Notes about the MTV thing

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Kiala Tekalal

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Jan 4, 2002, 6:05:30 PM1/4/02
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I posted this to AFF last night.. I think it's relevent here..

--------------------------------------------------------

Just thought I'd note a few things that I was reflecting on, tonight..

a) the whole documentary was filmed by Rick Castro, not MTV..

b) Yes, all the people in the film do really exist..

c) most of the people in the documentary did not willingly consent to this,
or were tricked into consenting for what they thought was something else..

d) The footage is from several years of furry..

e) Almost all the con footage came from cons that have poor press policies..

f) I remember one time, at CF10, I noticed a guy walking aroing the
dealer's den with an expensive looking camera and recognise him as a guy who
Walksfar had pointed out earlier as media to me. So I told the constaff at
the door that I had seen someone with a camera in the dealer's den and
wasn't sure if they were supposed to be there or not. The staff member
paniced and radioed con-ops about the issue. Later, a security staff member
came up to me, looking rather flustered and said "Look you're not helping!
That's Rick Castro! He's making a documentary on furries, now go away!" At
the time I did not no what Rick had planned, and shrugged it off.. Oh well..
I tried to warn them ;>

g) The show follows a fur named "Yote." I'd like to note that Yote happens
to actually be a very good natured kid who got suckered into something he
didn't realise would be bad for the fandom.. Rick fed him a line of BS, and
like everyone else in that video (and apparently the CF10 staff) he bought
it.. I'm seeing threats at him.. I'd frown on anyone who wishes to give Yote
trouble at the upcoming FC, because I for one will stand up for him..

h) I don't know the legal issues involving such things, but I WOULD urge
anyone who did appear in this video without signing any kind of consent form
to atleast look into talking to a lawyer (preferably one of those that'll
give you one of those free consultations) to see if legal action is
necissary, or even plausable.. Also, the group to go after here is Rick
Castro and his filming crew, NOT MTV.. I'm guessing they may have been
suckered in and didn't know that Castro did NOT have permission to use the
footage he did.. But it's worth checking on..

i) People on newsgroups should not be trusted as legal advice! go find
someone who gets paid to do this sort of thing! ;>

Okay.. I think that's all I have ;>

-Kiala


AJL

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Jan 4, 2002, 6:56:41 PM1/4/02
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Kiala Tekalal wrote:
> a) the whole documentary was filmed by Rick Castro, not MTV..

It was *directed* by Rick Castro. There are 4 names credited for
providing footage, which also includes Rick Castro.

MTV did the final editing, and MTV's staff researched the rights and
permissions for the film. If you recorded it, look at the end credits.

> b) Yes, all the people in the film do really exist..

Unless you know them all personally, I wouldn't be too sure about that.
Rick Castro directed porn videos before this, so it is possible that he
used some actors (I'm not saying he did... just that it is possible,
eh?)

> c) most of the people in the documentary did not willingly consent to this,
> or were tricked into consenting for what they thought was something else..

You also do not know this is true. You are assuming that it is true
because it is easier to accept that way.

> d) The footage is from several years of furry..

There is some footage as old as April of 1999... *maybe* some earlier,
but not all scenes / locations have been identified yet. I don't think
there is any footage newer than October of 2000.

> e) Almost all the con footage came from cons that have poor press policies..

On what basis do you make that statement? Gut feeling? Have you
identified all of the cons that were depicted in the documentary? Have
you cross-referenced their press policies? This kind of statement only
serves to feed rumors.

> f) I remember one time, at CF10, I noticed a guy walking aroing the
> dealer's den with an expensive looking camera and recognise him as a guy who
> Walksfar had pointed out earlier as media to me. So I told the constaff at
> the door that I had seen someone with a camera in the dealer's den and
> wasn't sure if they were supposed to be there or not. The staff member
> paniced and radioed con-ops about the issue. Later, a security staff member
> came up to me, looking rather flustered and said "Look you're not helping!
> That's Rick Castro! He's making a documentary on furries, now go away!" At
> the time I did not no what Rick had planned, and shrugged it off.. Oh well..
> I tried to warn them ;>

That was back in 1999 when Concoms didn't know any better. There are
still some that would welcome press. CF10 did have a press liaison (Ken
Nielson) but at that time Rick Castro was succesfully passing as one of
our own, since he had attended so many cons.

