19c---d?e+f+h+i+jp+sf#

___________________________________________
There is a lot of debate over whether or not jaguars are man-eaters...
That's because we never leave any evidence!

Neko Nick

unread,
May 21, 2001, 7:48:32 PM5/21/01
to
>the definition of a
>Furry is a gay white male who enjoys fursuit sex and plushie sex, and
>occasionally jacks off to Warner Brothers cartoons on the side.
>It was this ridiculously narrow scope that I found offensive.

That's exactly my view on the whole VF thing, along with the ER episode, also.

>I use Furry to
>contact my inner beast, whose true likeness can be found in the wild, not in
>cartoons and toystores.

That would apply to me, also.

-- 'Neko' Nick:

Visit me on the Web at: http://neko_nick.tripod.com/

Mark Wells

unread,
May 21, 2001, 7:51:00 PM5/21/01
to
On 21 May 2001 23:10:48 GMT, onza...@aol.com (OnzaQueen) wrote:

>I agree with Lucuis. For some of us, Furry is a sexual thing. I also agree
>with Baloo that VF was trying to be Jerry Springer-ish in its presentation of
>sexual material. Outside of print media, however, I realize that I have been
>Furry since childhood, and I now realize that it is strongly linked to my
>sexuality. I am not a zoophile, but I have to admit that I think that big cats
>have very yiffy style to them.

AOL. (Especially about the big cats.)

Pretending that sex has nothing to do with furry is like pretending
that sex has nothing to do with being human.

>It was this ridiculously narrow scope that I found offensive. I still disturbs
>me that thousands of people who read that article now think that that's what
>all Furries are.

That was distressing. I'm slightly comforted by the knowledge that
anyone whose view of furry is that twisted wouldn't recognize me as
part of it anyway. I'd have to tell them, and I'd only tell them if
(I thought) they were mature enough to listen to what I have to say
about it instead of believing what the Jerry Springers of the world
tell them.

But maybe that's the worst part of it--that I'm not stigmatized only
as long as I don't tell them.

>I don't know how many Furrs I speak for when I say this, but I use Furry to
>contact my inner beast, whose true likeness can be found in the wild, not in
>cartoons and toystores.

You speak for at least one.

>There is a lot of debate over whether or not jaguars are man-eaters...
> That's because we never leave any evidence!

"People say, 'I never heard of anyone being eaten by a leopard in
Minnesota.' That's the worst part, that you never hear about it,
because when leopards eat a kid, they eat _everything_. Bones and
all."
-- Garrison Keillor, on the snow leopards of Minnesota

FlepKitsu

unread,
May 21, 2001, 11:18:39 PM5/21/01
to
Onza says:

>Now if I dare mention Vanity Fair again, my opinion is that the article >was
mainly just offensive in its selectivity.

I absolutely agree. I was talking to a non-furry friend of mine who lives in
california last night and I mentioned the article to him in this very context.
The main problem with it for me was simply that it focused on what appears, to
me at least, to be about 1/10th or 1 percent of the whole.

>I don't know how many Furrs I speak for when I say this, but I use Furry >to
contact my inner beast, whose true likeness can be found in the wild, >not in
cartoons and toystores.

Yup, that would cover me too in many respects. But I guess the "problem" is
that furriness just isnt simple enough to break down in a way that wouldnt seem
overly selective to SOMEONE. And if you go the other way and try to get as many
different perspectives as possible, youll still offend someone by adding
something that they dont think should have been on the list ::::laughs:::: oh
well : P

David Cooke

unread,
May 22, 2001, 6:59:03 AM5/22/01
to
Kiala Dreamstalker <ki...@lycanthrope.net> wrote:
>Ben_Raccoon wrote:
>> What is it about Redhat that people hate? (besides the fact that they're
>> trying to make Linux usable for Windoze users)

Just to get some facts straight ... alf is not the place for an
OS "discussion".

>Unix was originally designed around security and actual useful
>applications for large corporations, something to run those big servers.

No - Unix was developed as a research project in Bell Labs. There
was no original intention to deploy at large corporations. The early
versions of Unix were _full_ of security holes.

>Linux was the answer to running Unix on what was then simple desktop
>machines, and to do it for free.

Unix has _always_ been able to run on small desktop machines. I've
seen it run on 8Mhz 68k with only a single high denisity floppy drive
for storage. I'm writing this post on a 25Mhz Sparc - and its running
X11, Openwindows, and the news server. Its _small_ compared with the
Athlon on the other side of the desk that is 30 times faster and has
8 times more RAM and 15 times the disk space.

Linux is a clean-room development of Unix, avoiding the licencing
issues that prevented typical home users running Unix.

>But liunx has maintained the security aspect, being very careful to not
>leave ANY holes open for people to attack, and to allow system
>administrators to actually get into the system and close holes the
>designers may have overlooked

Linux may be more stable than windows, but it isn't a patch _yet_ on
the old commercial Unixes. There's a simple reason why: the stability
comes from 15+ years of fixing bugs and exploits.

David Cooke.

--
Why can't you listen properly, Alice? The Newmonia is a terrible disease
that allows animals and humans to get mixed into new combinations.
Automated Alice - Jeff Noon
[ Address munged: replace "superannuate.SPAM" with "demon.co" to reply. ]

Kiala Dreamstalker

unread,
May 22, 2001, 5:10:27 PM5/22/01
to David Cooke
David Cooke wrote:

<snip>

Hmm.. Thanks for the correct facts on that, I wasn't sure if I had all
that right ^_^ Useful info there =>

And yes, I'm dropping out of this thread after this post ;>

David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)

unread,
May 23, 2001, 9:15:31 AM5/23/01
to
On Wed, 16 May 2001 14:24:45 +0200, DawnWolf <dawn...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

[...]

> An official "alf furry philosophy" page would also be nice, organizing and
> showing the diversity of thought that is "furry".

This would be great. Could the site also highlight or include
essays? I think essay writing within the lifestyler community is one
of its features and I would like to see people useing this medium to
explore issues deeper then can be done in a reply to a usenet post.

Neko Nick

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May 23, 2001, 7:16:06 PM5/23/01
to
>This would be great. Could the site also highlight or include
>essays? I think essay writing within the lifestyler community is one
>of its features and I would like to see people useing this medium to
>explore issues deeper then can be done in a reply to a usenet post.
>

I plan on having a section like that on my website... If anyfur wants to get
their's published I can put it on my site and give you full credit for it. Just
contact me here or post something in my message board or guestbook at my
website: The URL's in my sig.

Smrgol -};>~

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May 24, 2001, 1:02:40 AM5/24/01