> g) The show follows a fur named "Yote." I'd like to note that Yote happens
> to actually be a very good natured kid who got suckered into something he
> didn't realise would be bad for the fandom.. Rick fed him a line of BS, and
> like everyone else in that video (and apparently the CF10 staff) he bought
> it.. I'm seeing threats at him.. I'd frown on anyone who wishes to give Yote
> trouble at the upcoming FC, because I for one will stand up for him..

Someone else called it "Under-25 syndrome". Yote was just 18 when that
footage was filmed.

> h) I don't know the legal issues involving such things, but I WOULD urge
> anyone who did appear in this video without signing any kind of consent form
> to atleast look into talking to a lawyer (preferably one of those that'll
> give you one of those free consultations) to see if legal action is
> necissary, or even plausable.. Also, the group to go after here is Rick
> Castro and his filming crew, NOT MTV.. I'm guessing they may have been
> suckered in and didn't know that Castro did NOT have permission to use the
> footage he did.. But it's worth checking on..

You are right, there... giving legal advice if you are not an attorney
can make you civilly liable for damages (at lest in most states). Note
that the following is my *opinion*, not my advice:

If you are in a background of a video shot in a public place, you are
fair game for being caught on video, no matter where you are, no matter
what you are doing. No waivers are required. If you were doing
something you would be embarrassed about later, even if it is clipped to
take it out of context, tough luck.

...yet another reason for using discretion.

Camstone Fox

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Jan 4, 2002, 9:46:11 PM1/4/02
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I'd like to make some observations here...

> It was *directed* by Rick Castro. There are 4 names credited for
> providing footage, which also includes Rick Castro.

This is very true, to the point where 'yote has said in other circles that
parts of the entire documentary were even *staged.* Such as the hug scene at
the end with his mother. That put a whole different twist on it for me.

> Unless you know them all personally, I wouldn't be too sure about that.
> Rick Castro directed porn videos before this, so it is possible that he
> used some actors (I'm not saying he did... just that it is possible,
> eh?)

I really wonder about that scene with yote's voice over the point where they
have someone with a hairbrush... and the dalmation tush close up. Know the
one?

> > c) most of the people in the documentary did not willingly consent to
this,
> > or were tricked into consenting for what they thought was something
else..
> You also do not know this is true. You are assuming that it is true
> because it is easier to accept that way.

Actually, a number of furs have already said this in various posts. Kage has
also previously posted here that Castro tried to mislead him as well. I
doubt seriously if Castro could have even made the film - if he made his
true intentions known from the begining.

> > e) Almost all the con footage came from cons that have poor press
policies..
> On what basis do you make that statement? Gut feeling? Have you
> identified all of the cons that were depicted in the documentary? Have
> you cross-referenced their press policies? This kind of statement only
> serves to feed rumors.

Might not be far from the truth given the time frame... you even said
yourself...

> That was back in 1999 when Concoms didn't know any better.

And if concoms don't learn from the mistakes, and we trust them blindly, we
deserve what we get too.

> CF10 did have a press liaison (snipped) but at that


> time Rick Castro was succesfully passing as one of
> our own, since he had attended so many cons.

Seems not too difficult to reason that maybe he mislead some furs about his
true plans for the film, if he mascaraded as a fur, doesn't it?

> Someone else called it "Under-25 syndrome". Yote was just 18 when that
> footage was filmed.

More like a newbie thing regardles of age, but he did make a lot of
assumptions that Castro was going to do a publically accepted positive
piece... I wanted to try and work with the press too, but I had some
experience with working with the press/being interviewed from my job. My
suggestion in furture will be to discourage any fur other than those who
have experience speaking with the press and have known the fandom for many,
many years... and that won't be me. Demographics show that low interest good
news pieces don't interest John Q Public... smut does.

> If you are in a background of a video shot in a public place, you are
> fair game for being caught on video, no matter where you are, no matter
> what you are doing.

Agreed... but is (and should) a membership paid, hotel held, convention of
any kind be considered a public place? (maybe someone can point me to the
legal references for such a case, for my own curiousity, knowledge and
protection as much as anything)

> ...yet another reason for using discretion.

Oh, on that we both are in violent agreement on.

Anyway, my $0.02 on what was said... feel free to disagree. It's a free
newsgroup.

Camstone


David Lazerous

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Jan 5, 2002, 4:57:53 AM1/5/02
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I know many of the furs depicted in this peice of trash, And i know that
they were tricked into being apart of this. And in agreement with Kiala,
anyone who wishes harm to Yote or any other of the unwilling participants at
FC will have to deal with me as well. I don't tolerate that kind of thing.
I'm not threatning anyone, i'm just stating that I'll stick up for them if
necissery (Tygger and Spike can take care of themselfs) I didn't like what
was said or shown, as it is i have to explain all of this to my co-workers
now and hope that i don't get fired and Expeled from WSU. Either way thats
my $0.02 take it as you wish, i was just commenting.

David Lazerous
Lone Red Fox of the Plains


XavierTodd

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Jan 5, 2002, 2:34:34 PM1/5/02
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We all make mistakes...But hurting sumone fur the mistakes they makes is
nots goods. NOPES I do say. In time the whole thing will be as if it never
happend. Lets nots drag it out onto the road and torment it. Nope nopes!

--
--
Xavier Todd Fox
"David Lazerous" <laze...@mail.wsu.edu> wrote in message
news:a16ic9$2eh$1...@raccoon.fur.com...

TygerMoon Foxx

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Jan 6, 2002, 2:06:42 AM1/6/02
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On Fri, 04 Jan 2002 15:56:41 -0800, AJL <grap...@ajlvideo.com> wrote:

>Unless you know them all personally, I wouldn't be too sure about that.
>Rick Castro directed porn videos before this, so it is possible that he
>used some actors (I'm not saying he did... just that it is possible,
>eh?)

I knew most of those interviewed (and several talked to only briefly
or shown in the background) personally. Tyger Cowboy exists. So did
the other couple. Some of the footage that was taken came from the
Orlando furs. My husband, who has been staff at Anthrocon for four
years and has attended FC several times, recognized some of the
footage from a couple of years back. A few other friends also
identified themselves in the background. Another close friend knows
Yote. Don't be bandying accusations about like that.

>You also do not know this is true. You are assuming that it is true
>because it is easier to accept that way.

No, I KNOW it's true. I knew at least two of the people interviewed
and several others who were caught in the background. One friend says
he was told that the guy was just talking to him and the camera was
off. The other says she and her partner were told that the interview
was for a documentary on furry conventions. Two more friends say they
were completely unaware that they were being taped at all and wouldnt'
have given permission for the footage to be used if they had known.
Several of the artists whose pieces were used have also stated they
gave no such permission.

>On what basis do you make that statement? Gut feeling? Have you
>identified all of the cons that were depicted in the documentary? Have
>you cross-referenced their press policies? This kind of statement only
>serves to feed rumors.

Not quite true; there WAS some footage of Anthrocon, but it was very
brief and spliced to a longer segment from elsewhere. It was taken
from the last year the con was held at the Hilton in Valley Forge so
it would have been 1999 AND it would have been before Anthrocon
developed a press policy. If memory serves, it's partially because of
incidents like these that Anthrocon did develop its press policy.

>If you are in a background of a video shot in a public place, you are
>fair game for being caught on video, no matter where you are, no matter
>what you are doing.

Not necessarily....conventions are generally not considered "public"
even though they are held in a semi-public area. The hotels that host
them are, in fact, private property and the convention itself could be
considered "invitation only" since you do have to buy a membership in
order to get in.

>something you would be embarrassed about later, even if it is clipped to
>take it out of context, tough luck.

Nope, that's called libel.

>...yet another reason for using discretion.

Discretion does not mean being afraid to attend what amounts to a
private event because some ass with a camera is running around
obtaining footage without permission.


TygerMoon Foxx

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Woggle

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Jan 8, 2002, 10:57:14 AM1/8/02
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On Sun, 6 Jan 2002 2:06:42 -0500, TygerMoon Foxx wrote
(in message <aatf3uk15ulaqt0vb...@4ax.com>):

>
> Not quite true; there WAS some footage of Anthrocon, but it was very
> brief and spliced to a longer segment from elsewhere. It was taken
> from the last year the con was held at the Hilton in Valley Forge so
> it would have been 1999 AND it would have been before Anthrocon
> developed a press policy. If memory serves, it's partially because of
> incidents like these that Anthrocon did develop its press policy.

If it was AC Valley Forge's last year, that was 2000, I know as it was my
first convention, and I should take a look at this to see if I turn up in the
background anywhere, if anybody wants to do the looking, I believe a photo of
me just before AC2K is still in the photo section of
FurShore(groups.yahoo.com/group/furshore) which I'm no longer a member
of(retired owner).
>
>
> TygerMoon Foxx
>

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